I kinda wanted to see the WoD execute Dispatch coming back instead of just Ambush procs, it was such a satisfying ability to use. I was also hoping for a talent that allows Dispatch/Ambush to cleave, it could open up a more ST+cleave focused build with Caustic Spatter and possibly even Vicious Venoms where you're mostly doing dmg to priority targets and trying to snipe low hp mobs for the free cleave, I love the theme of that gameplay, and you're still doing some aoe with bleed&poison dots
I don't think any class should have all their AOE while keeping 95% of their single target because that defeats the whole purpose of a talent tree. I'd rather they address the specs with no downside, because if we go down this road of asking for all our damage in every scenario then every spec that has give/take in their talent tree will feel bad and eventually see change, then the talent tree will just become meaningless over time. Of course, they should still tune the trees that are ultra restrictive (like 10.0 arms) but it's just boring to have everything always in a talent tree system. Real choice is fun and the entire point of the tree Also, you absolutely do not need to play meta dps for anything below top 100 keys. It'd be nice if assassination had no downside (for assassination players) but these changes to the specs damage profile will at least makes the spec competitive in aoe where it was not before. A class doesn't have to be part of the exodia comp before you are allowed to start playing it lol
I like the fact that so many talents change between your aoe and single target spec, otherwise what are all those talent nodes for? Most would just go unused throughout the expansion and that never feels good
While a small thing in the grand scheme of things, I dont understand why Assassination´s enrage dispel has to be a DPS cooldown, while that is not the case for the other two specs. Make poisoned Knife dispel poisons or something instead. Or make Shiv not go on CD if used on an enraged target. Thanks for the video. Sad that Sin will once again be F-tier in m+ :(
Hiya! Really enjoyed the video, but I do want to add a quick caveat(s) to your ideas at the end which I think is important to know about. Just a quick "who is this guy with the moby dick in the comments", I am the assassination guide writer for wowhead and method, and the theorycrafter in general. I think the idea with combining a lot of the points is technically fine, but very very difficult to execute on, because the core of assassination requires that our "aoe" is also our single target. Realisitically, garrote talents aren't just aoe talents, nor are shiv talents aoe talents. Arterial has single target value, as does scent of bleed, sudden demise, exsanguinate. Theres a grey area in the talent design in that regard. I think there's a distinction to be made between the AoE talents that you need, like crimson tempest, and the AoE talents that are better, but not fully AoE. Something like passive exsanguinate or sudden demise are great examples of it. You might not want to take them in single target, because there are better options, but their value still exists. Passive exsanguinate can put up numbers in single target, and 10% bleed damage on demise is also valuable. Is it as valuable as blindside, vicious venoms? No, clearly not, but they do exist on a spectrum. You were a bit quick to shove all of those talents together and just "well you need to retune", but how exactly should that happen? Taking the garrote combination as an example, shrouded, improved, and carnage. Well now you have a talent that's giving extra combo points, 20% passive garrote damage, 50% from stealth, and it makes garrote cleave. Same deal with shiv, you're combining one extra charge (which has dps value inherently), with 100% shiv damage, 200% shiv damage, making the buff apply to multiple target, and increase bleed damage. Would the point efficiency be fixed? Yes, definitely. But you're also going to have to dilute those new giga talents into a much more watered down version to facilitate that, and you're essentially going to end up deleting talents entirely, rather than combine them, and then you would need to make new talent points in order to add choices back or else you just take everything again. In your sub example, you actually exactly have this issue (also I'm pretty sure you would want more than just those two points, but we'll see how that ends up in a couple months). You take 2 points away, add it back into the left side. What are you left with? A graveyard of unwanted and un-taken talents. I don't really think that's the grand solution to the issue either honestly. You want to be able to take talents and have them be valuable and worthwhile, instead of taking 28 points of mandatory power, and swapping the last 2 points around. From a gameplay perspective that's just as important as being able to balance your AoE with your Single target in my opinion. Also at 28:05, you mentioned that "blizzard has shied away from this, but caustic spatter could proc off of envenom". It does, already. It also procs off of kingsbane. Amp poison envenoms deal more damage as well. All of those interactions already work in the game In general though, I agree that assassination has an upwards climb to m+ meta. I want to leave you with maybe an idea to try out that maybe strikes your balance a bit better. www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/talent-calc/rogue/assassination/DAAAMVVVVUCYEBgoVBA With this build, you're achieving the 3-4 talents you want to move (crimson tempest, thrown precision, caustic spatter, arterial precision). You're getting the AoE, and don't sleep on any of it. Thrown precision with a 2 energy per crit dashing scoundrel is quite good. Poison bomb got a huge aoe range increase that makes it really good as well. I think you'll find that trying to force the insane bleed damage aoe isn't quite there right now (I want to say they're looking into it), but a poison based m+ build might be more of your style. Great content though, keep it up, loving the hype around assassination :)
Heyo - recognise the name from discord, if you ever want to have a chat would love to bash heads together and put some feedback into blizzard. Discord would be ideal ❤️ Think you've misunderstood a few points The talents I mention in the rework do clearly have some ST value, but my point isn't that they do no ST, it's that you lose a lot when you have to swap 10 talent points in total. And I think that's clear, from my testing my ST dropped through the floor I mention they could combine or make points baseline. I know making giga talent points or making some points baseline would make the spec overpowered and I say that it would there would obviously need to be lots of balancing which I think is fair - we would need to see a lot of work from this point forwards, so I don't think my suggestions are going to get implemented. But it's the sort of thing we need to see to get the spec working in m+ at a high level. On caustic spatter, I meant that it should proc the debuff, i.e. I don't have to press mutilate in AoE. But this change, and say either or poison bomb or spatter proccing amp poison, would be a big change in direction from blizzard with assa. Which I don't think they want to do. As you wouldn't play around bleeds really. I have tried the poison AoE build/cleave build - but it needs a lot of help and tuning if it is to work - and it would mean all of the "AoE" side of the tree is useless if they do tune it, which feels wrong as that has been the focus of the rework from my impression. It could also be because I'm comparing the AoE damage to outlaw/enhance which are pumping right now, but caustic would say needed to go up to 40 or 45% for example which I doubt blizz want to do. Just want to reiterate that its awesome to hear from you and RUclips comments are hard to communicate through, so just chuck me a discord friend request if you want to curate some feedback!
Indescriminate carnage needs to apply to the next two garrotes and ruptures after stealth and apply to two nearby targets. Effectively giving you 6 each after every single stealth. That would be a huge quality of life change and easy reaaply with vanish and shadow dance.
caustic spatter is the same path that they took with shadow priest and in some respect fire mage until they buffed flame patch again. Blow up one target and splash. What you are describing is a rogue version of shadow priest. I can't see them doing a rework without addressing some of the core issues of the spec, so i wouldn't expect to be F-tier again. I personally would be happy with b tier at least then you can play well and still achieve decent rating.
ultimately - keep these changes, perhaps tweak some, but make Crimson Tempest, Kingsbane, and Deathmark BASELINE. only then does sin rogue stand a chance vs the brother specs in relevant M+ keys. another idea would be bring back Vendetta, with an AoE component. approaching this from a PVE pov. sin rogue was cracked in Legion which was last I mained it, swapped to sub last patch & has been my main since! appreciate the info you’ve collected mate, great rogue vids!!
Im hoping we'll have Tyrannical, Fortified and pure single target builds to choose from. Tyran build would be mostly ST damage with some cleave and Forti build would be full AoE sacrificing all single target (Bosses are pretty much a gimmie on Fortified weeks anyway...).
I don't think you can keep 95% of your ST while still doing THAT much MT dmg. But maybe think about the whole thing differently. What if you take all the passive AOE talents that are just made on the side + go so far down the tree until you get to Poison Bomb, then you have what you want? you can knock down a target and the rest will be melted with your passive MT dmg and on top of that you can do Crimson Tempest.
When you were discussing not using envenom in aoe much the 4pc needs dmg increased on it since I believe with aoe they’re wanting us to use more envenoms moving crimson tempest to a dot.
Crimson tempest is definitely a dot maintain now and your primary spender is envenom in all situations. The 4pc is woefully under tuned and the old 2pc is probably stronger.
Depends on how good it is, right now I think we would be spreading ruptures (say there is 8 targets, most globals will be for rupture spread for example), if the tier set is good though then we would for sure
Does passive exsanguinate essentially reduce your maximum energy by 150 since you have to remain above the threshold? I feel like I’d much rather like the active or even a toggle
It annoys me that we have to take Improved Ambush. This basically does nothing for us, right? Like the general consensus is that it's still better to mutilate while in stealth, because it does more damage than ambush? Or has this been changed?
Ambzsh is slightly more damage but less combo points. Without the proc making it free Ambush is just less DPS per Energy on Basis of it granting less resource.
The current IC + ironwire combo is so powerful in M+ and somehow we are still the least played spec in the game. Our AoE wasn't even that bad it's just the fact you need to sacrifice so many ST talents to be able to play it. Sounds like our ST is still going to be ass and now we lose IC too... umm thanks for spatter I guess?
I hope they will have caustic spatter spread kingsbane and Envenom dmg. That would be the easiest way to get an "performing" m+ build. On live ive pugged with assa to KSH and KSM. But Tyrannical keys were a horror. I lose 30k dps compared to single T. Whlie my fire mage loses like 6k dps only
I get your criticism but at the same time blizzard can't design all the dps specs with the exact damage pattern either otherwise people will get bored very fast.
Doesn't need to be the same damage pattern, it can be a dot spreading class (which is very different to sub and outlaw for example) whilst still being able to do ST and AoE, I think both can be achieved
Ye I agree with this, there is a lot of room for improvement with assa spells and sounds, I like assa but fan then hammer pistol shots, between the eyes, roll the bones, secret technique and blackpowder all sound and look much better when you press them imo
i dont like the rogue rework. i thaught they may change it so the talent tree is split into two side with one bleed and one poison path. its so annoying we still cant decide and have to still take the best talents resulting in having a bit bleed and a bit poison... i want to be a poison rogue splashing my poison in aoe and not spreading my bleeds. wtf is this
i have ksm on assa the past 4-5 seasons, saying it hasnt been 'functional' is a stretch. yeah sub and outlaw have been better, but if your not trying to push 20+ assasa has been fully viable imo.
You can achieve KSM with any spec. That doesn't mean it doesn't trail behind most other specs. Galea made it very clear why a spec that sacrifices 20%+ single target dmg to achieve its AOE potential will never be meta.
@@Sly_404I typically do competitive single target(to other specs) on assassin in the full m+ build. If anything this rework has you sacrifice more single target than prior. To me assassin was simply underrated before. If anything this rework has shown how many people simply didn't play the spec but judged it the same.
@@vearheart42a typical m+ assa build is ~20% lower than ST and assa was already far from top ST spec, most classes don't need to sacrifice so much of their ST to gain good aoe, and if you are keeping up on bosses in m+ while running aoe builds it means you have shitty players in your party As for the rework, while numbers are not final of course there are some aoe builds that are literally 2-3 points different from ST build which is huge improvement
I kinda wanted to see the WoD execute Dispatch coming back instead of just Ambush procs, it was such a satisfying ability to use. I was also hoping for a talent that allows Dispatch/Ambush to cleave, it could open up a more ST+cleave focused build with Caustic Spatter and possibly even Vicious Venoms where you're mostly doing dmg to priority targets and trying to snipe low hp mobs for the free cleave, I love the theme of that gameplay, and you're still doing some aoe with bleed&poison dots
I don't think any class should have all their AOE while keeping 95% of their single target because that defeats the whole purpose of a talent tree. I'd rather they address the specs with no downside, because if we go down this road of asking for all our damage in every scenario then every spec that has give/take in their talent tree will feel bad and eventually see change, then the talent tree will just become meaningless over time. Of course, they should still tune the trees that are ultra restrictive (like 10.0 arms) but it's just boring to have everything always in a talent tree system. Real choice is fun and the entire point of the tree
Also, you absolutely do not need to play meta dps for anything below top 100 keys. It'd be nice if assassination had no downside (for assassination players) but these changes to the specs damage profile will at least makes the spec competitive in aoe where it was not before. A class doesn't have to be part of the exodia comp before you are allowed to start playing it lol
I like the fact that so many talents change between your aoe and single target spec, otherwise what are all those talent nodes for? Most would just go unused throughout the expansion and that never feels good
While a small thing in the grand scheme of things, I dont understand why Assassination´s enrage dispel has to be a DPS cooldown, while that is not the case for the other two specs. Make poisoned Knife dispel poisons or something instead. Or make Shiv not go on CD if used on an enraged target.
Thanks for the video. Sad that Sin will once again be F-tier in m+ :(
Very true, does feel strange that you lose a piece of utility with it, changing it to poison knife sounds like a good change
Hiya! Really enjoyed the video, but I do want to add a quick caveat(s) to your ideas at the end which I think is important to know about. Just a quick "who is this guy with the moby dick in the comments", I am the assassination guide writer for wowhead and method, and the theorycrafter in general.
I think the idea with combining a lot of the points is technically fine, but very very difficult to execute on, because the core of assassination requires that our "aoe" is also our single target. Realisitically, garrote talents aren't just aoe talents, nor are shiv talents aoe talents. Arterial has single target value, as does scent of bleed, sudden demise, exsanguinate. Theres a grey area in the talent design in that regard. I think there's a distinction to be made between the AoE talents that you need, like crimson tempest, and the AoE talents that are better, but not fully AoE. Something like passive exsanguinate or sudden demise are great examples of it. You might not want to take them in single target, because there are better options, but their value still exists. Passive exsanguinate can put up numbers in single target, and 10% bleed damage on demise is also valuable. Is it as valuable as blindside, vicious venoms? No, clearly not, but they do exist on a spectrum.
You were a bit quick to shove all of those talents together and just "well you need to retune", but how exactly should that happen? Taking the garrote combination as an example, shrouded, improved, and carnage. Well now you have a talent that's giving extra combo points, 20% passive garrote damage, 50% from stealth, and it makes garrote cleave. Same deal with shiv, you're combining one extra charge (which has dps value inherently), with 100% shiv damage, 200% shiv damage, making the buff apply to multiple target, and increase bleed damage. Would the point efficiency be fixed? Yes, definitely. But you're also going to have to dilute those new giga talents into a much more watered down version to facilitate that, and you're essentially going to end up deleting talents entirely, rather than combine them, and then you would need to make new talent points in order to add choices back or else you just take everything again. In your sub example, you actually exactly have this issue (also I'm pretty sure you would want more than just those two points, but we'll see how that ends up in a couple months). You take 2 points away, add it back into the left side. What are you left with? A graveyard of unwanted and un-taken talents. I don't really think that's the grand solution to the issue either honestly. You want to be able to take talents and have them be valuable and worthwhile, instead of taking 28 points of mandatory power, and swapping the last 2 points around. From a gameplay perspective that's just as important as being able to balance your AoE with your Single target in my opinion.
Also at 28:05, you mentioned that "blizzard has shied away from this, but caustic spatter could proc off of envenom". It does, already. It also procs off of kingsbane. Amp poison envenoms deal more damage as well. All of those interactions already work in the game
In general though, I agree that assassination has an upwards climb to m+ meta. I want to leave you with maybe an idea to try out that maybe strikes your balance a bit better.
www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/talent-calc/rogue/assassination/DAAAMVVVVUCYEBgoVBA
With this build, you're achieving the 3-4 talents you want to move (crimson tempest, thrown precision, caustic spatter, arterial precision). You're getting the AoE, and don't sleep on any of it. Thrown precision with a 2 energy per crit dashing scoundrel is quite good. Poison bomb got a huge aoe range increase that makes it really good as well. I think you'll find that trying to force the insane bleed damage aoe isn't quite there right now (I want to say they're looking into it), but a poison based m+ build might be more of your style.
Great content though, keep it up, loving the hype around assassination :)
Heyo - recognise the name from discord, if you ever want to have a chat would love to bash heads together and put some feedback into blizzard. Discord would be ideal ❤️
Think you've misunderstood a few points
The talents I mention in the rework do clearly have some ST value, but my point isn't that they do no ST, it's that you lose a lot when you have to swap 10 talent points in total. And I think that's clear, from my testing my ST dropped through the floor
I mention they could combine or make points baseline. I know making giga talent points or making some points baseline would make the spec overpowered and I say that it would there would obviously need to be lots of balancing which I think is fair - we would need to see a lot of work from this point forwards, so I don't think my suggestions are going to get implemented. But it's the sort of thing we need to see to get the spec working in m+ at a high level.
On caustic spatter, I meant that it should proc the debuff, i.e. I don't have to press mutilate in AoE. But this change, and say either or poison bomb or spatter proccing amp poison, would be a big change in direction from blizzard with assa. Which I don't think they want to do. As you wouldn't play around bleeds really.
I have tried the poison AoE build/cleave build - but it needs a lot of help and tuning if it is to work - and it would mean all of the "AoE" side of the tree is useless if they do tune it, which feels wrong as that has been the focus of the rework from my impression. It could also be because I'm comparing the AoE damage to outlaw/enhance which are pumping right now, but caustic would say needed to go up to 40 or 45% for example which I doubt blizz want to do.
Just want to reiterate that its awesome to hear from you and RUclips comments are hard to communicate through, so just chuck me a discord friend request if you want to curate some feedback!
Indescriminate carnage needs to apply to the next two garrotes and ruptures after stealth and apply to two nearby targets. Effectively giving you 6 each after every single stealth. That would be a huge quality of life change and easy reaaply with vanish and shadow dance.
yep that would be way better - other option would be let subterfuge stack (so we can 6 globals to spread, or 3 garrotes and 3 ruptures)
I believe they said they are going to make it apply twice with no conditions
@@aniranth7289 I went and checked and I didn't see anything that said that.
@vearheart42 you are right but they did say they are relooking at it
caustic spatter is the same path that they took with shadow priest and in some respect fire mage until they buffed flame patch again. Blow up one target and splash. What you are describing is a rogue version of shadow priest. I can't see them doing a rework without addressing some of the core issues of the spec, so i wouldn't expect to be F-tier again. I personally would be happy with b tier at least then you can play well and still achieve decent rating.
I'm looking forward for your Plater profile for Season 3!
Was waiting for Assa! Hope it's amazing. :D
ultimately - keep these changes, perhaps tweak some, but make Crimson Tempest, Kingsbane, and Deathmark BASELINE. only then does sin rogue stand a chance vs the brother specs in relevant M+ keys.
another idea would be bring back Vendetta, with an AoE component.
approaching this from a PVE pov.
sin rogue was cracked in Legion which was last I mained it, swapped to sub last patch & has been my main since!
appreciate the info you’ve collected mate, great rogue vids!!
Just from the way they reworked it I think they are designing it to not be good in M+ in general, but be only a spec you'll run in raid.
Im hoping we'll have Tyrannical, Fortified and pure single target builds to choose from. Tyran build would be mostly ST damage with some cleave and Forti build would be full AoE sacrificing all single target (Bosses are pretty much a gimmie on Fortified weeks anyway...).
on high keys even on forti bosses are tough
I don't think you can keep 95% of your ST while still doing THAT much MT dmg.
But maybe think about the whole thing differently. What if you take all the passive AOE talents that are just made on the side + go so far down the tree until you get to Poison Bomb, then you have what you want? you can knock down a target and the rest will be melted with your passive MT dmg and on top of that you can do Crimson Tempest.
When you were discussing not using envenom in aoe much the 4pc needs dmg increased on it since I believe with aoe they’re wanting us to use more envenoms moving crimson tempest to a dot.
Crimson tempest is definitely a dot maintain now and your primary spender is envenom in all situations. The 4pc is woefully under tuned and the old 2pc is probably stronger.
Depends on how good it is, right now I think we would be spreading ruptures (say there is 8 targets, most globals will be for rupture spread for example), if the tier set is good though then we would for sure
Does passive exsanguinate essentially reduce your maximum energy by 150 since you have to remain above the threshold? I feel like I’d much rather like the active or even a toggle
Not really, its really easy to stay over 150 energy, when you hit CD's you ignore it and just blast.
I’d love to see crimson tempest gone and in its place poison bomb as active ability , similar as black powder works for sub but with dot aspect
great video, also with this talent layout its gonna be impossible to take bone spike sadly. maybe im the only one but i rly like it.
agreed, its one of the coolest abilities in the game just based on its concept, its a shame its not tuned any better, would also love to play it
It’s still useful depending on your playstyle. If you’re min-maxing, there’s always going to be unviable talents.
It annoys me that we have to take Improved Ambush. This basically does nothing for us, right? Like the general consensus is that it's still better to mutilate while in stealth, because it does more damage than ambush? Or has this been changed?
Ambzsh is slightly more damage but less combo points. Without the proc making it free Ambush is just less DPS per Energy on Basis of it granting less resource.
@@off-meta9962 So improved ambush is still useless? Like why put it in the tree knowing we won't use it?
The current IC + ironwire combo is so powerful in M+ and somehow we are still the least played spec in the game. Our AoE wasn't even that bad it's just the fact you need to sacrifice so many ST talents to be able to play it. Sounds like our ST is still going to be ass and now we lose IC too... umm thanks for spatter I guess?
I hope they will have caustic spatter spread kingsbane and Envenom dmg.
That would be the easiest way to get an "performing" m+ build.
On live ive pugged with assa to KSH and KSM. But Tyrannical keys were a horror. I lose 30k dps compared to single T.
Whlie my fire mage loses like 6k dps only
Spatter already deals damage bases on poison damage
where talent trees?
I get your criticism but at the same time blizzard can't design all the dps specs with the exact damage pattern either otherwise people will get bored very fast.
Doesn't need to be the same damage pattern, it can be a dot spreading class (which is very different to sub and outlaw for example) whilst still being able to do ST and AoE, I think both can be achieved
you use envenom to proc poison bomb in aoe so the 4 set is not useless but its not good either
you will hardly keep your energy above 150 the passive exang needs to be lowered back to 100 energy.
Forgot your spatter in the aoe
Alright lets get my rogue to max level.
I remember your video about fun spec/class, and this spec is the less visualy fun of rogues, only a sad venom pool who look like sewage.
Ye I agree with this, there is a lot of room for improvement with assa spells and sounds, I like assa but fan then hammer pistol shots, between the eyes, roll the bones, secret technique and blackpowder all sound and look much better when you press them imo
yep!@@galeaggtv
thanks so much.
i hate slice/dice so much, it´s the only reason i dont play rogue
true, maintenance buffs are bad for sure
i dont like the rogue rework. i thaught they may change it so the talent tree is split into two side with one bleed and one poison path. its so annoying we still cant decide and have to still take the best talents resulting in having a bit bleed and a bit poison... i want to be a poison rogue splashing my poison in aoe and not spreading my bleeds. wtf is this
i have ksm on assa the past 4-5 seasons, saying it hasnt been 'functional' is a stretch. yeah sub and outlaw have been better, but if your not trying to push 20+ assasa has been fully viable imo.
You can achieve KSM with any spec. That doesn't mean it doesn't trail behind most other specs.
Galea made it very clear why a spec that sacrifices 20%+ single target dmg to achieve its AOE potential will never be meta.
@@Sly_404I typically do competitive single target(to other specs) on assassin in the full m+ build. If anything this rework has you sacrifice more single target than prior.
To me assassin was simply underrated before. If anything this rework has shown how many people simply didn't play the spec but judged it the same.
@@mhq9278even better having adds to aoe in raid improves your single T. Assa can actually funnle crazy hard.
@@off-meta9962on live??
@@vearheart42a typical m+ assa build is ~20% lower than ST and assa was already far from top ST spec, most classes don't need to sacrifice so much of their ST to gain good aoe, and if you are keeping up on bosses in m+ while running aoe builds it means you have shitty players in your party
As for the rework, while numbers are not final of course there are some aoe builds that are literally 2-3 points different from ST build which is huge improvement
Sudden demise is NOT a good talent for high key runs.. do NOT TAKE THE TALENT
N VENOM not N E VENOM