I think when Icky accuses you of projecting, she is saying that you are mapping your experience of being autogynephilic onto other trans women. However, I don't think you are projecting because I think you came to your conclusions about most MTFs being AGP from reading things published by Blanchard, Lawrence, and me. If your beliefs came from reading books and studies, it's not projection, it's just having knowledge. I think you spoke particularly clearly and fluently in this video and therefore it's a good video, but I don't think your argument refuted the accusation of projection like it would have if your argument against projection was instead "it's not projection based on my own experience, it's knowledge from scientific writings".
Icky did not take Ray's arguments seriously and even vilified him to a certain extent. She did this because the theories he talks about have anti trans implications. Some of them imply that transitioning is just a fetish. Even though they are based on research and studies, she and the majority of trans people will dismiss them immediately because they call into question what they consider their basic rights as trans people. No gay person would ever listen to any argument that even slightly implies that homesexuality is untrue or unreal(even if it is based on studies and theories), this is because it infringes on their rights as a people and their identity. It is a very natural emotional and human reaction. Furthermore, this type of immediate dismisal of any anti trans arguments is good for the advancement of trans rights. Both the gay rights and women's suffrage movements vilified and dismised the arguments of the people who critizized the movements. This led to both movements succeding with greater ease. This is what the trans community is also trying to do by "canceling" anyone who even slightly questions their rights(no matter how well researched their arguments are), this causes some acually reasonable theories like some Ray talks about to fall on deaf ears. However imo, it is for the greater good of trans people and (again, this sentence is very much my subjective opinion) humanity.
"....and me." -Enuff said. Posie Parker didn't put up with your narcisstic BS and neither should transwomen or those who use gender medicine. That's quite a coalition.
@@shaurya5866 she didnt take the arguments seriously because theyre ridiculous pseudo scientific nonsense that couldve come straight out of mouth some freud fanboy on 4chan
It’s so crazy how these people will cry “no kink shaming”, yet they shame autogynephilia, and they’re so ashamed of their own kink that they can’t even acknowledge that it’s real! They have to reframe it as something they perceive as innocent in order to try to accept it. They aren’t fooling anyone.
I'll be honest. My girst time I put on a skirt like item was at 5 years old. I did not get aroused, and I did not see myself as a girl. No fantasy, no shame. But I did know I liked it. Then my mom found me. "Oh your father has to see this". She then led me through to the kitchen and as ee entered " oh look at what we have here, a little fruit loop", what proceeded was me being subjected to what turned out to be homophobic slurs, and trans phobic slurs, and told I was bad. All I did was put on an effing slip. All this did was have me learn to run under the radar, but also have shame in something I found pleasant. I think this sort of thing is what leads to AGP, as well as fetish. It is the stigmatizing of crossing arbitrary gender lines that feeds these issues.
@@someonesomeone25 It was parenting of the time. They THOUGHT they were doing me good. I also KNOW I am not alone in this experience. This in 1977, and anti-gay stuff was big time. "Gay Bashing" was a thing as well. My parents did this to sway me away from being gay...funny thing being I have never been attracted to men. I just liked nice clothes. :P
@@BillPhlorgian I definitely think the whole Non Binary thing is rooted in this sort of thing for sure. I didn't post this though to get sympathy, I posted it to get it out this sort of crap happened, and it is NOT always Porn related, nor is it about wanting to be another sex.
(1) Some of us trans people are Atheist (2) Some of us trans people believe that the body is just a shell (3) Some of us trans people understand you can morph the human body with synthetic hormones (4) Transhumanism does not start off with porn... (5) Transhumanism starts off with saying... Which shell do I like best. (6) The vast majority of human are sexual (7) However progressively as males age their sex drive goes down Ray. (8) If transgender behaviour was predominantly sex drive based you would see it go down significantly as humans age. (9) Cite your references and show us your charts.
Se xual orientation based, not se x drive based. Alan Turing didn’t stop being ga y after the British government chemically cast rated him. AGPs also don’t stop being AGP after being chemically cast rated or because they age.
@@StormBringer5 (1) Type in the word autogynephilia into Google (2) What is the first thing that you see? (3) A reference to being (S) arroused (4) Seems to be a word deliberately designed to disrespect people (5) Playing upon the prudish nature of people from the mainstream (6) Otherwise it would just be referred to as cross dressing... (7) I was suggesting that there is more than on reason why people have an alternative identification (8) Autogynephilia is a word use to vilify trans. (9) Disingenuous of Ray to use such a word (10) He is self projecting... (11) It's not (S) orientation...For alot of people (12) Ray need to prove his numbers
AGP may be used to vilify some trans people but that was not Blanchard’s intention. His intention was uncover the clear differences in etiology between homose xual and heterose xual males. AGP exists to describe a causal factor that leads to gender dysphoria in many males. Males often use the word “prudish” when describing their se xuality in relation to others, specifically females. They seem to forget this is just evolutionary biology. Because females waste more time and resources on raising offspring, they are on average are more mate selective, have lower se x drives, and focus more on quality mate selection than the act of se x itself. This is evolutionary safeguarding, it’s not “prudish” (again, these are averages). It is not described as cross dressing because AGP encompasses a variety of behaviors not limited to clothing. The 5 types are transve stic, behavioral, anatomical, interpersonal, and physiologic. You can have all are only one, but transve stic does seem to be the most common.
Ray, I think the kernel of truth in the projection claim is that you are speculating about F1nn and Icky's sexuality in essentially the same way you are accusing Icky of doing to F1nn. You have an identity label, AGP, that you are seeing people and how they behave through. You notice the pattern and are applying it to people you think match. This is similar to the problem faced by gender nonconforming people now being told that "they might be trans", by well meaning friends. [This is what I think happened with Icky towards F1nn. But I'm only capable of speculation here because I don't have access to Icky's thoughts] Projection does not imply rejection of the trait being projected. For example: newly diagnosed Autistic people have a tendency to see evidence of the condition everywhere. Developing a new identity changes what you ignore and what you find salient. I really appreciate the content you are putting out. As a genderfluid AGP I think its our responsibility to not subject people to the same speculations that made our own identity confusion worst.
I totally agree The issue comes in when you assign the label to them unbidden. Neutrally presenting AGP, AutoHet, or AGAMP, might be a better strategy. Since people often avoid psychiatric diagnosis to avoid label stigma. They clearly haven't read or looked into the sexology literature on the topic. The thing that pushed me toward this diagnosis was familiarizing myself with the topic and the abundance of correlated traits that I could identify in my development. I think if I was told by someone that I was AGP prior to personally researching the topic, especially with the trans-party discipline around the subject, I'd probably reject it out of hand too. How do you think you would have felt 4 or 5 years ago being told that by someone you didn't know?
@@RayAlexWilliamsMaybe if the theory was watertight, uncontroversial, and backed by international expert consensus, it would make more sense to act with such confidence. But Blanchardianism isn't exactly evolutio or gravity..
Sadly, psychology data like the clinical case histories that Blanchard used to develop the theory are notorious for how noisy they are. There are clear reasons for this. If you have a progressive condition, its likely you won't check all the boxes if you are tested early. Strong correlations with Autism further complicate these studies because of Autism's highly variable expression. [Asexuals and hyper-sexuals in the same category] This is a general limitation of Clinical Case study data and not Sexology research specifically. Id say that the 2-type typology is massively preferable to the folk-theory of transgenderism being pushed around today. At the same time, we need to be cognizant of how porous the boundaries of the categories are.
It's equivalent to going around telling bisexual people that they're confused, not really same sex attracted. A bisexual women in a lesbian women's space gets this kind of push-back every now and again (e.g. 'goldstar' lesbians vs bisexual women). Ray even used this term in one of his other videos. It's presumptive, offensive and discriminatory to think you can tell somebody else what their sexuality is, I don't see why that shouldn't also apply to gender.
I genuinely couldn't give a crap what fetishes people do/don't have, in their private life. I'd rather NOT know, tbh... But the key part of that is "IN THEIR PRIVATE LIFE"... Whether they want to label it "a fetish", or "my super-duper special (but entirely evidence-free) identity", or "my religious belief", or whatever else, doesn't matter; WHEN YOU DEMAND FOR US TO AFFIRM IT, with special, opposite-sex grammar rules just for you, with special privileges to invade opposite-sex spaces, off-limits to ALL OTHER members of your own sex, YOU have chosen to put this "fetish/religious belief/whatever the hell it is" on the table for public scrutiny... Responding to that scritiny, by saying "Nuh-UH!! You're just projecting YOUR OWN fetish!!" just comes off as childish and desperate, when directed at someone who ISN'T DEMANDING SPECIAL TREATMENT/PRIVELEGES... ... coz its the entire reason any of this stuff is an issue, is those special privileges (so-called "trans rights"... But how is it a "right", when NOBODY ELSE gets to invade opposite-sex spaces, and NOBODY ELSE gets to control the language of others. Those are "special privileges", not "rights") Nobody cares what thoughts you have inside your head... People DO care, when you demand special priveleges, and prioritize yourself above the rights of everyone else...
No one is demanding you to give them special treament by using pronouns, it is a request. If you do not comply with the request, some trans people may not want to interact with u, that is the only consequence you face. The right for trans people to use different bathrooms is not something you can decide on, it is something that society as a whole must deciede and create laws on. No matter the outcome, you just have to deal with it. I don't think it's unfair in any way, they are a community of people who is arguing for the rights they believe they should have, nothing wrong with that. If the majority of people share your view they will not recieve those rights, if they don't then they will. Currently, the majority disagrees with you.
I would agree that trans people do take an extra step in introducing to a concept as “gender” which affects you and society. However, what is wrong with that? Through public discourse and a democratic process, we agreed to provide “rights” to trans folk. Please remember, that despite your anger and your hatred of people demanding things, we are discussing people who have a mental condition of dysphoria related to being the wrong sex or sex role in society, and despite what many authors like Ray think, the science is *not* decided on anything yet. Perhaps you should engage in respectful polite debate for the various concerns you have, and additionally, perhaps you should have compassion for an experience you are not familiar with, and come at it with inquisitiveness and curiosity, if you wish to learn something. Trans rights are protections against hateful groups who literally seek to even physically hurt others. And as said, being trans indeed *requires* a new theory of gender, that has so far won major public discourse in some areas. And I personally believe the new theory of gender, although not totally scientifically valid, is one very small step in a new, better direction.
I believe you are a master teacher and this is your calling. What a beautiful thing to take the shame out of something. When I feel shame especially deep shame it doesn't bring good things out of me. It will make a liar out of me. I find it so hard to face. How are we supposed to figure something out if shame is stopping us from seeing it. Plus it's still there buried inside us and that is a horrible thing. If your attackers really don't believe this is them that's cool but if they don't why don't they just let it go. If they really believe this doesn't apply to them why do they feel the need to defend themselves against it.
To purport he is a “master” teacher is quite an ego-stroke, and that would make me doubt the validity of a a supposed "non-emotionally-fuelled, purely scientific claim", based on these kind of follower responses. It's suggestive this theory if forming more of an oppressive (or internally repressive) cult.
No, he’s just kind of a judgmental dick about it. There are many self declared AGPs that are very pleasant becuz they don’t tell other trans people how to live their lives 🤷🏼♀️
@@bulldogklaus47 I don't know ow anyone who argues they have no connection. But I don't think they're the same thing, obviously. A lot is going to depend upon exactly what is meant by terms like 'orientation' and 'connected'. So I'm.not sure what cause exists as you've defined it.
i would like to see a one on one umpired live stream debate of say ray vs icky on the subject of agp ..but somehow i doubt icky would be that foolish to agree to such an event going by the strengths of her arguments to date. However it's high time agp is fully aired on the mainstream media to get everyone thinking about this elephant in the room.. too many agp's have been confused about their own condition and have made poor life choices as a result of that.
I'm glad you mentioned that there is analogous behavior in females. I wondered about that after looking at some reddits for trans men and seeing two distinct types; females who would have been butch lesbians had they not transitioned, and another type that looked much different and seemed very focused on being handsome and sexy. The ones in this second group seemed to be crushing on themselves, and I was struck by how girly they seemed when complimenting each other on their hotness.
@@5-Volt I thought of him, given his appearance,, feminine affect and attraction to men. But to hear him tell it, he's genuinely dysphoric and I have no reason to think he's lying.
@@5-Volt I thought about him, given his appearance, affect and attraction to men. But to hear him tell it, he is classically dysphoric and I have no reason to question that.
Phil Illy has some interviews with AAPs. One AAP he interviewed suggested they’re more likely to fly under the radar because male se xuality is just more intense and consuming. By contrast, it makes female paraphilias just seem non-paraphilic.
@@StormBringer5 Some people in the field don't seem to know about them. I'm pretty sure Debra Soh, in The End of Gender, wrote that there is no female analog of autogynephilia. They're not too under the radar in my very trans-supportive city. They show up on gay hook-up apps and at the bathhouse. The T seems to make them very guy-like in their approach.
I am in total agreement with you. 76 y.o. male. Married 40 years. 2 adult children. Why can't this be acceptable? It is SO much more common than people realize.
Great job ray. I could see the insane obsessive comment spamming by some people that really just proved your point. I like your explanations of the psychology and providing a balanced non TERF take on this topic.
Young women, in general take ALOT of pictures of themselves. Males might do so as well, were it not for the shaming and accusation of narcissism that get bandied about. But also and again, women's fashion is more expressive, more varied, more artistic, than male style overall. I have far more images of my "feminine" androgynous, gender non conforming styles than I do of my "masculine" styles cause honestly, you see one jeans and t shirt style, or one three piece suit style, you've seen them all. Again, I don't think that explosion of selfies in trans or agp folk has anything to do with those things, and just more to do with the vast differences available in "feminine" fashion.
I think we need to establish what the standard for "debunking" a hypothesis would be. Because the people saying autogynephilia has been "debunked" don't seem to understand. I think a great example is the autism causes vaccines claim. It was debunked when there were large scale, well made studies done showing there was no correlation between vaccines and autism. You would need to do the same to prove autogynephilia is not a precursor to some trans women's pathway to trans identification. And honestly, with the mountains of anecdotal evidence alone make that seem like an impossibility. We already know there are people such as yourself.
Same with the claim that ROGD has been debunked. ROGD is just the classification of the cohort of people who identify as trans in their teens. You can't debunk it. That cohort exists. And AGP people exist.
*Picture this, Ray:* _You_ on piano, _Aaron_ (🍁) on banjo, _Phil_ doing interpretative dance/gymnastics, in _AUTOSEXVALITY - the Mvsical_ No need to credit me with the idea. Just make it happen.
Wait, it occurs to me the Aaron who's an autosexuality theory enjoyer may not be the banjo-playing Aaron, and they're not both Canadian. My apologies to both Aarons for getting mixed up about that.
@spiralvoid45 I haven't been able to figure out a coherent consensus on definitions and differences even with research. More importantly, I want to know how the person using them is using them, not what someone else.means by those terms.
I can only speak for myself on this topic but I have found your videos and discussions very de stigmatizing. They’ve helped me a lot w my own perceptions. I’m sure it’s difficult for others to adopt a theory that purports to describe them without a pretty solid amount of introspection. Anyways, here to support you!
@spiralvoid45 Aren't autosexuals those who fancy and have sex with their reflection? So, are AGP are those who basically want to have sex with their female clone/twin?
Sexual inversion was the name given to homosexuals when they were pathologized and treated as mentally unwell. The idea was that if your cure somebody's sexual inversion, you could cure their homosexuality. I've never come across the term 'interveted heterosexuality' except here on Ray's channel. Whether it's accepted amongst sexologist or not, the term smacks of the pathologization of transsexual women in the same way that homosexual were once pathologized. It is this king of pathologization that allows people who are ignorant on the topic to say that transsexuals must be mentally unwell. Given that the trans* community has broadly rejected the term, it doesn't seem to really be helping anyone but just feeding into prejudice and hate.
@@FaerieQueenCaelia The term is not "inverted heterosexuality" that's just a way of describing AGP, which like it or not, is a studied phenomenon & plenty of trans women describe feeling.
I appreciate your honesty and commitment to de-stigmatizing sexuality, and braveness to talk about it publicly. I think I was wrong about a few things in my last barrage of comments on your previous video. Except, I still doubt: 1. How useful or safe it would really be if the concept of AGP, instead of gender identity, was mainstream, considering how quick people are to hate 2. How AGP seems to be a bit too much of an un-falsibile, "catch-all", theory 3. Whether you are using this theory as a way to repress your own desires; it seems a bit inhumane in the way you speak (or lack to speak thereof) about your own trans experience. So then I ask you, for public usefulness, do you have any suggestions for someone who is struggling with their strong desires to transition? How have you personally managed to cope after detransitioning? Do you think your desires only lessened to a manageable level, after trying out transition and seeing the reality of it? Remember, psychology is a *social* science. To apply such rigorous logic and facts, as one would do with philosophy or mathematics, doesn’t work here because emotions are quite involved and thus your logic, as you see in many delusions, can be used then, in actuality, illogically, to turn personal emotional beliefs into “truth”. Labels such a “OCD”, “ADHD” exist not to prove existence of some true nature of the mind, but rather to describe a set of symptoms such that it can help people. I’m just not convinced the theory is focused on a compassionate approach, it seems to take a critical approach. That’s not what really what we want to do in psychology regarding dysphoric individuals, I think.
The brain differences in trans-women were only done on hsts who had already been on opposite sex hormones and were all hsts. However, not all non trans gay males display this brain difference and some straight non trans males do.
Not true! Swab did a follow op set of brain autopsies on those that weren't administered cross sexed hormones. He also found the later the transition the less feminized the brain. My experience what I call retirement aged transvestites tend to be very masculine with a very strong male identity like Caitlyn Jenner. They also tend to be the most deviant and fetish motivated.
The brain difference was also congruent in males who were gay or gender-non conforming who did NOT transition. So the need to transition is questionable.
The differences in brain structure between male and female are small and not predictive of anything. Like all quantitative traits, they exist on a bell-curve with a variety of anatomical differnces. Finding one small anatomical difference, on average, between two populations does not allow you to definitively assign one person to a population based on that variable.
Phil Illy actually has a lot of these! Honestly seeing interviews with AGPs and AAPs is very humanizing, I do think it’s great to see these people get more exposure.
Its wrong when you intentionally expose your sexuality publicly and make it a part of your social identity however, even more so in front of children or people that didn't ask for this.
I 100% agree. That's why children should never be at weddings as they are inherently sexualized spaces, and straight couples should never hold hands in public.
Are you then one of those goofballs telling people to keep it in the bedroom, and behind closed doors, even if they are decently attired , and behaving normally? Soooo, do you like the trans issue as it is?
I'll be honest. My girst time I put on a skirt like item was at 5 years old. I did not get aroused, and I did not see myself as a girl. No fantasy, no shame. But I did know I liked it. Then my mom found me. "Oh your father has to see this". She then led me through to the kitchen and as ee entered " oh look at what we have here, a little fruit loop", what proceeded was me being subjected to what turned out to be homophobic slurs, and trans phobic slurs, and told I was bad. All I did was put on an effing slip. All this did was have me learn to run under the radar, but also have shame in something I found pleasant. I think this sort of thing is what leads to AGP, as well as fetish. It is the stigmatizing of crossing arbitrary gender lines that feeds these issues.
I personally don't see my dysphoria as me having sexual ties. Though regardless of where it came from I do have it and I do struggle with the desire of wanting to be a very feminine girlish women. Don't know why but since I was five years old I've enjoyed wearing girl dresses and the most memorable times I had growing up were when I was younger playing with my older sisters with their old baby dolls. Fun times
I mean the main reason when you boil down to it for a lot of trans women are the facts that a lot of them want to find some level of reasoning as to why they are trans. I know I suffer from this as well, where you want to rationalizes "how you always been trans." I think this line of thought makes trans identify males feel comfortable because then those don't end up denying the decision to go on hormones.
@@someonesomeone25Exactly. Gender non-conformity should be embraced, we shouldn’t be telling people they’re the opposite gender if they engage in gender nonconformity.
Just because your experience is valid and it’s scientifically proven does not mean that trans experience is invalid. Scientific studies contradicts one another all the time especially when it comes to psychological sciences. I think your time would be better spent on being yourself and less critical on others. While I do believe that the messaging and activisism in the trans community can be confusing at times. A blanket dismissal of trans experience and the help people could get will cause more harm than good. There should be better messaging and medical practitioners as well as people seeking help need to be well equipped and educated so they can make better decisions. At the end of the day one’s life is one’s responsibility you need to do what’s right for you at the time. How you use your experience and knowledge to define others people experience is no different than those girls’ behaviour. You’re both trying to validate your experience while projecting it onto others.
@spiralvoid45 that’s a fair comment. I whole heartedly agree with you and that’s what the messaging should be. If I wasn’t clear in my response I did criticise the other trans activists in their messaging as well. They are projecting their experience onto others as well. I also agree that the current discourse does not allow other type of experiences to be validated because for some reason they think it’s threatening their own experience and identity. I believe in the experience of both sides but I don’t believe in validating one’s experience by projecting/ taking down/invalidating others, using science or not. I believe we should all be allowed exists and express who we are without judgment. I’m rather disappointed that a lot of activisms lean too much on identity and us vs them mentality. Thank you for raising a good point. I hope a future where how you may choose to express yourself is not too far away. Either way, live your life. Don’t let anyone tell you how to feel.
Ray I'm not trying to be a dick by saying this but I 1000% think that it does seem like deflective self projecting because you decided to deny yourself the right to transition. And that's why we are all annoyed... It is like sometimes you kiiiinnddaaaa pivot on/lean on saying that people should not transition, or can "deal" with their dysphoria. But the thing is, transitioning helps a lot for most people, so I wonder, is there something you aren't figuring out in yourself? Like, why don't you look more feminine? You can still be very feminine as a guy. Finnster did it for ages before HRT but you're totally getting rid of your feminine aspects. I guess here's the issue - I'll put it this way: The fact that you're able to take off your femininity and feel ok and deny yourself permanent transition, says a lot... It's the difference in you and me, at least, that's for sure. I've tried looking similar to your current style before. Just doesn't work for me, and yesterday one of my friends asked me about if I've ever worn any kinky clothing during sex, and what's funny is lol - Ray?? I actually realized I'd never thought about it, and I sort of reluctantly told her that I'd do it if she wanted, lol, but I said that like, feeling rly odd. I just want to be loved as a woman tbh lol. All of the platonic aspects matter more to me, and I only ever think of being a woman in terms of sexuality in terms of like self-pleasure and me feeling misaligned with my physical parts. I think this is the difference in being trans or not, if I had to guess... lol. Let's be clear I DO think there are A LOT of AGP trans ppl, and if u wanna argue that Finn is an AGP then fine, you can investigate that but I rly don't think that is true. I'm just saying that bc they have said they don't feel like a woman. I'll agree that Finn isn't very feminine necessarily to a degree. But why does it matter? Isn't Finn happy? I think they are more pissed about their instagram going down. But anyways, Ashley is totally just a girl lol. Whether you like it or not, that is a woman as much as many cis women are. That's just how it is when someone is truly a transsexual. Many other trans woman like her exist and when your intention and ability to be feminine is so pure and very evident, they should just be called a woman. For people like Ashley, the trans part doesn't matter unless intimacy is involved, either. I don't think she can just take that off, nor does she want to. Huge difference when you think ab it like that.
This really sums up my thoughts too. I genuinely feel bad for Ray, because I think, due to so much societal shame, and some serious health concerns because the methods of HRT that ignorant endocringolists prescribe is harmful, he's chosen to find ways to repress this side of him by going on a philisophical tirade on his own feelings. And he's now found himself in an echo chamber of people who actually are *disgusted* by who he was (but won't admit it in the comments here). That's so sad to be on their side. A side of fake "truth", in reality humans don't care for truth but for truth of their beliefs. And this belief, is a dangerous one. These people in the comments are encouraging him that he's gone under a wise transformation back to reality (note: *their* reality). It's all like a villian origin story. It's a feeling myself and so many others deeply understand. I wish Ray and others could say, "Look, I'm just hurt. I'll never truly know why I have these desires, I miss my masuclinity, and no one in society seems to understand my gender fludiity". Well, something like that.
@@chrisfandrade16 how do you define "reality"? Is it subjective? objective? Both? Do you have to believe in gravity for it to have an effect on you? What makes you believe those who follow Rays page are "disgusted" by him when he identified as a woman? Do you see these issues as only haing two perspectives? For or against?
How is Ashley "totally just a girl...a woman just as much as many cis women" ? How would one know? Sounds like you define "woman" based on displays of cultural femininity rather than on sex?
@@Gingerblaze Yes, I do think this! A woman can be a male, but a male cannot be female. Someone can be a man or a woman without being that full biological sex. Ashley makes no claims she is a female. She is just a woman. Her and her boyfriend talk about this often. He is also on HRT and he still uses his birth pronouns. Promise you need to just reassess your separation of sex and gender. Gender is gender and sex is sex. They are separate and one can contradict the other, completely. There's too much evidence showing this. And anyways, I'm trans and take hormones but I refuse to call myself a woman, though I do respect Ashley. I will not disrespect others in how they ask to be referred to as, but my personal view is that a male is a male and a female is a female, and I will leave it at that for you to think on for a little. Much love,
@@RayAlexWilliams I gave a bunch in another video and you basically ignored 90% of the arguments and misinterpreted one (which tbf was ambiguous on my part) Where do you think reddit posts lie in the evidence hierarchy, Dr Reddit? 🧐
Right about here: Proferes, N., Jones, N., Gilbert, S., Fiesler, C., & Zimmer, M. (2021). Studying reddit: A systematic overview of disciplines, approaches, methods, and ethics. Social Media+ Society, 7(2), 20563051211019004.
@@RayAlexWilliams I'll take a look at that Do you think what you do is anything near them tho? From your logic since r/lesbians is an nsfw subdreddit and its bigger than the sfw subreddits does that mean porn is a big reasonf for why people become lesbian in the first place?
@@RayAlexWilliams That is not enough extensive studies to claim absolute truth on a theory in the *social* sciences of Psychology, a field where we create labels not as true explanations of the nature of the mind (such as philosophy or mathematics or physics or neuroscience may seek) but rather for usefulness in helping patients. I’m not convinced AGP helps many people or can be claimed as truth with just these studies. It appears to be a theory used as a repressive agent against one’s own desires.
You know you've made it on YT when other channels start doing response videos {I know you did a response/critique video first}. Congratulations Ray your infamy is growing!
My friend is 68 and her husband suffers from this mental illness. He’s tormented and she has to deal with his temper tantrums and massive insecurities around it all. All the affirmation hasn’t lessened his suffering. He really needs real therapy by someone who understands the condition. The state of the medical profession is so subpar. I wonder if they will ever take responsibility for their dropping the ball on this issue? These are grown ups. I can’t imagine the kids and parents being gaslit. I’m team Elon. It’s a war.
Is it his agp, or non conformity that is causing the distress, or is it the stigmatizing, insulting, belittling of him for it that causing that? It is my thinking A LOT of this is due directly to the stigmazation of femininity in males, and honestly it is really looking like in some females. The stigma being attached to the crossing of arbitrary gender lines, the shaming being much more directed at males.
Maybe they used the wrong term and said "projection" when they meant you were applying what is known as "false consensus". I'm not saying who is right or wrong. just that false consensus doesn't require lack of self awareness, it means you don't understand others.
but isn't that the point of telling people your own understanding and experience so that others have the option to say hey this is me or not as the case may be in order to possibly gain greater insight..but in this case they don't even want to listen period.. it's just hands over the ears going la la la.
@@bepitanI don’t think he’s *just* saying it’s his own experience. He’s also laughing at them saying “you are AGP whether you like it or not”. Such an approach isn’t geared towards insight but rather absolutism and lack of compassion. As is the case with the origin of the theory. So, were it to gain traction, you can imagine the consequences it would entail based on its origin.
@@chrisfandrade16 .. i can see what laughter might look like to the person who does not understand but if you were to follow the logic of his argument then you would laugh too at some of the retorts thrown his way. The truth is the truth and it has no compassion.
@@bepitan Not only are you completely lacking compassion in a social science field regarding patients, you are stupendously arrogant to think you found "truth". Science does not purport ever finding "truth". It is to find approximations and continue an ever-lasting refininement of the approximation. Frankly, your lack of compassion and arrogance is disgusting. AGP is not "truth". It is a theory, and honestly moreso used as a weapon for personal and outwardly repression of acceptance, than any kind of "truth". Gosh, it's terrifying to see people so confident in their judgements on others. For the sake of your own long-term happiness, I implore you to socialize more with the rest of your fellow human beings in this world.
love this ray - I do think that some people are trans and AGP and it possible that some people have a deeper tie to their transness as an identity vs something they just do when aroused - the problem is trans people who are enttitled to opposite sex spaces because as a woman I dont care what you identify as, it is a human rights violation to put woman and intact males in the same prison cell
***to clarify I think anyone w gender dysphoria is happy to be seen as their preferred version of themselves, sometimes to a sexual degree and sometimes not
I don't feel entitled to use women's spaces. I avoid them, but also avoid male spaces, and gee, I wonder why that would be. 🤔 You also don't know what I think about the source of my gender dysphoria. I don't make claims about metaphysics and souls. I can say, "I don't know for sure, but," I think it is complicated. People are complicated. Take a look at Internal Family Systems or dissociative disorders, and see how those things can influence our sense of self. I didn't have any choice in the matter, is how I felt, from a young age. My story isn't typical to an AGP, which is why I dislike you or others forcing that onto me as if it is some truth. If you're going to accept trans people, then there isn't any reason to force this on us. I'm okay with AGP, and don't think it is necessarily a fetish, like you explain, but try not to label me or others who say, "Hey, that doesn't sound like my story at all," that way.
So given that Ray is intent on labeling others, one is entitled to wonder why. He claims in this video that he just wants to de-stigmatize people who identify as AGP. But his way of doing that seems to be to troll social media and to try and force that label on to people who don't identify that way. It would be akin to claiming that a same sex attracted person isn't in fact same sex attracted because they once had sex with a person of the opposite sex. If he just wanted to de-stigmatize AGP, he would talk about his own experience of it, his own challenges with it and his own experience of having it accepted as a legitimate sexuality by his partners. Actually, even if every non-HSTS woman agreed with Ray, how would that help de-stigmatize AGP? Wouldn't we still be left with the same societal stigma that exists now? So the claim that he just wants to de-stigmatize AGP is false, or at least his methods of doing it are. It seems to me, he wants to de-legitimize people's self-declared identity, akin to the 'your not really a lesbian because you slept with a man' trope, so as to boost the justification for his own.
@@connor5669 Yeah, it's an unfalsifible theory that has a "gotcha" for no matter how you feel...truly humane for a *social* science theory. What is the use of this?
Truly, I’m not saying your experience doesn’t matter, but it’s not typical and that’s what we focus on. If anything, you’re the exception that proves the rule and you should carry yourself as such and not try to run from the stigmas of the group you claim to be apart of.
on the note of critiquing GC people and their representations of AGPs as all fetishy and as all perverts and whatnot... I dont completely disagree because there is a certain flavour that gets pushed to the forefront of a lot of GC content (the kind that tends to overlap with conservative/RW commentary, i've tended to find) that's just plain cruel, but I also would say thats coming from a place of like.... even if you're a "normal" AGP, it's still something that I think makes women uncomfortable to be aware of even in everyday? It still started erotic, as you said... and that is just gonna be baseline offensive to females, regardless of its "source" or if it "fades away". As so many TRAs deny its existence and normalize basically .... wearing their fetish in day-to-day society, I'm sorry but we have to REALLY draw attention to the fact that it does manifest as a fetish. That this is an offensive way to view females (or its just the reality that we're going to take it that way). We can accept that it's reality for some men, especially with the state of the Internet as it is in ushering certain mindsets along, but that doesn't mean we have to just be complacent if they're going to be unwilling to have the conversations YOU seem to be willing to have (I do also need to give credit where it's due: your channel and everything you're putting out here takes serious guts and I'm personally so grateful that this conversation is getting started). I'm very much of the opinion that yes, anyone can have whatever "fetish/kink" they want (within reason with consenting adults), but I (and anyone else interacting in day to day) shouldn't have to know about it. If I know about it? Guess what, it's open to critique and judgement. And these guys are literally wearing it as a costume so...yeah, idk. What's our response as women supposed to be?
You're right but I do not think there is any particular way in which you can explain to the public that something which has a paraphilia at its root should be normatively accepted. Expressing your deepest authentic self sounds lot more appealing to people than conforming to an in essence paraphilic desire.
You are right in saying that Ray's points will never appeal to the general population or most trans people, he will also probably only ever convince a small amount of trans people since these ideas challenge a trans person's entire identity. However I do not believe that every trans person's desire to transition comes from paraphilia, if it did they would detransition due to disatisfaction(as they would never have had an actual desire to be the another gender) however only about 1% of people detransition so there must be people who feel more comfortable in their new body and are not doing it just for a fetish. Furthermore the idea that 80 million people(aprox global trans population) all share this very niche fetish is absurd. But even if a small minority of trans people transitioned due to paraphilia, why make trans people face that chance? Why make them question if their identity is based off a fetish? If they're happy, whats the problem with living in ignorance? A lot of our desire and joy comes from dark places. Fetishes are inately joy coming from a dark place. But no wants to psychoanalyze themselves and question every source of joy in their life. Why are we forcing trans people to question their joy on the offchance that it may come from a bad place(even though there are many other common joys that come from much darker places)?
If you are an Autogynephile it's with you from childhood, the perverted side of it appears when one watches porn, it creates a twisted view of what a woman's sexuality is like, and AGPs try to represent that. As a teenager I would wanna dress like how girls looked like in pop music magazines, only turned more into a sexual fetish once I started watching BDSM. Was never really about heels, knee highs and leather before that. Old school transvestites used to dress like grannies, with perms and blouses. Modern day AGPs just wanna look like pick me girls.
@@andrenikolsky well that's the point, only a woman will know what that feels like. AGPs just think they know what it feels like based on porn or what they see on the internet.
Of course, this experience goes beyond kink or fetish. My first experience of mocking a movie male character dates back to age 4 or 5. I clearly remember LIKING him first, and then, in some strange and unexplainable burst of envy, portraining the character in front of bedroom mirror. What sexual drive can a girl of 5 have?! I am a very feminine woman, enjoy wearing dresses, etc. But...I adore visiting man departments in clothes shops and malls. It is pleasurable, although I dont understand why....I would never wear that, just find it very attractive. Have never experienced gender disphorya, still very well feel ( like Phill Illy describing his experience) what gender euphoria is
It's a myth that our sexual orientation only begins to manifest in behavior upon the start of puberty. For example, little boys who grow up to heterosexual men might develop emotional, non-sexual "crushes" on girls pre-puberty. That is a manifestation of the underlying sexual orientation even if it's not explicitly sexual or erotic in nature. Autoheterosexuality is the same thing. And no, the theory doesn't say the root is "fetishistic kink." The root is a predisposing factor of inverted heterosexual orientation, which may or may not eventually develop into explicitly fetishistic behavior.
@@RayAlexWilliamsthere's no actual straight man would want to be feminine or feel or want to be a woman, this is all the result of corn addiction and s*x addiction and g*y men wanting to feel or want to be the woman in front of people in a g*y relationship but to be seen as a hetero couple because fem g*y men feel ashamed of being the fem in the relationship esp when they wanna be introduced to a the partner's family and friends so they used the trans ideology as a loophole, a coping mechanism , u yourself admitted to being bisexual by saying that you're attracted to femboys lol so no you're not straight so Basically it's not straight men who r transitioning it's g*y and bi men like u who do it or did it not to mention that autism is very common with trans people
I have been thinking of a new classification format for homosexuals. There are two types of homosexuality: one is feminine gays and the other is masculine gays. Feminine gays are a byproduct of AGP, and masculine gays are a byproduct of something else (e.g hormonal/natural/utero exposure, genes, chemicals).
There are likely multiple etiologies of male homosexuality. Blanchard's fraternal birth order effect studies have shown that feminine gay men typically have more older brothers than masculine gay men, which suggests that the cause of homosexuality in feminine gay males more often originates in whatever causes the FBOE than does homosexuality in masculine gay males. Autogynephilia is also likely the etiology of some male homosexuality. Blanchard wrote: -"Bisexual gender dysphorics represent those cases in which the autogynephilic disorder gives rise to some secondary erotic interest in males that coexists with the individual's basic attraction to females." - "Analloerotic gender dysphorics represent those cases in which the autogynephilic disorder nullifies or overshadows any erotic attraction to women; those cases, in Hirschfeld's metaphor, in which "the woman within" completely supplants her fleshly rivals." Combining these two theoretical propositions, it follows that some AGPs will lack interest in women and also have interest in men, which means that some will have homosexual preferences.
The whole concept is fascinating. Im not trans or adp or whatever but i imagine if i met a real woman that looked very much like me it would be really off-putting. I wonder if it would be different if i was better looking 😅
Like other psychological criteria, it isn't really a matter of filling out a checklist of questions/symptoms. It's a matter of "clinical presentation" -- do you overall fill the "pattern" of AGP or not? By looking at other "cases" you can learn to spot the pattern. That's how a lot of professional diagnosis of things works.
If you are MTF, then you are AGP if you are gynephilic, bisexual, or analloerotic. Another way of figuring out if you're AGP is if you answer affirmatively to this question: Have you ever become aroused from wearing women's clothes or from imagining yourself as a woman?
Sorry but I think the AAP claim needs a study behind it before we can consider it anything other than speculation. Males and females have very different sexual impulses and even if AAP were a thing it would likely be a tiny minority exacerbated by modern access to p. Very very different to AGP
It is quite different to AGP. At its core, AAP and AGP are filtered through male and female se xuality. I’m less skeptical after watching some of Phil Illy’s interviews with self-described AAPs. I think if a woman cannot climax without imagining she has a pe nis, that is a good indication of AAP. However, female sexuality doesn’t have the intense, consuming, urgent nature of male se xuality, which makes it feel unlike a typical para philia.
@@StormBringer5Why can't people answer my simple questions in ways that don't raise issues? Seems suspect that I get a huge variety of differing, even contradictiory, answers to the same questions from people who have all read the same material and that their responses are often vague or have flaws. It's also suspect that Im so often told to play hunt go fetch rather than be given an answer, or told to stop asking questions.
@@someonesomeone25 inverted orientations are directed inward toward the self. They are atypical sexual attractions and therefore fall under the broad heading of "paraphilia", but its perhaps most accurate to describe them as paraphilic sexual orientations.
I saw you on Phil Illi and I also thought you seemed to project some. Sure AGP is real, but not everyone has it. I don't. If you want to try to convince me I will keep and open mind and let you try. I made some videos talking about my transition and reasons. Maybe it's just agp and none of the stuff in my videos matters? Hmm
I am one of your GC , although I prefer to call myself Sex Realist fans. I appreciate your endeavors to de-stigmatize AGP & bring it out of the shadows. Let's just be REAL. It is a slippery slope, to tred, because on the one hand - honoring one's own innate experience of femininity as a man should be celebrated and honored, as one should celebrate one's innate experience of masculinity as a woman. But because the Judeo-Christian so enforces this extreme binary of roles and historically has shamed and demonized any gender non-conforming person - there is a sense of taboo around this exploration. And this taboo ends up mutating into AGP and AAP. I am wondering if it would - if that identity were fully integrated into our life and personality in our own unique way? I personally have always between attracted to metrosexuals - and men who freely express the "feminine" aspects of their personalities in a non-stigmatizing way. I think of men like Prince, or Gay men ( I have had intimate relationships with men who had never had hetero or were clearly had homosexual preferences or attractions). I have had AAP fantasies at times, but never wanted to reject my body or co-opt manhood. I think what troubles me the most is the pornified fantasies of femininity of many AGP whether they are Trans or not. The conflation of male fantasy of women as objects of degradation, submission, humiliation bleeds out into rape culture, sexual abuse and psychological manipulation of women and girls, and historically caused and continues to cause great harm. This extreme expression of AGP is I believe NOT just AGP itself but comorbid with other paraphilias like sexual sadism, pedophilia, voyeurism and exhibitionism, which I do not believe should EVER BE NORMALIZED in the greater social world. Whether it has a place in kink clubs - is another subject. But once a person Transitions - they are entering a sphere where they are more likely to start controlling the narrative as the opposite sex they are cosplaying as. And this is HIGHLY problematic for women and girls who are JUST Embodying their OWN feminine power and integrating it with our experience of masculine power/identity. We are tired of having men continually map their fantasies of what feminine over us - and denying us OUR RIGHT to tell our own stories and take up space in the world as women in bodies whose bodies whose biological and social needs have been ignored, belittled, and attacked. So it is really difficult for women who are being attacked for wanting their OWN private spaces and to maintain control of the experience and narration of what womanhood/girlhood is to be calm and measured about AGP. Basically Male sexual fantasies of the feminine reified in TWs have received MORE political clout than TRUE women's and girl's rights : abortion rights, birth control, family leave, childcare, intetnational rights of girls to education etc. This is what is absolutely enraging. How many billions of dollars have been wasted on celebrating regressive sexual fantasies of femininity through the male gaze - while women and girls are subjugated to poverty and ignorance the world over? It is truly an insult. The entitlement of men to center their whole lives around their sexual pleasure to the detriment of everything else is just infuriating. Enough already! And yes, I believe our behaviors are extensions of our biology - but that is where the brain comes in - sexual energy and impulse can also be channeled into non-destructive avenues like creative arts like art, sport, entrepreneurship, community building, etc - JUST focusing on gender and sex - is the least one can do with one's vital life-giving energy. For God sakes these people desperately need to pursue hobbies and holistic help integrating their masculinity and femininity into a healthy /happy and socially harmonious identity.
I did message you on x good sir and shockingly so like ive said before i actually like finn mostly he was kinda bringing femboys back but then he got with Ashley and started transitioning I think most of their people are not correctly interpreting what youre trying to say which may be an interpretation of your tone but its really just trying to help our brothers and sisters be aware so to speak of what really starts this Domino effect they think it applies to them not realizing it's only the weirdo's that have just agp and typically dont transition well that is a main tell agp evolves into full dysphoria i believe or a precursor so to speak Im only speaking from my perspective as i was trying to force things to work w a sex i wasnt attracted to enough at all for decades agp typically still prefer women or at least carry a 50/50 to where the most severe cases of dysphoria and most successful transitions are of people that stuck to the hetero norm of what they were transitioning to Main difference between "transgender" and transsexual imo More pipebombs i love it kinda sucks you have to explain what you really mean tho 😅😅
Gender can't be changed, if AGP becomes transgender that's - she was transgender. AGP is not real, it's a thing that someone gets when she starts to suppress her gender.
Neither, eggs or chickens don't appear just like that. For life to evolve it has to go through, formation of simple organic molecules from inorganic precursors. ---> Assembly of these molecules into more complex structures, such as proteins and nucleic acids. ---> Development of self-replicating molecules, likely RNA or similar precursors. ---> Formation of primitive cell-like structures (protocells) that could contain and protect these molecules. ---> Evolution of metabolic processes to maintain and reproduce these early life forms, and now you have to wait for long ass time for boring life form to evolve to a chicken (millions of years) The chicken or the egg joke annoys me, how can it possibly be funny?
Ray, if you want the theories you talk about and your opinions to be considered by the trans community and the world with an open mind, then you should make it very clear that you are not questioning the existence of trans people(by calling transitioning a fetish or through any other means). Instead you are just trying to create awareness on AGP. You must agree that some of the theories you talk about imply that transitioning is just a fetish, this idea goes against the identity of trans people and can be used to argue against their rights. Because this idea is so dangerous to trans people, they will understandbly never look at your opinions with an open mind. Maybe making your intentions clear at the start of your videos would help people have an open mind. Furthermore, a siginificant portion of community is completely and utterly transphobic. They make you seem transphobic as well. It may be a good idea to openly disagree with any clearly transphobic comments on your videos.
Technically under Blanchards theory all men can be autogynephiles. The criteria is not very high, but in the core test gay men generally scored lower than straight men and bi-sexuals scored higher. Age may also be a factor but was not tested.
No. Though some AGPs "appear" to be gay men insofar as they might exclusively data men, but that stems from "pseudo-bisexuality." See this video: ruclips.net/video/43PjBIERBzU/видео.htmlsi=DRMaBDicbt8On79w
Yes, there is some overlap between those. However, the case might be that there are two types of h***se*uality. One is caused by AGP, and the other is natural "real androphilia"
You got the attention you so desire from transwomen. That was the whole point! You can't be one credibly so you'll bring them down and they'll come attack you. How do you beat to that?
I was a natural, enthusiastic gesticulator as a kid/teenager and then a teacher got on me about it. Then I went to Italy for a few years and it was great being amongst people who gesticulate-who allow themselves to feel/express passionately with their face and body. IMO it’s healthy ~ it’s a way to connect mind/body/emotions. What matters is good nature 💜and truthfulness. (I mean, the man with the mustache gesticulated too but it communicated horror.)
Gesticulation is a way to add visual metaphors to add context and emotion to emphasize your points. It helps people understand you better and makes for better storytelling.
Hi Ray Thanks for all the effort to create educational and informative content. As a ( very boring 😉) heterosexual woman, I have been learning a great deal here. Would be good to interview an Autoandrophile female here too. Keen to hear from that side of the spectrum as well. Have a great weekend Xx
I think when Icky accuses you of projecting, she is saying that you are mapping your experience of being autogynephilic onto other trans women. However, I don't think you are projecting because I think you came to your conclusions about most MTFs being AGP from reading things published by Blanchard, Lawrence, and me. If your beliefs came from reading books and studies, it's not projection, it's just having knowledge. I think you spoke particularly clearly and fluently in this video and therefore it's a good video, but I don't think your argument refuted the accusation of projection like it would have if your argument against projection was instead "it's not projection based on my own experience, it's knowledge from scientific writings".
Good points raised 👍
Icky did not take Ray's arguments seriously and even vilified him to a certain extent. She did this because the theories he talks about have anti trans implications. Some of them imply that transitioning is just a fetish. Even though they are based on research and studies, she and the majority of trans people will dismiss them immediately because they call into question what they consider their basic rights as trans people. No gay person would ever listen to any argument that even slightly implies that homesexuality is untrue or unreal(even if it is based on studies and theories), this is because it infringes on their rights as a people and their identity. It is a very natural emotional and human reaction. Furthermore, this type of immediate dismisal of any anti trans arguments is good for the advancement of trans rights. Both the gay rights and women's suffrage movements vilified and dismised the arguments of the people who critizized the movements. This led to both movements succeding with greater ease. This is what the trans community is also trying to do by "canceling" anyone who even slightly questions their rights(no matter how well researched their arguments are), this causes some acually reasonable theories like some Ray talks about to fall on deaf ears. However imo, it is for the greater good of trans people and (again, this sentence is very much my subjective opinion) humanity.
"....and me." -Enuff said.
Posie Parker didn't put up with your narcisstic BS and neither should transwomen or those who use gender medicine. That's quite a coalition.
@@shaurya5866 she didnt take the arguments seriously because theyre ridiculous pseudo scientific nonsense that couldve come straight out of mouth some freud fanboy on 4chan
@@phililly Thank you so much for commenting here! I can’t wait to watch your videos and read some of your published work! Subscribed! 🤗
It’s so crazy how these people will cry “no kink shaming”, yet they shame autogynephilia, and they’re so ashamed of their own kink that they can’t even acknowledge that it’s real! They have to reframe it as something they perceive as innocent in order to try to accept it. They aren’t fooling anyone.
Actually, I take that back, they’ve managed to fool *a lot* of people, sadly.
They say it's not a kink. Which is it
I'll be honest. My girst time I put on a skirt like item was at 5 years old. I did not get aroused, and I did not see myself as a girl. No fantasy, no shame. But I did know I liked it. Then my mom found me. "Oh your father has to see this". She then led me through to the kitchen and as ee entered " oh look at what we have here, a little fruit loop", what proceeded was me being subjected to what turned out to be homophobic slurs, and trans phobic slurs, and told I was bad. All I did was put on an effing slip. All this did was have me learn to run under the radar, but also have shame in something I found pleasant. I think this sort of thing is what leads to AGP, as well as fetish. It is the stigmatizing of crossing arbitrary gender lines that feeds these issues.
If you have AGP you are just transgender. Because you can't block everything about your gender, something will stay...
I am sorry to hear that you went through that. Indeed, shaming as an initial impulse for AGP formation should be studied.
Terrible parenting.
@@someonesomeone25 It was parenting of the time. They THOUGHT they were doing me good. I also KNOW I am not alone in this experience. This in 1977, and anti-gay stuff was big time. "Gay Bashing" was a thing as well. My parents did this to sway me away from being gay...funny thing being I have never been attracted to men. I just liked nice clothes. :P
@@BillPhlorgian I definitely think the whole Non Binary thing is rooted in this sort of thing for sure. I didn't post this though to get sympathy, I posted it to get it out this sort of crap happened, and it is NOT always Porn related, nor is it about wanting to be another sex.
(1) Some of us trans people are Atheist
(2) Some of us trans people believe that the body is just a shell
(3) Some of us trans people understand you can morph the human body with synthetic hormones
(4) Transhumanism does not start off with porn...
(5) Transhumanism starts off with saying... Which shell do I like best.
(6) The vast majority of human are sexual
(7) However progressively as males age their sex drive goes down Ray.
(8) If transgender behaviour was predominantly sex drive based you would see it go down significantly as humans age.
(9) Cite your references and show us your charts.
Se xual orientation based, not se x drive based. Alan Turing didn’t stop being ga y after the British government chemically cast rated him. AGPs also don’t stop being AGP after being chemically cast rated or because they age.
@@StormBringer5
(1) Type in the word autogynephilia into Google
(2) What is the first thing that you see?
(3) A reference to being (S) arroused
(4) Seems to be a word deliberately designed to disrespect people
(5) Playing upon the prudish nature of people from the mainstream
(6) Otherwise it would just be referred to as cross dressing...
(7) I was suggesting that there is more than on reason why people have an alternative identification
(8) Autogynephilia is a word use to vilify trans.
(9) Disingenuous of Ray to use such a word
(10) He is self projecting...
(11) It's not (S) orientation...For alot of people
(12) Ray need to prove his numbers
AGP may be used to vilify some trans people but that was not Blanchard’s intention. His intention was uncover the clear differences in etiology between homose xual and heterose xual males. AGP exists to describe a causal factor that leads to gender dysphoria in many males.
Males often use the word “prudish” when describing their se xuality in relation to others, specifically females. They seem to forget this is just evolutionary biology. Because females waste more time and resources on raising offspring, they are on average are more mate selective, have lower se x drives, and focus more on quality mate selection than the act of se x itself. This is evolutionary safeguarding, it’s not “prudish” (again, these are averages).
It is not described as cross dressing because AGP encompasses a variety of behaviors not limited to clothing. The 5 types are transve stic, behavioral, anatomical, interpersonal, and physiologic. You can have all are only one, but transve stic does seem to be the most common.
@@StormBringer5
(1) Any good science could be replicated
(2) Where is a more recent study?
(3) Show the methodology...cite the papers
@@caffeinatedhuman4035are u that lazy or illiterate or regraded or a troll that u can't find it for yourself?
Ray, I think the kernel of truth in the projection claim is that you are speculating about F1nn and Icky's sexuality in essentially the same way you are accusing Icky of doing to F1nn.
You have an identity label, AGP, that you are seeing people and how they behave through. You notice the pattern and are applying it to people you think match.
This is similar to the problem faced by gender nonconforming people now being told that "they might be trans", by well meaning friends. [This is what I think happened with Icky towards F1nn. But I'm only capable of speculation here because I don't have access to Icky's thoughts]
Projection does not imply rejection of the trait being projected. For example: newly diagnosed Autistic people have a tendency to see evidence of the condition everywhere. Developing a new identity changes what you ignore and what you find salient.
I really appreciate the content you are putting out. As a genderfluid AGP I think its our responsibility to not subject people to the same speculations that made our own identity confusion worst.
Scientific models enable prediction and extrapolation based on certain variables. That’s the whole point of the theory.
I totally agree
The issue comes in when you assign the label to them unbidden.
Neutrally presenting AGP, AutoHet, or AGAMP, might be a better strategy. Since people often avoid psychiatric diagnosis to avoid label stigma.
They clearly haven't read or looked into the sexology literature on the topic.
The thing that pushed me toward this diagnosis was familiarizing myself with the topic and the abundance of correlated traits that I could identify in my development.
I think if I was told by someone that I was AGP prior to personally researching the topic, especially with the trans-party discipline around the subject, I'd probably reject it out of hand too.
How do you think you would have felt 4 or 5 years ago being told that by someone you didn't know?
@@RayAlexWilliamsMaybe if the theory was watertight, uncontroversial, and backed by international expert consensus, it would make more sense to act with such confidence. But Blanchardianism isn't exactly evolutio or gravity..
Sadly, psychology data like the clinical case histories that Blanchard used to develop the theory are notorious for how noisy they are.
There are clear reasons for this. If you have a progressive condition, its likely you won't check all the boxes if you are tested early.
Strong correlations with Autism further complicate these studies because of Autism's highly variable expression. [Asexuals and hyper-sexuals in the same category]
This is a general limitation of Clinical Case study data and not Sexology research specifically.
Id say that the 2-type typology is massively preferable to the folk-theory of transgenderism being pushed around today. At the same time, we need to be cognizant of how porous the boundaries of the categories are.
It's equivalent to going around telling bisexual people that they're confused, not really same sex attracted. A bisexual women in a lesbian women's space gets this kind of push-back every now and again (e.g. 'goldstar' lesbians vs bisexual women). Ray even used this term in one of his other videos. It's presumptive, offensive and discriminatory to think you can tell somebody else what their sexuality is, I don't see why that shouldn't also apply to gender.
I genuinely couldn't give a crap what fetishes people do/don't have, in their private life. I'd rather NOT know, tbh...
But the key part of that is "IN THEIR PRIVATE LIFE"... Whether they want to label it "a fetish", or "my super-duper special (but entirely evidence-free) identity", or "my religious belief", or whatever else, doesn't matter; WHEN YOU DEMAND FOR US TO AFFIRM IT, with special, opposite-sex grammar rules just for you, with special privileges to invade opposite-sex spaces, off-limits to ALL OTHER members of your own sex, YOU have chosen to put this "fetish/religious belief/whatever the hell it is" on the table for public scrutiny...
Responding to that scritiny, by saying "Nuh-UH!! You're just projecting YOUR OWN fetish!!" just comes off as childish and desperate, when directed at someone who ISN'T DEMANDING SPECIAL TREATMENT/PRIVELEGES...
... coz its the entire reason any of this stuff is an issue, is those special privileges (so-called "trans rights"... But how is it a "right", when NOBODY ELSE gets to invade opposite-sex spaces, and NOBODY ELSE gets to control the language of others. Those are "special privileges", not "rights")
Nobody cares what thoughts you have inside your head... People DO care, when you demand special priveleges, and prioritize yourself above the rights of everyone else...
Rights don't exist. Prople just fight to get their preferences instantiated in society.
No one is demanding you to give them special treament by using pronouns, it is a request. If you do not comply with the request, some trans people may not want to interact with u, that is the only consequence you face. The right for trans people to use different bathrooms is not something you can decide on, it is something that society as a whole must deciede and create laws on. No matter the outcome, you just have to deal with it. I don't think it's unfair in any way, they are a community of people who is arguing for the rights they believe they should have, nothing wrong with that. If the majority of people share your view they will not recieve those rights, if they don't then they will. Currently, the majority disagrees with you.
Autogynefillia is not fetish, there is no man enjoying being a woman, it causes gender dysphoria
I would agree that trans people do take an extra step in introducing to a concept as “gender” which affects you and society. However, what is wrong with that? Through public discourse and a democratic process, we agreed to provide “rights” to trans folk. Please remember, that despite your anger and your hatred of people demanding things, we are discussing people who have a mental condition of dysphoria related to being the wrong sex or sex role in society, and despite what many authors like Ray think, the science is *not* decided on anything yet. Perhaps you should engage in respectful polite debate for the various concerns you have, and additionally, perhaps you should have compassion for an experience you are not familiar with, and come at it with inquisitiveness and curiosity, if you wish to learn something. Trans rights are protections against hateful groups who literally seek to even physically hurt others. And as said, being trans indeed *requires* a new theory of gender, that has so far won major public discourse in some areas. And I personally believe the new theory of gender, although not totally scientifically valid, is one very small step in a new, better direction.
I believe you are a master teacher and this is your calling. What a beautiful thing to take the shame out of something.
When I feel shame especially deep shame it doesn't bring good things out of me. It will make a liar out of me. I find it so hard to face. How are we supposed to figure something out if shame is stopping us from seeing it. Plus it's still there buried inside us and that is a horrible thing.
If your attackers really don't believe this is them that's cool but if they don't why don't they just let it go. If they really believe this doesn't apply to them why do they feel the need to defend themselves against it.
To purport he is a “master” teacher is quite an ego-stroke, and that would make me doubt the validity of a a supposed "non-emotionally-fuelled, purely scientific claim", based on these kind of follower responses. It's suggestive this theory if forming more of an oppressive (or internally repressive) cult.
These people attack Ray because he is the voice of a truth that is very inconvenient to their cause.
What is the cause?
i had this right wing shltlord phase too when i was not allowed to transition by gatekeepers and family.
No, he’s just kind of a judgmental dick about it. There are many self declared AGPs that are very pleasant becuz they don’t tell other trans people how to live their lives 🤷🏼♀️
@@someonesomeone25 The cause is promoting the notion that gender identity and sexual orientation have no connection.
@@bulldogklaus47 I don't know ow anyone who argues they have no connection. But I don't think they're the same thing, obviously. A lot is going to depend upon exactly what is meant by terms like 'orientation' and 'connected'.
So I'm.not sure what cause exists as you've defined it.
I have much respect to you for your scientific attitude towards this issue. Only in this way can society truly progress, not through ideology.
i would like to see a one on one umpired live stream debate of say ray vs icky on the subject of agp ..but somehow i doubt icky would be that foolish to agree to such an event going by the strengths of her arguments to date. However it's high time agp is fully aired on the mainstream media to get everyone thinking about this elephant in the room.. too many agp's have been confused about their own condition and have made poor life choices as a result of that.
I would much rather have a debate with a scholarly sort such as Julia Serano.
@@RayAlexWilliams agreed.
A panel debate with experts would be much more profitable.
@@someonesomeone25 peter boghossian would make a superb referee ...he's the king of breaking down a complex argument into manageable logical parts.
@bepitan Doesn't he already have a firm view on the topic, though? He doesn't seem a neutral.
I'm glad you mentioned that there is analogous behavior in females. I wondered about that after looking at some reddits for trans men and seeing two distinct types; females who would have been butch lesbians had they not transitioned, and another type that looked much different and seemed very focused on being handsome and sexy. The ones in this second group seemed to be crushing on themselves, and I was struck by how girly they seemed when complimenting each other on their hotness.
That second type sounds a lot like Marcus Dib.
@@5-Volt I thought of him, given his appearance,, feminine affect and attraction to men. But to hear him tell it, he's genuinely dysphoric and I have no reason to think he's lying.
@@5-Volt I thought about him, given his appearance, affect and attraction to men. But to hear him tell it, he is classically dysphoric and I have no reason to question that.
Phil Illy has some interviews with AAPs. One AAP he interviewed suggested they’re more likely to fly under the radar because male se xuality is just more intense and consuming. By contrast, it makes female paraphilias just seem non-paraphilic.
@@StormBringer5 Some people in the field don't seem to know about them. I'm pretty sure Debra Soh, in The End of Gender, wrote that there is no female analog of autogynephilia.
They're not too under the radar in my very trans-supportive city. They show up on gay hook-up apps and at the bathhouse. The T seems to make them very guy-like in their approach.
I am in total agreement with you.
76 y.o. male. Married 40 years.
2 adult children.
Why can't this be acceptable?
It is SO much more common than people realize.
Great job ray. I could see the insane obsessive comment spamming by some people that really just proved your point. I like your explanations of the psychology and providing a balanced non TERF take on this topic.
Young women, in general take ALOT of pictures of themselves. Males might do so as well, were it not for the shaming and accusation of narcissism that get bandied about. But also and again, women's fashion is more expressive, more varied, more artistic, than male style overall. I have far more images of my "feminine" androgynous, gender non conforming styles than I do of my "masculine" styles cause honestly, you see one jeans and t shirt style, or one three piece suit style, you've seen them all. Again, I don't think that explosion of selfies in trans or agp folk has anything to do with those things, and just more to do with the vast differences available in "feminine" fashion.
Your commitment to nuance on this topic continues to impress me, and I learn so much from each video you post. Keep it up, my friend!
I think we need to establish what the standard for "debunking" a hypothesis would be. Because the people saying autogynephilia has been "debunked" don't seem to understand.
I think a great example is the autism causes vaccines claim. It was debunked when there were large scale, well made studies done showing there was no correlation between vaccines and autism. You would need to do the same to prove autogynephilia is not a precursor to some trans women's pathway to trans identification. And honestly, with the mountains of anecdotal evidence alone make that seem like an impossibility. We already know there are people such as yourself.
Some? Isn't the Blanchardian claim that all trans folk are either AGP or HSTS, with the vast majority being AGP?
Same with the claim that ROGD has been debunked. ROGD is just the classification of the cohort of people who identify as trans in their teens. You can't debunk it. That cohort exists. And AGP people exist.
*Picture this, Ray:*
_You_ on piano,
_Aaron_ (🍁) on banjo,
_Phil_ doing interpretative dance/gymnastics,
in _AUTOSEXVALITY - the Mvsical_
No need to credit me with the idea. Just make it happen.
This needs to be a thing.
Wait, it occurs to me the Aaron who's an autosexuality theory enjoyer may not be the banjo-playing Aaron, and they're not both Canadian.
My apologies to both Aarons for getting mixed up about that.
You revealed their fetish, that's the problem.
Or they genuinely think they don't have one. Both would lead to a reaction.
@spiralvoid45 No
@spiralvoid45 What's the difference between a fetish and an orientation?
@@Anne_Onymous Why?
@spiralvoid45 I haven't been able to figure out a coherent consensus on definitions and differences even with research. More importantly, I want to know how the person using them is using them, not what someone else.means by those terms.
I can only speak for myself on this topic but I have found your videos and discussions very de stigmatizing. They’ve helped me a lot w my own perceptions. I’m sure it’s difficult for others to adopt a theory that purports to describe them without a pretty solid amount of introspection. Anyways, here to support you!
Inverted heterosexuality doesnt make much sense. Heterosexuality by definition is sexuality towards other people.
@spiralvoid45 Aren't autosexuals those who fancy and have sex with their reflection? So, are AGP are those who basically want to have sex with their female clone/twin?
It's kinda more attraction to femininity & masculinity themselves & applying that attraction to oneself.
Sexual inversion was the name given to homosexuals when they were pathologized and treated as mentally unwell. The idea was that if your cure somebody's sexual inversion, you could cure their homosexuality. I've never come across the term 'interveted heterosexuality' except here on Ray's channel. Whether it's accepted amongst sexologist or not, the term smacks of the pathologization of transsexual women in the same way that homosexual were once pathologized. It is this king of pathologization that allows people who are ignorant on the topic to say that transsexuals must be mentally unwell. Given that the trans* community has broadly rejected the term, it doesn't seem to really be helping anyone but just feeding into prejudice and hate.
@@FaerieQueenCaelia The term is not "inverted heterosexuality" that's just a way of describing AGP, which like it or not, is a studied phenomenon & plenty of trans women describe feeling.
I appreciate your honesty and commitment to de-stigmatizing sexuality, and braveness to talk about it publicly. I think I was wrong about a few things in my last barrage of comments on your previous video. Except, I still doubt: 1. How useful or safe it would really be if the concept of AGP, instead of gender identity, was mainstream, considering how quick people are to hate 2. How AGP seems to be a bit too much of an un-falsibile, "catch-all", theory 3. Whether you are using this theory as a way to repress your own desires; it seems a bit inhumane in the way you speak (or lack to speak thereof) about your own trans experience.
So then I ask you, for public usefulness, do you have any suggestions for someone who is struggling with their strong desires to transition? How have you personally managed to cope after detransitioning? Do you think your desires only lessened to a manageable level, after trying out transition and seeing the reality of it?
Remember, psychology is a *social* science. To apply such rigorous logic and facts, as one would do with philosophy or mathematics, doesn’t work here because emotions are quite involved and thus your logic, as you see in many delusions, can be used then, in actuality, illogically, to turn personal emotional beliefs into “truth”. Labels such a “OCD”, “ADHD” exist not to prove existence of some true nature of the mind, but rather to describe a set of symptoms such that it can help people. I’m just not convinced the theory is focused on a compassionate approach, it seems to take a critical approach. That’s not what really what we want to do in psychology regarding dysphoric individuals, I think.
The brain differences in trans-women were only done on hsts who had already been on opposite sex hormones and were all hsts. However, not all non trans gay males display this brain difference and some straight non trans males do.
Not true! Swab did a follow op set of brain autopsies on those that weren't administered cross sexed hormones. He also found the later the transition the less feminized the brain. My experience what I call retirement aged transvestites tend to be very masculine with a very strong male identity like Caitlyn Jenner. They also tend to be the most deviant and fetish motivated.
The brain difference was also congruent in males who were gay or gender-non conforming who did NOT transition. So the need to transition is questionable.
@@lizadeeza Different regions of the brains were affected in Transsexuals and Homosexuals.
The differences in brain structure between male and female are small and not predictive of anything. Like all quantitative traits, they exist on a bell-curve with a variety of anatomical differnces. Finding one small anatomical difference, on average, between two populations does not allow you to definitively assign one person to a population based on that variable.
The courage it must take to do this. I can't imagine it.
❤
Would love to see an interview/discussion with someone who has autoandrophilia
Phil Illy actually has a lot of these! Honestly seeing interviews with AGPs and AAPs is very humanizing, I do think it’s great to see these people get more exposure.
Yeah same here
Its wrong when you intentionally expose your sexuality publicly and make it a part of your social identity however, even more so in front of children or people that didn't ask for this.
Would you say that gay people can’t talk about being gay in public and make it a part of their social identity?
Heterosexuals do it all the time. I think k people should be more sexually open and less prudish. Bigotry and prudery are brainworms.
I 100% agree. That's why children should never be at weddings as they are inherently sexualized spaces, and straight couples should never hold hands in public.
Are you then one of those goofballs telling people to keep it in the bedroom, and behind closed doors, even if they are decently attired , and behaving normally? Soooo, do you like the trans issue as it is?
I'll be honest. My girst time I put on a skirt like item was at 5 years old. I did not get aroused, and I did not see myself as a girl. No fantasy, no shame. But I did know I liked it. Then my mom found me. "Oh your father has to see this". She then led me through to the kitchen and as ee entered " oh look at what we have here, a little fruit loop", what proceeded was me being subjected to what turned out to be homophobic slurs, and trans phobic slurs, and told I was bad. All I did was put on an effing slip. All this did was have me learn to run under the radar, but also have shame in something I found pleasant. I think this sort of thing is what leads to AGP, as well as fetish. It is the stigmatizing of crossing arbitrary gender lines that feeds these issues.
I personally don't see my dysphoria as me having sexual ties. Though regardless of where it came from I do have it and I do struggle with the desire of wanting to be a very feminine girlish women. Don't know why but since I was five years old I've enjoyed wearing girl dresses and the most memorable times I had growing up were when I was younger playing with my older sisters with their old baby dolls. Fun times
I mean the main reason when you boil down to it for a lot of trans women are the facts that a lot of them want to find some level of reasoning as to why they are trans.
I know I suffer from this as well, where you want to rationalizes "how you always been trans." I think this line of thought makes trans identify males feel comfortable because then those don't end up denying the decision to go on hormones.
Are you sexually attracted to males?
I was a little girl who hated dresses and dolls. So , how does that make someone a girl ?
@@steph678Does that mean you're gender non-conforming?
@@someonesomeone25Exactly. Gender non-conformity should be embraced, we shouldn’t be telling people they’re the opposite gender if they engage in gender nonconformity.
Just because your experience is valid and it’s scientifically proven does not mean that trans experience is invalid. Scientific studies contradicts one another all the time especially when it comes to psychological sciences.
I think your time would be better spent on being yourself and less critical on others.
While I do believe that the messaging and activisism in the trans community can be confusing at times. A blanket dismissal of trans experience and the help people could get will cause more harm than good.
There should be better messaging and medical practitioners as well as people seeking help need to be well equipped and educated so they can make better decisions.
At the end of the day one’s life is one’s responsibility you need to do what’s right for you at the time.
How you use your experience and knowledge to define others people experience is no different than those girls’ behaviour. You’re both trying to validate your experience while projecting it onto others.
@spiralvoid45 that’s a fair comment. I whole heartedly agree with you and that’s what the messaging should be. If I wasn’t clear in my response I did criticise the other trans activists in their messaging as well. They are projecting their experience onto others as well. I also agree that the current discourse does not allow other type of experiences to be validated because for some reason they think it’s threatening their own experience and identity.
I believe in the experience of both sides but I don’t believe in validating one’s experience by projecting/ taking down/invalidating others, using science or not.
I believe we should all be allowed exists and express who we are without judgment. I’m rather disappointed that a lot of activisms lean too much on identity and us vs them mentality.
Thank you for raising a good point. I hope a future where how you may choose to express yourself is not too far away. Either way, live your life. Don’t let anyone tell you how to feel.
Ray I'm not trying to be a dick by saying this but I 1000% think that it does seem like deflective self projecting because you decided to deny yourself the right to transition. And that's why we are all annoyed... It is like sometimes you kiiiinnddaaaa pivot on/lean on saying that people should not transition, or can "deal" with their dysphoria. But the thing is, transitioning helps a lot for most people, so I wonder, is there something you aren't figuring out in yourself? Like, why don't you look more feminine? You can still be very feminine as a guy. Finnster did it for ages before HRT but you're totally getting rid of your feminine aspects. I guess here's the issue - I'll put it this way: The fact that you're able to take off your femininity and feel ok and deny yourself permanent transition, says a lot... It's the difference in you and me, at least, that's for sure. I've tried looking similar to your current style before. Just doesn't work for me, and yesterday one of my friends asked me about if I've ever worn any kinky clothing during sex, and what's funny is lol - Ray?? I actually realized I'd never thought about it, and I sort of reluctantly told her that I'd do it if she wanted, lol, but I said that like, feeling rly odd. I just want to be loved as a woman tbh lol. All of the platonic aspects matter more to me, and I only ever think of being a woman in terms of sexuality in terms of like self-pleasure and me feeling misaligned with my physical parts. I think this is the difference in being trans or not, if I had to guess... lol. Let's be clear I DO think there are A LOT of AGP trans ppl, and if u wanna argue that Finn is an AGP then fine, you can investigate that but I rly don't think that is true. I'm just saying that bc they have said they don't feel like a woman. I'll agree that Finn isn't very feminine necessarily to a degree. But why does it matter? Isn't Finn happy? I think they are more pissed about their instagram going down. But anyways, Ashley is totally just a girl lol. Whether you like it or not, that is a woman as much as many cis women are. That's just how it is when someone is truly a transsexual. Many other trans woman like her exist and when your intention and ability to be feminine is so pure and very evident, they should just be called a woman. For people like Ashley, the trans part doesn't matter unless intimacy is involved, either. I don't think she can just take that off, nor does she want to. Huge difference when you think ab it like that.
He is just trying to "cure" from transgender, that's why so much pressure is going on.
This really sums up my thoughts too. I genuinely feel bad for Ray, because I think, due to so much societal shame, and some serious health concerns because the methods of HRT that ignorant endocringolists prescribe is harmful, he's chosen to find ways to repress this side of him by going on a philisophical tirade on his own feelings. And he's now found himself in an echo chamber of people who actually are *disgusted* by who he was (but won't admit it in the comments here). That's so sad to be on their side. A side of fake "truth", in reality humans don't care for truth but for truth of their beliefs. And this belief, is a dangerous one. These people in the comments are encouraging him that he's gone under a wise transformation back to reality (note: *their* reality). It's all like a villian origin story. It's a feeling myself and so many others deeply understand. I wish Ray and others could say, "Look, I'm just hurt. I'll never truly know why I have these desires, I miss my masuclinity, and no one in society seems to understand my gender fludiity". Well, something like that.
@@chrisfandrade16 how do you define "reality"? Is it subjective? objective? Both? Do you have to believe in gravity for it to have an effect on you?
What makes you believe those who follow Rays page are "disgusted" by him when he identified as a woman? Do you see these issues as only haing two perspectives? For or against?
How is Ashley "totally just a girl...a woman just as much as many cis women" ? How would one know? Sounds like you define "woman" based on displays of cultural femininity rather than on sex?
@@Gingerblaze Yes, I do think this! A woman can be a male, but a male cannot be female. Someone can be a man or a woman without being that full biological sex. Ashley makes no claims she is a female. She is just a woman. Her and her boyfriend talk about this often. He is also on HRT and he still uses his birth pronouns. Promise you need to just reassess your separation of sex and gender. Gender is gender and sex is sex. They are separate and one can contradict the other, completely. There's too much evidence showing this. And anyways, I'm trans and take hormones but I refuse to call myself a woman, though I do respect Ashley. I will not disrespect others in how they ask to be referred to as, but my personal view is that a male is a male and a female is a female, and I will leave it at that for you to think on for a little. Much love,
Reddit research PhD clocking in yet again
Not a valid argument
@@RayAlexWilliams I gave a bunch in another video and you basically ignored 90% of the arguments and misinterpreted one (which tbf was ambiguous on my part)
Where do you think reddit posts lie in the evidence hierarchy, Dr Reddit? 🧐
Right about here:
Proferes, N., Jones, N., Gilbert, S., Fiesler, C., & Zimmer, M. (2021). Studying reddit: A systematic overview of disciplines, approaches, methods, and ethics. Social Media+ Society, 7(2), 20563051211019004.
@@RayAlexWilliams I'll take a look at that
Do you think what you do is anything near them tho? From your logic since r/lesbians is an nsfw subdreddit and its bigger than the sfw subreddits does that mean porn is a big reasonf for why people become lesbian in the first place?
@@RayAlexWilliams That is not enough extensive studies to claim absolute truth on a theory in the *social* sciences of Psychology, a field where we create labels not as true explanations of the nature of the mind (such as philosophy or mathematics or physics or neuroscience may seek) but rather for usefulness in helping patients. I’m not convinced AGP helps many people or can be claimed as truth with just these studies. It appears to be a theory used as a repressive agent against one’s own desires.
You know you've made it on YT when other channels start doing response videos {I know you did a response/critique video first}. Congratulations Ray your infamy is growing!
My friend is 68 and her husband suffers from this mental illness. He’s tormented and she has to deal with his temper tantrums and massive insecurities around it all. All the affirmation hasn’t lessened his suffering. He really needs real therapy by someone who understands the condition. The state of the medical profession is so subpar. I wonder if they will ever take responsibility for their dropping the ball on this issue? These are grown ups. I can’t imagine the kids and parents being gaslit. I’m team Elon. It’s a war.
Is AGP a mental illness?
What is he tormented with?
Is it his agp, or non conformity that is causing the distress, or is it the stigmatizing, insulting, belittling of him for it that causing that? It is my thinking A LOT of this is due directly to the stigmazation of femininity in males, and honestly it is really looking like in some females. The stigma being attached to the crossing of arbitrary gender lines, the shaming being much more directed at males.
Team Elon? Calm down with that noise honey 😂. Agree with everything else though. Nuance my dear.. nuance.
Maybe they used the wrong term and said "projection" when they meant you were applying what is known as "false consensus". I'm not saying who is right or wrong. just that false consensus doesn't require lack of self awareness, it means you don't understand others.
but isn't that the point of telling people your own understanding and experience so that others have the option to say hey this is me or not as the case may be in order to possibly gain greater insight..but in this case they don't even want to listen period.. it's just hands over the ears going la la la.
@@bepitanI don’t think he’s *just* saying it’s his own experience. He’s also laughing at them saying “you are AGP whether you like it or not”. Such an approach isn’t geared towards insight but rather absolutism and lack of compassion. As is the case with the origin of the theory. So, were it to gain traction, you can imagine the consequences it would entail based on its origin.
@@chrisfandrade16 .. i can see what laughter might look like to the person who does not understand but if you were to follow the logic of his argument then you would laugh too at some of the retorts thrown his way. The truth is the truth and it has no compassion.
@@bepitan Not only are you completely lacking compassion in a social science field regarding patients, you are stupendously arrogant to think you found "truth". Science does not purport ever finding "truth". It is to find approximations and continue an ever-lasting refininement of the approximation. Frankly, your lack of compassion and arrogance is disgusting. AGP is not "truth". It is a theory, and honestly moreso used as a weapon for personal and outwardly repression of acceptance, than any kind of "truth". Gosh, it's terrifying to see people so confident in their judgements on others. For the sake of your own long-term happiness, I implore you to socialize more with the rest of your fellow human beings in this world.
love this ray - I do think that some people are trans and AGP and it possible that some people have a deeper tie to their transness as an identity vs something they just do when aroused - the problem is trans people who are enttitled to opposite sex spaces because as a woman I dont care what you identify as, it is a human rights violation to put woman and intact males in the same prison cell
***to clarify I think anyone w gender dysphoria is happy to be seen as their preferred version of themselves, sometimes to a sexual degree and sometimes not
I don't feel entitled to use women's spaces. I avoid them, but also avoid male spaces, and gee, I wonder why that would be. 🤔
You also don't know what I think about the source of my gender dysphoria. I don't make claims about metaphysics and souls. I can say, "I don't know for sure, but," I think it is complicated. People are complicated. Take a look at Internal Family Systems or dissociative disorders, and see how those things can influence our sense of self. I didn't have any choice in the matter, is how I felt, from a young age. My story isn't typical to an AGP, which is why I dislike you or others forcing that onto me as if it is some truth. If you're going to accept trans people, then there isn't any reason to force this on us. I'm okay with AGP, and don't think it is necessarily a fetish, like you explain, but try not to label me or others who say, "Hey, that doesn't sound like my story at all," that way.
So given that Ray is intent on labeling others, one is entitled to wonder why. He claims in this video that he just wants to de-stigmatize people who identify as AGP. But his way of doing that seems to be to troll social media and to try and force that label on to people who don't identify that way. It would be akin to claiming that a same sex attracted person isn't in fact same sex attracted because they once had sex with a person of the opposite sex. If he just wanted to de-stigmatize AGP, he would talk about his own experience of it, his own challenges with it and his own experience of having it accepted as a legitimate sexuality by his partners. Actually, even if every non-HSTS woman agreed with Ray, how would that help de-stigmatize AGP? Wouldn't we still be left with the same societal stigma that exists now? So the claim that he just wants to de-stigmatize AGP is false, or at least his methods of doing it are. It seems to me, he wants to de-legitimize people's self-declared identity, akin to the 'your not really a lesbian because you slept with a man' trope, so as to boost the justification for his own.
Ray uses Blanchard's work, which would take people like you and assume you're lying. He's a lost cause to argue with
@@connor5669 Yeah, it's an unfalsifible theory that has a "gotcha" for no matter how you feel...truly humane for a *social* science theory. What is the use of this?
Truly, I’m not saying your experience doesn’t matter, but it’s not typical and that’s what we focus on. If anything, you’re the exception that proves the rule and you should carry yourself as such and not try to run from the stigmas of the group you claim to be apart of.
Very illuminating. Thanks for posting! You have a unique and valuable perspective.
on the note of critiquing GC people and their representations of AGPs as all fetishy and as all perverts and whatnot... I dont completely disagree because there is a certain flavour that gets pushed to the forefront of a lot of GC content (the kind that tends to overlap with conservative/RW commentary, i've tended to find) that's just plain cruel, but I also would say thats coming from a place of like.... even if you're a "normal" AGP, it's still something that I think makes women uncomfortable to be aware of even in everyday? It still started erotic, as you said... and that is just gonna be baseline offensive to females, regardless of its "source" or if it "fades away". As so many TRAs deny its existence and normalize basically .... wearing their fetish in day-to-day society, I'm sorry but we have to REALLY draw attention to the fact that it does manifest as a fetish. That this is an offensive way to view females (or its just the reality that we're going to take it that way). We can accept that it's reality for some men, especially with the state of the Internet as it is in ushering certain mindsets along, but that doesn't mean we have to just be complacent if they're going to be unwilling to have the conversations YOU seem to be willing to have (I do also need to give credit where it's due: your channel and everything you're putting out here takes serious guts and I'm personally so grateful that this conversation is getting started).
I'm very much of the opinion that yes, anyone can have whatever "fetish/kink" they want (within reason with consenting adults), but I (and anyone else interacting in day to day) shouldn't have to know about it. If I know about it? Guess what, it's open to critique and judgement. And these guys are literally wearing it as a costume so...yeah, idk. What's our response as women supposed to be?
I think it's okay for AAPs to wear male-typical clothing, so I don't see an issue with AGPs wearing female-typical clothing
@@phililly it's already pretty normalized for females to wear male-typical clothing, also unsure AAP is a thing
Ray drops another BOOM! :D
You're right but I do not think there is any particular way in which you can explain to the public that something which has a paraphilia at its root should be normatively accepted. Expressing your deepest authentic self sounds lot more appealing to people than conforming to an in essence paraphilic desire.
You are right in saying that Ray's points will never appeal to the general population or most trans people, he will also probably only ever convince a small amount of trans people since these ideas challenge a trans person's entire identity. However I do not believe that every trans person's desire to transition comes from paraphilia, if it did they would detransition due to disatisfaction(as they would never have had an actual desire to be the another gender) however only about 1% of people detransition so there must be people who feel more comfortable in their new body and are not doing it just for a fetish. Furthermore the idea that 80 million people(aprox global trans population) all share this very niche fetish is absurd. But even if a small minority of trans people transitioned due to paraphilia, why make trans people face that chance? Why make them question if their identity is based off a fetish? If they're happy, whats the problem with living in ignorance? A lot of our desire and joy comes from dark places. Fetishes are inately joy coming from a dark place. But no wants to psychoanalyze themselves and question every source of joy in their life. Why are we forcing trans people to question their joy on the offchance that it may come from a bad place(even though there are many other common joys that come from much darker places)?
If you are an Autogynephile it's with you from childhood, the perverted side of it appears when one watches porn, it creates a twisted view of what a woman's sexuality is like, and AGPs try to represent that. As a teenager I would wanna dress like how girls looked like in pop music magazines, only turned more into a sexual fetish once I started watching BDSM. Was never really about heels, knee highs and leather before that. Old school transvestites used to dress like grannies, with perms and blouses. Modern day AGPs just wanna look like pick me girls.
Old school transvestites dressed like grannies? What era are you talking about?
And 'perverted side'? Enough with the loaded rhetoric, please.
But what woman sexually is? What does it look like?
@@andrenikolsky well that's the point, only a woman will know what that feels like. AGPs just think they know what it feels like based on porn or what they see on the internet.
@@RussBlake80Surely no one knows what anything feels like.for anyone else?
@@someonesomeone25 exactly my point
Of course, this experience goes beyond kink or fetish. My first experience of mocking a movie male character dates back to age 4 or 5. I clearly remember LIKING him first, and then, in some strange and unexplainable burst of envy, portraining the character in front of bedroom mirror. What sexual drive can a girl of 5 have?! I am a very feminine woman, enjoy wearing dresses, etc. But...I adore visiting man departments in clothes shops and malls. It is pleasurable, although I dont understand why....I would never wear that, just find it very attractive. Have never experienced gender disphorya, still very well feel ( like Phill Illy describing his experience) what gender euphoria is
It's a myth that our sexual orientation only begins to manifest in behavior upon the start of puberty. For example, little boys who grow up to heterosexual men might develop emotional, non-sexual "crushes" on girls pre-puberty. That is a manifestation of the underlying sexual orientation even if it's not explicitly sexual or erotic in nature. Autoheterosexuality is the same thing. And no, the theory doesn't say the root is "fetishistic kink." The root is a predisposing factor of inverted heterosexual orientation, which may or may not eventually develop into explicitly fetishistic behavior.
@@RayAlexWilliamsthere's no actual straight man would want to be feminine or feel or want to be a woman, this is all the result of corn addiction and s*x addiction and g*y men wanting to feel or want to be the woman in front of people in a g*y relationship but to be seen as a hetero couple because fem g*y men feel ashamed of being the fem in the relationship esp when they wanna be introduced to a the partner's family and friends so they used the trans ideology as a loophole, a coping mechanism , u yourself admitted to being bisexual by saying that you're attracted to femboys lol so no you're not straight so Basically it's not straight men who r transitioning it's g*y and bi men like u who do it or did it not to mention that autism is very common with trans people
I have been thinking of a new classification format for homosexuals. There are two types of homosexuality: one is feminine gays and the other is masculine gays. Feminine gays are a byproduct of AGP, and masculine gays are a byproduct of something else (e.g hormonal/natural/utero exposure, genes, chemicals).
Interesting hypothesis.
They've done fraternal birth order studies. They're worth a read.
Into what classifications would you divide heterosexuals, bisexuals, and asexuals?
Homosexuality is by definition at odds with AGP... makes no sense
There are likely multiple etiologies of male homosexuality. Blanchard's fraternal birth order effect studies have shown that feminine gay men typically have more older brothers than masculine gay men, which suggests that the cause of homosexuality in feminine gay males more often originates in whatever causes the FBOE than does homosexuality in masculine gay males.
Autogynephilia is also likely the etiology of some male homosexuality. Blanchard wrote:
-"Bisexual gender dysphorics represent those cases in which the autogynephilic disorder gives rise to some secondary erotic interest in males that coexists with the individual's basic attraction to females."
- "Analloerotic gender dysphorics represent those cases in which the autogynephilic disorder nullifies or overshadows any erotic attraction to women; those cases, in Hirschfeld's metaphor, in which "the woman within" completely supplants her fleshly rivals."
Combining these two theoretical propositions, it follows that some AGPs will lack interest in women and also have interest in men, which means that some will have homosexual preferences.
The whole concept is fascinating. Im not trans or adp or whatever but i imagine if i met a real woman that looked very much like me it would be really off-putting. I wonder if it would be different if i was better looking 😅
I imagine being good looking really helps. It's hard to imagine ugly people find themselves attractive as any gender.
@@someonesomeone25 I'm pretty average for a man, in my youth maybe even a little above average, but features that really don't scream feminine 🤷♂️
What tests could I do on myself to see if Im AGP or not?
What questions/criteria would I have to meet to be confident I am AGP, HSTS, or neither?
Have you ever felt gender euphoria and what it felt like?
@@naaras What does gender euphoria feel like? What is it?
Like other psychological criteria, it isn't really a matter of filling out a checklist of questions/symptoms. It's a matter of "clinical presentation" -- do you overall fill the "pattern" of AGP or not? By looking at other "cases" you can learn to spot the pattern. That's how a lot of professional diagnosis of things works.
@rogerfinney2811 So what would be the overall pattern of AGP and HSTS and other so that I can check to see if I match?
If you are MTF, then you are AGP if you are gynephilic, bisexual, or analloerotic.
Another way of figuring out if you're AGP is if you answer affirmatively to this question:
Have you ever become aroused from wearing women's clothes or from imagining yourself as a woman?
Sorry but I think the AAP claim needs a study behind it before we can consider it anything other than speculation.
Males and females have very different sexual impulses and even if AAP were a thing it would likely be a tiny minority exacerbated by modern access to p.
Very very different to AGP
It is quite different to AGP. At its core, AAP and AGP are filtered through male and female se xuality. I’m less skeptical after watching some of Phil Illy’s interviews with self-described AAPs. I think if a woman cannot climax without imagining she has a pe nis, that is a good indication of AAP. However, female sexuality doesn’t have the intense, consuming, urgent nature of male se xuality, which makes it feel unlike a typical para philia.
@@StormBringer5men and women have different brains, if sexually don't match with the body, it's a sign that you are transgender.
Please show us your legit studies that prove "inverted heterosexuality".
Read Phil Illy’s book Autoheterosexual for an overview of the reference literature.
@RayAlexWilliams What is an inverted orientation and how does an inverted orientation differ from a fetish or paraphillia?
@@someonesomeone25read Phil Illy’s book, like he said, instead of spamming this channel with same questions over and over.
@@StormBringer5Why can't people answer my simple questions in ways that don't raise issues?
Seems suspect that I get a huge variety of differing, even contradictiory, answers to the same questions from people who have all read the same material and that their responses are often vague or have flaws.
It's also suspect that Im so often told to play hunt go fetch rather than be given an answer, or told to stop asking questions.
@@someonesomeone25 inverted orientations are directed inward toward the self. They are atypical sexual attractions and therefore fall under the broad heading of "paraphilia", but its perhaps most accurate to describe them as paraphilic sexual orientations.
I saw you on Phil Illi and I also thought you seemed to project some.
Sure AGP is real, but not everyone has it.
I don't.
If you want to try to convince me I will keep and open mind and let you try.
I made some videos talking about my transition and reasons.
Maybe it's just agp and none of the stuff in my videos matters? Hmm
I am one of your GC , although I prefer to call myself Sex Realist fans. I appreciate your endeavors to de-stigmatize AGP & bring it out of the shadows. Let's just be REAL.
It is a slippery slope, to tred, because on the one hand - honoring one's own innate experience of femininity as a man should be celebrated and honored, as one should celebrate one's innate experience of masculinity as a woman. But because the Judeo-Christian so enforces this extreme binary of roles and historically has shamed and demonized any gender non-conforming person - there is a sense of taboo around this exploration. And this taboo ends up mutating into AGP and AAP. I am wondering if it would - if that identity were fully integrated into our life and personality in our own unique way?
I personally have always between attracted to metrosexuals - and men who freely express the "feminine" aspects of their personalities in a non-stigmatizing way. I think of men like Prince, or Gay men ( I have had intimate relationships with men who had never had hetero or were clearly had homosexual preferences or attractions). I have had AAP fantasies at times, but never wanted to reject my body or co-opt manhood.
I think what troubles me the most is the pornified fantasies of femininity of many AGP whether they are Trans or not. The conflation of male fantasy of women as objects of degradation, submission, humiliation bleeds out into rape culture, sexual abuse and psychological manipulation of women and girls, and historically caused and continues to cause great harm.
This extreme expression of AGP is I believe NOT just AGP itself but comorbid with other paraphilias like sexual sadism, pedophilia, voyeurism and exhibitionism, which I do not believe should EVER BE NORMALIZED in the greater social world. Whether it has a place in kink clubs - is another subject.
But once a person Transitions - they are entering a sphere where they are more likely to start controlling the narrative as the opposite sex they are cosplaying as. And this is HIGHLY problematic for women and girls who are JUST Embodying their OWN feminine power and integrating it with our experience of masculine power/identity. We are tired of having men continually map their fantasies of what feminine over us - and denying us OUR RIGHT to tell our own stories and take up space in the world as women in bodies whose bodies whose biological and social needs have been ignored, belittled, and attacked.
So it is really difficult for women who are being attacked for wanting their OWN private spaces and to maintain control of the experience and narration of what womanhood/girlhood is to be calm and measured about AGP.
Basically Male sexual fantasies of the feminine reified in TWs have received MORE political clout than TRUE women's and girl's rights : abortion rights, birth control, family leave, childcare, intetnational rights of girls to education etc. This is what is absolutely enraging. How many billions of dollars have been wasted on celebrating regressive sexual fantasies of femininity through the male gaze - while women and girls are subjugated to poverty and ignorance the world over? It is truly an insult. The entitlement of men to center their whole lives around their sexual pleasure to the detriment of everything else is just infuriating. Enough already! And yes, I believe our behaviors are extensions of our biology - but that is where the brain comes in - sexual energy and impulse can also be channeled into non-destructive avenues like creative arts like art, sport, entrepreneurship, community building, etc - JUST focusing on gender and sex - is the least one can do with one's vital life-giving energy. For God sakes these people desperately need to pursue hobbies and holistic help integrating their masculinity and femininity into a healthy /happy and socially harmonious identity.
Fantastic comment. Thank you.
Still here to say I'm MtF and I'm not an AGP
Keep coping bra
@@PercyTinglish coping what? I don't copy anyone
@@Penelope-hg4dz "I don't understand words so _you're_ wrong!"
Sure thing bra 🤣
@@PercyTinglish are you drunk?
@@Penelope-hg4dz coping =/= copying
Are you?
I did message you on x good sir and shockingly so like ive said before i actually like finn mostly he was kinda bringing femboys back but then he got with Ashley and started transitioning
I think most of their people are not correctly interpreting what youre trying to say which may be an interpretation of your tone but its really just trying to help our brothers and sisters be aware so to speak of what really starts this Domino effect they think it applies to them not realizing it's only the weirdo's that have just agp and typically dont transition well that is a main tell agp evolves into full dysphoria i believe or a precursor so to speak
Im only speaking from my perspective as i was trying to force things to work w a sex i wasnt attracted to enough at all for decades agp typically still prefer women or at least carry a 50/50 to where the most severe cases of dysphoria and most successful transitions are of people that stuck to the hetero norm of what they were transitioning to
Main difference between "transgender" and transsexual imo
More pipebombs i love it kinda sucks you have to explain what you really mean tho 😅😅
I don’t see any new message requests on X…🤔
@@RayAlexWilliams that's very odd I just sent another to see if they pop up at all
Gender can't be changed, if AGP becomes transgender that's - she was transgender.
AGP is not real, it's a thing that someone gets when she starts to suppress her gender.
8:30 😂😂😂
What came first, the chicken or the egg…HELLO IT’S THE ROOSTER.
The cock came first
Neither, eggs or chickens don't appear just like that. For life to evolve it has to go through, formation of simple organic molecules from inorganic precursors. ---> Assembly of these molecules into more complex structures, such as proteins and nucleic acids. ---> Development of self-replicating molecules, likely RNA or similar precursors. ---> Formation of primitive cell-like structures (protocells) that could contain and protect these molecules. ---> Evolution of metabolic processes to maintain and reproduce these early life forms, and now you have to wait for long ass time for boring life form to evolve to a chicken (millions of years)
The chicken or the egg joke annoys me, how can it possibly be funny?
Wait wait wait!!!! Arent they type 1 anyway? Are they just young gay men wit extra steps?
conveniently ignoring the existence and seriousness of gender dysphoria.
Aren't there other paraphilias associated with AGP? I can't remember the study....Bailey or Blanchard...like urine, kids etc
Really? Would like clarification on that.
The number 1 paraphilia that correlates with AGP is masochism, so basically they like to be the "sub" in the bedroom.
@@someonesomeone25 if you bothered to read the studies, you would know. Proof you have no idea what you're talking about.
@@ellisdunegan I haven't read the studies, no. I don't know much about it at all. That's why I ask questions.
@spiralvoid45 vanilla AGP i like it. at least i'm free from furry, bdsm, weeb and pdf
Yes and sex belongs IN PRIVATE!!!!
Public sexual indecency is already illegal.
11:21 BIGASS LIE. link a study that proves this. dont just type it out, make it clickable
One hundred fortieth
Ray, if you want the theories you talk about and your opinions to be considered by the trans community and the world with an open mind, then you should make it very clear that you are not questioning the existence of trans people(by calling transitioning a fetish or through any other means). Instead you are just trying to create awareness on AGP. You must agree that some of the theories you talk about imply that transitioning is just a fetish, this idea goes against the identity of trans people and can be used to argue against their rights. Because this idea is so dangerous to trans people, they will understandbly never look at your opinions with an open mind. Maybe making your intentions clear at the start of your videos would help people have an open mind. Furthermore, a siginificant portion of community is completely and utterly transphobic. They make you seem transphobic as well. It may be a good idea to openly disagree with any clearly transphobic comments on your videos.
I hope this isn't a stupid question. Are there homosexual men who are autogynephiles?
Technically under Blanchards theory all men can be autogynephiles. The criteria is not very high, but in the core test gay men generally scored lower than straight men and bi-sexuals scored higher. Age may also be a factor but was not tested.
No. Though some AGPs "appear" to be gay men insofar as they might exclusively data men, but that stems from "pseudo-bisexuality." See this video:
ruclips.net/video/43PjBIERBzU/видео.htmlsi=DRMaBDicbt8On79w
yes many "gay" men are meta-attracted agp. especially if they are "bottom". it's similar to "sissification"
@@RayAlexWilliams there are HSTS who also fall under AGP criteria.
Yes, there is some overlap between those. However, the case might be that there are two types of h***se*uality. One is caused by AGP, and the other is natural "real androphilia"
Dylan Mulvaney Agp?
Dylan seems to me to have been a gay man who transitioned for social utility.
@RayAlexWilliams So is that HSTS or something else?
I’d say he’s a highly effeminate fame-chasing gay man who both got caught up in trans ideology and saw it as an opportunity to become more famous.
@@HonestHans4So is that HSTS?
@@someonesomeone25 yes
You got the attention you so desire from transwomen. That was the whole point! You can't be one credibly so you'll bring them down and they'll come attack you. How do you beat to that?
this is a special kind of stupid lolol
I was always taught , when public speaking , that you don’t gesticulate.
I was taught the opposite.
@@RayAlexWilliams of course you was !😂
I was a natural, enthusiastic gesticulator as a kid/teenager and then a teacher got on me about it. Then I went to Italy for a few years and it was great being amongst people who gesticulate-who allow themselves to feel/express passionately with their face and body. IMO it’s healthy ~ it’s a way to connect mind/body/emotions. What matters is good nature 💜and truthfulness. (I mean, the man with the mustache gesticulated too but it communicated horror.)
Gesticulation is a way to add visual metaphors to add context and emotion to emphasize your points. It helps people understand you better and makes for better storytelling.
@@RayAlexWilliams only in America.
Hi Ray
Thanks for all the effort to create educational and informative content.
As a ( very boring 😉) heterosexual woman, I have been learning a great deal here.
Would be good to interview an Autoandrophile female here too. Keen to hear from that side of the spectrum as well.
Have a great weekend Xx
6:34 😂😂😂
13:32 😂😂😂