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Same here. My #1 priority when buying screws is what type of driver they need. If I'm restoring old furniture I look for slot screws. Other than that I think I like Robertson the best with torx second. I like Robertson because the screw stays on the bit better.
Last year I was running Phillips screws and they didn't want to start. I had to run the drill with my left hand and of course I was holding the work piece with my right hand. Well me being RIGHT HANDED, it only took about 10 seconds before the bit jumped out of the screw and it went almost all the way through my right bird finger. (yes, I am from the south.) Now I use anything else BUT a Phillips when it is an awkward position.
6 years ago, I used 3 inch exterior Spax screws to build some raised garden beds because I didn't want to make a bunch of pilot holes. This past spring I had to rebuild those same beds because the wood had rotted out and I literally used the exact same Spax screws from the original beds minus a couple. Just this week I began using some GRK structural screws to shore up a leaning garage and man, do they lock in there! I also can never recall any crazy splitting using either Spax or GRK. Very impressed with both!
Agree. I used coated SPAX lags with the wide flat head and T30 driver to build a lot of equipment for an obstacle course where equipment is near the sea. That equipment had thousands of people climbing over it over the years with never a loose board or corrosion. Any time I did a mod I found them in great shape. With slim German steel shafts and wide spiral flutes they were awesome.
The gold came at the very end: drill a pilot hole, countersink the head in advance, and use a driver with a clutch you can set to the right limit. Also, remember that if the thread engages both pieces, this can actually prevent the joint from closing perfectly. Drywall screws are particularly bad in this regard, because the thread runs almost all the way to the head. If you really want to pull both pieces tightly together, drill the pilot hole in the upper one to the OD of the screw thread, and the ID for the pilot hole in the piece underneath. This allows the screw to turn freely as it goes in and draws the lower piece up as tight as can be. This method, though more time consuming, is virtually essential if you're building something that needs to be taken apart one or more times before final assembly.
I agree. I always drill a pilot hole, regardless of the type of screw. Incidentally, you mentioned the ID of the screw for the piece underneath. The term for that size is the Root Diameter; that’s the size of the “shaft” defined by the bottom of the threads. Doing two different hole sizes means… Switching bits back and forth; Having 2 drills (or 3, of you include a 9:34 countersink); Using a combination drill bit / countersink. I’ve had much success using GRK.
I don't bother drilling two different sizes of hole. Drill the boards, then send the screw through. If it separates the boards, back the screw out until they come back together and send it again. Works every time.
It was interesting to see how much engineering can go into something as seemly benign as a screw though. When time = money, get the better screws for sure.
A great video. I am a landlord who bit by bit has come of age as a handyman and maintenance guy. I have done more than my fair share of extemporizing and making it work just by using what I had in the truck rather than what it right for the job. About time I started thinking more clearly about what I was doing rather than the simple, quick fix. This really helped, particularly in the way you went into the design details. Many thanks.,
It's worth noting that drywall screws are hardened. That's a big factor in their suitability for structural use. Harder screws are also more brittle so they'll break in situations where softer screws will flex or bend. That brittleness is why so many of them snapped off during the tests, and an impact driver would compound the problem.
The type of steel used in all of these mass produced screws (and nails) is a major factor in the current time. Built various sheds and buildings around my property, and the best fasteners are important. Been driving nails since i was kid, 10 and16 penny nails predominantly, but hadn't done a lot of construction in the last couple of decades in my professional engineering career. Bought a shed kit and it came with 6 boxes of 2 inch and 3 inch Grip-Rite nails, no problem said I. Then when trying to drive these Chinese nails into white pine, they bent ALL the time. Found some of them flexed in my hands, which is ludicrous for a nail. Not sure if they've switched all of their nail know how to nail gun uses, and loose nails are an afterthought or just reject nail gun batches or what. When replacing the plaster with drywall in my 1945 house, the current drywall screws would snap when going into the close grain Fir and Spruce studding, some old ones I found in the attic would drive fine. Bottom line, the metallurgy in the current common fasteners is WAY below what it was years ago. I build everything with SPAX and GRK Torx head screws and will never go back.
The whole time I'm watching just thinking why not drill a pilot hole and you waited until the end to say this. Glad I didn't stop watching and jump to the comments to harp
A few years back I got some parts shipped to me from Brazil and they used Spax screws. I hadn't heard of them before but I was so impressed after taking this big shipping crate apart I looked them up on the internet. Spax sent me a random assortment in a sample pack and I've been a proud customer ever since.
@@scottnaish-theheartpatient2016 GRK is also German and don't use a coating because they use the proper metal. Check out a Spax and a GRK 9 or 10 next to each other. The Spax is thicker and likes to split the wood.
I did a similar test several years ago before embarking on a huge project in which I used 10's of thousands of screws but my test was primarily focused on joining two pieces of wood together both with the grain and into the end grain. Out of all the screws I tried, I settled on GRK brand construction screws and their RSS screws for structural work. Another factor I had to consider is how easily the screws sheared under stress as most of the screws used were 3-1/8" but had some as short as 1-1/4" and as long as 6". Also the diameter of the screws made a significant difference especially when evaluating shear strength. Where the stress applied was greater, I obviously used larger diameter screws of 1/4" and 5/16" diameters. Most of the 3-1/8" screws were #10 for both the construction and RSS screws. I found that decking screws in general were poor performers when shear was considered with Deckmate screws being the worst. Overall, if the boards were less than 1" thick, it was more expedient to use a countersink drill to predrill the holes for the screws but for 5/4" on up, a predrilled hole was unnecessary. Last, screwing into end grain obviously had the least holding power so to offset that longer screws were used when possible, like substituting a 4" or 5" screw where you would normally use a 3-1/8" screw.
Another big benefit of these more expensive screws is that they don't use Phillips heads like drywall screws. The star drivers are so much better. They weren't shown here, but those Deck Mate screws they sell at home depot are pretty awesome for the price, Project Farm did a video with those and they had pullout forces over 1,000 pounds per screw with those, they're quite impressive. Those Deck Mates are my go-tos for most general purpose applications.
I live on 50 acres, with many fences, wooden gates, and so forth. I've used thousands of screws from many different brands. The ones I turn to now almost exclusively are GRK. They grip the wood, making them easier to start, which is a big deal, and bite into the wood MUCH better than any other brand. No other brand anchors the boards to the posts like GRK. They are expensive but worth it. Spax is OK but not as good as GRK. Thumbs up, James.
@@UpInYourFeelings That has been the opposite of my experience. I have used ground contact pressure-treated wood and GRK for many years, and there have been no rust issues.
@@BarryHull I know I'm not the only one that's had this issue but could've maybe been some bad batches from factory. I've switched to Simpson Strong Tie and Fastenmaster branded screws since.
Aside from the thread and design differences, drywall screws are harder than framing screws and will snap off or break rather than bending. That could make a big difference in some applications like framing a structure to withstand hurricanes etc.
I was going to say the same thing. But it should be emphasized that that hardening makes them brittle. Not an issue in drywall. But it can be seen as a construction, or remodeling advantage, as its a neanderthal filled trade, and instead of removing an old screw from a stud, just whack the extended portion with a hammer and it breaks off, clean enough.
GRK Construction screws have a shear rating about 4 or 5 times that of a deck screw or drywall screw. That shear strength is a big deal if using screws where the are just clamping but are bearing a shear load like floor joists or ledger board.
I used my first Spax screws about 25 yr ago, building a workbench according to Ian Kirby's first design. I ordered a sample box from McFeely's before it was sold and the new owners destroyed it. They still are holding fast today; my bench has zero wobble. One size came up short a couple of screws, so I went to a local bolt and screw distributor and got their stainless steel screws. The Spax I was using were stainless also. I never broke or stripped out a screw in the maple with the Spax. The other screw broke the first time in spite of a pilot hole. I had to use a larger pilot hole to make them work. The old Spax had a conical tip without the tiny bit of a flute on the newer ones. Even my newer Spax are fully threaded except for some 3" or longer. I remember them saying that would hold the 2 pieces together tightly. They did emphasize holding the pieces tightly together before the screw enters the 2nd piece.
All good info. That said, I rarely use any of these screws for hardwood and NEVER without drilling a pilot hole if using in hardwood. I wouldn't use hardwood for most 'structural' builds, except furniture. For workbenches, shelving, etc. I always use softwood for frames. I MAY use hardwood for a benchtop, but that would require minimal screws, and I would use a pilot drill. By the way, though not 'hardwood', particle board will also cause drywall screw's heads to break off without pilot holes because it is so dense.
My biggest complaint about the plethora of screw types is the tendency to use drywall screw lengths. They are either too short or too long. Let's say you are screwing two, two by fours together. you have the choice of a screw that doesn't go far enough to really get good penetration or you get a screw where the tip of the screw protrudes out the back side of the second 2x4. The old style, slotted head, where you predrilled with a countersink, shaft and thread pilot were sized just right for use in common lumber thicknesses.
Thanks James for this thorough overview of an important topic. I’m a big fan of GRK’s depending on the project. IMHO, GRKs are ideal when strength is needed. Thanks for another shout out for Whiteside bits. Best value, IMHO. Please don’t tell my wife how much I’ve invested in router bits….
This was quite interesting, especially because you used maple and oak. I use drywall screws all the time in shop furniture, but never when they'll see a shearing force. They're hardened but not tempered, so they will break under strain. James, I never knew screws came in so many flavors! I always thought the little differences between the brands were marketing BS, but now I see the light! Thanks for this!
Wow. This is great information! I built lofts in all 3 bays of my garage 20 years ago and used drywall screws because I had a ton of them. Now I think I'll go back and replace them all very carefully with the GRK screws so all my treasures (aka 'trash') will still be "up in the air" for another 20 years! (And my kids will have to figure out what to do with it when I'm gone!)
I used to build a rink with boards in the backyard every winter. I broke a lot of screws before I went GRK. After that, I was able to reuse the same screws year after year.
I've been reusing Spax screws for years in my backyard haunt. I've pulled some out of discarded boards that have sat in the elements for multiple years and been able to reuse them. Given, it's not a particularly structural application, but they do have to hold heavy walls together, and they do that well. I also appreciate that I've been able to use the same included driver bit for years without it failing. Last time I went to the big orange box store I noticed that Spax seem to have disappeared from the shelves in normal sizes. Looks like I'll be shopping GRK from now on.
I use GRK for my needs in a construction screws but for general cabinetry work I use Spax screw. I’ve been using the Spax screws for 30 years and haven’t thought about changing to another. One of the features I like about Spax is that I can drive a screw into hardwood without pre drilling right up to 1/8” from the edge of a board without splitting. Another feature is that I can use a #2 square drive to install them but if needed someone can use a Phillips driver later on if they don’t have such a driver available. Spax has some construction screws that I have reached for too if the store I shop at did not carry the GRK’s. The Spax construction screws are really good too.
Regarding screws and their application, you could easily make a several hour video. Watching several videos about screw properties and applications, I have learned a lot. Shear properties is the most interesting to me. Thanks.
In my early days I bought a 250 screw assortment at Aldi for 6€ (because it's just screws, how much can be wrong there, right? Right.) and had every !third! screw break or strip on me. Quickly decided that grandpa was right in his assertion that "we don't have money to buy cheap" and went Spax (Torx) all the way and haven't looked back since. They're 0.02€ / screw when bought in bulk (usually buy 1000 or 5000 packs). With their quality control that price is hard to beat and I rarely have a screw break or strip these days.
I use GRK almost everything unless it's cheap or temporary. They drive in reliably, have twice the sheer strength, and always removable. The added cost saves me money every time. Worried about splitting? Run them backwards and the start a pilot hole. I tack all my framing together with them and they count as nails. Screws do not. I used the long ones to toenail posts to beams. The trim heads are perfect for furniture.
Very informative, I noticed you used different drive types (Torx, Phillips etc), have you done a tutorial video on this subject i.e advantages, disadvantages and uses of each type? Thanks for the clear and concise explanations too
I came across some instruction material about how to make strong connections with nails. I noticed that the instruction explicitly stated to angle the nails. And use opposite angles. It made sense for nails and I use it for screws as well now. It makes for ridiculously strong connections.
Using Spax screws VS GRK: I found that the spax T20 #9 screws countersink more consistently and beautifully into 3/4" Birch face sanded plywood than GRK or Deckmate. The GRK would tend to tear out the countersink leaving a very rough look, and the deckmate would tend to not countersink flush. I believe that the total features of the spax #9 make it the most desirable "finish" screw for veneer plywood if you are not using "trim head" screws. I didn't even try the drywall screws as i have broken too many of them trying to get them flush just like in this video example. For what it's worth they were also the correct soft metallic color, to clients taste (they wanted me to use black drywall screws) appreciate this channel, thanks
feeling like a certified stumpy viewer as I remember one of the old drywall vs spax screw videos like it was yesterday. To be honest, I have a bit of a fascination with screws and generally keep a vast array of fasteners in my shop; however, I cannot help but reach for spax any time I can. They make premium screws, I like the unidrive system but their torx fitment is also excellent. For me, its worth the cost to have superior application specific fasteners that minimize headaches
One thing I have learned about Spax screws when joining two boards together is to use a drill drive and find the proper clutch setting. When using an impact driver the Spax screw would end up stripping the hole and cause you to move to a new spot or repair the board yard screwing into. This happened in soft wood… I haven’t tried the Spax screws in hardwood. The Spax screws are very good screws though. I also like the GRK’s.
Don't forget about sheering force. Structural screws have a lot more of this than drywall screws. One reason why nails were/are so good for shear, but structural screws and their newer designs have started to make up for this or even surpass too.
Very interesting test, one factor to consider is all of these screws are designed for pine. Anything structural these days is made with pine. I like the test with hard wood though as it accentuates the differences more drastically between all of the different cutting tips and heads. Hardwood is far more brittle than pine and consequently more prone to splitting. Great video! Keep it up!
growing up, my dad always had boxes of all various screws, all over the garage, different heads, materials, diameters, slightly different lengths. whenever I wanted to start a project which needed an unknown number of screws it was a main to realize halfway through i need to find another box of screws, and the new ones never matched the old ones. and there would be some used ones in there with rusty heads. it was a real pain in the ass. I see why he just bought a new box for each big project. I did it the other way around, I bought GRK construction screws in 4 lengths I use most. put them all in a little organizer box with the right bit, theyre all t25, and some square and flat bits in case I need to remove other screws. now whenever I need screws it is infinitely easier to get them. huge QOL improvement. and when im done with the screws, they work like theyre brand new, so I just sort them into the 4 sizes and put them back in the organizer.
The big thing you didn't mention was single- or double-start threads. I have thrown away most of my double-start stock now, simply because they actually work their way loose in applications where there is any movement possible. I now regard them as potentially dangerous, for example if used (accidentally?) to fix door hinges. They usually wreck the wood they're in, too, so that you cannot simply replace them with a single-start screw at a later date.
I've never really put a lot of thought into these type screws, other than I seem to use a lot of DeckMate or similar deck/construction screws with Torx heads if possible. I've just completed several shelf/storage projects where a lot of screws and nails were used. These were soft pine projects where the sinking of the head is no problem. In fact too much so. I often use some small washers behind the head to prevent the head pulling in and get a good pull together between the parts without the screws poking through. There is fastener cost/use trade off that this video makes me think about. Nails are fast and cheap with a gun, but the gun may not fit in the work area. There are the problems of working alone, convenience, etc. to consider. I did a little cost per fastener research on the types of fasteners in this video and that I have recently driven too damn many of: Flat Head Screws: Spax #9 Torx $.0968 DeckMate #9 Torx $.1164 GRK #9 $.1245 GripRit Torx #9 $.0747 GripRite Drywall Screws Phillips #8 $.059 Nails: GripRite .113 21deg 2.375 inch Galv Framing Nails $.0467 GripRite .113 21deg 2.375 inch Brite Framing Nails $0.03 15 Guage finish Nails Various finishes - $.012 to $.027
Thanks for the lesson! I'm an amateur (And I'm not afraid to admit it!) so I had no idea screws could even have serrated threads. I won't be needing them for my current project though, working on rehandling my grandfathers old hammer since it's come loose and it feels like a great way to honor him. Have you ever rehandled a tool? If you have then I would love some tips.
I'm building my first cabinets and what works well for me is a combination of dowels and screws. The side panels won't be visible so I might as well go easy mode. I've been using Spax for that and they work pretty well in soft wood. Despite my sinful ways of not using pilot holes, they have given me no trouble at all.
Anyone in construction will tell you nails are still the strongest solution for weight bearing applications. I think what your test revealed that these newer screws help but don't replace common sense. If you have the time to pre drill then do it and not over driving a screw. One thing you didn't cover that is the long term effects of rust on drywall screws. If you ever had to repair work done with drywall screws in damp basements or outdoor applications like sheds, the frustration of trying to remove drywall screws and the snaps off in the wood, making a simple repair an ordeal.
There ist still another point to consider. Drywall screws have a coating that ist meant to prevent rust in gypsum whereas wood screws have to resist the various aggressive ingrediences of natural wood.
Another thing is corrosion resistance - GRK and Spax are usually much superior compared to drywall screws. I've found over and over again that using good screws like GRK and Spax make a big difference during use. I try to use them whenever I can.
As a finish carpenter that does alot of cabinet installation, fasteners are very important . I enjoy Spax screws for years but it seems that they lost strength and the quality has been lacking. GRK are some of the strongest screws out there but I dislike Torx style screws. My favorite are High point screws ,they have the number 2 square drive head which is also my favorite, but they are a bit pricey . As for speed , ease of use, and quality for no call backs , It is a must that i use a quality screw with all those features. Great video .
I love my Spax screws. They are great for holding things together. Don't need a pilot hole unless you want things to be pretty, then I just drill a countersink hole and impact driver away!
Thank you for detailing all the special features of the more advanced screws. It wasn't anything this complex that drove me to Spax, etc., though. I just got tired of ripping the center out of the Phillips heads of cheap wood screws.
Thanks for the test which most of us don't have the patience to perform ~ ~ I'm clueless, but when I needed to do a small DIY job involving screws I decided to get some "nice" ones and tried both GRX and Spax for different situations. Love them both. They got my attention because of the torx head, which I hadn't seen before, and I think they included a bit in the box. I already knew that torx/star along with the Robertson is way more reliable than any cross slot. Also any screw that looks like an anime weapon is OK with me
Great one as always James. If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason you picked drywall screws for those lofts and benches? Was it just a situation of "I have a lot of these, and they're good enough for the job I need them to do" sort of thing?
I agree about drywall screws, they're sharp, cheap and go in easily but break equally easily. Even the gold colored "fence" screws are just a drywall screw with some zinc electroplating and break. For decks, I prefer Pozisquare. I've had cedar deck boards "go bad" (warp, twist, split) and had to replace them and Pozisquare never fails to come out and it never has a cam-out issue or any other failure. And I've never had a warping board pull them out. For any other purpose, I completely agree and use Spax or GRK, whichever is available at the big box store.
James, have you ever done a video on confirmat screws? The only place I've seen them used is in particle board furniture that you assemble yourself. I'm wondering if they can be used in more traditional projects, for example to fasten pine or spruce boards. Thx
Figuring out and getting the screws for my cedar fence was one of the hardest parts of the material buying process. I ended up going with a 1 1/4 stainless steel, square head, grk. I went to buy some more this summer and they are no longer sold at the store. Also the size I purchased 25lb box is no longer available. Its a shame as I love the screws and used the leftovers on everything.
Good one. I was shocked at the size of your "drywall" screw. We don't get beefy shank bugle head drywall screws like that in New England. Here are some shank diameters (taken between thread and head) of our screws, black bugle drywall coarse .108", black #17 nibs assembly .117" , and a spax for comparison .145" The only place I'll use a N.E. drywall screw is on a piece of drywall into a stud.
So what are those silver wood screws good for? I used those for a few years and always thought I was doing something wrong because they performed so poorly. Once I switched to deck screws things went much better.
The silver or gold wood screws are good for SPF lumber, mostly construction uses. The SPAX and GRK have extra tech that is better but ultimately unnecessary most of the time. It's highly dependent on the wood your using. SPF framing lumber is soft and any screw works well, while "hardwoods" don't accept hardly any screws at all without a pilot hole, which was not used in the video. Some of the screws would snap or just strip out when overdriven. Deck screws are ok, but just keep in mind they are NOT structural unless rated as such.
@@j.frankparnell3087 We would need to look at the boxes they came in and look up the specs on the exact screws, however the SPAX and GRKs would likely be rated in some manner, and therefore could be used with some confidence. In my experience, the color of coating is NOT an indicator of anything, and you get what you pay for.
I've had good luck mending average kitchen table chairs with GRK finish screws. I often pre-drill because you're connecting spindles to spindles or seats at bizarre angles. But always ask the question: will the screws I use be worth more than the thing I'm mending? It just seems to me that coarse drywall screws were designed to hold a baked slab of clay with paper sides to a 2x4 joist or stud. The head is designed to dimple the paper coating just enough to be covered with mud. Beyond that you are flying blind.
I almost never use a nail anymore and my tab for buying GRK screws has gotten out of hand. I recently resurfaced my deck at home and the screw tab alone was $1200 for colored deck screws. I use a lot of treated outdoor lumber for projects; I also use a lot of hardwood for inside projects and rarely use pine or fir. I pore-drill ALL holes and plug them. I even break off #9x3” GRK screws in hardwood. I’ve toyed with using drywall screws for cost reason alone. I’ve yet to find a good place for them. I HATE Phillips screws and given a choice will never use one when I don’t have to do so. I think the GRK, while have me shaking my head overtime I buy them, is the way to go for 90% of my own uses, and I find myself reaching for them without hesitation for anything I do. I’ve looked at trying to buy them in bulk, Amazon, BigBox- wherever/whatever- I haven’t found I can buy them significantly cheaper, and the thought buying a $220 box of screws to save a penny a screw makes my knees weak. But, when pricing out a custom order- you don’t want to forget what you paid for screws. It increasingly adds up.
I have used SPAX in several applications where they fail: Outdoor redwood furniture. The moist swelling in 8-12 months cracked the hardened fasteners. Harder screws are not always better depending on application.
Yes - very nice analysis. The next level of thought is incorporating the 'properties of materials' re the wood itself: The density/ compressabiity of the wood, together with the measurement of the size of the screw shank determine the precise optimal size of a pilot hole that takes both the shank and compressibility into consideration to maximise the quality of the threads cut by the screw. A soft wood will call for a pilot hole a bit smaller than the shank. Very dense wood wants a hole the full size of the shank.
How about the issue of using coated deck screws and having the treated wood shrink, leaving the heads above the surface. How much trouble will you have going back several months later to drive them in more? Are they more likely to break? I don't want the heads above the surface as they catch the snow shovel in the winter.
I will advise that drywall are for holding drywall. In a pinch, wood ok. Not exterior-it will rust, break. GRK also is wonky with pressure treated and exterior work...they work great and I built a temp firewood holder. But I needed a firewood shed and when I took about the holder, the GRKs broke heads clean off (my bad was using impact driver).
first shop projects i bought GRK because... they were there. didn't realize i spoiled myself until i bought the lowes off brand grk (power grip maybe?) and hated using them every minute. didn't even fit the bits well. Always get GRK now
I build a lot of decks and use GRK exclusively because of the fact that it's the metal not the coating giving the protection. As well as the other reasons listed here. The nice thing about not having a coating is if I reuse a screw the coating hasn't come off. Plus the fact that a 9 or a 10 is an actual 9 or 10 . Not a 10 plus the coating. I have too many issues with Spax splitting the wood at the end of a board. Never an issue with the GRK.
Matthias Wandel recently did some testing on drywall screws. He put them into a few different thicknesses of steel with a pilot hole and let them self tap. He used a self built jig to pull on the head and they held to over 500Kg.
I will use drywall screws over standard wood screws but the construction screws mentioned, such as GRK, Spax, and Deck mate beat the drywall screws hands down. Since I am still a bit paranoid about splitting the wood, I still drill pilot holes and countersinks. I even slightly countersink the bottom of the hole for clearance of any wood fibers that might be trapped along the shank.
I like to use deck screws for most stuff because of the torx head, my problem with drywall screws is the phillips head if I could get them in torx head I would probably use them
I mostly use pilot and clearance hole predrilling as it gives the maximum contact pressure between the joint contact surfaces and gives to my opinion the maximum strength of the joint no matter the type of screws used.
coated deck screws work well in soft woods. I can't think of a reason to use them in hardwood. For that a nice brass screw in a pre-drilled hole does the trick and looks nice.
Its rare i leave the local big box with anything but spax for screws. Folks think im nuts for paying the price i tell them i aint got time to deal with babying screws in. Very few boxes of grip fast in my fastner drawer.
3:20 I love GRK screws for one main reason: That star head. It makes driving the screws a breeze. Feels like the odds of stripping one are very minimal if at all. I only use them for fastening catwalk ramps or other cat features (cat rooms) on walls, into studs (because I refuse to use wall anchors if at all possible). I laugh though, because I have refurbished a lot of cat trees (third party) and often I see GRK screws used to fasten the posts to the base. THAT is overkill. None of my cat trees have ever failed because I used simple 2-1/2" deck screws that way. Between those, and the 1-1/4" desk screws, I can put together a bomb proof cat tree that even the largest cats can't destroy (other than the carpet and sisal rope).
@sixpotshot 0 seconds ago Spax, Heco, FastenMaster and Simpson are my favourite screws by a mile. Never used GRK - On a different token: do I spot a Tormek T-8 Black 50th Anniversary on the background? Good taste 😜
Drywall screws are brittle, and wood flexing can break them. Also, wood flexing (say, from a sudden load) can weaken the threads cut into the wood. Nails, on the other hand, are flexible, and vinyl coated nails tend to glue themselves in. Consider - even modern wooden roller coasters are nailed. Daily safety inspectors carry a hammer in case they see a nail standing proud. Plus, a nailer is fast. If you really want holding, use square nails.
I like watching your videos all the time, but I have a quick question. I just started working with walnut a lot more but have a hard time seeing the pencil line. Do you have a suggestion that might my 72 year old eyes little?
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Excellent practical research! One more type I'd like to see compared - narrow-head finishing screws.
The torx vs phillips heads also makes a huge difference. I refuse to use phillips head screws.
Same here. My #1 priority when buying screws is what type of driver they need.
If I'm restoring old furniture I look for slot screws. Other than that I think I like Robertson the best with torx second. I like Robertson because the screw stays on the bit better.
@@a9ball1 Seems like torx are more readily available then Robertson, at least in the US.
Last year I was running Phillips screws and they didn't want to start. I had to run the drill with my left hand and of course I was holding the work piece with my right hand. Well me being RIGHT HANDED, it only took about 10 seconds before the bit jumped out of the screw and it went almost all the way through my right bird finger. (yes, I am from the south.) Now I use anything else BUT a Phillips when it is an awkward position.
Torks is definitely king.
@@nealkonneker6084 very true. It helps to live 20 miles from the Canadian border.
6 years ago, I used 3 inch exterior Spax screws to build some raised garden beds because I didn't want to make a bunch of pilot holes. This past spring I had to rebuild those same beds because the wood had rotted out and I literally used the exact same Spax screws from the original beds minus a couple. Just this week I began using some GRK structural screws to shore up a leaning garage and man, do they lock in there! I also can never recall any crazy splitting using either Spax or GRK. Very impressed with both!
Agree. I used coated SPAX lags with the wide flat head and T30 driver to build a lot of equipment for an obstacle course where equipment is near the sea. That equipment had thousands of people climbing over it over the years with never a loose board or corrosion. Any time I did a mod I found them in great shape. With slim German steel shafts and wide spiral flutes they were awesome.
@@jakeg7033 🤔…???? 😃💡SPAX screws make wood rot!!!
The gold came at the very end: drill a pilot hole, countersink the head in advance, and use a driver with a clutch you can set to the right limit. Also, remember that if the thread engages both pieces, this can actually prevent the joint from closing perfectly. Drywall screws are particularly bad in this regard, because the thread runs almost all the way to the head. If you really want to pull both pieces tightly together, drill the pilot hole in the upper one to the OD of the screw thread, and the ID for the pilot hole in the piece underneath. This allows the screw to turn freely as it goes in and draws the lower piece up as tight as can be. This method, though more time consuming, is virtually essential if you're building something that needs to be taken apart one or more times before final assembly.
I agree. I always drill a pilot hole, regardless of the type of screw.
Incidentally, you mentioned the ID of the screw for the piece underneath. The term for that size is the Root Diameter; that’s the size of the “shaft” defined by the bottom of the threads.
Doing two different hole sizes means…
Switching bits back and forth;
Having 2 drills (or 3, of you
include a 9:34 countersink);
Using a combination drill bit / countersink.
I’ve had much success using GRK.
I don't bother drilling two different sizes of hole. Drill the boards, then send the screw through. If it separates the boards, back the screw out until they come back together and send it again. Works every time.
@@TheCharleseye or wallow out the hole in the top piece slightly with the drillbit and then let the screw strip the thread in it. :P
@@TheCharleseye Most of the time.
It was interesting to see how much engineering can go into something as seemly benign as a screw though. When time = money, get the better screws for sure.
A great video. I am a landlord who bit by bit has come of age as a handyman and maintenance guy. I have done more than my fair share of extemporizing and making it work just by using what I had in the truck rather than what it right for the job. About time I started thinking more clearly about what I was doing rather than the simple, quick fix. This really helped, particularly in the way you went into the design details. Many thanks.,
It's worth noting that drywall screws are hardened. That's a big factor in their suitability for structural use. Harder screws are also more brittle so they'll break in situations where softer screws will flex or bend. That brittleness is why so many of them snapped off during the tests, and an impact driver would compound the problem.
The type of steel used in all of these mass produced screws (and nails) is a major factor in the current time. Built various sheds and buildings around my property, and the best fasteners are important. Been driving nails since i was kid, 10 and16 penny nails predominantly, but hadn't done a lot of construction in the last couple of decades in my professional engineering career. Bought a shed kit and it came with 6 boxes of 2 inch and 3 inch Grip-Rite nails, no problem said I. Then when trying to drive these Chinese nails into white pine, they bent ALL the time. Found some of them flexed in my hands, which is ludicrous for a nail. Not sure if they've switched all of their nail know how to nail gun uses, and loose nails are an afterthought or just reject nail gun batches or what. When replacing the plaster with drywall in my 1945 house, the current drywall screws would snap when going into the close grain Fir and Spruce studding, some old ones I found in the attic would drive fine. Bottom line, the metallurgy in the current common fasteners is WAY below what it was years ago. I build everything with SPAX and GRK Torx head screws and will never go back.
The whole time I'm watching just thinking why not drill a pilot hole and you waited until the end to say this. Glad I didn't stop watching and jump to the comments to harp
A lifetime machinist, there's no substitute for pre removing material. Even a small diameter hole with wood.
A few years back I got some parts shipped to me from Brazil and they used Spax screws. I hadn't heard of them before but I was so impressed after taking this big shipping crate apart I looked them up on the internet. Spax sent me a random assortment in a sample pack and I've been a proud customer ever since.
Agree 100%. SPAX have been the choice structural screw for me after I learned the hard way.
Spax ,german company say no more
@@scottnaish-theheartpatient2016
GRK is also German and don't use a coating because they use the proper metal.
Check out a Spax and a GRK 9 or 10 next to each other.
The Spax is thicker and likes to split the wood.
@@greghooper4235 I am about to take on a new project of a "foosball "table so i will use them and give them a go
I did a similar test several years ago before embarking on a huge project in which I used 10's of thousands of screws but my test was primarily focused on joining two pieces of wood together both with the grain and into the end grain. Out of all the screws I tried, I settled on GRK brand construction screws and their RSS screws for structural work. Another factor I had to consider is how easily the screws sheared under stress as most of the screws used were 3-1/8" but had some as short as 1-1/4" and as long as 6". Also the diameter of the screws made a significant difference especially when evaluating shear strength. Where the stress applied was greater, I obviously used larger diameter screws of 1/4" and 5/16" diameters. Most of the 3-1/8" screws were #10 for both the construction and RSS screws. I found that decking screws in general were poor performers when shear was considered with Deckmate screws being the worst. Overall, if the boards were less than 1" thick, it was more expedient to use a countersink drill to predrill the holes for the screws but for 5/4" on up, a predrilled hole was unnecessary. Last, screwing into end grain obviously had the least holding power so to offset that longer screws were used when possible, like substituting a 4" or 5" screw where you would normally use a 3-1/8" screw.
Another big benefit of these more expensive screws is that they don't use Phillips heads like drywall screws. The star drivers are so much better. They weren't shown here, but those Deck Mate screws they sell at home depot are pretty awesome for the price, Project Farm did a video with those and they had pullout forces over 1,000 pounds per screw with those, they're quite impressive. Those Deck Mates are my go-tos for most general purpose applications.
I live on 50 acres, with many fences, wooden gates, and so forth. I've used thousands of screws from many different brands. The ones I turn to now almost exclusively are GRK. They grip the wood, making them easier to start, which is a big deal, and bite into the wood MUCH better than any other brand. No other brand anchors the boards to the posts like GRK. They are expensive but worth it. Spax is OK but not as good as GRK. Thumbs up, James.
I stopped using GRK bcus I found they don't hold up in treated lumber, they tend to corrode surprisingly quickly.
100%
@@UpInYourFeelings That has been the opposite of my experience. I have used ground contact pressure-treated wood and GRK for many years, and there have been no rust issues.
@@BarryHull I know I'm not the only one that's had this issue but could've maybe been some bad batches from factory. I've switched to Simpson Strong Tie and Fastenmaster branded screws since.
I absolutely love GRK’s cabinet screws. They drive like a dream with almost no effort. Never once had splitting issues despite not drilling pilots.
I pre-drill almost everything and use a countersink bit if needed. Thank you for the very good information again
Conclusion is, as ever, pilot and countersink anything that matters. Which, as woodworkers, is the vast majority of the time.
This☝️
You're right - I've never thought about screws as much as now. Surprisingly interesting! Thanks for the info!
Aside from the thread and design differences, drywall screws are harder than framing screws and will snap off or break rather than bending. That could make a big difference in some applications like framing a structure to withstand hurricanes etc.
I was going to say the same thing. But it should be emphasized that that hardening makes them brittle.
Not an issue in drywall. But it can be seen as a construction, or remodeling advantage, as its a neanderthal filled trade, and instead of removing an old screw from a stud, just whack the extended portion with a hammer and it breaks off, clean enough.
@@michaelmoorrees3585 “neanderthal filled trade” 😆😆 perfect comment on a woodworking channel !🤣
GRK Construction screws have a shear rating about 4 or 5 times that of a deck screw or drywall screw. That shear strength is a big deal if using screws where the are just clamping but are bearing a shear load like floor joists or ledger board.
I used my first Spax screws about 25 yr ago, building a workbench according to Ian Kirby's first design. I ordered a sample box from McFeely's before it was sold and the new owners destroyed it. They still are holding fast today; my bench has zero wobble. One size came up short a couple of screws, so I went to a local bolt and screw distributor and got their stainless steel screws. The Spax I was using were stainless also. I never broke or stripped out a screw in the maple with the Spax. The other screw broke the first time in spite of a pilot hole. I had to use a larger pilot hole to make them work. The old Spax had a conical tip without the tiny bit of a flute on the newer ones. Even my newer Spax are fully threaded except for some 3" or longer. I remember them saying that would hold the 2 pieces together tightly. They did emphasize holding the pieces tightly together before the screw enters the 2nd piece.
Good comment, and it was a shame about McFeely’s. 😞
I have never tried grk screws , once i used spax i never purchased any others
All good info. That said, I rarely use any of these screws for hardwood and NEVER without drilling a pilot hole if using in hardwood.
I wouldn't use hardwood for most 'structural' builds, except furniture. For workbenches, shelving, etc. I always use softwood for frames. I MAY use hardwood for a benchtop, but that would require minimal screws, and I would use a pilot drill.
By the way, though not 'hardwood', particle board will also cause drywall screw's heads to break off without pilot holes because it is so dense.
My biggest complaint about the plethora of screw types is the tendency to use drywall screw lengths. They are either too short or too long. Let's say you are screwing two, two by fours together. you have the choice of a screw that doesn't go far enough to really get good penetration or you get a screw where the tip of the screw protrudes out the back side of the second 2x4. The old style, slotted head, where you predrilled with a countersink, shaft and thread pilot were sized just right for use in common lumber thicknesses.
Thanks James for this thorough overview of an important topic. I’m a big fan of GRK’s depending on the project. IMHO, GRKs are ideal when strength is needed. Thanks for another shout out for Whiteside bits. Best value, IMHO. Please don’t tell my wife how much I’ve invested in router bits….
This was quite interesting, especially because you used maple and oak. I use drywall screws all the time in shop furniture, but never when they'll see a shearing force. They're hardened but not tempered, so they will break under strain. James, I never knew screws came in so many flavors! I always thought the little differences between the brands were marketing BS, but now I see the light! Thanks for this!
Another useful test James, you have the best woodworking channel on RUclips.
Wow. This is great information! I built lofts in all 3 bays of my garage 20 years ago and used drywall screws because I had a ton of them. Now I think I'll go back and replace them all very carefully with the GRK screws so all my treasures (aka 'trash') will still be "up in the air" for another 20 years! (And my kids will have to figure out what to do with it when I'm gone!)
I used to build a rink with boards in the backyard every winter. I broke a lot of screws before I went GRK. After that, I was able to reuse the same screws year after year.
I've been reusing Spax screws for years in my backyard haunt. I've pulled some out of discarded boards that have sat in the elements for multiple years and been able to reuse them. Given, it's not a particularly structural application, but they do have to hold heavy walls together, and they do that well.
I also appreciate that I've been able to use the same included driver bit for years without it failing.
Last time I went to the big orange box store I noticed that Spax seem to have disappeared from the shelves in normal sizes. Looks like I'll be shopping GRK from now on.
I use GRK for my needs in a construction screws but for general cabinetry work I use Spax screw. I’ve been using the Spax screws for 30 years and haven’t thought about changing to another. One of the features I like about Spax is that I can drive a screw into hardwood without pre drilling right up to 1/8” from the edge of a board without splitting. Another feature is that I can use a #2 square drive to install them but if needed someone can use a Phillips driver later on if they don’t have such a driver available. Spax has some construction screws that I have reached for too if the store I shop at did not carry the GRK’s. The Spax construction screws are really good too.
Regarding screws and their application, you could easily make a several hour video. Watching several videos about screw properties and applications, I have learned a lot. Shear properties is the most interesting to me. Thanks.
In my early days I bought a 250 screw assortment at Aldi for 6€ (because it's just screws, how much can be wrong there, right? Right.) and had every !third! screw break or strip on me. Quickly decided that grandpa was right in his assertion that "we don't have money to buy cheap" and went Spax (Torx) all the way and haven't looked back since. They're 0.02€ / screw when bought in bulk (usually buy 1000 or 5000 packs). With their quality control that price is hard to beat and I rarely have a screw break or strip these days.
I've never had an issue with those cheap selection boxes but I only use them with a normal drill and push hard on them.
Great information about screws holding power. Thank you for sharing. Everyone stay safe,wai, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
I use GRK almost everything unless it's cheap or temporary. They drive in reliably, have twice the sheer strength, and always removable. The added cost saves me money every time.
Worried about splitting? Run them backwards and the start a pilot hole.
I tack all my framing together with them and they count as nails. Screws do not. I used the long ones to toenail posts to beams.
The trim heads are perfect for furniture.
Very informative, I noticed you used different drive types (Torx, Phillips etc), have you done a tutorial video on this subject i.e advantages, disadvantages and uses of each type? Thanks for the clear and concise explanations too
I came across some instruction material about how to make strong connections with nails. I noticed that the instruction explicitly stated to angle the nails. And use opposite angles. It made sense for nails and I use it for screws as well now. It makes for ridiculously strong connections.
Using Spax screws VS GRK:
I found that the spax T20 #9 screws countersink more consistently and beautifully into 3/4" Birch face sanded plywood than GRK or Deckmate. The GRK would tend to tear out the countersink leaving a very rough look, and the deckmate would tend to not countersink flush.
I believe that the total features of the spax #9 make it the most desirable "finish" screw for veneer plywood if you are not using "trim head" screws. I didn't even try the drywall screws as i have broken too many of them trying to get them flush just like in this video example. For what it's worth they were also the correct soft metallic color, to clients taste (they wanted me to use black drywall screws)
appreciate this channel, thanks
veneer and visible screws? what the....
@@imakedookie I really just meant birchface ply
@@alexanderlewis8351 understandable! have a nice day!
feeling like a certified stumpy viewer as I remember one of the old drywall vs spax screw videos like it was yesterday. To be honest, I have a bit of a fascination with screws and generally keep a vast array of fasteners in my shop; however, I cannot help but reach for spax any time I can. They make premium screws, I like the unidrive system but their torx fitment is also excellent. For me, its worth the cost to have superior application specific fasteners that minimize headaches
One thing I have learned about Spax screws when joining two boards together is to use a drill drive and find the proper clutch setting. When using an impact driver the Spax screw would end up stripping the hole and cause you to move to a new spot or repair the board yard screwing into. This happened in soft wood… I haven’t tried the Spax screws in hardwood. The Spax screws are very good screws though. I also like the GRK’s.
Been using GRK for years…threw any Phillips head screw out of my shop. But I learned a lot from your analysis. Thanks!
Interesting. I was going to do a similar study as well, but I got busy and said "Screw it". Thanks for doing the hard work for me!
Don't forget about sheering force. Structural screws have a lot more of this than drywall screws. One reason why nails were/are so good for shear, but structural screws and their newer designs have started to make up for this or even surpass too.
Very interesting test, one factor to consider is all of these screws are designed for pine. Anything structural these days is made with pine. I like the test with hard wood though as it accentuates the differences more drastically between all of the different cutting tips and heads. Hardwood is far more brittle than pine and consequently more prone to splitting. Great video! Keep it up!
Great video! I’ve been using GRK for years but never knew how they were different
A graduate level mini course from Dr. Hamilton. Bravo!
growing up, my dad always had boxes of all various screws, all over the garage, different heads, materials, diameters, slightly different lengths. whenever I wanted to start a project which needed an unknown number of screws it was a main to realize halfway through i need to find another box of screws, and the new ones never matched the old ones. and there would be some used ones in there with rusty heads. it was a real pain in the ass. I see why he just bought a new box for each big project.
I did it the other way around, I bought GRK construction screws in 4 lengths I use most. put them all in a little organizer box with the right bit, theyre all t25, and some square and flat bits in case I need to remove other screws. now whenever I need screws it is infinitely easier to get them. huge QOL improvement. and when im done with the screws, they work like theyre brand new, so I just sort them into the 4 sizes and put them back in the organizer.
Thank you, James. A very interesting comparison that provides useful information. 😃😃😃
The big thing you didn't mention was single- or double-start threads. I have thrown away most of my double-start stock now, simply because they actually work their way loose in applications where there is any movement possible. I now regard them as potentially dangerous, for example if used (accidentally?) to fix door hinges. They usually wreck the wood they're in, too, so that you cannot simply replace them with a single-start screw at a later date.
I've never really put a lot of thought into these type screws, other than I seem to use a lot of DeckMate or similar deck/construction screws with Torx heads if possible. I've just completed several shelf/storage projects where a lot of screws and nails were used. These were soft pine projects where the sinking of the head is no problem. In fact too much so. I often use some small washers behind the head to prevent the head pulling in and get a good pull together between the parts without the screws poking through. There is fastener cost/use trade off that this video makes me think about. Nails are fast and cheap with a gun, but the gun may not fit in the work area. There are the problems of working alone, convenience, etc. to consider. I did a little cost per fastener research on the types of fasteners in this video and that I have recently driven too damn many of:
Flat Head Screws:
Spax #9 Torx $.0968
DeckMate #9 Torx $.1164
GRK #9 $.1245
GripRit Torx #9 $.0747
GripRite Drywall Screws Phillips #8 $.059
Nails:
GripRite .113 21deg 2.375 inch Galv Framing Nails $.0467
GripRite .113 21deg 2.375 inch Brite Framing Nails $0.03
15 Guage finish Nails Various finishes - $.012 to $.027
Thanks for the lesson! I'm an amateur (And I'm not afraid to admit it!) so I had no idea screws could even have serrated threads.
I won't be needing them for my current project though, working on rehandling my grandfathers old hammer since it's come loose and it feels like a great way to honor him.
Have you ever rehandled a tool? If you have then I would love some tips.
I'm building my first cabinets and what works well for me is a combination of dowels and screws. The side panels won't be visible so I might as well go easy mode.
I've been using Spax for that and they work pretty well in soft wood. Despite my sinful ways of not using pilot holes, they have given me no trouble at all.
Anyone in construction will tell you nails are still the strongest solution for weight bearing applications. I think what your test revealed that these newer screws help but don't replace common sense. If you have the time to pre drill then do it and not over driving a screw. One thing you didn't cover that is the long term effects of rust on drywall screws. If you ever had to repair work done with drywall screws in damp basements or outdoor applications like sheds, the frustration of trying to remove drywall screws and the snaps off in the wood, making a simple repair an ordeal.
There ist still another point to consider. Drywall screws have a coating that ist meant to prevent rust in gypsum whereas wood screws have to resist the various aggressive ingrediences of natural wood.
If you watch old episodes of This Old House, Norm used dry wall screws everywhere. Of course there were not many options back in the day.
GREAT Video. I wish more people (in the trades or not) knew the basics of fasteners. Pro tip: When in doubt read the box.
Another thing is corrosion resistance - GRK and Spax are usually much superior compared to drywall screws.
I've found over and over again that using good screws like GRK and Spax make a big difference during use. I try to use them whenever I can.
I wonder if the Astra coating is an application of Titanium nitride or some allow of that.
As a finish carpenter that does alot of cabinet installation, fasteners are very important . I enjoy Spax screws for years but it seems that they lost strength and the quality has been lacking. GRK are some of the strongest screws out there but I dislike Torx style screws. My favorite are High point screws ,they have the number 2 square drive head which is also my favorite, but they are a bit pricey . As for speed , ease of use, and quality for no call backs , It is a must that i use a quality screw with all those features. Great video .
I love my Spax screws. They are great for holding things together. Don't need a pilot hole unless you want things to be pretty, then I just drill a countersink hole and impact driver away!
Thank you for detailing all the special features of the more advanced screws. It wasn't anything this complex that drove me to Spax, etc., though. I just got tired of ripping the center out of the Phillips heads of cheap wood screws.
Thanks for the test which most of us don't have the patience to perform ~ ~ I'm clueless, but when I needed to do a small DIY job involving screws I decided to get some "nice" ones and tried both GRX and Spax for different situations. Love them both. They got my attention because of the torx head, which I hadn't seen before, and I think they included a bit in the box. I already knew that torx/star along with the Robertson is way more reliable than any cross slot. Also any screw that looks like an anime weapon is OK with me
Great one as always James. If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason you picked drywall screws for those lofts and benches? Was it just a situation of "I have a lot of these, and they're good enough for the job I need them to do" sort of thing?
It was what I had
Thanks a bunch for all the info, James! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I agree about drywall screws, they're sharp, cheap and go in easily but break equally easily. Even the gold colored "fence" screws are just a drywall screw with some zinc electroplating and break.
For decks, I prefer Pozisquare. I've had cedar deck boards "go bad" (warp, twist, split) and had to replace them and Pozisquare never fails to come out and it never has a cam-out issue or any other failure. And I've never had a warping board pull them out.
For any other purpose, I completely agree and use Spax or GRK, whichever is available at the big box store.
GRK screw are my go to screws for many projects. Door installs & Cabinet installs are MUCH easier with them.
Great comparison. Never really understood the important differences between GRK and Spax.
As always, a good lesson learned. Thank you
Im a big fan of GRKs for external work.
I use a drywall screw with a predrilled pilot to prevent splitting
For structural? I use a bolt or a lag.
I watched this one 3 times - very useful information!
Is this a repost? I'm getting major Deja Vu.
Right? I feel like he did this a year ago? Maybe two....?
sure you're not thinking of his previous vid about drive types? (Philips vs Torx vs Robertson etc)
@@colinstu pretty sure. Whatever it was, it was a while ago. Also, the first 12 seconds specifically is what’s giving me the major Deja Vu.
James, have you ever done a video on confirmat screws? The only place I've seen them used is in particle board furniture that you assemble yourself. I'm wondering if they can be used in more traditional projects, for example to fasten pine or spruce boards. Thx
I feel accomplished now. Got within the first 10 views of one of your awesome videos without even trying.
Figuring out and getting the screws for my cedar fence was one of the hardest parts of the material buying process. I ended up going with a 1 1/4 stainless steel, square head, grk. I went to buy some more this summer and they are no longer sold at the store. Also the size I purchased 25lb box is no longer available. Its a shame as I love the screws and used the leftovers on everything.
I randomly grabbed some GRK screws for a project once and have never looked back. They are great for fences, decking, hanging cabinets, etc.
Good one. I was shocked at the size of your "drywall" screw. We don't get beefy shank bugle head drywall screws like that in New England. Here are some shank diameters (taken between thread and head) of our screws, black bugle drywall coarse .108", black #17 nibs assembly .117" , and a spax for comparison .145" The only place I'll use a N.E. drywall screw is on a piece of drywall into a stud.
So what are those silver wood screws good for? I used those for a few years and always thought I was doing something wrong because they performed so poorly. Once I switched to deck screws things went much better.
The silver or gold wood screws are good for SPF lumber, mostly construction uses. The SPAX and GRK have extra tech that is better but ultimately unnecessary most of the time. It's highly dependent on the wood your using. SPF framing lumber is soft and any screw works well, while "hardwoods" don't accept hardly any screws at all without a pilot hole, which was not used in the video. Some of the screws would snap or just strip out when overdriven. Deck screws are ok, but just keep in mind they are NOT structural unless rated as such.
@@FeelingLikeThatNow Are those silver wood screws structural?
@@j.frankparnell3087 We would need to look at the boxes they came in and look up the specs on the exact screws, however the SPAX and GRKs would likely be rated in some manner, and therefore could be used with some confidence. In my experience, the color of coating is NOT an indicator of anything, and you get what you pay for.
Spax are amazing. With them I can reliably screw into any part of a stair stringer’s riser/tread cut. No splits
I've had good luck mending average kitchen table chairs with GRK finish screws. I often pre-drill because you're connecting spindles to spindles or seats at bizarre angles.
But always ask the question: will the screws I use be worth more than the thing I'm mending?
It just seems to me that coarse drywall screws were designed to hold a baked slab of clay with paper sides to a 2x4 joist or stud. The head is designed to dimple the paper coating just enough to be covered with mud. Beyond that you are flying blind.
I almost never use a nail anymore and my tab for buying GRK screws has gotten out of hand. I recently resurfaced my deck at home and the screw tab alone was $1200 for colored deck screws. I use a lot of treated outdoor lumber for projects; I also use a lot of hardwood for inside projects and rarely use pine or fir. I pore-drill ALL holes and plug them. I even break off #9x3” GRK screws in hardwood. I’ve toyed with using drywall screws for cost reason alone. I’ve yet to find a good place for them. I HATE Phillips screws and given a choice will never use one when I don’t have to do so. I think the GRK, while have me shaking my head overtime I buy them, is the way to go for 90% of my own uses, and I find myself reaching for them without hesitation for anything I do. I’ve looked at trying to buy them in bulk, Amazon, BigBox- wherever/whatever- I haven’t found I can buy them significantly cheaper, and the thought buying a $220 box of screws to save a penny a screw makes my knees weak.
But, when pricing out a custom order- you don’t want to forget what you paid for screws. It increasingly adds up.
Spax are really great when using shorter lenghts in laminate particle board. They dive without popping
I'm curious, the 'patterns' under the heads aren't for back-out grip? Like a lock washer?
I have used SPAX in several applications where they fail: Outdoor redwood furniture. The moist swelling in 8-12 months cracked the hardened fasteners. Harder screws are not always better depending on application.
You are aware that Spax also makes stainless steel screws that aren't hardened the same way?
Yes - very nice analysis. The next level of thought is incorporating the 'properties of materials' re the wood itself: The density/ compressabiity of the wood, together with the measurement of the size of the screw shank determine the precise optimal size of a pilot hole that takes both the shank and compressibility into consideration to maximise the quality of the threads cut by the screw. A soft wood will call for a pilot hole a bit smaller than the shank. Very dense wood wants a hole the full size of the shank.
How about the issue of using coated deck screws and having the treated wood shrink, leaving the heads above the surface. How much trouble will you have going back several months later to drive them in more? Are they more likely to break? I don't want the heads above the surface as they catch the snow shovel in the winter.
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Most morons here in Pennsylvania bury screws so deep you'd be hard pressed to see thrm again
I will advise that drywall are for holding drywall. In a pinch, wood ok. Not exterior-it will rust, break. GRK also is wonky with pressure treated and exterior work...they work great and I built a temp firewood holder. But I needed a firewood shed and when I took about the holder, the GRKs broke heads clean off (my bad was using impact driver).
I literally trust my life to GRK screws. I use them to anchor my pump jack to the roof.
first shop projects i bought GRK because... they were there. didn't realize i spoiled myself until i bought the lowes off brand grk (power grip maybe?) and hated using them every minute. didn't even fit the bits well. Always get GRK now
I build a lot of decks and use GRK exclusively because of the fact that it's the metal not the coating giving the protection.
As well as the other reasons listed here.
The nice thing about not having a coating is if I reuse a screw the coating hasn't come off.
Plus the fact that a 9 or a 10 is an actual 9 or 10 . Not a 10 plus the coating.
I have too many issues with Spax splitting the wood at the end of a board.
Never an issue with the GRK.
James, thank you for sharing your insights. I really appreciate it.
Matthias Wandel recently did some testing on drywall screws. He put them into a few different thicknesses of steel with a pilot hole and let them self tap. He used a self built jig to pull on the head and they held to over 500Kg.
GRK cabinet screws are becoming my favorite for attaching table tops to bases.
I only use grk. They are such great screws. I'll buy spax in a bind, but I've snapped a couple of those. Never snapped a grk.
I will use drywall screws over standard wood screws but the construction screws mentioned, such as GRK, Spax, and Deck mate beat the drywall screws hands down. Since I am still a bit paranoid about splitting the wood, I still drill pilot holes and countersinks. I even slightly countersink the bottom of the hole for clearance of any wood fibers that might be trapped along the shank.
I like to use deck screws for most stuff because of the torx head, my problem with drywall screws is the phillips head if I could get them in torx head I would probably use them
I mostly use pilot and clearance hole predrilling as it gives the maximum contact pressure between the joint contact surfaces and gives to my opinion the maximum strength of the joint no matter the type of screws used.
coated deck screws work well in soft woods. I can't think of a reason to use them in hardwood. For that a nice brass screw in a pre-drilled hole does the trick and looks nice.
With the exception of hanging drywall, I have been using the GRK screws exclusively for years now
Its rare i leave the local big box with anything but spax for screws. Folks think im nuts for paying the price i tell them i aint got time to deal with babying screws in. Very few boxes of grip fast in my fastner drawer.
3:20 I love GRK screws for one main reason: That star head. It makes driving the screws a breeze. Feels like the odds of stripping one are very minimal if at all. I only use them for fastening catwalk ramps or other cat features (cat rooms) on walls, into studs (because I refuse to use wall anchors if at all possible). I laugh though, because I have refurbished a lot of cat trees (third party) and often I see GRK screws used to fasten the posts to the base. THAT is overkill. None of my cat trees have ever failed because I used simple 2-1/2" deck screws that way. Between those, and the 1-1/4" desk screws, I can put together a bomb proof cat tree that even the largest cats can't destroy (other than the carpet and sisal rope).
@sixpotshot
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Spax, Heco, FastenMaster and Simpson are my favourite screws by a mile. Never used GRK - On a different token: do I spot a Tormek T-8 Black 50th Anniversary on the background? Good taste 😜
Drywall screws are brittle, and wood flexing can break them. Also, wood flexing (say, from a sudden load) can weaken the threads cut into the wood. Nails, on the other hand, are flexible, and vinyl coated nails tend to glue themselves in. Consider - even modern wooden roller coasters are nailed. Daily safety inspectors carry a hammer in case they see a nail standing proud. Plus, a nailer is fast. If you really want holding, use square nails.
What about standard exterior construction screws? Similar to drywall screws but coarse thread.
I like watching your videos all the time, but I have a quick question. I just started working with walnut a lot more but have a hard time seeing the pencil line. Do you have a suggestion that might my 72 year old eyes little?
You can buy white pencils on Amazon. I find a marking knife stands out well, too. And it's dead-on accurate.