NGK source: It is important to know that in a waste spark ignition system that spark plug electrode wear occurs differently based on the polarity. For plugs in a positive polarity position, more electrode wear will occur at the ground electrode. Plugs in a negative polarity position will experience more wear at the center electrode. As a result of this, vehicles equipped with waste spark ignitions often use double precious metal spark plugs, such as the OE Iridium® or OE Platinum®. These dual precious metal plugs feature either iridium or platinum on the center-firing electrode and platinum on the ground electrode. Because these electrode materials are harder, gap erosion is reduced, allowing for a longer service interval. Since these materials are denser, this will reduce gap erosion, thus leading to a much longer service interval. The use of nickel-alloy or single precious metal spark plugs in vehicles equipped with waste spark ignitions will result in more aggressive gap erosion and shorter spark plug life. Ivan is the Man
It’s possible that you have a clogged fuel filter with that old gas that was in it. Your pressure would have remained high at the tank where you measured it.
Clogged filter would give a very load dependent problem. If it was clogged enough to be starving the engine of fuel at idle if would fall on it's face when loaded.
I have seen plugs get that bad before. Shocking this car didn't misfire or stumble. But wow! I've run into a very similar problem before on a V6 Hyundia before and couldn't figure out why it was doing that. I guess now I'll be checking those plugs next time. Thanks Ivan.
Check voltage on the supply side of the injectors with the engine running (ideally using a scope). If there is a slightly high resistance in the supply (more green crusties?) it would drop the voltage to the injectors when they are actuated which slows down the opening time. This would be RPM and load independent.
And today, I learned about how a waste spark system works. Your videos are very helpful and informative, thanks and keep them coming in the new year. Happy New Year.
Holy crap those plugs!!! Hahaha. This was great Ivan, kinda nostalgic. I think that's how I got to the MotoYam82 channel. Happy new year my friend! 🤗🤗 I like that you fixed up the vehicle a bit before selling. So much nicer having someone who knows what key areas to service & repair, and honestly, those services are such an easy quick job for us to do. Sell it in good conscience. 👍🏻
Although it's an older video. I learned today how a waste spark system works. I was not aware that there was a difference. Thank you Ivan you are the man.
Worked on 4 of those 2.7l engines, two 2008 and two 2011s in Kia Rondos. Just had a po304 and found the spark plug gap was at .050 rather than the .044 it was supposed to be. Previous owner used the NGK Lazer Iridiums but the cheaper 4469s rather than the 1637s which are OEM. Found cylinders 2 & 6 gaps off slightly as well. Regapped all to .044 and switched out #4 coil over and the misfire seems to have disappeared. Will be replacing all sparks plugs with the 1637s in the Spring. One interesting note about the fuel lines on these engines. Being steel they do tend to crack being within the plastic conduit in salted road areas which cause eventual failure between the pump and engine. Pressure tests should be done from the engine bay for that reason. Overall, pretty reliable engines if maintained properly.
Buying a $300 car to repair and resell is a gamble for sure. I'm happy it worked out! Congratulations! Enjoyed the video. It says a lot for the durability of those suvs! I pour bottles of Gumout with PEA in my gas tanks fairly often. I'm a believer. I also use it in my old carbed motorcycles, lawn tools, and boat motor. It clearred up a miss in the boat motor and makes the lawn tools much easier to start after sitting for a long time.
Thank you for making me smarter. I bought a scanner because of your channel and because I don't trust anybody anymore. I wish good health and prosperity for you and your loved ones in 2023 and look forward to getting even smarter from your efforts. Cheers from Canada.
In addition to my other FP post, a personal experience. This was on multiple vehicles over time, all Dodge B350 maxi vans (prisoner transport w/35 gallon optional tank). Usually around the 130-140k mile mark, I’d start getting the complaint of no power under accel. Long story short, they all ended up having the same issue of an in tank fuel pump getting weak. No noise, tank always filled after every shift. The engine would “lay down”, almost like a clogged converter or fuel filter, mid way thru third gear (under full throttle). These were MPI FI. A mechanical gauge/hose placed on rail and run under the engine cover and watched during accel, would show the gauge holding pressure thru 1st and 2nd (automatic), but hitting 3rd you’d see the needle wiggle and start dropping down, losing 10 psi before I let off, and this corresponded with a feeling of loss of power. A new fuel pump or fuel pump module (which ever was available) fixed the problem. Food for thought.
Once again, nice work Ivan. 👍 You really are a wizard. I love NGK Iridium sparks, all I use in my Hondas. If those were OE, can't really complain even about rear bank imo. Under valve cover views including cam didn't look bad at all. Smart to replace timing belt and valve cover gasket and seals, but you knew that. If it was mine, with diagnosis history, I'd be using some complete fuel system cleaner like Techron or Gumout Regane HM CFSC. Couldn't hurt and might be helpful for future injector and fuel system cleaning. On a personal note, have to say I can relate more to this $300 Hyundai diagnosis and repair than the Maserati. That said, I understand you work on all kinds and levels of vehicles. Happy New Year!
I have a Fiat punto 2001, it is a bit rough at idle and it is burning a good amount of oil, probably it has low compression also, the fuel trims are something like +20 and go up to +30 when accelerating although it has not made any engine code, I check everything, everything, and a lot of times, and everything was perfect, I found nothing wrong with the engine and generally with the car. In the end, my conclusion was that the oil that the car burns make the fuel trims go up. That's what I want to say actually, I find you and your channel last week, you make very nice videos!!
Another great case study Ivan. I knew you would make sure the customer got as perfect a vehicle as you could make it without breaking the bank so to speak. Thanks for sharing.
Happy new year Ivan looking forward to another year of learning and trying to keep my older brain functioning well following your diags and repairs. Hope the winter isn't too severe for you americans from what I've been seeing here blizards and very cold conditions. Keep up the great work your videos are high class great content and very well edited .
Very cool year end case study Ivan. Your channel has come a long way since your days doing diags with Dr. O. Congrats on your impressive growth. You deserve it. Happy New Year!
I'd often wondered about the spark polarity in this type system - so now I know! And the comments answered my question about fuel filters these days. Always learnin'! Good source of info!
Affecting both banks equally, greater lean condition at part throttle load.... Brake booster leaking possibly, torn intake boot or resonator box damaged. torn hose between evap solenoid and intake plenum. evap solenoid working incorrectly (hyundai's are very picky about their solenoids), Fuel injector set from the older delta 2.5l v6 (happens to be around a 10% difference in volume... had a camry that had a set of injectors meant for a 2.4l installed on a 2.2l, drove me bonkers, opposite issue, engine running rich). PCV valve stuck open. Can't think of much else, im suspicious of the injectors being correct. I've replaced many of em on delta engines, they don't last forever. Usually stick open for most failures. I wish I had my digits on that car, so curious.
Excellent video! Really enjoyed it! The Hyundai lives on to be a good vehicle for someone else! Great story! Hopefully the new owner takes good care of it.
I just put three cans berrymans cleaner and drove WOT cleaned injector s after a few drives . Now perfect. Berrymans cheaper than Seafoam Techtron also excellent. Put three bottles in 1/4 tank so it's concentrated. Good job Comrade 👍 Remember physics Electrons go from negative to positive.
I wonder if clearing or resetting the fuel learn cells would've made any difference? Curious if the new spark plugs brought the short and long term trims back to normal? Happy New Year Ivan and thanks for all your honest hard work!
My 1995 Lincoln Town Car sat for over ten years before I resurrected it in the fall of 2019. When I replaced the fuel pump in February 2020 it was really rusted and there was a ton of rust in the tank from ethanol and from sitting half full. New fuel pump made it 400 miles before the filter got clogged and I had to replace it on the side of the road in Madison. Bought two just in case the replacement one clogged on my way home. Fuel filters are easy to change on Panthers. 8mm socket/nut driver and a pocket screwdriver. Fourth winter in a row with this car in the most brutal elements and not in the city. Far from the city. Ain't no tow trucks around here.
Great final news that its running 100% with that type of mileage, that's a lot for any vehicle and extremely nice of you to do the neglected maintenance like the timing belt and VC gaskets which is where some of the oil consumption might have been going? Regarding the possible fuel injectors problem maybe a few cans of cleaner and see what happens after a few tanks of clean gas? I had a 96 Jeep GC with the 5.2 V-8 and original injectors that ran rough mainly at idle so i would throw a few cans of that TECHRON in and it would clean up so to me that meant injector problem, i ended up getting a set of BOSCH 4 hole injectors on ebay for $70.00 and it ran 100% and i never needed to add fuel cleaner again, speaking of lazy mechanics and POOR maintenance the fuel filter was located near the gas tank and kind of a pain to replace, anyway the 1st time i replaced it seemed like it weighed 5 pounds, another sign of laziness and neglect. Yes those plugs were TRASH, you could be right about someone's laziness which is why i hate when people spend their hard earned $$$$ somewhere only to get ripped by incompetent service from a dealer or fancy looking shop. Ivan, with 225,000 miles you sure cant knock Hyundai on that vehicle, i just bought a 2023 Tuscon SEL AWD with the 2.5 and it gets 30 highway and with the 8 speed transmission that makes use of that little engine, my GC got 12 city, 16 highway and i hate to say it but more or less the same acceleration or maybe even better due to the 8 speed. It also has what they call 'smart cruise' which holds the vehicle at say 60 going downhill by downshifting and using the brakes as well, no more run-away vehicles down Sandstone mountain in WV which is where my hideaway home is. Oh, have you heard of BLUELINK? I hope my Tuscon lasts 225,000 as i really keep up my oil changes and general maintenance, NO 7500 suggested oil change intervals for me, 4500-5000 full synthetic 0-20 for me and i did the 1st one at 2500 miles. ALL mechanics should be 50% as good as you, your troubleshooting and pinpointing with scope use is amazing to me, your customers should feel 100% assured of your work.
4 cyl tacomas have the fuel filter under the intake manifold. Easiest to just take the front left wheel off to do it. Wish it was on the frame rail like the 6 cylinders are☹️
Mr Ivan I've never seen a spark plugs that worn. I've changed plugs that has had 50 to 60 thousands gap alot but never that bad. Great content keep up the great work. Thanks for being a honest mechanic. Happy New York to you and your family.
Also, for your fuel pressure test, that idle FP isn’t helping diagnose Ft power. Take it out on the road and watch that gauge while running it thru the gears at full throttle. Get at least mid way thru third keeping an eye on that pressure. If it can’t hold rail pressure thru all that you have a weak pump. If it’s a system with a regulator on the rail and a return line, you definitely want that gauge to be up on the rail where Hyundai specifies.
Ivan, I never knew this until you talked about it. "Since one plug is fired on the exhaust stroke, serving no real purpose, the system was known as a “waste spark system.” This style of ignition has negative and positive polarity sides to the coil; meaning the spark plug also has positive or negative polarity."
I'm only part way through the video (it's paused). My FIRST guess would be that there's a fuel pressure regulator that's giving you the WRONG fuel rail pressure (assuming it's a 'return' type system). The fuel pump itself could be perfect, but the regulator is 'bypassing' too much pressure back to the tank thereby giving you a constantly LOW fuel pressure at the injectors. This would cause a consistent 'lean' condition at everything from no-load to full load! (The injectors have to stay open proportionally longer in EVERY case!) Unfortunately, I saw some comments below about plugs, so perhaps I'm wrong, but the theory still seems sound?
Never seen bad plugs cause a lean condition ive always thought it would a rich condition since pligs wouldnt fire properly learn something new everyday 🤷♂️👏👏👍
Happy New Year Ivan! Another great video! Hope you did not lose too much on the Hyundai. Scotty would have been ranting and raving (flinging his hands in the air). He would have called the Hyundai a pile of junk. Your patience persevered..
I had these lean codes on a 2003 Ford mondeo 2.5 duratec. Same motor as in the Mazda MPV. Waste spark system. I scored the car for free. Originally my mate took it into ford for a no start condition. They told him the cars computer was faulty and needed replacing. I eventually got it home to find a clogged up fuel filter. No fuel pressure. Thinking the pump died went to remove it. Only to find the connector had burnt out in the tank. Got it started then found I had low voltage thanks to the alternator being in fualt mode. Fixed that most of the other code cleared. Lean codes cleared after I replaced the knockoff bosch plugs with oem Motorcraft plugs
Once bought a 2.8 V6 Cavalier (waste spark) with 100k on it that had rear plugs nearly that bad and likely never changed. It did begin to stumble, leading to that discovery. It was as a great little car still running good with over 200k when I sold it. Have a happy new years Ivan and keep up the great videos
I saw in the background that you had an orange guy yard sign which is cool. For awhile i always wondered what your views were since you came from Russia, and still have family there.
I noticed an interesting occurrence on the scan tool at the 5:00 mark. The engine coolant temperature dropped to -11.2 degrees, then jumped back to 86 degrees. The fault may lie there, as the ECM can't calculate the proper injection time if the sensor is skewed.
Very good catch. However, if the CTS were intermittantly going low temp, that would in theory cause the PCM to command more fuel (rich), and the corrections to go negative. In this case the opposite is happening -- corrections are going positive.
I recently had a similar situation on the Marquis. You would give her the beans and the transmission would downshift and it would stumble and miss terribly. The sparkplugs weren't as bad as yours but they were close. I have had 5 sets of plugs in that car; it has 440,000 miles. I don't sell cars to people I know and I have made some of my friends mad. Great video!
As you noted, for a wasted spark system, to maximize plug life you need double plating (both center and ground electrode). For example, for Ford wasted spark DIS originally required double platinum. However, the plating is only meant to last the change interval, which at most is usually around 100,000 miles. But, you can have other problems with the plugs losing plating on the top electrode or begin to form hairline cracks or carbon tracking. Also, with aluminum heads you really want to remove the plugs at a much earlier interval to help prevent them seizing to the cylinder head. So, the spark plug change interval I would say is more like at the 45,000 mile point maximum for a Ford Aluminum cylinder head.
I purchased a 1949 international pickup truck for $75.00 in 1978. It was hard to start and didn’t run very well. I checked the plugs, all off them were the same. The center electrode was down below the enamel and the ground electrodes were completely gone. The points were completely burned away, no points at all. Plug wires all stiff and brittle. After I changed the plugs, wires, points, condenser, rotor, and distributor cap. I tried to start it, it started as fast as turning on a light switch. Let me know if you want to know the rest of the story.
Did that clear the check engine light and fuel trim problem? Doesn't Pennsylvania have state inspections where a check engine light would make it fail state inspection, it's also not like you to give up so easily, plus you could do an injector flow test now that you have the upper intake off.
Wow! I learned more from this video than any other video that you have produced, mainly cause the others were often over my head. Thank you so much. Maybe you are making me smarter. One can only hope. Kind Regards. Craig
Just a thought going by.... I had a Kia (Carnival/Sonata) that presented the very same lean codes, both banks, fuel trims high, etc.... And also same as this still ran great.... except for throwing codes and CEL. Could not figure the thing out.... everything perfect..... Until one day I discovered that I could fit two fingers into a split on the underside of the intake pipe (between MAF and throttle body).... No way you could see it unless maybe if you used a mirror. Weirdest fault from such a simple issue. Anyhow, $30 ebay intake pipe later, 15 minutes labour, and no more CEL or codes.
Whoa, I've never seen those spark plugs that badly worn!!! But at least you figured it out by the end. I keep betting that it was the vacuum leak!! But nice video!!
In my 2002 model Holden VY SS Commodore which runs the 5.7 litre Chevrolet LS1 V8 engine the P0171 & P0174 codes were caused by a bad in tank fuel pressure regulator. I tested the fuel pressure at 51 PSI when it should've been 55-62 PSI (nominally 58 PSI),I replaced the fuel pressure regulator with one of those Chinese repro PR217 fuel pressure regulators & I adjusted it as best as I could (61 PSI) with the pump running in a bucket of fuel before reinstalling it into the fuel tank. It cost me $13: AUD to fix that problem & the car has been going good for almost 3 years - no problems. The problem was 25% LTFTs on both engine banks & it was unusual for the car to get 15 litres per 100 kilometres as far as fuel consumption goes, it wasn't actually getting that fuel consumption but low fuel pressure threw the economy display out of whack. The engine did have more power & better fuel economy after I replaced the fuel pressure regulator because the fuel was getting atomised by the fuel injectors much better rather than dribbling fuel into the engine !
I happen to know the engineer who does the PCM programming for Hyundai. He told me years ago that a wider plug gap "could" affect fuel trims, especially if the plugs are older and the plug is worn. Looking at the gap, it appears to me that the worn plugs may have contributed to the leaner condition if the gap is larger than .044 which is what Hyundai calls for. This would make the burn more complete and the engine running a bit hotter than it should. The ECU I assume uses fuel trims to determine whether the engine is running at the temperature it should in the combustion chamber.
@@tomctutor I’m old but not too old to learn something new every day, so My question is why would the opposite bank O2 sensors report the same readings?
@@brianw8963 @14:30 You will see that both banks of injectors are held open too long from the OEM pid. Basically the computer can only compensate both cylinders either side and not individual cylinders.
One of our vehicles had similar symptoms from a kinked fuel line. It still worked fine even at WOT, the fuel trims were just permanently high. Nothing else seemed to be affected at all. On the other hand, we also had a clogged fuel filter and that time the vehicle just completely lost power on the highway. Is there a separate pressure regulator downstream from the tank which could be supplying lower pressure than designed? Or perhaps, there is a clog in the line itself?
I have a similar age Hyundai Trajet people mover. I have to say that its actually a very well built car over than the slightly thin body panels. The new owner may get a good run out of that.
A friend's KIA Forte 2L '17 model, non-GDI, had a strange clunk sound after engine-off. The throttle plate was learned to be programmed to cycle to clean soot from the plate edge at venturi, a few seconds after key off... Moreover, the sound was excessive. The throttle body is all by-wire, pedal to plate through the PCM. The PLASTIC 3-gear train from the throttle body motor to the throttle plate axle had -> shrunken
I had a similar thought, assuming the FPR is manifold vacuum referenced you'd expect the absolute fuel rail pressure to rise under load. However it was a very transient test (i.e. just breifly revving the engine), it would need to be checked on a test drive where the engine load could be varied. Also lack of vacuum reference would cause negligible error under high load and the fuel trims seem to be consistent across the load range.
Great video Ivan!!! I love the spark plug section. I had a spark plug like that come out of a 2007 Chevy Tahoe with a 5.3 it looked just like that plug however it had carbon buildup between the electrode and the ground. I have never seen anything like it in the 30 years that I have been wrenching.! I always learn a lot from your videos keep up the great work!
Starting to see carbon issues everywhere including places there shouldn’t be seemingly. Have to wonder if the gas we are getting is garbage. That seems to be the only constant
I'm wondering if adding 10 gallons to a 1/3 of a tank wasn't enough to fix a stale gas problem. Perhaps the new gas floated on top of the old one rather than mixing. It was running pretty good on 2 year old gas.
Happy New Year. Gasoline now days doesn't last very long Theshow days. It should have had some fuel stabilizer put in it or the tank drained if it was going to sit for that long.
I'll bet it was quite surprising to see the first spark plug with the burnt electrode, then seeing the next two looking the same. that car was neglected because those plugs require plenum removal. the twisted camshaft car with Eric O was also neglected and now you know for sure not changing the oil was the cause. owners ruining their own cars.
Amazing that old engine still runs with that oil so dirty & that low. With those original (?) plugs, it seems like the owner wasn't into a lot of maintenance, kind of like the lift owners you always get called to fix. Nice of you to replace that belt & plugs. Most people would have said, ' it runs, not my problem' after that belt slips or snaps in a few months. I wonder how they weld that iridium dot on there? Someone came up with a good idea with that.
Ivan, thanks for all the information/videos you shared it is really an eye opener for who want to learn and improve there knowledge so hope the new year will be full of success and good health HAPPY NEW YEAR to u and family from Ontario, CANADA cheeeeers. Georges
Loss of FT power at higher rpm, you can check the exhaust for flow and also since you had the valve over off, I’d suggest replacing the valve springs (unless you have a spring checker), & seals while you’re there etc. with that mileage they could definitely be a bit tired and would affect high rpm performance.
Hey just want to say thank you for your videos, you have diag skillz i will never have. keep the videos coming. being a motorcycle mechanic i don't have those issues but love your content.
NGK source: It is important to know that in a waste spark ignition system that spark plug electrode wear occurs differently based on the polarity. For plugs in a positive polarity position, more electrode wear will occur at the ground electrode. Plugs in a negative polarity position will experience more wear at the center electrode.
As a result of this, vehicles equipped with waste spark ignitions often use double precious metal spark plugs, such as the OE Iridium® or OE Platinum®. These dual precious metal plugs feature either iridium or platinum on the center-firing electrode and platinum on the ground electrode. Because these electrode materials are harder, gap erosion is reduced, allowing for a longer service interval. Since these materials are denser, this will reduce gap erosion, thus leading to a much longer service interval. The use of nickel-alloy or single precious metal spark plugs in vehicles equipped with waste spark ignitions will result in more aggressive gap erosion and shorter spark plug life. Ivan is the Man
A lucky owner not only because of it's current condition, but they know Ivan is there in case
It’s possible that you have a clogged fuel filter with that old gas that was in it. Your pressure would have remained high at the tank where you measured it.
Thats what im thinking they do get clogged.
That's what I thought as well, or maybe fuel pressure regulator.
I also wonder if some fuel additive, injector cleaner would do any good?
Clogged filter would give a very load dependent problem. If it was clogged enough to be starving the engine of fuel at idle if would fall on it's face when loaded.
Yep... clogged filter or line obstruction. It's worth checking at least.
@@ferrumignis exactly right. If it runs rich WOT then fuel pump and filter is fine 👍😁
I have seen plugs get that bad before. Shocking this car didn't misfire or stumble. But wow! I've run into a very similar problem before on a V6 Hyundia before and couldn't figure out why it was doing that. I guess now I'll be checking those plugs next time. Thanks Ivan.
Check voltage on the supply side of the injectors with the engine running (ideally using a scope). If there is a slightly high resistance in the supply (more green crusties?) it would drop the voltage to the injectors when they are actuated which slows down the opening time. This would be RPM and load independent.
Now that is a very interesting idea! Wonder if the injectors are fed by that main relay? 😉
Excellent idea!
Big like 👍
Never seen plugs that bad, surprised it ran at all! Happy New Year Ivan 🎊
And today, I learned about how a waste spark system works. Your videos are very helpful and informative, thanks and keep them coming in the new year. Happy New Year.
Holy crap those plugs!!! Hahaha. This was great Ivan, kinda nostalgic. I think that's how I got to the MotoYam82 channel. Happy new year my friend! 🤗🤗
I like that you fixed up the vehicle a bit before selling. So much nicer having someone who knows what key areas to service & repair, and honestly, those services are such an easy quick job for us to do. Sell it in good conscience. 👍🏻
Hi Cuba happy new year to you too!
You know me, I can't stop repairing a neglected car until it's up to my high standards of reliability 😁😉
Hi Ivan,
Glad the new owner has not had any problems. You and your family have a safe and Happy New Year.
Although it's an older video. I learned today how a waste spark system works. I was not aware that there was a difference. Thank you Ivan you are the man.
With plugs like that I'm surprised it ran that good. That's a hell of a jump for the spark to travel. Happy new year Ivan.
neglect just like the twisted camshaft car
Happy New Year! You are quite incredible and make fascinating videos! I'll be watching another year!
Congrats to the new owner of a nicely fixed cheap car.
I can't believe it would run like that. It gives me a bit more respect for old Hyundai's. Thanks Ivan.
Worked on 4 of those 2.7l engines, two 2008 and two 2011s in Kia Rondos. Just had a po304 and found the spark plug gap was at .050 rather than the .044 it was supposed to be. Previous owner used the NGK Lazer Iridiums but the cheaper 4469s rather than the 1637s which are OEM. Found cylinders 2 & 6 gaps off slightly as well. Regapped all to .044 and switched out #4 coil over and the misfire seems to have disappeared. Will be replacing all sparks plugs with the 1637s in the Spring. One interesting note about the fuel lines on these engines. Being steel they do tend to crack being within the plastic conduit in salted road areas which cause eventual failure between the pump and engine. Pressure tests should be done from the engine bay for that reason. Overall, pretty reliable engines if maintained properly.
U'd think if the spark plugs were the cause of lean code then only one bank will be effected, As good as always Ivan, well done.
Buying a $300 car to repair and resell is a gamble for sure. I'm happy it worked out! Congratulations! Enjoyed the video. It says a lot for the durability of those suvs! I pour bottles of Gumout with PEA in my gas tanks fairly often. I'm a believer. I also use it in my old carbed motorcycles, lawn tools, and boat motor. It clearred up a miss in the boat motor and makes the lawn tools much easier to start after sitting for a long time.
Thank you for making me smarter. I bought a scanner because of your channel and because I don't trust anybody anymore. I wish good health and prosperity for you and your loved ones in 2023 and look forward to getting even smarter from your efforts. Cheers from Canada.
In addition to my other FP post, a personal experience. This was on multiple vehicles over time, all Dodge B350 maxi vans (prisoner transport w/35 gallon optional tank). Usually around the 130-140k mile mark, I’d start getting the complaint of no power under accel. Long story short, they all ended up having the same issue of an in tank fuel pump getting weak. No noise, tank always filled after every shift. The engine would “lay down”, almost like a clogged converter or fuel filter, mid way thru third gear (under full throttle). These were MPI FI. A mechanical gauge/hose placed on rail and run under the engine cover and watched during accel, would show the gauge holding pressure thru 1st and 2nd (automatic), but hitting 3rd you’d see the needle wiggle and start dropping down, losing 10 psi before I let off, and this corresponded with a feeling of loss of power. A new fuel pump or fuel pump module (which ever was available) fixed the problem. Food for thought.
Once again, nice work Ivan. 👍 You really are a wizard. I love NGK Iridium sparks, all I use in my Hondas. If those were OE, can't really complain even about rear bank imo. Under valve cover views including cam didn't look bad at all. Smart to replace timing belt and valve cover gasket and seals, but you knew that. If it was mine, with diagnosis history, I'd be using some complete fuel system cleaner like Techron or Gumout Regane HM CFSC. Couldn't hurt and might be helpful for future injector and fuel system cleaning. On a personal note, have to say I can relate more to this $300 Hyundai diagnosis and repair than the Maserati. That said, I understand you work on all kinds and levels of vehicles. Happy New Year!
I have a Fiat punto 2001, it is a bit rough at idle and it is burning a good amount of oil, probably it has low compression also, the fuel trims are something like +20 and go up to +30 when accelerating although it has not made any engine code, I check everything, everything, and a lot of times, and everything was perfect, I found nothing wrong with the engine and generally with the car. In the end, my conclusion was that the oil that the car burns make the fuel trims go up. That's what I want to say actually, I find you and your channel last week, you make very nice videos!!
Hi Ivan did the new plugs cure the lean codes great vid 👍
Hello, fuel injector cleaner also replace the fuel filter and for good measure send some air down the fuel lines to clean them out.
Wow.. You gave her the full treatment. Nice.
This thing should make it to 350k miles I would think now.
First of the new year bitches!
Edit: Ivan, make pine hollow fender covers , I'll be the first buyer!
Your staying up kinda late young man. Happy New Year.
He's off tomorrow
Another great case study Ivan. I knew you would make sure the customer got as perfect a vehicle as you could make it without breaking the bank so to speak. Thanks for sharing.
Happy new year Ivan looking forward to another year of learning and trying to keep my older brain functioning well following your diags and repairs. Hope the winter isn't too severe for you americans from what I've been seeing here blizards and very cold conditions. Keep up the great work your videos are high class great content and very well edited .
Very cool year end case study Ivan. Your channel has come a long way since your days doing diags with Dr. O. Congrats on your impressive growth. You deserve it. Happy New Year!
Happy new year pine hollow, never change buddy.
All the same Ivan! Great 2023!
I'd often wondered about the spark polarity in this type system - so now I know! And the comments answered my question about fuel filters these days. Always learnin'! Good source of info!
Affecting both banks equally, greater lean condition at part throttle load.... Brake booster leaking possibly, torn intake boot or resonator box damaged. torn hose between evap solenoid and intake plenum. evap solenoid working incorrectly (hyundai's are very picky about their solenoids), Fuel injector set from the older delta 2.5l v6 (happens to be around a 10% difference in volume... had a camry that had a set of injectors meant for a 2.4l installed on a 2.2l, drove me bonkers, opposite issue, engine running rich). PCV valve stuck open. Can't think of much else, im suspicious of the injectors being correct. I've replaced many of em on delta engines, they don't last forever. Usually stick open for most failures. I wish I had my digits on that car, so curious.
Excellent video! Really enjoyed it! The Hyundai lives on to be a good vehicle for someone else! Great story! Hopefully the new owner takes good care of it.
I just put three cans berrymans cleaner and drove WOT cleaned injector s after a few drives .
Now perfect.
Berrymans cheaper than Seafoam
Techtron also excellent.
Put three bottles in 1/4 tank so it's concentrated.
Good job Comrade 👍
Remember physics Electrons go from negative to positive.
I wonder if clearing or resetting the fuel learn cells would've made any difference?
Curious if the new spark plugs brought the short and long term trims back to normal?
Happy New Year Ivan and thanks for all your honest hard work!
My 1995 Lincoln Town Car sat for over ten years before I resurrected it in the fall of 2019. When I replaced the fuel pump in February 2020 it was really rusted and there was a ton of rust in the tank from ethanol and from sitting half full. New fuel pump made it 400 miles before the filter got clogged and I had to replace it on the side of the road in Madison. Bought two just in case the replacement one clogged on my way home. Fuel filters are easy to change on Panthers. 8mm socket/nut driver and a pocket screwdriver. Fourth winter in a row with this car in the most brutal elements and not in the city. Far from the city. Ain't no tow trucks around here.
Great final news that its running 100% with that type of mileage, that's a lot for any vehicle and extremely nice of you to do the neglected maintenance like the timing belt and VC gaskets which is where some of the oil consumption might have been going? Regarding the possible fuel injectors problem maybe a few cans of cleaner and see what happens after a few tanks of clean gas? I had a 96 Jeep GC with the 5.2 V-8 and original injectors that ran rough mainly at idle so i would throw a few cans of that TECHRON in and it would clean up so to me that meant injector problem, i ended up getting a set of BOSCH 4 hole injectors on ebay for $70.00 and it ran 100% and i never needed to add fuel cleaner again, speaking of lazy mechanics and POOR maintenance the fuel filter was located near the gas tank and kind of a pain to replace, anyway the 1st time i replaced it seemed like it weighed 5 pounds, another sign of laziness and neglect. Yes those plugs were TRASH, you could be right about someone's laziness which is why i hate when people spend their hard earned $$$$ somewhere only to get ripped by incompetent service from a dealer or fancy looking shop. Ivan, with 225,000 miles you sure cant knock Hyundai on that vehicle, i just bought a 2023 Tuscon SEL AWD with the 2.5 and it gets 30 highway and with the 8 speed transmission that makes use of that little engine, my GC got 12 city, 16 highway and i hate to say it but more or less the same acceleration or maybe even better due to the 8 speed. It also has what they call 'smart cruise' which holds the vehicle at say 60 going downhill by downshifting and using the brakes as well, no more run-away vehicles down Sandstone mountain in WV which is where my hideaway home is. Oh, have you heard of BLUELINK? I hope my Tuscon lasts 225,000 as i really keep up my oil changes and general maintenance, NO 7500 suggested oil change intervals for me, 4500-5000 full synthetic 0-20 for me and i did the 1st one at 2500 miles.
ALL mechanics should be 50% as good as you, your troubleshooting and pinpointing with scope use is amazing to me, your customers should feel 100% assured of your work.
4 cyl tacomas have the fuel filter under the intake manifold. Easiest to just take the front left wheel off to do it. Wish it was on the frame rail like the 6 cylinders are☹️
Mr Ivan I've never seen a spark plugs that worn. I've changed plugs that has had 50 to 60 thousands gap alot but never that bad. Great content keep up the great work. Thanks for being a honest mechanic. Happy New York to you and your family.
Happy New Year.
Glad you looked at the plugs. I figured they would show something given the fact that there were fuel trims going on.
Also, for your fuel pressure test, that idle FP isn’t helping diagnose Ft power. Take it out on the road and watch that gauge while running it thru the gears at full throttle. Get at least mid way thru third keeping an eye on that pressure. If it can’t hold rail pressure thru all that you have a weak pump. If it’s a system with a regulator on the rail and a return line, you definitely want that gauge to be up on the rail where Hyundai specifies.
Ivan, I never knew this until you talked about it. "Since one plug is fired on the exhaust stroke, serving no real purpose, the system was known as a “waste spark system.” This style of ignition has negative and positive polarity sides to the coil; meaning the spark plug also has positive or negative polarity."
I'm only part way through the video (it's paused). My FIRST guess would be that there's a fuel pressure regulator that's giving you the WRONG fuel rail pressure (assuming it's a 'return' type system). The fuel pump itself could be perfect, but the regulator is 'bypassing' too much pressure back to the tank thereby giving you a constantly LOW fuel pressure at the injectors. This would cause a consistent 'lean' condition at everything from no-load to full load! (The injectors have to stay open proportionally longer in EVERY case!)
Unfortunately, I saw some comments below about plugs, so perhaps I'm wrong, but the theory still seems sound?
Never seen bad plugs cause a lean condition ive always thought it would a rich condition since pligs wouldnt fire properly learn something new everyday 🤷♂️👏👏👍
Happy New Year Ivan! Another great video! Hope you did not lose too much on the Hyundai. Scotty would have been ranting and raving (flinging his hands in the air). He would have called the Hyundai a pile of junk. Your patience persevered..
I had these lean codes on a 2003 Ford mondeo 2.5 duratec. Same motor as in the Mazda MPV. Waste spark system. I scored the car for free.
Originally my mate took it into ford for a no start condition. They told him the cars computer was faulty and needed replacing.
I eventually got it home to find a clogged up fuel filter. No fuel pressure. Thinking the pump died went to remove it. Only to find the connector had burnt out in the tank. Got it started then found I had low voltage thanks to the alternator being in fualt mode. Fixed that most of the other code cleared.
Lean codes cleared after I replaced the knockoff bosch plugs with oem Motorcraft plugs
Good video. Would really like to see a follow up after running a few tanks with injector cleaner in the gas.
Another Tuneupmaster special job, how many times have we seen this.
Once bought a 2.8 V6 Cavalier (waste spark) with 100k on it that had rear plugs nearly that bad and likely never changed. It did begin to stumble, leading to that discovery. It was as a great little car still running good with over 200k when I sold it.
Have a happy new years Ivan and keep up the great videos
Happy New Year Ivan!
Happy New year, with prosperity and lots of happiness. Keep up the good work.
I saw in the background that you had an orange guy yard sign which is cool. For awhile i always wondered what your views were since you came from Russia, and still have family there.
I noticed an interesting occurrence on the scan tool at the 5:00 mark. The engine coolant temperature dropped to -11.2 degrees, then jumped back to 86 degrees. The fault may lie there, as the ECM can't calculate the proper injection time if the sensor is skewed.
Very good catch. However, if the CTS were intermittantly going low temp, that would in theory cause the PCM to command more fuel (rich), and the corrections to go negative. In this case the opposite is happening -- corrections are going positive.
I recently had a similar situation on the Marquis. You would give her the beans and the transmission would downshift and it would stumble and miss terribly. The sparkplugs weren't as bad as yours but they were close. I have had 5 sets of plugs in that car; it has 440,000 miles. I don't sell cars to people I know and I have made some of my friends mad. Great video!
As you noted, for a wasted spark system, to maximize plug life you need double plating (both center and ground electrode). For example, for Ford wasted spark DIS originally required double platinum. However, the plating is only meant to last the change interval, which at most is usually around 100,000 miles. But, you can have other problems with the plugs losing plating on the top electrode or begin to form hairline cracks or carbon tracking. Also, with aluminum heads you really want to remove the plugs at a much earlier interval to help prevent them seizing to the cylinder head. So, the spark plug change interval I would say is more like at the 45,000 mile point maximum for a Ford Aluminum cylinder head.
I purchased a 1949 international pickup truck for $75.00 in 1978. It was hard to start and didn’t run very well. I checked the plugs, all off them were the same. The center electrode was down below the enamel and the ground electrodes were completely gone. The points were completely burned away, no points at all. Plug wires all stiff and brittle. After I changed the plugs, wires, points, condenser, rotor, and distributor cap. I tried to start it, it started as fast as turning on a light switch. Let me know if you want to know the rest of the story.
Did that clear the check engine light and fuel trim problem? Doesn't Pennsylvania have state inspections where a check engine light would make it fail state inspection, it's also not like you to give up so easily, plus you could do an injector flow test now that you have the upper intake off.
Wow! I learned more from this video than any other video that you have produced, mainly cause the others were often over my head. Thank you so much. Maybe you are making me smarter. One can only hope. Kind Regards. Craig
Just a thought going by....
I had a Kia (Carnival/Sonata) that presented the very same lean codes, both banks, fuel trims high, etc.... And also same as this still ran great.... except for throwing codes and CEL.
Could not figure the thing out.... everything perfect..... Until one day I discovered that I could fit two fingers into a split on the underside of the intake pipe (between MAF and throttle body).... No way you could see it unless maybe if you used a mirror. Weirdest fault from such a simple issue.
Anyhow, $30 ebay intake pipe later, 15 minutes labour, and no more CEL or codes.
Ha that was my first check off camera... No holes in the intake pipe 👍
Whoa, I've never seen those spark plugs that badly worn!!! But at least you figured it out by the end. I keep betting that it was the vacuum leak!! But nice video!!
HAPPY NEW YEAR IVAN.
In my 2002 model Holden VY SS Commodore which runs the 5.7 litre Chevrolet LS1 V8 engine the P0171 & P0174 codes were caused by a bad in tank fuel pressure regulator.
I tested the fuel pressure at 51 PSI when it should've been 55-62 PSI (nominally 58 PSI),I replaced the fuel pressure regulator with one of those Chinese repro PR217 fuel pressure regulators & I adjusted it as best as I could (61 PSI) with the pump running in a bucket of fuel before reinstalling it into the fuel tank.
It cost me $13: AUD to fix that problem & the car has been going good for almost 3 years - no problems.
The problem was 25% LTFTs on both engine banks & it was unusual for the car to get 15 litres per 100 kilometres as far as fuel consumption goes, it wasn't actually getting that fuel consumption but low fuel pressure threw the economy display out of whack.
The engine did have more power & better fuel economy after I replaced the fuel pressure regulator because the fuel was getting atomised by the fuel injectors much better rather than dribbling fuel into the engine !
I happen to know the engineer who does the PCM programming for Hyundai. He told me years ago that a wider plug gap "could" affect fuel trims, especially if the plugs are older and the plug is worn. Looking at the gap, it appears to me that the worn plugs may have contributed to the leaner condition if the gap is larger than .044 which is what Hyundai calls for. This would make the burn more complete and the engine running a bit hotter than it should. The ECU I assume uses fuel trims to determine whether the engine is running at the temperature it should in the combustion chamber.
I thought about that too after seeing those plugs, but both banks were almost identical trims?
The only way this would affect fuel trims is if the excessive spark gap is causing a misfire.
@@brianw8963 Not surprising as both plugs (either side) fire at same time, so any restriction on one side will effect the other!
@@tomctutor I’m old but not too old to learn something new every day, so My question is why would the opposite bank O2 sensors report the same readings?
@@brianw8963 @14:30 You will see that both banks of injectors are held open too long from the OEM pid. Basically the computer can only compensate both cylinders either side and not individual cylinders.
Did the new plugs solve the problem ?happy new year
Rear bank never get changed. Because you have to take the intake off.
Wow those rear bank plugs had quite the gap. Saw some on a jeep that were probably a little less but not much. Crazy!
One of our vehicles had similar symptoms from a kinked fuel line. It still worked fine even at WOT, the fuel trims were just permanently high. Nothing else seemed to be affected at all. On the other hand, we also had a clogged fuel filter and that time the vehicle just completely lost power on the highway. Is there a separate pressure regulator downstream from the tank which could be supplying lower pressure than designed? Or perhaps, there is a clog in the line itself?
Wow, design flaw or lack of maintenance? Ivan, you will always have employment!
Wondering if the fuel trims improved after the spark plug replacement?
Yeah... there bo part 3??
Didn't change at all 😅
Happy New Year!!!
I actually thought you were going to offer this back to your neighbor good to go again for a minute.
I have a similar age Hyundai Trajet people mover. I have to say that its actually a very well built car over than the slightly thin body panels. The new owner may get a good run out of that.
Another great video Ivan. Useful information on the wasted spark system, didn't know about the plug wear. All the best for 2023!
A friend's KIA Forte 2L '17 model, non-GDI, had a strange clunk sound after engine-off. The throttle plate was learned to be programmed to cycle to clean soot from the plate edge at venturi, a few seconds after key off... Moreover, the sound was excessive. The throttle body is all by-wire, pedal to plate through the PCM. The PLASTIC 3-gear train from the throttle body motor to the throttle plate axle had -> shrunken
Nice to see a great video of your work
Well done Ivan, another useful video, happy new year with good health
@12:56 didnt look like a bad FPR !! Fuel pressure dropped instead of increased when u hit the gas ??
I had a similar thought, assuming the FPR is manifold vacuum referenced you'd expect the absolute fuel rail pressure to rise under load. However it was a very transient test (i.e. just breifly revving the engine), it would need to be checked on a test drive where the engine load could be varied. Also lack of vacuum reference would cause negligible error under high load and the fuel trims seem to be consistent across the load range.
Happy new year,i have also seen spark plugs do that,but a good diagnosis down to you.
Well done Mr 😎
Great video Ivan!!! I love the spark plug section. I had a spark plug like that come out of a 2007 Chevy Tahoe with a 5.3 it looked just like that plug however it had carbon buildup between the electrode and the ground. I have never seen anything like it in the 30 years that I have been wrenching.! I always learn a lot from your videos keep up the great work!
Starting to see carbon issues everywhere including places there shouldn’t be seemingly. Have to wonder if the gas we are getting is garbage. That seems to be the only constant
I'm wondering if adding 10 gallons to a 1/3 of a tank wasn't enough to fix a stale gas problem. Perhaps the new gas floated on top of the old one rather than mixing. It was running pretty good on 2 year old gas.
Happy New Year. Gasoline now days doesn't last very long Theshow days. It should have had some fuel stabilizer put in it or the tank drained if it was going to sit for that long.
Maybe run some injector cleaner through the engine and see if that clears up any clogged injectors?
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year! 🎉🥳
Happy New Year. It’s amazing how an exhaust system falling off can cause all those problems. 😂
I'll bet it was quite surprising to see the first spark plug with the burnt electrode, then seeing the next two looking the same. that car was neglected because those plugs require plenum removal. the twisted camshaft car with Eric O was also neglected and now you know for sure not changing the oil was the cause. owners ruining their own cars.
Great video Ivan. I'm surprised the exterior body was in such good shape.
Happy New year Ivan and family from Indiana.
Happy New Year, Ivan!!!!!
I ❤ the SD WOT test; use it ALL the time. Also, I ❤ BT's lean code troubleshooting techniques; very progressive & conclusive.
Happy new year for you & your famaly.interesting video, thanks.
18:38 -- I'm surprised that those badly eroded plugs didn't trigger some DTC.
Amazing that old engine still runs with that oil so dirty & that low. With those original (?) plugs, it seems like the owner wasn't into a lot of maintenance, kind of like the lift owners you always get called to fix. Nice of you to replace that belt & plugs. Most people would have said, ' it runs, not my problem' after that belt slips or snaps in a few months. I wonder how they weld that iridium dot on there? Someone came up with a good idea with that.
Ivan, thanks for all the information/videos you shared it is really an eye opener for who want to learn and improve there knowledge so hope the new year will be full of success and good health HAPPY NEW YEAR to u and family from Ontario, CANADA cheeeeers. Georges
Wow those plugs were chewed up.... Bonkers !
Loss of FT power at higher rpm, you can check the exhaust for flow and also since you had the valve over off, I’d suggest replacing the valve springs (unless you have a spring checker), & seals while you’re there etc. with that mileage they could definitely be a bit tired and would affect high rpm performance.
Actually I unplugged the MAF and it runs great! Sold it to a friend, he uses it daily, doesn't even burn any oil! :)
Hey just want to say thank you for your videos, you have diag skillz i will never have. keep the videos coming. being a motorcycle mechanic i don't have those issues but love your content.
Always check fuel pressure at the rail/carb. Partial Plugged dented fuel line, filter