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I think what dewalt is saying is its cheaper to use the same motor and have it run at its max speed than it is to use a different motor or include circuitry to slow the sander.
Before I subscribed I thought I had a basic knowledge of wood working. However, after each one of your videos I walk away very humble. You teach without putting us down. A very rare attribute among teachers. I cannot thank you enough!
Now I know why my sanding time never really changed. I would turn up the sander and make my passes faster, but it was never really any faster than when I turned it up and made normal passed. This channel and few other showed me the errors of my ways. I take my time and use better paper. It’s actually saving me money.
I use lower speeds on my sanding machines for old paint layers or other materials that tend to “melt” with the heat of sanding and clog up the sandpaper. Sometimes I lower the speed to have more control on small ridges or near glass windows.
Tbh I don't think I've ever used my sander at it's highest speed, and more often than not I end up with marks. This explanation never crossed my mind at all, and it makes perfect sense. Many time I've oversanded a piece trying to get rid of the squiggly marks. Thank you!
While this is true that if you go 50% the speed you double to sanding, what he said was going 50% slower which is meaningless without a comparison. Regardless I think we all understood his intent. Go slower and you sand more per inch.
I'm a crazy person that enjoys sanding.... I used to hate it but then just learned that there's no other spot on any job that I don't need to think. And when you stop thinking completely I learned that is meditation and meditation has incredible power
Awesome!! I've been binge-watching your videos since yesterday, and today I am heading out to my shop to begin my project for my wife's Christmas gift! I am fully confident that from the videos I watched yesterday and this morning, my project will be MUCH better as a result! I never tire of sitting down with a cup of my favorite coffee and watching your videos for hours. I wish I could actually spend some real time with you to learn more, but for now, I'll have to settle for YT. Thank you so very much!
Another gem. Paired with the general sanding video this is an absolute must-watch for all beginning wood workers and DIYrs. Just an outstanding contribution to the RUclips community.
Your instruction is ALWAYS valuable and welcome. And the discussions you incite are worth a dozen online “shop classes.” Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. THIS is what good teaching/education looks like!
Thank you!! You made me realize that most videos I watch fast-forward through the sanding. So of course I intuitively ended up sanding too quickly as well. It never occurred to me to slow down!!
I have to admit, I'm one that always dialed in around the 4 because I figured middle was good all around for most sanding tasks. Thanks for the video. Sander going to 6 today and staying there from now on.
Hey James, interesting video. I have a single-speed random orbit sander and I've never felt I needed it to go slower. I just wanted to point out that moving the sander at 50% less speed actually doubles the time it spends on each spot, not 50% longer. The rule is Change in Time (over each spot) = 1/Change in Speed, so if you want to spend 50% longer on each spot (3/2) you need to move one-third slower (2/3) .
Thanks James! The variable speed crapped out on my sander, leaving it struck at top speed. I thought this was disastrous, then used it as I was on site. I've never felt the need to replace it since.
Only on your videos will I admit that I am 44, with no career skills. My goal is to move back out to where my future wife, and my child are at, and enroll into a trade school. I don't know that woodworking is what I will go into, but I am endlessly fascinated by handy work. I find your videos to be valuable beyond measure. I hope I will figure out what will make enough money to support my family in the way they deserve, but until then, I'll be watching your videos and learning more and more.
Thank you for a well informed video. It is irritating to see so many videos out there giving bad advice on sanding. Yes, pigtails are simply the visible pattern of your sander. They are there no matter how you sand. If you sand to a high grit level then the pigtails are so fine you just aren't noticing them - but they are there - it is the sander's pattern. Badly visibly pigtails can be caused (as stated) debris under the pad (including corning from a finish or resin) or moving too fast (stretching your sander's pattern out - whatever the speed, moving to fast for that speed)... and bad sandpaper. Cheap paper will not have the same quality control as better paper and so you may have larger grits contaminating the mix. In any case (something not mentioned), why are people not sanding by hand for the final pass (unless you have a nifty inline sander)? We always finish with a hand sanding (we are only sanding to 180 or 220 normally). My routine will usually be to power sand to one grit higher than I want (so say 220). I will then drop back to 180 grit to do a quick hand sanding. This reduces the amount of time required to hand sand as you are not having to sand out the deeper marks of the previous sanding - you are sanding deeper marks... and removes ALL pigtails. For those who do not hand sand - I recommend doing a test board in your usual routine, and then do another board as described with a hand sanding to finish. Apply a stain (yes professionals are using stain ALL the time - another youtuber attempted to claim we don't), let dry, and topcoat. I suspect you will see a clearer more pleasing result in the hand sanded test board. I leave the sander at a highest speed unless I'm using a beast to shape wood and then I might bring it down to make it more controlled. I will turn it down when doing a wet sanding on finishes, reduces heat and so reduces corning... also do not want it to aggressive as I do not want to sand too fast and cut through.
I love your videos. I don't even own any woodworking tools. The only experience I have with woodworking is in high school I built a dry sink. I do hope to have a workshop someday, and your videos have taught me so much. Thanks for the great content!
Good move, Keith. I hope it comes together for you. I enjoyed woodwork classes at school, then went and did other things. Now I'm retired I'm slowly assembling a workshop (one wall and a door to go). These are some of the most informative and motivating clips around. Once I have a workshop to practice in, I'll do some formal classes as well.
I am old enough to have worked with old cast aluminum encased, single speed, corded tools with finger-gym «clack» switches, and painted in the fanciest of colors. I still have the old full metal B&D drill of my dad - also single speed
And here I thought I was the only one old enough to remember and have a single speed tool. My original hangs on the wall as a momentous momentum to my youthful ways and how far technology has taken me and to remind me of the things I have forgotten. I have some hand tools that are so old they still say American Made.
One thing I have found using an RO sander to sand small items like box lids. This can cause the edges to sand faster leading to domed lids. The outer edge of the disk moves faster than the middle. For every revolution the outer edge has further to travel to complete a single rotation. This can give some interesting features to a project
in cabinet industry speed settings are used in finish sanding. while some things are done by hand, as you suggested, large flat surfaces are done with ro. the speed settings are important because production finishes can be rushed and by changing the speed you are not just changing the rpm of the machine, you are changing the velocity of the orbit as well. velocity and friction are proportional at low speeds. less gumming of finishes that are not fully tacked or high in pigment content. it really is an important feature for working quickly in production finishing. even pneumatic ro sanders are variable speed.
I bought a Bosch ROS20VSC recently. I just opened the box this weekend, put on some 80grit, and spotted the variable speed wheel. Then I did something rarely done by most, I opened the manual and there it was "for most sanding jobs leave the speed on the highest setting and only hold the sander, do not press it down onto the work surface with force". I joke but this is a necessary video for those that might have been using it for years or bought a used tool etc.
I find that I'm generally holding the hose up rather than pushing the sander down. Just trying to keep the air hose from tipping the sander. Haven't had issues so far beyond the fact that sanding sucks no matter the technique.
@@Beakerbite I just used mine with the included filter canister, no hose, and I had to check to see if the sander was sanding because I couldn’t see any dust on the work piece or around it. It works great.
It also should be noted that on regular, common sanders, the higher the speed, the easier they are to control because of the increased stability. Due to the mechanism of the random rotation, lower speeds can cause the sander to jerk around and be very difficult to control.
This is so true. First time I tried a Rotex sander, I thought it was crap because it was so hard to control and I was fighting it the whole way. Turned out it was just on the lowest speed setting.
Hi everyone! If you are having troubles with a RO-sander jerking, here are a few things that can also be the problem besides speed settings: The sole isn't flat, The material has bumps in it, Or the sole isn't perpendicular to the material. Some machines have a bad balance. Check out Stubby's video on random orbit sanders, he is better at explaining than I am.
What an absolutely fantastic and informative video. I didn't even know my orbital sander had a variable speed and how to even use it properly, but now I do.Great job!
It acn be noted that one reason not mentioned for a slow sander would be if you are using it for stripping paint. Slower orbital speeds means less heat which means more efficient cutting and less smearing/melting when removing an old finish.
Whoa, you're right! That little dial changes the speed of the sander! But now that I found it, I'm gonna let it at 6. A bit more seriously, thanks lots for taking the time to explain the details. I really dislike sanding (_really_ dislike the dust, which I can never seem to control). This video has taught me just what I need to know so I can sand and get the best results in the least time. Thanks!!!
I had no idea what pigtails were and what caused them, what I did know was I had those scratch patterns in some of my projects. Invaluable lesson for me right here!
are you going thru the papers too quick? i.e. missing grits. i do a lot of work starting with rough timber and start at 40 on some stuff. then 60, 80, 120, 180, 220 maybe. if you miss one out you end up with more marks.
This is the level of detail and explanations that I like and that few (if any) other channels do. I think though the actual reason for the non variable DW sander is at full speed is because both variants uses the same motor, and the speed selector is just a variable resistor. Put the speed selector on the highest number and there is no extra resistance on the circuit and it gets the same full speed as the other version. Put the speed selector on a lower number and it increases the resistance slowing the motor down. Same as the volume nob on a stereo amplifier. So there is probably less though put into what a good speed is and more about economies of scale ;)
I've made a few wooden boats and paddleboards and during the process I'll need to sand epoxied surfaces. Just controlling the speed of movement is going to be a disaster. Sanding creates heat in the workpiece and if that workpiece is an epoxied surface the heat is going to start melting the epoxy which is not good. It'll also clog up sanding discs as well. Controlling the speed on the sander - I use the slowest speed - is an absolute must do. Oh, and Mirka Abranet sanding discs are the dogs doo dahs! This comment is not sponsored by Mirka :-))
I have been refurbishing an old house lately, cleaning off the old exterior boards and repainting. They are New Zealand Rimu, which is about 120 years old, very dry, and very hard. I melt and scrape off the old paint, then sand to clean it. I found, by trial and error, that when using 40 grit disks, I needed to run the sander at its very lowest speed as even the best quality disks disintegrated at higher speeds - the backing hook-and-loop fabric parted from the sanding paper. This also meant a lot of cleaning of the hook-and-loop surface of the sander pad each time this happened. I guess the coarse grit and hard wood cause a lot of tension between the layers on the disk. Running at the slowest speed prevented this and also stopped clogging of the disk from remnants of paint and cleaned the wood quicker than using a higher speed, so the very lowest speed setting can be useful..
Great info as always! This is type of info for understanding something vs just knowing how to do something. Not just this video but pretty much all of them. Thank you!
Great video I saw you're others on sanding and whenever I see other RUclipsrs moving back and forth like they're in a curling match I think of your videos and laugh.
The way you explain things is so easy to understand. I myself am not really much of a sanding guy. I would rather take a plane or scraper to smoothen my freshly machined wood, but sometimes sanding is unavoidable. I always wondered why you would slow down the sanding machine, now I know 👍
I often use the lowest speed when I'm rounding of corners, since I'm to lazy to set up my router. It gives you a lot more control when removing the corner.
25 years in the automotive refinish business. The only machine sanding is done on body work, and maybe prep work. Any sanding of base is by hand, as well as cured clear coat before buffing (although I do like a finishing DA for large sanding/buffing jobs).
I've had my Dewalt RO sander for many years, never had one with a dial because why would you ever need that feature.. (It's all about adding a price point to the tool) Learn to control your speed, and you will get good results.. Also helps to work your way through the grits properly.
Not entirely related but these Bosch sanders are incredible sanders for working on boats with fairing compound, epoxy resins, and fiberglass. I like pairing them with Abranet mesh pads.
As a new woodworker years ago, I purchased a random orbit sander, as I heard it was an essential tool to have in a wood shop. Alas, I was not aware of the variable speed function and purchased one without it. This is the only tool out of dozens that I've bought since, I regret purchasing.
Don't regret your purchase. Instead...get comfortable and proficient with it. When you do...think about how much more skill you will have when it comes time to buy a new, variable-speed sander! As I spoke above, I only use the single speed tools. Just makes things easier for me. To each their own, right? No random-orbit sander, in and of itself, is really bad. Many problems and difficulties are on the operator...as sorry as I am to say that. Just grab a piece of wood, a pencil and a cold one and start sanding. You'll soon get the feel for the tool, and will learn how to get the most out of it.
Naveen...we all learn to adapt to the conditions we have at hand. Mirka? That would be nice, wouldn't it? But...in MY real world...not gonna happen. So, I use what I have. I can adapt. I get very acceptable results from the sanders I use...to the extent that my customers rave about the finish...and in the end...isn't that what we want?
Thanks James for the deep dive on this topic. I like my Dewalt corded sander & always keep it set at 6. I also find that the two-handed sanding method is the most comfortable with this sander: one hand on the “neck” of the sander (not on the top), and the other hand on the dust extractor hose. I do wish that Dewalt would change the location of the variable speed dial. I find that I frequently, inadvertently, move the variable speed dial. Would I enjoy sanding more if I had “Team Green’s” ETS EC 125 or 150? Sure. Gotta sell a lot more workbenches to afford one.
Interesting & informative video. When discussing sanders with variable speed controls you seem to have assumed that everyone just uses these type of sanders on relatively long pieces of unfinished wood. When sanding off some fillers, materials & sanding over old painted surfaces high orbit speeds tend to melt what is being sanded which clogs up the sanding disk. Physically moving the sander faster across a piece of material isn't always a realist option to control the number of orbits taking place in a given area. With the technology available today the user / consumer should be able to choose the OPM, with a speed control, that is best suited for their particular material or task. Not everyone has a wall full of specialty tools available to do a particular job better than a standard RO sander. I wish this message would get to the manufacturers. I'd bet the real reason that so many manufactures stopped building RO sanders without a speed control function is because it was easier & cheaper to make & not because some pseudo-scientific research on what speed the "average" consumer uses or needs to use.
In addition.. if you hand rotate counterclockwise at 12,000 rpm your random orbital sander becomes a block sander. This saves much needed space in my shop. 🙂
I cheaped out and got the single speed Dewalt. In the super rare times I want less speed, I just press super light on it, or switch to a finer paper. No regrets.
Great job explaining a topic I thought everyone already understood. Always full speed, just enough grip so it doesn't get away. I travel a touch faster though.
For the most part, I've used air-powered sanders, which are a lot more aggressive than the electric models. After 35 years, I could count on both hands the number of times I've used a sander at any other setting other than high. And that was only on very delicate material.
As I think you hinted, there is also the type of wood to consider. I guess the most important thing Robson pay attention to the result you are achieving. Adjust feed rate as appropriate. Thanks for the thought provoking presentation.
I've worked orbital sanders out of my work flow almost entirely. I usually use bench planes clean up my saw marks which was what I was using the orbital sander for mostly in the first place. They do a better job and they do it faster providing the blade is sharp. I'm not entirely convinced, even, that powered finish sanding is any faster or more effective than hand sanding by someone who knows what their doing. The only time I use one is when I'm sanding decking plugs, but I'd probably be better off with a small belt sander TBH. The primary problem with an orbital sander is that it will always cut across the grain half the time and it will never look as good as wood sanded with the grain.
I agree with pretty much everything in that video. Personally, though, I wouldn’t use coarse sand paper on veneer. If a pressure mark is visible, I’d steam it first. Never lower than 180 grit on thin veneers.
Yeah I'm surprised he didn't go that direction... If you want to sand slower, use finer paper. Simple common sense right? I've never had or used a variable speed orbital. Never felt the need either.
I have a 6" polisher/sander that seems to give a great result on larger surfaces, I always tend to keep the speed setting high. I'm not sure if the "through" is larger than normal being a polisher but it seems to work great. I have an 6" Air RO sander that can also double as a polisher, seems great at both but consumes lots of air but is much nicer to use.
I started drawing pencil lines on my work piece before sanding and its helped my sanding a lot. According to my pencil lines I was sanding way to slow. I keep my sander on high and I move by my pencil lines. Only thing having my sander on high I just rounded over a corner I was sanding by slowing down and having 80 grit on.
We used chalk in the wood shop. We would take the flat long side of the chalk and rubbed it over the wood. It highlights all scratches and smaller uneven places.
I have a sander that broke. I found that the speed control was what was broken. I by-passed it, so now my sander has only one speed. That was many years ago, and it still works!
I've been using ROS for 30+ years now. My first was teal. I spent a couple hours learning the tool and the difference between it and the quarter-sheet sander I was currently using. Thought a lot about the speed of my own movements and how much I "sat" on the sander. Did the 'pencil' trick multiple times to judge how rapidly material was removed. Got a reasonable muscle memory going on, and because of that, I use single-speed Random Orbit Sanders exclusively. I currently have two in my shop. One is teal, the other is neon green. Each has it's place and time. Teal is more for finish work on fine projects of solid and ply wood. Greenie gets abused...smoothing rough-sawn material, older reclaimed woods that may have embedded dirt, grit and gravel, and...wait for it...finishing off polishing old woodworking tools that have cast-iron tops. I use 100, 150, and 220 grits for 98% of my sanding apps. A minor step away from the 80-120-180-220 school of thought which allows my to skip a step in hardwood sanding, and two in softwoods. Rarely do I need to use 60-80 grit, and if I need a finish finer than 220, I'll break out the sheet stock and sand by hand. There's about a $10 difference between single-speed and variable-speed Sanders within a given brand. I buy a new RO sander about every 2-3 years. I take that savings and buy a $10pak of 60 grit which lasts 2-3 years...lol. I go thru about 3 boxes of 100...a box of 150...and a half of a box of 220 in that same time. ....thinking maybe Bosch for the next one
I use my sander with 400 grit mesh to level my mohawk nitro lacquer on guitars. I have a craftsman, that's 12k i believe, it's up there with the dewalt but didn't have the dial. I think slowing down for using 400grit and higher grits could be beneficial for sanding lacquer on edges or sides of certain work pieces, as far as instruments are concerned.
I started out using my first orbital sander at top speed, pretty much for the reasons offered in this video. I wanted aggressive sanding over large surfaces. To my surprise, I found that the fastest cutting effect was at about 3/4 of the range. I don't know why for sure, but I had a sensation at full speed that the sander was almost floating on the workpiece, producing very fine sawdust rather than biting into the material. This was particularly evident on softwoods such as cedar and pine. Now I'm wondering if I formed a false impression somehow. I should go back and run some more tests using a micrometer and stopwatch so that I'm not relying on subjective impressions.
I know it's not a sander and doesn't seem even close... BUT it's probably relevant here. About a decade ago, I ended up with a chain-saw. It had the smallest tooth-set on the market, but someone had tinkered with it to over-rev' the engine... and it was funny, which was more why I bothered with it than anything... I knew that kind of arrangement would shorten the saw life. BUT... I sharpened the chain (something I'm quite used to on all chains, even the antiques with ENORMOUS teeth in comparison)... AND with a fresh tank of gas, I laid the cutting edge into a relatively ordinary length of poplar that had been laying in the yard for about a week... It shredded the bark fine enough... but then the teeth basically skipped uselessly over the wood at full throttle (the usual method for using a 2-cycle chainsaw... just squeeze and go)... Even engaging with the dogs and adding leverage didn't seem to fight the "speed-skip"... until I'd deliberately feathered OFF the throttle trigger, and running less than 3/4 full or so, where the chain near-instantly caught and dove right into the wood like a hot knife through butter... SO just before you dismiss your impressions... It IS possible that if your sander feels like it's "just floating" due to speed... It's possible you've just found a harmonic or whatever by which, basically, that's exactly what it was doing... floating or bouncing just about uselessly over the work instead of engaging and cutting into it. ;o)
I had the same impressions. It brings to mind an episode of Myth Busters where they tested if a car driving fast enough over rumble strips would feel the rumble less than someone going slower. In the end they found that if you go fast enough that you just go from one bump to the next without really hitting the low spots and getting the bump. I wonder if the same principle applies to sanding.
I think you could very well be right. A bit like aquaplaning of a tyre. OR take a motorcyclist falling off at high speed, they skim the road surface until they slow down then the tarmac bites! Ouch!
if you are concerned about a ros being too aggressive, switch to a finishing sander for final finer grits. i can honestly say i have always used a ros at the highest speed and then used the speed across the wood to control the cut (retired furniture maker).
I was thinking you might want to try a faster number of orbits per minute (higher number on the speed dial) and/or moving the sander more slowly. Either would result in micro-scratches overlapping more and reducing or eliminating the appearance of pigtails. Ten minutes ago, I knew nothing about orbital sanders.
I got a Bosch ROS65 which has variable speed. The sander is very good and super smooth, but I've never found the variable speed to be useful. In fact, I've going to put a blob of hot melt glue on the dial because it is always getting bumped the the speed turned down.
some finishes clog the paper at faster speeds - slowing them down helps. Also smaller work that would otherwise fly across your bench can be controlled better at smaller speeds. (we sand small pieces of 3mm plywood!!!) Remember though the sander moves less in the center and has less than 100% coverage just outside the shortest paper radius from the offset so you're sanding in a square bottomed donut shape deepest just before the edge
For hand-held tools, slowing down RPMs reduces vibration and therefore should help with long term nerve damage to the hands. Time-boxing the usage of hand-held power tools for health reasons is something the industry doesn't talk about? It is also an important reason to focus on using less-powerful tools.
Ive found it depends on what your working on, Certain woods & textures come off faster with more speed but some come off faster with less speed, or thats how i've felt its worked, On metal it hears up to fast if you it moves too fast. maybe Its really the different brands of paper ive used. I know those Hercules Ceramic 4x are some of the best papper ive liked but they hard to get.
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I think what dewalt is saying is its cheaper to use the same motor and have it run at its max speed than it is to use a different motor or include circuitry to slow the sander.
Before I subscribed I thought I had a basic knowledge of wood working. However, after each
one of your videos I walk away very humble. You teach without
putting us down. A very rare attribute among teachers.
I cannot thank you enough!
Dude if most of your teachers are putting you down something's up
You mean to say that it's normal of teachers to put you down? lol
Man oh man… it always leaves me baffled at the attention to detail on all things woodworking. I really think there should be a stumpy academy!
Sign me up!
Concur
Knowing all of this will not make you a good sander. Sanding a shit ton will though. Gotta play wit it
There is a Stumpy Academy , you're watching it.
Your, sir, is a very good professor. The way you talk, clearly and calmly, is very pleasant. Thank you for all the very helpful lessons!
Great video. I've found that pushing to hard can also melt the hook and loop pad on the sander and make the sand paper no longer attach properly.
Now I know why my sanding time never really changed. I would turn up the sander and make my passes faster, but it was never really any faster than when I turned it up and made normal passed.
This channel and few other showed me the errors of my ways. I take my time and use better paper. It’s actually saving me money.
I use lower speeds on my sanding machines for old paint layers or other materials that tend to “melt” with the heat of sanding and clog up the sandpaper. Sometimes I lower the speed to have more control on small ridges or near glass windows.
Tbh I don't think I've ever used my sander at it's highest speed, and more often than not I end up with marks. This explanation never crossed my mind at all, and it makes perfect sense. Many time I've oversanded a piece trying to get rid of the squiggly marks.
Thank you!
Most people don’t know this, but when you use an orbital sander below the equator, it rotates counterclockwise.
AND the Grain of the Wood is upside down!
Saw blades too
I’m wondering if you’re joking.
If you reverse polarity
And your arms get tired since most sanding is overhead.
That pigtail demonstration is genius!
Thanks for this video, the speed at which you deliver info is great, not full of fluff that waste my time. Appreciate your info immensely.
Correction at 3:08 if you moved the tool at 50% of the speed across the wood, that would actually be double the abrasion.
mafs
you're right!
Thank you... I might sleep well tonight. Gonna have to re-watch the vid cause that distracted me all along. Cheers
I caught that too, but we still love stumpy.
While this is true that if you go 50% the speed you double to sanding, what he said was going 50% slower which is meaningless without a comparison. Regardless I think we all understood his intent. Go slower and you sand more per inch.
I'm a crazy person that enjoys sanding.... I used to hate it but then just learned that there's no other spot on any job that I don't need to think.
And when you stop thinking completely I learned that is meditation and meditation has incredible power
Get into Hinduism
Awesome!! I've been binge-watching your videos since yesterday, and today I am heading out to my shop to begin my project for my wife's Christmas gift! I am fully confident that from the videos I watched yesterday and this morning, my project will be MUCH better as a result! I never tire of sitting down with a cup of my favorite coffee and watching your videos for hours. I wish I could actually spend some real time with you to learn more, but for now, I'll have to settle for YT. Thank you so very much!
Another gem. Paired with the general sanding video this is an absolute must-watch for all beginning wood workers and DIYrs. Just an outstanding contribution to the RUclips community.
You're like the Alton Brown of woodworking. I love your info and your vibe. Great video
Your instruction is ALWAYS valuable and welcome. And the discussions you incite are worth a dozen online “shop classes.” Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. THIS is what good teaching/education looks like!
Thank you!! You made me realize that most videos I watch fast-forward through the sanding. So of course I intuitively ended up sanding too quickly as well. It never occurred to me to slow down!!
I have to admit, I'm one that always dialed in around the 4 because I figured middle was good all around for most sanding tasks. Thanks for the video. Sander going to 6 today and staying there from now on.
Hey James, interesting video. I have a single-speed random orbit sander and I've never felt I needed it to go slower. I just wanted to point out that moving the sander at 50% less speed actually doubles the time it spends on each spot, not 50% longer. The rule is Change in Time (over each spot) = 1/Change in Speed, so if you want to spend 50% longer on each spot (3/2) you need to move one-third slower (2/3) .
Thanks James! The variable speed crapped out on my sander, leaving it struck at top speed. I thought this was disastrous, then used it as I was on site. I've never felt the need to replace it since.
"It was my understanding that there would be no math." Gerald Ford
@@fins9584 Chevy Chase
I came to the comments to write this too...
@@garyyardley7306 Chevy Chase playing Gerald Ford, yes.
Only on your videos will I admit that I am 44, with no career skills. My goal is to move back out to where my future wife, and my child are at, and enroll into a trade school. I don't know that woodworking is what I will go into, but I am endlessly fascinated by handy work. I find your videos to be valuable beyond measure. I hope I will figure out what will make enough money to support my family in the way they deserve, but until then, I'll be watching your videos and learning more and more.
Thank you for a well informed video.
It is irritating to see so many videos out there giving bad advice on sanding.
Yes, pigtails are simply the visible pattern of your sander. They are there no matter how you sand.
If you sand to a high grit level then the pigtails are so fine you just aren't noticing them - but they are there - it is the sander's pattern.
Badly visibly pigtails can be caused (as stated) debris under the pad (including corning from a finish or resin) or moving too fast (stretching your sander's pattern out - whatever the speed, moving to fast for that speed)... and bad sandpaper.
Cheap paper will not have the same quality control as better paper and so you may have larger grits contaminating the mix.
In any case (something not mentioned), why are people not sanding by hand for the final pass (unless you have a nifty inline sander)?
We always finish with a hand sanding (we are only sanding to 180 or 220 normally).
My routine will usually be to power sand to one grit higher than I want (so say 220). I will then drop back to 180 grit to do a quick hand sanding. This reduces the amount of time required to hand sand as you are not having to sand out the deeper marks of the previous sanding - you are sanding deeper marks... and removes ALL pigtails.
For those who do not hand sand - I recommend doing a test board in your usual routine, and then do another board as described with a hand sanding to finish. Apply a stain (yes professionals are using stain ALL the time - another youtuber attempted to claim we don't), let dry, and topcoat. I suspect you will see a clearer more pleasing result in the hand sanded test board.
I leave the sander at a highest speed unless I'm using a beast to shape wood and then I might bring it down to make it more controlled.
I will turn it down when doing a wet sanding on finishes, reduces heat and so reduces corning... also do not want it to aggressive as I do not want to sand too fast and cut through.
I love your videos. I don't even own any woodworking tools. The only experience I have with woodworking is in high school I built a dry sink. I do hope to have a workshop someday, and your videos have taught me so much. Thanks for the great content!
Good move, Keith. I hope it comes together for you.
I enjoyed woodwork classes at school, then went and did other things. Now I'm retired I'm slowly assembling a workshop (one wall and a door to go).
These are some of the most informative and motivating clips around. Once I have a workshop to practice in, I'll do some formal classes as well.
I am old enough to have worked with old cast aluminum encased, single speed, corded tools with finger-gym «clack» switches, and painted in the fanciest of colors. I still have the old full metal B&D drill of my dad - also single speed
And here I thought I was the only one old enough to remember and have a single speed tool. My original hangs on the wall as a momentous momentum to my youthful ways and how far technology has taken me and to remind me of the things I have forgotten. I have some hand tools that are so old they still say American Made.
One thing I have found using an RO sander to sand small items like box lids. This can cause the edges to sand faster leading to domed lids. The outer edge of the disk moves faster than the middle. For every revolution the outer edge has further to travel to complete a single rotation. This can give some interesting features to a project
Wow, you are so good at explaining things in a way that I really follow. Thanks for creating and sharing!
in cabinet industry speed settings are used in finish sanding. while some things are done by hand, as you suggested, large flat surfaces are done with ro. the speed settings are important because production finishes can be rushed and by changing the speed you are not just changing the rpm of the machine, you are changing the velocity of the orbit as well. velocity and friction are proportional at low speeds. less gumming of finishes that are not fully tacked or high in pigment content. it really is an important feature for working quickly in production finishing. even pneumatic ro sanders are variable speed.
Exactly... I have ro discs up to 25,000 grit, you need low speeds for these. Anything over 800 grit shouldn't be on higher speeds, IMO
In cabinet industry flat surfaces are done with a dual action sander(DA), not a RO(random orbit)
Stumpy Nubs with a side of Johnny Black, a great way to finish off the day! Thanks brother, my very best to you and yours!
I bought a Bosch ROS20VSC recently. I just opened the box this weekend, put on some 80grit, and spotted the variable speed wheel. Then I did something rarely done by most, I opened the manual and there it was "for most sanding jobs leave the speed on the highest setting and only hold the sander, do not press it down onto the work surface with force". I joke but this is a necessary video for those that might have been using it for years or bought a used tool etc.
I find that I'm generally holding the hose up rather than pushing the sander down. Just trying to keep the air hose from tipping the sander. Haven't had issues so far beyond the fact that sanding sucks no matter the technique.
@@Beakerbite I just used mine with the included filter canister, no hose, and I had to check to see if the sander was sanding because I couldn’t see any dust on the work piece or around it. It works great.
I learn something new every time I get an alert for a new post. Thank you!!
It also should be noted that on regular, common sanders, the higher the speed, the easier they are to control because of the increased stability. Due to the mechanism of the random rotation, lower speeds can cause the sander to jerk around and be very difficult to control.
This is so true. First time I tried a Rotex sander, I thought it was crap because it was so hard to control and I was fighting it the whole way. Turned out it was just on the lowest speed setting.
Hi everyone! If you are having troubles with a RO-sander jerking, here are a few things that can also be the problem besides speed settings:
The sole isn't flat,
The material has bumps in it,
Or the sole isn't perpendicular to the material.
Some machines have a bad balance. Check out Stubby's video on random orbit sanders, he is better at explaining than I am.
What an absolutely fantastic and informative video. I didn't even know my orbital sander had a variable speed and how to even use it properly, but now I do.Great job!
It acn be noted that one reason not mentioned for a slow sander would be if you are using it for stripping paint. Slower orbital speeds means less heat which means more efficient cutting and less smearing/melting when removing an old finish.
Whoa, you're right! That little dial changes the speed of the sander! But now that I found it, I'm gonna let it at 6. A bit more seriously, thanks lots for taking the time to explain the details. I really dislike sanding (_really_ dislike the dust, which I can never seem to control). This video has taught me just what I need to know so I can sand and get the best results in the least time. Thanks!!!
I had no idea what pigtails were and what caused them, what I did know was I had those scratch patterns in some of my projects. Invaluable lesson for me right here!
are you going thru the papers too quick? i.e. missing grits. i do a lot of work starting with rough timber and start at 40 on some stuff. then 60, 80, 120, 180, 220 maybe. if you miss one out you end up with more marks.
@@kanedNunable nah Im pretty vigilant to go up through the grades, Im fairly certain its my technique and or cheap pads retaining particles etc
This is the level of detail and explanations that I like and that few (if any) other channels do.
I think though the actual reason for the non variable DW sander is at full speed is because both variants uses the same motor, and the speed selector is just a variable resistor. Put the speed selector on the highest number and there is no extra resistance on the circuit and it gets the same full speed as the other version. Put the speed selector on a lower number and it increases the resistance slowing the motor down. Same as the volume nob on a stereo amplifier.
So there is probably less though put into what a good speed is and more about economies of scale ;)
One speed to rule them all. Hey ! I think he called me a tool. Thank you for the information, always learn something new here.
Thanks James-that clears up a few important basics in a straight forward way.
Excessive suction from the extractor can pull the sander down giving a similar effect as too much hand pressure will.
Thanks, could not work it out, and I always thought the dial was for the internal radio
I've made a few wooden boats and paddleboards and during the process I'll need to sand epoxied surfaces. Just controlling the speed of movement is going to be a disaster. Sanding creates heat in the workpiece and if that workpiece is an epoxied surface the heat is going to start melting the epoxy which is not good. It'll also clog up sanding discs as well. Controlling the speed on the sander - I use the slowest speed - is an absolute must do. Oh, and Mirka Abranet sanding discs are the dogs doo dahs! This comment is not sponsored by Mirka :-))
I do epoxy floors for a living. It is a great luxury to have variable speed sanders and grinders. Controlling first is a must
I have been refurbishing an old house lately, cleaning off the old exterior boards and repainting. They are New Zealand Rimu, which is about 120 years old, very dry, and very hard. I melt and scrape off the old paint, then sand to clean it. I found, by trial and error, that when using 40 grit disks, I needed to run the sander at its very lowest speed as even the best quality disks disintegrated at higher speeds - the backing hook-and-loop fabric parted from the sanding paper. This also meant a lot of cleaning of the hook-and-loop surface of the sander pad each time this happened. I guess the coarse grit and hard wood cause a lot of tension between the layers on the disk. Running at the slowest speed prevented this and also stopped clogging of the disk from remnants of paint and cleaned the wood quicker than using a higher speed, so the very lowest speed setting can be useful..
Thanks James, I learn something new every episode.
Great info as always! This is type of info for understanding something vs just knowing how to do something. Not just this video but pretty much all of them. Thank you!
Great video I saw you're others on sanding and whenever I see other RUclipsrs moving back and forth like they're in a curling match I think of your videos and laugh.
The way you explain things is so easy to understand. I myself am not really much of a sanding guy. I would rather take a plane or scraper to smoothen my freshly machined wood, but sometimes sanding is unavoidable. I always wondered why you would slow down the sanding machine, now I know 👍
Many thanks for sharing all your tips, ideas and experiences --- good channel with no BS or annoying bloody music :)
I often use the lowest speed when I'm rounding of corners, since I'm to lazy to set up my router. It gives you a lot more control when removing the corner.
Yeah, I use a low speed when sending the edge of plywood, especially if it is curved, it slows everything down and makes the sander more controllable.
25 years in the automotive refinish business. The only machine sanding is done on body work, and maybe prep work. Any sanding of base is by hand, as well as cured clear coat before buffing (although I do like a finishing DA for large sanding/buffing jobs).
Thanks, just saved me a few bucks when shopping for a new sander!
An excellent video that greatly increased my understanding of how to properly operate a random orbital sander.
I've had my Dewalt RO sander for many years, never had one with a dial because why would you ever need that feature.. (It's all about adding a price point to the tool)
Learn to control your speed, and you will get good results.. Also helps to work your way through the grits properly.
I like the Bosh 6in. Its has a random orbit and rotary mode for aggressive sanding. Great for very rough wood and polishing.
Not entirely related but these Bosch sanders are incredible sanders for working on boats with fairing compound, epoxy resins, and fiberglass. I like pairing them with Abranet mesh pads.
This has been bothering me for so long. Thank you for the explanation.
As a new woodworker years ago, I purchased a random orbit sander, as I heard it was an essential tool to have in a wood shop. Alas, I was not aware of the variable speed function and purchased one without it. This is the only tool out of dozens that I've bought since, I regret purchasing.
Don't regret your purchase. Instead...get comfortable and proficient with it. When you do...think about how much more skill you will have when it comes time to buy a new, variable-speed sander!
As I spoke above, I only use the single speed tools. Just makes things easier for me. To each their own, right? No random-orbit sander, in and of itself, is really bad. Many problems and difficulties are on the operator...as sorry as I am to say that. Just grab a piece of wood, a pencil and a cold one and start sanding. You'll soon get the feel for the tool, and will learn how to get the most out of it.
@@woodrowsmith3400 I appreciate the optimism! Perhaps I'll get one of those fancy pants ones like a Mirka.
Naveen...we all learn to adapt to the conditions we have at hand. Mirka? That would be nice, wouldn't it? But...in MY real world...not gonna happen. So, I use what I have. I can adapt. I get very acceptable results from the sanders I use...to the extent that my customers rave about the finish...and in the end...isn't that what we want?
i use a belt sander for big sanding jobs. i use my 2 bosch sanders for fine finish work. i just let them float across the wood .
Thanks James for the deep dive on this topic. I like my Dewalt corded sander & always keep it set at 6. I also find that the two-handed sanding method is the most comfortable with this sander: one hand on the “neck” of the sander (not on the top), and the other hand on the dust extractor hose. I do wish that Dewalt would change the location of the variable speed dial. I find that I frequently, inadvertently, move the variable speed dial. Would I enjoy sanding more if I had “Team Green’s” ETS EC 125 or 150? Sure. Gotta sell a lot more workbenches to afford one.
Interesting & informative video. When discussing sanders with variable speed controls you seem to have assumed that everyone just uses these type of sanders on relatively long pieces of unfinished wood. When sanding off some fillers, materials & sanding over old painted surfaces high orbit speeds tend to melt what is being sanded which clogs up the sanding disk.
Physically moving the sander faster across a piece of material isn't always a realist option to control the number of orbits taking place in a given area. With the technology available today the user / consumer should be able to choose the OPM, with a speed control, that is best suited for their particular material or task. Not everyone has a wall full of specialty tools available to do a particular job better than a standard RO sander. I wish this message would get to the manufacturers.
I'd bet the real reason that so many manufactures stopped building RO sanders without a speed control function is because it was easier & cheaper to make & not because some pseudo-scientific research on what speed the "average" consumer uses or needs to use.
In addition.. if you hand rotate counterclockwise at 12,000 rpm your random orbital sander becomes a block sander. This saves much needed space in my shop. 🙂
I cheaped out and got the single speed Dewalt. In the super rare times I want less speed, I just press super light on it, or switch to a finer paper. No regrets.
James, this info is very much appreciated. I've wondered for a long time about that dial.
Great job explaining a topic I thought everyone already understood. Always full speed, just enough grip so it doesn't get away. I travel a touch faster though.
For the most part, I've used air-powered sanders, which are a lot more aggressive than the electric models. After 35 years, I could count on both hands the number of times I've used a sander at any other setting other than high. And that was only on very delicate material.
As I think you hinted, there is also the type of wood to consider. I guess the most important thing Robson pay attention to the result you are achieving. Adjust feed rate as appropriate. Thanks for the thought provoking presentation.
I've worked orbital sanders out of my work flow almost entirely. I usually use bench planes clean up my saw marks which was what I was using the orbital sander for mostly in the first place. They do a better job and they do it faster providing the blade is sharp. I'm not entirely convinced, even, that powered finish sanding is any faster or more effective than hand sanding by someone who knows what their doing. The only time I use one is when I'm sanding decking plugs, but I'd probably be better off with a small belt sander TBH. The primary problem with an orbital sander is that it will always cut across the grain half the time and it will never look as good as wood sanded with the grain.
Definitely nerding out on sanding, way out in the weeds. 😆👍
Your content is ridiculously informative. Thanks from Nova Scotia!
You are a Suttle, powerful communicator....well done!
Thank you
just jim
Hats off to you Stumpy, you ALWAYS deliver solid content and a Red Wings tumbler. Follower in Detroit.
I use top speed unless I need more control to avoid over rounding edge or changing profile too fast
I agree with pretty much everything in that video. Personally, though, I wouldn’t use coarse sand paper on veneer. If a pressure mark is visible, I’d steam it first. Never lower than 180 grit on thin veneers.
Yeah I'm surprised he didn't go that direction... If you want to sand slower, use finer paper. Simple common sense right? I've never had or used a variable speed orbital. Never felt the need either.
I used to hate sanding until I started using dust collection.
I have a 6" polisher/sander that seems to give a great result on larger surfaces, I always tend to keep the speed setting high. I'm not sure if the "through" is larger than normal being a polisher but it seems to work great. I have an 6" Air RO sander that can also double as a polisher, seems great at both but consumes lots of air but is much nicer to use.
I started drawing pencil lines on my work piece before sanding and its helped my sanding a lot. According to my pencil lines I was sanding way to slow. I keep my sander on high and I move by my pencil lines. Only thing having my sander on high I just rounded over a corner I was sanding by slowing down and having 80 grit on.
We used chalk in the wood shop. We would take the flat long side of the chalk and rubbed it over the wood. It highlights all scratches and smaller uneven places.
@@JonathanUbrig I tried your chalk trick with sanding I think I like it , it did show a few low spots in think I like it Good tip
Informative and gets to the nitty gritty
Thanks - I needed that :-) Never liked sanding, but then I had no idea how to use a sander to good effect.
As usual very good information. It also looks like your hand has healed well.
I have a sander that broke. I found that the speed control was what was broken. I by-passed it, so now my sander has only one speed. That was many years ago, and it still works!
I LOVE yr videos more than any other wood crafter
I've been using ROS for 30+ years now. My first was teal. I spent a couple hours learning the tool and the difference between it and the quarter-sheet sander I was currently using. Thought a lot about the speed of my own movements and how much I "sat" on the sander. Did the 'pencil' trick multiple times to judge how rapidly material was removed. Got a reasonable muscle memory going on, and because of that, I use single-speed Random Orbit Sanders exclusively.
I currently have two in my shop. One is teal, the other is neon green. Each has it's place and time. Teal is more for finish work on fine projects of solid and ply wood. Greenie gets abused...smoothing rough-sawn material, older reclaimed woods that may have embedded dirt, grit and gravel, and...wait for it...finishing off polishing old woodworking tools that have cast-iron tops.
I use 100, 150, and 220 grits for 98% of my sanding apps. A minor step away from the 80-120-180-220 school of thought which allows my to skip a step in hardwood sanding, and two in softwoods. Rarely do I need to use 60-80 grit, and if I need a finish finer than 220, I'll break out the sheet stock and sand by hand.
There's about a $10 difference between single-speed and variable-speed Sanders within a given brand. I buy a new RO sander about every 2-3 years. I take that savings and buy a $10pak of 60 grit which lasts 2-3 years...lol. I go thru about 3 boxes of 100...a box of 150...and a half of a box of 220 in that same time.
....thinking maybe Bosch for the next one
I use my sander with 400 grit mesh to level my mohawk nitro lacquer on guitars. I have a craftsman, that's 12k i believe, it's up there with the dewalt but didn't have the dial. I think slowing down for using 400grit and higher grits could be beneficial for sanding lacquer on edges or sides of certain work pieces, as far as instruments are concerned.
I started out using my first orbital sander at top speed, pretty much for the reasons offered in this video. I wanted aggressive sanding over large surfaces.
To my surprise, I found that the fastest cutting effect was at about 3/4 of the range. I don't know why for sure, but I had a sensation at full speed that the sander was almost floating on the workpiece, producing very fine sawdust rather than biting into the material. This was particularly evident on softwoods such as cedar and pine.
Now I'm wondering if I formed a false impression somehow. I should go back and run some more tests using a micrometer and stopwatch so that I'm not relying on subjective impressions.
If the difference is so minimal that you need to extensively test it, then I'd say it's irrelevant. Just go with feels best.
I know it's not a sander and doesn't seem even close... BUT it's probably relevant here.
About a decade ago, I ended up with a chain-saw. It had the smallest tooth-set on the market, but someone had tinkered with it to over-rev' the engine... and it was funny, which was more why I bothered with it than anything... I knew that kind of arrangement would shorten the saw life.
BUT... I sharpened the chain (something I'm quite used to on all chains, even the antiques with ENORMOUS teeth in comparison)... AND with a fresh tank of gas, I laid the cutting edge into a relatively ordinary length of poplar that had been laying in the yard for about a week... It shredded the bark fine enough... but then the teeth basically skipped uselessly over the wood at full throttle (the usual method for using a 2-cycle chainsaw... just squeeze and go)... Even engaging with the dogs and adding leverage didn't seem to fight the "speed-skip"... until I'd deliberately feathered OFF the throttle trigger, and running less than 3/4 full or so, where the chain near-instantly caught and dove right into the wood like a hot knife through butter...
SO just before you dismiss your impressions... It IS possible that if your sander feels like it's "just floating" due to speed... It's possible you've just found a harmonic or whatever by which, basically, that's exactly what it was doing... floating or bouncing just about uselessly over the work instead of engaging and cutting into it. ;o)
I had the same impressions. It brings to mind an episode of Myth Busters where they tested if a car driving fast enough over rumble strips would feel the rumble less than someone going slower. In the end they found that if you go fast enough that you just go from one bump to the next without really hitting the low spots and getting the bump. I wonder if the same principle applies to sanding.
I think you could very well be right. A bit like aquaplaning of a tyre. OR take a motorcyclist falling off at high speed, they skim the road surface until they slow down then the tarmac bites! Ouch!
My dad always said... "If you need to press down excessively, use a coarser grit and work your way up to a finer one. Let the machine do the work."
if you are concerned about a ros being too aggressive, switch to a finishing sander for final finer grits. i can honestly say i have always used a ros at the highest speed and then used the speed across the wood to control the cut (retired furniture maker).
I get pigtails a lot, didn’t know that even had a name. How do you avoid that? Just slow down?
I was thinking you might want to try a faster number of orbits per minute (higher number on the speed dial) and/or moving the sander more slowly. Either would result in micro-scratches overlapping more and reducing or eliminating the appearance of pigtails.
Ten minutes ago, I knew nothing about orbital sanders.
Another great class at Stumpy School.
I got a Bosch ROS65 which has variable speed. The sander is very good and super smooth, but I've never found the variable speed to be useful. In fact, I've going to put a blob of hot melt glue on the dial because it is always getting bumped the the speed turned down.
I have never thought of a sander in that way. Good informative video
Another informative, well explained, and well edited video lesson. Thanks for all the valuable information you impart and keep 'em coming.
James my sander goes to 11 and thats where I keep it. Its 1 faster. 😂
In all seriousness great video. Thanks for such great info.
Terrific video, well made and clearly explained - even for those of us who think we knew everything. ;)
Great stuff - I'd be interested in a video covering speed etc for a portable belt sander.
some finishes clog the paper at faster speeds - slowing them down helps. Also smaller work that would otherwise fly across your bench can be controlled better at smaller speeds. (we sand small pieces of 3mm plywood!!!)
Remember though the sander moves less in the center and has less than 100% coverage just outside the shortest paper radius from the offset so you're sanding in a square bottomed donut shape deepest just before the edge
For hand-held tools, slowing down RPMs reduces vibration and therefore should help with long term nerve damage to the hands. Time-boxing the usage of hand-held power tools for health reasons is something the industry doesn't talk about? It is also an important reason to focus on using less-powerful tools.
A subject I could never work out,your vid is great
Silly question, how did you connect your dewalt sander to your festool dust extractor? Did you have a special adapter?
Duct tape will help while you work out an adapter coupling.
I love attending SNU! What’s SNU, you ask? Nothing, what’s new with you. Stumpy Nubs University Class of 2022!
Ive found it depends on what your working on, Certain woods & textures come off faster with more speed but some come off faster with less speed, or thats how i've felt its worked, On metal it hears up to fast if you it moves too fast. maybe Its really the different brands of paper ive used. I know those Hercules Ceramic 4x are some of the best papper ive liked but they hard to get.
Wonderful information, thank you for sharing this with us today from Henrico County Virginia