Why is everyone always hating on poplar. It takes stains beautifully and it has grain that is plenty interesting. It just takes extra time and care and preparation to get 'good' results. In fact, I've never seen a single wood species (of the non high oil content variety) that doesn't stain and have beautiful natural grain.
It's so varied on grain and color that, at least from a finish carpenter's prospective, makes it hard to use for clients all over their house. Sometime the grain and color looks fine, but then it can look brown, green and then a more natural wood color, and most clients don't like it. And then finishing it with a sealant or using stain on it brings out the oddness of it. I agree, sometimes it looks fine, but it's just not consistent enough for most people. By the time you pick out all the pieces that make a door casing look good, you've got a pile of "crap wood" twice as large as what you used. Now, if you're making a small piece of furniture or a box or something: cool. But don't trim your house of make cabinets that you want to clear coat or stain!
@@christophercharles9645 Exactly! 35 years of woodworking and building. Not even close to being an expert but that’s one of the reasons why Poplar wood is avoided. From a cost perspective of trying to get it to look good and not waste money on wood (cost perspective) or a bunch of time (cost perspective) I would avoid using poplar wood. I always said that I can do it but it’s about 8-10 times the price and time of building something in an African Blackwood or a Bubinga wood. Most people want a specific color and grain look. They quite often don’t realize that unless they have proper lighting in their house that the room & the wood itself becomes very dark due to the inept lighting.
I agree with most below: most of us ain't professional woodworkers, and for sure, most of us ain't working for high end clients. Stain from the big box store might not be the best, but it certainly works well enough for the new Pine end table in the basement... Let's not make shit much harder than it needs to be...
Unfortunately, pine is one of the hardest woods to make look good due to its wild graining and the variations of porousness of the wood. It stains very blotchy unless steps are taken to even out the porousness, such as using a pre-stain conditioner. Unfortunately, if you are trying to get the wood quite dark, the pre-stain prevents it from getting real dark. In this case, one trick is to wet the wood first, let it dry, sand it lightly, and then use the pre-stain, followed by the stain and finish. Water always opens up the grain of wood. Caution: if rain or water has been splashed onto the wood, those spots will take stain quite dark.
Some of us who are not woodworkers at all but are looking to do a couple projects, appreciate knowing the best way to do it so that it looks nice in the end and it doesn't have to be re-done because it didn't turn out very well. I don't even want to do it once, let alone twice.
Biochemist here! Not a PhD, but a MSc! I can't know this for sure, but based on what I'm seeing from the MSDS, I think it's called "Mixol" because it's alcohol-based (generally alcohols end with the suffix "-ol"), and not because it sounds like "mix-all". And alcohols would mix well with other alcohols, and usually with water as well. Makes sense that it would not mix with oils or anything hydrophobic.
And THAT'S why you make friends with smart people 😂 It's also a German product so I know the name is lost in translation a little bit. Good to know though. I wonder then why it mixes well with acetone?
@@ENCurtis acetone is in the family of ketones, which is what we call hydrocarbons that have a double-bonded oxygen atom. The smaller a ketone molecule is, the more it is soluble in water. The larger a ketone is, the less soluble it is in water and the more it will mix with oil. Since acetone is the simplest and smallest ketone, having only one carbon atom on each "chain", it's the ketone which mixes best with water.
But the "reason why", more to the point, is that the oxygen atom tends to pull electrons more towards itself than the carbon atom. So the electron cloud will be tilted away from the carbon (making a partial positive charge) and towards the electron (making a partial negative charge). Since the molecule has a partial charge (ie. an electric charge "polarity") which depends on what angle you're interacting with it, it will happily make "hydrogen bonds" with water. The molecules of both types will attract each other, which is what it means for two substances to mix well together.
It also looks, from looking at the German wiki page for "Alkohole", that they also follow the same IUPAC chemical nomenclature. I'm not a German speaker, so I can't be sure there aren't funny language things, but it looks like it works similarly as in English and French.
Interesting take on "toner" use. I'm retired, owned a 20 man shop making commercial work. Offices, medical, retail, restoration. Avoided kitchens. Whatever was specified by the designer is what we tried to provide. High $$ conference rooms were typically paneled with sequence matched veneer panels that were custom laid up for the job. Since a given log will only yield so many prefect pieces of veneer, the finishing process needed to make the variations minimally apparent. That's where toning came in. (Finishes came in 55 gallon drums and were pumped to pressure feed HVLP guns.) We generally started with a wash coat of sealer. That prevented some of the color variations that are due to differing absorption of the finishes due to grain orientation. Many of the colorants used were Sherwin Wms Universal colorants (ultra fine ground pigments that acted almost like a dye, - red, green orange, yellow, browns, black...) Many dyes tend to fade so we avoided them if possible. The first color coat was mixed with a stain base (no color of its own) and a colorant. A seal coat of the finish was applied. At that point the finisher could compare the approved finish sample to the work. A common issue was sapwood looking different. The next operation was using a small gravity feed HVLP cup gun or an airbrush plus hand held shields, the colors were matched in the lighter areas to the main body. If there were little dark spots those were colored in with colored pencils made for the purpose or a fine artist brush. Two top coats with a light sanding between. The panels were fully dried and stacked in sequential order for shipping. The panels had labeled backs that showed the sequence # and location of each panel on a room diagram. All the moldings had to match also. I should note that the finishing products we used came though the industrial divisions of the suppliers and many of them are not available @ retail. We also used some waterborne finishes. They require different skills but can be excellent. Grain filling is another technique that can enhance open grained wood. Be careful, use protective gear, use a spray booth if at all possible, store finishes in a fire protection cabinet. Keep, up to date, fire extinguishers near exits. If you are commercially finishing use the free technical services of the suppliers.
You can also use water based colour to stain wood and apply an oil finish afterwards. Guitars makers do this all the time, it's just a two step process. Stain, sand, stain again, burnish wait 24hs and apply the top coat (oil or water based)
I'm really glad you covered this topic! As someone that does finish work for a living, it can get deflating trying to explain to clients why it costs so much to do compared to a can of stain from the big box stores. Especially if they have an exact tone or interior design concept they want.
It costs me around 20 bucks a gallon to make a base for my stain devoid of color. I could make it cheaper if I didn't care for my health. My stain smells good! Like walking into an orange Grove. The bottles of mixol are $5.80. While I don't know exactly how much goes in a gallon. I would think less than a bottle, surely less than 2. So with color I would guesstimate about $26 dollars in cost. Flip that to the customer for 50 even. I'm 7 dollars more than Varathane for a high quality gallon of custom made stain. This is based off slight bulk buying on 1 ingredient in 4 gallon allotments. Technically still all retail pricing though. I'm still kind of new to finishing. Mixing colors is the hardest part of all of it. If I were bidding this stuff for custom finishing. I would charge separately to create thier finish, then sell them their finish, then install it if they chose. How much do you think varathane would charge for a 1 off custom color? 5,000? 10,000? Would it even look good? If it takes me 5 hours to figure out a custom color. That's $200 in labor. That's where the money sink is in custom color matching. That's where skill and fine tuning a process can save the homeowner loads of money. Through a body of knowledge built over time through decades of making samples, one can reach a point they most likley have options fairly close to what people want, allowing us installers to expedite the color matching process as well as minimize it.
Great video. Please cover the the safety issues with acetone! I grew up in a fiberglass factory and learned two things: 1) Acetone burns with a nearly invisible flame, and 2) Acetone is a powerful explosive. So no sources of ignition while working with acetone.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on colorants with us. Here's a few comments if I may: 1) you most certainly can topcoat a waterbased stain or dye colored piece with solvent-based topcoats, so let's clarify that point right away. Simply ensure you allow the time necessary for the colorant mixture (dye or stain) to fully cure before laying on the topcoat. 2) If you ever need to dulicate a finish, you'll wish that you had measured the individual elements (in your example, bix box paint, mineral spirits and oil-based poly, which is known in the industry as the topcoat). 3) here's a trick to help highlighting open pored woods: to highlight the open pores of woods such as the oak you cited in your example, pro finishers will first dye the entire piece with whatever colour they wish the background (i.e., the less porous wood areas) to finish off at, then lock that in with a light wash coat of thinned topcoat, followed by the dye they wish the open pore areas to be - which in most cases is a very contrasting colour. Then all of this is topcoated. 4) one important difference between analine dye and pigmented stain is the effect UV rays have on the two: the analine dye will rapidly degrade its tone unless you topcoat it with a highly-UV protecting product. Choose carefully, as not all topcoats will provide the required protection needed. 5 I hope this all helps.
i was wondering what happened to the advice that water based stain can mostly take an oily top coat after it dries. the water is the problem, and it would be a pretty rare dry pigment that had a virulent disagreement with a non-polar top coat. very good post thanks. imo seems like a losing game trying to protect fugitive dyes where there's high UV exposure. UV blocking clear coat is spendy last i checked and there are lots of stable colorants. for pigment nerds, the Handprint website is obsessively interested in lightfast artist pigments
Bingo. And as you obviously know, there are even more approaches to use with dyes and topcoats, toners, etc. this guy might want to stay away from finish videos and stick with what he knows best.
Has a lifelong woodworker I have finished many many projects and I've always felt this was a skill that I was weakest in. Your explanation of dyes , toners and stains was excellent. I have experimented with Adeline Dye with some success and your video added to that knowledge base. thank you !!
I played around with dyes and stains a lot last year to no avail. This video was more (and better) info than I found in months of searching. Thank you, this video has been a ton of help!
I started testing mixol pigments based off online reviews. I want to test transtint too, but it's a bit more expensive (bigger bottles). It has been a game changer so far! A big part of it for me too has been developing my base. My next step is to pull the oil out of my base, replacing it with ethanol and water. This should allow me to do glue ups of contrasting stained pieces. Right now I'm working on stuff in the rustic farm style. I'm staining oak to a walnut color, and doing a whitewash stain to contrast it. I'm also doing similar stuff in natural maple, with a weathered greywash to contrast it.
Oh ya forgot to mention. My stain smells like oranges too! It's also quite healthy, being made from hospital ingredients (isopropyl 99%), food safe orange oil solvent (d-limonene), and water! The wood shop never smelled so good! Oranges, cedar, pine, and oak!
I may have you beat. I watched some vids where they stripped & bleached mahogany but I think used polyacrylic on top. Looked pretty, but I'm afraid to do anything now with the mahogany table bleached out to a light amber/yellow tone and still have china cabinet and chairs?! If it's ok with you, I'd like to take 1st place for dummy..... not that you are, of course.
I’ve finished a couple of guitar bodies. Water based brown or black dye goes on first, then I sand it back so that the “fur” with the dye gets removed. That really pops the grain. Then alcohol dyes to get whatever look I’m going for. Finally a subtle toner gives the finish depth. It also gives me an opportunity to tweak the final color of the finish. Use test panels and go through your entire planned finish process on each test sample. Measure and take notes. Use the color wheel to guide you in adjusting dyes to “get the red right.” (I don’t know why but getting red right on wood is a bear.)
Startburst? It's called sunburst. Stringed instrument makers employ a whole range of techniques to get the effect they want. A violin is almost white before it's finished. The terms used seem to have changed over the last fifty years. What's now called dye used to be called stain. Stain didn't used to be a coloured finish, it was just something to colour the wood before a clear finish coat was applied. @@ENCurtis
I love using dyes, but I also have often used a coat of yellow or deep amber shellac as a toner and/or as a way to then be able to apply further toner or stain without it penetrating into the open pores of the wood. As a former fine arts student and designer, agree the fundamentals of colour theory are particularly helpful when you start mixing up your own tints. This was an excellent tutorial, thanks so much for this detailed information and demonstration.
Eric, thanks very much for this intro into stains, dyes and toners. You've lifted the curtain and given me a good opening to start experimenting. - bonus for anyone interested: I used OSB to cover the walls of my basement shop, because it's cheap and interesting looking. My cabinet tops are all shellacked MDF (Zinsser/amber) and I tried that on the OSB. Wow! They complement the MDF and the effect is quite warm and pleasing. Cheap solution.
I can see this being useful to match an existing antique or something, but 9 times out of 10 for new work, the pre-mixed stain is going to be easier, more consistent, and repeatable.
A small scale really helps in color consistancy. If you measure out your additives you can replicate the color as needed. I have found that even off the shelf stains can have a pretty good amount of variation in color from can to can.
I recently built and installed a peninsula cabinet as an addition to a customer's existing kitchen. They wanted it to match their 10 year old stained maple cabinets, and being the yes-man that I am, I obliged. I made a toner with the information I learned from this video, and it was a remarkable success. I learned a ton, and can't thank you enough! I am sure I will use these techniques for years to come, and probably never buy premixed stain again.
I watched the other video about the 5 youtube tips that professionals hate today and stain was the only one I used. So of course I had to watch this video. I done the toner method before on a guitar I was making. Everything else, I usually use stains. After watching this, I still plan on using stains. The reason is simple. I am a hobbyist and price is an issue. I use reclaimed wood or free wood I can get locally. The same goes for stains. Most of the stains I have I got for free. I do apply a finish over my stains because I want to preserve the color and finishes add to the richness of the wood. Stains are not accurate in the color but I can reapply if I want it darker. Because it is preexisting, I don't have to try to make my own color or try to match a previous batch. It is just easier. However, I will use what I learned here. I am always striving to learn more.
Reclaimed wood is usually the best wood to use. New wood has not yet done most of what it will do in its early lifetime. Old wood is the best, because it has already done most of what it will do. Knowing the types of wood can help also, and so can knowing what the best wood to use is for what you wish to make. Glad to see you use reclaimed wood.
I'm just an amateur woodworker. I've done a couple of things to my projects in the past. The first was when we renovated our kitchen I wanted to have the baseboards and window casings match the cabinets. So I went to the manufacturer of the cabinets and purchased a can of the stain they used for the cabinets. The second thing I've done when I want to match a stain to something existing is I've gone to a local paint and stain store that custom mixes stains. I give them the piece that I want to match and a piece of the bare wood and they mix it up for me.
I’ve been a cabinet and furniture maker for years. I have always use Minwax oil based stains, but wow you have opened my eyes to want to try this. Thank you for this video. I’m a fairly new subscriber to your channel and with each video, I am excited that I subscribed. I love your no bs delivery approach to every video you do
It’s not. All you have to do is learn how to finish wood properly and you can take the cheapest store bought stain out there and make your project look better than anything this weirdo gatekeeper of “pro woodworkers” can make.
As an artist who is also a woodworker hearing that I can use oil paint to make any colour, exactly the shade I desire makes my heart sing. I have extensive experience with dyeing silk fabric and threads as well and thought this was the way to go. I wish I knew this when I was renovating my house and needed to match the colour of existing stained wood. I got close enough, but it has always bugged me that I couldn't get exactly what I was after. I'll be trying these techniques out on two new sets of doors that I need to make.
This reminds me of what I learned in college painting classes, creating glazes in multiple layers. Then using this method to either diffuse a focal point or add additional depth that an opaque layer could not create. Thank you for the inspiration.
Aniline dye has been my go to for decades. So versatile and more colours than you will ever need. One of the things I really love about Aniline is you can get it in either water or solvent soluable form. I personally prefer the solvent soluable as it works really well with Citrene Turpene or Pure Gum Terpene. It is nice walking into the shop and having it smell like an Orange Grove or Eucalyptus Forest and not a chemical factory.
@@ENCurtis I started experimenting with the WD Lockwood powdered dyes last year. I went with water and alcohol-or-water based ones since I thought I would mostly be using them with shellac. I then spent a lot of time evaporating alcohol out so I could replace it with water because the alcohol evaporates so fast it gets patchy (apparently it's great if you apply with HVLP sprayer). I've mostly moved on to oil/poly type finishes so might have to pick up a few of their oil-based ones. The colors themselves are excellent, and quite easy to mix (albeit a bit messy).
Been using WD Lockwood dyes since the early 2000s, when I learned about them from a member on WoodWeb. They are incredibly transparent, which makes them amazing to work with. They're the only dyes that I know of that don't lead to splotchy results on some difficult woods to stain. I once stained a hard maple floor in my house to a charcoal gray, and there was zero splotchiness in the outcome. It's almost as if the wood grows in that color considering how even it penetrates, and dries. Also it's the only stain that on oak doesn't leave that lurid darkening of the open grain. I will only heed a word of caution, if you use water-based polys or lacquers, they often dissolve the dye back into solution. So it's advisable in a finishing schedule to alternate between water-based product and an oil-based one to seal the color. They're a great company in NYC, and a super small business which I love to support.
What brands solvent soluble dyes are you using ? It seems a must in recent 15-20 years , at least here in NY you simply CAN'T get good stains ,you have to make your own, just turned 60 & want to finally restore all the antique stuff I accumulated all my life, just for this time. & now I can't. . . But I can, screw you NY lawmakers I'll order it if they won let me buy it in a store . any solvent mixes you recommend, I think the old radios and victrolas used a shellac and lacquer mix
Just to mention one other choice; If you have crappy wood, you can seal it with shellac or very thin varnish, and then use the toner over the sealed surface. That way you avoid any blotching that often occurs with pine or poplar or certain other woods. A lot of furniture is finished this way and it's fine. Try it. It's what the pros do.
Just the casual woodworking DIY'er here so I don't need anywhere near this level of technique. Big box stains/finishes are just fine with me. But, I do love to learn and this is great content in that regard...so thank you. 👍
I have to say nice to see you using paint. That is my biggest stain i use due to the fact that i can get a larger variety of colors. And i know you showed oil based paint, but you can use water based also
There is a channel John's Furniture Repair. She restores old furniture for clients and her color matching for old colors is pretty amazing. She doesn't specifically teach staining but you can pick up some things.
Trina (sp?) is a master of "toning" - she usually uses spray toners but she has one heck of an eye for making things match and look good. Between Tom Johnson and "John's Furniture" I've learned a lot. Personally - I hate finishing and am therefore not meticulous or patient enough, but just learning that color does not have to go on first - it can be added to finished 'film' coats (toner.. "Toning") was a game-changer for me. And it's great that it's reversible.
Blessings, Eric; thanks for explaining that. It was helpful. Years ago, an old-timer told me about Van Dyke Crystals to restain an old oak chest of draws I was restoring at the time. It was useful. When I had finished, you couldn't tell the old finish from the new. Apparently, it's what the old English carpenters used to stain oak. Cheers from Western Australia.
Great video! Dyes are actually transparent, hence the name "transtint" while a pigment blocks light. So the only reason a dye solution would "soak in" better is the vehicle or base that its in allows that. The clarity comes from the transparency of the color used.
Pigments are also insoluble in the solvent they're in, so they sit on the surface of the wood, while dyes are dissolved, so they soak into the wood. When something dissolves in a solvent, it breaks up into individual molecules, which are so small they soak easily into wood. At the microscopic level, pigment is like rocks, while dye is like colored liquid.
I like to use Angelus leather dyes and mix the colors to get what I want. I've done a few guitars this way and it's been my go-to. But honestly, my favorite finish is to use the Sugi-Ban method of burning and sanding the wood, and then seal with an oil or shellac. No stains or dyes and it's super durable.
Good video! I'm not a fan of Poly as a finish but use dyes quite a bit. An additional nice thing about dye is that you can color wood before gluing, thus avoiding any issue of glue residue affecting the "color." Staining before gluing prevents a strong glue bond but alcohol or water based dye does not affect the glue's ability to penetrate the wood fibers.
There are oil soluble aniline dyes available in the US. You can buy many shades of shellac and further dye shellac with Transtint. And Rubio makes water-based stains that are compatible with hard wax finishes like Rubio Monocoat (which doesn’t work with other stains or dyes. Lots of options!
Given the choice, I prefer gum turpintine over mineral spirits because turpentine is a very slight drier, but if I'm in a rush, I add a drop or three of japan drier. For tinting oil based finishes, I use student grade artists oil paints. With tubes of alizarin crimson, phthalo blue, burnt umber, raw siena, and black you can get most any wood tone you might need. The effect is more like a toner than a strain or dye.
Hi Eric. This video just popped up on my you tube feed so I had to check it out. I’m a out of the can kinda guy but you know it was one of the most informative videos I’ve watched. Thank you. I’ll have to check with my big box stores up here in Toronto Canada
If the samples you to use are agreed upon, it works just fine. Grain seal is important though. It helps keeps the cost down on some larger pieces using ready-made. . I always makes sample per species chosen if I cannot convince them to not stain. I’ll add a coat of shellac with toner if needed. Another thing I do is add more “binder” the stain itself. I’ll do 1/3 additional binder (blo) to the stain color blend.
@@Gamers_of_Oz not sure if you got your answer…stains from the big box stores are suspensions. Chunks of a solid media, like crushed stone, settle to the bottom and never dissolve. The microscopic bits of stone lay on top of the wood. Stirring them makes the media temporarily suspend in the solvent.
You can use dewaxed shilac flakes mix with denatured alcohol then apply on the poplar wood . Let dry sand with 320 grit then apply what ever stain , dye what ever then you make that look like a 15 $ board ft wood
From the video, this is what I got: Stain is pigment in finish, that sits on the surface of the wood. Dye is pigment in solvent. The solvent evaporates out of the wood leaving the wood coloured but unfinished. Toner is pigment in finish, that sits on the surface of the wood. But that would make stain and toner the same thing. The only difference I can see between stain and toner is that stain is applied directly to the wood and toner is applied on top of another finish.
Damn…good video. I have to admit, I haven’t ever used dyes. I’ve had a a bottle of trans tint in my cart for a while and haven’t pulled the plug. I now have the confidence to try it out. Thanks brother.
If I need to color wood, I usually use ‘Fiebig’s Leather dye’ It’s alcohol based and you can mix it, for end-finish i use a wax based finish - Pipemakers using leather dye too for tobacco pipes
My preference in finishes is to use straight polyurethane varnishes. Wipe on does best, but I do it with two types: Satin finish leaves a dull sheen once it cures, and needs no sanding if you follow the first coat before it is fully cured. Add up to three more coats of the satin finish in the same way, allowing the cure to almost completely cure but not quite fully. The instruction on the container it comes in tells you the time it takes to fully cure, depending on weather conditions. Now for the next coat, switch to Glossy finish. Allow to cure fully. Use a very fine grit sandpaper to lightly sand the entire surface. Wipe the dust off with a damp cloth. Add another coat of the Glossy finish, and allow to cure fully. sand with the same grit sandpaper, and wipe off the dust with your damp cloth. App your last coat of Glossy finish, and allow to cure fully. You should have a finished product that has depth in its beauty. When finishing wood, I like to use wood that has character. I never put an opaque finish like paint on wood that has character. I want the wood to sell itself to the customer, so I make sure that the character of it pops. Maybe you could do a video concerning this method I outlined here! Just a suggestion.
What I like about using toners is you can use them to offset certain wood tones. For example, a lot of people don't like how orange some woods are. If you created a toner with a drop of blue or green TransTint, it will neutralize the orange and make it visually more brown. Just be careful on the amount you use because you can use too much.
I like to add a color glaze. VanDyke Brown will give you a nice layer of "dirt". Let it build up in the corners and lower areas. Clean it off the flats and you have added 100 years of age to your piece. (You can tweak the color using raw or/and burnt umber) (the same effect can be achieved with wax) I usually do my colors in layers. I start with dye and then stain over. (Sometimes I mix colors. Other times they are applied as highlights in different layers. You are right about "store bought" stains.) finish, glaze, finish, I shy away from toner. It can cause the finish to be muddy. Don't be afraid to sand through a color layer for effect. Sometimes I use wax as a final layer. Not usually clear, but color highlights. Here and there where it is needed.
All I know is matching stains takes way too long but it’s a necessary process to achieve a result a customer is looking for. I’ll watch this several times until I can absorb your information. Obviously you understand what you are doing I’m just a little slower at understanding but I want to so thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I didn’t mean to be critical of you for my inability to get all this first go around. I should have applied what I just learned yesterday. Stimulus/pause/ reaction. I could have arranged my comment more accurately. I’m sorry for my previous comment.
The problem with adding colorant to the varnish, or whatever protectorant clear coat, is that the color does not penetrate way into the fiber of the wood. If the finish piece is then scratched, the bare wood shows immediately. Also, if it is on a wear surface, such as a table top or floor, the color lessens as the finish coat wears thin!
I have been a woodworker for 60 years. I used to use stains more often, but now hardly ever. On the rare occasion I want a specific look, (like my wife wanted a very dark black on a particular part of a desk carcass I used a wood that stained well for that part with not too much grain showing, (Happened to use basswood). I didn't want the stain on the drawer fronts to transfer to the sides, (cherry, which can be blotchy when stained). Worked out well, but it was a bit of a PIA. I'm not against a bit of tint, just that doing a mediocre job is terrible. Stain is fine for outdoor wood (fences) where you want the protection of TiO2, but don't want to paint.
I just finished a project used trans tint always decent results with stain but the liquid die night and day difference really like and results with dye I seem to really like tongue oil better than polyurethane. Seems like it has better results to me personally, a bunch of coats tongue oil seems to look better and easier than even wipe on poly to my experience?
Excellent review of your finishing methods. I like the dark 'stain-wash' example. From my (long past) model railroading years, I also make stain starting with dry artists pigment powders. Lots of flexibility too. Good stuff. Thanks.
I'm in a poorly ventilated basement so I use a lot of rust stain, coffee stain and wine stain. I've also been playing around with grape and blueberry juice stains.
The other thing about oil paints in tubes from art supply stores is that the pigment quality is superior to furniture-grade stuff. The toner application's depth of color is like glazing in oil painting. Thin, transparent layers are built up and there's an effect similar to looking at a mirror at an angle, but with color at the bottom.
I use rustolem stain from homedepot all the time because its so much cheaper than buying mohawk . Spray it on wipe off . Then shade it and let it dry . The only down fall is you dont want to shade after your sealer with this stain. Spaying stain is the only way to go . Even water base
Want a red toner, use Alkanet Root powder in some BLO. Once it turns a nice blood red (few weeks with occasional shaking) you can mix it in any oil based finish.
Before you start staining. Raise the grain with a solvent, water works. Lightly sand the wood after it is dry, 220. Then tack off, blow off, vaccum off the wood. Buy a stain applicator or use cheese cloth if your manually applying your stain. Back in the day they used used motor oil, rust from steel wool, double boiled linseed, swedish oil and terpentine.There were colorants that were called universal colorents in small tubes or bigger bottles, 500 ml. The paint stores used these for making paint colors. Most, I mean all oil and lacquar paint is compatable with japan dryer which is thought of as the universal dryer. Oil painters call shelac applied with a rag, painters glass. The dryer can be bought to shade lacquer in various colors. It maybe hard to find now though. But, since it is alchol based flashes off and can be finished wthin an hour. Where I am from we could take samples of the wood we were finishing to paint stores specializing in matching stain colors. Sometimes phoning around is the best way to go. Oh, lacquer flashing and nail hole filling. Try. Fill the hole and seal it with shelac. We used mastic, mixed universal colorant in it and made a selection of varing tints for filling. The mastic plant burned down atleast 15 yrs ago. Haha, plumbers puddy, make sure it is linseed based. Lacking that. Water born chauk. Mix then together with a puddy knife.These must be sealed with shelac. Have fun the adventure continues enough for me. God Bless.
Great advice, opened my eyes to the possibilities ahead. Was gifted a bunch of aniline "Mohawk Co." dyes I've never used, but I will now. My most looked forward test will be on Cherry, a wood that blotches and is hard to work around, and then I will have the chore of gifting all those Stains and Gels I've accumulated. If you have any advice for a 72 yr old retired wood worker in a small garage workshop, please feel free to send it. I'm really proud of my Roubo styled workbench where I build split-top
I’ve used eye shadow as a stain colorant - it worked pretty good and had held up well. But - it’s hard to get it to mix into the wipe-on poly. I’m definitely going to try this recipe. It will certainly be easy to mix!
THANKS, ERIK, FOR THE INFORMATIVE DEMO/EXPLANATION. (I'D SUGGEST WEARING YOUR SAFETY GLASSES, WHENEVER WORKING WITH "TOXIC" CHEMICAL LIQUIDS.... (A SLASH IN YOUR EYE WILL DEFINITELY RUIN YOUR DAY....) FYI/IMHO: ... "MURPHY'S LAW" NEVER SLEEPS!!!!!!!!...
The dyes are nice but challenging to apply. The minwax is easy and very forgiving. Minwax early american is still beautiful. So I went down the dye path. But to get that to work, I needed the extender and the reducer for GF dye stain. At $25 each my effort cost $75. I wouldn't bash minwax, it looks nice and it is easy to work with.
I saw you using a mixing container that had the Total Boat logo on it. I've used their penetrating epoxy to restore the wood slats on three park benches for a non profit art center. That stuff is an amazing product for restoring and hardening old wood. It's a very messy job though. I refinished my kitchen table by adding dye to my finish but I just put straight clear finish after that first coat. I wish I had seen this video before doing my table. It looks okay but it would have looked a lot better if I had seen this video first.
Ive been using mixol in an oil finish with great success. My oil finish is cut with d-limonene, for a solvent, might be why? Also, i didnt love how fast it mixed in. So i tried using a dash of isopropyl as a starter with good sucess. Acetone would be a last choice for me due to cost. I may run a test to see if it works that much better. I only use a teeny bit like you, everything is worth testing!
I’m building a 1000 sq ft white oak deck and struggling to find the right finish. I prefer it’s natural mill finish look but understand it will need protection from UV rays and oxidation. Please, if you have any suggestions, recommend me a solution that will last a full a season or two. Can be reapplied without layering or build up of product. And will prevent the natural greying of the wood. Thanks you in advance for any help you can give.
I'm a professional consumer, and I and others like myself would probably never buy a piece that has been stained with the standard basic store bought stuff, because it looks like crap compared to actually taking time to create your own formula that works for the project. So you and all the other 'professional' woodworkers are essentially just cutting your client base in half 👍
@@tiaan_va What an asshole. If only you had been around all my life that I've been making a good living with perfectly happy customers. And, since I already have more work than I can do, I guess the fact that I have cut my client base in half is actually a good thing. We're all very impressed with your ultra-high standards. How wise you must be! 🤣
@@Abmotsad What a simple human you are, no wonder you are happy with just out of the can stain. .."more work than I can do".... have you ever heard of expanding your business?? Usually when an (successful) entrepreneur reaches a point where they have more work than they can do by themselves then they expand their business and delicate redundant and repetitive tasks (like staining for example haha) to other people while you focus on more key components. But as a woodworker who only uses pre-packaged stain you must be very happy living a life of mediocracy so no surprise there 😅
Oil and water can't mix because of the structure of the H2O molecule has electric charges on each end of it, one end positive, the other negative. So when 2 or more H2O molecules come in contact they will stick to each others opposite charged ends (you know, like magnets). Oil on the other hand has no charge and therefore will not bond to water (picture trying to stick a magnet onto a surface that hasn't got Iron in it). Pretty cool stuff. Even the most basic things in life. Look at how water droplets behaves on a flat surface, as soon as they come in contact with another - swoosh they smash together like magnets! Thanks for the video =)
Stain has its place, so "never " is a bit strong...incidentally, brewing up a batch of strong tea and using it as a stain really enhances the natural grain of the wood, (a hint of color will in some cases be incurred depending on what kind of tea is used--black tea, orange pekoe, etc)
A useful thing to keep on hand if you mix your own stains using acetone is a can of lacquer retarder. Sometimes the acetone will boil off so fast that you cannot get an even coat, and you end up with lap lines. If you go 2:1 acetone:retarder, you get a much more forgiving open time.
The previous house owner stripped all the pine doors and left them unfinished. They really need a sealant to keep off finger marks, but the usual polyurethane will turn them orange. What finish should I use to retain the natural wood colour?
...... Thank you.... It was a great video. I don't grasp everything you've explained but it does open up more avenues for me. However, i think for me, at this point in life and my very meager will, I'll have to stick with big box stain for the present. Thank you again though for giving a great presentation.
Thanks for the video Eric great information especially for new woodworkers. Using big box store stain on wood is like staining with a Hershey bar. I fume my projects to bring out some amazing color that is naturally in the wood then I finish with a clear oil base product. Would you be interested in making a video to show how fuming with ammonia is actually done? The wood takes on a color that is hard to believe. If you haven't tried it give it a shot, once you do and see the result you may never pick up a bottle of dye again, I know I didn't.
I was a finisher at a milling shop. We mixed all our stains ourselves. Your spot on
Why is everyone always hating on poplar. It takes stains beautifully and it has grain that is plenty interesting. It just takes extra time and care and preparation to get 'good' results. In fact, I've never seen a single wood species (of the non high oil content variety) that doesn't stain and have beautiful natural grain.
It's so varied on grain and color that, at least from a finish carpenter's prospective, makes it hard to use for clients all over their house. Sometime the grain and color looks fine, but then it can look brown, green and then a more natural wood color, and most clients don't like it. And then finishing it with a sealant or using stain on it brings out the oddness of it. I agree, sometimes it looks fine, but it's just not consistent enough for most people. By the time you pick out all the pieces that make a door casing look good, you've got a pile of "crap wood" twice as large as what you used. Now, if you're making a small piece of furniture or a box or something: cool. But don't trim your house of make cabinets that you want to clear coat or stain!
Just watched a video here last week of someone showing how to take the green out of poplar and making it look like exotic wood. Shockingly beautiful.
I'm gonna say people hate on popular because it takes extra time and effort to get it looking nice.
@@christophercharles9645
Exactly! 35 years of woodworking and building. Not even close to being an expert but that’s one of the reasons why Poplar wood is avoided. From a cost perspective of trying to get it to look good and not waste money on wood (cost perspective) or a bunch of time (cost perspective) I would avoid using poplar wood. I always said that I can do it but it’s about 8-10 times the price and time of building something in an African Blackwood or a Bubinga wood. Most people want a specific color and grain look. They quite often don’t realize that unless they have proper lighting in their house that the room & the wood itself becomes very dark due to the inept lighting.
I don't use it because it's too soft.
I agree with most below: most of us ain't professional woodworkers, and for sure, most of us ain't working for high end clients. Stain from the big box store might not be the best, but it certainly works well enough for the new Pine end table in the basement... Let's not make shit much harder than it needs to be...
Unfortunately, pine is one of the hardest woods to make look good due to its wild graining and the variations of porousness of the wood. It stains very blotchy unless steps are taken to even out the porousness, such as using a pre-stain conditioner. Unfortunately, if you are trying to get the wood quite dark, the pre-stain prevents it from getting real dark. In this case, one trick is to wet the wood first, let it dry, sand it lightly, and then use the pre-stain, followed by the stain and finish. Water always opens up the grain of wood. Caution: if rain or water has been splashed onto the wood, those spots will take stain quite dark.
@@nejdro1or just use a dark stain
Some of us who are not woodworkers at all but are looking to do a couple projects, appreciate knowing the best way to do it so that it looks nice in the end and it doesn't have to be re-done because it didn't turn out very well. I don't even want to do it once, let alone twice.
Biochemist here! Not a PhD, but a MSc! I can't know this for sure, but based on what I'm seeing from the MSDS, I think it's called "Mixol" because it's alcohol-based (generally alcohols end with the suffix "-ol"), and not because it sounds like "mix-all". And alcohols would mix well with other alcohols, and usually with water as well. Makes sense that it would not mix with oils or anything hydrophobic.
And THAT'S why you make friends with smart people 😂 It's also a German product so I know the name is lost in translation a little bit. Good to know though. I wonder then why it mixes well with acetone?
@@ENCurtis acetone is in the family of ketones, which is what we call hydrocarbons that have a double-bonded oxygen atom. The smaller a ketone molecule is, the more it is soluble in water. The larger a ketone is, the less soluble it is in water and the more it will mix with oil. Since acetone is the simplest and smallest ketone, having only one carbon atom on each "chain", it's the ketone which mixes best with water.
But the "reason why", more to the point, is that the oxygen atom tends to pull electrons more towards itself than the carbon atom. So the electron cloud will be tilted away from the carbon (making a partial positive charge) and towards the electron (making a partial negative charge). Since the molecule has a partial charge (ie. an electric charge "polarity") which depends on what angle you're interacting with it, it will happily make "hydrogen bonds" with water. The molecules of both types will attract each other, which is what it means for two substances to mix well together.
It also looks, from looking at the German wiki page for "Alkohole", that they also follow the same IUPAC chemical nomenclature. I'm not a German speaker, so I can't be sure there aren't funny language things, but it looks like it works similarly as in English and French.
Ooh, chemist. Nice. What is the deal with isocyanates and wipe on poly. Should we be worried?
Interesting take on "toner" use. I'm retired, owned a 20 man shop making commercial work. Offices, medical, retail, restoration. Avoided kitchens. Whatever was specified by the designer is what we tried to provide. High $$ conference rooms were typically paneled with sequence matched veneer panels that were custom laid up for the job. Since a given log will only yield so many prefect pieces of veneer, the finishing process needed to make the variations minimally apparent. That's where toning came in. (Finishes came in 55 gallon drums and were pumped to pressure feed HVLP guns.) We generally started with a wash coat of sealer. That prevented some of the color variations that are due to differing absorption of the finishes due to grain orientation. Many of the colorants used were Sherwin Wms Universal colorants (ultra fine ground pigments that acted almost like a dye, - red, green orange, yellow, browns, black...) Many dyes tend to fade so we avoided them if possible. The first color coat was mixed with a stain base (no color of its own) and a colorant. A seal coat of the finish was applied. At that point the finisher could compare the approved finish sample to the work. A common issue was sapwood looking different. The next operation was using a small gravity feed HVLP cup gun or an airbrush plus hand held shields, the colors were matched in the lighter areas to the main body. If there were little dark spots those were colored in with colored pencils made for the purpose or a fine artist brush. Two top coats with a light sanding between. The panels were fully dried and stacked in sequential order for shipping. The panels had labeled backs that showed the sequence # and location of each panel on a room diagram. All the moldings had to match also. I should note that the finishing products we used came though the industrial divisions of the suppliers and many of them are not available @ retail.
We also used some waterborne finishes. They require different skills but can be excellent. Grain filling is another technique that can enhance open grained wood.
Be careful, use protective gear, use a spray booth if at all possible, store finishes in a fire protection cabinet. Keep, up to date, fire extinguishers near exits. If you are commercially finishing use the free technical services of the suppliers.
You can also use water based colour to stain wood and apply an oil finish afterwards. Guitars makers do this all the time, it's just a two step process. Stain, sand, stain again, burnish wait 24hs and apply the top coat (oil or water based)
Yes indeed! And it's obviously a time tested method 👍
I'm really glad you covered this topic! As someone that does finish work for a living, it can get deflating trying to explain to clients why it costs so much to do compared to a can of stain from the big box stores. Especially if they have an exact tone or interior design concept they want.
Glad you didn't have any major complaints about this one then! 😂
@@ENCurtis You know just enough about this to make you dangerous lol.
Man I couldn’t agree more!!!
It costs me around 20 bucks a gallon to make a base for my stain devoid of color. I could make it cheaper if I didn't care for my health.
My stain smells good! Like walking into an orange Grove.
The bottles of mixol are $5.80. While I don't know exactly how much goes in a gallon. I would think less than a bottle, surely less than 2.
So with color I would guesstimate about $26 dollars in cost. Flip that to the customer for 50 even. I'm 7 dollars more than Varathane for a high quality gallon of custom made stain.
This is based off slight bulk buying on 1 ingredient in 4 gallon allotments. Technically still all retail pricing though.
I'm still kind of new to finishing. Mixing colors is the hardest part of all of it. If I were bidding this stuff for custom finishing. I would charge separately to create thier finish, then sell them their finish, then install it if they chose.
How much do you think varathane would charge for a 1 off custom color? 5,000? 10,000? Would it even look good?
If it takes me 5 hours to figure out a custom color. That's $200 in labor. That's where the money sink is in custom color matching. That's where skill and fine tuning a process can save the homeowner loads of money.
Through a body of knowledge built over time through decades of making samples, one can reach a point they most likley have options fairly close to what people want, allowing us installers to expedite the color matching process as well as minimize it.
@@brandonhoffman4712 What do you mix with the Mixol that makes it smell nice like an orange grove? Thx
Great video. Please cover the the safety issues with acetone! I grew up in a fiberglass factory and learned two things: 1) Acetone burns with a nearly invisible flame, and 2) Acetone is a powerful explosive. So no sources of ignition while working with acetone.
I think you just covered the safety issues with acetone , basically "watch out , it is very flammable"
It is bad for the liver also.
@@ydom706 well ya , if you drink it !!!! Just kidding , I know what you meant ..... "don't breathe the fumes either"
Growing up in a fiberglass factory must have been so cool!
I'm making a thing and this is exactly the info I needed. _raises coffee cup and nods_
*_tips cap and walks away slowly_
*jiggles out the last drops and zips up
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on colorants with us. Here's a few comments if I may: 1) you most certainly can topcoat a waterbased stain or dye colored piece with solvent-based topcoats, so let's clarify that point right away. Simply ensure you allow the time necessary for the colorant mixture (dye or stain) to fully cure before laying on the topcoat. 2) If you ever need to dulicate a finish, you'll wish that you had measured the individual elements (in your example, bix box paint, mineral spirits and oil-based poly, which is known in the industry as the topcoat). 3) here's a trick to help highlighting open pored woods: to highlight the open pores of woods such as the oak you cited in your example, pro finishers will first dye the entire piece with whatever colour they wish the background (i.e., the less porous wood areas) to finish off at, then lock that in with a light wash coat of thinned topcoat, followed by the dye they wish the open pore areas to be - which in most cases is a very contrasting colour. Then all of this is topcoated. 4) one important difference between analine dye and pigmented stain is the effect UV rays have on the two: the analine dye will rapidly degrade its tone unless you topcoat it with a highly-UV protecting product. Choose carefully, as not all topcoats will provide the required protection needed. 5
I hope this all helps.
agreed
i was wondering what happened to the advice that water based stain can mostly take an oily top coat after it dries. the water is the problem, and it would be a pretty rare dry pigment that had a virulent disagreement with a non-polar top coat. very good post thanks. imo seems like a losing game trying to protect fugitive dyes where there's high UV exposure. UV blocking clear coat is spendy last i checked and there are lots of stable colorants. for pigment nerds, the Handprint website is obsessively interested in lightfast artist pigments
Bingo. And as you obviously know, there are even more approaches to use with dyes and topcoats, toners, etc. this guy might want to stay away from finish videos and stick with what he knows best.
Has a lifelong woodworker I have finished many many projects and I've always felt this was a skill that I was weakest in. Your explanation of dyes , toners and stains was excellent. I have experimented with Adeline Dye with some success and your video added to that knowledge base. thank you !!
I played around with dyes and stains a lot last year to no avail. This video was more (and better) info than I found in months of searching. Thank you, this video has been a ton of help!
So far, in my short time in my woodworking hobby, this is the most informative video I've found. Very worthwhile, even in the comments.
I am the dumbest person in the room.
And you just taught me some very valuable lessons. I learned a lot!
Thank you Eric. I love your channel.
I started testing mixol pigments based off online reviews. I want to test transtint too, but it's a bit more expensive (bigger bottles).
It has been a game changer so far!
A big part of it for me too has been developing my base. My next step is to pull the oil out of my base, replacing it with ethanol and water. This should allow me to do glue ups of contrasting stained pieces.
Right now I'm working on stuff in the rustic farm style. I'm staining oak to a walnut color, and doing a whitewash stain to contrast it.
I'm also doing similar stuff in natural maple, with a weathered greywash to contrast it.
Oh ya forgot to mention. My stain smells like oranges too!
It's also quite healthy, being made from hospital ingredients (isopropyl 99%), food safe orange oil solvent (d-limonene), and water!
The wood shop never smelled so good! Oranges, cedar, pine, and oak!
I may have you beat. I watched some vids where they stripped & bleached mahogany but I think used polyacrylic on top. Looked pretty, but I'm afraid to do anything now with the mahogany table bleached out to a light amber/yellow tone and still have china cabinet and chairs?! If it's ok with you, I'd like to take 1st place for dummy..... not that you are, of course.
I’ve finished a couple of guitar bodies. Water based brown or black dye goes on first, then I sand it back so that the “fur” with the dye gets removed. That really pops the grain. Then alcohol dyes to get whatever look I’m going for. Finally a subtle toner gives the finish depth. It also gives me an opportunity to tweak the final color of the finish.
Use test panels and go through your entire planned finish process on each test sample. Measure and take notes. Use the color wheel to guide you in adjusting dyes to “get the red right.” (I don’t know why but getting red right on wood is a bear.)
I had completely forgotten that guitar finishers use toners to get that deep startbust look. That's a great point. Thanks,
Startburst? It's called sunburst. Stringed instrument makers employ a whole range of techniques to get the effect they want. A violin is almost white before it's finished. The terms used seem to have changed over the last fifty years. What's now called dye used to be called stain. Stain didn't used to be a coloured finish, it was just something to colour the wood before a clear finish coat was applied. @@ENCurtis
I love using dyes, but I also have often used a coat of yellow or deep amber shellac as a toner and/or as a way to then be able to apply further toner or stain without it penetrating into the open pores of the wood. As a former fine arts student and designer, agree the fundamentals of colour theory are particularly helpful when you start mixing up your own tints.
This was an excellent tutorial, thanks so much for this detailed information and demonstration.
Eric, thanks very much for this intro into stains, dyes and toners. You've lifted the curtain and given me a good opening to start experimenting.
- bonus for anyone interested: I used OSB to cover the walls of my basement shop, because it's cheap and interesting looking. My cabinet tops are all shellacked MDF (Zinsser/amber) and I tried that on the OSB. Wow! They complement the MDF and the effect is quite warm and pleasing. Cheap solution.
That's really interesting! Thanks for sharing. And glad you enjoyed this one!
I can see this being useful to match an existing antique or something, but 9 times out of 10 for new work, the pre-mixed stain is going to be easier, more consistent, and repeatable.
A small scale really helps in color consistancy. If you measure out your additives you can replicate the color as needed. I have found that even off the shelf stains can have a pretty good amount of variation in color from can to can.
I recently built and installed a peninsula cabinet as an addition to a customer's existing kitchen. They wanted it to match their 10 year old stained maple cabinets, and being the yes-man that I am, I obliged. I made a toner with the information I learned from this video, and it was a remarkable success. I learned a ton, and can't thank you enough! I am sure I will use these techniques for years to come, and probably never buy premixed stain again.
I watched the other video about the 5 youtube tips that professionals hate today and stain was the only one I used. So of course I had to watch this video. I done the toner method before on a guitar I was making. Everything else, I usually use stains. After watching this, I still plan on using stains. The reason is simple. I am a hobbyist and price is an issue. I use reclaimed wood or free wood I can get locally. The same goes for stains. Most of the stains I have I got for free. I do apply a finish over my stains because I want to preserve the color and finishes add to the richness of the wood. Stains are not accurate in the color but I can reapply if I want it darker. Because it is preexisting, I don't have to try to make my own color or try to match a previous batch. It is just easier. However, I will use what I learned here. I am always striving to learn more.
Reclaimed wood is usually the best wood to use. New wood has not yet done most of what it will do in its early lifetime. Old wood is the best, because it has already done most of what it will do. Knowing the types of wood can help also, and so can knowing what the best wood to use is for what you wish to make. Glad to see you use reclaimed wood.
I'm just an amateur woodworker. I've done a couple of things to my projects in the past.
The first was when we renovated our kitchen I wanted to have the baseboards and window casings match the cabinets. So I went to the manufacturer of the cabinets and purchased a can of the stain they used for the cabinets.
The second thing I've done when I want to match a stain to something existing is I've gone to a local paint and stain store that custom mixes stains. I give them the piece that I want to match and a piece of the bare wood and they mix it up for me.
I’ve been a cabinet and furniture maker for years. I have always use Minwax oil based stains, but wow you have opened my eyes to want to try this. Thank you for this video. I’m a fairly new subscriber to your channel and with each video, I am excited that I subscribed. I love your no bs delivery approach to every video you do
I'm not a rocket surgeon but I can see already this is a superior approach to attaining proper wood finishing.
I like your name. It makes me want to snap my fingers and tap my toes 😊
It’s not. All you have to do is learn how to finish wood properly and you can take the cheapest store bought stain out there and make your project look better than anything this weirdo gatekeeper of “pro woodworkers” can make.
As an artist who is also a woodworker hearing that I can use oil paint to make any colour, exactly the shade I desire makes my heart sing. I have extensive experience with dyeing silk fabric and threads as well and thought this was the way to go. I wish I knew this when I was renovating my house and needed to match the colour of existing stained wood. I got close enough, but it has always bugged me that I couldn't get exactly what I was after. I'll be trying these techniques out on two new sets of doors that I need to make.
This reminds me of what I learned in college painting classes, creating glazes in multiple layers. Then using this method to either diffuse a focal point or add additional depth that an opaque layer could not create. Thank you for the inspiration.
Aniline dye has been my go to for decades. So versatile and more colours than you will ever need. One of the things I really love about Aniline is you can get it in either water or solvent soluable form. I personally prefer the solvent soluable as it works really well with Citrene Turpene or Pure Gum Terpene. It is nice walking into the shop and having it smell like an Orange Grove or Eucalyptus Forest and not a chemical factory.
I didn't know about solvent soluble formulas. Good to know!
@@ENCurtis I started experimenting with the WD Lockwood powdered dyes last year. I went with water and alcohol-or-water based ones since I thought I would mostly be using them with shellac. I then spent a lot of time evaporating alcohol out so I could replace it with water because the alcohol evaporates so fast it gets patchy (apparently it's great if you apply with HVLP sprayer). I've mostly moved on to oil/poly type finishes so might have to pick up a few of their oil-based ones. The colors themselves are excellent, and quite easy to mix (albeit a bit messy).
Been using WD Lockwood dyes since the early 2000s, when I learned about them from a member on WoodWeb. They are incredibly transparent, which makes them amazing to work with. They're the only dyes that I know of that don't lead to splotchy results on some difficult woods to stain. I once stained a hard maple floor in my house to a charcoal gray, and there was zero splotchiness in the outcome. It's almost as if the wood grows in that color considering how even it penetrates, and dries. Also it's the only stain that on oak doesn't leave that lurid darkening of the open grain. I will only heed a word of caution, if you use water-based polys or lacquers, they often dissolve the dye back into solution. So it's advisable in a finishing schedule to alternate between water-based product and an oil-based one to seal the color. They're a great company in NYC, and a super small business which I love to support.
What brands solvent soluble dyes are you using ? It seems a must in recent 15-20 years , at least here in NY you simply CAN'T get good stains ,you have to make your own, just turned 60 & want to finally restore all the antique stuff I accumulated all my life, just for this time. & now I can't. . . But I can, screw you NY lawmakers I'll order it if they won let me buy it in a store . any solvent mixes you recommend, I think the old radios and victrolas used a shellac and lacquer mix
First of all, love your work. One question: What is in your finish mason jar? You just all it your finish but what is that liquid? Thanks.
Agree!
Kinda looks like Waterlox!
Just to mention one other choice; If you have crappy wood, you can seal it with shellac or very thin varnish, and then use the toner over the sealed surface. That way you avoid any blotching that often occurs with pine or poplar or certain other woods. A lot of furniture is finished this way and it's fine. Try it. It's what the pros do.
Glad you felt comfortable enough to test it out.
Just the casual woodworking DIY'er here so I don't need anywhere near this level of technique. Big box stains/finishes are just fine with me. But, I do love to learn and this is great content in that regard...so thank you. 👍
I agree 🎉
I have to say nice to see you using paint. That is my biggest stain i use due to the fact that i can get a larger variety of colors. And i know you showed oil based paint, but you can use water based also
There is a channel John's Furniture Repair. She restores old furniture for clients and her color matching for old colors is pretty amazing. She doesn't specifically teach staining but you can pick up some things.
That's an excellent resource. What professional finishers do is nothing short of alchemy in my opinion.
Trina (sp?) is a master of "toning" - she usually uses spray toners but she has one heck of an eye for making things match and look good. Between Tom Johnson and "John's Furniture" I've learned a lot. Personally - I hate finishing and am therefore not meticulous or patient enough, but just learning that color does not have to go on first - it can be added to finished 'film' coats (toner.. "Toning") was a game-changer for me. And it's great that it's reversible.
Blessings, Eric; thanks for explaining that. It was helpful. Years ago, an old-timer told me about Van Dyke Crystals to restain an old oak chest of draws I was restoring at the time. It was useful. When I had finished, you couldn't tell the old finish from the new. Apparently, it's what the old English carpenters used to stain oak. Cheers from Western Australia.
Haven't heard of em. I'll have to check it out! Thanks.
Great video! Dyes are actually transparent, hence the name "transtint" while a pigment blocks light. So the only reason a dye solution would "soak in" better is the vehicle or base that its in allows that. The clarity comes from the transparency of the color used.
Pigments are also insoluble in the solvent they're in, so they sit on the surface of the wood, while dyes are dissolved, so they soak into the wood. When something dissolves in a solvent, it breaks up into individual molecules, which are so small they soak easily into wood. At the microscopic level, pigment is like rocks, while dye is like colored liquid.
I like to use Angelus leather dyes and mix the colors to get what I want. I've done a few guitars this way and it's been my go-to.
But honestly, my favorite finish is to use the Sugi-Ban method of burning and sanding the wood, and then seal with an oil or shellac. No stains or dyes and it's super durable.
Good video! I'm not a fan of Poly as a finish but use dyes quite a bit. An additional nice thing about dye is that you can color wood before gluing, thus avoiding any issue of glue residue affecting the "color." Staining before gluing prevents a strong glue bond but alcohol or water based dye does not affect the glue's ability to penetrate the wood fibers.
There are oil soluble aniline dyes available in the US.
You can buy many shades of shellac and further dye shellac with Transtint.
And Rubio makes water-based stains that are compatible with hard wax finishes like Rubio Monocoat (which doesn’t work with other stains or dyes.
Lots of options!
Good info!
This explanation was awesome. It will make listening to other finishing videos more understandable.
Red mahogany or golden oak are the only 2 that I would use at big box stores. I use them on the exact wood species and the results are pretty good.
Given the choice, I prefer gum turpintine over mineral spirits because turpentine is a very slight drier, but if I'm in a rush, I add a drop or three of japan drier.
For tinting oil based finishes, I use student grade artists oil paints. With tubes of alizarin crimson, phthalo blue, burnt umber, raw siena, and black you can get most any wood tone you might need. The effect is more like a toner than a strain or dye.
Curtis, I seriously don’t understand why you don’t have a million subscribers bro! Fantastic video man! Can’t wait to meet you at WBC!
Thanks brother! And likewise!
Hi Eric. This video just popped up on my you tube feed so I had to check it out. I’m a out of the can kinda guy but you know it was one of the most informative videos I’ve watched. Thank you. I’ll have to check with my big box stores up here in Toronto Canada
If the samples you to use are agreed upon, it works just fine. Grain seal is important though. It helps keeps the cost down on some larger pieces using ready-made. . I always makes sample per species chosen if I cannot convince them to not stain. I’ll add a coat of shellac with toner if needed. Another thing I do is add more “binder” the stain itself. I’ll do 1/3 additional binder (blo) to the stain color blend.
Toner is definitely what I use most! Ive been worling in a finishing shop for 6 years now and did custom furniture for 10 years before that.
Stain is pigment in suspension. Dye is pigment in solution.
I am learning, what do you mean by suspension? thankyou for your response in advance.
@@Gamers_of_Oz not sure if you got your answer…stains from the big box stores are suspensions. Chunks of a solid media, like crushed stone, settle to the bottom and never dissolve. The microscopic bits of stone lay on top of the wood. Stirring them makes the media temporarily suspend in the solvent.
@@dian3145 Ah thanks for the reply I did not know that.
You can use dewaxed shilac flakes mix with denatured alcohol then apply on the poplar wood . Let dry sand with 320 grit then apply what ever stain , dye what ever then you make that look like a 15 $ board ft wood
If you are doing large surfaces like floors you had best measure if you want matching results.
Or color matching pieces
From the video, this is what I got:
Stain is pigment in finish, that sits on the surface of the wood.
Dye is pigment in solvent. The solvent evaporates out of the wood leaving the wood coloured but unfinished.
Toner is pigment in finish, that sits on the surface of the wood.
But that would make stain and toner the same thing. The only difference I can see between stain and toner is that stain is applied directly to the wood and toner is applied on top of another finish.
I like your laid-back style.
I just by General Finishes dyes, stains and top coats - all in water based formulas. Easy peasy. No hassle. But thanks for trying with your video.
Damn…good video. I have to admit, I haven’t ever used dyes. I’ve had a a bottle of trans tint in my cart for a while and haven’t pulled the plug. I now have the confidence to try it out. Thanks brother.
Totally worth diving into. They're a game changer in my opinion.
If I need to color wood, I usually use ‘Fiebig’s Leather dye’ It’s alcohol based and you can mix it, for end-finish i use a wax based finish - Pipemakers using leather dye too for tobacco pipes
My preference in finishes is to use straight polyurethane varnishes. Wipe on does best, but I do it with two types: Satin finish leaves a dull sheen once it cures, and needs no sanding if you follow the first coat before it is fully cured. Add up to three more coats of the satin finish in the same way, allowing the cure to almost completely cure but not quite fully. The instruction on the container it comes in tells you the time it takes to fully cure, depending on weather conditions. Now for the next coat, switch to Glossy finish. Allow to cure fully. Use a very fine grit sandpaper to lightly sand the entire surface. Wipe the dust off with a damp cloth. Add another coat of the Glossy finish, and allow to cure fully. sand with the same grit sandpaper, and wipe off the dust with your damp cloth. App your last coat of Glossy finish, and allow to cure fully. You should have a finished product that has depth in its beauty.
When finishing wood, I like to use wood that has character. I never put an opaque finish like paint on wood that has character. I want the wood to sell itself to the customer, so I make sure that the character of it pops.
Maybe you could do a video concerning this method I outlined here! Just a suggestion.
What I like about using toners is you can use them to offset certain wood tones. For example, a lot of people don't like how orange some woods are. If you created a toner with a drop of blue or green TransTint, it will neutralize the orange and make it visually more brown. Just be careful on the amount you use because you can use too much.
I like to add a color glaze. VanDyke Brown will give you a nice layer of "dirt". Let it build up in the corners and lower areas. Clean it off the flats and you have added 100 years of age to your piece. (You can tweak the color using raw or/and burnt umber) (the same effect can be achieved with wax)
I usually do my colors in layers. I start with dye and then stain over. (Sometimes I mix colors. Other times they are applied as highlights in different layers. You are right about "store bought" stains.) finish, glaze, finish, I shy away from toner. It can cause the finish to be muddy. Don't be afraid to sand through a color layer for effect. Sometimes I use wax as a final layer. Not usually clear, but color highlights. Here and there where it is needed.
All I know is matching stains takes way too long but it’s a necessary process to achieve a result a customer is looking for. I’ll watch this several times until I can absorb your information. Obviously you understand what you are doing I’m just a little slower at understanding but I want to so thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I didn’t mean to be critical of you for my inability to get all this first go around. I should have applied what I just learned yesterday. Stimulus/pause/ reaction. I could have arranged my comment more accurately. I’m sorry for my previous comment.
The problem with adding colorant to the varnish, or whatever protectorant clear coat, is that the color does not penetrate way into the fiber of the wood. If the finish piece is then scratched, the bare wood shows immediately. Also, if it is on a wear surface, such as a table top or floor, the color lessens as the finish coat wears thin!
I use both methods depending on project size… premixed is helpful for small quick projects
I love that coffee mug so much
I have been a woodworker for 60 years. I used to use stains more often, but now hardly ever. On the rare occasion I want a specific look, (like my wife wanted a very dark black on a particular part of a desk carcass I used a wood that stained well for that part with not too much grain showing, (Happened to use basswood). I didn't want the stain on the drawer fronts to transfer to the sides, (cherry, which can be blotchy when stained). Worked out well, but it was a bit of a PIA. I'm not against a bit of tint, just that doing a mediocre job is terrible. Stain is fine for outdoor wood (fences) where you want the protection of TiO2, but don't want to paint.
Eric this in one of your best video. Just one thing: I don’t understand how you create your finish inside the jar. What liquid you used?
Excellent video, Eric. Great information will be using one of these techniques. Enjoy your week!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for the tutorial…I learned lots
Great video; good info....and I see Eric Sloane behind you. That book and A Reverence for Wood got me interested in woodworking. Stay well.
I just finished a project used trans tint always decent results with stain but the liquid die night and day difference really like and results with dye I seem to really like tongue oil better than polyurethane. Seems like it has better results to me personally, a bunch of coats tongue oil seems to look better and easier than even wipe on poly to my experience?
Excellent review of your finishing methods. I like the dark 'stain-wash' example. From my (long past) model railroading years, I also make stain starting with dry artists pigment powders. Lots of flexibility too. Good stuff. Thanks.
I'm in a poorly ventilated basement so I use a lot of rust stain, coffee stain and wine stain. I've also been playing around with grape and blueberry juice stains.
As a fairly new woodworker I enjoy how to and informational videos. Thank you
The other thing about oil paints in tubes from art supply stores is that the pigment quality is superior to furniture-grade stuff. The toner application's depth of color is like glazing in oil painting. Thin, transparent layers are built up and there's an effect similar to looking at a mirror at an angle, but with color at the bottom.
I like using Transtint with clear lacquer. I love how fast lacquer dries and sprays really well.
I use rustolem stain from homedepot all the time because its so much cheaper than buying mohawk . Spray it on wipe off . Then shade it and let it dry . The only down fall is you dont want to shade after your sealer with this stain. Spaying stain is the only way to go . Even water base
Want a red toner, use Alkanet Root powder in some BLO. Once it turns a nice blood red (few weeks with occasional shaking) you can mix it in any oil based finish.
Before you start staining. Raise the grain with a solvent, water works. Lightly sand the wood after it is dry, 220. Then tack off, blow off, vaccum off the wood. Buy a stain applicator or use cheese cloth if your manually applying your stain. Back in the day they used used motor oil, rust from steel wool, double boiled linseed, swedish oil and terpentine.There were colorants that were called universal colorents in small tubes or bigger bottles, 500 ml. The paint stores used these for making paint colors. Most, I mean all oil and lacquar paint is compatable with japan dryer which is thought of as the universal dryer. Oil painters call shelac applied with a rag, painters glass. The dryer can be bought to shade lacquer in various colors. It maybe hard to find now though. But, since it is alchol based flashes off and can be finished wthin an hour. Where I am from we could take samples of the wood we were finishing to paint stores specializing in matching stain colors. Sometimes phoning around is the best way to go. Oh, lacquer flashing and nail hole filling. Try. Fill the hole and seal it with shelac. We used mastic, mixed universal colorant in it and made a selection of varing tints for filling. The mastic plant burned down atleast 15 yrs ago. Haha, plumbers puddy, make sure it is linseed based. Lacking that. Water born chauk. Mix then together with a puddy knife.These must be sealed with shelac. Have fun the adventure continues enough for me. God Bless.
Great advice, opened my eyes to the possibilities ahead. Was gifted a bunch of aniline "Mohawk Co." dyes I've never used, but I will now. My most looked forward test will be on Cherry, a wood that blotches and is hard to work around, and then I will have the chore of gifting all those Stains and Gels I've accumulated. If you have any advice for a 72 yr old retired wood worker in a small garage workshop, please feel free to send it. I'm really proud of my Roubo styled workbench where I build split-top
I’ve used eye shadow as a stain colorant - it worked pretty good and had held up well. But - it’s hard to get it to mix into the wipe-on poly.
I’m definitely going to try this recipe. It will certainly be easy to mix!
THANKS, ERIK, FOR THE INFORMATIVE DEMO/EXPLANATION. (I'D SUGGEST WEARING YOUR SAFETY GLASSES, WHENEVER WORKING WITH "TOXIC" CHEMICAL LIQUIDS.... (A SLASH IN YOUR EYE WILL DEFINITELY RUIN YOUR DAY....) FYI/IMHO: ... "MURPHY'S LAW" NEVER SLEEPS!!!!!!!!...
The dyes are nice but challenging to apply. The minwax is easy and very forgiving. Minwax early american is still beautiful. So I went down the dye path. But to get that to work, I needed the extender and the reducer for GF dye stain. At $25 each my effort cost $75. I wouldn't bash minwax, it looks nice and it is easy to work with.
As always I appreciate the coffee shout out. Thank you
One of the most informative videos you've made..... very practical with approachable strategies! Well done, Erik.... thanks!!
The "new" saw looks sweet behind you! After you video unveiling it, I am glad it found a nice home in your cabinet
I saw you using a mixing container that had the Total Boat logo on it. I've used their penetrating epoxy to restore the wood slats on three park benches for a non profit art center. That stuff is an amazing product for restoring and hardening old wood. It's a very messy job though.
I refinished my kitchen table by adding dye to my finish but I just put straight clear finish after that first coat. I wish I had seen this video before doing my table. It looks okay but it would have looked a lot better if I had seen this video first.
Ive been using mixol in an oil finish with great success.
My oil finish is cut with d-limonene, for a solvent, might be why?
Also, i didnt love how fast it mixed in. So i tried using a dash of isopropyl as a starter with good sucess.
Acetone would be a last choice for me due to cost. I may run a test to see if it works that much better. I only use a teeny bit like you, everything is worth testing!
I’m building a 1000 sq ft white oak deck and struggling to find the right finish. I prefer it’s natural mill finish look but understand it will need protection from UV rays and oxidation. Please, if you have any suggestions, recommend me a solution that will last a full a season or two. Can be reapplied without layering or build up of product. And will prevent the natural greying of the wood. Thanks you in advance for any help you can give.
This was so informative Erik, thanks man!
Thank you, I am going to go play with mixing up some finishes, see what kind of trouble I can get into! 😊
I'm a professional wood worker. I use that kind of stain all the time. I can name a dozen others who use that kind of stain, as well.
I'm a professional consumer, and I and others like myself would probably never buy a piece that has been stained with the standard basic store bought stuff, because it looks like crap compared to actually taking time to create your own formula that works for the project. So you and all the other 'professional' woodworkers are essentially just cutting your client base in half 👍
@@tiaan_va
What an asshole. If only you had been around all my life that I've been making a good living with perfectly happy customers.
And, since I already have more work than I can do, I guess the fact that I have cut my client base in half is actually a good thing.
We're all very impressed with your ultra-high standards. How wise you must be! 🤣
@@Abmotsad What a simple human you are, no wonder you are happy with just out of the can stain. .."more work than I can do".... have you ever heard of expanding your business?? Usually when an (successful) entrepreneur reaches a point where they have more work than they can do by themselves then they expand their business and delicate redundant and repetitive tasks (like staining for example haha) to other people while you focus on more key components. But as a woodworker who only uses pre-packaged stain you must be very happy living a life of mediocracy so no surprise there 😅
@tiaan_va Bullshit. Stain looks like crap on pine. On any hardwood, you wouldn’t know the difference.
@@silverbackag9790 you should consider scheduling an appointment at the optometrist haha
Oil and water can't mix because of the structure of the H2O molecule has electric charges on each end of it, one end positive, the other negative. So when 2 or more H2O molecules come in contact they will stick to each others opposite charged ends (you know, like magnets). Oil on the other hand has no charge and therefore will not bond to water (picture trying to stick a magnet onto a surface that hasn't got Iron in it).
Pretty cool stuff. Even the most basic things in life. Look at how water droplets behaves on a flat surface, as soon as they come in contact with another - swoosh they smash together like magnets!
Thanks for the video =)
Stain has its place, so "never " is a bit strong...incidentally, brewing up a batch of strong tea and using it as a stain really enhances the natural grain of the wood, (a hint of color will in some cases be incurred depending on what kind of tea is used--black tea, orange pekoe, etc)
I just picked up some Transtint from a Rockler based on the employees recommendation. Let's see if I messed up or if the Curtis approves of it.
And yes I have my coffee with me too!
I never would have thought to mix oil paint as the pigment into wipe on poly. It makes so much sense though.
A little trick I learned from my old buddy Frank. One of the finest finishers in Philadelphia.
And that will be going into my saved folder to reference when I need it. Thank you again for covering something I knew nothing about.
Great Video, I have a much better understanding of dyes and stains now!!
A useful thing to keep on hand if you mix your own stains using acetone is a can of lacquer retarder. Sometimes the acetone will boil off so fast that you cannot get an even coat, and you end up with lap lines. If you go 2:1 acetone:retarder, you get a much more forgiving open time.
How long does it take for the smell to leave the room after you stain a whole set of cabinets with oil-based stain?
Hey, I just used golden oak stain for a set of Dutch doors I made for a daycare
The previous house owner stripped all the pine doors and left them unfinished. They really need a sealant to keep off finger marks, but the usual polyurethane will turn them orange. What finish should I use to retain the natural wood colour?
I just needed this! I want to darken my oak project, but I sincerely dislike stain. So at the perfect time 😀 Thanks mate!
It’s not only the video, but it’s also the chat that comes out. The rest of the story. 😊
...... Thank you....
It was a great video. I don't grasp everything you've explained but it does open up more avenues for me. However, i think for me, at this point in life and my very meager will, I'll have to stick with big box stain for the present. Thank you again though for giving a great presentation.
Making a toner, you used your wood finisher in a jar, but what is the wood finisher?
Thanks for the video Eric great information especially for new woodworkers. Using big box store stain on wood is like staining with a Hershey bar. I fume my projects to bring out some amazing color that is naturally in the wood then I finish with a clear oil base product. Would you be interested in making a video to show how fuming with ammonia is actually done? The wood takes on a color that is hard to believe. If you haven't tried it give it a shot, once you do and see the result you may never pick up a bottle of dye again, I know I didn't.