How SMT: Nocturne's Freedom Ending Embodies the Theme
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2020
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An immediate like from me! Everyone and their mom loves the True Demon Ending because you get to “punch God in the face”, but my heart belongs to the Freedom Ending. It might not end in Demi-fiend going off to kill God like a total badass Antichrist, but it’s about choosing your own path and not being motivated by power or fear of existential consequences. You don’t sacrifice your humanity, you undo the apocalypse, and you still have the power to punch-out any god that wants to fuck with you. Lucifer even supports your choice to follow your own path, and that’s badass in and of itself.
Fun fact: Hijiri comes back to life in the Freedom Ending. If he really is who we all suspect he is, then that means this ending is the first time in a long time he’s been allowed to live truly free.
wrong, everything will still go to shit, simply because it is Neutral, and that will never lead to true freedom, or true peace. Sorry Hijiri....
@@mattf.868 Which is why Lucifer recommended that he keep his powers to be ready for when YHVH/ or Kagutsuchi comes for him after buying some time with this ending.
@@KazShiro not like Demifiend will be around for the 2nd conception anyways, so yeah, nothing accomplished.
@@mattf.868 Yknow, that same type of moment applies to SJ's original nuetral route. But then again nothing would really be accomplsihed in any other route/reasons either because another conception would occur later on in the future.
@@KazShiro oh no, I meant that Hikawa would try to do it again, and Demifiend would be dead. In the other routes there's no reason for a conception to ever occur, until that world ends. And it can't happen in the demon or True demon routes, because there's no world to end.
I find the TDE "cool" and "fun," and enjoy that it adds a fun boss fight at the end. But I value the freedom ending more, because how it tends to fit more toward the typical themes that MegaTen imbibe, such as putting the future into human hands instead of god or demons.
Its not in humans hands tho lmao. God still runs the show 😅
Didn't the world just revert back before the conception started? Gods and demons still exist and the conception will still occur at some point in the future.
@@anphans4238 unless you who are still the demifiend do something to change things lucifer left you your powers as he said it would occur again unless humans change
I completely agree with this video. The freedom ending just suits the story of the game better than the demon ending.
I agree with the freedom ending also
The4thsnake bein a dick calling people cowards for going true demon
Especially since it ends up with a boss that isn't in the other endings, its also more or less a factually inaccurate word to use.
Even more, this is a more deep ending because you must Reject Lucifers proposal even if it looks cool, because of it is kind of a secret ending, because you did something aganist the common sense
I mean every ending is canon thanks to the Amala Network existing. In SMT IV and SMT IV: Apocalypse they even show alternate timelines exist. Just some get expanded upon and others don't. But I guess down to the real topic here.
Does, SMT: Nocturne's Freedom ending embody the theme?
Well, yes and no choice is important in the SMT series. Yes, but ultimately Lucifer just enjoys freedom. That's why he wants to end all of existence cause that would be the ultimate act of freedom in his eyes. Breaking away from an ever looping cycle of death and rebirth.
Now you could say, does that make the other choices bad since you are encouraging the cycle to continue. Not really, I'm pretty sure the Axiom wants the Amala Network to continue as well for its own reasons. After all, the Axiom is neutral in terms of alignment and something bigger than God.
SMT is about choice no matter how you look at it. Humanity's ability to be able to side with Lucifer, God, themselves, or the rest of humanity. That is SMT.
> After all, the Axiom is neutral in terms of alignment and something bigger than God.
You're projecting IVA's lore onto Nocturne as if they were written to form a cohesive and coherent universe.
They weren't.
@@2tehnik The Axiom/The Great Will has around since Megami Tensei II and Shin Megami Tensei II. (Not that you particularly care I know) Not all SMT games share one particular timeline or share one universe particular existing in a multiverse. It wasn't fully thought out, but over time it ended up being a thing.
SMT, has always had themes, ideas, and concepts built upon one another over time and relooked at. Think of it, like Marvel's universe. Not all of Marvel's heroes were meant to exist in the same universe, but over time they did because of other writers reworking things and building upon things.
It's sorta how these things work. Hell, Stephen King didn't even intend to make a universe/multiverse out of his books it just ended up happening by mistake for him because a lot of similar ideas kept on popping into his head and similar characters kept on recurring. Creativity isn't clean, it isn't always organized, and isn't always 100% thought out.
What matters is how they built upon the concept.
@@raffleslovecraftfriends8375
>SMT, has always had themes, ideas, and concepts built upon one another over time and relooked at. Think of it, like Marvel's universe. Not all of Marvel's heroes were meant to exist in the same universe, but over time they did because of other writers reworking things and building upon things.
Exactly, which is why I said that there's a clear difference between IVA's axiom and III's great will. In that the former is neutral while the latter is more-so law.
Funny. I totally like that ending, too. But for none of the good reasons you said. I took that route out of spite.
Hikawa started this and he tried to kill me in the beginning. I still owed him for that. I wanted to wreck his shit. That means ending the Conception.
The school kids reject any notion of friendship you can offer. Trust me, I tried. When it came time to choose, they already made the choice for me, and lost their shot.
And Lucy was the reason that I can't make my own reason. Why should I reward that punk for that?
So, since I didn't get to choose, no one else could either.
True Freedom to destroy their plans.
True plus really when you think about it. It still Hikawa and Lucy fault. So why should you reward them at all. Wreck there plans.
Lucifer actually approved of the freedom ending
@@jackour8167 You must remember it better than I. Maybe. I don't know. 🙃
@@yuukitenjouin5790 lucifer approved because you rebelled against god and him, ecstatic about the rebelling against god part, absolutely fucking impressed that you decided to rebel against him.
Pretty based.
Like a man of action said: *”Sometimes, you gotta have a little faith.”*
Fitting for what I think to be the best ending, despite not being canon.
I thought the Freedom Ending was Neutral. I agree that the Reasons represent Law & the other represent Chaos but Freedom seemed to be in the middle. This is because the Kagasutchi still creates the world you desire but YHVH will hunt the player down for picking this ending. Also Lucifer likes this ending too.
Nothing like pissing off YHWH by choosing humanity.
The Freedom Ending embodies the theme of the entire SMT series: FUCK THE SYSTEM
Me and The bug Inside
Fully agree
;) hee-ho
More like it's embody the theme of Neutral: HUMANITY RULED FUCK THE GOD AND DEMON.
SMT is ultimately a story about how radical ideologies are damaging and trusting humanity.
Choice is always present and I feel it's important in order to make it so much easier to stray from your own path or to showcase how thoroughly damaging those choices can be when balance is not taken in account.
Law is both about order, rules, control and believing humanity cannot progress as long as they're free.
Chaos is about freedom and following your every whim, taking any restraint as a limitation of self.
Neutral, however, is understanding that life is about striking a difficult balance between understanding that personal freedom is important, but not at the cost of others' freedom and well-being.
The freedom ending while very Chaos oriented by rejecting god's will, still represents well the neutral path as, even though lucifer congratulates you, he revels in you making your own choice to reject him.
To me, the Freedom ending was the hardest to take not for gameplay reasons, but because of what it represents. Rejecting the reasons was easy, but keeping a strong hope after such a disheartening journey can be tough. Lucifer offers easy power, while the Reasons offer easy closure. The world I yearned for however was very different and it took a lot of fortitude to take it.
I think it's interesting because I see a lot of the people who prefer the TDE and it strikes me as... I think the word is Cynical.
Those who choose the freedom ending are the ones who believe in humanity and choose to give it free will, even if that means risking another conception. That's kind of both the hardship and the entire point of trust is: If you only trust someone when they can't disappoint you or choose something you wouldn't like, you don't trust them, you just want them well behaved.
Those who choose the TDE did it either because of the extra gameplay, because they REALLY want to punch god in the face or because they agree with Lucifer on stopping the cycle. The first one is videogamey reasons and I can only HOPE they don't personally agree with that. The second one is like holding the biggest grudge ever and the final one is just worrying to me. Willfully taking the TDE ultimately entails in saying "The world was a mistake, let's get rid of that to punch god in the face". Revenge is a bit petty, but at least I can see where it's coming from, but coming to the conclusion that "Humanity is better off dead" feels inherently disturbing to me.
Writing this, it makes a disturbing amount of sense how to follow this path you forfeit your humanity in game, while ideologically picking this ending means you forfeit all hope in humanity. Instead that on Law you believe humans should behave like cattle, here you believe humans are too stupid to live and are better off gone.
I would rather argue that Law is the piece of humanity that decides to submit themselves to God's will and never actually sacrificing any freedom. Discipline is freedom, which is shown that the absence of discipline is slavery as stated in the scripture Romans 6:17-18 "but God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18. Being then made free from sin, ye have become servants of righteousness"
The demon ending is the most popular one simply because anyone who plays this game wants a real challenge in the first place,and the demon ending is the hardest with the last fight with Lucifer
Finally someone who gets it and understands your not being truly free by immediately submitting to another master and it's why Lucifer respects you for defying him and god at the end of the game because it was your choice not what the other forces put on you. You chose to defy and stay in the old world to fight for your freedom not become Lucifer's lacky, not be gods submissive subject. I love the freedom ending because it truly feels like the demifiend in this ending is making the choice to say both your plans suck screw you two and your plans for me im going my own way for what I believe in despite how many enemies I'll make. Im not your slave God and I'm not your sheep Lucifer I'm free and I'm gonna fight for it. It's so awesome and yet it's so unsatisfying to most people which really is sad
Ah yes, that one game that featured Dante from the Devil May Cry series.
The real DMC2.
Finally an intellectual, I never understood all of that Lucifer simping going on, instead of saving the only people you actually care about being your friends and teacher and getting your life back that was taken from you
Saving the same people who try and kill you because they think they're more fit for creating a world isn't something i'd call intellectual, more self destructive. It's nice to have a "Happy ever after" ending, but i feel that everything you've gone through, plus Lucifer basicaly saving your life during the conception, is something i'm more thankfull for then the people who claim to be my friends at the start to not join me, try to manipulate me into joining their twisted cause and eventually try and murder me because i have a different outlook on life and claim it's my fault they got transported to the Vortex World. It has nothing to do with simping, more about being reasonable. Like forming your own reason...like the game wants you to do. That's how i see it.
@@dutchielander2478 >trusting a completely shady fallen angel over long time friends is reasonable
kek
Freedom ending was always my favorite i'm glad that someone shares the same opinion
It warms my heart to hear more people talk about the freedom ending and how that definitely feels like how the game is leading up to. I am a neutral SMT scrub because most of the time I am the type of guy who would not want demons to try to basically make the world chaotic or angels to try to rule the world by making everyone into obedient sheep. I'd rather let humanity be free to choose their own path rather than have 1 or 2 gods try to rule what they want. Very good video mad that I missed it and 2 things: Oh yeah when the series did became also waifus, I will not be surprised if persona 5 scramble decides yeah let's give some of the girls dynasty Warriors outfits. And speaking of dynasty Warriors romance of the 3 reasons sound like a pretty cool SMT spin off game. Anyway great job!
I agree with this. I have a fan made Persona story where the three ending ideas are basically what you'd expect, force change, destroy all or do nothing, the only real difference is that one of the other characters already chose 'do nothing's five years prior to leave the world to humanity, so this time, he wants to choose 'destroy all's but can't because he is no longer the wild card this time around, so he's basically grooming the current wild card to choose 'destroy all'.
Persona ain't about philosophy it's more interpersonal relationships plus only door kun is shown to have that kinda power all the other wildcards can just reject God's will only door kun shown to not only reject god will but in force on to it
@@samuraibear5102 I'd say a lot of it is about philosophy, but yah it is easily more about relationships. But I mean, P4 is about ascension and P5 is about rebellion and freedom, in P5 you don't only have the idea that you can (by the end of the game) keep being awesome at the cost of free will, or rebel against control for freedom, you also get the idea that in Royal, you could accept a deal to have literally all your dreams come true, including having all your loved ones brought back to life (I took that deal myself lol). Or you can rebel against a truly happy world in exchange for freedom. I'd say there's a lot of philosophy in P5 at least.
in my opinion, every ending is valid. SMT games are generally designed for all of the endings to be seen, at least if you want the full scope of the story.
I’m a huge Shin Megami Tensei fan and I hadn’t even considered endings other than True Demon to be the “real” one. Very eye opening video as always 👍
This is really interesting! I got into the series with Persona 4 on Steam, so hearing about the main series with your analytical eye is really enjoyable. I wouldn’t mind you talking about SMT some more, could be a way to broaden your fanbase and maybe help spread some love to some of the lesser loved entries in the series.
Hoy, if u have a mid tier PC i could send u some roms of SMT games, like IV,Strange Journey, 3 (Tho there is a HD remaster with easy difficulty and Voice acting coming for 3/Nocturne :P)
Thanks! I don’t have a PC at the moment, but if I ever get one, I’d really appreciate that. I have most of the DS roms on my tablet and I think I’ll wait for the remaster to play Nocturne, but something like IV would be great. That’s really nice of you!
@@MrBloodlust94 for sure, answer here when you will need it.
@@MrBloodlust94 qell, then make sure to get a PC able to run 3DS roms on Citra, the 3DS emulator.
Try to get a rig like BuffMeister's at least. And if you do, also try SMT Strange Journey Redux.
Thank you for this video. I’ve always seen the freedom ending as Demi-Fiend just trusting his fellow humans that they will make the right decision and if they don’t then that’s on them and it’s not because God was just being a jerk. I know it’s seen as the coward ending but to me it’s an ending where a human just trusts the world to do the right thing..
Patrick PFC yeah it's the best one just living your life to be a good person is the best way to create a better world
trusting humanity will do the right thing is the worst decision you could ever make imo
The only coward ending is the normal Demon Ending. Where he lacks the will to chose any path.
@@patrickripleyiii134 but the world will just end again...
Yeah but you retain the powers of the demifiend in order to fight god again, does no one pay attention
you changed my thoughts on the freedom ending good vid big man
I'll admit, I've only ever done the True Demon Ending, not giving any other ending much thought. But this was a good eye opener, reminds me of the dynamic of the Light Side and the Dark Side in Star Wars; You'll live a tougher life as one with the Dark Side but ultimately it's an easy choice to make, whereas it takes great will power and dedication to be one with the Light Side. After thinking about it like that, the choice becomes more distinct.
For me I let humanity choose our own fate not some God or demon be dammed. If we end up destroying ourselves at least it was our own doing not some highest power whispering in our ear.
By killing God you give that same will lol. Like SMT4 when you kill YHWH that whole fight is basically taking away His powerful and telling it that humanity chooses not you. Etc
@@The_WIll_OF_D99 One of my favorite "is from asura's Wrath it at the end before he kills God and he says. There's always some fool's who wants to rule the world. All ways forcing others to do what they cannot do for themselves.
@@lonelywolf5659 YES that's why it's funny when they kill God they actually inherently give freedom to humanity. Asura's Wrath is a driving point to that lol.
Like in SMT killing God (smt2,3,4) killing him or going after him is the best outcome
Already liked the vid, and damn I’m glad someone else agrees that the Freedom Ending is best suited with its themes
This video actually got me thinking SMTV will take place after the freedom ending and, that demon in the trailer with the Protagonist is Demi-Fiend
It could or it could not be... I personally hope it's not, I don't want any smt protagonist to be tied to another
@@EA-bv8zk there a problem?
@@holyspectator3830 Having a direct connection to a former protagonist sorta just messes with the themes of the games they're from. Flynn in 4A is neat, but the game ultimately sorta implies offhandedly that the neutral ending of 4 is the "right choice." Like sure, given the multiverse concept existing in SMT you can argue all routes occur, but it just feels better to have every character be confined to their own game. Stuff like the 4A Messiah DLC is fine though.
@@ApexGale ok thanks for clearing that up
@@EA-bv8zk Reincarnation? Of a sort?
Who better to help restore the world than someone who did it before?
Dang, you just had to open my eyes that hard. *slow clap*
Tbh It's an interesting thought but if you know a lot about SMT you would actually know that this ending the (RUclipsr) made it's not truly accurate. Especially the fact the creators of SMT3 (the people who would know about the series more than anyone) knew The true ending for Demi-fiend is the true demon ending (or the demon ending)
There's a great irony in the idea that Chiaki's Reason of Yosuga is categorized under Law, and the game itself seems to embrace that irony as she employs Angels and Divine demons as her charges once she takes over the Mantra Demons. In practice, Yosuga is actually the most chaotic of the three given Reasons; a Machiavellian world where one must fight nonstop to assert their place or be crushed by someone stronger. Even once you reach the top, you cannot rest because you know that others will be biting at your ankles, and so a self-perpetuating cycle of violence and paranoia keeps the world in endless conflict.
I mean, the fact that Chiaki's reason is seen as valid by Kagutsuchi insinuates that order would be born out of her ideology. If the strong thrive, they would most likely form factions and groups to assert control. As such, there are only so many options you have.
1) Submit yourself to an existing faction. You follow the person in charge, and your life is entirely in their hands. Your services for their grace
2) Make use of your wits to avoid those stronger than you and drag down the ones weaker to eke out your own existence. This means the weak are culled and the fittest continue to thrive.
3) Absolutely dominate everyone and slay them all until there is barely anyone else.
In the end, order *will* be born from this Reason. Those who are not strong enough submit or die, and what remains is hegemony. Anarchy literally can't last because it creates a power vacuum. Yosuga would basically just lead to dictatorships. Amusingly enough, Chiaki's reason would just throw society back several thousand years and not much else.
Even if others are biting at your ankles, consolidation of violence means you will have disposable pawns to throw at your enemies and weaken them so you can finish them off. Eventually one faction would stand at the top and rule the world.
Was about to write a comment before watching the video, realized that was dumb, finished the comment, watched the video then saw that all of my points were exactly the same as yours and deleted it because of redundancy. Thanks Snake.
In my eyes the true demon ending was not about following Lucifer's will as much as the events of the story causing the Demi-fiend to have his own grudge against God and decided to go with Lucifer as a means to achieve his revenge against him
It reminds me of a combination of Naoya's route from Devil Survivor 1 and Dagda's route from SMTIV Apocalypse. Naoya's route because it's not about freedom or survival of the fittest so much as just punching YHVH in the face Spite against God is the primary motivation. .But it also has Dagda in it because the point is that the universe is fundamentally rigged. YHVH made it and it complies with his will and rules. The only way to really not play YHVH's game is to tip the game board over, destroy the universe, and start over.
I always thought of it as Naoki having a strong desire for power and Lucifer was somebody who promised him that
Same. Also this belief that EVERY SMT protagonist would choose Neutral/Freedom is unrealistic. People are vastly different and to think that every one of them would follow the same route destroys the individuality of people. To me Aleph is Law, it fits with is character and that is my canon and the general theme of the game. The Demi-Fiend fits with a more chaotic route. He watched his world get destroyed, then saw his friends turn on him as they chose to play the game of the world, and then he got informed that he is basically cursed unless he chooses someone else's Reason for a new world. Where is the freedom in that? Also where is the freedom in restoring the world to what it was? It is just the same system again. Everything starts again and you are still cursed. To me TDE just makes sense, because then DF can say screw this, I don't like this system, I'll go after the one who implemented it.
@@NikkolasKing Not quite. YHVH and the Great Will/Axiom are separate entities. You'll notice in Nocturne YHVH is never once referred to, but the Great Will is. And in the Anarchy route of 4A, the Great Will is still very much around and opposing Nanashi. All you have done in 4A is denied it of its control. Your brainwashed chosen friend/deity of Tokyo and Flynn will protect you from any Messiahs it sends to destroy you, and that's all we know. Will they be able to protect you forever? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the humans of the new world will eventually regain the power of observation in several millenia and we're back to square one. Maybe one of the future Messiahs succeeds at dethroning Nanashi as the creator god and restores the Great Will as the sole authoritative power over the universe. Who knows?
@@ApexGale Well I'm not particularly wild about Anarchy, anyway. I've only ever gone Peace because I love my anime friends. I was just giving my thoughts on what the endings represent, not voicing approval.
Although Naoya was the best.
It is true that ppl have this want to change the world assuming that they are capable and so on so forth.
Ive always like neutral because it shows that u arent afraid of the current world and dont show fear to the point u cant accept wat has happened and will chamge the world just so it in the end benefits u and make u feel good for like 2 seconds.
Even Yuko said in the ending she was scared of being hopeless for the world
But it was only for her thinking she was hopeless and can be taken as mistaken it for the world feeling hopeless. By answering with courage it showed that u can understand it wont be easy to move forward from ur feelings of hopelessness but u can do it.
Neutral imo is also sometimes another chance.
For this case 3 ppl wanted to change the world for a reason but simply having time again and being able to think about how u feel again can reward a 2nd chance.
Not everything needs an extreme change
But simply another perspective to see/think about and time to think about it.
I find it odd that people ignore the fact that Lucifer himself scolds you for picking TDE. In the Freedom Ending, you get the final message of, “You have chosen to follow your will and tread the path of thorns, like myself. In time, your true adversary will appear before you. Until that day, stay strong.” It is heavily implied that this message is from Lucifer, and he seems pleased with your decision. At the end of TD, you get the message, “You have created a new demon in your hearts likeness, fallen angel? Then doom shall set us apart, now and forevermore.” He himself is displeased, and I think this is meant to show that Lucifer doesn’t have any will of his own beyond an allegiance to humanity’s will. This is why he doesn’t interfere at all if you go with any of the reasons. Lucifer offers the True Demon ending as an option, but he himself is ambivalent towards it at best. In fact, it seems he is rather disgusted that you would let yourself be manipulated into it, rather than choosing another ending based on your own convictions. You have all the power you need to create a better world, but would rather destroy it all. TDE is not an embrace of freedom, but a rejection of it. What greater freedom is there than the freedom to create?
As one last point, one thing I haven’t seen brought up about those two Lucifer quotes is how they are worded. He says, “you have created a new demon in your hearts likeness.” YOU have created a new demon. In these messages, he is not speaking to the Demifiend, but to the player directly. I believe that when he speaks of you true adversary appearing someday, he is not referring to the Great Will coming after the Demifiend, but he is referring to the life of the player, and the struggles they will have to contend with in making their world better.
I believe Freedom was always the intended ending thematically. TDE didn’t even exist in the original release of the game. It is an offshoot of the regular Demon ending meant to show the consequences of rejecting the freedom of creation.
I would normally go for the Freedom ending simply because I don’t like the idea of killing off all the humans for the True Demon Ending. However there is one part of the True Demon Ending I would like to see in some way in other endings, the demons get a somewhat happy ending. In the freedom ending, sure humans get their world back, but Demons and Manikins lose their home because of it and the Manikins for sure deserve a chance at a peaceful existence. That’s why I thought up of an ending I like to call the True Freedom ending:
In order for a “divine” being like Kagesuchi (I’m probably gonna mess up the name a lot, sorry) to manipulate a place overflowing with the demon energy Magatsui (again probably gonna mess up that name a lot) he would need something like a Magatama (I think I got it right this time) to connect him to it. Though because he is “divine” he can’t actually touch it himself without getting hurt or losing power. So Demi-fiend after completing the Labyrinth of Amala chooses to keep his human heart despite being told it would hold him back because he realizes that as strong as being full demon would make him, it was him being a demon with a human heart that got him as far as he did. So when he faces Kagesuchi, he searches for this Magatama the “divine” being used and steals it from he before our favorite fiend strikes the final blow. Obviously due to his demon parts he can’t use it’s full power immediately, but he can use it to fuse all the Magatama into one single Magatama that would allow him full access to the power of creation. Demi-fiend uses this power to create a copy of the Vortex World which all the Demons and Manikins are then placed in and making it so that if YHVH wants to enter that particular world, he would have to first enter the copy Vortex World and kill the Demi-fiend before he could enter that human world; then he restores the original into the state it was in before the conception while allowing himself full access to him demonic powers. Like the true demon ending, he still becomes a general in Lucifer’s army against YHVH, but the Manikin still get to live out their days in peace, and he still gets to live as a human with his friends while also doing superhero work with his demon form (though every awful thing Isamu, Chikari and their teacher do weights on the Demi-fiend so much he eventually stops hanging out wit them because he can’t look at them without see what they had become in the Vortex World (though can you blame him, they were UGLY))!
Sorry if this is a little long, I’ve had a lot of time to think about this!
Video idea: Another Mk miskonceptions but on “Mk banned in Japan” I personally have seen LOTS of misinformation going around that needs some clear up
Eyy I found you again with this comment.
Herbály Zoltán you know me?
Now I get it, I completely understand where you're coming from, the demi fiend chooses to side with Yuko and restore everything to the way they were while having fate that humanity will make the right decisions down the line, my problem with this ending that nothing will change their we be another conception and it's just delaying the inevitable, just "having fate in humanity" isn't enough stop the conception, it will be an endless cycle. What's is why I think the true demon ending is the "best" ending and that ending also has problems, you are just following the will of Lucifer and not your own but that's this thing I love about Nocturne. All the endings are based on your decision and what you feel is the best ending even if some are easily scrutinize (chiaki) that doesn't change the fact that they are endings that you think is best.
That was longer then I thought, now no ones going to read it =(
Read it.
THE CORRECT TAKE. THIS RIGHT HERE FOLKS.
Although I wouldn't really say that following the will of Lucifer is a bad thing, if you CHOOSE to follow the will of Lucifer, it's still YOUR choice. A person can choose to follow the will or ideas of someone else to find purpose or success and that happens a lot in life, wouldn't you think? You aren't really being "tricked" or being put into "slavery" by Lucifer if you understand his full intentions and want to go with it. In Megaten you as the player and the Messiah is supposed to be you. The ball is in your court to perform the changes you want to see and you have the power to do so.
However I'd argue that picking the route that's "for humanity" in a game that already paints it in a heavily negative light since they can't do anything to stop the inevitable, is a failure of a person's general decision making skills and logistics. By being a fence sitter, rather than being a catalyst for major change.
I did!
; ) hee-ho
@@ils4844Except there is no “true” or “correct” choice.
It boils down to what the Individual values most.
Freedom ending gives humanity (and all the other species) time. That's worth a lot.
Years ago, I considered the Freedom ending as a cowards way of running from the main conflict.
But ever since the HD remaster, you get an achievement called "Old World, New Worldview"
And then I understood
While Nocturne isn't my favorite SMT game, I don't know if I have ever played a game as philosophical as Nocturne. The story and endings on a surface seem to be half baked, but the more you think about and read into them, the more you realize just how much there is in there. It's one of the few silent protagonist RPGs that I feel uses that format to the fullest, because it's really left entirely up to you how to go about changing or not changing the world and there really is no right answer.
On my first playthrough, I ended up siding with Hikawa. Not because I agreed with him, but because I legitimately couldn't beat Samael. I was young, so I wasn't gonna spend time grinding or fusing to beat him. So I ultimately just accepted his ideals to progress in the game, and his reason was the one I agreed least with.
That made the ending feel bittersweet, because the demi fiend really didn't end up having a choice, it was his own lack of power that caused the world to enter a state of eternal stillness. And that kind of pissed me off, so I immediately played through again, and when I got back to the final act and kicked Hikawa's ass it was such a satisfying feeling. I'm sure many other people have similarly unique experiences with how they thought about the game, and that's what makes it so cool.
I'm gonna name my Demi-Fiend Dante to make up for the absence of our favorite demon hunter.
This didn’t age that well I’d say.
It’s the only ending where you get the hoodie back, so it’s obviously the most valid
a valuable reminder
Yes, this is such a great take and completely aligns with my own read of the game. My Demi-Fiend sees the good in all of the Reasons, but also their flaws, and is unwilling to put himself at the mercy of any one of them. True Demon Ending would be the same - not just destroying the world itself (thematically the opposite of creation out of chaos), but being a slave to another.
Freedom is the Demi-Fiend keeping a Reason, in that sense, of the Conception, allowing for the contestation of ideas and growth in light of this conflict.
The reason why I enjoy the freedom ending is due to my own laziness and materialism.
People want to get rid of the cool shit in our world and I have to put in effort to help them?
Lucifer wants ME to leave the world to die and help fight YHVH?
FUCK THAT NOISE!
I just want to go home and chill with my friends. Y’know, something fun.
Geez, the whole world ends and everyone seems to forget about fun.
Thank god people are talking about this masterpiece
The Freedom ending is my favorite ending, so this vid was pretty cool.
I’ll never beat smt nocturne with anything other than the TDE but freedom is my favorite ending.
I think it's very depend on the narrative that lead to those ending. Just like how the narrative that leading to the Freedom Ending themed the story the way you said in the video, the narrative that leading to True Demon Ending themed that the story that there're times to do what's right, you needs to destroy and forsaken everythings.
The Freedom Ending is what I find the most satisfying conclusion of the game personally. While the three reasons show potential, the one thing that fits the most to me is leaving the world as it is. It is definitely giving God and Lucifer both the middle finger and allowing the world to continue evolving and changing on its own without one reason or another. It also to me sits best with the demi-fiend showing his rebellious nature and the free will he carries as a human despite the gifts Lucifer bestowed upon him as a demi. It really proves that despite what God did in this installment, and despite demi being what he is, he's still a human at the core and prefers (to me anyhow) to leave the world alone and keep the forces of demons and gods out of it.
I'm so glad someone pointed out that the TDE is just you being tricked into slavery again. This bothered me for years.
Now please do a video explaining why Silent Hill 2's "In Water" ending destroys the game.
Tricked into slavery? Who said the Demi-Fiend is Lucifer's slave? If you choose the Freedom ending, you are still cursed by God for going against His will and since you are human again, you will die and then you're soul will be at His mercy. Lucifer offers you freedom, he makes no demands from you. Not once in the game does he tell you what to do. In fact he keeps telling you, you are free to choose. So you can choose to ALLY with him. That is not slavery. The Demi-Fiend can walk away at any time and Lucifer would not stop him.
@@crimsonsnow7228 You fell for Lucifers trap. Didnt you think it a massive "coincidence" that despite offering you freedom, then end result is you just doing what Lucifer wanted? Being the general of HIS army, fighting HIS war, against HIS enemy? Face it, the moment he FORCEFULLY dropped that bug in your eye you became just another cog in his machine. Lucifers little death game is just a smaller, and as the sequels show, more impotent version of YHWVs: have a bunch of idiots Duke it out while you sit in the back and wait. If the winner doesnt do what you want, pretend it's okay and try again later.
The freedom ending by contrast is the only one where the demi-fiend successfuly makes a choice of his own will. He doesnt piggyback off of anyone else. Its the only one where he actually spits on everyone elses plans and does what HE wants. And it isnt even that bad a deal. Lucifer states he still has his powers, and YWHV is gonna be pissed no matter what going by later games, so nothing changes on that front.
@@ImaTroperin the 3 reason endings you are going off of someone else will. in the true demon ending you are forced in someone side in a war and in the freedom ending you are forced into god,s law. What I am saying is that no matter what ending you get you are a slave to some bodies even if one of them inadvertently but true demon ending is atleast you are stopping a problem on a multiversal scale
@@crimsonsnow7228 thats how he manipulates you, You have a false , sense of freedom but as soon as the games starts he's manipulating you, the way he presents to You in the labyrinth, the woman in black that looks just like Takao, on purpose to persuade you.. he's cunning.
I agree with that the Freedom ending is the best ending but not because of the way you view it. YHVH is not God's counterpart in SMT, instead he is the rogue avatar of God, known here as The Great Will or Axiom. (who is benevolent, also Law endings in general with the exception of SJ are not about losing free will but establishing a utopia but at the cost of a great number of lives but I digress) The Freedom ending according to Kagutsuchi, is the option the Great Will chose before, so its not a act of defiance to God like you claim and considering Hikawa a high ranking member of Lucifer's cult was the one responsible for starting the Conception, its unlikely the Great Will wants any of this in the first place. (heck even the angels do not side with him and they're so confused about who their master is that they can create a artificial YHVH via it in SMT2) As for why Lucifer accepts defeat so easily thats because he is normally a graceful loser, who knows that even if he fails here, he can just go to a alternate world in the Amala Network to get what he wants anyways. So I view it as a more a Neutral Law hybird ending instead of a Chaos or fully Neutral one.
As a religious person, I needed to hear that. I'm starting Nocturne now and I have no idea which ending will leave me feeling like crap. Now I know what to shoot for.
@@micahlindley7515
I can understand that as at a casual glance the SMT franchise can seem very anti-Christian if you don't know the details. Nocturne is quite different to the rest of the main franchise and Chaos themed, so please don't give up on the franchise if you end disliking Nocturne as honestly its not everyone's cup of tea. If you ever get the chance I recommend Devil Survivor Overclocked as while it is a spin off with gameplay similar to Fire Emblem, its a standard SMT plot and the one I think you'll enjoy the most.
You might also want to try the original SMT4, which is a standard SMT mainline game. (stay away from Apocalypse though as while God is outright good in it, it butchers the characterization and nuance of everyone from 4 to try to establish a more generic plot that is unfitting of SMT.
Yeah, I know. I'll just stick to my Persona and Final Fantasy bubble.
On an unrelated note, I ADORE the negotiation mechanic. I rather like the idea of befriending your enemies instead of fighting them. Reminds me of Undertale, except I think Undertale does a far better job with negotiation as it's the main way you fight in the pacifist route.
Actually, I think Atlus should make an SMT game where you can play a pacifist route! That would be so cool! Imagine how the bosses would play!
@@micahlindley7515
Not as unrelated as you think as Toby did take SMT as one his many inspirations, its something I like as well.
That would be wild though I doubt it will ever happen as Law and Chaos can't stand each other.
objectively, you cannot have freedom so long as the christian god lives.
i love how these endings can be interpreted in many different ways
Yhvh isn't in nocturne tho
Can’t watch this yet because... SMT NOCTURNE REMAKE BABY!!!!!!
Damn, didn't think at it like that, yea i agree, tho TDE is cooler, but still, you have a point.
Interesting
3:08 LOVED THAT
XD
yesssiirrr
id love some smt content
I personally always believed that the Freedom Ending was the right one(personal opinion),since it's foolish to leave the fate of the entire human species to one person.Choosing a reason or any other ending just feels extremely selfish.
Freedom just delays it a while
4th snake doing smt videos?
PLS MORE PLS MOOOORE ^_^
An smt video? Nice
Freedom ending was the true ending of vanilla Nocturne (which does not feature Dante from Devil May Cry)
Man this game keeps getting my interest shame that the remaster won't have Dante in it, that was a huge selling point for me
Just got done looking at all the endings and Freedom ending is a simple feel good ending. It's not bad then all the rest but personally, I found the True Demon to be a more exciting overall.
The best ending IMO.
"If you think the True Demon Ending is the best ending then you're a coward and a fraud."
It's true and you should say it.
You know smt 4 apocalypse does confirm the demi fiend and the other smt protagonists lost there battles against god.
Edit:FUCK ME YOU DID KNOW!!!.
It's almost like nocturne wasn't made with law chaos and neutral in mind and the endings don't neatly align with those allignments
Can you elaborate on how shijama could be considered freedom even though you're talking about the freedom ending
Question: Do you prefer Persona or SMT in terms of story?
Well technically Persona is about Morals/humanity , SMT is about Symbolism/divinity so can’t really compare on the same level since they each have their own strengths (Persona = character, SMT = Beliefs etc.)
like makoto yuki up here i still share the same idea but both have a strong relationship with philophy on a fondamental level , they just don't share the same focus , Persona from the word Personae was about yugian(huge sorry if mispelled psychology and the definition of individual in a world where they don't recognise themselfs anymore as such , and SMT is the journey of a human to find meaning rather than evolve from a stale state in a personal level , as such i think i don't make my point clear , feel free to correct me and help me improve that
Studio Weil and bust real no no I get what you mean, btw it’s “Jungian”
Usually SMT. Persona is fun along the way to the end, but doesn't always leave me feeling anything special at the end. There's usually a slow part for me. SMT on the other hand is challenging and gripping from start to finish, and the endings leave me feeling invigorated, vindicated, or anywhere in between.
Persona = Glad [while] I'm doing it.
SMT = Glad I did it all around.
Agreed, Freedom is definitely my favourite ending out of the bunch and it is due to the fact that Demi-fiend made a choice on his own through the free will given to him under God's system and that he wasn't bound by someone else's will.
Y’know one of the main things I always wondered about TDE that nobody seems to entertain.
Y’know the Demi Fiend can still lose right? Just because you broke the conception doesn’t mean you have a chance. You very well may cause another conception anyway. Sure it was an attempt but was it much better than the others? Still, I like the choice for the ending to begin with. Just don’t try and tell me the game is meant to end that way or really any way.
Also extra tidbit. This ending wasn’t in the original release which is hilarious since Atlus is notorious for adding bonus content in rereleases nobody likes. Guess Nocturne was the only one that was pretty good in that regard.
Except demi fiend can make Yhvh literally cry and beg for mercy if he wanted
Well I'll tell you it's meant to end that way and I'll tell you again if you say it's wrong, the game i s meant to end with the True Demon Ending. Two games stated that path as the one he took.
Still took the TDE because It's just canon in my opinion.
It was only added in Maniax so not one of the original options
As glad I am to see someone talking about SMT III even today, I must respectfully disagree on something. I believe the nature of SMT games lies in the possibility of choice, not in humanity´s struggle against destruction. As we have seen with Aleph (ie Hijiri), the protagonists of each SMT game are always meant to make grave decisions, no matter what might come out of such decisions or how they suffer for it. Furthermore, I would list two arguments against seeing the restoration ending as the natural one:
First, by watching the surviving humans and how even the most benign or well meaning of them end up going crazy in their search for power, one would think that rejecting the possibility of personal choice in favor of letting this very same sort of people decide the future is nonsensical. Hell, none of the surviving humans even wished for restoration in the first place. Instead, the moment they got a taste of the chance at creating their envisioned realities (with the sole exception of Takao who could not even imagine her own reason in the first place), all of them jumped at the chance to do so.
And second, consider what the Demi-fiend has to go through to achieve true demon in the first place. He has to systematically reject each reason in question, his own humanity (and by extension the chance to return to being one) and then walk through every layer of hell, which speaks not only of physical might but also of determination of unparalleled level. It is not merely a question of might, but also of conscious choice that theoretically speaking requires the most willpower and consideration involved, given how many steps it involves.
So no, I do not believe that merely restoring the status quo is the optimal or even desirable outcome, not even by SMT standards, as you are only delaying the inevitable. Still, thanks for the video, cheers!
Do a dishonored video pls Either a line through time and or ur wasted plotentiol
but muh pierce tho...
True Demon Ending is for masochistic edgelords
Freedom Ending is for the real bros
IT'S SO BASED TO BE LUCIFER'S FUCCBOY PAWN DUDE, U DONT UNDERSTAND, U FENCESITTING COWARD
~ TDE loser
hey don't shame masochism like, sometimes thing just get a little too boring
I disagree the True Demon Ending is any less valid. It’s a rejection of letting Kagutsuchi keep doing the repetitive cycle of rebirth over and over. Since ultimately regardless of what ending is picked the Conception will just keep occurring.
But does that make the ideology less permanent?
If Shijima gets picked, what reason or cause could there be for something other than it to get picked in the next world?
@@2tehnik Someone who grows bored of Shijima clearly, individualism will inevitably try to rise up again even within a world where everything starts off as a collective. Since inevitably things will fall apart and change, otherwise we'd have Megaten games that are based around things such as the world of Shijima and other Reasons if the vortex world was truly an everlasting constant phenomenon. It's obvious that the new worlds created are founded upon vague human desires, which leads the new worlds to become based upon these vague concepts and the new worlds fall apart into normalcy again.
For instance, we know Hikawa WANTS a world of stillness, that is connected to god. However the idea of it is so vague and seemingly impossible by normal means that we can't really find a way to see how it'd really work without major leaps in logic that defy the normalcy of everyday life eluded to other Megaten games before the crazy adventure sets in and such.
@@ils4844 That misses the point of Shijima though, or at most is to say that Reason worlds can't function/achieve their goals "just cause." I mean, if Shijima is to consist of epic buddhist wo/mans, why would they get bored the same way, for example, a child gets bored of a game?
> Since inevitably things will fall apart and change, otherwise we'd have Megaten games that are based around things such as the world of Shijima and other Reasons if the vortex world was truly an everlasting constant phenomenon.
I'd argue the exact opposite, the reason why megaten games always center around or start from neutral worlds is because they're the only ones that provide any conflict for a story.
If you looked at a world of law like Shijima, that'd be all you'd get. You simply wouldn't have a megaten game.
Even smt IV and II present societies that are law dominated, but haven't actually reached the pinnacle/ideal their alignment intends. Like, could you have smt IV in a universe where the archangels didn't let Akira in? I don't think so (not any that starts in Mikado and has it be a relevant force for most of the game anyway).
> However the idea of it is so vague and seemingly impossible by normal means that we can't really find a way to see how it'd really work without major leaps in logic that defy the normalcy of everyday life
Why would it have to change normally? We're talking about a game series where supernatural agents are used/help in achieving ideological ends all the time. There's nothing strange in there not being "normal people" in Shijima anymore because that's the whole point!
@@2tehnik Well, it was just an idea. Anyways looking closer into the idea of Shijima on paper I can see some of that vagueness of it I was talking about earlier though. Since it lacks any kind of form of self or passion or destruction/conflict, it looks like it aims to almost make humanity "less than human" if that makes any sense.
Everyone is "equal to god" somehow, however nobody is an individual. Therefore it seemingly removes one of the biggest components that makes someone human just for the sake of making everyone safe and "equal" to god. Which sounds pretty lousy and boring if you ask me.
And if you're scoring out one of the biggest parts that make someone human just to save everyone from pain and suffering, are you really saving humanity anymore? I wouldn't think so but I guess that begs the question of "How much can you remove from a person until they stop being human," can you remove the body or soul and still be human? Do you need one or the other or do you need the full package to consider being one?
I'd at least consider the self/individualistic personality a rather important part of being human, so therefore I guess I'd assume that's what's needed to be one.
As for bringing up the idea of no destruction earlier I sorta just find myself interested in how far the idea of "no destruction" goes. Like, can I only not destroy in the sense of harming other people mentally or physically? Does this apply to physical objects such as a chair or streetlight?
If I take the object apart with tools or in an orderly fashion is it still considered "destruction?" Can a society of individual-less people even be capable of destruction? Or hell even creation? Is it impossible for a Vortex World to be created under a world of Shijima since destruction isn't allowed, even if it is in the name of a new creation?
Since everyone is "equal" to god does that mean they are bound to the same rules as he is or are they not? Meaning it wouldn't be a truly equal scenario? Since god has destroyed and created before after all.
And if everyone is some kind of "cog" metaphorically in some kind of "machine" that is the universe does that mean everyone has an individual task? Could a passionless society even be able to carry out their tasks, without the passion to come up with the motivation to work? Or since passion is not allowed and one's work usually can possibly lead to finding a passion. Is one's work meant to be a hell job of maintaining the flow of the "Universe" in Shijima?
What is it meant by "Universe?" is humanity still on earth or have they spread out throughout the physical universe? Are they not even "in" the universe of the world anymore? And are instead in heaven due to being "equal to god" or some kind of Garden of Eden equivalent? Or even someplace else entirely?
With being equal to god it seems like it stifles out the last possible motivation anyone could've had in the world of Shijima. Who cares if the main intent was to be with god or under god within this world when you're already somehow equal to him?
The vagueness of the reason doesn't sit well with me (Although you can say that for pretty much all of them), and if anything the most "good" that could come out of it is a safe space under god that leads to nothing but a dead end for humanity.
Nothing really happens and since there's no individualism, I'd argue the world's so called "inner peace" is just empty husks of "people" droning on endless tasks forever, until they keel over. If death even is a possibility for one "equal to god."
Although I haven't played Nocturne at all yet so I might just be speaking out of my ass here, I'll be playing it soon though hopefully. So by then I'll be able to review these statements and ideas of at some point in hindsight. Well uh, anyways excuse my ramblings with way too many questions over answers I guess.
In my opinion, the True Demon and Freedom are the 2 best endings in the game depending on my mood with the Demon ending being the "Worst" ending in the game.
(The Demon Ending is a good ending if you think about it from a thematic viewpoint. You decided not to choose when you absolutely needed to so now the world will stagnate and die with you in it alone)
Edit: I initially made this comment within the 1st minute
If the True Demon ending wasn't basically objectively better for having amazing bosses, Dante, an entire giant dungeon, and the extra challenging final boss, the freedom ending would be heavily preferred
When you take the True Demon ending out of the way, you essentially have three alignment endings, a neutral good in freedom where you bully god into restoring the world, and a neutral bad in demon, where the world is left to slowly decay ruled by demons due to not having the willpower. I was actually just thinking about how freedom was the best ending, and was googling it to rewatch when this video got suggested.
personally have to disagree with this one.
In the current law of the universe that the player lives in god/YHVH is the one to decide the way humans live putting humans in a constant cycle of destruction and creation when they're given too much freedom. the only way you can end that cycle is by killing off the concept of creation and taking a stand against the cycle. This comes at the cost of everything you know and love from your world yes, but this actually represents nocturne's themes perfectly.
through out the game we're asked:
how much we're willing to sacrifice in order to carry out what we believe is right?
what is the price that comes with you staying true to those ideals and how far are you willing to go with them?
All of the players friends are shown to give up parts of themselves in pursuit of their reasons but the most prominent is the Demi-Fiend himself.
Through out the game you acquire new demonic powers to aid you in combat, recruit and infuse new demons to fight alongside you as you gain more and more of these powers and rise to the rank of demons. as you do so you're slowly letting go of your humanity in order to gain that power. Only by fully embracing that demonic side you're able to gain enough power to fight for what you believe in. In the case of the true demon ending you have to go as far as ending your own universe in order to prove that we don't need someone to tell us how to live our lives and that we should be able to forge our own path. The freedom ending while a good ending only gives temporary freedom for humanity as we wait for another conception. it isn't until we can at least fight and kick gods ass and maybe make our own universe can the cycle of creation and destruction of your universe end.
At the end of the day tho it's up to interpretation just thought i would share my opinion on the matter :)
Why they got to make god an asshole in this game kind of annoys me lol
I used to think like this but there's a reason I changed my mind and went true demon a reason i dont want to wast 5 hours writeing here
Then why tease us with it?
We've got time; tell us your Reason.
granted you take this ending being well aware that the conception will probably happen again, because someone else will be unsatisfied with how things are and demand change, and it's more than likely you won't be alive to intervene and restore the status quo again..
Exactly the point. By doing the demon or true demon you end that cycle. On your path to kill god
You might not be able to, but who is to say somebody else won't pick up the torch where you left off?
The power of humanity has always been our ability to improve and learn with every generation. If somebody does trigger the Conception again, who is to say that Lucifer or the Axiom's newly chosen champion won't be there to defy it again? Humanity has been passing down its legacy for millenia. If the Conception was stopped once, it can be stopped again.
Oh sorry, when you said that Demi-Fiend lost to Lucifer as implied in the Messiah DLC that's actually incorrect, at the end everyone goes through a portal to face off against their main baddies or at a diffrent time in their story, Demi-Fiend is before the "Showdown with Lucifer" as he puts it.
hey why are you complaining about the Canon ending
Don't care about the video. Bet that it is great, but *ONE MORE GOD REJECTED*
Okay
While I save up for Switch Nocturne, let’s rewatch Sugar Punch trying to remember the plot of this game!
XD
ruclips.net/video/qLT5YdBgsd0/видео.html
The freedom ending is basically a waste.
You could either choose to recrate the world through a reason free from YHVHs shit or you could just end up going against YHVH or The Great will entirely and later recreate the world to your liking like in the Apocalypse ending.
If you choose the freedom ending you have to live in a constant fear of getting hunt out by YHVH or The Great will and eventually experience the same punishment as Aleph or Hijiri
If you choose the Normal Demon ending, you have fucked up entirely.
The TDE ending is technically the best anyway, since after you beat up YHVH or The Great will, you could choose to recreate the world anyway you want, you could inhabit the throne of creation by yourself and create a completely new path/reason, which you could free the world from demons entirely or even go to a position higher than even YHVH like Matter Lucifer, you would literally have endless possibilities. There would also be the possibility to create a world with one of the 3 reasons as a baseline and do your own variation out of it.
The reason endings are also good, since the world isn't created by YHVH which means that he doesn't have (full) control over it, which makes him harder to control the world. Especially in the Masubi ending were everyone has his own world, he can choose to create the way he wants.
not actively going against god for no reason instantly makes it a law ending? and going against what god wants for reasons completely unrelated to god makes it a chaos ending? even if an ending is going against god, that doesnt make it chaos. chaos has nothing to do with god or lucifer, its just that lucifer generally supports it. same thing with law. also, by your logic, every reason ending is the same as tde because you are just following the will of the reason holder
This, removing the influence of Gods and demons from the world is always optimal for humanity, because at least then we can decide our own fates.
Neutral as an alignment has a very strong "Get off my lawn!" feel to it, and I appreciate that.
I don't like TDE and feel it's overhyped anyway, and I general play Neutral on most SMT runs anyway.
Freedom is my favorite anyway cuz it feels like the ultimate 'fuck you' to everyone.
the neutral gang :D
@@neit_spade8090
Yup yup!
I still prefer True Demon Ending because of his appearance in...Digital Devil Saga :)
Demi fiend doesn't appear on dds. That's a fake demi fiend
Yeah no this same idea didn't work for the protagonist of smt2. He is now cursed to be reborn whenever the world is gonna ended the cycle is to be determined. But he can never change it's outcome and he will be sacrificed for someone else's goal. I get what you are trying to say for the freedom ending but it's not even "good" ending for the characters. Lucifer even tells you to try and keep your power(something that is taken away) if you choose this ending, because God now sees you as a target and will not you be. Not too mention the True Demon Ending is the only ending where you actually find out all the plans and roles everyone and everything plays, as well as the fact that so long as the world is stuck in this cycle it will continue to happen. Siding with Lucifer while yes being evil also does erase the world and shows that perhaps if humanity keeps being pushed they may turn away from YHVH/Kagatsuchi completely.
My only problem with the Freedom Ending is that YHVH will likely just come back later for another round as he tends to do. It's not solving the problem, it's putting it off till later, hoping that maybe you and others can be prepared when it comes and giving people a second chance, which is great but the True Demon ending feels like a more definite "We'll prepare to fix this soon" sort of deal.
Yhvh gets f*cked. He's not a threat to the demi fiend at all
Yeah but as another comment said
Every time yhvh shows up to recreate the world, axiom will choose another messiah. The messiah can beat yhvhs ass again and again and again
Until somehow, all of humanity potentially ascends to stephen level and can take on the great will itself
I love the TDE because I can 1. Punch god in the face, and 2. To me, it's the most re alistic thing I would do in such a situation. Everyone on earth dies, my "friends" are ready to fold me for their reasons, and I can't even make my own reason because I'm half demon. All of that coupled with how chill Lucifer and co. were made me WANT to side with them. They GAVE me the freedom I wanted; I never had to get all the candelabrum, nor did I have to complete the kalpa. I chose to do so of my own free will. That's why I love the TDE. The Freedom ending is my second favorite ending. It's the equivalent of the Demi-fiend holding a middle finger to Kagutsuchi and co. and enjoying his own life. Even Lucifer commends him for the choice.
Not gonna lie, there's a ton of really bad takes here:
First off, the whole video's going off an assumption that the demi-fiend can't genuinely ally with any other path. But this is completely stupid. He's a blank slate for us, the ideological answers he gives to the reason questions are based on what he, through us thinks.
Hell, the reason endings are specifically about demi-fiend getting back his humanity by choosing to create a world; demi-fiend has a demonic body but can (and in those endings, does) retain a human heart.
Saying that he's just following Lucifer's will can go for any chaos ending. You're simply not taking into account that the end hasn't been achieved yet, just how it isn't in a chaos route like smt II's until you beat YHVH.
And what makes freedom special in this regard? It still has a representative in the form of Yuko. So what prevents us from saying that you're just doing Yuko's will there?
Secondly, how is freedom a bigger act of rebellion than the TDE? The world still functions within a certain level of order (in a cosmic and social sense) that you retain. Hell, it's implied to be the "default setting" for worlds in this universe (Kagutsuchi wanting reasons is something new to the current vortex world in-game). So it's not maximally rebellious in the way TDE is. Not to mention that if (presumably) the multiverse post-beating the Great Will is just nothing (in the sense that it's literally about destroying everything that exists), then it really is maximally rebellious since you're going against even that basic level of order and denial of restriction.
This is also to say that Freedom is clearly the neutral analogue in Nocturne and not a chaos one.
Additionally, if demi-fiend has to pick the world in a way where he can't let himself "be commanded," doesn't that exactly restrict him to one option (freedom)? In which case his choice is hardly a free one.
Lastly, are you seriously going to make an inference like "demi-fiend retains his powers" from a vague line like "Until that day, stay strong." The line could just mean that he stays mentally strong until he has to face the Great Will's representatives. There's simply nothing strongly suggesting he has the same power he had as a demon (if anything, the opposite makes more sense since he's in a human body now).
Also, Shijima is the only good ending in Nocturne, Musubi could be fine but others just suck.
Yuko herself talks about how the last world sucked, and just choose to opt for something like it in the end because "Shijima bad."
Based.
Lame that this ending It's not canon, I would had said no to lucifer before even thinking about it, because the original intent was to fix it back, being honest
all endings are all more or less bad endings. but TDE is the best ending, not because im coward and a fraud, its because theres more content ...and i wanna stick it DA MAN ...in the sky.
I thought the TDE ending was considered the worst because the Demi-Fiend loses his battle against god and is presumed dead.
"sighs"
*D E M I F I E N D D O E S N O T L O S E*
That's just a lame a$$theory
@@jackour8167 wow dude, you wrote that in all caps, that means its true!
@@Bloodyshinta1 it's true. That was nothing more than a lame a$$ theory that makes absolutely no sense.
@@jackour8167 well im glad you cleared this up by providing evidence and addressing the reason for the theory to debunk it, wouldn't want you to be talking right out of your ass or anything.
@@Bloodyshinta1 *sighs*
There are multiple theories that suggest demi fiend's failure, however they're easily debunked
1. The one from dds. The dying massage. Dds 1 one takes place in a digital world. Literally a fake world. Everything there is fake. And so is the demi fiend that appeared there.
2. The SJ theory which suggests that demi fiend damaged Yhvh enough only for the Goddess to seal him away and shatter him. However, there is no proof of that. Infact there is no proof sj takes place in the noucturn cosmos.
Another thing that debunks it. Is the f*cking power scaling. Demi fiend fought on par with raidou who's superior to Mido who's on par with Stephen who's infinitely above Yhvh. There is no way he could lose.
Bottom line is, all those theories are lame and all they give utter nonsense.
If there is any other theory that makes absolutely no sense. Please submit it. I'll search and gladly debunk the sh*t.
You missed the part where you accomplish literally nothing and the Universal Will is not coming to beat your ass. Yes, the Reasons are supposed to be dangerous ideologies but the game is saying having no ideology at all is also bad. It's a mirror of Demon where instead of directionless destruction, you're following a weak coward for personal reasons.
I always saw the Freedom ending as the “Twitter ending”. I think it’s embodiment of slacktivism. The ability to pursue this ending comes from a character with no ideas or convictions and is generally pretty incompetent and gets punished severely for it. Changing things back to the way they were always seemed like an easy out. It wants things “to be better”, as vague and halfhearted as that is, but avoids having to both make a tough decision and putting in the work to actually make something happen.
I guess making an enemy out of the universe is a pretty raw deal, but we weren’t aware that would happen until everything was said and done. A detail in the fine print you didn’t see that bit you in the ass after your happy ending. The world is just as flawed as it was before the Conception but you now have the added baggage of having to constantly fear for your life for little reason beyond hoping the state of the world and humanity fixes itself.
It’s basically the McDonalds of SMT endings. It tastes good on a surface level, we get it because we’re familiar with it, are too lazy to make something ourselves, and are too scared, picky, and close minded to order something different and unfamiliar.
Even with how overwhelmingly popular Freedom is (likely due to how easy a choice it is), I always saw it, and most neutral-esque endings, to be the ultimate “do-nothing” routes.
But hey the beauty of SMT is how we get to discuss our different perspectives
Its why I was surprised Ishida, when directing the 3DS version of Strange Journey, decided to flip the table of the original games endings of his personal pet project. As the world teeters closer to the brink than it did in 2009, the New endings end up reflecting this change by showing how blind hope is on Neutral and making New Neutral cynical, in contrast to Mew Law/Chaos being more optimistic and realizing the old Law and Chaos factions lead by Cynical masters were little better than the humans they condemned.
Dont see how how freedom is the twitter ending. If anything it's the "anti-twitter" ending. Twitter is filled with people all calling for some revolution or destruction of some system to impose their own idea of what's right. Meanwhile the freedom ending has the demi-fiend do something very, very, very few people have the strength of character to do: admit the current course of action is wrong and turn back.
Nocturne is based on Nietzche's ubermensch theory, where a new morality is created based on the will of the ubermensch, who can do this by virtue of his power over the sheep. But in every other ending the demi-fiend doesnt follow his own morality, he is prescribed one by someone else. Only in the freedom ending does he show enough personality to have the strength of character to create the world he wants.
In this way the freedom ending becomes th "George Washington" ending. Only by throwing away the immense power given to him does he rise above the system and create a better world. Doesnt mean the future will be perfect, but pretending that hoarding power will make it perfect is the height of hubris. Heck, Lucifer's been killing god since SMT 2 and fat lot of good it's done anyone.
Ishmael I call it the Twitter ending because it wants change and revolution or whatever, as you said, but doesn’t actually do anything remotely substantial to achieve it beyond “This sucks and needs to change. The end”. It’s weak and doesn’t accomplish anything. I’d say it takes a lot more strength and courage to be able take the plunge and strive for something new, whether or not it’s for the better which nobody would reasonably know without trying it first, than to chicken out of making a tough decision because “it’s wrong” according to some arbitrary, made up standards and fall back to something familiar and comfortable with zero plan of action beyond that. “Having hope” isn’t a plan, it’s a lazy gamble heavily skewed against you.
To bounce off the George Washington analogy you used earlier, Washington abandoned the old world to help create something which he perceived as better which is a lot closer to a Reason than Freedom. If Washington were the type of guy to go Freedom, he’d leave Great Britain, fuck about the New World for a bit, then go back to live in Britain and just sits around hoping it stops being tyrannical. He had a chance for change but ultimately does nothing.
I think TDE sucks for similar reasons. There’s nothing to be gained in it, but I don’t wanna get into that. Also Lucifer’s been fucking with god since MT2 (yes it’s different and older than SMT2) but whatever, semantics..
@@qumxlinger1081 MT2 it was the other way around. God was fucking with Lucifer out of jealously. Satan was even Lucifers minion God brought to his side.
They also retcon'd the events of the first one as being Lucifers attempts to stop Megami Tensei II in Kyuyakyu.
Yes, you get it.
While I see your point, counter argument.
The real moral of nocturne is the importance of nuance in life. Over the story you’re presented five reasons. The three main ones, the anarchy reason of the unqualified manikin, and the incomplete reason from your teacher. And all of them are inherently flawed, most even rooted in fallacy if not just outright poorly planned. The problem with all of these is that they’re all extremes. Extreme social Darwinism, extreme collectivism, extreme isolationism, extreme anarchy, extremely lofty goals with no obvious route to see them out.
While the freedom ending seems like the most nuanced option you have, it’s truly one of the least. You abandon and change and growth and instead bring the world back to its self-destructive path that it was already on, a slow death at its own hands in its future. And in the short term, this is fine, but all you’re doing is delaying the inevitable. The world will die. And a new world will need to be born. And when that happens, all you did was waste everyone’s time.
Of course the demon (not true demon) ending is even worse. Deciding to leave the world in its incomplete state, no path, no reason, just darkness and desolation inhabited purely by demons, that’s obviously the worst outcome. You’ve basically chosen to be a king without a kingdom.
The true demon ending, however. In that ending, you acknowledge that all your options are flawed. That all of them are bad. But you also acknowledge the real problem. Not the state of the world, but the system that set all this in motion. Allowing the world to die and taking a position alongside Lucifer in the war against Yhvh is the only way any real change is going to happen, being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice just to bring nuance into being, even if it’s not for your own version of the world’s sake. I believe that Nocturne’s message is this. That the system is broken and it needs to be fixed, even if it’s costly to do so.
I understand your take, but I feel like everyone who talks about TDE forgets something. What is going to happen AFTER the battle with the Great Will? It's not like all of humanity's problems were because of him. And I don't think Lucifer and his demons would be any better than us honestly.
True. You got some brains
Also demi fiend would tear apart YHVH. And this time unlike aleph he'll probably notice that the universal will is what created and will probably destroy it too
@@jackour8167
Well Demi-fiend must’ve failed lol. It took a 15 year old and his little buddies to kill god.
@@sonicsucks2961 he wouldn't. Stop it already. Demi fiend would destroy Yhvh easily