I took Hebrew from Stephen Ricks at BYU. He taught us that the cumrah used to describe Melchizedek meant high priest and was likely the root word for the name of the Hill Cumorah. Thus describing the hill as a temple setting of the high priesthood.
This resonates with an experience I recently had. I was in Palmyra about a month ago and one of the things mentioned was that the Hill Cumorah was the tallest land mass in the local vicinity of the Smith home. This immediately made me think of mountains and their association with the temple. I had the impression that the plates were buried in Moroni's/Joseph's "local" temple.
I just finished listening to Dave on the Stick of Joseph! I’m ordering his book. His interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount is amazing and is so helpful for our understanding of the Temple.
@@lindamartinez7006I don’t think this discussion or Dave Butler is trying to convince YOU that he is right and his ideas or understanding is THE WAY. Like Nephi did once he heard his daddy’s dream vision experience, he immediately desired to know it for himself- the same he asked his brother to inquire FOR THEMSELVES. I believe not only is the BoM obsessed with the tree, but also with the Theme “INQUIRE of The Lord yourself to know and learn the truth for yourself. To me all that scripture and prophets are is the INVITATION to inquiry of the Lord; Revelation 101. Everyone in class should go to the BoM Lab where you learn Revelation- God Contact 101, Conversing with the Lord 101. and so on. Interestingly, false doctrine however is to expect that all we have to do is follow the prophet and we are saved. O know this kind of tradition flies high with you when looking up of the sort of things you are following. I am not criticizing the talks from Conference and our apostles and the prophet. But like President N said himself “… in the coming days … impossible survival spiritual… without ….. Holy Ghost…” etc. That is THE. all upon us all to learn it for ourselves, which Dave Butler is encouraging. With the Help of the HG we won’t need to fear presumptive false doctrine or misguided private personal assumptions or water bottle crushing admonitions.
43:27... Of course the Book of Mormon is obsessed with the Tree of Life. Every time I hear about the Tree of Life, my thoughts immediately refer to the glorious, living Family Tree and eternal celestial unity and righteousness for all of Godkind. Thanks Greg and Dave for this very edifying chat. Good stuff!!
It seems to me that this is probably the most important thing for people to learn and understand and actually implement to remove the condemnation spoken of in D&C. When you realize the full implications of what this means in actuality you very quickly realize the awful state we are in but are also filled with a tremendous hope because all is not lost. Thank you gentlemen for handling this complex and very sensitive subject so gracefully and delicately. Well done. 👍🏻
Very interesting discussion. I really enjoyed it and appreciate a discussion that doesn’t worry so much about the perceptions of others but focuses more on finding nuggets of truth. Thank you for putting it out there. Like you-I find the BOM terribly relevant to the political climate of today, especially recently. They’ve always said its lessons were for us today. I just didn’t know how similar and even identical it is.
Loved it absolutely loved it. It's opening the scriptures up to me in a whole new light. So very helpful. The scriptures continue to blow me away how multi layered they really are. I'm hoping for another 3hr episode. This is the meat and content I'm craving to find online.
Such a wonderful discussion. I love listing to people discussing the gospel and learning from them. I really enjoyed the episode and cannot wait to hear from David again. I learned so much and am grateful for that. Thank you Greg another wonderful episode.
I love what he says about Nephi telling his brothers that the water was the bitter depths of hell, instead of the Love of God... because from where they were standing, that's what it would have appeared to them to be. The more correct explanation would have made no sense to them. I think that so much of what is explained to us as truth (to quote Obi-Wan), depends greatly on our own point of view. I will often apply the qualifier "as far as we're concerned" when trying to explain doctrine. So many doctrinal paradoxes can be explained that way. I could listen to you two go back and forth all day long. Please do another interview with Brother Butler. Also, I'm going to go buy his book. :)
Sometimes things can have two meanings . I doubt the water is the love of God . Never heard anyone teach that. Where do they hear these things at . The rod is there to pull you out of the filthy water when needed .
@@lindamartinez7006 the angel tells Nephi that the waters represent the love of God. If you don't know this, you'd probably better go back and read it a few more times. "And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God." (1 Nephi 11:25)
@@caguas97 fountain of living waters which lead to the tree of life . Here it is another name for Jesus . Living water living bread true vine tree of life . That seems to be symbolic for Jesus too . Then it says the filthy water that people were swept up in . It seems it is different . Used different .
@@caguas97 used here the tree of life or the waters represent Jesus. Love of God means the same thing Jesus . Jesus is the bread of life the living water tree of life true vine etc . Then later it says the filthy water represents People drowning in the worlds ways and don’t come to the tree of life . The water is symbolic of all those things to describe Jesus . As I named . The filthy water is different . I will get back when I get the scripture . It is late ..
I'm so grateful you had him on here, Greg!! I came to the exact same conclusion that he did many years ago while in the MTC. I was studying chapter 11 in 1 Nephi and the Spirit revealed all of this to me. I couldn't write it all down fast enough to keep up with the personal revelation i was receiving and becoming overwhelmed by all of it and would've kept receiving more had i not actually, and regretfully, asked God to slow it down a bit because i couldn't keep up lol. This was amazing. PLEASE have him back on very soon!!
I think that's another reason we're told constantly to attend the temple. Yes we do work for others beyond the veil, but it's also to learn more each time we attend. Things come together for us, we're more open for knowledge, understanding of the scriptures and personal revelation. I feel we need to do that in order to receive the unsealed portion.
One of the best episodes ever ! Helped me expand my horizons of things that I supposed or thought allowing me the option to I see through an alternate set of lenses. Bring David Butler back he is awesome RUclipsr with enthusiasm and charisma
Great interview. You asked the terrible question. What has happened that we have never received the promised sealed part of the Book of Mormon, something like that. I congratulate you for asking that and even being seemingly very concerned why we have not received. It is obvious that something is very wrong yet for all our studying and learning we have not received over almost 200 years. Thanks for making all of us think. This interview was excellent as it makes you think. I may not agree but he was sincere and well studied.
This is so far over my head I'm drowning. 😮 I will be listening to it at least to it again but I am loving it because it is forcing me to stretch and stretch. Dave speaks so fast I don't catch all the words. That's why listening again. Thank you and hugs Greg, for sharing your knowledge and bringing on interesting guests. I love going through the comments and reading others remarks sharing as well.
@cwicshow Have modern day prophets received the command of Isaiah? Have they been told to speak in such a way that some can understand and others cannot? Some hear reinforcement of the basic doctrine of the family continuously and some cannot hear it? Is that why they have told us it is now impossible to survive spiritually without personal revelation from the holy ghost? I find myself wanting the brethren to speak boldly and clearly to the people. I want them to tell our people not to transition their children. I want them to tell us that promoting any sexual sin through symbols and flags is an abomination. But maybe.... they cannot? Maybe God wants to allow the tares to grow powerful like in the days of Hezekiah? And he wants us to rely on hints and parables?
Go read the talks of the prophet for the last three years. He does drop bombshells, but they are small phrases or sentences. I was reading one and he said if we keep our covenants we can have the ministering of angels. Wait… what?! Then he moves on. It was a phrase in the middle of a list. Real angels not metaphorical angels of our sweet RS president. He is urging us to get the hang of getting regular revelation so we can level up to angels. In the sections of Doc and Cov he urged us sisters to read have some wild promises, one of which is if we keep our temple covenants we can see Christ and God face to face. In this life. Just like Nephi and Lehi. In the New Testament Jesus promises he will manifest himself to us if we keep his commandments and love him. He also promises we will have his spirit poured out on us in the last days. Old men will dream dreams and young men have visions! The possibilities are so exciting!!!! So you’re on to something.
The tares must grow together with the wheat. We knew this would happen and we know why. We must not uproot the tares least the tender wheat also be uprooted. Additionally, if water can be turned into wine then is it too much of a stretch to believe that tares can be turned into wheat? Heavenly Father wants to save all his children. He wants to save wheat and tares or at least as many as will allow themselves to be saved. It is a difficult growing season in these conditions but I trust that all will be made right as truth takes the forefront in the near future. President Nelson said three years ago that the separation is about to occur. What separation? This separation! The separation of the wheat and the tares. We are almost there.
Today in Sunday School there were way too many people trying to defend Laman and Lemuel and saying Nephi probably wasn't that great. Saying he only seemed great because he was doing his own PR in the small plates. I knew this day was coming. It feels like the church is trying to fend off localized apostasy.
Yes, it seems to be happening everywhere at least in Wards of people that I know and those we learn of on podcasts. In my new Ward, I just speak up firmly and with confidence and state that ONLY truth should be taught in the Church of Jesus Christ and that we ALL should push back at ANYTHING that is not truth so that those seeking truth will still be able to find it here .... and that so far seems to be helping my Bishop keep the "narrow" path (all kinds of things were allowed to be promoted on fb pages until he and I had a conversation to help us determine what should not be allowed). Our bulletin board actually ended up here on Greg's podcast. Fortunately, our Stake Pres. took it down.
Are these Salt Lake County wards? I have never experienced such things but have not attended church in Utah but a few times. I hope when people bring up questionable doctrine that someone at least points it out! (Kindly that is...)
This guy understands so much more than the average LDS. I would suggest also looking at the redemption of Zion parable in D&C 101. It tells us about the tower (pillar) not being built nut instead t h e watchmen take the money' to the exchangers ( stocks) . Somerhing we need to take to the Lord to have Him teach us. Thanks for having him on!
Awesome podcast. The tree of life to me seems to show the way to spiritual birth. The Jews seemed to think Jehovah would come to save them at that time from their physical trials when they took the tree out of the temple they stopped learning about eternal principles and focused on worldly saviors. The tree is the key to our spiritual awareness and connection to Heavenly Father and that is the only way to remove our sins that separate us from Him and our blessings from Him.
This is inspiring! I'm not sure how you two came to these results, but it sure motivates me to study the scriptures more. When President Nelson said we could receive revelation, he didn't say anything about having a degree in order to receive it. I think your statement is true when you said you got your confirmation about what you had learned when you and Dave realized you both came up with the same ideas. Thanks to you both❤️
I have learned so much from this discussion. Thank you so much!!!! I understand so much more. We need the tree and Heavenly Mother to complete the sealing of our eternal family ❤️
Excellent work Greg. I’ve read both of Dave’s books. Another great book to add to your temple knowledge is LeGrand Baker and Stephen Ricks seminal work, “Who Shall Ascend into the Hill of the Lord”.
Seems like most Celestial rooms have a giant floral arrangement in the center of the room, underneath a chandelier. just realized that it might be there to represent something. An aha moment for me.
I was a little confused with Isaiah, but you have enlightened my understanding. Yes, the Minorah (the tree of life) is coming to the temple. To fulfill all righteousness.
I think that we are receiving "more scriptures". In the Doc & C. the Lord addresses the Book of Enoch as well as quoting him in the New Testament, as well as him being quoted by other prophets in the Bible. The Lord also mentions the Apocrypha and that there are some things that are wrong but if we use our gift of discernment then we will know which parts are erroneous and which teachings are correct. Many of us as well as those I know of other religions are beginning to discover these forgotten books, not to forget the information from the Dead Sea Scrolls. So it is possible that these are those additional books of scripture that we have been anticipating.
I find it interesting that Josiah et al. were obsessed with worshiping only in Jerusalem, but the very first thing Lehi did after leaving Jerusalem was to build an altar.
The center of the menorah is called the Shamash - it is the one that lights the other six (Christ)- we are the lights that are lit by Christ - it is His light that we shine for others.
So much more can be said about everything! I’ve learned many of these types of things years ago and no one seems to see it. At times I came to the conclusion that’s it’s just for me to see. It’s kind of frustrating. To much for Sunday school. Every story is told to reveal some aspect of the plan of salvation. 1000 thanks for making me feel that I’m not alone. Keep them coming so I don’t feel I’m loosing my mind!😊
Fascinating discussion. Crazy to think that the Brass Serpent (Son) was taken out of the Temple during Hezekiah, and that Ashera (Mother) was taken out of the Temple during Josiah's time... and that Josiah also may have gone after, and taken out Melchizedek Priests? All in order to reform the religion according to their own understanding. Talk about breaking the everlasting covenant and changing the ordinances (Isaiah 24:5)
Ashera is not heavenly Mother . Give me a break . She is a Greek Godess. An idol that was worshipped . Our leaders do not teach this I wish The presidency could see this .
Amazing information! Thank you both for all your time and effort to delve deeper into the meanings of the scriptures! I am awed by your wisdom and knowledge, and so very grateful that you would share it with me and others. It thrills me, probably an effect of the spirit, to learn deeper ideas of the Heavenly Mother, the Temple and especially about our Savior, Jesus Christ! I feel that my heart and mind are ready to find the deeper mysteries of God, so Thank you for helping in my quest!
Interesting perspectives. However, I find it troubling to consider Mary as representing the tree of life, and that people would “fall down” before her (even if she is holding Jesus.) We were not redeemed by a “divine feminine”before whose “feet we humbly bow,” as the hymn says. In April 2023 Elder Bednar said, “And as the word is nourished by faith, it can become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life. What was the symbolism of the tree in Lehi’s vision? The tree can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ.” (Also see his footnote 18.) I prefer what Elder Bednar taught as to what the tree “can” mean: it “can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ;” and that nourishing our faith in Him can “become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life.”
Isaiah calls us trees of righteousness… we are all trees! Think about the temple. They only fell down because they feasted on the fruit!! Those that only tasted the fruit didn’t fall down and were ashamed when people pointed their finger of scorn at them. We worship HF, and JC, but that doesn’t mean early Christian’s didn’t also worship HM. You can’t have the fruit -Christ- without a family tree with a mother and father… when Joseph saw God and Jesus Christ, he was in a grove of trees (HM)… the fruit we bare can be what we do, but it is also our offspring. Pretty much every symbol of the mother can also be used for Christ ( the tree, the fountain) also Christ is likened to a mother hen who gatherers her chicks… the tree of life is a family… whose posterity can go on forever through Christ’s sacrifice. Things can have more than one meaning Christ said He is the light of the world. He also said We (ye) are the light of the world- because we hold up Christ for others to see…of course the divine feminine is a tree…their seeds produce more trees!! The endowment one day may say “ you are now entered into the presence of HF and his son JC, and your HM” are you going to freak out then? Of course mother would be there- when your son returns from his mission, is only the father there to greet his offspring- no, the mom is there. Just some thoughts!!
Also, just another thought- in the temple men get to “act” as Elohim- think about where they do that (behind the veil representing Christ) We as women are able to participate as the divine feminine, or HM it used to be more obvious when (we don’t veil anymore) but that was also at a altar (representing Christ) we are Adam and Eve, yes, our journey is the same…but at times we or others represent heavenly messengers (Peter, James, and John, or HF or HM) they are all at the temple go listen to the sealing ceremony :) I hope these thoughts help as to how Mary is a type of HM.
Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ command us to pray to the Father in the name of His Son. Modern day prophets teach that, and to not pray to a “heavenly mother.” The only revealed doctrine we have about a “heavenly mother” is that we are beloved children of heavenly parents. Others have opinions and explanations for their beliefs and I respect that. But to me it seems blasphemous (and without foundation in scripture or doctrine) to seek solace or succor from any being other than through the Father and the Son. It was He who suffered and descended below all so that he might “succor his people.”
@@TheHappyNarwhalsof course Heavenly Mother. Is there . The song o my father says father Mother may I greet you in your royal courts on high . But that still does not make Heavenly Motherthe tree of life . Because Heavenly Father and heavenly mother did not have the assignment to be a savior . Though it was their plan it was assigned to Jesus Christ to be the savior . His gather sent him to be lifted up on the cross . They did not assign themselves to do this . They can’t because thrh are already resurrected . This is Jesus assignment . That is why you can’t come to the tree of life for resurrection until you ate tested and out of zgods presence . What you teach is false doctrine .
@@lindamartinez7006 not false doctrine, but thanks! We know Jesus is the resurrection and the life, yes... i'm not saying we are saved by the mother- I never put her in that role. I'm saying the mother bares the fruit which is Christ, the love of God, eternal life. The tree is the Holy family- just as our family tree has a mother father and children. Mothers also give life... it's what makes us moms. Twist that how you want to make me an apostate :)
Turning turning shall be my delight, 'till by turning, turning we come 'round right. - Simple Gifts, Shaker hymn (it's about repentance, not dancing, btw) by turning, turning we 'shant be ashamed....
1:12:50 but let’s be real here, who gives life? Women. So the mother who gives life to our spirits and the mother who gives life to the savior of the world who would give eternal life to all men… I mean it tracks for me.
That seems to be a big part of Isaiah and Nephi and Lehi's invitation...the invitation of the Book of Mormon...that we all be prophets in secret and that we accept Heavenly Father and the Savior's governance of The Kingdom as They will but we keep our focus on the invitation to participate with The Tree of Life...and allow for the visions of life to build line upon line precept upon precept.
Quick correction. Alma doesnt step down from his position as head of the Church, he retains that position and steps down from his position as Cheif Judge, or head of the state
It seems that we are slowly accepting the doctrines that Nephi and Lehi left Jerusalem for a promised land to pursue...an understanding of Heavenly Father and Christ are not yet elevated to a point that we are ready for the next steps. I do wonder how much of the role of priestesshood is involved in that understanding.
You both helped me find an additional scripture about us becoming light. See Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Once we become light we are to bring others to righteousness or light. The gathering of Israel related to missionary work, testifying of truth, repentance and coming to Christ our Savior. Thanks for some interesting thoughts and discussion.
Thank you for commenting. Dave is referenced by and followed by several Latter-day Saint scholars and was just referenced by the prominent author, Margaret Barker in her latest book. You may not agree with him, but I think he knows more than you think.
Agreed! It seems too much guess work for my taste. I think he spent too much time learning greek to be able to read the greek bible instead of studying everything else.
Also have to wonder if the great and abominable church for Nephi was the Deuteronomists...I definitely believe it is any organization that fights against the Apostles of the Lamb of God...but one of those organizations seemed to be the scholars and scribes of Nephi's time...I wonder where else we see that manifest.
Wow thank you for thus. I have always had trouble understanding the bibke and most members i know are the same so this for me was so eye opening. So much kniwledge. Thank you so much for this video.
I just want to say, if we were better ministering people, we'd not be "missing" so much, and we'd be more prepared to receive more from God, like the sealed portion of the B of M.
I just watched Moana and noticed that she was eager to fulfill her role of restoring the heart of tafiti...but wasn't able to proceed until she had the necessary resources...i see us in that pattern...we are eager and desirous and learning...but what lack we yet...
have to think that perhaps our misunderstanding of Isaiah is also another aspect of our delay in receiving more of the plates as well as appreciating the Bible and The Book of Mormon as one stick....not just a casual acknowledgement of the Bible and preference for the Book of Mormon as that is not a unified stick...how can we get more when we don't fully appreciate the whole we already have...we wouldn't appreciate it if we didn't have the proper perspective.
I shoot a bow with a 5-pin sight to help aim...each pin represents a 10yrd distance to hold...20yrds...30yrds....40yrds...etc...but there is no pin set for the 5yrd distances in between the pins so I use the invisible pins in between to aim for those distances....I think to some degree we have to rely on the known principles in the Book of Mormon and Bible and the revelations of the Prophets like Isaiah, Nephi, Lehi...etc to visualize the true principles that are not overly written
His train are members of his family - In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
It is amazing that Greg came to mostly similar understandings of the scriptures as Dave without the incredibly complex highly scholarly study that Dave has done? I wrote a not yet published book, Return to the Garden of Eden, God ,Will Make us Immortal " that has a chapter about angels and their relationship with man. I would love to hear Dave's insight on Seraphim, because they are the problematic being in my explanation of who angels are, . , the wings, etc.. A comment Dave made. Paul is a jerk in his treatment of those going to have others circumcised. Paul was in absolute war with the Jewish Christians who taught parts or all of the law of Moses was necessary to be saved. He understood better than most that circumcision, kosher diet, etc. do not require a person to change from their spirit to be saved, delivered , from sin. Paul knew better than most that not killing someone does not save you, because you still have hate, jealousy , envy, back biting, etc. However, to love all people does deliver you from sin. Paul knew better than most that not committing adultery does not deliver, save , anyone from sin, because you still lust; lust to fornicate, lust to commit adultery, lust after sports, hunting, work, in other words, lust after other gods. The sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is more perfect that the sermon on the mount recorded in the Bible, because Christ makes it clear in the Book of Mormon that every jot and tittle of the law of Moses is fulfilled in Him, and has an end. When you understand Paul you know the sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is by no one else but Jesus Christ. That is why Paul was so upset that they didn't get it. To send a message that circumcision is somehow necessary for salvation, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, was the wrong message to send. Just as stepping away from the Gentile converts table under pier pressure, because they ate nonkosher food. I would love to write a book, Understanding Paul. On the fruit of the Tree of Life being Christ or His mother. Does Christ have the love that He has osmosis of the cosmos?, or does He have the love He has osmosis from both His heavenly Father and heavenly mother? I was hoping you would bring up the passage in the Book of Mormon that says His mother after the manner of flesh, showing Christ has a mother after the manner of His spirit. You know how you try and imagine the thought process of a person who is above average, like Elon Musk, for example. Dave's reading of any scriptures, or any literature at all, must be a linguistic tornado in comparison to the median and above median person.
To me it seems like the reason the church is under condemnation in regards to the Book of Mormon and the D&C is more a matter of unbelief than esoteric knowledge of the details. We believe IN the book, but we don't believe it. When Nephi says "if you repent and are diligent in seeking the Lord will teach you directly" we say - "that's may be true for you Nephi, but Laman and Lemuel had it right. The Lord doesn't talk to me that directly". There are many other principles in the BOM and D&C that it seems to me we treat with unbelief. Supposedly we will get more when we shed the unbelief and not only say but do as the scripture suggest (i.e., when by our faith we replicate the experiences of the prophets)
During the conversation there was discussion about the dream and the filthy waters. I am not a Hebrew speaker but trying to look up what filthy might be one word is צאי TSOW. This also can refer to menstrual blood. See Stongs concordance. The Hebrew for son is Ben. Or beit nun. Conceptually the house continues. We are supposed to be sons and daughters of god, yes? So an unfertilized egg is washed away in menstrual blood. Now, one of the concepts associated with the nun in the word Ben is an aborted fetus. A future king or god that perhaps tasted the fruit and was ashamed. Somewhere I read that a woman’s flow is her body mourning the life that wasn’t. Something that has a logic to it. Thanks for the great content.
yes very outstanding , very much a sprit of what is important about being familiar with Bofm and temples as i understand ignorance is no salvation from the law
You mention of heavenly mother. This is a little off topic but in Alma 42:24 Alma assigns a gender to justice and mercy " For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own". I suspect that justice is administered by God the father and mercy although it comes from Christ's atonement, it is administered by Heaveny Mother. Your thoughts?
It may be a language structure question. For example, in Spanish, justice and mercy are both feminine. Emotions and nouns are assigned gender in Spanish. We assign ships, planes, cars etc. a feminine gender in English. Don’t know why since you can’t lift a ship up to check what body parts they have underneath 😂(kidding). Simply put: Maybe in the Nephite language Justice is masculine and mercy is feminine. 🤷♂️ my two cents.
This is facinating stuff! I would love to know where to find additional resources by David and those referenced in your discussion. Looking forward to part 2!
Don’t the scriptures state explicitly that the tree represents Mary? And the fruit represent Jesus. There’s a very clear parallel in how both the tree and Mary is described.
4 And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken? 5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father. 6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. 7 And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that IT(it=tree) is the Son of God.
Also considering the roles of historians and scribes and Joseph Smith's reference to those who assume they have authority...they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. We can see this expressed all through the biblical history and have to wonder how often church historians succumb to it.
I had a thought and want to get your perspective… Acts 5:30, it states that Jesus was hanged on a tree, could that symbolically mean that Jesus died in his mother’s arms?
I like all of this representation except it feels off to me a little bit. Can anyone tell me where is Heavenly Father’s symbology in this Tree of Life? We,should have the Oneness with God the Father and His companion, our Heavenly Mother and Jesus (also having an eternal wife) being born of Mary and the Father and the Holy Spirit(does he have a divine female companion also)? If we are all to become one, then we cannot leave out Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary and the Father and Joseph earthly raising Jesus father. Spinning this without the whole picture isn’t complete enough for me. Where is Our Heavenly Father symbology in all this. I really like every thing, but, that feels like it is missing, unless, I misinterpreted what was being said. I do not want the culture of the Church to go woke, pushing forward the divine feminine as the leader above all in the Tree of Life, ever. I want the partnership, the yin to yang etc. can anyone clarify this for me. I am a woman, therefore, appreciate the divine attention of women in these things, but, not at the expense of the divine masculine. My Heavenly Father needs some good vibes here!
I can see God as the light/the whiteness of the tree and the fruit! God could be that glowing light that brings all to the tree to become one. The mother tree glows white and pure, the fruit is glowing white and pure and the living waters are on the tree side are pure in Gods over flowing light. That came to me in my pondering, but, this would give me peace to the symbology of the Tree of Life dream! Gods highest vibrational light frequency brings all in to harmony as one in the Tree of life would makes sense to me.
Good question. My perspective is personally being able to see God as the architect. Especially when we know that all of this is Gods plan. When I have that in the forefront of my mind, then All the imagery of the other symbols just become a role in the entire plan. - The tree = The Love of God - The fruit = The son of God - The path = The way to God - The rod = Gods word - The people = Gods children - The great and spacious = Gods enemy - The filthy waters = Gods sadness This is how I see God in everything. It’s all God.
God is in all of it because it is His plan of salvation! Also, perhaps Lehi is a type because after he feasts on the atonement, he tries to get his family to the tree- thus as head of his family, bringing to pass Fathers work and glory (to bring to pass our eternal life and immortality) maybe he’s also a type of Christ, then too. Dave points out here and in another interview that you grasp or cling to the rod four times on your way to the tree of life (think of endowment and the four times you grasp HF)
Is Dave saying, "Ashira" or Asherah? Google says: "Asherah, along with Astarte and Anath, was one of the three great goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon. In Canaanite religion her primary role was that of mother goddess. Canaanites associated Asherah with sacred trees, an association also found in the Israelite tradition". However, when put in conjunction with Ashtoreth you get: "Ashtoreth, Asherah, Astarte, and Ishtar are all manifestations of the same goddess who was worshipped in different regions, where people were divided by language and geography. Ashtoreth (a Hebrew name) was the supreme female deity of the Phoenicians, associated with Baal, the supreme god." I can see the Tree of L having dual meaning: Jesus and women, however, I have a problem with comparing M in heaven with an idol who was surrounded with homosexuals, eunuchs and transgender persons (as written in the Old Testament). Good fruit can't come from an evil tree so are you saying that a good tree can have fruit that turns bad (Jacob and the allegory) and you can still use an ancient idol (Ashtoreth) that worship of, caused the destruction of the H of Israel, as a representation of a M in heaven? If Asherah/Ashtaroth initially was a representation (such as the serpent was for Christ) and then went terribly awry, then like the PRIDE use of the rainbow, we should let it go until the great "cleansing" so that it's new perception doesn't lead the ignorant down "strange roads", thus, making us think back on your episode of the rainbow and the Come Follow Me study guide. I just REALLY think that the connection between the two women is disjointed so I'm hoping you can help me understand how it is not. Hope to hear from you either here or I will see how one emails you or David because I'm not sure how to get back to this comment after others pile up on top of this one???
I’ve had to explain this several times, but I’ll do it again. You need to look at it through the other side of the glass. Was the Canaanite goddess a corruption of the Divine feminine?
Then EXPLAIN IT more clearly IN a SEGMENT. I had to listen again and the KEY was the “yode” he said only briefly, that changed who is being spoken of: the idol or the Mother. This leads us wholly down another path of thought; Thankfully! I wish that he had put more emphasis on the VERY important difference because initially it really affected my trust in the rest of his information. Scripture Central’s short video on this subject really left us thinking that ALL these figurines that they have found was a good thing regarding Asherah, skipping that maybe they were actually the evidences of a warped ideology (idol worship surrounding itself with homosexuality, eunuchs and transgenders ) that caused the eventual destruction of nearly the whole House of Israel. They made no distinction between the Asherah with the YODE (caps merely for emphasis 🙂) . The way Mother in Heaven worship is taking hold in the Church (and the USA), this would be a great segment to discuss so that women will KNOW the difference. Michael B. Rush addresses visions that people have had and are having regarding a beautiful woman in white believed to be Mary or M in heaven and have received instructions from her. Women are now praying to her! 🤦♀️ Now that I know about the yode, I plan on listening once again AND taking notes because I received SO MANY new incites about where the church is headed down seemingly non-traditional ways BUT if you look at scriptures we’ve read a million times with this new paradigm, we will see the messages meant to get us through these mists of darkness and strange roads. Let Dave know he has inspired me! 😊
Ugh I had a feeling that take would be brought up. That you imagine a pre-existing tradition still holds truth to some Eternal Truth. They. Are. Not. On. The. Same. Level. This is how Satan and his government are cloaking themselves behind Christian theology.
Also interesting that when Jesus tells the pharasees and or Sadducees that they would kill the prophets also...it may have been less about the idea that they were bad and more that they were of the same belief system that lead to killing the prophets. They were contrary to the meanings of the prophesying of Isaiah
Hint Nephi did not come up with the idea to cut off Labands head . The Lord commanded him to do it . He did not want to do it . And he gives Nephi and explanation why he needs to do it and that he put him right into his hands .
The LDS want to talk about the tree of life , iron rods, covenant paths, temples , Book of Mormon geography, anything but the cross . The cross is where the gospel is. The cross is where the Christian finds Grace.
interesting thought - search provoking. I like D J Butler here with you better- The Stick of Joseph guys are a bit immature and too goofy. You get right to the point. Your sober discussion with Dave is just that.
![Tee Grizzley - Robbery 8 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/34_vkNV6wrU/mqdefault.jpg)
I took Hebrew from Stephen Ricks at BYU. He taught us that the cumrah used to describe Melchizedek meant high priest and was likely the root word for the name of the Hill Cumorah. Thus describing the hill as a temple setting of the high priesthood.
That’s amazing.😊
This resonates with an experience I recently had. I was in Palmyra about a month ago and one of the things mentioned was that the Hill Cumorah was the tallest land mass in the local vicinity of the Smith home. This immediately made me think of mountains and their association with the temple. I had the impression that the plates were buried in Moroni's/Joseph's "local" temple.
I just finished listening to Dave on the Stick of Joseph! I’m ordering his book. His interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount is amazing and is so helpful for our understanding of the Temple.
hi is it available on line please as items dont really make it through postage to me out in South Africa
@@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth I was only able to find it in paperback on Amazon. Sorry my friend
Does he have a podcast? Where did you figure out how to listen to him?
@@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth I have only been able to find it via hard copy
@@9keveryday823 i listen to the Stick of Joseph podcast and he was on there. I don’t think he has his own.
So grateful for men like the both of you, who bring us further knowledge.
You mean false doctrine
@@lindamartinez7006can you do more than just launch an attack without more why you ‘believe’ your claim?
@@lindamartinez7006I don’t think this discussion or Dave Butler is trying to convince YOU that he is right and his ideas or understanding is THE WAY. Like Nephi did once he heard his daddy’s dream vision experience, he immediately desired to know it for himself- the same he asked his brother to inquire FOR THEMSELVES. I believe not only is the BoM obsessed with the tree, but also with the Theme “INQUIRE of The Lord yourself to know and learn the truth for yourself. To me all that scripture and prophets are is the INVITATION to inquiry of the Lord; Revelation 101. Everyone in class should go to the BoM Lab where you learn Revelation- God Contact 101, Conversing with the Lord 101. and so on. Interestingly, false doctrine however is to expect that all we have to do is follow the prophet and we are saved. O know this kind of tradition flies high with you when looking up of the sort of things you are following. I am not criticizing the talks from Conference and our apostles and the prophet. But like President N said himself “… in the coming days … impossible survival spiritual… without ….. Holy Ghost…” etc. That is THE. all upon us all to learn it for ourselves, which Dave Butler is encouraging. With the Help of the HG we won’t need to fear presumptive false doctrine or misguided private personal assumptions or water bottle crushing admonitions.
Bring David Butler back! Thank you for an instructive discussion of subjects that are of such great interest and relevance.
43:27... Of course the Book of Mormon is obsessed with the Tree of Life. Every time I hear about the Tree of Life, my thoughts immediately refer to the glorious, living Family Tree and eternal celestial unity and righteousness for all of Godkind.
Thanks Greg and Dave for this very edifying chat. Good stuff!!
You're welcome
That is the end result . Celestial glory and s that you inherit . But the tree of life is still Jesus Christ . Not Heavenly mother .
It seems to me that this is probably the most important thing for people to learn and understand and actually implement to remove the condemnation spoken of in D&C. When you realize the full implications of what this means in actuality you very quickly realize the awful state we are in but are also filled with a tremendous hope because all is not lost. Thank you gentlemen for handling this complex and very sensitive subject so gracefully and delicately. Well done. 👍🏻
@@lindamartinez7006Agreed. I am not sure what i think about all this new stuff coming out lately.
I was pondering on Laman and 53:55 I find this podcast the next day. Thank You.
I love that we are FINALLY asking the important questions! Thank you both!
Thanks for listening!
Very interesting discussion. I really enjoyed it and appreciate a discussion that doesn’t worry so much about the perceptions of others but focuses more on finding nuggets of truth. Thank you for putting it out there.
Like you-I find the BOM terribly relevant to the political climate of today, especially recently.
They’ve always said its lessons were for us today.
I just didn’t know how similar and even identical it is.
Loved it absolutely loved it. It's opening the scriptures up to me in a whole new light. So very helpful. The scriptures continue to blow me away how multi layered they really are.
I'm hoping for another 3hr episode. This is the meat and content I'm craving to find online.
After watching this I realize how much I don't know. Thank you for another great lesson?
Such a wonderful discussion. I love listing to people discussing the gospel and learning from them. I really enjoyed the episode and cannot wait to hear from David again. I learned so much and am grateful for that. Thank you Greg another wonderful episode.
I love what he says about Nephi telling his brothers that the water was the bitter depths of hell, instead of the Love of God... because from where they were standing, that's what it would have appeared to them to be. The more correct explanation would have made no sense to them. I think that so much of what is explained to us as truth (to quote Obi-Wan), depends greatly on our own point of view. I will often apply the qualifier "as far as we're concerned" when trying to explain doctrine. So many doctrinal paradoxes can be explained that way.
I could listen to you two go back and forth all day long. Please do another interview with Brother Butler.
Also, I'm going to go buy his book. :)
I'll be sure to invite Dave back. And yes, be sure to buy his book. It is a great read!
Sometimes things can have two meanings . I doubt the water is the love of God . Never heard anyone teach that. Where do they hear these things at . The rod is there to pull you out of the filthy water when needed .
@@lindamartinez7006 the angel tells Nephi that the waters represent the love of God. If you don't know this, you'd probably better go back and read it a few more times.
"And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God." (1 Nephi 11:25)
@@caguas97 fountain of living waters which lead to the tree of life . Here it is another name for Jesus . Living water living bread true vine tree of life . That seems to be symbolic for Jesus too . Then it says the filthy water that people were swept up in . It seems it is different . Used different .
@@caguas97 used here the tree of life or the waters represent Jesus. Love of God means the same thing Jesus . Jesus is the bread of life the living water tree of life true vine etc . Then later it says the filthy water represents People drowning in the worlds ways and don’t come to the tree of life . The water is symbolic of all those things to describe Jesus . As I named . The filthy water is different . I will get back when I get the scripture . It is late ..
I'm so grateful you had him on here, Greg!! I came to the exact same conclusion that he did many years ago while in the MTC.
I was studying chapter 11 in 1 Nephi and the Spirit revealed all of this to me.
I couldn't write it all down fast enough to keep up with the personal revelation i was receiving and becoming overwhelmed by all of it and would've kept receiving more had i not actually, and regretfully, asked God to slow it down a bit because i couldn't keep up lol.
This was amazing.
PLEASE have him back on very soon!!
I think that's another reason we're told constantly to attend the temple. Yes we do work for others beyond the veil, but it's also to learn more each time we attend. Things come together for us, we're more open for knowledge, understanding of the scriptures and personal revelation. I feel we need to do that in order to receive the unsealed portion.
“Dijon” yes please Brother Buttler’s thoughts are off the hook. His books are well worth the cost of admission. Great stuff fantastic show
One of the best episodes ever ! Helped me expand my horizons of things that I supposed or thought allowing me the option to I see through an alternate set of lenses. Bring David Butler back he is awesome RUclipsr with enthusiasm and charisma
Great interview. You asked the terrible question. What has happened that we have never received the promised sealed part of the Book of Mormon, something like that. I congratulate you for asking that and even being seemingly very concerned why we have not received. It is obvious that something is very wrong yet for all our studying and learning we have not received over almost 200 years. Thanks for making all of us think. This interview was excellent as it makes you think. I may not agree but he was sincere and well studied.
This is so far over my head I'm drowning. 😮 I will be listening
to it at least to it again but I am loving it because it is forcing me to stretch and stretch. Dave speaks so fast I don't catch all the words. That's why listening again. Thank you and hugs Greg, for sharing your knowledge and bringing on interesting guests.
I love going through the comments and reading others remarks sharing as well.
Dave is awesome. I started his first book just reading the first 10 pages it made me go do about 2-3 hours of looking things up.
Same for me
Yesss!!! I can’t tell you how excited I am for this from the two of you!👏🏼
I think you’re going to enjoy it.
@cwicshow
Have modern day prophets received the command of Isaiah? Have they been told to speak in such a way that some can understand and others cannot? Some hear reinforcement of the basic doctrine of the family continuously and some cannot hear it? Is that why they have told us it is now impossible to survive spiritually without personal revelation from the holy ghost?
I find myself wanting the brethren to speak boldly and clearly to the people. I want them to tell our people not to transition their children. I want them to tell us that promoting any sexual sin through symbols and flags is an abomination. But maybe.... they cannot? Maybe God wants to allow the tares to grow powerful like in the days of Hezekiah? And he wants us to rely on hints and parables?
Go read the talks of the prophet for the last three years. He does drop bombshells, but they are small phrases or sentences. I was reading one and he said if we keep our covenants we can have the ministering of angels. Wait… what?! Then he moves on. It was a phrase in the middle of a list. Real angels not metaphorical angels of our sweet RS president. He is urging us to get the hang of getting regular revelation so we can level up to angels. In the sections of Doc and Cov he urged us sisters to read have some wild promises, one of which is if we keep our temple covenants we can see Christ and God face to face. In this life. Just like Nephi and Lehi.
In the New Testament Jesus promises he will manifest himself to us if we keep his commandments and love him. He also promises we will have his spirit poured out on us in the last days. Old men will dream dreams and young men have visions! The possibilities are so exciting!!!!
So you’re on to something.
Scary scary scary to think of this
The tares must grow together with the wheat. We knew this would happen and we know why. We must not uproot the tares least the tender wheat also be uprooted. Additionally, if water can be turned into wine then is it too much of a stretch to believe that tares can be turned into wheat? Heavenly Father wants to save all his children. He wants to save wheat and tares or at least as many as will allow themselves to be saved. It is a difficult growing season in these conditions but I trust that all will be made right as truth takes the forefront in the near future. President Nelson said three years ago that the separation is about to occur. What separation? This separation! The separation of the wheat and the tares. We are almost there.
Today in Sunday School there were way too many people trying to defend Laman and Lemuel and saying Nephi probably wasn't that great. Saying he only seemed great because he was doing his own PR in the small plates. I knew this day was coming. It feels like the church is trying to fend off localized apostasy.
Yes, it seems to be happening everywhere at least in Wards of people that I know and those we learn of on podcasts. In my new Ward, I just speak up firmly and with confidence and state that ONLY truth should be taught in the Church of Jesus Christ and that we ALL should push back at ANYTHING that is not truth so that those seeking truth will still be able to find it here .... and that so far seems to be helping my Bishop keep the "narrow" path (all kinds of things were allowed to be promoted on fb pages until he and I had a conversation to help us determine what should not be allowed). Our bulletin board actually ended up here on Greg's podcast. Fortunately, our Stake Pres. took it down.
Yes I heard that this Sunday as well.
@@tanyarobinson1146 it's crazy. A lot of people bringing it up
Are these Salt Lake County wards? I have never experienced such things but have not attended church in Utah but a few times. I hope when people bring up questionable doctrine that someone at least points it out! (Kindly that is...)
This guy understands so much more than the average LDS. I would suggest also looking at the redemption of Zion parable in D&C 101. It tells us about the tower (pillar) not being built nut instead t h e watchmen take the money' to the exchangers ( stocks) . Somerhing we need to take to the Lord to have Him teach us. Thanks for having him on!
Awesome podcast. The tree of life to me seems to show the way to spiritual birth. The Jews seemed to think Jehovah would come to save them at that time from their physical trials when they took the tree out of the temple they stopped learning about eternal principles and focused on worldly saviors. The tree is the key to our spiritual awareness and connection to Heavenly Father and that is the only way to remove our sins that separate us from Him and our blessings from Him.
This is inspiring! I'm not sure how you two came to these results, but it sure motivates me to study the scriptures more.
When President Nelson said we could receive revelation, he didn't say anything about having a degree in order to receive it. I think your statement is true when you said you got your confirmation about what you had learned when you and Dave realized you both came up with the same ideas.
Thanks to you both❤️
I have learned so much from this discussion. Thank you so much!!!! I understand so much more. We need the tree and Heavenly Mother to complete the sealing of our eternal family ❤️
Excellent work Greg. I’ve read both of Dave’s books. Another great book to add to your temple knowledge is LeGrand Baker and Stephen Ricks seminal work, “Who Shall Ascend into the Hill of the Lord”.
One of my "anchor" books.!
It gives new meaning to the statement that every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled.
Seems like most Celestial rooms have a giant floral arrangement in the center of the room, underneath a chandelier. just realized that it might be there to represent something. An aha moment for me.
I was a little confused with Isaiah, but you have enlightened my understanding. Yes, the Minorah (the tree of life) is coming to the temple. To fulfill all righteousness.
I believe we don’t have enough faith in Christ to receive more scriptures! Everything points to the Temple…. Jesus Christ.
I think that we are receiving "more scriptures". In the Doc & C. the Lord addresses the Book of Enoch as well as quoting him in the New Testament, as well as him being quoted by other prophets in the Bible. The Lord also mentions the Apocrypha and that there are some things that are wrong but if we use our gift of discernment then we will know which parts are erroneous and which teachings are correct. Many of us as well as those I know of other religions are beginning to discover these forgotten books, not to forget the information from the Dead Sea Scrolls. So it is possible that these are those additional books of scripture that we have been anticipating.
@@lipstillmond I believe we haven’t received anymore scriptures from the Lord bc we need more faith.
Fantastic guest and discussion….
I find it interesting that Josiah et al. were obsessed with worshiping only in Jerusalem, but the very first thing Lehi did after leaving Jerusalem was to build an altar.
The center of the menorah is called the Shamash - it is the one that lights the other six (Christ)- we are the lights that are lit by Christ - it is His light that we shine for others.
So much more can be said about everything! I’ve learned many of these types of things years ago and no one seems to see it. At times I came to the conclusion that’s it’s just for me to see. It’s kind of frustrating. To much for Sunday school. Every story is told to reveal some aspect of the plan of salvation. 1000 thanks for making me feel that I’m not alone. Keep them coming so I don’t feel I’m loosing my mind!😊
Fascinating discussion. Crazy to think that the Brass Serpent (Son) was taken out of the Temple during Hezekiah, and that Ashera (Mother) was taken out of the Temple during Josiah's time... and that Josiah also may have gone after, and taken out Melchizedek Priests? All in order to reform the religion according to their own understanding. Talk about breaking the everlasting covenant and changing the ordinances (Isaiah 24:5)
Exactly what’s happening today.
Shame on you for teaching false doctrines .
@@lindamartinez7006 Which false doctrine are you referring to?
Ashera is not heavenly Mother . Give me a break . She is a Greek Godess. An idol that was worshipped . Our leaders do not teach this I wish The presidency could see this .
What book are you taking this from ?
Excellent commentary. More like this please
Your definitely scholars. 👍 Your knowledge is beyond what most PHD's!!
This is so good
Glad you enjoy it! it's a great spiritual and intellectual escape.
Amazing information! Thank you both for all your time and effort to delve deeper into the meanings of the scriptures! I am awed by your wisdom and knowledge, and so very grateful that you would share it with me and others. It thrills me, probably an effect of the spirit, to learn deeper ideas of the Heavenly Mother, the Temple and especially about our Savior, Jesus Christ! I feel that my heart and mind are ready to find the deeper mysteries of God, so Thank you for helping in my quest!
Glad this was helpful.
Please have have him back, that was a great discussion 😊.
Will do!
GREAT stuff, gents.
Great show guys !
I loved this!!
So freaking good!!!!!
Awesome discussion!
Interesting perspectives. However, I find it troubling to consider Mary as representing the tree of life, and that people would “fall down” before her (even if she is holding Jesus.) We were not redeemed by a “divine feminine”before whose “feet we humbly bow,” as the hymn says.
In April 2023 Elder Bednar said, “And as the word is nourished by faith, it can become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life. What was the symbolism of the tree in Lehi’s vision? The tree can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ.” (Also see his footnote 18.)
I prefer what Elder Bednar taught as to what the tree “can” mean: it “can be considered as a representation of Jesus Christ;” and that nourishing our faith in Him can “become a tree springing up in us unto everlasting life.”
Isaiah calls us trees of righteousness… we are all trees! Think about the temple. They only fell down because they feasted on the fruit!! Those that only tasted the fruit didn’t fall down and were ashamed when people pointed their finger of scorn at them. We worship HF, and JC, but that doesn’t mean early Christian’s didn’t also worship HM. You can’t have the fruit -Christ- without a family tree with a mother and father… when Joseph saw God and Jesus Christ, he was in a grove of trees (HM)… the fruit we bare can be what we do, but it is also our offspring. Pretty much every symbol of the mother can also be used for Christ ( the tree, the fountain) also Christ is likened to a mother hen who gatherers her chicks… the tree of life is a family… whose posterity can go on forever through Christ’s sacrifice. Things can have more than one meaning Christ said He is the light of the world. He also said We (ye) are the light of the world- because we hold up Christ for others to see…of course the divine feminine is a tree…their seeds produce more trees!! The endowment one day may say “ you are now entered into the presence of HF and his son JC, and your HM” are you going to freak out then? Of course mother would be there- when your son returns from his mission, is only the father there to greet his offspring- no, the mom is there. Just some thoughts!!
Also, just another thought- in the temple men get to “act” as Elohim- think about where they do that (behind the veil representing Christ) We as women are able to participate as the divine feminine, or HM it used to be more obvious when (we don’t veil anymore) but that was also at a altar (representing Christ) we are Adam and Eve, yes, our journey is the same…but at times we or others represent heavenly messengers (Peter, James, and John, or HF or HM) they are all at the temple go listen to the sealing ceremony :) I hope these thoughts help as to how Mary is a type of HM.
Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ command us to pray to the Father in the name of His Son. Modern day prophets teach that, and to not pray to a “heavenly mother.” The only revealed doctrine we have about a “heavenly mother” is that we are beloved children of heavenly parents.
Others have opinions and explanations for their beliefs and I respect that. But to me it seems blasphemous (and without foundation in scripture or doctrine) to seek solace or succor from any being other than through the Father and the Son. It was He who suffered and descended below all so that he might “succor his people.”
@@TheHappyNarwhalsof course Heavenly Mother. Is there . The song o my father says father Mother may I greet you in your royal courts on high . But that still does not make Heavenly Motherthe tree of life . Because Heavenly Father and heavenly mother did not have the assignment to be a savior . Though it was their plan it was assigned to Jesus Christ to be the savior . His gather sent him to be lifted up on the cross . They did not assign themselves to do this . They can’t because thrh are already resurrected . This is Jesus assignment . That is why you can’t come to the tree of life for resurrection until you ate tested and out of zgods presence . What you teach is false doctrine .
@@lindamartinez7006 not false doctrine, but thanks! We know Jesus is the resurrection and the life, yes... i'm not saying we are saved by the mother- I never put her in that role. I'm saying the mother bares the fruit which is Christ, the love of God, eternal life. The tree is the Holy family- just as our family tree has a mother father and children. Mothers also give life... it's what makes us moms. Twist that how you want to make me an apostate :)
Turning turning shall be my delight, 'till by turning, turning we come 'round right. - Simple Gifts, Shaker hymn (it's about repentance, not dancing, btw) by turning, turning we 'shant be ashamed....
1:12:50 but let’s be real here, who gives life? Women. So the mother who gives life to our spirits and the mother who gives life to the savior of the world who would give eternal life to all men… I mean it tracks for me.
That seems to be a big part of Isaiah and Nephi and Lehi's invitation...the invitation of the Book of Mormon...that we all be prophets in secret and that we accept Heavenly Father and the Savior's governance of The Kingdom as They will but we keep our focus on the invitation to participate with The Tree of Life...and allow for the visions of life to build line upon line precept upon precept.
Well done Greg. If I were LDS, this would be useful.
There’s a fix for that :)
@@brandonaso Unfortunately not, but I appreciate the sentiment.
Quick correction. Alma doesnt step down from his position as head of the Church, he retains that position and steps down from his position as Cheif Judge, or head of the state
Great nuanced discussion.
Thanks you!
It seems that we are slowly accepting the doctrines that Nephi and Lehi left Jerusalem for a promised land to pursue...an understanding of Heavenly Father and Christ are not yet elevated to a point that we are ready for the next steps. I do wonder how much of the role of priestesshood is involved in that understanding.
You both helped me find an additional scripture about us becoming light.
See Daniel 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Once we become light we are to bring others to righteousness or light. The gathering of Israel related to missionary work, testifying of truth, repentance and coming to Christ our Savior. Thanks for some interesting thoughts and discussion.
I'm sure David is well meaning but he knows just enough to get things colossally wrong.
Thank you for commenting. Dave is referenced by and followed by several Latter-day Saint scholars and was just referenced by the prominent author, Margaret Barker in her latest book. You may not agree with him, but I think he knows more than you think.
Agreed! It seems too much guess work for my taste. I think he spent too much time learning greek to be able to read the greek bible instead of studying everything else.
This is exciting and is what I been waiting for!!❤❤thanks
Also have to wonder if the great and abominable church for Nephi was the Deuteronomists...I definitely believe it is any organization that fights against the Apostles of the Lamb of God...but one of those organizations seemed to be the scholars and scribes of Nephi's time...I wonder where else we see that manifest.
What a fantastic guest! Thanks to you both!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow thank you for thus. I have always had trouble understanding the bibke and most members i know are the same so this for me was so eye opening. So much kniwledge. Thank you so much for this video.
1:26:00 The 3 Nephi version is even called the Sermon at the Temple in Church literature.
I just want to say, if we were better ministering people, we'd not be "missing" so much, and we'd be more prepared to receive more from God, like the sealed portion of the B of M.
I just watched Moana and noticed that she was eager to fulfill her role of restoring the heart of tafiti...but wasn't able to proceed until she had the necessary resources...i see us in that pattern...we are eager and desirous and learning...but what lack we yet...
have to think that perhaps our misunderstanding of Isaiah is also another aspect of our delay in receiving more of the plates as well as appreciating the Bible and The Book of Mormon as one stick....not just a casual acknowledgement of the Bible and preference for the Book of Mormon as that is not a unified stick...how can we get more when we don't fully appreciate the whole we already have...we wouldn't appreciate it if we didn't have the proper perspective.
I think the Brother of Jared vision is a key to receiving the more...when we are seeing with the eye of faith...the full body will be revealed.
I shoot a bow with a 5-pin sight to help aim...each pin represents a 10yrd distance to hold...20yrds...30yrds....40yrds...etc...but there is no pin set for the 5yrd distances in between the pins so I use the invisible pins in between to aim for those distances....I think to some degree we have to rely on the known principles in the Book of Mormon and Bible and the revelations of the Prophets like Isaiah, Nephi, Lehi...etc to visualize the true principles that are not overly written
His train are members of his family - In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Really loved this.❤
It is amazing that Greg came to mostly similar understandings of the scriptures as Dave without the incredibly complex highly scholarly study that Dave has done?
I wrote a not yet published book, Return to the Garden of Eden, God ,Will Make us Immortal " that has a chapter about angels and their relationship with man. I would love to hear Dave's insight on Seraphim, because they are the problematic being in my explanation of who angels are, . , the wings, etc..
A comment Dave made. Paul is a jerk in his treatment of those going to have others circumcised. Paul was in absolute war with the Jewish Christians who taught parts or all of the law of Moses was necessary to be saved. He understood better than most that circumcision, kosher diet, etc. do not require a person to change from their spirit to be saved, delivered , from sin. Paul knew better than most that not killing someone does not save you, because you still have hate, jealousy , envy, back biting, etc. However, to love all people does deliver you from sin. Paul knew better than most that not committing adultery does not deliver, save , anyone from sin, because you still lust; lust to fornicate, lust to commit adultery, lust after sports, hunting, work, in other words, lust after other gods. The sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is more perfect that the sermon on the mount recorded in the Bible, because Christ makes it clear in the Book of Mormon that every jot and tittle of the law of Moses is fulfilled in Him, and has an end. When you understand Paul you know the sermon on the mount recorded in the Book of Mormon is by no one else but Jesus Christ.
That is why Paul was so upset that they didn't get it. To send a message that circumcision is somehow necessary for salvation, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, was the wrong message to send. Just as stepping away from the Gentile converts table under pier pressure, because they ate nonkosher food. I would love to write a book, Understanding Paul.
On the fruit of the Tree of Life being Christ or His mother. Does Christ have the love that He has osmosis of the cosmos?, or does He have the love He has osmosis from both His heavenly Father and heavenly mother? I was hoping you would bring up the passage in the Book of Mormon that says His mother after the manner of flesh, showing Christ has a mother after the manner of His spirit.
You know how you try and imagine the thought process of a person who is above average, like Elon Musk, for example. Dave's reading of any scriptures, or any literature at all, must be a linguistic tornado in comparison to the median and above median person.
Thank you for this. Great insight - both of you
To me it seems like the reason the church is under condemnation in regards to the Book of Mormon and the D&C is more a matter of unbelief than esoteric knowledge of the details. We believe IN the book, but we don't believe it. When Nephi says "if you repent and are diligent in seeking the Lord will teach you directly" we say - "that's may be true for you Nephi, but Laman and Lemuel had it right. The Lord doesn't talk to me that directly". There are many other principles in the BOM and D&C that it seems to me we treat with unbelief. Supposedly we will get more when we shed the unbelief and not only say but do as the scripture suggest (i.e., when by our faith we replicate the experiences of the prophets)
During the conversation there was discussion about the dream and the filthy waters. I am not a Hebrew speaker but trying to look up what filthy might be one word is צאי TSOW. This also can refer to menstrual blood. See Stongs concordance. The Hebrew for son is Ben. Or beit nun. Conceptually the house continues. We are supposed to be sons and daughters of god, yes? So an unfertilized egg is washed away in menstrual blood. Now, one of the concepts associated with the nun in the word Ben is an aborted fetus. A future king or god that perhaps tasted the fruit and was ashamed. Somewhere I read that a woman’s flow is her body mourning the life that wasn’t.
Something that has a logic to it. Thanks for the great content.
I say both
yes very outstanding , very much a sprit of what is important about being familiar with Bofm and temples as i understand ignorance is no salvation from the law
Awesome episode
I really liked the way he explained these B of M scriptures
You mention of heavenly mother. This is a little off topic but in Alma 42:24 Alma assigns a gender to justice and mercy " For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own". I suspect that justice is administered by God the father and mercy although it comes from Christ's atonement, it is administered by Heaveny Mother. Your thoughts?
Incorrect.
@@October6202
I freely admit I may be wrong but why is a gender attached to Justin and mercy? If you have a greater insight please share.
It may be a language structure question. For example, in Spanish, justice and mercy are both feminine. Emotions and nouns are assigned gender in Spanish.
We assign ships, planes, cars etc. a feminine gender in English. Don’t know why since you can’t lift a ship up to check what body parts they have underneath 😂(kidding).
Simply put: Maybe in the Nephite language Justice is masculine and mercy is feminine. 🤷♂️ my two cents.
Wonderful Wonderful 😅😅😅❤
More pls!
Yes.
Was the land bountiful near adam ondi aman....
Beautiful
This is facinating stuff! I would love to know where to find additional resources by David and those referenced in your discussion. Looking forward to part 2!
Don’t the scriptures state explicitly that the tree represents Mary? And the fruit represent Jesus. There’s a very clear parallel in how both the tree and Mary is described.
Both
That is my answer and more!
Love the pic of the tree of life....how can I get this
4 And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken?
5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father.
6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.
7 And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that IT(it=tree) is the Son of God.
Also considering the roles of historians and scribes and Joseph Smith's reference to those who assume they have authority...they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. We can see this expressed all through the biblical history and have to wonder how often church historians succumb to it.
And give thanks to God for those that are able to keep a true record as the historians of the book of Mormon strove to maintain.
Oh yes!
Why not the Ethiopian Bible as a much earlier look at Christian doctrine?
Why is it that we only receive visions one way? Is this the only way it’s done? If so, Why?
Thanks!
You’re welcome and thank you!
I had a thought and want to get your perspective…
Acts 5:30, it states that Jesus was hanged on a tree, could that symbolically mean that Jesus died in his mother’s arms?
Dave Butler is amazing! Please have him again!
Definitely
This sounds like what is happening to Isaiah is happening today
I like all of this representation except it feels off to me a little bit. Can anyone tell me where is Heavenly Father’s symbology in this Tree of Life? We,should have the Oneness with God the Father and His companion, our Heavenly Mother and Jesus (also having an eternal wife) being born of Mary and the Father and the Holy Spirit(does he have a divine female companion also)? If we are all to become one, then we cannot leave out Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary and the Father and Joseph earthly raising Jesus father. Spinning this without the whole picture isn’t complete enough for me. Where is Our Heavenly Father symbology in all this. I really like every thing, but, that feels like it is missing, unless, I misinterpreted what was being said. I do not want the culture of the Church to go woke, pushing forward the divine feminine as the leader above all in the Tree of Life, ever. I want the partnership, the yin to yang etc. can anyone clarify this for me. I am a woman, therefore, appreciate the divine attention of women in these things, but, not at the expense of the divine masculine. My Heavenly Father needs some good vibes here!
I can see God as the light/the whiteness of the tree and the fruit! God could be that glowing light that brings all to the tree to become one. The mother tree glows white and pure, the fruit is glowing white and pure and the living waters are on the tree side are pure in Gods over flowing light. That came to me in my pondering, but, this would give me peace to the symbology of the Tree of Life dream! Gods highest vibrational light frequency brings all in to harmony as one in the Tree of life would makes sense to me.
Good question. My perspective is personally being able to see God as the architect. Especially when we know that all of this is Gods plan. When I have that in the forefront of my mind, then All the imagery of the other symbols just become a role in the entire plan.
- The tree = The Love of God
- The fruit = The son of God
- The path = The way to God
- The rod = Gods word
- The people = Gods children
- The great and spacious = Gods enemy
- The filthy waters = Gods sadness
This is how I see God in everything. It’s all God.
@@ShaunTagatauli I appreciate that list, because, that is what the scripture tells. Very interesting.
God is in all of it because it is His plan of salvation! Also, perhaps Lehi is a type because after he feasts on the atonement, he tries to get his family to the tree- thus as head of his family, bringing to pass Fathers work and glory (to bring to pass our eternal life and immortality) maybe he’s also a type of Christ, then too. Dave points out here and in another interview that you grasp or cling to the rod four times on your way to the tree of life (think of endowment and the four times you grasp HF)
Good heavens you people are blind. You're all mixed up.
Is Dave saying, "Ashira" or Asherah? Google says: "Asherah, along with Astarte and Anath, was one of the three great goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon. In Canaanite religion her primary role was that of mother goddess. Canaanites associated Asherah with sacred trees, an association also found in the Israelite tradition". However, when put in conjunction with Ashtoreth you get: "Ashtoreth, Asherah, Astarte, and Ishtar are all manifestations of the same goddess who was worshipped in different regions, where people were divided by language and geography. Ashtoreth (a Hebrew name) was the supreme female deity of the Phoenicians, associated with Baal, the supreme god."
I can see the Tree of L having dual meaning: Jesus and women, however, I have a problem with comparing M in heaven with an idol who was surrounded with homosexuals, eunuchs and transgender persons (as written in the Old Testament). Good fruit can't come from an evil tree so are you saying that a good tree can have fruit that turns bad (Jacob and the allegory) and you can still use an ancient idol (Ashtoreth) that worship of, caused the destruction of the H of Israel, as a representation of a M in heaven? If Asherah/Ashtaroth initially was a representation (such as the serpent was for Christ) and then went terribly awry, then like the PRIDE use of the rainbow, we should let it go until the great "cleansing" so that it's new perception doesn't lead the ignorant down "strange roads", thus, making us think back on your episode of the rainbow and the Come Follow Me study guide. I just REALLY think that the connection between the two women is disjointed so I'm hoping you can help me understand how it is not. Hope to hear from you either here or I will see how one emails you or David because I'm not sure how to get back to this comment after others pile up on top of this one???
I’ve had to explain this several times, but I’ll do it again. You need to look at it through the other side of the glass. Was the Canaanite goddess a corruption of the Divine feminine?
Then EXPLAIN IT more clearly IN a SEGMENT. I had to listen again and the KEY was the “yode” he said only briefly, that changed who is being spoken of: the idol or the Mother. This leads us wholly down another path of thought; Thankfully! I wish that he had put more emphasis on the VERY important difference because initially it really affected my trust in the rest of his information. Scripture Central’s short video on this subject really left us thinking that ALL these figurines that they have found was a good thing regarding Asherah, skipping that maybe they were actually the evidences of a warped ideology (idol worship surrounding itself with homosexuality, eunuchs and transgenders ) that caused the eventual destruction of nearly the whole House of Israel. They made no distinction between the Asherah with the YODE (caps merely for emphasis 🙂) . The way Mother in Heaven worship is taking hold in the Church (and the USA), this would be a great segment to discuss so that women will KNOW the difference. Michael B. Rush addresses visions that people have had and are having regarding a beautiful woman in white believed to be Mary or M in heaven and have received instructions from her. Women are now praying to her! 🤦♀️
Now that I know about the yode, I plan on listening once again AND taking notes because I received SO MANY new incites about where the church is headed down seemingly non-traditional ways BUT if you look at scriptures we’ve read a million times with this new paradigm, we will see the messages meant to get us through these mists of darkness and strange roads. Let Dave know he has inspired me! 😊
I hope it gave you insights and not incites. Sorry, nudging in a little spelling lesson but actually I liked your comment and agreed with it.
Ugh I had a feeling that take would be brought up. That you imagine a pre-existing tradition still holds truth to some Eternal Truth. They. Are. Not. On. The. Same. Level. This is how Satan and his government are cloaking themselves behind Christian theology.
Also interesting that when Jesus tells the pharasees and or Sadducees that they would kill the prophets also...it may have been less about the idea that they were bad and more that they were of the same belief system that lead to killing the prophets. They were contrary to the meanings of the prophesying of Isaiah
Hint Nephi did not come up with the idea to cut off Labands head . The Lord commanded him to do it . He did not want to do it . And he gives Nephi and explanation why he needs to do it and that he put him right into his hands .
The LDS want to talk about the tree of life , iron rods, covenant paths, temples , Book of Mormon geography, anything but the cross . The cross is where the gospel is. The cross is where the Christian finds Grace.
I'm losing patience.
All of it is a type of Christ or leads us to Christ.
What is the study app you use? I have heard you mention it but I can't find the exact moment you mentioned it.
Scripture Notes published by Oak Knowlton I think
So how are we to trust Isaiha if it has been altered.
interesting thought - search provoking. I like D J Butler here with you better- The Stick of Joseph guys are a bit immature and too goofy. You get right to the point. Your sober discussion with Dave is just that.
lol yeah sometimes they seem like “ Bill and Ted’s Book of Mormon Adventure”
D&C 88:40
Can you link your study group
www.cwicmedia.com/study-group
@@CwicShowoh thank you! Haha
Yes dave its very hard . Even to sacrifice your soul its not good for it ..