The important difference between air-dried and kiln-dried lumber
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- Опубликовано: 6 май 2019
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feel better. I deleted it ?
don't worry about responding.
@@tbac2432 - Dude, you can't tell people to "settle down" when they don't get your joke, then get all offended when someone makes a little joke in return. You're taking this stuff WAY to seriously!
hahaha...not...:) if I could give you 3 face palm emojis I would. lol
How does ridge carbide compare to forest blades like the woodworker 2 and chop master. I use the forest and love them. They are in the same price range and the factory is local to me which is great for sharpening service.
Hey stumpy nubs, i realise this is a late response to your video, sorry.
I just purchased my first saw mill in february 2022, I intend to build a lot, a mill house, a solar kiln, a shop/barn and ultimately a house. Furniture may follow. What i need now is guideance, there used to be a book published for (or by) the DNR/US forestry department, the information inside was most valuable to a sawyer, pertaining to how to build a kiln, wood species, optimal cuts, kiln times, calculating board foot, how to charge for lumber, Etc. Etc..
When i asked my local DNR forestry office about this book, the reaction was less than helpful. Being told to just google or you tube search the info I may need when needed was not the favoured response I was hoping for. Despite living in northern MN, the information is scarce and those who have the information are afraid to loose business or their job (insert underlying condition of a union mentality)
In short, I have little help or guidance after cutting a tree down. If you know of such a book or web page and are willing to point me in that direction I'd be most grateful. Thank you. Don
"We can make a whole video about acclimating lumber before you use it" Please do. Would love to watch it.
Azuban Kull agreed! I’m looking to start the process of mfg my own lumber.
@@artiet5982 It's a lot of work and any logs smaller than 14" diameter will only yield junk. Be very precise in your stacking and throw a lot of extra weight on top or half your boards will be so badly warped as to be unusable. The process isn't very complicated. Green wood stinks. If you store it in your attached garage, the smell will invade your house. Still, the summer I spent sawing wood on my friend's mill saved me a lot of money (I still have some planks a decade later!) and having furniture that I took from tree to finished product is very satisfying, so go for it.
Agreed! That's the perfect video idea.
Did this ever happen?
@@michaelgavin7621 Don't think so
Just now came across this video. Some good information. Only thing I would add to this would be that, most hardwoods that you'll work with that are dried properly are first cut and air dried for a period of time. Walnut, we cut and stack for up to 18 months to air dry before kiln drying. Oaks, Chestnuts, Cherry, Maple etc are generally air dried for 12 months or so. The target to get them to is < 20% MC before putting them into a kiln. This reduces the instances of case hardening, spider-webbing and allows us to cull out materials that would be a waste of time and money to put into a kiln. Walnut is a special instance in that, air drying allows the tannins to leach out into the sapwood thus converting more of the wood into the darker material that is prized. However, the best method to do this is to steam the walnut first. This process will help convert a much larger percentage of the sapwood to the darker heart wood as well as make the heart wood a much deeper, more chocolaty color rather than its natural brown & purple coloration.
Thanks James! You're doing a great job producing useful content . I, for one, really appreciate what you do!!
Fantastic information !!! I love your videos and your "to the point " quality. Thanks for respecting your audience's time by not dragging out your talking points. I think most presenters would have taken an hour to cover the same material. Forever a fan of your channel.
Hi James I don’t really comment on videos much at all, but I felt compelled to give a big thanks for all the great content you guys produce. I’ve been a follower and fan for quite sometime and it’s great informative videos similar to this one that keep me clicking for more. I love the science and logic behind all it is I do and Stumpy Nubs never disappoints! Keep it coming man and thanks so much for what you guys do
This video is so fantastic!!! I’ve spent forever looking for a video that goes over “drying theory” and you nailed sooooo many of my questions 👍 thanks!
Come for the name, stay for the great lines like "One of the many concepts invented to make woodworking more confusing, like board feet and pre-drilling."
Enjoy your videos. You right about drying times, I cut some chestnut up that was on the ground for 10 months. Took almost five years in a unheated building to get it almost dry enough to use. I finally put it in my motorcycle trailer and heated it with a fan blowing thru to get it dry enough to build a rool top desk. Here in N.C. in my area the wood in our home test 10%. Keep up the great work.
Stumpy Nubs is just another level in the Woodworking community 💯🔥
I use aired dried wood for several projects. I resaw firewood logs, usually various types of oak. I stack them properly and cover with pavers for weight. I paint the ends and write the date on the edge once the paint is dry. Boards are cut to 5/4, quarter sawn when possible and 12 to 18 inches long. I let dry 1 year per inch of width then bring into the garage where they might sit for another 6 months to a year before I decide what I will make.
They may bow and twist a bit but that’s why I cut them to 5/4 to end up planed down to 3/4 or 1/2. I made a jig that I use to take care of the bows and twist on my thickness planer (no $$ or space for a jointer). I make make some beautiful boxes and other small projects, usually to give away.
Really enjoy your videos and appreciate your sense of humor. Thank you for sharing your woodworking knowledge, I have learned so much. Reiner
And note: you CAN absolutely build furniture from undried, green wood. That's how a lot of very durable furniture was made in the past. The difference is that the methods and preparation are almost entirely different, and when you're selecting stock it's much easier if you actually pick the tree itself. A straight oak growing on flat, dry ground, split into wedges will move very little. The same tree planted on a hill has a tremendous amount of tension in it working to keep the trunk from falling downhill, and that will warp the board even after drying.
Look up the work of Peter Follansbee and Jennie Alexander for more.
Thanks James! Great information .
Thanks for the great video James
I am a cabinet/furniture maker for the last 7 years. Also I've been an arborist for the last 5 years. I use both kiln and are dried that I cut. 1. Kiln dried is way easier to Mill. 2. I cut apricot, mountain ash, silver maple, oak, elm , black walnut and more from where I live in Missoula Mt.I sometimes get amazing figured grain patterns from what I cut, and alot of time not. Compared to what I buy from the local lumber supply my wood definitely has a unique look but, it is a pain to Mill. it's super cool looking. I'll cut vaneer and vac bag it to mdf or 4 square kiln dried hardwood. Haven't had a failure yet. Love the videos. Thanks
Just taking a moment to say I really appreciate this video!
Good info, and I love my Ridge Carbide rip blade, thank you for the advice on that long ago.
Hey, all the videos I’ve watched. You’re a straight shooter…..! Thank you sir.
Thanks James, I truly appreciated appreciate useful information.
There is a book I have been meaning to read called "Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way" by Lars Mytting. Don't know how that would relate to air or kiln drying. Thank you for the continued education James.
Great info. We run a Woodmizer. I learned several things watching your video.
"...one of the many concepts invented to make woodworking more confusing - like board feet and pre-drilling." 😂
This is a major help, thank you!
Very well done, easy to understand lesson.
I would like you to do more on this subject for us folks that mill and dry our own lumber.
Discussion of recommended methods to check the m.c. would be great as well.
Many thanks from Oregon!
Thanks for the helpful advice. Starting my first wood working project.
Very informative. Had the info I was looking for and then some. Thank you
I'm doing Wood technology at Nelson Mandela University and this video was informative 😊😊
Decades ago I bought myself a dehumidifier and cabinet. It worked really well except I got lovely lines of woodworm along side the stickers. After that I used a greenhouse fumigater bomb to prevent a recurrence. When I had the space after that I just air dried my timber. To avoid splits when drying the evaporation of moisture off the wood surface must be no faster than the rate of moisture loss across the inside of the timber Here in England it was just a matter of stacking the timber in a barn for a year or more, followed by bringing it into the workshop or the house to acclimatise.
Glad you mentioned the advantages and dis-advantages. These were running in my head while you were speaking about humidity, etc. I have a stack of buggy red oak that will probably go to waste, because I didn't realize that the heat was needed for pests as well as drying. Live and learn.
Wood that has a bunch of worm holes from insects can actually make for very nice projects. The wood just needs a heat treatment to sanitize prior to use. If it's not something you're up for then you could always sell it to someone who is.
@@btarb242 Yes, I will probably get it out , wrap it in black plastic and let the Oklahoma sun heat treat it.
i haven’t engaged in any woodworking since i was in high school but this is fascinating
Great tutorial, it made sense of different points.
Hi James, I've always known about moisture %s but know I understand moisture %s. Cheers, Huw
Thanks for the very useful information.
As a nuclear engineer woodworker, this video scratches an itch I didn’t know I had. Thanks!
So you moonlight as a nuclear engineer? ;)
Very informative.. I’m thinking about converting an old greenhouse I have into a drying shed..
Thanks, James. I understand a little more than I did.
Thanks for the video. I like how you present your videos without a lot of hype and drama. Keep posting (please).
Excellent video, thank you.
I always enjoy your information very knowledgeable thanks great education for me
If you have the space you can often get fresh sawn domestic woods from local sawmills fairly inexpensive, stacking it and letting it dry can save you a lot of money.
One of my older brothers has a supplier that charges a dollar a board foot no mater the species and he rounds down, I was helping my brother with a project and the sawmill owner sold boards that were about 10 feet long as if they were 8 foot long.
I'm the expert woodworker in my family and my brother was disappointed when I told him he really ought to wait at least a year before making a bench top out of the 8/4 hickory he just picked up that had been milled less than a week before.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing !
U forgot about us wood carvers where me myself personally would chose Air dried everytime. Love your channel keep on keeping on
Great video as always, James. thank you!
in a future tools video could you discuss moisture meters? I have seen others discuss the topic and would love to hear your thoughts. I searched and didn't see one on your channel, but if I missed it, just point me to it and I will be on my way.
thanks again.
Depends on where you live. The humidity is low enough where I live we easily get the wood to 8% per inch in less than one year. I have a whole barn full of many different species of wood that I have been using in furniture for decades with no issues.
Lucky you, lol. Humidity around where I live is usually a low of 70%; the past few days it's been 90%+
@@stevebengel1346 yeah same, I made a segmented bowl for my grandparents who live in about 20-30% humidity and the next time I visited them it was full of cracks
Low humidity areas likely have way less available native wood suitable for furniture building.
Spot on info, so important as a woodworker.I’ve worked in the flooring manufacturing business for 20 years and also as a contractor. My hobby is woodworking.At the flooring business I operated several different kinds of kilns and the molder machine that produces the flooring and other components such as staircase and trim casings. Almost all of my first furniture projects cracked or fell apart because I didn’t understand wood movement vs moisture content. Wood can be dried too fast in a kiln,or at different rates causing “ case hardening “ or warping and twisting. I prefer air drying because it’s gentle and consistent. Construction Lumber is never dried very low and is left out in the rain anyways. Moisture meters are affordable now and everyone should own one,even painters and contractors.MOST important is let the wood Acclimate,both in the shop and house. Cheers.
I've been having issues with red pine in the kiln. A lot of the 2x and even 1x material wants to twist and cup. Is there anything in particular that causes this? Being dried too fast or not consistent?
As one who just built my kiln last weekend, I appreciate this video even more now.
Do you have plans on how you built it?
Just watched a bunch of videos.
This was really helpfull... I bought two big pieces of beech wood and when I cut them in table saw, to under 3-4cm, they bend that much that it becomes impossible to cut. I ask few wood workers, but they didn't know why. Now thanks to you, I know why. They seem to be kill dried too quickly... I bought those lumbers from a seller which I usually don't buy from... Thank you very much
well I learned something new today - Thanks!!
Excellent advice 👍
thank you . i did not know that about the lumber
Always great info ... thx for the video
Inexperienced woodworker here, especially with wood. I live in Michigan. 78 pct relative humidity lately. I bought 5/4 cherry wood that had been air dried in a non-climate controlled cabin for 6+ years. The wood measured 12% moisture content. I brought it to my garage and stacked it. I have an electric heater that I set to 40 degrees while I’m working. 4-6 hours on the weekends. I milled a board with a planer to make a keepsake box (10” x 5” x 3” with the top and sides 5/16”) for my granddaughter. I did all the cutting, planing, etc work in my garage, but glue required 50+ degree temp so I brought the wood in and let it sit for a day inside then glued the pieces together. A day later I applied Odie’s Oil. The next morning I noticed the top of the box had curled. I think I should have let the wood acclimate longer to the indoor humidity Level (33%)? Or, the piece of wood might have been too thin? Any suggestions on what could I have done differently? I have a feeling the top would curl up in the house no matter how long I let it acclimate. I can’t store the wood inside before making projects
Board feet and pre drilling lol fricken hilarious
You're kiln me, Smalls! I'll see myself out and get some fresh air now.... 😇😎😀
You should be air dry by now 😁
Great info. Thanks. I’m in florida. I’m wondering if air drying works here. Outdoor RH is rarely below 80% all year. But indoor I only get RH so perhaps I don’t need to dry as much? Maybe 12% could work?
i know im a little snarky but i enjoy your content , keep up the good work :)
Please do more vids on drying your own lumber PLEASE
Always so informational, you my boy blue
Great video, again learned a lot, thank you so much
Very useful information. Thanks much. Clicked "thumbs up" to crush a troll.
The chemistry of wood working.😂
I have a couple of black walnut trees and a pecan tree on my property that are dropping some branches. I'd like to keep some of the wood for small projects. Will see how air drying works out.
How do you moisturize kiln dryer wood to use (12 to 15 percent ) old fashioned hand tool it or semi green tiller a bow....
The graph was interesting, especially at levels of 40-60% humidity.
I live in NE Ohio, and my dehumidifier never stops in the summer (trying to keep humidity near 60%). But now (Feb) it’s 40%. I care about that, because the 3 oak trees that I sawed and stacked in the basement (in 2008) are stuck at 10% moisture content. I gave up waiting to reach 8%. But the graph seems to show that an indoor humidity of 40-50% is consistent with an EMC of 10% or a bit more.
I wondered why walnut turns purple sometimes. Now I know! We used to cut all kinds of stuff from fallen trees in the parks where I worked, and most of the time it would get all kinds of cracks, poplar in particular.
Colorado humidity is between 30-42% with an annual average of 33% which is in line with the graph in this video. I’m on that Hisao Hanafusa train.
Air dried lumber, works better for acoustic musical instruments. If you use kiln dried, the artificial heating literally changes the woods tonal structure. II think you were a bit high on the air dried at 15%, closer to 12%. You're also using thicker boards, then I do.
Love your channel, have learned a lot, many thanks.
Uk outside drying gets you no lower than 18-20%. I’ve 14 year old Cherry which is shed dried to 11%. Wood will only dry externally to your local emc value.
Jokes on you, Stumpy! I do dry my lumber in my living room!
I have aired dried my milled oak in mesquite outside. It does well in my environment (southern Arizona). 🤣🤣🤣
I have a dehumided basement that has been drying some rounds and small logs up to 8 inch diameter and 24 inches long. The wood is black Walnut from a tree I cut down a year and a half ago. I guess my question is how good of an environment is this for drying. Will the wood reach 6-8 percent? Are all the moisture checkers the same?
I’m interested in building solar kiln. New territory to me so I know I got a lot of research to do, but any recommendations on reputable resources? Forums have given me a good dozen different opinions on best methods. Thanks for all the videos!
Unless you live in arizona where the RH is 5% (except monsoon season), I air dry all my mesquite. Typically 11 months for a 6/4 cut, 9 months for a 5/4 cut. I will admit though, it doesn't kill off the boring worms often found in the sap wood areas. But thats OK because I like the trails they leave behind when filled with black epoxy. Great video though.
Is acclimating lumber a good practice? And if I keep my lumber in my garage in Phoenix too long (how long is too long?), will it become too brittle? So, I shouldn't stock lumber? I just started this... Hobby? Anyway, I've noticed that some of the lumber I get from my box store is heavier that other cuts of the same dimension and feel cool to the touch. I assume those are higher moisture content. I've also discovered that boards I bought a few weeks ago, now feel lighter and none of them seem to be bent or twisted at all. Is drying a straightening process, too? Or, is it just as likely to twist while sitting in my garage?
Master Nubs, you may have done this before but I am going to ask anyway. Have you done a video on hand planers, different brand models and tasks they perform. This would be very valuable for anyone starting woodworking.
first time on this channel and I thought you had guns behind you🤣🤣🤣
I love your videos, :) I would love to see a video about how to properly air dry lumber, I imagine many of your viewers are amateurs like me, and many of us cannot afford to buy kiln dried wood especially since we don't make things for profit but out of passion. I am passionate about woodturning especially, and it can be very frustrating to spend time and money on a piece that will crack because of inadequate understanding about moisture content and drying speed ..
stringmanipulator Whenever we air dry larger slabs or wood boards, I put plastic over over the ends. It’s amazing how much that has cut down twisting/bowing/splitting. Moisture escapes out of the end grain way faster than the other sections of the board. By slowing it down, we’ve eliminated many of our air-drying related problems.
I have not done well with air-dried but I also hate to leave what I think might be a useable piece of wood on the ground. I use my air-dried for craft and/or toy projects. Furniture or construction... kiln dried.
How can you know at what temp and how fast and slow you should dry the wood in a kiln.
I'm getting my kiln slowly up to 150f, and a week to week in a half it is usually dry. But I get a lot of wrapped boards
I stove dried a 12x24x 1 1/2 oak slab in anoven at 217 for an hour then left in over night. :)
I used to work with an old timer that would say "Kill-dried? Yeah, killed in Arkansas and dried on I-55!"
I tend to air dry to about 20-24 percent then finish it in the kiln to about 5 then aclimate it in the shop it gives me good results
Could you recommend a good book or video on the proper steps to go from freshly cut log with bark on it all the way to air dried lumber ready to be used in a project?
I would like to see that also
what % moisture content would be ideal for interior framing. For example, interior bedroom walls.
But, how do you measure the moisture content of wood? I mean, I know there is a gizmo I can buy that will give me a number, but I need to know how it works (and how I could mess up the measurement) before I can trust the number.
have you ever used alder? we have lots of alder & willow on our uk property, we were hoping to mill it for a worksho floor
Another good video on your behalf thank you. So here is a good question - How much moisture is kiln dried wood going to reabsorb in an area like where we live in Florida where we are very often in high humidity?
Haven't noticed much change here in NC, but admittedly we have less humidity year round than FL.
I think the important thing is to let the lumber acclimate for a few weeks - no matter where it comes from.
Even then I always let in stabilize for a few days after re-sawing or any major operation before assembly, both for stress relief if any and if it might have been case hardened.
As described in "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley the water content of wood -- even kiln dried -- will continue to follow the relative humidity of the environment in which it is stored (I'm REALLY paraphrasing here). Basically, take a snapshot of the graph James displayed; wood will vary in moisture content at a rate similar to that graph. I say similar because absorption rates vary by species: something you can go and look up if you need more accurate specifics.
so we can use the lumbers that are under 8%. I usually buy lumbers from HD and cut it in proper size that I need and then I bring em to my living room or office to make em dry enough for my projects. right thing to do?
im forced to work in an effective outdoor environment - little protection from atmospheric temperature and moisture changes. Does anyone have recommendations how to bring a finished piece of furniture into the house to minimise bend/warp/crack?
wow.. from now on i will call you mr. wood google hehe you help us a lot, ppl should watch your video before they do something with wood ..
thanks for making this channel
I hear what you are saying... I'll go tell my wife that I need to put some drying racks in our living room.
"Understanding Wood" 2000. It seems like I have been buying and giving away copies of that book since before 2000.
Yup. Brilliant resource.
Hi can u recommend a good moisture meter?
Does it make a difference if the wood is planed while drying
Steaming walnut is what changes the color not the kiln process.
Any thoughts on a solar kiln? I am about to build one and try it out on some pine I milked off my land that has been air drying for about 10 months now.
They can be very effective if you do it right. There are whole forums about it online.
The title picture for this video had to be taken at Lowes home of the straight board that warps when you get it home.
Hi James. Great vid. So when you plane down one face of a kiln dried board and it warps, is that not still a moisture problem? Looking to buy a thicknesser (using the UK meaning of the word - think you term it a planer thicknesser?), but I want to avoid the wood warping because I exposed new wood surfaces by taking off the outer layers. Do I leave the thicknessed wood a little oversized for a couple of days and then run it through the thicknesser again and so creep up on it to get a flat board that stays flat ?
There is always moisture in the wood. When you plane just one side, you expose damper wood on that side which leads to warping. Plane evenly on both sides... If you're working with rough boards, joint and plane them down to near the finished thickness, then let them sit overnight to adapt to all that material you removed and the moist fibers you exposed. You can remove any minor warping that occurs overnight when you finish the milling the next day... Cut your joinery as soon as the boards are milled. If you let them sit another day or two, they may not be flat anymore. If you won't be able to cut your joinery right away, wait to do that final milling until just before you can cut the joinery. If you run out of time and you didn't finish the joinery, wrap the boards in plastic bags for the night.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on kiln-dried and air-dried lumber. It raises a question for me. I currently buy all my lumber, which is kiln-dried. I keep it in the garage, which is attached to the house (opens into the basement) and is subject to the wild fluctuations in climate. I live in the upper midwest, where we normally see freezing winters with low relative humidity to humid summers well into the upper 80's and low 90s. So is it okay to keep my lumber in the garage, or should I bring it into my basement? Thanks, and any community responses are also greatly appreciated.
Garage storage is fine. Just bring it inside to acclimate a few days before you use it.
@@StumpyNubs I forgot to mention that my garage is also my makeshift shop; that is, I do all of my cutting and shaping out there. I assume you would suggest the same thing? Thanks!
Suggestions on drying olive wood?