"The negativity bias, also known as the negativity effect, is a cognitive bias that, even when positive or neutral things of equal intensity occur, things of a more negative nature (e.g. unpleasant thoughts, emotions, or social interactions; harmful/traumatic events) have a greater effect on one's psychological state and processes than neutral or positive things. In other words, something very positive will generally have less of an impact on a person's behavior and cognition than something equally emotional but negative."
I don't know what the stats say, but yesterday I played 3 games in a row into ranged top and boy did I not want to queue up for a 4th anytime this millenium
I took a look at the stats recently. There is no single ranged top that has a really high pickrate(high winrates, though). But if you add up their pickrates - and really, they are all exactly the same champion in toplane - you get between 20-25%+ pickrate(depending on elo and not counting aurora). And that is quite high. I also looked at other roles and at off-role champs in those roles. Mages in botlane make up a grand total of less than 5%. Bruisers/Tanks in midlane are at less than 10%(despite irelia and galio both being pretty popular midlane and galio really doesnt have another lane). One in 10 games and one in 20 games is a LOT more tolerable than one in 4 games. Its especially egregious as most ranged champs play exactly the same toplane. And yeah, it is really unfun. You know what I suspect keeps the pickrates of those ranged champions down? Its cause most toplaners do not want to play ranged champs. THat's not what they go toplane for. And additionally, ranged champs toplane do not perform well if you dont have a decent grasp on toplane matchups. And as I suspect that non-toplaners predominantly play ranged top to cheese it out, they tend to fall flat on their face cause they have no idea what toplaners do.
Probability and statistics are a complicated matter. A cloak of agility gives you 15% crit chance bonus but *technically* its still possible to hit 4 crits in a row with it. I say this not to debate your point or whatever, just to introduce a bit of nuance to the discussion and sure as shit wont *blame* you for not wanting to play another game because you should spend your time on things that feel rewarding and thus make feel good in general
@@snekky3415 jezus fckn christ. What did you just say? If you are the melee champ player and ranged champs are 20-25% PR it means that there is for you a 40-50% chance to face a ranged champ since you make up for 100% of melee champs picked top lane on one of the teams. Holy shit. From where are you all. What the hell is your education system.
@@snekky3415 It is not 10-12.5%. Just halving the percentage doesnt make sense, that's not how the statistic works. If 25% of players play ranged top, the chance of you (the non-ranged top player) meeting a ranged top is still almost 25%.
I think the core problem is that Dorans Shield / Second wind specifically works vs mages because they have long cooldowns. ADCs can output constant attacks if they are in range to nullify the regen and put people in kill range. My change would be to make the shield reduce all hits taken by an amount (up to balance team) and make second wind do something similar allowing mages to eventually force people out of lane because their spells do more damage than attacks and reduce the kill threat of ADCs. My reasoning for this idea is that mages shouldn't just run into a position of the opponent is on 20% hp and regening more than you can output and ADCs shouldn't just bypass this early game barrier by having constant dps.
thats a way to break bruisers and tanks. look at guardian horn in aram. that things makes you all but immortal, and does the exact thing you are asking for.
@@einjharrelraca Yeah, Im always surprised at the sheer number the item pulls. Regulary blocks a casual 6k+ dmg lol I think its very good for aram - makes melees much more playable.
Pretty sure it's just a very small number of people running into 3-4 ranged in a row and then being very vocal about it because obviously that's unusual. But the thing is that with millions of players, unusual things will happen to a lot of people. Then more people will just parrot that sentiment without experiencing it for themselves, like how for some reason everyone was crying about k'sante despite him being trash for the average player, just because he was very visible in pro and in high mmr streams.
It’s more so about them counterpicking. You don’t see them often if they are picking before you but if you are picking first and you pick melee then almost every time you are having a ranged top picked into you
If that was true they would be in 50% of the games. They are in less than 10% of games all together. That means by in large only 1 in 10 games you will have any ranged top. You are just as likely to have an aatrox as a ranged top laner in your game. Even less if we ignore the new champion syndrome of aurora taking up almost half of all ranged top lane pick rate or even less if we take out jayce and gnar who kinda are top laners.
Taken individually it's easy to say, oh teemo 3% kayle 3%, that's not dominating. But when you add them all up, ranged top laners comes out to 34%. 1/3 of your games are against a ranged top laner. That doesn't even include Rumble gnar; or annoying cheesie stuff like shaco warwick. The progression of top lane is just over 1/3rd of your games will be entirely unenjoyable. If you look at Jayce Gnar kayle vayne and call them top laners who have been there a long time, they're at 20% pickrate before you even start adding in all the new selections like twisted fate, newly buffed Cass, Kennan, ahkshan. Top lane is turning into 50% ranged or cheese. Even when he filters to pro play, it's like he's being intentionally deceitful. Out of the top 10 champions, literally 5 of them are ranged top. 50% of the most picked are ranged top laners. With Rumble gnar kennen making up around 46% of the picks themselves
Tbh, I wouldnt really call rumble a ranged top. He doesnt play like the other ranged tops at all. But yeah, between the rather high prevalence of Ranged Tops and the "cheese" tops that are just unfun(Like WW, Shaco, Briar top etc.), toplane has become really unfun... and that stuff is ON TOP of the horrible counterpick meta toplane has had for a while now.
I feel like when I read comments like this, your perfect version of league is just a 1v1 on aram and both players can only play your favorite champion.
@zerohcrows I feel like when i watch a riot dev talk about something, and say it's literally untrue what the community is saying because they can't see it in the data, I feel like the data is literally a 3rd grade understanding of basic math skills and a calculator. So it's either gross incompetence or blatantly lieing. Either way, that's a unacceptable
@@xiariser-213 you completely dodged the criticism but I'll take the bait ig. 1. not all league players agree with the sentiment that ranged top is taking over. 2. August plays league, it's more than just data. 3. You are just as if not more prone to bias than august. 4. The data is not even close to 3rd grade understanding and the fact that you even say this tells me you have 0 Idea what you're talking about. 5. You have no idea what internal data set riot has and whether it's more or less accurate than API websites. 6. After rereading your concerns, I have a feeling you may not even agree what champs are considered "ranged" lol. All of that to ask you this; Why, when adding up the individual pick rates for a lane, does the entire lane equal >100%? If you can answer this and still think that the pick rate for ranged top is 34%, you are biased af and just need to make one more leap in logic to come to a correct assessment of its prevalence. If you can't answer this, you're stupid and don't deserve to criticize others mathematical abilities. Don't go ChatGPTing the answer either brother.
Watching this a few days late, but going to throw this out there- If you blind pick Garen for example, you are more likely to get a ranged counter matchup. So, if you are a Garen otp you might face a lot of ranged champs in top.
Biggest problem with ranged top is its just non interactive gameplay. Pro games with ranged top against a melee is boring as shit to watch, even worse to play.
i mean. i also find it pretty boring to play against mordekaiser knowing that i can never interact with him ever as a adc, or i just auto lose to his ultimate, which fucking outranges me for some reason. pretty non interactive gameplay, but we let it stay.
I have played toplane for 11 years. But toplane isnt fun anymore, playing vs range tops in 1/3 of my games just sucks, because the games are very onesided and are decided by your jungle, if he ganks, the range top is 0/5 and useless, if he doesnt show up you bleed out cs and exp and slowly lose. I just took my bruisers and tanks to midlane, works like a charm.
welcome to the adc life? we forced them to deal with that EXACT gameplay pattern for the last 6 years. i fail to see why its a problem for top to need to deal with it in 12% of their games.
@tupacshakur5868 no. You get to sit and play permission. Wait for SOMEONE ELSE to fix your problem for you. Adcs have to deal with it all game, yall can deal with it for 15 minutes. Also the range argument doesn't work anymore. Of the 93 "melee" champions in this game 83 of them have tools that out range a rapid fire cannon caitlyn. You have no excuse for struggling to deal with vayne and her darius range.
Everything boils down to: More and more mobility (movespeed) introduced into the game to "outplay montage" mage skillshots. So now we are nerfing mr boots etc because ADC can't be countered with poke anymore. SURPRISED PIKACHU FACE: Why is it an ADC meta when all we do is buffing ADC so they can oneshot Assassins back if they engage. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN? Oh we powercreeped Zed and Akali back into the game again and midlane is a balancing nightmare because of "outplay champions" ???? Lets buff ADC because they can't play the game against roaming assassins. Oh what now assassins are weak and we want to see them in pro play ... BETTER BUFF THEM !!!!
If you add up all the pick rates of the ranged champs, even if they aren't the highest % individually, the sum of all of them together means that one of those could show up in your games probably ~20% of the time (loosely estimated based on u.gg data). Bans and dodges might skew that data to some extent if it's related to how often they show up in lobby vs in game, but I'd guess one in five games having a ranged top is pretty common, and as August put it - there's a higher chance of running into one currently than usual.
i fail to see that as a problem. especially considering we spent 3 years telling botlane "shut up shitter, just get good scrub" when mages did this EXACT THING in botlane, with near identical pick rates, but with WAAAAAAAY more inflated winrates.
@@einjharrelraca Never said it was a problem. Just answering August's question about where the player perspective was coming from, despite individual playrates being low.
40% of top lane is ranged top laners. The collective pickrates of ranged top (excluding urgot) is: 2% Quinn, 1.3% cass, .6% akshan, 4.1% kennen, 4.4% Aurora, 2.4% TF, 2.8% Vayne, 1.3% Teemo, 2.3% Kayle, .8% Heimer, 5.5% gnar, .6% ryze, 1.8% varus, 6.1% jayce, .8% lucian, .8% zeri, 2.2% smolder, 2.7% vlad. Data from U.gg Masters+ 14.14. That all added up is 42.7%
@@wedwastaken2362 except if you account for REAL PICKS ONLY, not the 0.03% of people who tried top lane zyra once, that number falls to well under 16%. and if we exclude the champion who currently has new toy syndrome, that number falls to 12.16%. 12.16% across SIX champions. a whooping 2% pickrate each. woooooo. and mages did not only make up for 4% at the time, they were well over 10% when everyone was screaming that adcs need to shut up and get good, why should we not do the exact same thing to you all crying about 2% pickrate champions? This isnt as fun when the rabbit has the gun is it? :D
@@gothammetal5811 >1/5 actually closer to 1/6. And if we discount aurora, it's 1/8. Man yall LOVE exaggerating the shit out of these numbers. 80% winrate vayne top is the funniest so far. XD
@@einjharrelraca "40% of top lane is ranged top laners. The collective pickrates of ranged top (excluding urgot) is: 2% Quinn, 1.3% cass, .6% akshan, 4.1% kennen, 4.4% Aurora, 2.4% TF, 2.8% Vayne, 1.3% Teemo, 2.3% Kayle, .8% Heimer, 5.5% gnar, .6% ryze, 1.8% varus, 6.1% jayce, .8% lucian, .8% zeri, 2.2% smolder, 2.7% vlad. Data from U.gg Masters+ 14.14. That all added up is 42.7%"
@@bohomazdesign725 cool. And I can use that exact same site to show mages botlane are picked in 49% of games. I can also use that site to show that bruisers are in 44% of mid lane games. Shit if i use your methods I can make enchanters have a 38% presence in jungle. Almost like just adding up every percentage of every champion pick in every game gets you ALOT of small numbers thst add up. So how about you show us the real numbers by excluding every pick with under a 2% pickrate. Seeing as adcs need to shut up and stop crying about mages with their 2% pickrates.
@@bohomazdesign725 bro. using YOUR METHODS, mages are dominating bot just as hard as ranged is top. and YOU YOUSELF said mages bot aren't prevalent. which is it? you dont get both. DO WE NEED TO GUT ENCHANTERS JUNGLE??????? using your methods and the goal posts YOU set, enchanter jungle must be turbo giga uber broken right?
Playing against ranged top laners just feels miserable. I think it goes beyond a matter of how popular they are or how good they are. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the data said that traditional melee top laners are both more popular and more likely to win. But it just feels really fucking bad. I don't wanna see a fucking top lane Vayne, ever. It's such a dumb, un-interactive lane. I get it that you can't stop people from picking whatever they want and take it to whichever lane they want, but I think that ranged top laners should be balanced to be significantly worse than melee top laners. They're still going to be frustrating but I'm gonna see less ranged top laners as a result so that's good enough for me.
So does this apply to everyone else too? Or just top lane? Because every adc in existance will tell you that assassins and bruisers are some of the most cancerous shit possible to play into.
I think the ranged top thing bothers some players because top lane players rarely learned ranged picks and rarely learned how to play against ranged picks for a long time. In most games, the people who just permanently pick like Aatrox, Darius, Garen, Sett, are getting counter picked with ranged top laners more often than they used to. It doesn't happen every game and the picks have a reality low pick rate because a lot of top laners aren't actually very good at ranged champs, but those that are always pull out the counter pick if they can. As example I often play Volibear top lane, but always counter pick Vayne into Darius and Sett because it's so free and I have a lot of experience from playing Vayne bot lane for years.
I play all of those and I can never get to play anyone but Aatrox or Ornn since my other champions can't compete with ranged characters so out of the 10 champions i play top i can pick 2 of them. No shit it's fucking boring you can't just learn to beat vayne as Sett Garen Darius you just accept you are not going to have fun and are trapped for 30 minutes
@@gorgistanojevik3196 i mean. we force adcs to have that play pattern every game. why is it a problem for top lane to have to deal with it in 2% of theirs? XD
Ye u don’t play against ranged much. But when u do they get a free lane and win by default. Shudnt be the case. You should never ever ever win lane by locking in X class.
It's "win lane lose game" though, if you just chill and play to your outs. Half the battle of ranged top is not tilting and changing your mentality , if you keep a cool head and help your team, you eventually are way more useful. If you just wanna permafight and never leave top, yeah, you're gonna feel like shit.
@@Bladius_this is the problem there shouldn’t be a class that 100% suppresses an entire role early game period it’s not good for games and it’s horrible for peoples mentality to keep playing your game most people I know who quit the game did so for this very reason…
August needs to stop making comments about top lane when he doesn’t play it. Soooooo disconnected when (20% of games). He checks all of the data apparently and still doesn’t see it? Mhm
try 14% across 6 champions. you know. about 2% each....... the same pickrate as the mages bot everyone told adcs to "stop crying about" while they dominated the lane. XD
The main issue here is bruisers can't play the game. Only solace you had was the 1v1 top lane against a tank or other bruiser for the most part to get ahead so you can live through mid and late game. When range come top you have nothing and all you can hope for is your jungler camps your lane until you get ahead. Either you make bruiser as a whole more tanky or get rid of range top doing neither you run the risk of the new meta being 3 ranged. Me personally I dodge agasint ranged tops because its not fun to play that way, I play league for fun. I play top for the 1v1. If i can engage and have to wait on my jungler. I simply dont play. Dont desgins champs for a lane and to be played a certian way then show me data when i tell you, people are abusing your conscious game design
"the main issue here is bruisers cant play the game." funny. when adcs had this EXACT COMPLAINT, about champions with near identical pickrates and 54-58% proveable winrates, everyone told them to "shut up, quit crying, get good shitter and step on a lego before deleting system 32 irl". yet now you top laners want to sympathy because vayne has a 2% pickrate in top lane? Any reason we shouldn't give you all the exact same response you gave adcs?
@@einjharrelraca It's because you bullshit your way into being OP and you got it finally. You bitch about supports being bad when they don't play well, bitch about junglers when they don't camp, bitch about mid laners who don't roam meanwhile top has slowly but surely been getting more and more isolated and useless since S12. When ADC was "weak" you could still contribute a ton if your teammates played well around you but in no fucking way can you even play bruisers since you don't contribute literally anything. Bruisers were at their peak in S11-S12 but they never went and ruined other lanes meanwhile the whole of ADCs are being played in 3 roles and being OP in every single one of them Now we start to bullshit our way into OP and I agree, we should get the same treatment you did because we are all sons of bitches in this game
@@shinkii5819 that used to be the case. except the VAST majority of melees have tools that outrange vayne/quinn/whayever other range top you guys are complaining about. lets use mordekaiser as an example. you know. the juggernaut. the immobile SHORT RANGE super bruiser? yeah his point and click r has 650 range, the same as caitlyn. The range excuse is gone.
@@einjharrelraca You clearly never played top😂 we have a lack of mobility(due to the way we are designed),every successful range top lane champ has an ability to stops or delays gap close. So you just get infinitely kited
Rioter talks about creativity in the case of ranked top laners after patching all creativity out of the rune system and small shards oversimplified aswell... hyprocracy Level over 9000 Double jungle , lane swap meta is creativity aswell but wont last 2 weakside before getting nerfed into the ground.
Maybe if people considtently complain about something for years even when its not strong on paper... Its just not fun to play against and should be removed not because of balance but because of enjoyment
@@SebastianKhyleLBaja only once you play as a squishy immobile adc into 3 assassins. Seeing as we want to use "it isn't fun to play against" as a metric now.
His point isn't that it's unfun, it's that statistically the claims that toplane is ranged only isn't true. What would him playing against ranged top do? I play melee toplane, btw. Genuine question.
@@einjharrelraca Ranged tops are more prevalent and make the game more uninteractive than assassins. As an assassin at least you need to land skill shots and position well. Also please send me a link to a game where you have seen 3 assassins in 1 team, I barely see 2 nowadays
@gorgistanojevik3196 akali top, take your pick mid, and kha jungle are litteraly all in the meta right now brotato. And no ranged top is not less interactive than "I kill someone instantly with as little counterplay as is physically possible."
@@einjharrelraca you are out of your mind brother hahaha did you really say Akali top, the only good asssassin champion in jungle and mid where they can't win lane nor roam? The literal point of an assassin is to kill a squishy champion they are designed for it (not to mention you have to kill through bloodthirster 400 shield, immortal shieldbow 700 and barrier 300 and through sustain so yeah good luck) so your and your team's job is to stick together and peel your op ADC role. Maybe not you but your team has to interact with the champion to stop them whereas ranged tops are picked to win the laning phase and your only option is to not interact and wait for your jungler every 4 minutes. Please give me what you're drinking it looks good
of the top 20 most picked top laners 15 of them are bruisers. of those 15 bruisers only 2 of them have winrates any meaningful amounts below 50%. seems like they are doing fine to me, and yall are just crying.
@@einjharrelraca a number of win rate can only tell how much a champion win, a number of pick rate can only tell ho much a champion is picked, but none of those numbers can tell how it feels to play the role in between when the champion is picked and when is determined if it win or not, a role can be ok in numbers but that doesnt mesn is fun play it ingame, belive it or not, the goal for august and many if not all other devs is make you have fun while playing, not have the perfects numbers of pick or winrate
@@WildspeakerYT how the role "feels" is not accounted for in game balance means. The entire adc role felt like dogshit for 6 full years, and everyone screamed they all need to "shut up, step on a lego, delete system 32 irl and finnish hospital" every time they mentioned how their role feels like dogshit to play, and screamed about how "your winrates and pickrate are fine!!!!!!". I cannot stress this enough, this was a full SIX YEAR TIME FRAME. Why should this not be treated the same way, when its a smaller issue?
I think august is missing a crucial point problem isn't pick rate, problem is win rate ranged top never receive any nerfs, only buffs, the bush changes only benefitted ranged top, and no top laner wants to play against a vayne quinn or tf, degenerate gameplay and every time there's a viable ranged top, it's awful to play against people are sick of adc dominance in every lane that's all
@@tangace1602 except the winrate aren't high either. They all hover 48-52%, the standard average. Also, when adcs say bruiser and assassins FEEL like shit to play against, you all scream at them "shut up and get good shitter!" Why should the same not be done to top lanes saying vayne feels bad to play against?
But what win rate are you talking about? You look at emerald+ games and the only ranged top with a problematic winrate is Cassiopeia at 53%, who isn't even an ADC lol Every other adc is sitting comfortably at 49-51% winrates alongside all other "normal" top laners
@@Unending_Joy so cassio is broken in 2 roles, not getting nerfed, soon boots nerf, we all know how this is gonna go. vayne is in like top 5 best wr top lane depending on region and elo, even teemo who's always been a troll pick has become strong over the last year, not so long ago we had tf top with 7+% pickrate btw, and over the last 3 years there's always been a strong meta ranged top that's impossible to play against, be it vayne varus quinn tf or whoever else, and most of the time, there's at least 5 jungle champions who are in top 10 of either pick/ban rate or winrate in top lane, there are patch with 2 actual top laners in the top 10 champions by winrate (with at least 1-2% pickrate) just the fact that vayne has higher pickrate in high elo than fiora and irelia is crazy
It's not about pickrates, its about the feeling of playing against ranged toplaners. There's a 20% pick rate for all ranged toplaners combined. There is fundamentally nothing 60% of the toplane roster can do against ranged toplaners. It's a cheese pick that sucks the life out of the game for your lane opponent but makes the game harder for your teamates. But Nah, the DATA..dun..dun.duuuuun.
What's your proposed solution? Implementing role restrictions on champions? Removing all ranged champions? Everything and anything you can do in this game, from the draft, to selecting what to play for, where to position, etc. can both make the game easier or harder for you or your teammates; So is this only a problem because it feels bad? Lots of stuff in this game feels bad but is necessary for complexity and balance, like invades as a jungler or ganks in general. I also disagree that fundamentally there's nothing you can do against ranged tops. Otherwise these champions would have astronomical normalized lane wine rates, which they don't. I agree that the sentiment of playing against ranged tops is awful. It does feel bad. But many of the solutions for this would force the game to lose nuance in favor of protecting people's emotions. The game would be more fun, but less interesting. If that's the kind of game you prefer, that's totally fine, but I prefer some bad games with that in tact.
20% pickrate between 6 champions. Or 1 wholesome bruiser holding 12% all to himself. Naaaaah I'm sure the 2% pickrate champ is just busted. XD Also it's not fun to play against? Welcome to the life of botlane. Bruisers and assassins sure as shit aren't fun to play against as a squishy immobile, yet yall just scream at them to shut up and stop crying. Any reason we shouldn't do the same back now that the shoe is on the other foot?
@@Sam-sw9cr The game constantly is balanced around emotions Zed, Illaoi and Samira for example are intentionally kept weak. This is to preserve the feeling of enjoyment of the game. The only reason ranged toplaners don't win harder is simply a skill issue. Ranged toplaners make mistakes which allow bruisers to sometimes play against. Note that lane winrates and game winrates are very different things.
@@einjharrelraca Aatrox is picked alot yet he's not overpowered. I'm. It even an Aatrox main but he's picked for consistency in a very counter pick oriented role. When did pick rate become the determinent factor for how good characters are? Assasins are unfair, yes. But how in the world are bruisers unfair for ranged characters. They all have little to no mobility, it's just kiting.
Its quite litteraly just top laners being hypocrites and crying. Its what they always do, its all theyve done since i started the game back in s4, they will never be happy until melees are the only champions that exist in the game. I mean, need I remind you, we are talking about a group of people who cried SO HARD about their lane, that riot reworked the entire map for them, and made a new objective without taking another away, just for them..... TWICE XD
people who play ranged top are all losers that only like bullying immobile tanks and bruisers, too pisslow to play vs even matched ranged ADCs bot and scary engage supports and too chicken to lane vs a midlane assassin. as a jungle main whenever i see an opponent pick ranged top I make it my mission in life to make his game hell.
Ironic that these comments are saying august doesnt play top to know what its like, mf you don't know what being on the balancing team is like lmao. Stay in your lane, let them steer the ship, if you dont like the direction just take a break.
Nerf roaming assassins and fighters into non existence and ADC do not need to be buffed into unstoppable lane monsters. Riot already said they need to do that. But what are they actually doing? Buffing Zed and Akali to force them into Pro and High MMR. Making the problem worse and worse. I know everybody loves high APM assassin gameplay but it is the death of the game because league is not a fighting game and can't be one it is a modderfrickin Real Time Strategy game!
Bro brought up league being an rts. You know what's really funny about that? The most popular RTS in the industry, Starcraft 2 is very high APM to compete at a high level.
Assassins are getting buffed (early game focused ones at that) so they can actually fucking interact with their opponent and stop playing like scalers except they’re worse than the other scaling picks, making them redundant. You have zero clue what you’re talking about with assassins.
@@cotilianysuna9689 Except they are scalers and should not even have the possibility to lane. And because they can we have this balancing mess. Riot August and Phreak both said it a few times. Riot WANT to see fighters in pro play because it is entertaining to watch. But to play against them is the absolute bane of the existence. Either you simplify the game or it will become more toxic and toxic because frustration is building up because of the boosted champion balance and mobility creep.
@@amilo5Assassins were designed to be bloody and strong in lane/early game. Phreak said as much, the balance team as a whole agree with that stance. The only reason they got turned into scalers is because bad players complained about getting bodied by them in lane, so they in turn got their early games murdered and got absurd scalings+AH items to FORCE them into scaling, but they still do not stack up to adc or mage scaling so they suck at it and thus assassins have no real place in the game. Making them the dominant snowball early game class gives them their identity back. Once more, you are completely clueless about assassins.
@@cotilianysuna9689 And snowballing is very bad for us players and very good for Riots financial team. They are deceiving. And assassins are not meant to lane against poke and tanks. So what did rRiot do? Introducing lethality so assassins can fight tanks. No a class should not have 0 counters. Everyone that knows the game well made a documentary on why assassins have no counterplay and why this is the greatest defeat for league gameplay.
the constant talking down to the audience and referring to "the data" ad nauseom especially when the problem is more emotional than imperical, is what turns me off from these riot developers. they are all completely blind grasping for straws and then when youre looking for an actual nuanced reply they just shove "the data" in your face
I mean, August is not wrong. The problem is perception of strenght of ranged rather than real data. And by all means, they're happy with how diverse toplane has become in recent times. Thank god they're not listening to people like you.
you legit just have a weak mental. If your emotional stability is ruined by 1 archetype of character played in a 1 specific lane, then dodge or toughen up. People are always going to pick characters that don't "belong" in certain lanes and devs cant ban them systematically from playing that game without encroaching on player freedom. Complain does not help you climb and now you know they aren't going to change the system. Either keep complaining or adapt and climb. You are the problem not the game. You have mental block then blame the game ???
@@Timeforspas12 If ranged characters are both perceived to be strong and make up a supermajority of the meta... then theyre just strong. When August talks about data he is also disingenuous to some degree. A challenger game with 3 adcs is miles different than even a gold match with the same number-- but in terms of data they are virtually identical
@@bspoken3973 He literally spent the entire time trying to understand the person's frustrations in contrast with empirical evidence. He even agreed that ranged toplaners can be frustrating. Explain how the that equates to talking down? Do you want him to just say, "you're right" to the playerbase whenever they're angry about something?
i really wanna hear his reasoning behind tristana not getting nerfed for so long (trist mid was even more broken w old hullbreaker). did they just assume hullbreaker changes will nerf trist(even then idr her getting balanced during old hullbreaker)? sometimes it feels like the balance team doesnt play the game and just looks at numbers.
@@chives12351mb i watched to half way at 5am. point still stands that the balance team doesnt play the game because hullbreaker trist wasnt ‘catching on.’ its an obnoxious pick and anyone whose played as or against that can see it straight away. he mentioned a ‘couple patches’ but its been like a year.
@@chives12351but then i also feel like thats a bit bs because lee mid with e max during spell hydra was busted but no one really thought of it and yet they nerfed his e before spellhydra removal. this one is probably more of a coincidence
"The negativity bias, also known as the negativity effect, is a cognitive bias that, even when positive or neutral things of equal intensity occur, things of a more negative nature (e.g. unpleasant thoughts, emotions, or social interactions; harmful/traumatic events) have a greater effect on one's psychological state and processes than neutral or positive things. In other words, something very positive will generally have less of an impact on a person's behavior and cognition than something equally emotional but negative."
Fake. There is nothing neutral or positive in this game. Your argument falls apart.
damn this guy said your argument fell apart so I guess your argument fell apart
I don't know what the stats say, but yesterday I played 3 games in a row into ranged top and boy did I not want to queue up for a 4th anytime this millenium
I took a look at the stats recently. There is no single ranged top that has a really high pickrate(high winrates, though).
But if you add up their pickrates - and really, they are all exactly the same champion in toplane - you get between 20-25%+ pickrate(depending on elo and not counting aurora).
And that is quite high. I also looked at other roles and at off-role champs in those roles. Mages in botlane make up a grand total of less than 5%. Bruisers/Tanks in midlane are at less than 10%(despite irelia and galio both being pretty popular midlane and galio really doesnt have another lane).
One in 10 games and one in 20 games is a LOT more tolerable than one in 4 games. Its especially egregious as most ranged champs play exactly the same toplane.
And yeah, it is really unfun. You know what I suspect keeps the pickrates of those ranged champions down? Its cause most toplaners do not want to play ranged champs. THat's not what they go toplane for. And additionally, ranged champs toplane do not perform well if you dont have a decent grasp on toplane matchups. And as I suspect that non-toplaners predominantly play ranged top to cheese it out, they tend to fall flat on their face cause they have no idea what toplaners do.
@@TheSorrowfulAngela 10 - 12.5% chance of meeting a ranged top is tolerable
Probability and statistics are a complicated matter. A cloak of agility gives you 15% crit chance bonus but *technically* its still possible to hit 4 crits in a row with it.
I say this not to debate your point or whatever, just to introduce a bit of nuance to the discussion and sure as shit wont *blame* you for not wanting to play another game because you should spend your time on things that feel rewarding and thus make feel good in general
@@snekky3415 jezus fckn christ. What did you just say?
If you are the melee champ player and ranged champs are 20-25% PR it means that there is for you a 40-50% chance to face a ranged champ since you make up for 100% of melee champs picked top lane on one of the teams.
Holy shit. From where are you all. What the hell is your education system.
@@snekky3415 It is not 10-12.5%. Just halving the percentage doesnt make sense, that's not how the statistic works.
If 25% of players play ranged top, the chance of you (the non-ranged top player) meeting a ranged top is still almost 25%.
I think the core problem is that Dorans Shield / Second wind specifically works vs mages because they have long cooldowns. ADCs can output constant attacks if they are in range to nullify the regen and put people in kill range. My change would be to make the shield reduce all hits taken by an amount (up to balance team) and make second wind do something similar allowing mages to eventually force people out of lane because their spells do more damage than attacks and reduce the kill threat of ADCs. My reasoning for this idea is that mages shouldn't just run into a position of the opponent is on 20% hp and regening more than you can output and ADCs shouldn't just bypass this early game barrier by having constant dps.
I like this idea just for dorans shield. Make dorans shield reduce damage by a flat amount and increase health regen a bit, but keep second wind as is
thats a way to break bruisers and tanks. look at guardian horn in aram. that things makes you all but immortal, and does the exact thing you are asking for.
@@einjharrelraca Hey hey, no one knows the secret guardian horn tech in aram lol That item is beyond busted, it feels stronger than many full items.
@@TheSorrowfulAngel right? It's such a batshit insane item. XD
@@einjharrelraca Yeah, Im always surprised at the sheer number the item pulls.
Regulary blocks a casual 6k+ dmg lol I think its very good for aram - makes melees much more playable.
Pretty sure it's just a very small number of people running into 3-4 ranged in a row and then being very vocal about it because obviously that's unusual. But the thing is that with millions of players, unusual things will happen to a lot of people.
Then more people will just parrot that sentiment without experiencing it for themselves, like how for some reason everyone was crying about k'sante despite him being trash for the average player, just because he was very visible in pro and in high mmr streams.
It’s more so about them counterpicking. You don’t see them often if they are picking before you but if you are picking first and you pick melee then almost every time you are having a ranged top picked into you
If that was true they would be in 50% of the games. They are in less than 10% of games all together. That means by in large only 1 in 10 games you will have any ranged top. You are just as likely to have an aatrox as a ranged top laner in your game. Even less if we ignore the new champion syndrome of aurora taking up almost half of all ranged top lane pick rate or even less if we take out jayce and gnar who kinda are top laners.
Taken individually it's easy to say, oh teemo 3% kayle 3%, that's not dominating.
But when you add them all up, ranged top laners comes out to 34%. 1/3 of your games are against a ranged top laner.
That doesn't even include Rumble gnar; or annoying cheesie stuff like shaco warwick.
The progression of top lane is just over 1/3rd of your games will be entirely unenjoyable.
If you look at Jayce Gnar kayle vayne and call them top laners who have been there a long time, they're at 20% pickrate before you even start adding in all the new selections like twisted fate, newly buffed Cass, Kennan, ahkshan.
Top lane is turning into 50% ranged or cheese.
Even when he filters to pro play, it's like he's being intentionally deceitful. Out of the top 10 champions, literally 5 of them are ranged top. 50% of the most picked are ranged top laners. With Rumble gnar kennen making up around 46% of the picks themselves
Tbh, I wouldnt really call rumble a ranged top. He doesnt play like the other ranged tops at all.
But yeah, between the rather high prevalence of Ranged Tops and the "cheese" tops that are just unfun(Like WW, Shaco, Briar top etc.), toplane has become really unfun... and that stuff is ON TOP of the horrible counterpick meta toplane has had for a while now.
I feel like when I read comments like this, your perfect version of league is just a 1v1 on aram and both players can only play your favorite champion.
@zerohcrows I feel like when i watch a riot dev talk about something, and say it's literally untrue what the community is saying because they can't see it in the data, I feel like the data is literally a 3rd grade understanding of basic math skills and a calculator.
So it's either gross incompetence or blatantly lieing. Either way, that's a unacceptable
@@xiariser-213 you completely dodged the criticism but I'll take the bait ig.
1. not all league players agree with the sentiment that ranged top is taking over.
2. August plays league, it's more than just data.
3. You are just as if not more prone to bias than august.
4. The data is not even close to 3rd grade understanding and the fact that you even say this tells me you have 0 Idea what you're talking about.
5. You have no idea what internal data set riot has and whether it's more or less accurate than API websites.
6. After rereading your concerns, I have a feeling you may not even agree what champs are considered "ranged" lol.
All of that to ask you this; Why, when adding up the individual pick rates for a lane, does the entire lane equal >100%? If you can answer this and still think that the pick rate for ranged top is 34%, you are biased af and just need to make one more leap in logic to come to a correct assessment of its prevalence. If you can't answer this, you're stupid and don't deserve to criticize others mathematical abilities. Don't go ChatGPTing the answer either brother.
Watching this a few days late, but going to throw this out there-
If you blind pick Garen for example, you are more likely to get a ranged counter matchup. So, if you are a Garen otp you might face a lot of ranged champs in top.
Biggest problem with ranged top is its just non interactive gameplay. Pro games with ranged top against a melee is boring as shit to watch, even worse to play.
i mean. i also find it pretty boring to play against mordekaiser knowing that i can never interact with him ever as a adc, or i just auto lose to his ultimate, which fucking outranges me for some reason. pretty non interactive gameplay, but we let it stay.
I have played toplane for 11 years. But toplane isnt fun anymore, playing vs range tops in 1/3 of my games just sucks, because the games are very onesided and are decided by your jungle, if he ganks, the range top is 0/5 and useless, if he doesnt show up you bleed out cs and exp and slowly lose. I just took my bruisers and tanks to midlane, works like a charm.
welcome to the adc life? we forced them to deal with that EXACT gameplay pattern for the last 6 years. i fail to see why its a problem for top to need to deal with it in 12% of their games.
@@einjharrelraca exact same? do you play melees on botlane and cant contest waves? Or are you just talking about jungle diff?
@tupacshakur5868 no. You get to sit and play permission. Wait for SOMEONE ELSE to fix your problem for you. Adcs have to deal with it all game, yall can deal with it for 15 minutes.
Also the range argument doesn't work anymore. Of the 93 "melee" champions in this game 83 of them have tools that out range a rapid fire cannon caitlyn.
You have no excuse for struggling to deal with vayne and her darius range.
Everything boils down to: More and more mobility (movespeed) introduced into the game to "outplay montage" mage skillshots. So now we are nerfing mr boots etc because ADC can't be countered with poke anymore. SURPRISED PIKACHU FACE: Why is it an ADC meta when all we do is buffing ADC so they can oneshot Assassins back if they engage. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN? Oh we powercreeped Zed and Akali back into the game again and midlane is a balancing nightmare because of "outplay champions" ???? Lets buff ADC because they can't play the game against roaming assassins. Oh what now assassins are weak and we want to see them in pro play ... BETTER BUFF THEM !!!!
If you add up all the pick rates of the ranged champs, even if they aren't the highest % individually, the sum of all of them together means that one of those could show up in your games probably ~20% of the time (loosely estimated based on u.gg data). Bans and dodges might skew that data to some extent if it's related to how often they show up in lobby vs in game, but I'd guess one in five games having a ranged top is pretty common, and as August put it - there's a higher chance of running into one currently than usual.
i fail to see that as a problem. especially considering we spent 3 years telling botlane "shut up shitter, just get good scrub" when mages did this EXACT THING in botlane, with near identical pick rates, but with WAAAAAAAY more inflated winrates.
@@einjharrelraca Never said it was a problem. Just answering August's question about where the player perspective was coming from, despite individual playrates being low.
40% of top lane is ranged top laners.
The collective pickrates of ranged top (excluding urgot) is: 2% Quinn, 1.3% cass, .6% akshan, 4.1% kennen, 4.4% Aurora, 2.4% TF, 2.8% Vayne, 1.3% Teemo, 2.3% Kayle, .8% Heimer, 5.5% gnar, .6% ryze, 1.8% varus, 6.1% jayce, .8% lucian, .8% zeri, 2.2% smolder, 2.7% vlad. Data from U.gg Masters+ 14.14.
That all added up is 42.7%
@@epicsalsa1337 all I see is a endless lost of champions that aren't even CLOSE to Aatrox at 12%, darius at 9% and sett at 8.6%
The popular champions designed for that role are in fact popular in their respective role what a shocker
@@tiagoalmeida6857 that excuse didn't work for adcs when mages were sitting at 54-58% winrates with 2% pickrates. Why should it work here?
@@einjharrelracabecause mages collectively only make up like 4% in bot lane where in top lane its nearly 20-30%
@@wedwastaken2362 except if you account for REAL PICKS ONLY, not the 0.03% of people who tried top lane zyra once, that number falls to well under 16%. and if we exclude the champion who currently has new toy syndrome, that number falls to 12.16%. 12.16% across SIX champions. a whooping 2% pickrate each. woooooo. and mages did not only make up for 4% at the time, they were well over 10% when everyone was screaming that adcs need to shut up and get good, why should we not do the exact same thing to you all crying about 2% pickrate champions?
This isnt as fun when the rabbit has the gun is it? :D
Its not the individual champs its all the champs combine. You will get a ranged top player in at LEAST 1/3 of your games
@@gothammetal5811 >1/5 actually closer to 1/6. And if we discount aurora, it's 1/8.
Man yall LOVE exaggerating the shit out of these numbers. 80% winrate vayne top is the funniest so far. XD
@@einjharrelraca "40% of top lane is ranged top laners.
The collective pickrates of ranged top (excluding urgot) is: 2% Quinn, 1.3% cass, .6% akshan, 4.1% kennen, 4.4% Aurora, 2.4% TF, 2.8% Vayne, 1.3% Teemo, 2.3% Kayle, .8% Heimer, 5.5% gnar, .6% ryze, 1.8% varus, 6.1% jayce, .8% lucian, .8% zeri, 2.2% smolder, 2.7% vlad. Data from U.gg Masters+ 14.14.
That all added up is 42.7%"
@@bohomazdesign725 cool. And I can use that exact same site to show mages botlane are picked in 49% of games. I can also use that site to show that bruisers are in 44% of mid lane games. Shit if i use your methods I can make enchanters have a 38% presence in jungle. Almost like just adding up every percentage of every champion pick in every game gets you ALOT of small numbers thst add up.
So how about you show us the real numbers by excluding every pick with under a 2% pickrate. Seeing as adcs need to shut up and stop crying about mages with their 2% pickrates.
@@einjharrelraca what xD im sorry, but are you rtrd or something? Legitimate question.
@@bohomazdesign725 bro. using YOUR METHODS, mages are dominating bot just as hard as ranged is top. and YOU YOUSELF said mages bot aren't prevalent. which is it? you dont get both.
DO WE NEED TO GUT ENCHANTERS JUNGLE??????? using your methods and the goal posts YOU set, enchanter jungle must be turbo giga uber broken right?
Imagine getting frustrated by ranged top laners when you could just learn Malphite and collect your free LP
What if they get last pick? What if malphite most likely banned?
As a Quinn/Vayne top player he's perma banned for that reason. When ppl try to counter pick you with Teemo all you need is cleanse/ignite
@@shinkii5819as a ranged top player our main counters are Malphite, Nasus, irelia, Darius, Pantheon, fiora with her W is deadly, Teemo
Aurora wins against malphite tho
@@Slayyyaphine I hope you burn in hell, no offense of course
Playing against ranged top laners just feels miserable. I think it goes beyond a matter of how popular they are or how good they are. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the data said that traditional melee top laners are both more popular and more likely to win. But it just feels really fucking bad. I don't wanna see a fucking top lane Vayne, ever. It's such a dumb, un-interactive lane. I get it that you can't stop people from picking whatever they want and take it to whichever lane they want, but I think that ranged top laners should be balanced to be significantly worse than melee top laners. They're still going to be frustrating but I'm gonna see less ranged top laners as a result so that's good enough for me.
So does this apply to everyone else too? Or just top lane? Because every adc in existance will tell you that assassins and bruisers are some of the most cancerous shit possible to play into.
I think the ranged top thing bothers some players because top lane players rarely learned ranged picks and rarely learned how to play against ranged picks for a long time. In most games, the people who just permanently pick like Aatrox, Darius, Garen, Sett, are getting counter picked with ranged top laners more often than they used to. It doesn't happen every game and the picks have a reality low pick rate because a lot of top laners aren't actually very good at ranged champs, but those that are always pull out the counter pick if they can.
As example I often play Volibear top lane, but always counter pick Vayne into Darius and Sett because it's so free and I have a lot of experience from playing Vayne bot lane for years.
I play all of those and I can never get to play anyone but Aatrox or Ornn since my other champions can't compete with ranged characters so out of the 10 champions i play top i can pick 2 of them. No shit it's fucking boring you can't just learn to beat vayne as Sett Garen Darius you just accept you are not going to have fun and are trapped for 30 minutes
@@gorgistanojevik3196 i mean. we force adcs to have that play pattern every game. why is it a problem for top lane to have to deal with it in 2% of theirs? XD
Didnt they preemptively nerf pyke mid tho?
Ye u don’t play against ranged much. But when u do they get a free lane and win by default. Shudnt be the case. You should never ever ever win lane by locking in X class.
It's "win lane lose game" though, if you just chill and play to your outs.
Half the battle of ranged top is not tilting and changing your mentality , if you keep a cool head and help your team, you eventually are way more useful.
If you just wanna permafight and never leave top, yeah, you're gonna feel like shit.
@@Bladius_this is the problem there shouldn’t be a class that 100% suppresses an entire role early game period it’s not good for games and it’s horrible for peoples mentality to keep playing your game most people I know who quit the game did so for this very reason…
August needs to stop making comments about top lane when he doesn’t play it. Soooooo disconnected when (20% of games). He checks all of the data apparently and still doesn’t see it? Mhm
try 14% across 6 champions. you know. about 2% each....... the same pickrate as the mages bot everyone told adcs to "stop crying about" while they dominated the lane. XD
The main issue here is bruisers can't play the game. Only solace you had was the 1v1 top lane against a tank or other bruiser for the most part to get ahead so you can live through mid and late game. When range come top you have nothing and all you can hope for is your jungler camps your lane until you get ahead. Either you make bruiser as a whole more tanky or get rid of range top doing neither you run the risk of the new meta being 3 ranged. Me personally I dodge agasint ranged tops because its not fun to play that way, I play league for fun. I play top for the 1v1. If i can engage and have to wait on my jungler. I simply dont play. Dont desgins champs for a lane and to be played a certian way then show me data when i tell you, people are abusing your conscious game design
"the main issue here is bruisers cant play the game."
funny. when adcs had this EXACT COMPLAINT, about champions with near identical pickrates and 54-58% proveable winrates, everyone told them to "shut up, quit crying, get good shitter and step on a lego before deleting system 32 irl". yet now you top laners want to sympathy because vayne has a 2% pickrate in top lane?
Any reason we shouldn't give you all the exact same response you gave adcs?
@@einjharrelraca It's because you bullshit your way into being OP and you got it finally. You bitch about supports being bad when they don't play well, bitch about junglers when they don't camp, bitch about mid laners who don't roam meanwhile top has slowly but surely been getting more and more isolated and useless since S12. When ADC was "weak" you could still contribute a ton if your teammates played well around you but in no fucking way can you even play bruisers since you don't contribute literally anything. Bruisers were at their peak in S11-S12 but they never went and ruined other lanes meanwhile the whole of ADCs are being played in 3 roles and being OP in every single one of them
Now we start to bullshit our way into OP and I agree, we should get the same treatment you did because we are all sons of bitches in this game
@@einjharrelraca by playing a ranged champ you have the inherent advantage of being able to do damage to me before I can do damage to you. Simple
@@shinkii5819 that used to be the case. except the VAST majority of melees have tools that outrange vayne/quinn/whayever other range top you guys are complaining about.
lets use mordekaiser as an example. you know. the juggernaut. the immobile SHORT RANGE super bruiser? yeah his point and click r has 650 range, the same as caitlyn. The range excuse is gone.
@@einjharrelraca You clearly never played top😂 we have a lack of mobility(due to the way we are designed),every successful range top lane champ has an ability to stops or delays gap close. So you just get infinitely kited
I mean ok but he goes to pro and it’s literally k’sante then a shit ton of ranger champions? Like gnar, tf, varus, zeri, Jayce ???
Rioter talks about creativity in the case of ranked top laners after patching all creativity out of the rune system and small shards oversimplified aswell... hyprocracy Level over 9000
Double jungle , lane swap meta is creativity aswell but wont last 2 weakside before getting nerfed into the ground.
Maybe if people considtently complain about something for years even when its not strong on paper... Its just not fun to play against and should be removed not because of balance but because of enjoyment
*gestures widely to the entire bruiser and assassin classes*
Are you sure?
I fucking want him to play top lane againts ranged top
@@SebastianKhyleLBaja only once you play as a squishy immobile adc into 3 assassins. Seeing as we want to use "it isn't fun to play against" as a metric now.
His point isn't that it's unfun, it's that statistically the claims that toplane is ranged only isn't true. What would him playing against ranged top do?
I play melee toplane, btw. Genuine question.
@@einjharrelraca Ranged tops are more prevalent and make the game more uninteractive than assassins. As an assassin at least you need to land skill shots and position well. Also please send me a link to a game where you have seen 3 assassins in 1 team, I barely see 2 nowadays
@gorgistanojevik3196 akali top, take your pick mid, and kha jungle are litteraly all in the meta right now brotato.
And no ranged top is not less interactive than "I kill someone instantly with as little counterplay as is physically possible."
@@einjharrelraca you are out of your mind brother hahaha did you really say Akali top, the only good asssassin champion in jungle and mid where they can't win lane nor roam?
The literal point of an assassin is to kill a squishy champion they are designed for it (not to mention you have to kill through bloodthirster 400 shield, immortal shieldbow 700 and barrier 300 and through sustain so yeah good luck) so your and your team's job is to stick together and peel your op ADC role.
Maybe not you but your team has to interact with the champion to stop them whereas ranged tops are picked to win the laning phase and your only option is to not interact and wait for your jungler every 4 minutes.
Please give me what you're drinking it looks good
Every second spent in top vs Vayne feels like 10 seconds. So even if she only has a 2% play rate that equates to about 20%.
SO THAT IS HOW ALL THESE MONGRELS ARE DOING THEIR MATH XD
No August, bruisers cannot play the game rn.
deaths dance buff should help now
of the top 20 most picked top laners 15 of them are bruisers. of those 15 bruisers only 2 of them have winrates any meaningful amounts below 50%. seems like they are doing fine to me, and yall are just crying.
@@einjharrelraca a number of win rate can only tell how much a champion win, a number of pick rate can only tell ho much a champion is picked, but none of those numbers can tell how it feels to play the role in between when the champion is picked and when is determined if it win or not, a role can be ok in numbers but that doesnt mesn is fun play it ingame, belive it or not, the goal for august and many if not all other devs is make you have fun while playing, not have the perfects numbers of pick or winrate
@@WildspeakerYT how the role "feels" is not accounted for in game balance means. The entire adc role felt like dogshit for 6 full years, and everyone screamed they all need to "shut up, step on a lego, delete system 32 irl and finnish hospital" every time they mentioned how their role feels like dogshit to play, and screamed about how "your winrates and pickrate are fine!!!!!!".
I cannot stress this enough, this was a full SIX YEAR TIME FRAME.
Why should this not be treated the same way, when its a smaller issue?
Force this man to play any top lane bruiser against a Vayne or Varus.
only once you play an immobile adc into 3 assassins. seeing as "is it fun to play against" is a metric we should care about now.
All ranks = low elo
I think august is missing a crucial point
problem isn't pick rate, problem is win rate
ranged top never receive any nerfs, only buffs, the bush changes only benefitted ranged top, and no top laner wants to play against a vayne quinn or tf, degenerate gameplay
and every time there's a viable ranged top, it's awful to play against
people are sick of adc dominance in every lane that's all
@@tangace1602 except the winrate aren't high either. They all hover 48-52%, the standard average.
Also, when adcs say bruiser and assassins FEEL like shit to play against, you all scream at them "shut up and get good shitter!" Why should the same not be done to top lanes saying vayne feels bad to play against?
But what win rate are you talking about? You look at emerald+ games and the only ranged top with a problematic winrate is Cassiopeia at 53%, who isn't even an ADC lol
Every other adc is sitting comfortably at 49-51% winrates alongside all other "normal" top laners
@@Unending_Joy so cassio is broken in 2 roles, not getting nerfed, soon boots nerf, we all know how this is gonna go. vayne is in like top 5 best wr top lane depending on region and elo, even teemo who's always been a troll pick has become strong over the last year, not so long ago we had tf top with 7+% pickrate btw, and over the last 3 years there's always been a strong meta ranged top that's impossible to play against, be it vayne varus quinn tf or whoever else, and most of the time, there's at least 5 jungle champions who are in top 10 of either pick/ban rate or winrate in top lane, there are patch with 2 actual top laners in the top 10 champions by winrate (with at least 1-2% pickrate)
just the fact that vayne has higher pickrate in high elo than fiora and irelia is crazy
@@tangace1602"vayne is the top 5 winrate if you cherrypick"
The ranged complainers are just the loudest lmao
It's not about pickrates, its about the feeling of playing against ranged toplaners. There's a 20% pick rate for all ranged toplaners combined.
There is fundamentally nothing 60% of the toplane roster can do against ranged toplaners. It's a cheese pick that sucks the life out of the game for your lane opponent but makes the game harder for your teamates.
But Nah, the DATA..dun..dun.duuuuun.
True
What's your proposed solution? Implementing role restrictions on champions? Removing all ranged champions?
Everything and anything you can do in this game, from the draft, to selecting what to play for, where to position, etc. can both make the game easier or harder for you or your teammates; So is this only a problem because it feels bad? Lots of stuff in this game feels bad but is necessary for complexity and balance, like invades as a jungler or ganks in general. I also disagree that fundamentally there's nothing you can do against ranged tops. Otherwise these champions would have astronomical normalized lane wine rates, which they don't.
I agree that the sentiment of playing against ranged tops is awful. It does feel bad. But many of the solutions for this would force the game to lose nuance in favor of protecting people's emotions. The game would be more fun, but less interesting. If that's the kind of game you prefer, that's totally fine, but I prefer some bad games with that in tact.
20% pickrate between 6 champions. Or 1 wholesome bruiser holding 12% all to himself.
Naaaaah I'm sure the 2% pickrate champ is just busted. XD
Also it's not fun to play against? Welcome to the life of botlane. Bruisers and assassins sure as shit aren't fun to play against as a squishy immobile, yet yall just scream at them to shut up and stop crying. Any reason we shouldn't do the same back now that the shoe is on the other foot?
@@Sam-sw9cr The game constantly is balanced around emotions Zed, Illaoi and Samira for example are intentionally kept weak.
This is to preserve the feeling of enjoyment of the game.
The only reason ranged toplaners don't win harder is simply a skill issue. Ranged toplaners make mistakes which allow bruisers to sometimes play against. Note that lane winrates and game winrates are very different things.
@@einjharrelraca Aatrox is picked alot yet he's not overpowered. I'm. It even an Aatrox main but he's picked for consistency in a very counter pick oriented role.
When did pick rate become the determinent factor for how good characters are?
Assasins are unfair, yes. But how in the world are bruisers unfair for ranged characters. They all have little to no mobility, it's just kiting.
Its quite litteraly just top laners being hypocrites and crying. Its what they always do, its all theyve done since i started the game back in s4, they will never be happy until melees are the only champions that exist in the game.
I mean, need I remind you, we are talking about a group of people who cried SO HARD about their lane, that riot reworked the entire map for them, and made a new objective without taking another away, just for them..... TWICE XD
Found a range top guys
@@shinkii5819 keep crying. It fuels me. Entertains me even.
@@shinkii5819 the guy is crying harder than top players
people who play ranged top are all losers that only like bullying immobile tanks and bruisers, too pisslow to play vs even matched ranged ADCs bot and scary engage supports and too chicken to lane vs a midlane assassin. as a jungle main whenever i see an opponent pick ranged top I make it my mission in life to make his game hell.
@@cokecan6169 mmmmmm. Salt
I mean, how dare that ranged champion use the free 3-6k gold worth of stats you get handed for the lane you pick
Ironic that these comments are saying august doesnt play top to know what its like, mf you don't know what being on the balancing team is like lmao. Stay in your lane, let them steer the ship, if you dont like the direction just take a break.
This guy is delusional. Love that he tries, but he is surrounded by yes men.
Nerf roaming assassins and fighters into non existence and ADC do not need to be buffed into unstoppable lane monsters. Riot already said they need to do that. But what are they actually doing? Buffing Zed and Akali to force them into Pro and High MMR. Making the problem worse and worse. I know everybody loves high APM assassin gameplay but it is the death of the game because league is not a fighting game and can't be one it is a modderfrickin Real Time Strategy game!
Bro brought up league being an rts. You know what's really funny about that? The most popular RTS in the industry, Starcraft 2 is very high APM to compete at a high level.
Assassins are getting buffed (early game focused ones at that) so they can actually fucking interact with their opponent and stop playing like scalers except they’re worse than the other scaling picks, making them redundant. You have zero clue what you’re talking about with assassins.
@@cotilianysuna9689 Except they are scalers and should not even have the possibility to lane. And because they can we have this balancing mess. Riot August and Phreak both said it a few times. Riot WANT to see fighters in pro play because it is entertaining to watch. But to play against them is the absolute bane of the existence. Either you simplify the game or it will become more toxic and toxic because frustration is building up because of the boosted champion balance and mobility creep.
@@amilo5Assassins were designed to be bloody and strong in lane/early game. Phreak said as much, the balance team as a whole agree with that stance. The only reason they got turned into scalers is because bad players complained about getting bodied by them in lane, so they in turn got their early games murdered and got absurd scalings+AH items to FORCE them into scaling, but they still do not stack up to adc or mage scaling so they suck at it and thus assassins have no real place in the game. Making them the dominant snowball early game class gives them their identity back.
Once more, you are completely clueless about assassins.
@@cotilianysuna9689 And snowballing is very bad for us players and very good for Riots financial team. They are deceiving. And assassins are not meant to lane against poke and tanks. So what did rRiot do? Introducing lethality so assassins can fight tanks. No a class should not have 0 counters. Everyone that knows the game well made a documentary on why assassins have no counterplay and why this is the greatest defeat for league gameplay.
the constant talking down to the audience and referring to "the data" ad nauseom especially when the problem is more emotional than imperical, is what turns me off from these riot developers.
they are all completely blind grasping for straws and then when youre looking for an actual nuanced reply they just shove "the data" in your face
I mean, August is not wrong. The problem is perception of strenght of ranged rather than real data. And by all means, they're happy with how diverse toplane has become in recent times. Thank god they're not listening to people like you.
you legit just have a weak mental. If your emotional stability is ruined by 1 archetype of character played in a 1 specific lane, then dodge or toughen up. People are always going to pick characters that don't "belong" in certain lanes and devs cant ban them systematically from playing that game without encroaching on player freedom. Complain does not help you climb and now you know they aren't going to change the system. Either keep complaining or adapt and climb. You are the problem not the game. You have mental block then blame the game ???
@@Timeforspas12 If ranged characters are both perceived to be strong and make up a supermajority of the meta... then theyre just strong.
When August talks about data he is also disingenuous to some degree. A challenger game with 3 adcs is miles different than even a gold match with the same number-- but in terms of data they are virtually identical
@@wisperabbandon8632 where in my reply did i imply i have a problem with the current meta? i dont even play anymore
@@bspoken3973 He literally spent the entire time trying to understand the person's frustrations in contrast with empirical evidence. He even agreed that ranged toplaners can be frustrating. Explain how the that equates to talking down? Do you want him to just say, "you're right" to the playerbase whenever they're angry about something?
i really wanna hear his reasoning behind tristana not getting nerfed for so long (trist mid was even more broken w old hullbreaker). did they just assume hullbreaker changes will nerf trist(even then idr her getting balanced during old hullbreaker)? sometimes it feels like the balance team doesnt play the game and just looks at numbers.
saying ‘yea mb we just forgot’ is probably what we’re gonna get but an obnoxious pick being available for that long brings up a lot of questions
6:12
@@chives12351mb i watched to half way at 5am. point still stands that the balance team doesnt play the game because hullbreaker trist wasnt ‘catching on.’ its an obnoxious pick and anyone whose played as or against that can see it straight away. he mentioned a ‘couple patches’ but its been like a year.
@@chives12351thank you for pointing it out tho.
@@chives12351but then i also feel like thats a bit bs because lee mid with e max during spell hydra was busted but no one really thought of it and yet they nerfed his e before spellhydra removal. this one is probably more of a coincidence