@@AlexRochette Part of the proposals to shorteneing a Grand Tour to 15 days was allowing you to bring in more racers mid race to replace injured or tired riders.
Does the Movistar DS not realize subs will be a huge disadvantage to his team. The teams with larger budgets will have greater depth. Thus they will benefit from it more. And who wants Cav subbed in on the Champs to take the stage and the record? Stupid idea.
@@tomschenk5148 We don't race on "The Champs" this year, we finish the Tour in Nice due to the Olympics in Paris. Thus I guess that Cav can better stay at home. 😉✌
@swissbiggy Thanks for reminding me. I just don't like the idea of subs for many reasons. That final TT this year is going to be something to watch, especially with the climbs. Cav 2025?🤣
I usually just listen to the audio...tuning in on youtube for this one....HOLY CRAP! The podcast has apparently got a lot more fit over the last few months. Now I feel like a fat ass...
First love the weekly stream/pod. Second spat my chocolate protein shake out when Pat mentioned the French Farmers Protest Classic Thirdly can’t believe there wasn’t an emergency podcast after the Belgium victory over Portugal. 6 Nations rugby beckons
Shortening grand tours, maybe, I could see that happening within some general overhaul of professional cycling and the seasons. Substitutions in races/grand tours, no, I can't see that happening. I am loving the new podcast! An excellent opportunity to hear your thoughts on this additional topics that would either be skipped or shortened if your content is race coverage only.
I've been checking MAX every couple days and they have added some upcoming races and have recent replays as well finally. On the B-R Sports tab of the MAX app
I really liked the segment on discussing possible changes to Grand Tours, and by the look of comments other people liked it too. Also love the race analysis but just wanna point out that discussions on the future of cycling, not just the rules, but also the calendar, the UCI structure, the broadcasting, etc. is so fun, even if it's all hypothetical; it questions everything. Curious on why you say Athletics is going through what cycling went through in 2000s. Hope you can expand on that.
For concussion you could use the standard baseline questionnaire riders complete at the beginning of the year. Rider crashes and then spends 20 minutes in the doctor's cars and then does the baseline test - Pass and rejoin the peleton while if you fail you are out. This can only apply for stage races.
Concussions can have a delayed impact, immediately after a crash most people are full of adrenaline. An hour later the rider might be woozy and vomiting on the side of the road. The main risk is heart damage because the human body tried to protect itself against further brain injury by over activating the sympathetic system as far as heart rate goes. It means athletes can go into autonomic dysfunction and risk cardiomyopathy trying to exert yourself through it.
Another point is that force of impact is unrelated to severity of concussion in the sense that you can get a life altering concussion from knocking your head relatively lightly against your headboard in not-fully-awake-yet morning grogginess. Neurons are complicated…
Oh yeah, that delayed impact mentioned above is also the reason that standard concussion procedure is to observe the person for 24 hours, waking them from sleep every 4-6 hours to make sure they _can_ wake and respond properly, even if we’re talking about a five-year-old bike rider who needs 10-12 hours sleep per night, looks perfectly normal and sleep is necessary for healing.
A classic LR and Benji episode - truly a thing of wonder. It arrived with class 'A' swearing and sly quips - (prosecutor) "sets his alarm for June 30th". No to shorter Grand Tours. Yes to some shorter stages. No to 200+ kms stages. PS: Why is it not possible in 2024 to equip motorcycle marshals with information boards that riders can actually read? Yes to LED illuminated electronic signs that can be simply digitally amended with updates. No to hand-held whiteboards scrawled in marker pen with illegible time-gap information that no rider can decipher due to reflection and glare. PPS: All digital, livestream and television race coverage to show distance to go/time elapsed/position of race on a route plan/ race profile/ selected rider data. Ladies and Gentlemen - welcome to 2024!
Regarding the head impact thing, HIT (founded by a former Rugby player), already exists. It's basically a 3 axis accelerometer that glows different colors based on the impact. It can be fit to any helmet, so this is something that could be implemented without any new tech integration.
Cav subbed in on the Champs to beat Eddie. Stupidest idea I have heard this week. Plus it would benefit teams with larger budgets more because they could afford more depth.
@@tomschenk5148 You'd see 90 kg track sprinters on teams with pure focus on dominating pancake flat stages and pulled out before the first mountain stage or pulled in after them.
I agree if it's strategic subs to give an edge over other teams, but I think that having the opportunity to substitute a rider who has crashed makes it only more fair, even more so if it's more than one rider. Having a team without one or multiple riders compared to a full team of 8 is a huge disadvantage and it could also help with the point that riders would be less prone to keep trucking along, half injured, risking serious long lasting damages
@patrickschulze3787 I thought I liked it at first too. Who determines if the rider has had a crash severe enough to allow them to be subbed out? Could a rider take a dive into a soft ditch and roll around screaming like a soccer player after a tackle looking for a call? It may also lead to poorer bike handling in the peloton. Some say it is bad enough already compared to yesteryear. I don't know. It is a tough nut to crack. Either way I am watching every race I can.
Thank you for saying that about Eurosport, drives me crazy when they can't fill their ad spots they don't just take advantage to offer a better service (attracting more viewers and ultimately more advertisers), but they fill it with showing the same clips over and over!
Im with benji on concussion. changing the mindset is key. It’s also the riders health and ultimately the rider is responsible as in he/she will have to live with the consequences
I disagree. Don't blame the players, blame the game. If you just appeal to change the mindset while the rules incentivize riding injured, that will not work out. And especially it can't be riders responsibility who mostly won't realize their own concussion.
Last year I got hooked on the women’s racing thru the GCN app. Was devastated to see it close down as here in Australia we get no real cycling coverage here
No to shortening the grand tours. There are only three grand tours each year and to win one places a rider in a very special category. Part of winning a grand tour is the ability to survive three weeks. Second, the most insane idea I have heard is to allow substitutions during a grand tour or any race for that matter. Again, grand tours are three weeks long and the ability of teams to avoid significant loss of riders plays into the success of the team. I disagree with Patrick that substituting a rider means that rider is just the ninth best rider on the team. No, a substitution can change a team's focus from being a GC team to a sprint team or vice versa. It can change the entire focus of the team. At the beginning of a tour, the team management has determined if they are going to send a team specifically for GC, or specifically for sprints, or even for stage hunting. Call me an old fogey traditionalist, but I like the way things are currently. And if the rationale is because some teams are too well funded compared to others, there are ways to combat that, such as salary caps or even better, revenue sharing. Again I am very opposed to both shortening grand tours and substituting riders during races.
Agreed. Shortening the Grand Tours cheapens the achievement. Substitutions... absolutely ridiculous. I've managed to stay a fan since the early 90s and If both these things actually happen? I dunno... it won't be the same sport. No thank you.
I agree with the shortening, though in regards of substitutions, I stand by it only as in regards of a strategical substitution, whereas I think that a sub in case of a crash, could only be of benefit to the race and sport in general. Crashing is really a case of bad luck, and if a team is unaffected, compared to a team that might completely lose one or multiple riders, they will have a clear advantage. Also, it might help to avoid trucking along after having had a crash, which some riders do as they know that they can still be of help after having healed, but at the same time are putting their health in danger.
But that is the nature of the sport, it is brutal at times, but that's why people watch it and that's why it is glorious when riders overcome adversity and recover during the three weeks. Substitutions would make a grand tour a series of individual races and not a stamina event. It's a crazy gimmicky proposal that should be laughed out of the room by anyone with an understanding of the history of the sport. What next, halftime stage breaks?@@patrickschulze3787
I’m so glad you guys address the doping head on, and not skirt it or avoid it because you may not get access to teams/riders. I feel so many cycling journos/podcasts are cowardly in this regard. I heard one say “I just refuse to ask the question my producer tells me to ask about doping” 🤨. You shouldn’t be in the business if you have too many buddies, I think that’s the problem. And I don’t think the public are that in the dark, with times like the last TDF and ridiculous ‘come backs’ & Van Hooydonck incident. It’s not rocket science.
Patricks point about concussions could also be addressed by allowing a driver to DNF a stage after a crash (should be ruled as a crash by the commissaires). I like the idea of substitutes in the first week if a crash happens and a driver is out. However, I don't like substitutes due to sickness or something like that.
Guys, MIPS and other similar constructions in helmets are methods for dissipating energy during the crash and preventing the energy dissipation to happen in the riders head. Adding sensors to existing designs will not work as the sensors will change the mechanics of the helmet and possibly make them less safe. So the helmets will need to be designed with the sensor design in mind, ideally they would be integrated into the design process from the start to not compromise safety. This is the way it was done in the NFL, as a joint effort of the league and the helmet providers. The budget of the NFL obviously make these projects easier as this kind of thing doesn't come for small bucks.
Inrng had a big article on the blood passport. First the computer algorithm throws a warning that something is wrong, with pretty wide confidence intervals (I think even more than 95%). Then a professional looks at it. If that person thinks it's fishy, the data will be send to three experts and only if all three independently conclude the data are not natural, it becomes a doping case. As an Ajax fan I know all too much about doping in football, because the big Ajax of the 90s lots twice to a Juventus with players that kept on running. Team doctor Agricola eventually got arrested for it. To be fair, a few Ajax players got caught too. If I remember well, Jaap Stam and Frank de Boer. The lack of doping labs in Africa especially creates concerns about athletics superpower Kenya.
this is my solution for losing GCN+ here in the US: Peacock, B/R on Max and Flo. Seems silly (and expensive) but it covers most of the bases. I like the weekly recap!
Substitutes should apply up to stage 9 - Remember the 2023 Vuelta when nearly the whole Jayco team crashed in the stage one ITT and they were forced to race with sick and injured riders - At least if there was a substitute it would protect some of the Jayco riders.
Thanks for noting that! I thought they were just live. I've been VPNing into FloBikes Canada, but their platform isn't ideal. So glad we've got racing! Whew.
LOTS of testing needed before the mouth guards can tell if someone has had a concussion but cycling would be a great place to start adding to the data pool.
Agreed that there's no way to know if riders are clean. With the past of this sport, I will always be skeptical, but I do think the testing has come a long way so I think innocent till proven guilty is okay. On a separate note, so glad they added a replay ability to the BR Sports add-on to HBO max for races because I'm not waking up at 2:30 a.m. to watch the UAE Tour
They use "natural" products now, testosterone and other hormones, their own red cells that they store to reinject when needed, etc... Even if you'd expect lower concentrations in the blood after a few days of racing, everyone has slightly different levels, so if done correctly, no way to prove anything with the test! Also they do most of the "medical" work during training, weeks before the tour.
Let's be real, guys, the UCI's whole angle is in keeping as much money in the sport and the sponsors happy as possible, and that means sweeping as much controversy as possible under the rug.
Thanks for another great show this week. Has the Movistar DS bumped his head? If they allow subs does he not realize UAEs 10 best rider is better than their 4th best? It will be a huge advantage for teams with larger budgets. And i could see Astana subbing in Cav on the Champs for the win and top Merckz's record.
Maybe because I’m relatively new to watching pro road cycling but I think substitutions in grand tours could be very interesting tactically and strategically. Other sports have substitutions and every team has to think carefully when they want to make a substitution and who to substitute. For instance, in a grand tours, if every team has a chance to make a substitution, they can decide if they want to substitute for an injured rider or not. To solve the GC question, only riders who complete all stages would be eligible for the general classification (same for the points and mountains classifications). So teams that compete for GC might utilize their substitutions differently than those whose goals are focused on stage winning only. Would this change road cycling? I think that yes, it does. But I also don’t think change is always bad. Other sports seem to experiment with rule changes much more than cycling and don’t seem to suffer for it. Tennis has changed a number of rules at the grand slams in recent years. It’s gone over relatively well. And I would argue that tennis is as “old” a sport as cycling…
Re. standardisation, I don't think is as difficult to enforce as you guys think. Unless things changed there is at least one sport at the Olympics, windsurf, that is single class. Everybody uses the same board and sail (with maybe only a difference for men/women in sail surface area). And I don't mean just same spec, it's the same brand. The UCI could do the same, award an X year contract to a helmet manufacturer, and after the period passes open another tender for another manufacturer to potentially be the one providing helmets.
On the subject of a rider crashing, what about a mandatory assesment by the medical team with a slightly more thorogh check, if needed, and if found to be ok to continue, then the rider is brought back to the bunch via mechanical means? possibly by a specific vehicle which has facilities to easily carry more than one rider. Because if it wasn't his fault that he was forced to stop for the check, then he should be returned to his position. It would perhaps make the rider feel more amenable to be roadside checked without losing time for something that wasn't his fault. Would that work?
So sad about losing GCN+. Here in the states we will have to deal with Max for a lot pricier viewing. If you are happy with your streaming service, enjoy it. Next year the price will double or it will be gone.
agreed that discovery is a big downgrade from gcn+ (and i have no interest in most of their content) but there's been 2 documentaries that i've enjoyed - one on the fdj women's team and one with anton palzer. i think quintana was blacklisted because he appealed to cas (court of arbitration for sport)
The BR add on to max is good and I’ve enjoyed it so far. Not sure why the coverage only started this past weekend. Subs brings a whole new complexity to cycling, in the tour for example why wouldn’t a sprinter only show up to a sprint stages? The likes of wout would be punished for being a better rider because he needs to work for his team unlike other riders on smaller teams. I do think riders should be able to retire from the stage but they must start the the following day . They could get the time cut +30 mins or something and could only be done 2-3 times per grand tour to prevent just resting
40:00 As far as I know in the doping case, the former manager of Euskaltel is in trouble not only because he leaked the documents but also because that same doctor treated more cyclist in other pro teams, including Euskaltel, and he modified the document to hide it.
Gary Neville should read The Secret Race, by Tyler Hamilton, re Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, ( Doc for at least 2 Spanish football teams, and possibly, the German national team )
I'm really against the idea of subs in the Grand Tours (or any other stage race, for that matter). I think it would really devalue the worth of a stage win if a sub won a stage. Or what if a domestique is subbed in and does an insane job and affects the top placings on GC?
@@HolgerDanske874 That's the world we are living in, most students get doped to pass their exams today, even in medicine! mostly amphetamines, like Ritalin, etc... Life is a competition, and most can not compete without some "support"... Else you are out of the race - and I'm talking from personal experience!
Big money will kill pro cycling, the real rationale for shortening the GT’s is to pack more races in the calendar and these will be races that come with mega rich sponsors who will then use their financial leverage to force more and more changes.
It's not about having more races in the calendar, but to have the riders race in more/different races in the current calendar. The UCI world tour is pretty much a fixed staple, perhaps within this calendar races can be "upgraded" or "downgraded" to gain more prestige, but it's unlikely that new races will be introduced.
@@patrickschulze3787 nah I disagree lots of new money waiting in the wings for time slots to be opened by measures like making GT’s two weeks instead of three.
@@epincion ok, it is a very good point, and at the end if there's more money, it's not bad. Problem is that it would lead to a certain death for grand tours: having an easier variant of something that once was considered to be the three hardest races on the calendar, would mean that many wouldn't care to watch it and many wouldn't bother winning anymore, meaning even less viewers, eventually having to cancel the whole race itself, which is kind of sad.
MIPs is a licensed standard, its like the gortex model. Ie diff companies can use it if they want but then have to meet the MIPs standard. So it cant be “Stnadardised” as benji said. Its just a case of if companies want to use it, there are alternatives by other firms.
@@BenjiNaesenTV exactly. There can be standardisation and the existence of MIPs doesnt indicate there cant. MIPs is totally different to any standardisation of helmet requirements.
Just remarking to your early remarks about the mine field of coverage of particular events, the loss of GCN+ has crushed my ability to view stuff in the U.S. Flobikes used to be an OK supplement to that as well as whatever Peacock was showing in terms of major cycling events. But now I am starting to feel like New Zealand as anyone who heard Dan Lloyd talk about what was coming up on GCN+, it was almost guaranteed that the end of that would be "Except in New Zealand". Oh, and over 80 percent of what Flobikes has said is on the schedule, isn't watchable in the U.S. A little out of place for the entire subject of your broadcast, but I'm venting right now as I have lost my fix for cycle racing and cyclocross just ended.
Vingegaard his time trial in the tdf is the craziest thing i've ever seen someone perform on a bike... Beats even Cancellara his 4 bike changes in one race for no 'reason'. (I'm too young to saw anquetil race, apparently he had a bigger Gap - a km- than vingegaard... The only one.. not even Indurain Came close)
37:50 correct me if I am wrong, I think its FSH + LH. I don't hear too much of people using it, people in the gym just use hGC. It should do the same. This is why I follow cycling, the drug choices there are interesting. People should be more open about what they use and what the PEDs do exactly. What was this reaction to the menotropin? I wish there was someone asking the cyclists about this stuff. Instead, everything is a taboo, and nobody is willing to talk. 52:57 football is by far the worst sport when it comes to doping control. Cycling (or any other sport) shouldn't be compare to it.
Regarding Lopez, It's unclear whether the use of LH was due to a preexisting issue (apparently a tendon inflammation) or the cause of a reaction. Either way, how do you suggest that someone asks cyclists (athletes in general) about this stuff? if you're using banned substances you will deny it because they're banned, if you're not, you will still deny it because you're not. Everything is taboo, because maybe doping is illegal, dodgy and dangerous. Unless you're caught, you obviously don't open your mouth. And even if you have been caught, it's not something that you just brush off. In most countries, you're not just a cheater, but a criminal too.
@@patrickschulze3787 @patrickschulze3787 If you are caught, or retired I see no problem. Plenty of people talk about steroids, both professional athletes and amateurs, all over the world, even though using steroids is a criminal offense in many countries. I hope the mindset in cycling changes because this is one of (if not the) most advanced sports when it comes to performance-enhancing. There is so much to learn from cyclists. For example, years ago there was a boom in the use of noble gases in cycling. While this wasn't really cutting edge, it was the cyclist who perfected their use, and they know more about it than anyone else. Things like that made me follow the sport. And speaking of the legality of doping, I don't think anything that is so widely used should be a criminal offense. This is a widespread trick used by dictators. If a lot of people use something, and you ban it, you can't punish every one of those people, but you can use the ban to attack your political opponents. For example, you can look at Russia, where every politician speaks about the war, even though you still are not allowed to use the word "war". But only anti-Putin journalists are sent to prison because of this. The private military companies are also still illegal in Russia. The law was never changed. It's made so that Putin will have the option, if he wants, to imprison the next Prigozhin. It would be insane if someone decided to enforce all the anti-doping laws. There would be millions of prisoners. So why have those laws in the first place. I also don't agree that PEDs/illegal drugs are necessarily more dangerous. For example, most people who don't use PEDs, but want to lower their prolactin level, use high dosage of B6. This can lead to irreversible nerve damage - www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-alerts/health-supplements-containing-vitamin-b6-can-cause-peripheral-neuropathy . It would be much better and much, much safer to use prescription drugs like cabergoline or pramipexole. This, of course, is not allowed. You can't use prescription drugs without a prescription, right? So not everything that is illegal is worse for your health, and not everything that is "natural" is better. But that's not the point. The point is even without any laws being changed, people like Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Quintana, etc. should speak more openly about the PEDs, they've used. Including the negative side effects. They don't do it, because the public would be outraged. This is what needs to change, the mindset of the public. Sure, these people did something against the rules. But they were caught (well Quintana was anyway, Armstrong wasn't caught in time), and were punished. Now let us hear their honest opinion - which PED helped them the most, which was useless, which had the worst side effects, and how they chose their cocktails.
This will never happen if the public is too dismissive. You shouldn't just say "Steroids are doggy" or "Steroids are bad for your health". The doping use among the general public will only rise if you feed them such uninformed opinions. Cycling has a (well-deserved in my opinion) reputation as one of the most doped-up sports. Instead of shamefully trying to hide every scandal, just embrace the true nature of this sport. Plus, doping already happened. You can't change that. Now let us at least learn something from it.
@@patrickschulze3787 I've spent 30 minutes to write a whole page as a response, only for youtube to remove my comment. It happens... If you want, I can email you my thoughts or something. Although what's the point...
In Canada Flobikes ssems to have picked up a lot of those mall races from gcn/eurosport with their commentators. Normally I would describe flobikes as scum of the earth, but they so far have been reasonable this season.
In some sense prosecuting doctors makes sense as they are prescribing controlled substances under false pretense. That has ramifications way beyond cycling - opioid epidemic exhibit one.
exactly, although I think they weren't undermining the gravity of doping and prescription of banned substances, but more so that sometimes it appears that the athlete who has been making use of doping, almost "gets away" with it
Really appreciate you going into the doping situation in cycling. Other sports mostly ignore it whereas cycling has done well facing up to the problems over the past decade or so. Far from perfect but sunlight is an excellent disinfectant.
Thanks guys ! Would be nice to index the race recaps. I mean it's nice to cover the womens race, but some people like me just don't care (sometimes I check the monuments if Kopecky is a favourite, if I really have nothing to do) and want to skip them in one click ;)
Imagine if Sepp Kuss was forced to sit in a team car for 6 hours a day - essentially detraining and then substituted in for the last week in the mountains. I know how his legs would feel 😂
Tolhok got popped in Chiang Mai, Thailand. From the rumours I heard living in CM last year, a lot of weekend warriors based there use anabolics. Tolhok was doing a lot of appearances at fun races. Is it possible he could have just drank out of someones finishing bidon? I find it hard to believe he would use that type of steroid as a PED.
The Tolhoek defense is that Thailand has a big doping problem... of pigs. So contaminated pork, like Contador. Apparently it is not completely pulled out of thin air; there have been some studies on tourists who tested positive after a holiday. But I also guess the doping rules say it is the rider's own responsibility to avoid contaminated food. That's what I would put in.
I hate the idea of substitute riders. When Remco blew up on stage 13 of La Vuelta last year, from that point forward it felt like he was just stage sniping. He would go super hard one day and win a stage then take the next 2-3 stages off to rest. Then gun for another stage win. I think if you had subs you would see more cases of fringe GC hopefuls stage sniping and that would make stage wins feel more hollow.
Not only should subs not be allowed in cycling, but stage wins, places and points should vanish if a rider DNFs. Sprinting is often a ridiculous sideshow in tours.
This weekly stuff makes my dopamine levels go thermonuclear
2😊questions we ýhyq2ee0e91qep0q9pe0p39q9222qqq2🎉27th om22🎉
Part of the fascination of Grand Tours is sprinters fighting against time cuts in the mountains. I don't like substitutions.
What substitutions are you talking about?
@@AlexRochette Part of the proposals to shorteneing a Grand Tour to 15 days was allowing you to bring in more racers mid race to replace injured or tired riders.
Does the Movistar DS not realize subs will be a huge disadvantage to his team. The teams with larger budgets will have greater depth. Thus they will benefit from it more. And who wants Cav subbed in on the Champs to take the stage and the record? Stupid idea.
@@tomschenk5148 We don't race on "The Champs" this year, we finish the Tour in Nice due to the Olympics in Paris. Thus I guess that Cav can better stay at home. 😉✌
@swissbiggy Thanks for reminding me. I just don't like the idea of subs for many reasons. That final TT this year is going to be something to watch, especially with the climbs. Cav 2025?🤣
Gcn+ you are missed
flowbike
Flobikes sucks. Their announcers are the worst if they even have any.
What better in canada bhai?@@mikew466
Enjoying B/R on Max in USA. Not as good as GCN +
Flo bikes is the worst. No way to accurately rewind or fast forward on smart TV. Terrible interface. Costs 3 times more than gcn+.
Benji you looking in super shape, so happy to see it.
Just thought that!
I usually just listen to the audio...tuning in on youtube for this one....HOLY CRAP! The podcast has apparently got a lot more fit over the last few months. Now I feel like a fat ass...
Do Something against it, you can do it 💪💪
Take your bike and ride
Guys keep up these weekly pods, I absolutely love them!!
I can’t even remember a single cobbled descent, you really don’t have to be afraid of the challenge! I loved it, its just amazing there
First love the weekly stream/pod.
Second spat my chocolate protein shake out when Pat mentioned the French Farmers Protest Classic
Thirdly can’t believe there wasn’t an emergency podcast after the Belgium victory over Portugal. 6 Nations rugby beckons
Shortening grand tours, maybe, I could see that happening within some general overhaul of professional cycling and the seasons. Substitutions in races/grand tours, no, I can't see that happening. I am loving the new podcast! An excellent opportunity to hear your thoughts on this additional topics that would either be skipped or shortened if your content is race coverage only.
Thanks for the content.
Keep the amazing work. You're the best.
Thanks for the tip on BR Sports, had no idea! They even streamed Clásica Jean Paraiso today 😮
Peacock in US has a lot of cycling content as well. Fantastic work on the podcast..
I've been checking MAX every couple days and they have added some upcoming races and have recent replays as well finally. On the B-R Sports tab of the MAX app
Peacock is nice for the big races but they only have the races run by ASO
I really liked the segment on discussing possible changes to Grand Tours, and by the look of comments other people liked it too. Also love the race analysis but just wanna point out that discussions on the future of cycling, not just the rules, but also the calendar, the UCI structure, the broadcasting, etc. is so fun, even if it's all hypothetical; it questions everything.
Curious on why you say Athletics is going through what cycling went through in 2000s. Hope you can expand on that.
For concussion you could use the standard baseline questionnaire riders complete at the beginning of the year. Rider crashes and then spends 20 minutes in the doctor's cars and then does the baseline test - Pass and rejoin the peleton while if you fail you are out. This can only apply for stage races.
Concussions can have a delayed impact, immediately after a crash most people are full of adrenaline. An hour later the rider might be woozy and vomiting on the side of the road. The main risk is heart damage because the human body tried to protect itself against further brain injury by over activating the sympathetic system as far as heart rate goes. It means athletes can go into autonomic dysfunction and risk cardiomyopathy trying to exert yourself through it.
Another point is that force of impact is unrelated to severity of concussion in the sense that you can get a life altering concussion from knocking your head relatively lightly against your headboard in not-fully-awake-yet morning grogginess. Neurons are complicated…
Oh yeah, that delayed impact mentioned above is also the reason that standard concussion procedure is to observe the person for 24 hours, waking them from sleep every 4-6 hours to make sure they _can_ wake and respond properly, even if we’re talking about a five-year-old bike rider who needs 10-12 hours sleep per night, looks perfectly normal and sleep is necessary for healing.
Buchmann Giro 2021 got caught up in a crash in stage 15, DNF due to concussion protocol, could have gotten a top 5 imo
I’m just hear for the Benji MacOS auto reaction emoji’s 😂👍🏽
Patrick has all the jokes today 😂
Love it + algorithm boost
A classic LR and Benji episode - truly a thing of wonder. It arrived with class 'A' swearing and sly quips - (prosecutor) "sets his alarm for June 30th". No to shorter Grand Tours. Yes to some shorter stages. No to 200+ kms stages. PS: Why is it not possible in 2024 to equip motorcycle marshals with information boards that riders can actually read? Yes to LED illuminated electronic signs that can be simply digitally amended with updates. No to hand-held whiteboards scrawled in marker pen with illegible time-gap information that no rider can decipher due to reflection and glare. PPS: All digital, livestream and television race coverage to show distance to go/time elapsed/position of race on a route plan/ race profile/ selected rider data. Ladies and Gentlemen - welcome to 2024!
it would be awesome during the race previews if LR could mention which races will have highlight vids on the main channel
Fun factoid: the MIPS system that Benji mentions at around 1:02:30 is the reason why Pogi's hair sticks out of the helmet
Regarding the head impact thing, HIT (founded by a former Rugby player), already exists. It's basically a 3 axis accelerometer that glows different colors based on the impact. It can be fit to any helmet, so this is something that could be implemented without any new tech integration.
You can't substitute someone into a stage race, they'll just go in fresh and win stages against guys who've been riding for 15 days
Cav subbed in on the Champs to beat Eddie. Stupidest idea I have heard this week. Plus it would benefit teams with larger budgets more because they could afford more depth.
@@tomschenk5148 You'd see 90 kg track sprinters on teams with pure focus on dominating pancake flat stages and pulled out before the first mountain stage or pulled in after them.
I agree if it's strategic subs to give an edge over other teams, but I think that having the opportunity to substitute a rider who has crashed makes it only more fair, even more so if it's more than one rider. Having a team without one or multiple riders compared to a full team of 8 is a huge disadvantage and it could also help with the point that riders would be less prone to keep trucking along, half injured, risking serious long lasting damages
@patrickschulze3787 I thought I liked it at first too. Who determines if the rider has had a crash severe enough to allow them to be subbed out? Could a rider take a dive into a soft ditch and roll around screaming like a soccer player after a tackle looking for a call? It may also lead to poorer bike handling in the peloton. Some say it is bad enough already compared to yesteryear. I don't know. It is a tough nut to crack. Either way I am watching every race I can.
@@oldtwinsna8347 think Cav 2025 subbed in on the Champs. 🤣
Love the respect given to the women’s pro cycling❤
You guys are the best, awesome episode and the FFPC is the line of the year so far! 😂
Thank you for saying that about Eurosport, drives me crazy when they can't fill their ad spots they don't just take advantage to offer a better service (attracting more viewers and ultimately more advertisers), but they fill it with showing the same clips over and over!
Im with benji on concussion. changing the mindset is key. It’s also the riders health and ultimately the rider is responsible as in he/she will have to live with the consequences
I disagree. Don't blame the players, blame the game.
If you just appeal to change the mindset while the rules incentivize riding injured, that will not work out.
And especially it can't be riders responsibility who mostly won't realize their own concussion.
Last year I got hooked on the women’s racing thru the GCN app. Was devastated to see it close down as here in Australia we get no real cycling coverage here
No to shortening the grand tours. There are only three grand tours each year and to win one places a rider in a very special category. Part of winning a grand tour is the ability to survive three weeks.
Second, the most insane idea I have heard is to allow substitutions during a grand tour or any race for that matter. Again, grand tours are three weeks long and the ability of teams to avoid significant loss of riders plays into the success of the team. I disagree with Patrick that substituting a rider means that rider is just the ninth best rider on the team. No, a substitution can change a team's focus from being a GC team to a sprint team or vice versa. It can change the entire focus of the team. At the beginning of a tour, the team management has determined if they are going to send a team specifically for GC, or specifically for sprints, or even for stage hunting.
Call me an old fogey traditionalist, but I like the way things are currently. And if the rationale is because some teams are too well funded compared to others, there are ways to combat that, such as salary caps or even better, revenue sharing. Again I am very opposed to both shortening grand tours and substituting riders during races.
Agreed. Shortening the Grand Tours cheapens the achievement. Substitutions... absolutely ridiculous. I've managed to stay a fan since the early 90s and If both these things actually happen? I dunno... it won't be the same sport. No thank you.
If they were shortened they wouldn't be Grand Tours. That was the dumbest idea I've ever heard from a SD
2nd dumbest idea ever from a SD is the substitutions. Just, no
I agree with the shortening, though in regards of substitutions, I stand by it only as in regards of a strategical substitution, whereas I think that a sub in case of a crash, could only be of benefit to the race and sport in general. Crashing is really a case of bad luck, and if a team is unaffected, compared to a team that might completely lose one or multiple riders, they will have a clear advantage. Also, it might help to avoid trucking along after having had a crash, which some riders do as they know that they can still be of help after having healed, but at the same time are putting their health in danger.
But that is the nature of the sport, it is brutal at times, but that's why people watch it and that's why it is glorious when riders overcome adversity and recover during the three weeks. Substitutions would make a grand tour a series of individual races and not a stamina event. It's a crazy gimmicky proposal that should be laughed out of the room by anyone with an understanding of the history of the sport. What next, halftime stage breaks?@@patrickschulze3787
The EPO test improved in 2022 I think. See Laurent Martin 2021 paper which is referenced in the newest WADA EPO document..
When Benji is back in the UK, I hope he delves into the utter randomness which is the non-sport content on Discovery+
Love the format
great podcast!
I’m very pleased with Max B/R here in the US (Santa Barbara), and for now it’s free with a regular subscription. Lots of chat gbt races.
Could you put women’s’ cycling in as a chapter - it’s all I’m interested in saves skipping through the men’s’ race content 😉
great sugestion
I’m so glad you guys address the doping head on, and not skirt it or avoid it because you may not get access to teams/riders. I feel so many cycling journos/podcasts are cowardly in this regard. I heard one say “I just refuse to ask the question my producer tells me to ask about doping” 🤨. You shouldn’t be in the business if you have too many buddies, I think that’s the problem. And I don’t think the public are that in the dark, with times like the last TDF and ridiculous ‘come backs’ & Van Hooydonck incident. It’s not rocket science.
I think the NFL already has the helmet technology that Patrick is speaking of. Should be easy enough to transfer to a cycling helmet.
I believe so too. I think they use some form of a decelerameter.
Patricks point about concussions could also be addressed by allowing a driver to DNF a stage after a crash (should be ruled as a crash by the commissaires).
I like the idea of substitutes in the first week if a crash happens and a driver is out. However, I don't like substitutes due to sickness or something like that.
Guys, MIPS and other similar constructions in helmets are methods for dissipating energy during the crash and preventing the energy dissipation to happen in the riders head. Adding sensors to existing designs will not work as the sensors will change the mechanics of the helmet and possibly make them less safe. So the helmets will need to be designed with the sensor design in mind, ideally they would be integrated into the design process from the start to not compromise safety. This is the way it was done in the NFL, as a joint effort of the league and the helmet providers. The budget of the NFL obviously make these projects easier as this kind of thing doesn't come for small bucks.
Inrng had a big article on the blood passport. First the computer algorithm throws a warning that something is wrong, with pretty wide confidence intervals (I think even more than 95%). Then a professional looks at it. If that person thinks it's fishy, the data will be send to three experts and only if all three independently conclude the data are not natural, it becomes a doping case.
As an Ajax fan I know all too much about doping in football, because the big Ajax of the 90s lots twice to a Juventus with players that kept on running. Team doctor Agricola eventually got arrested for it. To be fair, a few Ajax players got caught too. If I remember well, Jaap Stam and Frank de Boer.
The lack of doping labs in Africa especially creates concerns about athletics superpower Kenya.
this is my solution for losing GCN+ here in the US: Peacock, B/R on Max and Flo. Seems silly (and expensive) but it covers most of the bases. I like the weekly recap!
Any news on cycling coverage in Australia yet?
Substitutes should apply up to stage 9 - Remember the 2023 Vuelta when nearly the whole Jayco team crashed in the stage one ITT and they were forced to race with sick and injured riders - At least if there was a substitute it would protect some of the Jayco riders.
Yeah Max has been great, and they did decide to have VOD's available, unsure how long though they are up for though.
Thanks for noting that! I thought they were just live. I've been VPNing into FloBikes Canada, but their platform isn't ideal. So glad we've got racing! Whew.
they are also not testing at night they just manipulate the timing of dosage
During the Tour they do test at night
Rugby here in the Uk are currently testing mouth guards with sensors to measure impacts for exactly the reasons you are discussing.
LOTS of testing needed before the mouth guards can tell if someone has had a concussion but cycling would be a great place to start adding to the data pool.
respect
Agreed that there's no way to know if riders are clean. With the past of this sport, I will always be skeptical, but I do think the testing has come a long way so I think innocent till proven guilty is okay. On a separate note, so glad they added a replay ability to the BR Sports add-on to HBO max for races because I'm not waking up at 2:30 a.m. to watch the UAE Tour
They use "natural" products now, testosterone and other hormones, their own red cells that they store to reinject when needed, etc...
Even if you'd expect lower concentrations in the blood after a few days of racing, everyone has slightly different levels, so if done correctly, no way to prove anything with the test!
Also they do most of the "medical" work during training, weeks before the tour.
Blood doping was used by Lance Armstrong, et al.
Human behavior is based upon risk/reward incentive structures. If there is a benefit that outweighs the risk then people will do it.
Does anyone have a link to the longform article referenced re doping? Not in the show notes as far as i can see, only the LR article about testing.
Let's be real, guys, the UCI's whole angle is in keeping as much money in the sport and the sponsors happy as possible, and that means sweeping as much controversy as possible under the rug.
Thanks for another great show this week. Has the Movistar DS bumped his head? If they allow subs does he not realize UAEs 10 best rider is better than their 4th best? It will be a huge advantage for teams with larger budgets. And i could see Astana subbing in Cav on the Champs for the win and top Merckz's record.
Maybe because I’m relatively new to watching pro road cycling but I think substitutions in grand tours could be very interesting tactically and strategically. Other sports have substitutions and every team has to think carefully when they want to make a substitution and who to substitute.
For instance, in a grand tours, if every team has a chance to make a substitution, they can decide if they want to substitute for an injured rider or not. To solve the GC question, only riders who complete all stages would be eligible for the general classification (same for the points and mountains classifications). So teams that compete for GC might utilize their substitutions differently than those whose goals are focused on stage winning only.
Would this change road cycling? I think that yes, it does. But I also don’t think change is always bad.
Other sports seem to experiment with rule changes much more than cycling and don’t seem to suffer for it. Tennis has changed a number of rules at the grand slams in recent years. It’s gone over relatively well. And I would argue that tennis is as “old” a sport as cycling…
Yeah, looking good Benji
The algarve race is on discovery + ????
El Tractor at little trek!
I legit spent a while trying to puzzle out what the Tour of Mercia was 😅😂
I honestly thought that sussy's was an among us reference this entire time😂
Disco plus has made cycling viewing go back in time by 10 years
Re. standardisation, I don't think is as difficult to enforce as you guys think. Unless things changed there is at least one sport at the Olympics, windsurf, that is single class. Everybody uses the same board and sail (with maybe only a difference for men/women in sail surface area). And I don't mean just same spec, it's the same brand. The UCI could do the same, award an X year contract to a helmet manufacturer, and after the period passes open another tender for another manufacturer to potentially be the one providing helmets.
Bloemfontein got a mention🤣 Thanks Patrick
On the subject of a rider crashing, what about a mandatory assesment by the medical team with a slightly more thorogh check, if needed, and if found to be ok to continue, then the rider is brought back to the bunch via mechanical means? possibly by a specific vehicle which has facilities to easily carry more than one rider. Because if it wasn't his fault that he was forced to stop for the check, then he should be returned to his position. It would perhaps make the rider feel more amenable to be roadside checked without losing time for something that wasn't his fault. Would that work?
So sad about losing GCN+. Here in the states we will have to deal with Max for a lot pricier viewing. If you are happy with your streaming service, enjoy it. Next year the price will double or it will be gone.
accelerometers are really small and cheap now, you could embed one into a helmet without too much added weight or cost
What was the podcast Keane and Neville talked about doping you mentioned? Interested to hear that discussion
agreed that discovery is a big downgrade from gcn+ (and i have no interest in most of their content) but there's been 2 documentaries that i've enjoyed - one on the fdj women's team and one with anton palzer. i think quintana was blacklisted because he appealed to cas (court of arbitration for sport)
The BR add on to max is good and I’ve enjoyed it so far. Not sure why the coverage only started this past weekend.
Subs brings a whole new complexity to cycling, in the tour for example why wouldn’t a sprinter only show up to a sprint stages? The likes of wout would be punished for being a better rider because he needs to work for his team unlike other riders on smaller teams.
I do think riders should be able to retire from the stage but they must start the the following day . They could get the time cut +30 mins or something and could only be done 2-3 times per grand tour to prevent just resting
There's no ads on Discovery+, in the UK
Can you do these twice a week in busy weeks? Pretty please
We will have way more pods normally, from next week onwards.
@@LanterneRougeCyclingPodcast great. I need more Tratnik content injected into my veins
@@LanterneRougeCyclingPodcast like daily?
40:00 As far as I know in the doping case, the former manager of Euskaltel is in trouble not only because he leaked the documents but also because that same doctor treated more cyclist in other pro teams, including Euskaltel, and he modified the document to hide it.
Gary Neville should read The Secret Race, by Tyler Hamilton, re Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, ( Doc for at least 2 Spanish football teams, and possibly, the German national team )
Br Plus Max no replay availability in USA
And it's expensive and full of stuff we'll never watch
They do have replays available as of today
@@miche_amico Wish they'd come up with that before I re-upped by VPN subscription. :)
Michael Mørkøv had apuncture which required him to do a ton of work to get back to the peloton - that's the reason Astana shuffled their leadout.
The passport needs to be updated with improvements in Cox 2021 paper.
"Africa is pretty big the last time I checked..." OMG 🤦♂lol
I'm really against the idea of subs in the Grand Tours (or any other stage race, for that matter). I think it would really devalue the worth of a stage win if a sub won a stage. Or what if a domestique is subbed in and does an insane job and affects the top placings on GC?
If the grand tours are shortened, I"ll no longer be a world cycling fan. That's after 40 years of following the grand tours.
I hit a wall at 57kph coming down a hill and i don’t know if my helmet saved my left but I was knocked out for a little bit 😅
Patrick, why do grand tours need to be shortened?
To limit the need for doping maybe 🚴🚴♂🚴♂🚴🚴?
@@DR_1_1 That doesn't make sense. You do realise they also use dope in one day races?
@@HolgerDanske874 That's the world we are living in, most students get doped to pass their exams today, even in medicine! mostly amphetamines, like Ritalin, etc...
Life is a competition, and most can not compete without some "support"...
Else you are out of the race - and I'm talking from personal experience!
That EUROSPORT player thing is really weird !!
Big money will kill pro cycling, the real rationale for shortening the GT’s is to pack more races in the calendar and these will be races that come with mega rich sponsors who will then use their financial leverage to force more and more changes.
It's not about having more races in the calendar, but to have the riders race in more/different races in the current calendar. The UCI world tour is pretty much a fixed staple, perhaps within this calendar races can be "upgraded" or "downgraded" to gain more prestige, but it's unlikely that new races will be introduced.
@@patrickschulze3787 nah I disagree lots of new money waiting in the wings for time slots to be opened by measures like making GT’s two weeks instead of three.
@@epincion ok, it is a very good point, and at the end if there's more money, it's not bad. Problem is that it would lead to a certain death for grand tours: having an easier variant of something that once was considered to be the three hardest races on the calendar, would mean that many wouldn't care to watch it and many wouldn't bother winning anymore, meaning even less viewers, eventually having to cancel the whole race itself, which is kind of sad.
quintana involved in a doping scandal...colour me shocked
MIPs is a licensed standard, its like the gortex model. Ie diff companies can use it if they want but then have to meet the MIPs standard.
So it cant be “Stnadardised” as benji said. Its just a case of if companies want to use it, there are alternatives by other firms.
There can be a standardisation in "reduction of head movement" or whatever its called without specifying mips.
@@BenjiNaesenTV exactly. There can be standardisation and the existence of MIPs doesnt indicate there cant.
MIPs is totally different to any standardisation of helmet requirements.
Just remarking to your early remarks about the mine field of coverage of particular events, the loss of GCN+ has crushed my ability to view stuff in the U.S. Flobikes used to be an OK supplement to that as well as whatever Peacock was showing in terms of major cycling events. But now I am starting to feel like New Zealand as anyone who heard Dan Lloyd talk about what was coming up on GCN+, it was almost guaranteed that the end of that would be "Except in New Zealand". Oh, and over 80 percent of what Flobikes has said is on the schedule, isn't watchable in the U.S.
A little out of place for the entire subject of your broadcast, but I'm venting right now as I have lost my fix for cycle racing and cyclocross just ended.
Vingegaard his time trial in the tdf is the craziest thing i've ever seen someone perform on a bike... Beats even Cancellara his 4 bike changes in one race for no 'reason'.
(I'm too young to saw anquetil race, apparently he had a bigger Gap - a km- than vingegaard... The only one.. not even Indurain Came close)
is that vingegaard statement a reference to 'An Avalanche of Doping News' in the title?
37:50 correct me if I am wrong, I think its FSH + LH. I don't hear too much of people using it, people in the gym just use hGC. It should do the same. This is why I follow cycling, the drug choices there are interesting. People should be more open about what they use and what the PEDs do exactly. What was this reaction to the menotropin? I wish there was someone asking the cyclists about this stuff. Instead, everything is a taboo, and nobody is willing to talk.
52:57 football is by far the worst sport when it comes to doping control. Cycling (or any other sport) shouldn't be compare to it.
Regarding Lopez, It's unclear whether the use of LH was due to a preexisting issue (apparently a tendon inflammation) or the cause of a reaction. Either way, how do you suggest that someone asks cyclists (athletes in general) about this stuff? if you're using banned substances you will deny it because they're banned, if you're not, you will still deny it because you're not. Everything is taboo, because maybe doping is illegal, dodgy and dangerous. Unless you're caught, you obviously don't open your mouth. And even if you have been caught, it's not something that you just brush off. In most countries, you're not just a cheater, but a criminal too.
@@patrickschulze3787 @patrickschulze3787 If you are caught, or retired I see no problem. Plenty of people talk about steroids, both professional athletes and amateurs, all over the world, even though using steroids is a criminal offense in many countries. I hope the mindset in cycling changes because this is one of (if not the) most advanced sports when it comes to performance-enhancing. There is so much to learn from cyclists. For example, years ago there was a boom in the use of noble gases in cycling. While this wasn't really cutting edge, it was the cyclist who perfected their use, and they know more about it than anyone else. Things like that made me follow the sport.
And speaking of the legality of doping, I don't think anything that is so widely used should be a criminal offense. This is a widespread trick used by dictators. If a lot of people use something, and you ban it, you can't punish every one of those people, but you can use the ban to attack your political opponents. For example, you can look at Russia, where every politician speaks about the war, even though you still are not allowed to use the word "war". But only anti-Putin journalists are sent to prison because of this. The private military companies are also still illegal in Russia. The law was never changed. It's made so that Putin will have the option, if he wants, to imprison the next Prigozhin.
It would be insane if someone decided to enforce all the anti-doping laws. There would be millions of prisoners. So why have those laws in the first place.
I also don't agree that PEDs/illegal drugs are necessarily more dangerous. For example, most people who don't use PEDs, but want to lower their prolactin level, use high dosage of B6. This can lead to irreversible nerve damage - www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-alerts/health-supplements-containing-vitamin-b6-can-cause-peripheral-neuropathy . It would be much better and much, much safer to use prescription drugs like cabergoline or pramipexole. This, of course, is not allowed. You can't use prescription drugs without a prescription, right? So not everything that is illegal is worse for your health, and not everything that is "natural" is better.
But that's not the point. The point is even without any laws being changed, people like Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Quintana, etc. should speak more openly about the PEDs, they've used. Including the negative side effects. They don't do it, because the public would be outraged. This is what needs to change, the mindset of the public. Sure, these people did something against the rules. But they were caught (well Quintana was anyway, Armstrong wasn't caught in time), and were punished. Now let us hear their honest opinion - which PED helped them the most, which was useless, which had the worst side effects, and how they chose their cocktails.
This will never happen if the public is too dismissive. You shouldn't just say "Steroids are doggy" or "Steroids are bad for your health". The doping use among the general public will only rise if you feed them such uninformed opinions.
Cycling has a (well-deserved in my opinion) reputation as one of the most doped-up sports. Instead of shamefully trying to hide every scandal, just embrace the true nature of this sport. Plus, doping already happened. You can't change that. Now let us at least learn something from it.
@@patrickschulze3787 I've spent 30 minutes to write a whole page as a response, only for youtube to remove my comment. It happens... If you want, I can email you my thoughts or something. Although what's the point...
In Canada Flobikes ssems to have picked up a lot of those mall races from gcn/eurosport with their commentators. Normally I would describe flobikes as scum of the earth, but they so far have been reasonable this season.
It's too bad that's not the case for the US. The only races available recently have been cross races.
Any idea how people in Canada are going to watch any of the Italian races?
Flo
Why do you think grand tours need to be shortened?
Isn't Flobikes available in Australia for smaller races?
In some sense prosecuting doctors makes sense as they are prescribing controlled substances under false pretense. That has ramifications way beyond cycling - opioid epidemic exhibit one.
exactly, although I think they weren't undermining the gravity of doping and prescription of banned substances, but more so that sometimes it appears that the athlete who has been making use of doping, almost "gets away" with it
Really appreciate you going into the doping situation in cycling. Other sports mostly ignore it whereas cycling has done well facing up to the problems over the past decade or so. Far from perfect but sunlight is an excellent disinfectant.
Thanks guys ! Would be nice to index the race recaps. I mean it's nice to cover the womens race, but some people like me just don't care (sometimes I check the monuments if Kopecky is a favourite, if I really have nothing to do) and want to skip them in one click ;)
Take a shot each time Benji says “sus” at 47:42
Dear Algorithm, please ignore benji's swearing 😇
Imagine if Sepp Kuss was forced to sit in a team car for 6 hours a day - essentially detraining and then substituted in for the last week in the mountains. I know how his legs would feel 😂
Tolhok got popped in Chiang Mai, Thailand. From the rumours I heard living in CM last year, a lot of weekend warriors based there use anabolics. Tolhok was doing a lot of appearances at fun races. Is it possible he could have just drank out of someones finishing bidon? I find it hard to believe he would use that type of steroid as a PED.
The Tolhoek defense is that Thailand has a big doping problem... of pigs. So contaminated pork, like Contador. Apparently it is not completely pulled out of thin air; there have been some studies on tourists who tested positive after a holiday. But I also guess the doping rules say it is the rider's own responsibility to avoid contaminated food. That's what I would put in.
@@MartijnterHaarThey also wouldn't have sent testers to Chiang Mai unless there was a tipoff. It's a lot of money to come home empty handed.
Totally unrelated, but laundry basket in the background. Clean or dirty?
I hate the idea of substitute riders. When Remco blew up on stage 13 of La Vuelta last year, from that point forward it felt like he was just stage sniping. He would go super hard one day and win a stage then take the next 2-3 stages off to rest. Then gun for another stage win. I think if you had subs you would see more cases of fringe GC hopefuls stage sniping and that would make stage wins feel more hollow.
Not only should subs not be allowed in cycling, but stage wins, places and points should vanish if a rider DNFs. Sprinting is often a ridiculous sideshow in tours.
No comment on Del toro's attempt to chase remco? C'mon