Tree of Life In Gethsemane - Laman and Lemuel Were Religious - Lehi's Jerusalem
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2023
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Val Larsen and I think a lot alike. I could talk to Val about the Book of Mormon and the Old Testament for hours. This is just one of those hours.
We discuss the two religions of Lehi's Jerusalem and Lehi and Nephi. And the insights on Lehi's Dream are important and poignant. We show that Laman and Lemuel were religious, just to another religion. The disastrous, centralizing reforms of King Josiah.
Val discusses how the Tree of Life may have been an almond tree shaped like a menorah in Gethsemane on the Mt. of Olives, there since the time of King Solomon. Listen to this episode, and you'll get some real meat.
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➡️ Cwic Show relates real-world, current events for faith-based commentary and conversations. We address topics such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, politics, pop culture, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and gospel principles in a faith-based manner. We support the Restored Church of Jesus Christ and fight the disinformation that is so pervasive online.
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This is incredible. The idea that Laman and Lemuel were zealots . . . fascinating. More stuff like this please!
Oh glory stars, I could have listened to this conversation for hours!! 🥰🥰🥰 Please bring him back... I wasn't done listening. Hahaha. Thank you both so much.
Amen!!!
I loved this! It is the first time I have had a confirmation of what I learned from Margaret Barker and from the Spirit. But let me expand a little - Lehi was from Manasseh of the northern kingdom. Why did he live his whole life, as Nephi said, in Jerusalem? When Jeroboam broke off the Northern Kingdom from Judah, he set up 2 idols - one in Bethel and one in Dan, hoping the people would not go to Jerusalem to worship at the temple there 1 Kings 12. There was an exodus of believers who wanted to worship at the temple the correct way after that time. Lehi’s ancestors may have left the Northern Kingdom after the split but before Assyria conquered the No. Kingdom. If so, Lehi would have been raised to believe in the old ways (from before the time of the split). He would have been a young man at the time of Josiah’s reign and the Deuteronomic changes. Lehi and perhaps his friend, Ishmael, continued to believe in the Elohim, the Divine Mother and the Divine Son, but would have to keep those beliefs hidden. The many prophets that the Lord called to preach to Jerusalem were probably also believers in the Holy Family and the Hosts of Heaven. This belief shows up in Lehi’s dreams and Nephi seemed to also believe as his father did. The older brothers, Laman & Lemuel seemed to believe the Deuteromomists. I think you are right - they were zealots for the changed way of believing.
Not sure when Lehi's family came south. It could have been early in the split or even before. But I see several allusions in the BofM to areas in or close to the inherited land of Manasseh. There were also at least two significant waves of Assyrian destruction and exile in the 8th century BC, just like with Judah and Babylon. Great stuff!
Barker is great, but there are several points I disagree with her on. My guest would go more along with her even though she is probably my favorite OT scholar.
This was top drawer discussion from both participants. Very thought provoking. Excellent show
@Cwicshow hey greg! Im like 28 years old and have been an avid member and participant in the church my whole life around the US. I've lived in 10 different states and held all the callings one can have possible...and yet I have never learned or even heard the things you spoke about today with Josiah and Laman and lemuel. It makes total sense and why Laman and lemuel say the things they say. Normally Laman and lemuel just get painted as the slightly disobedient and spiritually lazy brothers. My mind is blown. But I'm curious why is any old testament class have I never heard about Josiah and this theology and how it leads to the scribes and Jerusalems fall and looking beyond the mark? Why aren't things like this talked about more in Church?
Because the church is primarily a net used for gathering. It is a framework for our progression. We each individually progress in knowledge based upon that framework. I think it’s dangerous to assume that the church is supposed to carry us line by line.
Also because these things are not in the scriptures. They are speculation and rationalization based on man's limited understanding of how things were in a time we have little information about. We should be very careful not keeping the holy ghost as our tutor.
@@tiffanyseavy565Learning historical information surrounding the ancients is also a great way to understand scripture. I love listening to Hugh Nibley’s lectures for example. I wish I had all of his books.
@@binmyrtmind I love Hugh Nibley's work too. Are there any books or articles from him backing up the claims made in this video?
@@tiffanyseavy565 I don’t know of any that mention Josiah in Nibley’s writings. I love these subjects of deeper meaning; some seem obvious and others are questionable but always worth learning and keeping in my 💭 head. One day we will know for certain!
Interesting thought... The reduction of a plurality of Gods of whom we are made in the image of to a single, nebulous unknowable God is a version or a parallel to the disintegration of the family.
No question!
I’ve replayed this several times & get more perspective each time. Thank you Greg Matson & Val Larson. So grateful I was blest to be a “fly on the wall”!
I pray you’ll please have Brother Larson as a guest again soon to share more Book of Mormon insights.
Thank you too, for your episode with David Alexander! I have watched all of his videos as a result.
Alma 26: 21-22 applies to you & David Alexander & many RUclips presenters!
I keep praying to be humble & penitent & to have my eyes, ears, mind & heart open to receive more enlightenment, wisdom & knowledge-to be healed & to help others. I feel this video is saturated with truth & is one of those hidden treasures of great knowledge-at least for my life. I receive great joy as I ponder these things. I shall be forever changed & will read the Book of Mormon with new eyes: deeper insight, reverence, & appreciation to our Father & the prophet, Joseph Smith, & these righteous ancient journalists & historians as a result of this new enlightenment.
So grateful for the Words of God. So much to learn & so little time. Appreciate what you do! 🙏🇺🇸🤗
Val is a fascinating man, and the two of you do a wonderful job of helping us understand the need to defend the principles of liberty and finding the good in our fellow brothers and sisters and we all try to find and cling to the rod of iron.
I'll be inviting Val on the show again to continue this conversation.
Too bad I can only give this one like. I had many aha moments and many questions answered. Thank you Greg for bringing a thought provoking subject to your channel. I did not know that what Josiah did changed the lives of so many people and I’m glad I have a better understanding of Laman and Lemuel. I think we as parents today have this same challenge with our children, we teach our children the gospel and we pray and fast for them, but they go to school or anywhere else and are taught something contrary, these teachings clash together and we get opposition from them. Great content!
Great scripture conversation. Absolutely awesome. Thank you. I was reading in Jacob 7 after watching this and the argument that Sherem gives contradicts itself. He gives the law of Moses but then says that no man can know these things...Jacob 7:7. Moses was given knowledge of things to come in his life and for the Children of Israel. It also contradicts Moroni in that we can know the truth of all things by going unto the Father in prayer. Individually we can find information we need pertaining to our lives from God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Absolutely beautiful!
I've always felt that when Adam and Eve were given two conflicting instructions, it was the beginning of agency here on this fallen world.
So thoroughly enjoyed learning of the point of separation of "true religion" and everything else in this podcast. Loved it! Eager for the next episode.
Another great video. I appreciate the profound insight’s which are hard to find on other podcasts.
Love hearing this!
Only 10 minutes in and I already love this guy.
This is way above my intellect. All I know is God lives, Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and we're lead by a Prophet of God, Russell M Nelson. Compared to the rest of you, I'm still in preschool.
Me too.
@@edwardgabriel5281 Thank Brother 😊 🙏
This discussion sure makes me realize why we're taught to read and study the scriptures over and over. I feel like I read different scriptures than they speak of. It's deep and totally fascinating as to what I have yet to learn. I loved this and will repeat it many times to get a better understanding before the next one.
Yep, I'm with you. I have a lot to learn, but my simple testimony is strong. I'm glad I found Cwic, Greg posts thought-provoking content, and does a great job of explaining some pretty deep topics.
Thank you!
Third time through, and I'm getting it. Loved his explanation of the prodigal son & brother. Understood more about my past behaviors and becoming one with myself after many years wrestling internally .
I watched a couple of videos yesterday with Brent J. Smith, professor of ancient Greek and other things at BYU-I, if I remember correctly. He talked about his books "Relational Faith" and "Relational Mercy," and those ideas dovetail with some of the ideas in this video.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion!
You’re welcome
You better get to that second episode soon. I wish this one was 2 hours.
It’s important to remember this video reflects these two gentleman’s opinions only - watching their videos should prompt a person to do their own deep dive research who can allows you personally to be taught by the spirit.
Absolutely! That is what is stated toward the beginning of the video.
I am also thinking about the 2 trees in the Garden of Eden as symbols of justice versus mercy, which in turn represent covenant to me. The 2 trees symbolize separation and when Christ comes again, they will be brought together into one... Nebulous thoughts that niggle at my mind..
Brilliant discussion! So glad I saw you on Ward Radio and found this channel.
Wow. My head just exploded. And here I thought I understood about all I could from the BofM (not really). I'm definitely reading it too quickly, even when I'm "studying." Thanks for giving me new info to read, ponder, pray, and verify for myself.
Brother Larsen writes at least 5 of the short Interpreter - Journal of Latter-Day Saint Faith & Scholarship series volumes. I now have them and will dig into them!!
Glad you enjoyed it.
So many patterns, insights, and truths. I will relisten a few times. The second greatest commandment comes to mind when you are discussing charity abd the pridigal son. Loving others as ourselves. Of course we can only fully love ourselves and others wuth the love and hope in Christ and loving God with all our hearts, might, mind, and strength.
Im only partway through, but what about the scriptures in Isaiah that very forcefully and repeatedly state there "is no god beside me"?
Talking about the parable of the prodigal son just as the one that left his home and eventually came to himself and returned the same holds true to the one was hurt and did not comprehend the deep love of the father for both sons has just as much chance to recognize his misunderstanding and come to himself and be welcomed back every bit as the other so. The parable was told for us to learn many truths of Gods love and forgiveness. So I fell a bit not sure of the thaught I may have got from him of the standing of the son who stayed home. Forgiveness and growth are for both. Enjoying your conversation Carol
I love it if you continued this discussion... a part 2 would be great!
Coming
Great commentary of rich truths. What a great fellow to hear from and with you Greg.
Thank you
This was fantastic. I really enjoyed it!
Great!
Best episode yet! Fantastic!!
Glad you liked it. Great stuff in this episode.
Amazing discussion. You were right, love the doctrine discussions.
Fascinating. Loved the Discussion!
Absolutely fascinating and entertaining thank you so much for putting this together. I am crazy about new ideas and new ways of seeing things.
This is incredible guys God bless🕊️
Good thoughts, gentlemen. Thank you!
Wonderful insights. Thank you!
Please do a second interview to do Nephi's vision 🤩 Also, please discuss more in depth your views of the man in white being Christ; I have found only a few helpful references to this scripture. I've never heard him referenced as the Savior; this resonates well with me. Thank you!
Bring Val back on the show sometime please🫶🙏
Soon.
That last point where premortal Alma is judging his probationary self, is incredibly interesting. This point is consistent with observable physical law, differentiation is crucial to any physical feedback system, driving errors to zero to maintain stability. That difference has to have happened to create space for action- otherwise there’s no need for a creation of any sort. This is what I believe Lehi means when he says if all things were neutralized, they’d be compound in one (2 Ne. 2:11)- charity and experience, knowledge is only gained when things are pulled apart, and then set in balance (across zero) by Christ’s Atonement. Between them is where things happen!
More please. Thank you 🙏
We'll have a follow-up episode.
Great discussion, thank you.
You’re welcome.
WOW
Totally fascinating!!!
Thank you!!!!
This is really good information. It helps me to understand this in a better way. I can understand now
Glad to hear
Hi, from Auckland New Zealand, I was wondering do you do a prayer before you start?
Greg, Would be great to have you speak at Ed wk on these topics. They are losing some great ones and need some new life with your topics
I would enjoy that.
I like listening to this guy on this channel. He's a smart guy that knows a lot. I don't have this kind of knowledge but it's an interesting channel without all the filler
Appreciate that.
I did not read this comment in the voice of Fry…
What is this guest's channel?
@@susanwardell5028 I don’t think he has one. But you can look up his papers at interpreterfoundation.org under Val Larsen.
Greg, could you break down the acronym DBR? You said something about root and Hebrew logos. But I would like to know what the acronym stands for
It's not an acronym, it's a root. A Hebrew root. Here is more on DBR - ruclips.net/video/nBHGClSxWOQ/видео.html
You cannot believe that Jesus Christ is the savior and redeemer of the world if you do not believe in the spirit of prophecy. The only means that one can know that Jesus is the Christ is through the Holy Ghost. Their is foundational things that a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must believe in order to avoid deception and remain in the church. Jesus Christ is the savior and redeemer, Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, the keys and authority of the priesthood where restored through God to Joseph Smith, miracles still happen today, the true nature of God, the order of God, and how to discern between angels of God vs angles of Satan.
What books or commentary should I be reading to learn more about what you are discussing?
I always first point people to The Older Testament by Margaret Barker.
The best part of Mosiah 27 is the fact that Alma says that he is SNATCHED by the redeeming love of Christ! I AM SNATCHED! Mosiah 27: 28-29!!!
Mosiah 27 is one of my favorite passages.
@CwicShow mine too!
As saints can we also claim that we all also with God outside of time and space his sons and daughters?
Most of this is still hypothesis. We weren't there at the time of Jeremiah or Lehi.
Good discussion though.
And you're right, the world is following "my own truth and you must support me."
This was a mental and spiritual workout for me. So are we saying here that the pre-Jeremiah Israelites worshipped Heavenly Mother and the Council of Heaven? Forgive me if I sound like an idiot here, this just challenges everything I thought I knew.
That's all stuff from "top scholars" as Val Larsen says. The Old Testament repeatedly claims that the Israelites worshipped the gods of the Amorites, Jebusites, et al. Read the Bible and listen to the Holy Ghost. That is how everyone here can know the truth of this and all things.
Like Joseph Smith said and knew, there was a more ancient gospel, the gospel of Abraham which had to be restored in the last days. Read the Book of Abraham. Read the Book of Moses. This is what is being restored and was lost.
Moses 1:6
And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth
Moses 1:32
And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
Abraham 3:27
And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
I would suggest believing the restored scriptures, not those online that would influence you otherwise. The restored scriptures are restoring what was lost at the time of Lehi.
Right. If the divine feminine was intended to be part of the core beliefs and ordinances of the gospel, wouldn’t it have been restored through Joseph Smith? Square peg, round hole.
Joseph did teach that we have a Mother in Heaven. And every prophet since Joseph has explicitly mentioned her at one point or another. Heavenly Mother is doctrine. @@knelson3326
Something to keep in mind: thhe social changes mentioned have not developed overnight, indicating some sudden, recent manifestation of evil. For example, gender identity has been a concept and struggle for centuries. What we are seeing is people's ability to discuss these things publically and thoughtfully, questioning existing norms and wondering what is rooted in irrational hate and bias, and what is healthy. This is always good. I do think, from what I can see, that confusion is creayted in some that is not constructive, related to gender identity. Rather than a wholesale rejection of people who struggle with these issues, Christians ought to listen and refer people to God's Word as well as professional help if i dicated. Prayers.
Do you know who John Money is? He's the quack scientist who coined the term "gender identity". His seminal research was entirely disproven. He was also a pedophile who got two of his patients to commit suicide from his abuse of them. In fact, if you get to the root of most of these challenges to existing norms, you'll find essentially pure, unadulterated evil. There is a reason for that. At some point, you will have to confront the fact that the ideologies you support are fundamentally atheist, anti-Christian, and a rebellion against God.
I haven't heard the leaders of the church advocate that we reject people with gender or sexual confusion. Rather, they have said there is room and need for everyone in Zion. It's just that the commandments are the same for everyone.
@@gemelindacjp7976 Is there a commandment for those born as hermaphrodites or with transgenderism? I don't think so. These conditions require new revelation. Prayers.
~23:00-~25:29 I remember learning this in either seminary or institute back in the 1990s about how Josiah and Lehi prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and why it would be destroyed and the wording back then is identical to what the guest is saying.
Anyway as I have reflected on the so-called "differences" between the reasons why for the prophecies, I have been wondering if those reasons really are in sharp contrast to each other!? I'm not so sure they are. I think they are the same reasons just worded differently because there were lots of times when the Lord had to use multiple and differing means and ways to communicate to the Israelites a rather simple message that for the most part they would stubbornly refuse to listen to because often of the hardness of their hearts and willful dullness of their senses because of they were in general whenever they were being wicked. That's my humble opinion. I hope that makes sense.
PS. Josiah's reason of the people worshiping the other Gods of the council and Lehi's reason of the people outright rejecting the worshiping of God the Father are both basically the same thing- worshiping the other Gods of the Council would necessarily have to imply that they were effectually not worshiping God the Father at all whatsoever just like just not worshiping God the Father at all whatsoever because of the way of their law, thinking, customs, culture, mentality etc. I hope that makes sense too.
I think the fruit of the tree of good and evil could symbolize mortal birth, since Adam and Eve couldn't have children or feel pain before this moment. And the second tree, connected to Christ a, is the "rebirth" of baptism (the start of the journey) to resurrection (the end of the journey from life to death and back again, from baptism to the temple ordinances that bring us back to the presence of God) and the "rebirth" of joining and transformation of spirit and body into an immortal and holy state. Our Mother is the way to birth and re-birth, right?
Thank you.
You’re welcome
There is so much depth here that it is difficult to assimilate it all, and I feel inadequately equipped to discuss it well, but could it not be possible that Josiah really was a righteous king, as the scriptures tell us, and that the reforms he made removed items from the temple, that while in their proper use had been appropriate, that had been corrupted and were being used incorrectly? Sort of along the lines of “if you can’t use this correctly, it’s better that it be removed.” It seems in this way, the reforms could have been meant to help people refocus on the Savior, but unfortunately, they were so far gone that even that didn’t help.
Yes, it’s possible. But keep two things in mind, first, Jeremiah was called as a prophet, one year after Josiah‘s reforms. Throughout his ministry and life, he decries the corruption of the church, the temple, the priests, the prophets, and the people. Second, Jerusalem becomes so wicked over the next 30-ish years that they’re going to kill the prophets, including Lehigh and almost killed Jeremiah. They do kill the prophet Uriah. This is why Lehigh must take his family and leave. And of course, 10 years later, all of Jerusalem is destroyed.
A father had two sons. Cain and Abel. Prodigal and faithful. Esau and Jacob. A running them in the scriptures.
I’ve studied a fair amount of Margaret Barker. One of my questions about her thought is, Why didn’t Joseph Smith get more revelation to clear up the Josiah matter while he was doing the JST? Thoughts?
Because Josiah actually WAS a righteous king. 2 Kings 22:2 reads, "And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left." The fate of the Kingdom of Judah and the temple were already sealed by the wickedness of King Manasseh as we can plainly read in 2 Kings 21. 2 Kings 22:19-20 says that because of Josiah's humility before the Lord, the destruction of Judah, though inevitable, would not happen in Josiah's lifetime. Don't trust "top scholars", read the scriptures and listen to the Holy Ghost.
@@ouchymytoe You may be right. That’s the question. Also, I have heard President Nelson say many times that he has consulted with scholars in his study of the scriptures. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Thanks for your opinion!
@@ouchymytoeI very much appreciated your comment. I think we have to be careful with some scholars who are desperate to find something new to latch on to and call their own. I love this channel. But I am also discerning when it comes to what I fully digest. We must be careful not to get too far down a branch only to have it snap. That said, it is great having a channel that pursues many avenues of discussion. I imagine the original meetings in the School of the Prophets where they batted around and discussed varied ideas, was just as intriguing and thought provoking. But we do have to be discerning. The Spirit has always whispered to me that Josiah was a hero. My sons and I would read about him prior to their missions. I used it as a teaching opportunity to show that one man truly can make a difference in this world. I encouraged them to do the same on their missions. I just can't ignore the Spirit that was felt during those father and son discussions.
@@downsmath I obviously lean toward Josiah's Reforms as the downfall of Judah. His father was murdered and he took over as an 8-year-old boy. Others were running the kingdom. Were they righteous? Possibly. But all of Judah was destroyed just 40 years later as it fell into great apostasy and the temple was thoroughly corrupted.
However, I appreciate your comments on being open on the channel and discussing different approaches. Scholarship should always be taken with a grain of salt and heavy dose of the Spirit. I think you know of my love/hate relationship with academia.
@@CwicShowGreg, I too have very much enjoyed your channel and the discussions that you facilitate. I can see where your train of thought stems (correct me if I am wrong): you believe that, because Josiah was a boy, others made the decisions for him and those decisions ultimately led to Judah’s societal decline and destruction. However, I have to disagree that it was because of Josiah’s leadership specifically and the reforms that he put into effect. I believe that the decline stemmed from the wickedness of King Manasseh earlier and Josiah was trying his hardest to correct it. Otherwise, how do you reconcile the Lord telling Josiah that he would be spared seeing the destruction that would befall his people? The Lord specifically says that Josiah would be spared seeing the destruction of the kingdom because of his righteousness and that the fall would be because of Josiah’s forefathers. (2 Kings 22:20)
I agree with downsmath: Josiah was a hero. the biblical record clearly describes Josiah coming to adulthood and realizing that the kingdom was in decline and, in response, did the following:
1. In the eighteenth year of his reign, he raised money to repair the temple.
2. Called for a time of national repentance by drawing the people together into covenant made between the people and the Lord. (2 Kings 23:3)
3. The temple was cleansed from all objects of pagan worship, and the idolatrous high places in the land were demolished.
4. Josiah restored the observance of the Passover (2 Kings 23:2-23)
5. He removed mediums and witches from the land. (2 Kings 23:25)
To top it all off, I don’t understand how you reconcile your statement when the scriptures state:
“Before him there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses, nor did any like him arise after him.” (2 Kings 23:25)
Therefore, I believe that you incorrect on this point.
Please don’t misunderstand me. I do not seek to be contentious, merely to point out how scripture contradicts what you shared in regards to King Josiah. I am grateful that you facilitate conversations that spur intellectual thought to better understand and apply the Gospel of Jesus Christ into our daily lives more effectively and to bring awareness of the deceptions that are definitely out there. God speed my friend!
It makes it even more challenging to read the scriptures when what your read may be slanted. The thing about Josiah, who I understood to be righteous, but now it appears that he was wicked. I came across a Brigham Young quote not long ago when I read one of his biographies where he stated, “The Bible contains the words of God, and a great many words of the devil too.” I am paraphrasing, but it took me back a bit. I guess that’s true, so you have to be inspired to sift out the overall message, but it seems there are some major mistakes too.
I hear what you’re saying but I’m uncomfortable with throwing Josiah out as evil. In Val’s previous work, he blames Josiah for removing the divine feminine from the temple, but the most evil institutions have supplanted the gospel with worship of a mother type. Very thin ice here and we would be wise to stay open to other interpretations.
@@knelson3326yes! Thank you!
@@knelson3326We need to also understand that Josiah was working with what documents he had and could understand at he time.
Kay
So should we be considering Deuteronomy as less than inspired doctrine, akin to Song of Solomon? Chapter 13 for example?
Not necessarily. The book found in the temple was unlikely the whole book of Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy is also quotes or alluded to in the Book of Mormon and in the New Testament. Including from Jesus Himself. But a portion is suspect and of course the editing of all of the OT is suspect. There is a reason the "Scribes" are one of the groups Jesus has a problem with.
Biblical Scholarship has identified several OT books as being influenced by the Deuteronomists including; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and Jeremiah. This does not mean that they wrote them. But that there appears to be Deuteronomist influence, language, theology, and focus in these books.
The article on the gospel library app, “Thoughts to Keep in Mind:
The Historical Books in the Old Testament” talks a lot about trying to keep Old Testament teachings in perspective with how they align with revealed and restored doctrines. I think this is a great example of how necessary that is. After all, Christ quotes Deuteronomy more than any other Old Testament book, but he certainly doesn’t quote the parts about killing people who see visions. So where we may need to look past verses that are suspect, I wouldn’t want to advocate with throwing the baby out with the bath water.
@@matt-seaton Absolutely. I love the OT!
Can you help me understand what deuteronomism is?
The Deuteronomists are a theocratic party that appear to have taken over the Kingdom of Judah and its religion around the time of King Josiah. There is evidence that prior to this time, Judah worshipped a Father god, a Mother god and s Son god. The Deuteronomists also appear to have edited, or even written parts of the Old Testament to support their theology of a single god, Jehovah. This religion is the heritage of the Pharisees and Rabbinical Judaism today. And this is why they were going to kill Lehi. He was teaching the old, true gospel of Jesus Christ.
It too bad this is so long...there are definitely a few things worth debating on amongst these topics.
But for sure, from what info I've gathered the majority of those who have left the church have become Atheist.
The LDS doctrine is quiet convoluted the deeper you get into it.
It's clear that there is a similar fog with mainstream Christianity about faith and works...
It becomes alot more clear when you have decerned who the audience of the new testament is, and who it is not.
If you take the traditional view that both the lds and modern Christians take that true Pagan Gentiles are coming into Christ then the road leads to the present location.
But, this is false, the Gentiles that Paul and the Apostles were seeking were non law practicing Israelites, and this add clarity to the entire text.
My mind is blown!
If the female Divine God was so openly and symbolically alluded to in the ancient true religion, why do you believe we are so guarded and in fact dissuaded from referring to a Heavenly Mother in our current Church theology?
I'd kind of like some references for this though. A lot of what he's talking about at the beginning I'm scratching my head over, especially when he says the Book of Mormon says a lot and that's it rich on information and people would be rushing to get a copy and I'm going... I don't remember anything like this in the Book of Mormon or the Old Testament or, where's this Bible we haven't seen or why do the Jews today not have this multi-God belief but under a singular God that governs it all..... Where do we find all of that? And if it's in history books or legends, why is it not Biblical story with everything else? It's the same question of: Where's the Book of Adam, where's the book of Noah, where is Abrahams book. Everything is missing up until Moses, where the Jews saw Moses as the great leader, that's where it seems to start but, you know Moses didn't pen the first five books, either he had a scribe or the Old Testament is a compilation of what people remembered from what they were taught by prophets. I feel the same about the New Testament, I don't think Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote those books. I think they taught those things but saints living at the time remembered and documented that. Everything by Paul seems to be what he's actually saying and writing as they're Epistles but I don't think Jesus was telling his Apostles: "Hey, you'd better be keeping up with parchment paper and ink and writing down word for word what I say. Joseph Smith didn't write down things, people that were listening took it all down. I'm probably wrong, but yeah, where's everything up to Genesis and all of this stuff he's referring too would be nice to have a fact sheet with references to follow out and do personal study on. It's all interesting and cool to learn but ya do want some reference, which..... I don't know where all that information comes from. I've heard about Asharah. You also wonder or El or Elo is really a name or if it was just one of many names given by Hebrew man to identify a being they don't fully understand. We know Jehovah firmly, but we know Jesus because it was the name commanded to Mary to name him and then Christ was a title by man given to him which isn't even Hebrew of my information is correct but was given to him by man which is Greek so it's kinda screwy. Knowing all of that, you kind of see why the world is maybe in so much confusion over taking the name of God in vain. What is his name? It's his name versus the title man has given him? Do we fully understand what that commandment means and thus we just reference any name or title given just to be respectful, I'm thinking too much into it, but a reference sheet would be neat simply because I don't know where to find all of this information or even where to start so, to learn from the more knowledgeable like Hey, where can I find this?
This is mostly from Biblical Scholarship and historical evidence. Much of Biblical Scholarship aligns with Latter-day Saint beliefs.
I would start with The Older Testament, by Margaret Barker here - amzn.to/45jfd4Q
Well, LDS scholarship aligns best with dispensational doctrine, there are a handful of others.
@@duanedahl8856 True. And much of if not most of Biblical Scholarship is secular. Definite divergence in many areas.
@@CwicShow Okay. Thanks for sharing. I really do like listening to ya. Thanks for the effort you put in
"We know Jehovah firmly, but we know Jesus because it was the name commanded to Mary to name him >and then Christ was a title by man given to him which even isn't Hebrew of my information is correct but was given to him by man which is Greek so kinda screwy.
Do you think that many in the church are promoting and teaching today that you can do anything and in the end be okay? It seems like we hear more and more about living and being our true selves. So eat , drink and be merry .
Christ will forgive us for sin , but it takes faith, repentance and change to become more like Him. It seems like at the local level so many keep teaching and preaching about a teddy bear Jesus that excuses sin. Wondering your thoughts…
This is a trend at the local level. Glad you made that distinction.
I often don’t really see the value in marriage and having children, and I often hear that marriage is strictly a commandment of God, but is it? Or would it also be considered to be a philosophy of “doing whatever I want?”
I understand the value in others’ lives, but I also see a lot of reasons why not to pursue those things. Why do I need that for my personal joy, if half of what it is brings misery? How does it affect my personal progression if all it pertains to is my eternal progression in being able to have children for the rest of eternity? Why does that become my concern.
I love your channel, Greg. And I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone. This is just the part of doctrine I have a difficult time wrapping my head around and recognizing its importance.
@@braydenweese1407 Family is everything. It is the ideal. Yes, misery, pain, and sharing burdens come along with the experience. But so do the highest forms of love and joy.
@@CwicShow I guess, for me, the risks far outweigh the benefit. I know it does for a lot of people, whether they’re a member of the Church or not.
In the premortal life you trusted that the benefits outweighed the risks to come to this world. I think you need to continue with that same faith that a family is worth having.
IMO the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the agency of man. Partaking of the fruit is the same as exercising agency. We can only do so by knowing the law of God and choosing to go against it.
Hmmmmmm...Laman and Lemuel were good Jews. Just like most people back in Jerusalem at the time. Interesting.
@paulblack1799
"Hmmmmmm...>Laman and Lemuel were good Jews. Just like most people back in Jerusalem at the time.< Interesting." (My emphasis).
Yes, they were "good Jews. Just like most people back in Jerusalem at the time" in their sight ie perspective according to the misunderstanding they had of the Law of Moses up to that point which law encompasses all of the law, commandments, ordinances, principles, rites/rituals, performances, sacrifices, doings, undoings, comings and goings etc in the entirety of the Old testament before, during and after the time of Moses including the Ten Commandments which observant Jews call the "Ten Statements" as is what was originally meant in the Hebrew language as said as much by Dennis Prager, a very smart man.
NOTE: >< Used for emphasis.
"We would not have been able to sin in God's presence??" Not sure I understand what that means. Can't say that I agree with it.
I have never heard this before.
1/3 of the hosts of heaven cast out for rebellion. Sounds like sinning to me. Ambition for power and attempting to use God's love for His children to gain that power by destroying agency.
The ones who could not sin in God's presence were the 2/3 that were not kicked out. The evidence that we who kept our first estate could not there sin is the fact that when we return after this life, we can't stand to be in his presence if we are a sinner. Presumably, the same would have been true before this life.@@avoice423
Your channel has been great up until now, but this stuff about Asherah and the stuff about the scriptures being wrong on Josiah and Josiah corrupting the religion is all false doctrine. Look at Jeremiah 1, especially Jeremiah 1:16, the need to repent at the time of Jeremiah and Lehi was expressly because people had forsaken the LORD (Jehovah), and prayed to other gods (of which Asherah was one), which is exactly the opposite of what's said in this video. We don't worship Asherah, and see Elder Renlund's talk last year reminding us we are told not to pray to any heavenly mother. Yes, we have heavenly parents, but we only pray to God.
No one here said we pray to a Heavenly Mother.
One must consider that Lehi lived in an apostate Jerusalem. He was going to be killed because he was preaching about Jesus Christ, the Redeemer. Jeremiah was called as a prophet one year after Josiah's reforms went into effect. Those reforms called for the centralization of all sacrifice and ritual to the Jerusalem temple only. Yet here are the words of the Lord and Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 3:6
The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jeremiah 4:9
9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
Jeremiah 6:13
13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jeremiah 7:8-9
8 ¶ Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
The power was concentrated into Jerusalem and the temple. Yet here are the words ofthe Lord to Jeremiah about the temple, His house-
Jeremiah 7:10-11,30
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord.
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
This is essentially the same thing that Jesus said about the High Priests ruinning the temple in His mortality. It was ALL corrupt. Within 40 years of Josiah's reforms the the Kingdom of Judah, along with its temple, was razed to the ground. Many "plain and precious things were removed from the gospel at this time.
More on the corruption of the temple itself-
Jeremiah 23:11
11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord.
This is from the reforms made by Josiah.
And yes, unlike my guest, I believe that the worship of Asherah was likely corrupted and overdone.
For this reason, Joseph Smith is given the inspiration to add to the Old Testament with the Book of Moses and to bring back the fulness of the Gospel that had been given to Abraham with the Book of Abraham.
You may be right, but the evidence against Josiah's reforms is pretty strong. History isn't perfect, and it's possible that Josiah, somehow, really was a great king. But his party, along with his scribes, wrote 1 and 2 Kings. The victors write history.
And according to 1 Nephi 1, the main reason Lehi was going to be killed is because he was preaching about the Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
Lehi was preaching to a people that were probably continuing to participate in the human sacrifice. This idea that Josiah was simply trying to realign the definition of the nature of God doesn’t make sense. Josiah was trying to stop the performance of real atrocities. Unless I’m reading this wrong. I’m just following the succession back to Manasseh. Here it seems that Zedekiah was doing the same thing his grandfathers had done. Really nasty stuff. And this is what Laman and Lemuel wanted to go back to.
2 Kings 24
1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.
2 And the Lord sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by his servants the prophets.
3 Surely at the commandment of the Lord came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did;
4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon.
5 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.
7 And the king of Egypt came not again any more out of his land: for the king of Babylon had taken from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates all that pertained to the king of Egypt.
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
9 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father had done.
17 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father’s brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
19 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
@@mattmclane The point Biblical scholars would make is, "who wrote 1 Kings and 2 Kings?" Their answer is the Deuteronomists. Whether King Josiah was at the head of the reforms or not, what we do know is that by the time we get to Lehi and Jeremiah, the whole religion is corrupt, and Laman and Lemuel are a part of that corruption.
Hearing the trees described in this context. I believe that maybe the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil is "Wisdom"; our Heavenly Mother. And that from the fall she allows us to choose; there is able to be Mary; "The Tree of Life" whose fruit is the atoning sacrifice.
Now, before ya crucify me for speaking ill of Heavenly Mother; we NEED the veil. And in this model it probably comes from her as well in some way for we are all connected to Heavenly Mother. Imagine if she is involved in our birth. Imagine if she is connected to our mortal mother in order that we are put into a physical body. We have never been able to delineate when a spirit is all the way in an unborn baby, probably because of some ongoing connection to Heavenly Mother during pregnancy. IF all that is the case, then abortion would be harming not only the mortal mother (which it does) and the child, but also harming Heavenly Mother. "Abortion is an evil, stark and terrible" -Gordon B. Hinkley.
I know i went off on a bit of a rant there, but think of it! Life from Death. The trees have been Feminine symbols. We can't have Mary be the fall tree, because it doesn't make the sacrifice. Think of the matriarchs and their barrenness (death embodiment). Think of how the mother chosen first by the patriach was the barren matriarch, and so she relied on the other wife to bring forth seed! And with Judah, the ancestor of Jesus, he was not born of the matriarch, but of the supplanted wife. (Now the way Jacob had less love for Leah was not good, her father pushed her into effectively raping him by deception; how could she refuse? And if her father had been honest, Jacob could have loved them both)
Anyway, it makes sense even with the matriarch Rebeccah birthing both Jacob and his rival brother Esau.
There's probably more here i'm too tired to see. But i am feel it makes sense for the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to be Heavenly Mother and the other to be her spirit daughter Mary. AND i have a good feeling about believing Heavenly Mother is involved in mortal pregnancies (and i reject the doctrine of human spirit infusion at fertilization. I believe that a spirit STARTS to be put in their body when its placenta starts to form; A sort of tree). OH! Eve's curse! Of COURSE!
Ok, i need to wrap this up and say goidnight. I'm typing this at 3:00 am 😬😁. God bless you Brother Madsen!
I should probably tell you about a wonderful first-hand experience that was told to me by my seminary teacher long ago. He had 10 children at the time (1973, whenI was 15 or 16 years old). He told us, his class of a personal experience where he was promised the witness of the birth of his 6th child in the 1060's, only it turned out to be that when it happened, it turned out to be from the other side of the Veil. It is quite an amazing story that happened during the era when fathers were not allowed in the delivery room. He saw the full grown spirit of his son right before his son entered his new mortal body. I don't remember brother Adam's first name, but he taught at American Fork high school in the early 70s in American Fork Utah.
that is, an interesting anecdote. @@Gasp7000
thank you for sharing.
Is the divine Mother aka mother Mary? I don’t understand this concept.
Mary, IMHO, mother of Jesus is one of God's wives.
No, Mary is not our Heavenly Mother. Heavenly Mother is an exalted woman, with a glorified resurrected body, and wife of God the Father. She had already been through mortality long before Mary was born and was the earthly mother to the Savior.
@@jaredshipp9207 you are not actually arguing with me. You are arguing with Elder James E. Talmage. But here is my question to you, who is the "Only Begotten in the Flesh"? Who is His Father? Who is His mother? Does God have children out of wedlock? I don't expect you to comprehend sacred things all in one big bite. But, at least don't kick against the pricks.
I am seeing more and more of the grace is all you need church. You called it teddy bear Jesus. I used that term in my EQ lesson yesterday. I don't care if you get offended. You need to wake up and understand Jacob 1:19. The bar of judgement is coming and you better have good answers for him. See Ezekiel 3 as well.
Might just be me but when people claim the asherah was a necessary and vibrant part of temple worship pre-Josiah/deuteronomists, and since we do not have the asherah in the temple today, it feels like we are claiming the temple is incorrect. If there's anything the prophets and apostles couldbt be mire clear about outside of testifying of Christ its the absolute essential nature and power of the temple and its ordinances. I have already seen how this asherah stuff has led many into very dangerous paths of worshipping at trees in their homes, even taking the sacrament at home from under trees instead of cloth symbolizing the cestments of Christ's burial, and doing asherah worship services including mimicking the temple ordinances while making the asherah a centerpiece. I can't think of any other word for such things then to describe them as apostate behaviors.
I cna find n justification anywhere in scripture for the asherah, it is always that there shall be no groves near unto the temple, no wooden idols to be worshipped at, etc. Is this postulating then that the deuteronomists whitewashed the entirety of scriptures? What of the 10 commandments, is the first not actually correct? It just raises far too many questions which only lead to idolatry and condemnation of the temple, in my mind at least. At least you pushed back on the 2 trees and got him to retreat on what was stated. But sheesh, this can and will only lead to very bad things. Its very extra-prophetic, shooting way beyond the mark.
Those are fringe people. This is scholarship and theology. It is not being taught in SS.
Also, we do not have the Shewbread, nor the Menorah, nor the ange3ls and trees on the veil and in the Holy of Holies, nor the Ark of the Covenant, nor the manna, nor the tablets, nor Aaron's rod.
Good points! This video disturbed me for all the same reasons! There are no other gods! Every knee will bow and tongue confess JESUS
Read the creation in Abraham 4
@@CwicShow I just got to seeing this comment, sorry Im just now replying after severla days.
It's a great point about how we don't have everything the same as in Solomon's temple or Herod's temple for that matter. But weren't all of those things you mentioned there specifically because of the law of Moses? That is a distinct difference from the asherah, and postulating/opinionating that the asherah needs to be brought back before the temple ordinances and worship are actually correct and fully restored. It doesn't solve for the issue of why the asherah grove and wooden idols in reference to asherah were always condemned. Is the postulation then that deureronomists whitewashed scripture? Or what exactly accounts for this? We can see the asherah idol being condemned in scripture as early as Exodus.
Also, some are however teaching these things in their ward Sunday school classes, sadly, and abroad as truth on other oodcasts and social media groups. They might be getting released from callings after doing so if they don't correct themselves, and likely without knowing why theyre getting released, but some are being promoted for doing it as well. Variation across wards and stakes I suppose and what the leaders are willing to do or put up with.
Asherah worship may be a small thing today but is rapidly growing specifically in the Utah valley. I've perosnally never recieved so much vitriol on church related matters as I have from denouncing asherah idol worship.
@@michaelwilliamzitar8493why do you think people always have to take everything to the extreme? That’s the purpose for sticking with lesson manuals when teaching in church meetings. I love scholarship, but we should exercise common sense, and I’m beginning to wonder if people have any sense at all today.
I loved this discussion but I have to disagree with the tree worship. I don’t believe worshipping trees has ever been part of the true religion. Trees in scripture do have sacred symbolism but should not be treated as sacred themselves. Does that make sense?
Btw-my son went to a Jewish synagogue for preschool. Through that experience I learned Jews still worship trees. They had a tree at the synagogue that the children would stand around in a circle, hold hands and dance and sing songs. I wasn’t especially happy about it as a Christian parent. I felt like it was an artifact of Canaanite pagan worship that snuck into Jewish practices.
Other than the tree part everything else resonates as truth. I do still have to study some parts of this interview out in my mind and take it to Heavenly Father for personal revelation.
Thank you for sharing what you have. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Worshiping the trees would never be part of the true religion. But the tree is a symbol for the mother and the son. Worshiping the trees would be a corruption of the practice. That is the suggestion. It’s like having the temple objects in the temple of Solomon. They were not object to be worshiped, but they were symbols of spiritual principles.
Oh ok. I definitely misunderstood the part about the trees. Thanks for clarifying. 🙏🏻
@@HealingMSNaturally Hope all is well!
After listening to this video, I feel that going to heaven is a complicated process that requires PhD to navigate symbolism, parallelism, type and shadow blah blah blah.
Thanks for watching. Nothing wrong with exploring knowledge. We are asked to do this. No, it is not saving knowledge, but I believe this pursuit pleases God.
Back in Mormonism’s inception in the 1830s, it was possible to make very sensational-and very unsubstantiated-claims.
Almost 200 years later, advances and discoveries in anthropology, linguistics, archaeology, DNA and other sciences allow for a more forensic examination of such claims.
Let’s take just one-the claim that some Israelites came and settled in the Americas, and on such a scale that millions could be lost in battle.
Mormons say this is historical fact-others say it’s nonsense.
What do the aforementioned sciences-and common sense reveal to the objective observer, one not clouded by cognitive dissonance?
We only have two options-the claim there is evidence Israelite immigrants were on this continent, or there is no such evidence.
Anyone with even a cursory acquaintance with scripture knows the Israelites were an Iron Age people, had the wheel (carts, wagons, chariots), plowed with draft animals, used potter’s wheels, made and used glass, wrote in alphabetic characters, used base ten numbers, and spoke their own distinct Semitic language.
A boat ride from the Middle East to the Americas would not change any of that.
Yet, we find NONE of these things in the New World at that time, nothing, nada, zilch.
If you got on a ship, and sailed somewhere else, how much of this would you suddenly forget?
Would your DNA change on this boat trip-putting you on a completely different branch of the human family?
Even when people break off from others, some things ALWAYS, ALWAYS stay the same.
For instance, when America broke off from England, they went from the pound to the dollar-but you would NEVER go from a base ten numerical system to a six. . .ever.
It would completely upend your mathematics, currency, calendars, and well, everything numerical.
So, we are left with two possibilities: The Israelites, and the inhabitants of the Americas not only were not the same peoples-they never even met each other.
Or. . . Iron Age immigrants apparently managed to somehow forget what a wheel was, how to smelt iron, use wagons and carts, plow animals, make pottery or glass, speak or write their own language-and inexplicably converted from the base ten number system-on a single boat trip.
Oh, and their DNA changed-a biological impossibility.
EVERYTHING ELSE about Mormonism and The Book of Mormon hinges on the claim that Israelites came to The New World in the time frame alleged by Joseph Smith.
If this “historical account” is just incredibly clumsy, EASILY debunked mythology, it knocks the legs out from under ALL Mormon theology.
So, the real question is: Where does this evidence point?
My evidence is what the Holy Spirit has told me. He has told me that Joseph Smith was visited by Jesus Christ and His Father. The angel Moroni came to Joseph Smith and revealed the gold plates. By the gift and power of God Joseph Smith translated the gold plates as the Book of Mormon. The power of God that revealed these things to me. I do not need science to prove these things - but I do believe that eventually science will prove these things correct. Hope to see you on the other side.
Okay. Val is awesome. But this idea of Laman and Lemuel being good jews doesn’t make any sense. It’s not complicated to follow a scripture chain that makes it very clear that Zedekiah was continuing to participate in Manassah’s slaughtering of innocent blood. More than likely children sacrifice. Josiah tried to fix it, but his son picked it right back up. The people that Lewi was preaching to were supporting the slaughtering of innocents. Laman and Lemuel wished to go back to that. Good Jews? No. Nephi was a not a bully that got to shape the narrative.
What the guest means is that Laman and Lemuel were "good" according to their adopted religion and according to how the Jews at Jerusalem thought.
I didn't know that the angel who took Lehi to follow him was Jesus!! 😮