How Shed Tail Broke Competitive Pokemon... Twice
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- First it was Cyclizar... then it was Orthworm. The Shed Tail Menace was eventually too much for OU. Here's What Happened.
This video refers to Smogon's 6v6 Singles on Pokemon Showdown
Edited by tazprods
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Just wait until gen 10 gives shed tail to the slowbro family
That actually does make sense as a thing that could happen. It’d make Teleport from gen 8 seem tame by comparison lol.
That should've been a thing since gen 6 😂
By then the move shed tail itself will probably be banned still much like Baton Pass today.
the worst part of this comment is i can see that happening
Not gonna happen
The abrupt "neither pokemon are expected to be good anymore" got me 💀
Cycliazar is now just UU torn t.
With a big TERRIBLE POKEMON stamped on top of them lol
Cyclizar is actually the best hazard removal and overall utility in UU right now
@@elotufo freezai so unintentionally funny i swear 😭
Ever since the shed tail ban was done I have been screaming and yelling at friends about how Cyclizard is going to be a UU menace because its the one tier I play and im so glad I was partially correct on it.
Really enjoyed how you went into the thought process and reasons behind the complex bans instead of just blanket stating that they are bad or that's just how smogon prefers it.
same, i've never minded them not wanting to do complex bans but i hadn't thought about the philosophy
yeah I think this is the cleanest explanation I've seen as to why smogon is resistant to complex bans
except it literally is just how smogon prefers it lmao (showdown isn't even a majority of hte community, far from it, and y'all should stop pretending like you are the majority)
@@SnoFitzroy No one's pretending they're the majority. Did you have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion?
@@SnoFitzroy Nobody Asked
It’s funny how no matter how many complex bans there are, BP will always be fundamentally broken. Even Shed Tail being a mini-Baton Pass is too much.
It's the fundamental issue of passing buffs to another pokemon. You have a powerful attacker get stronger without any investment on their part.
@@RFDN0 To be fair, Pokémon is a team game, so it was a team investment. The issue was the the fact that either had the capacity to stop it entirely or you didn't.
@@RFDN0 I agree with the fact that it’s only broken for passing buffs since dry passing in ADV is so good. Nowadays there’s no need to dry pass with pivot moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch
@@lesqueegee and then with the teleport buff, you can freely pivot without worrying about the opponent stopping it by switching in a pokemon immune to the pivot move.
Hot take: I really don't like dry pass (having bp with no stat boosting moves, substitute or abilities) being banned.
Now we all know how amazing teleport it, and dry baton pass is basically the same. There are tons of defensive / future sight mons knowing baton pass (and not teleport) that would benefit from it, and it would be an healthy addition to all single metas
It's funny how only two Pokémon has Shed Tail, and yet it works perfectly well in those two.
Cyclizar as a fast Shed Tail abuser thanks to Regenerator, as well of a great lead with Taunt, and Orthworm as a slow Shed Tail user, guaranteeing a safer set up
Orthworm also has really high defense
and Orthworm also has Earth Eater, which can help it use Shed Tail against Ground Types like Ting Lu or Fissure Dondozo
@@enderdudebruh8270 Not just that, earth eater heals it, which can lead to more shed tail usage
@@enderdudebruh8270 the best part is that u wall most tusks [they dont run fighting moves that much and tera ghost was a great tusk COUNTER.]
Orthworm with earth eater in doubles rewards the use of earthquake by the partner pokemon
This ban absolutely boned me. Now I gotta use my brain instead of passing to valiant or moon? Some bs
I can't Shed Tail into my Tera Water Annihilape 😢
Interestingly enough, Cylcizar was moved two full tiers down, from Ubers to UU, kind of representing just how strong Shed Tail is.
Can't wait for something like this move, but it passes defense boosts instead. Another watered down baton pass
As a vgc player I always foud it weird that cyclizar was better than orthworm, in vgc orthworm is way more reliable since it's so slow it makes sure that the pokemon coming in has an intact substitute, you could also heal it with your own earthquake. It wasn't top tier but it was better than cyclizar I think
High speed matters a lot more in 1v1 because the move itself requires 50% of your mon's health, taking a hit is an enormous risk. Also, you can potentially switch a counter to the mon you're facing with a sub up to take a hit and keep the sub, making it a very dangerous guessing game for your opponent, plus Regenerator is at its strongest in singles where switching is more prevalent and pairs wonderfully with Shed Tail, allowing for multiple passes with good play, while Earth Eater, though really good (specially for eq spam in vgc) just does not compare.
It comes down to the fundamental differences between doubles and singles. Doubles has two mons able to interact and minimal switching. Singles only has 1 and at high levels is all about switching.
Regenerator + a ton of other utility moves like rapid spin, knock off, taunt, and u turn goes a long way in singles
Hazard removal is way more important in singles than in doubles and you can't heal it with your own EQs. Plus there's way more switching in singles so Regenerator is way better.
People think cyclizar is better for singles but it isn’t. Reason is cyclizar is better for balance but shed tail on HO (hyper offense) is better and orthworm is more preferable for HO. Cyclizar got banned first because if you look at it, it has faster speed, rapid spin, taunt, knock off, U-turn and regenerator which looks more broken than orthworm but all of that utility and consistency doesn’t matter as much as using shed tail after your opponent when using HO.
In HO you can set up shed tail 5 times with cyclizar and it wouldn’t be as valuable as orthworm using shed tail one time and getting more value with it since it is a free extra turn.
Orthworm was also anti-meta since it beat a lot of the top 10 most used Pokémon in singles like kingambit, baxcalibur, roaring moon and d-nite.
If you don’t believe me you could look at December usage stats and see that cyclizar was dropping in usage before it got banned even with broken stuff like annihilape and Espathra still allowed. While in Orthworm’s case it was about to rise into top 10 usage before it got banned.
I appreciate the pacing between voice lines here, thanks for adjusting it! Short, but not abrupt.
Btw, they also agreed to ban last respects because it's way too strong of a move because of Basculegion, so yeah, it seems a bit arbitrary in that specific situation but not for rage fist because Primeape isn't considered overpowered. People expect Cyclizar to stay in UU as a pseudo-Tornadus, while Orthworm should fall all the way to NU, and then to PU/ZU once Home is released.
Not just Basculegion, but sand rush Houndstone too
Rage Fist only breaks 1 Pokemon Last Respects breaks multiple. Smogon only bans a move/ability if it's broken on all (fully evolved) Pokemon that get it. Shed Tail is broken on Cyclizar and Orthworm so it gets banned, Last Respects is broken on Houndstone and Basculegion so it gets banned, Rage Fist is broken on Annihilape and nothing else (because nothing else gets it).
It’s even funnier since she’d tail is following in the footsteps of another broken move, baton pass, and even with just passing a sub it’s still busted
Only passing a sub AND cutting the user hp in half, with it failing otherwise.
@@walaceandrade4046
Yeah but baton pass like moves still prove to be broken and this is just the latest iteration to be broken
Only the devs could make a strong move that’s balanced due to its hp cost, who then give the Pokémon regenerator, which completely nullifies the down side. Like what did they think would happen??
Orthworm also has Earth Eater so both pokemon have abilities that eliminate the main drawback of Shed Tail
they were tryna get you to use it in doubles, I don't think they care that much what happens in singles
They tried so hard to make the baton pass appealing in VGC, and well, in worked.
@@VenoMantis
This
They've given up balancing singles and are counting on the inherrant chaos and speed of doubles to iron out the worst imbalance
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 And yet they still screwed up so bad that they made Fissure viable
Cyclizar is such a cool pokemon, so I'm sad it's not expected to be any good. It tried, it really did! But shed tail was way too big a crutch to last.
Orthworm is also adorably derpy. You wouldn't think it'd go and threaten the meta at tailpoint, but it did. That's like a kitten robbing a bank -- honestly I'm not mad, I'm just impressed.
Just use it in whatever tier it ends up in! That's the beauty of smogon tiering, being able to use your favorite mons against others of a simmilar power level for the most fair and balanced play!
Cyclizar is currently an excellent spinner and utility Pokémon in UU
@@honjon666 Unfortunately some tiers like SU and below dont have ladder. Gumshoos is the king in SU[sub zero used]
@@indiradevi6217 you can't blame showdown staff for not offering a ladder that would (practically speaking) never get played.
@@honjon666 i never blamed showdown staff. I am just saying its unfortunate lower tiers are not getting ladder. I know in future SU will have ladder after having a playerbase.
If I had a nickel for every time Shed Tail broke the OU metagame I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice
God i didnt even finish the video yet but that magnezone failing to break the annihilape's sub with volt switch had me *reeling*
I do NOT miss that meta, I'm gonna have to take a break and come back to this one, that was visceral
It truly was a time to remember when Cyclizar was considered just as good as its paradox formes
I feel like Last Respects might end up getting banned once the Home update happens, because Last Respects is listed as one of Basculegion's egg moves (and this move would be problematic on the male specifically)
This has been confirmed a couple of hours ago by OU Council leader finchinator. Last respects is banned and both Basculegion and Houndstone are going into OU once home drops
I came from the future saying that u are right
yea we banned subpass but surely it was worth testing a condensed version of the move
How would that be done exactly?
@@Pam234 he was making a joke
Baton Pass was banned not subpass, Baton passing boosts was broken and multiple iterations of complex baton pass bans existed such as no boost passing just to facilitate drypassing. Subpass was definitely a way to use baton pass but it was far from the reason it got banned from multiple generations. Shed Tail not being able to pass boosts differentiated it enough to warrant it see use to determine if it was broken. Even with hindsight, I’d still rather have the council let Shed Tail exist and then deal with it later than preemptively ban it at the start of the generation.
@@EMPMagic"Subpass" sounds like Shed Tail, which only exists in Gen 9.
I remember the reveal of that move. My first thought was 'Wow, there are some real jokers working at Gamefreak, this move is going to break singles over its knee'.
if smogon was 10 iq: "the issue is the attacks!!"
smogons actual iq of 50,000: we refuse to ban a pokemon entirely on one single benefit. each pokemon has the chance to advance or fall back depending on their own merits, and depending on the proficiency or lack of skill of each pokemon, they will all be judged on an equal playing field. the council has spokemon"
>VGC never had baton pass catch on
>Flashbacks to all the Extreme Evo boost eevees I had to fight in 2017
So wait is the history of competitive hackmons a series or a one off because from the looks of it, it was a series?
Also what happened to littlelockes they were so much fun
a series, but those videos have more research and take longer to make
Oh ok fair enough, and thanks for the great content, I know it’s been hard with getting into the vgc scene but what your doing, making pokemon so much more accessible and providing intresting content, is incredibly admirable
@@FreezaiPokemon Fair enough, you're now covering BOTH balanced and pure Sharkmons.
Raise your thumb if you saw this day coming back on release.
Its just weird when you compare it to other games that do complex bans.
Some card games have a "tiering system" like a banlist. You can only run 1, 2, 3 or no copies of the card.
But some complex bans do sonething like... you can run 3 copies of each card but not with each other.... a good decision in my opinion.
For pokemon... it seems appropriate. I heard the argument of "well just ban hydro pump for certain pokemon" but honestly... i dont buy that argument. Theres still tons of moves IN GENERAL... you can replace with hydropump to still kill the opponent.
Hydropump isnt the issue. The stats to use them are.
Again. Only 2 pokemon had shed tail... are you telling me that if it was only tied to one it would be a hard decision to make... but once its 2 pokemon that use it... its okay?
Just have complex ban certain EXCLUSIVE MOVES. nobody is out here saying flamethrower on the high tiers is the issue. Its always been stats.
More and more, gamefreak introduce exclusive moves. Seems weird to keep going with the same model and ban pokemon that dont need to. Or ONLY BANNING MOVES WHEN 2 OR MORE USE IT.
I don't see any arguments to counter the points made in the video at all... if you had to use a better example, then Rage Fist. Primeape is still not banned. so, where does your argument stand now then?
your shed tail statement also seems backwards. if it was only one shed tail user, then that user would be banned and it'd be an easy decision
you literally have just given no real arguments lmao, what you say is a pure opinion without any arguments to back it up...
@@GoXDS Yeah... theyd ban sclizar if hes the only one with shedtail. thats my POINT. Sciclizar by itself has never been the issue. Noone is making that argument. Weve always said its shedtail... so why ban the pokemon in its entirety if it can be used in other tiers without the move?
But when 2 pokemon have the broken move... after a few months... now its appropriate to ban the move. When it already had grounds to be banned.
If we can ban a move that only 2 pokemon can use... why cant we just ban specific EXCLUSIVE moves that pokemon have instead of banning the pokemon outright?
It just doesnt make sense.
@@SoftwareNeos you still don't address any of the counterpoints in the video. at least for if there was only one user, it can just be a simple difference in opinion (that you don't care about preserving what's unique about a Pokemon). but it's not just a simple case of opinions for more than one user, which you have not presented any arguments for at all
Shed tail wasn't banned because there wasn't a precedent that the move was op, just cyclizar. Once it was discovered that the worm could use the move well (at the time this wasn't concensus) shed tail was banned.
The editing for this video was top notch. 10/10
That is some great new editing man. Your content is so much further above a lot of other poketubers (to the point where I noticed some are copying the way your videos are titled). Keep it up.
Houndstone is an interesting case here too. Basically for a move to be banned it must be broken in all cases. Rage fist isn’t broken on primeape, so the Pokémon anihilape was banned not the move. Shed tail was broken in all cases (orth and cycle) so the move was banned. Houndstone is really only broken with last respects, but there are known Pokémon coming with Pokémon home’s release that will get the move. Those have to be proven broken too for the move to be banned instead, so houndstone has to wait it out in Ubers for them to be released. I do think we will see the move last respects banned though in time and houndstone released and in lower tiers.
I think the councils wanted to ban Last Respects sooner, they are/were just not allowed to until it's absolutly certain Basculegion will actually get the move (Since nobody would put it past gamefreak to fuck around with stuff like that during the pre-home purgatory)
Last Respect would be broken on any pokemon
Well, if primeape not being broken is enough to keep Rage Fist from being banned, then the same would likely apply to Last Respects, which is also learned by basculin, which is a NFE that doesn't get STAB or adaptability on Last Respects without needing to use tera on it.
edit: so, apparently last respects got banned
People are just like "wow what a surprise" but ultimately the idea of Baton Passing substitutes (especially in the older generations when it was still legal) was considered a form of "fair" Baton Pass strategy - passing other effects, including substitutes, was not considered as high power as passing stats, and ultimately that's still true. That's part of the reason that Shed Tail got a couple months and not immediately banned on sight. If it *was* as strong as Baton Pass by itself in Singles, it would've been treated as such. People massively either overrate the effect or underrate the sheer utility of Baton Pass when this was far from the strongest thing it could do, but when people have played without it legal for a long time I could see how that happens.
Honestly with all the move specific power creep in Gen 9, I'm waiting for the inevitable day that Revival Blessing gets the axe too. Rage Fist seems to be the only one of the major ones still around... on Primeape.
blessing is literally not good lol, pawmot is mediocre and deemed healthy for uu, it's stats were really not for ou (iron hands is a far better pokemon in ou)
@@plhbuschannel The ability to use Revival Blessing multiple times on end literally killed something past Ubers in terms of power level. Take a look at what Cress' Lunar Dance can do with Revival Blessing and get back to me. At the very least, once HOME drops, expect to see it gone.
Rev blessing is fine. It's only on weaker mons, and a 50% revive generally doesn't do all that much on the most threatening pokemon in the meta. They all like having hp to live priority, take chip, and/or set up. Overall, it's honestly quite well implemented.
before SV released people in the OU room were calling it a noob trap. Then we realized Cyclizar got regenerator, and fast forward a couple months later and then a non-regenerator mon was breaking the game with shed tail.
The opposite thing happened with revival blessing, people thought this would send mons to Ubers or turn them into OU staples, but the best user sits at UU currently where it may not always run RB and the other user is all the way down in PU. After people started using RB, there was never any talk to ban the move, and the only thing that has been banned so far is revivecats in natdex. I personally don't think RB will ever be banned because as the video said you need to prove that it breaks most mons, and pawmot and rabsca are not only balanced users of RB, they're not even that great. The only great user of something like RB would be an incredibly bulky mon that can consistently use it for free and somehow not be dead weight with its remaining 3 moveslots. Even then, the "golden age" of RB in OU was when things like chi-yu and annihilape were in OU, mons that were significantly above the power level of "baseline" OU and thus worth reviving at the expense of having to use Pawmot. We may see something like a "Ditto theorem" in the future where RB usage spikes near the start of a meta when broken mons haven't yet been banned to ubers.
@@doomknightsepulchure Revival Blessing is definitely not broken in a form where it can't be recurred, hence why it only has 1 PP in the first place. Obviously if it had more uses I think people would greed for it more on Pawmot and Rabsca but it's true that it doesn't destroy the game by itself. Otherwise we would have a Shed Tail situation, as you've said.
The issue is that recursion could be pretty easy to do in more ways than just Assist (for one thing, it's Sleep Talk callable, but I don't think that's the best either for obvious reasons), but I think time will tell whether or not those recursion methods are enough to make it uncompetitive. It's worth keeping in mind as more methods are discovered though that Revive Cats isn't a one time issue. If there are more ways to repeat it (with Lunar Dance through HOME on the horizon being one), then I think it will be banned, but for competitiveness and not sheer power. Shed Tail was too strong in its fairest form, evidently.
Game Freak really upped the ante with signature moves for Gen 9, with nearly every new Pokemon getting one of their own (thankfully excluding the Paradox Pokemon). It was inevitable that a couple would end up way overtuned like Shed Tail and Last Respects, and since they just so happen to also be given to more than one Pokemon (or will be given in Last Respects' case), they warrant the ban over their users.
Ngl, last respects is definitely going to get banned once Basculegion comes out (I believe they get Last Respects).
complex bans is the way to go. Smogon just follows the set designs that pokemon have as if gamefreak/nintendo gave a single fuck about competitive balance. They just introduce mechanics cause they look cool and that will cause the game to sell, that's it
they told us they were cutting half the pokedex to focus on balance
then they gave us dracovish
If you start with complex bans, you'd essentially have to put every single uber down to ou with a set of restrictions. You don't want to open that box, thus no complex bans.
Complex bans aren't the way to go. See the utter mess that is gen 5 ou
Proud to be one of those saying that shed tail is broken and they should've banned the move back when they banned cyclizar 🗣🔥🔥🔥
9 months ago I watched that "competitive play trailer" where game freak revealed this move and immediately knew it was gonna get banned lmao
I think Shed Tail, after Baton Pass and any "broken" move shared between similar users, is a perfect example of when a move instead of a Pokémon should be banned. Yes, Orthworm had basically 0 usage thanks to Cyclizar. But that's the catch. Banning Cyclizar was begging the question if Orthworm would be close to or as broken as it. And history gave us the answer. Similarly, I "look forward" to the day Basculegion becomes legal to use as it will reintroduce Last Respect into the meta game. The ingredients are all there. Higher Speed (on both) and higher Attack Stat (on male) than Houndstone together with Swift Swim instead of Sand Rush. The meta game has changed since with the introduction of Walking Wake, Iron Leaves and some Starters and it will change a whole lot more thanks to all the other Pokémon that come together with Basculegion. But that will only mean that Houndstone might be reexamined should Basculegion and its 300 Power Last Respect are not banned. In contrast, banning Annihilape from OU to Ubers made more sense instead of a blanket Rage Fist ban since it is the only legal user of the Move. Yes, Shed Tail, Last Respect, and Rage Fist are key aspects of their respective users, but only one is truly unique. In the other two instances, we are asking players to find ways to still break the game. We will see how successful they are with Pokémon Home integration.
Nice explaination video! Didn't know any of the moves mentionned but the little boxes + the explainations made it easy to follow!
we're probably gonna see something similar 'soon' (pokemon home moment) with basculegion learning last respects. if you take away last respects then basculegion would likely be an ou staple, the male form having no reliable physical ghost stab and the female form relying on surf over wave crash which would prevent them being broken, but they'd be excellent rain abusers compared to the current floatzel golduck core and outside of rain a scarf adaptability set could work on either, or just use them as bulky wallbreakers. it'd be a shame to ban them both to ubers, and honestly it's really annoying playing ubers where every team needs a houndstone counter (since you need ghost immunity, to outspeed it or a one shot priority move it can't tera to resist) so scarf/rain basculegion would probably be too broken for ubers and then we'd have gen 9 ag with nothing but basculegion lol
The main issue I've heard about with last respects is that it's not learned by just houndstone and basculegion, but also basculin (since it's an egg move.) I believe this is the same reason annihilape is banned instead of Rage Fist, since primeape also gets rage fist and isn't overpowered with it.
edit: didn't realize last respects just got banned lmao
I am pretty sure that if a strong pokemon like garchomp had access to revival blessing then this pokemon would be banned.
The only reason why that move remains legal is because the 2 pokemon with access to it aren't that good.
I would still expect Cyclizar to have good use on stall teams for the same reason it had usage there beforehand. Spin, Knock and U Turn are amazing utility moves that don't need you to use a status move, so if you're doubling up on hazard control, you can go AV for added bulk instead of HDB. The unique typing lets it take on unconventional offensive combos too, like Water, Electric or Fire alongside Ghost types. Not an OU mon, but a UU/RU mon with an OU niche. Not terrible.
Orthworm IS terrible tho
I still think Last Respects should have been banned instead of Houndstone because it's going to end up happening anyway once we can bring Basculegion over. Even if your system is designed around banning pokemon and not parts of them when the problem is very clearly the move and not the pokemon and when you know it is a move you will end up banning on the long run anyway you might as well just get on with it
Honestly the pre-emptive Last Respects ban surprised me; I thought they would have at least entertained how powerful (or weak) Last Respects Basculin-White-Striped would be with the move, but they just cut off the route entirely.
You said every pokemon that gets baton pass will be broken. I wanna see something like magikarp get baton pass now
Look at PIMPNITE's "Epic Sweep" series. Every sweep from a trash Pokémon involves some kind of stat boost passing via Baton Pass. Magikarp only needs to be the receiver of those boosts, not to learn the move itself.
@@enoyna1001 I know, I’ve done that. If karp is given a sub, it’s gonna suck. OP said any Pokemon who gets shed tail is auto broken, I wanna see karp or feebas get it
And now last respects is banned before home is even out
no shit it's banned wtf
I recognized so few pokemon lol, it’s been a while
Yet another flaw in GameFreak's recent easy way of "balance" by giving signature moves to each pokémon instead of a more proper way. One could argue that smogon tiers aren't part of the official game, but there you end up with some pokémon that do just 1 thing. TBH, that's the way pokémon is turning into digimon, much more than some whiners say about models design.
Well I mean hey it removes overlap at least
Shed Tail 🤝 Last Respects
Moves that were the sole reason Pokémon got banned to Ubers, before they got banned and their users unbanned just because of how much they carried any Pokémon with access to them.
4:58 What would be wrong with this approach? It could allow for more flexibility to create a healthy and varied metagame
Generally the idea is to change as little as possible from the games and only ban things as nessasary. Removing moves from pokemon doesn't align with that goal. It also opens a Pandoras box of having to balance every single pokemon to be in ou and flattening everything.
That's not pokemon at that point. Pokemon are designed to have certain moves, stats, and abilities. If they are too good where the game isn't fun, just don't allow those. Removing what makes mons unique simplifies the game to a boring state. It would also be incredibly time consuming, controversial, and arbitrary. What power level is okay? What do you do when a mon is better than another (which is ALWAYS going to end up happening)? The idea of competitive singles is to simply play 6v6 with the minimum amount of broken things banned for the game to have a balanced meta where the better player will win most of the time and the game isn't centralized around any small group of overwhelming threats.
@@Peacock__ at that point, you can try to limit ANY Ubers Pokémon with their own "specific complex bans" such that they become manageable for OU, which is a huge slippery slope no one that even has the foresight to see how messy this would be wants to get into.
My gratified ass who was anti-Shed Tail since Day 1: *smuggly drinks coffee*
How does the situation now that there is a new Shed Tail user?
It shares the same Base HP, is just 1 point slower than Cyclizar, but has better offensive stats
Editing and scripting are onnnn poooooinnttt
I disagree to the policy of avoiding complex bans, in one specific situation. For example, if a mon is broken for UU/RU due to 1 move/ability, it should be banned entirely.
However, for Ubers, i agree on complex banning to send a mon back to OU. The goal of tiering is to make every mon has a tier to be usable. However like the exceptions for Baton Pass and Trapping Abilitys, i think it has to be a rule for those types of situation. If a mon is banned, get some complex banned and still are overpowered, it would not be back to OU, the mon as a whole should be banned. Also, if the thing making it broken cannot be taken away, like for example, if a mon is broken due to Protosynthesis/Quark Drive boosts, then the mon should be banned because there is no way to balance them, you can't remove those abilitys from the mon as all mons that have the ability have them as the only ability
I always has been a "Ban move instead of the Pokémon if the move is broken" advocate, so it was interesting to hear the "Ban Pokémon instead of the move" side.
Outside of signature moves that's rarely possible though, as few moves are op on multiple mons.
Lot of people here seem to be under some misconceptions. Gamefreak/Nintendo don't consider balance when they make these games, these games are not inherently competitive, that's why groups like Smogon exist in the first place.
It can be hard to remember when in a competitive group like this, but it's quite small compared to the number of people who don't play competitively. Don't expect things to ever be balanced for competitive, if they were, we wouldn't need Smogon.
I understand smogon's thought process, but I will disagree with the concept of complex bans. At the end of the day, we just wanna have fun, and I feel like using annihalape in OU an DC letting others use it without Rage fist would be more fun than throwing annihalape in Ubers.
Of course, that's just an opinion of mine, and smogon is the authority, not me.
-arrive
-shed tail
-destroy meta
-refuse to elaborate
-leave
"They aren't expected to be good"
How dare you, apologize to Orthworm, the local Perzerker's Pub Dog right now.
Wow, shocking, the move everyone complained was the real reason for Cyclizar being broken, was, indeed, the thing that made it broken, and so is last respects on Houndstone...
Sounds like someone either didn't watch the full video yet or didn't care to.
They have, in fact, changed the ban to Last Respects rather than Houndstone. But go off bestie slay
@@exa_eille actually it doesn’t go into effect until home sweaty
@@TwoBsTwoTs Yeah, but the decision still already seems to be made. I get the argument made in the video, but especially with something like Houndstone, something so middling through and through, it seemed so obvious that LR clearly was the problem, and the same with Shed Tail on these two. It felt like someone taped a flamethrower to a cat, and then said: "No, it's not the Flamethrower that kills people, it's the entire package..."
@@melindamuller4466 but that's the point of Pokémon, most Pokémon have one thing that could be nerfed to make them less broken. What's the point of houndstone without last respects? Should all Ubers Pokémon just be watered down until they don't have to be banned anymore?
Like did none of you even finish the video...
IT'S ORTHWOVER
Imagine if Koraidon and Miraidon got Shed Tail since they're the Paradoxical relatives of Cyclizar
The explanation about the thought process behind Smogon bans was very enlightening!
"He can't keep getting away with it!" - Jesse Pinkman
Freezai: Shed Tail is like Baton Pass and Substitute.
Also Freezai: Shed Tail doesn't so the main thing Baton Pass does, pass stats.
I'm not gonna lie... I'm not even THAT into pokemon, but when I saw that move I was almost sure it was going to be broken
Game Freak loves hyper offense
I knew it would get banned the moment it was revealed
Smogon players are such big babies that they ban mons before they’re even in the game and they ban moves now smh
People saying the dex cut was for balancing are on s*icide watch.
Could you do a video on shadow tag across generations? I see it's banned in some Ubers formats but not all and I don't really see why
don't worry, later it will be substitute+switch+ +2 to all stat in one move
So Smogon doesn’t like banning parts of Pokémon, except when they do just that… if another Pokémon comes out with last rites, that Pokémon will be broken too. To me this just shows that Smogon is stubborn and lacks foresight.
Wht makes you think they don't like doing that? Generally whenever a move, ability, item etc. is broken on multiple mons, then it gets banned. If something is strong on one mon but harmless on every other mon, then the mon gets banned.
Ur reasoning as to why smogon only ban pokemon and not moves doesnt hold up, especially when you take the stupid exemple of "just ban hydro pump on iron bundle then" because hydro pump is not a signature move first of all, and it can be replaced by amny other strong water attack anyway.
And pkmn are not just define by their signature move anyway i'm sure alot of ppl would want to play anihilape without rage fist in lower tier.
Primeape with Rage fist exists though, and it is a low tier mon.
I think one of the best examples to explain the ban system is zygarde-50 in gen7, who had a strong signature ability in power construct and a powerful signature move in thousand arrows.
However Zygarde-10 also existed and had access to both of these.
With Power Construct it was utterly broken on Zygarde-10 too, so as it was banned as an ability. Thousand Arrows Zygarde-50 was broken but Zygarde-10 was mid even with Thousand Arrows, so it's not that the move is broken, it just pushed the already strong Zygarde-50 over the edge and so Zygarde-50 got banned.
Also it doesn't matter whether a move is a signature move at all.
>Ban Shed tail
>Claims neither pokemon will be good
>Refuses to elaborate futher
>Leave
Shed tail is just gonna be auto banned each gen like shadow tag and arena trap
i bet the next gen will give the box legendary a move that hits with 100 BP (50% up in doubles), lowers their stats while raising yours by one as things are going. also, hits both oponents.
Gen 11's box legendaries have Dark type moves that will OHKO the opponent if they aren't Dark types
@@rjante2236 and one of them will be really fast with fairy and fighting coverage, while the other will be really slow but a little bulky
I wonder if sceptile would of been banned if it was able to use shed tail
I mean this was predictable. It's literally a variant on Baton Pass that is viably good. I'm shocked they haven't banned it immediately from the get-go.
5:45 Which also will change soon enough, due to Basculegion coming to the play. Most likely ending with Houndstone being reinstated and Last Respects getting banned.
I predicted this would happen back when Cyclizar was first banned, some people doubted that Orthworm would be good with shed tail, but it did. And Orthworm could technically get the Shed Tail up multiple times in a game because it had the unique ability earth eater, a ground-type water absorb, so if you switched it into a choice-locked earthquake, for example, you were good to go.
Baton pass was already considered to be the most overpowered move in the game, but combining that with substitute in one move? Yeah...that's broken as hell no matter who uses it.
Also, the ending "neither pokemon are expected to be good anymore" lol, no shit. Just like Dugtrio without arena trap.
The game wasn't even out and I knew this move would be beyond broken. It's like Urshifu and zacian-c in "did they not think this through?"
It only needed to break it once had they done the ban correctly to start, like with Last Respects if that causes issues with Basculegion and such
I do not say hindsight is 20/20 here as some of us just had foresight that the move would prove to be the actual issue. It's if anything begrudging vindication
It is a shame that restricting an entire pokemon instead of doing a complex ban reduces options when teambuilding. For instance, someone may want to use Annihilape for its unique Fighting/Ghost typing, decent bulk or the defiant ability. But they are incapable of doing so as Annihilape is still prohibited regardless of if it has rage fist or not.
Jesus can we have the clip of the dude looking at his hand more
Basculegion time
Nah, they already announced they're gonna ban Last Respects instead of Houndstone when HOME is updated ;-;
I already said it in the last video but thank you for reverting to usual talking speed and not talking super fast like in the greninja vid 🙏
Great video. I think it is important to point out underlying reasons for these decisions that apply to a much broader group of pokemon as it is to focus on the pokemon in question. Keep it up!
i remember people claiming it was stupid when it first come out, who'd think it ended up good enough to be banned
I literally said to myself that Shed Tail would be busted in competitive the second I saw it in the trailer. And lo and behold, it gets banned not too long after release.
The issue i saw with Shed Tail... Idiots use CHOICE SCARF to use Shed Tail
That iron bundle hydro pump comparison was the weakest comparison ever. Hydro pump isn't a broken move, iron bundle is a broken mon. Rage fist, last respects and shed tail are broken moves. The mons who get them are mid at best without them. That was disingenuous as hell. Freezai
It's a fair comparison. Removing any part of a mon unless in a situation where there is proof that it is purely the part that is broken is fundamentally changing the rules of pokemon. Rage fist is not broken because it's fine on a mon with worse bulk and no stab on it. Shed tail would also most likely be fine on a very weak mon but that doesn't exist and so it's broken in all current scenarios right now. Removing something like last respects isn't any different from removing hydro pump or ice beam from bundle, it's just removing the main thing the mon does.
Primeape has access to Rage Fist and isn’t tearing up OU so where are you getting the Rage Fist is a definitely broken move from? The point Freezai was making was that in most cases removing parts of a Pokémon is problematic for the concept of tiering. He could’ve said something like banning Double Iron Bash or Wicked Blow and the same point would’ve come across.
The point is that you can limit ANY Ubers Pokémon to the point that they become manageable for OU. Removing either one of Hydro Pump or Freeze-Dry from Iron Bundle would remove its ability to smack the entire meta for devastating neutral damage, making it not banworthy anymore. Or you could remove either one of Stored Power or Speed Boost from Espathra. Or removing Jet Punch from Palafin, etc etc etc. There are COUNTLESS suggestions for limiting any Ubers Pokémon to not be broken anymore, and if you wanted to be really drastic, you can even start applying this logic to Koraidon and Miraidon.
Dude this videos quality was top notch awesome editing great explanation 10/10 video
I'd love to see a video talking about Chinese EV spreads with some examples
Next gen we will have a baton pass with screens and Ou will burn for month before the ban
That pimpnite clip was a good magicarp sweep I think it’s the first one
any news on Last Respects Basculegion?
Basculegion is long since allowed since Last Respects is banned now.
Both shed tail and last respects are going to be banned when home comes out. I don't understand why rage fist doesn't get the same treatment. It's clearly the move being broken.
Both shed tail and last respect are broken on any mon that gets it, while Rage Fist is very tame on Primeape.
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 I'm sure if shed tail was on a nfe it wouldnt be broken on that pokemon. Any pokemon with decent defense would be broken with ragefist. Imagine a corv with a 300bp ghost type move.
@@neored6411 that's exactly the point. Move distribution is actually a legitimate point in balancing a move. Imagine Boomburst having a more widespread distrubution, including on -ate stuff like Sylveon or in former generations Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria. Boomburst would instantly end up as one of the most broken moves, but right now Swellow is its best user with a mere 75 special attack, and that's why Boomburst is fine despite being utterly gamebreaking on paper.
There are a lot of broken moves on paper that are balanced out by their distribution. Just look at the STABmons banlist, where moves like Extremespeed, Fillet Away, Belly Drum, No Retreat and Gigaton Hammer are all banned simply because they are genuinely broken moves held back by their distribution. Imagine giving Extremespeed to a bulky Belly Drum user like Snorlax, that would instantly break the game too. As such yeah, Rage Fist as a move is fine if all the mons that get it are frail enough, and even Last Respects would be fine if it was exclusively given to slow mons as you wouldn't want to sacrifice 5 mons only to then start a slow sweep that has to take on 6 mons that outspeed it.
shed tail is a move anyone could see is uncompetitive from the get-go
Just saying, it was orthworm that was worse, because pivoting with sub after getting hit is even more busted
Honestly, the substitute should be made to match the typing and stats of the Pokémon that created it, not of the one that switched in. Not only would that make more in-game sense, it would remove the unpredictability of the substitute changing types mid-switch, thus making Shed Tail more balanced.
A buff to shed tail is more likely
i like baton pass quite alot
Generally if most Pokémon with a move/ability (that isn’t signature) are banned mainly from that move/ability, then they ban that move/ability instead. Eg: they didn’t ban last respects because only houndstone had it, but with basculegeon coming they would probably ban last respects instead.
There is no "generally" here. With Gen 9 it is the first time a signature move was the problem.
I can't exactly pinpoint why, but somehow the placing of the video seems a bit off to me in the first few minutes. You had a good intro within the first 40 seconds, but the video somewhat lost me until you started talking about the individual pokemon and the way Showdown uses bans at about ~3min.
wow, it’s almost like shed tail was the problem from the jump, like the community said it was! but something something muh complex bans
and yet, here we are :^)
Yeah you're just acting dumb. The reasons why it was handled that way are very sound and reasonable.
Idk what this is implying; there were no complex bans from start to finish
You can't know that for sure. Look at Speed Boost Blaziken who was Ubers for three Generations, then suddenly dropped to (technically) OU because it wasn't broken anymore for the standard metagame. Look at Hoopa Unbound which was Ubers just for one generation with its insane offensive stats. It's really complex to decide what is broken and what is not without context (real battles taking place).
And banning Shed Tail still isn't a complex ban? Do you actually know what a complex ban is?
pretty sure a "complex ban" would have been banning, say, shed tail on *only* cyclizar and letting orthworm still use it.