All great points, thanks for the vid. A few thoughts from me: I lurk a vegan cat facebook group. This group got Professor Knight to give a webinar. He reiterated, multiple times, that no one should try to make their own cat food. But the members kept asking how they could. He was not pleased, it was very cringe... Anyway, my concern is with availability. I would switch in a heartbeat if a brand like purina offered it. This same facebook group, you see tons of people struggling to keep a regular supply, and having to make substitutions. These small suppliers can't ensure consistency or availability. Unfortunately, our rescue is a neutered-as-an-adult male and has already had surgery for a UTI. So I'm very hesitant to switch (yes I'm morally conflicted). Thanks again, great vid!
Consult people that are knowledgeable. I think from an ethical standpoint if the cat needs to eat meat or the supply of vegan options can't meet their need, then the right thing to do is feed them meat. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe a carnivore pet is not for you. Why do people insist on making their own cat food? People are bonkers.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. lol. Thanks for the laughs. I disagree with Swayze on multiple things and I myself eat a mostly raw/fruit-based diet, but giving cooked food to kids is not "abuse".
@@MdoubleHBxxx. I've tried to train my cats into hunting ants inside the house. Our oldest didn't understand the job at all, instead he sniffed the ant and then sat on it. 100% hunter. He is best friends with our rabbits, sometimes he gets scared when they move too fast. Then he just runs away and starts to make this sad yodeling sound. His favorite food is potato chips, he refuses to eat anything that isn't crunchy. My husband tried to feed him meat for years, but he isn't interested in it at all. He is 100% designed to be killing.
@jonahwhale9047 --- _The vegan movement has been against the use of pesticides since before their use was even widespread_ --- Well, no vegans mention it and no vegans pratice it. Go see Vegan Grains for example, he earns a lot of money per month shaking his ass and selling his wife on Onlyfans. What does he do with this money ? He buy toys, bikes, donuts but does not try to buy pesticides-free food. So as a vegan cultist, you made a rookie mistake thinking I was a rookie. To grow your vegetables you need to kill animals. And that's the contradiction, vegans hate. Because it shows how hypocritical they are.
You are not operating in the vegan ethic if you are going to be predatory on your cat's behalf, especially when there is some scientific evidence to show plant based diets are safe for them. Even if the evidence isn't 100% proof, and your cat's health would be less than optimal on plants, still not justifiable to anyone truly in favor of the vegan morale. Even if it were conclusive that plant based was quite unhealthy for cats, still not justifiable to kill other animals for them. Stop catering to your cats predatory lusts, ye weird carnivore enabling cat worshippers, and try actually being vegan.
Also, you have to take into acount the age of the cats. Most "vegan" cats were younger, compared to the meat eaters. Without even getting into food, you would expect higher reports of vet visits, and clinical problems in older cats.
The big thing that concerns me about the data in that study is that they show no error bars. So they aren't even showing how variable the data is between the groups! I'm honestly surprised that paper with that data was published in the journal that published it. Even if they had taken the more obvious conclusion that just looking at the means suggest, that there isn't a difference and that vegan diets work for cats too, the variability is important to know. That said, the numbers of cats on the vegan diet side likely isn't enough to make a strong conclusion either way.
I don't think I have the abilities or capacity to determine whether keeping cats on a vegan diet is a good idea. For me - as long as Hannah Shaw - (AKA The Kitten Lady) who's a massive advocate for veganism (has been vegan for like 10+ years) and who knows more about cat welfare than anyone else I know - keeps feeding cats meat, I'm going to trust her that it's the way to go. Meanwhile we should focus on trap-neuter-return programs to help lower the cat population.
I think she's more of an anti-vegan than vegan, especially with her reach, spreading misinformation and encouraging people to get cats and feed them other tortured animals.
@@nullethosechoes What misinformation exactly? The best thing to do for cats (and the animals they're being fed) is limiting their population which is best done through the before mentioned TNR programs which she supports and works on herself.
@@JudyCZ from what I've seen from her channel it is all about cats, how cute they are, how it's fun to have them, and so on. This encourages people to get more cats. She even has a video where she used the only source available that clumpsily said cats cannot be vegan (ASPCA) and used those words herself. There was no mention of it being possiblle, no mention of other animals being fed to cats, no nuance. It was propaganda which would have made the meat industry proud.
This seems very illogical to me. Exploiting and killing multiple animals for the sake of 1's "health"? I think the most moral action with cats is feed them plant based (making it healthy as possible), and deal with the consequences (which might be quite good!)
I always wonder why no one ever factors the digestive tract in in this topic. Carnivores have a shorter digestive tract than herbivores and omnivores because no relevant digestion for energy supply happens in their hindgut. So, why should they eat a plant based diet??? On the other hand herbivores can't digest flesh efficiently because of their longer hindgut and it would start to rot inside the hindgut. Is it because our pets are fed processed food?
As what ive seen, vegan feeds are usually made with this kept in mind like using seitan/tofu/tvp etc instead of whole foods. which is kind of diff than carnist pet food that often contain rice as fillers
@@dundundun7215cats are obligate carnivores. You will kill your cat giving it a vegan diet no matter what supplements you give it. Literal animals abuse
The only problem with vegan diet for cats is hydration. There is only dry food available, at least in my area and since cats are reluctant to drink water, you have to soak the dry food REAL WELL, otherwise expect urinary issues.
That isn’t the only problem, where is your cat getting Taurine, necessary nutrients, and acids from? You may not see the difference today, but that isn’t safe for your cat.
I was hoping you would comment on this! I feel like the evidence isn't there yet, the flaws in the study are too big. The omission of duration is very significant and quite strange. But I do hope this opens the door to more research that will offer a firmer foundation for any conclusion and change the perception that feeding cats anything other than meat is immediately animal abuse. If a vegan cat food is shown to be safe in the long run I will certainly try it. My cat is a super picky eater so I don't know that she would even eat it, but I would certainly try to introduce it. She eats different feeds made from byproducts right now.
You touched on one of my concerns. My cats will only eat pate texture and only in seafood flavor. I haven't found anything like that in vegan versions. Plus, they're 15 and 17, one with hyperthyroid and only a few teeth left, so it's hard to want to experiment with their diets at this stage.
@@legohandslizmy cat is a 13yo ex street urchin who was caught at around 9. He is FIV positive and had to have his top teeth removed before I adopted him (I wasn't vegan yet). Yesterday he had to have his power teeth removed as well after 3 years with me and he has very similar taste in catfood yours does. I don't think I'd risk it because the risks of him getting less healthy are already so much higher,he needs a kidney friendly diet as it is, I don't know how to combine all of his needs and add vegan to that.
@@marlyd Yes, I totally understand. I think if I adopted again in the future, I'd try a vegan cat food to see if they'd eat it and did well on it, but for senior cats with existing health issues, it's not a black and white question. Do you follow Kitten Lady? She's vegan and still gives all of her fosters and her own cats regular cat food. Just one resource I consider a good reference for what's best for cats.
This is a topic I have never been able to make my mind up about, I’d love to read some studies but I don’t know that my knowledge is good enough to assess what studies are good or not, I think statistics like you described in this video go over my head. It’s nice to hear that vegan diets may not be bad for cats but with all the differing opinions out there it’s just incredibly difficult to not feel like no matter what decision I make as a cat guardian that decision is potentially wrong in some way. My other personal dilemma is two of my cats have health issues, one has an over active thyroid and the other has suspected feline hyperesthesia. I feel like there’s next to no chance of me finding a vet in my city that would know enough about vegan cat food and studies done on it and whether it’s ok for cats with over active thyroids, but yet I can’t guarantee a vegan diet would be bad for her either. It’s definitely not something I’m against people trying if they are sensible people that can and will monitor their cats health. I think you have to also consider that some people may be afraid of being accused of neglect if they put cats on a vegan diet and I have seen a tech post that the vet she works with would report a cat guardian if they put their cat on a vegan diet. So there are some really challenging concerns.
Regarding the knowledge part on reading studies: I am an epidemiologist by training and I still sometimes have problems with interpreting studies outside my specific field (cancer prevention). Designing a study can be very complex and there are soooo many possibilities to make mistakes. So if you are going to read some studies on your own, I would at least advice you to get some knowledge on following three things: Study designs, statistical significance and most importantly sources of bias and confounding. Hope that helps :)
@@Sarinable1 that sounds like good advice. I find if a study does not have bias and is well done at the very least as a non expert you can often get the main point in the conclusion, so often I just skip to that section but the things you mention would help very much. It’s ironic that mention cancer, I spent a lot time in the last year trying to counter cancer treatment misinformation. I had a diagnosis of breast cancer, which has been treated, but because I searched some pathology information on the web my Facebook started putting cancer pages in my feed. I made the mistake of looking at comments section, and was angry to see the amount of pseudoscience recommended by others. So because I despise misinformation and especially despise misinformation that could kill people I started trying to counter these comments. This was made easier by the fact that there are credible groups that have made summaries of what is and isn’t legitimate treatments. I think this is where the difference is with trying to find the correct info on vegan diets for cats, it’s such a new area of study that there aren’t non biased pages summarizing the info for general people.
I am glad to at least see the attitudes about this topic softening. A year ago, the comment section under a video with this topic, would be filled with a lot of hot headed bigotry, accusing people feeding cats plant based food of animal abuse. Which is nonsense, as in most cases a vegan cat owner would have adopted a cat in need, so it is better off being fed a somewhat nutritionally inadequate diet than being killed in a shelter or left wandering the streets. And overall it does less harm to feed a cat plant based food even if the cat's health suffers somewhat, vs taking the lives of multiple other animals to feed the 1 cat. It was frustrating to no end how arrogant, illogical and vile people were being!
@@vgnwlfGet a bloodclat rabbit and stop forcing carnivores to live under your standard, if you leave a cat outside it’s not going to graze grass or look for a salad, it will go for small birds and mammals. If your morals are so far against the food manufacturing process (which is fine and suitable), find an ethical brand, find a bloodclat rabbit like I said, or all around just don’t get a pet and force your mental illness on it.
Honestly if you want vegan pets, get rabbits, or rats. Can cats be vegan? maybe, but we currently don't really know if it's healthy or not. Ans personally I wouldnt count cats that can hunt outside as vegan, my old cat got plenty of food but still are like half the mice she brought home.😮
At this point I think the cost is the only issue. The companies can fortify their cat food, which should help them be healthy, and meet their dietary requirements. I just would rather pay maybe .25 of what they cost online and be able to pick it up at my local store.
@ That doesnt really apply here though. I didn't say that vegan catfood has to be perfect before we can safely feed it to our cats. We need to know whether a vegan diet is safe and healthy (e.g. at least as healthy as a decent meatbased catfood), especially longterm.
Some people are in a situation where they rescued their cat off the street & gave them a happy home instead of life in a shelter, but it just so happens that they are so broke they can only afford basic cat food in the store, and “beans & rice” for themselves. Let’s remember that in the very definition of veganism it is stated “…as far as is possible and practicable…” We don’t need a few perfect vegans. We need an entire society just doing their best to minimize harm. I’ll be looking into this vegan cat food though & doing my best to make changes where I can.
I think feeding the cat beans and rice is the better option to basic store bought cat food. Less harm done overall, even if the cat's health is less than optimal, and like you said it's about people "doing their best to minimize harm". Thank you for looking into and considering it and agreeing to make changes where you can 💚
@jonahwhale9047 @vgnwlf Technically no, there is no necessity to own a cat, but then there is no necessity for anyone to own any pet. People love to keep and take care of pets because they love animals. You can’t just feed a cat rice and beans, they won’t want to eat it and will become malnourished, which is cruel, especially if they aren’t allowed outside to scavenge/hunt (and if they do go outside why bother trying to give them vegan food when they’ll hunt and eat meat/fish anyway?)
It's just the fashion choices. Idk about this whole full cheeks means youre youthful thing but idk about women in general. But in MY opinion you don't look old mom
I'm still pretty dubious about the reliability of vegan diets for cats, even if the study indirectly suggests parity in health outcomes between vegan and non-vegan diets. The fact that the duration is excluded from the methods is suspicious to say the least. I would love nothing more than to feed my cats a vegan diet, but they do not find the foods palatable and had very unhappy cats and weight loss in already lean pets. I can't explain the ethics to them, they are simply looking for me to give them love, protection, and nutrition. So, I seek pet foods that are as far from factory-farmed as possible to balance my desire to live a vegan lifestyle and ensure my pets are optimally cared for. Perhaps if I had I introduced the vegan food when they were kittens, it may have been feasible, but I had only just become vegan in 2010 when two of my cats were born and I hadn't really considered it. The "baby" who is 8 years younger might have been an option, but let's face it, isolating foods from cats that self-regulate and you are not home for 10+ hours on weekdays is just not in the cards. Cue the melodramatic hand-wringing from puritanical nitwits who will call me a "carnist" or a fake vegan... But I live my life in a way that limits animal suffering in nearly every way feasible in the Western world. I adopted my animals from shelters to give them loving homes and this is cognitive dissonance I am willing to accept.
@@somad6997 Your inflated sense of ego reads loud and clear, but I'll address your comments head-on. Choice of Pets: Adopting a pet isn't a casual shopping trip where you pick the most convenient item. It's a deep commitment to a living being. Implying that I should've just handpicked a "vegan-compatible" pet is a gross oversimplification of the bond and responsibility involved. Existence of Cats: Your value judgment surrounding the harm of a cat's existence is a problematic stance. Every animal has its place in the ecosystem, and cats are no exception. Denying their right to exist or be cared for based on their natural diet is ethically questionable. Euthanization Argument: Your perspective on prioritizing certain animals based on diet compatibility is narrow-minded. All animals in shelters are vulnerable. By adopting any animal, I'm reducing the burden on these shelters and giving an animal a chance at a better life. It's not about ranking one animal over another; it's about making a positive difference. Living Ethically: Lastly, your insinuation about my choices doesn't capture the full picture. I strive to live ethically in every aspect of my life, and that includes providing the best care for my pets. It's easy to judge from the outside, it's cheap easy and chicken shit to cast aspersions from the cheap seats on RUclips. I know for a fact that you don't live the perfect vegan life, no one does. So maybe sit down and work on yourself instead of virtue signaling to other.s. Another bad take in the Unnatural Vegan comments section. Feel free to take the last word. You've been muted as I don't waste any more time than I need to with bad faith actors that seek to denegrate the community with which they largely agree rather than addressing systemic and commodified animal suffering on a large scale.
@EverythingIsPhotogenic if more vegans were like you, sane and rational, there would probably be a lot more of us The evangelical fundamentalist vegans are the number one reason people aren't joining our ranks. There are no perfect solutions.
I think I need to learn about P values & watch this video again 😂 my Mum was a vetinary assistant though & has always strongly believed cats can't be vegan but dogs can
If you think that a domesticated cat is the same as a lion I don’t know what to tell you. If cats were like lions they wouldn’t be surviving off of conventional cat food and food they find in the garbage. They are not like lions, cheetahs or leopards. Cats were domesticated. While they are carnivores and have carnivorous tendencies, all of their nutritional needs can be met without meat. Overall, it seems that cats can be vegan in *general*. It is a really lazy argument to just say “they are carnivores, period.” When we have the ability to reduce harm, we should reduce it.
I wish people would stop parroting this lame BS catering to carnivorism, and just feed the cats the most nutritionally sound plant food possible, and deal with the consequences. Such a simple solution vegans have been employing for years, which causes the least harm practical and possible. Use your noggin people, stop letting others think for you.
@@TUG657 You're right in that they are not like lions, cheetahs or leopards. They are like African Wild Cats, which aren't _that_ far off genetically from house cats...and are _also_ obligate carnivores.
To the point of "cats who have a regular source of food rarely eat what they hunt": I guess no one explained that to my former cats^^ They were even picky: birds are food but mice are food depending on what kind of mice they are. The ones with the dark stripe are non-food apparently. And yes, my cats had dry food and wet food, different types/brands of food, cat milk, snacks, special cat grass, all of it. They hunted because they wanted/out of instinct, not because they were starving. How do I know it was instinct? Because one of my cats was found when she was
It is a pity that people feel the need to oversell the vegan diet. Cats on a vegan diet being just as healthy as cats eating meat would have been a great outcome of this study. Now they sow doubt where there would have been none.
I would consider it a win that they are just as healthy on a vegan diet. I WOULD GUESS that their thought process is that 'then why would I go out of my way to do that when I can feed them a meat based diet...'
To me when it comes to cats it's not just about them being as healthy. Hunting is such a huge part of a cats life, I would be concerned how it would affect a cat mentally to never be allowed to eat meat.
@teijaflink2226 If a cat would never be allowed to hunt, you mean? I am not familiar with all the toys for cats that are available, but are there not some with which you can simulate the act of hunting?
@@teijaflink2226 (please not that this is all my experience) Indoor cats will likely never hunt to any real degree. But you are never going to stop an outdoor cat from it. It just won't be a predominant part of the cats diet. Also, regardless of diet, a lot of cats don't actually eat what they catch assuming they have enough to eat.
It’s an arbitrary term for domesticated animals IMO. If more and more studies show that cats can be healthy on a vegan diet, I suppose it doesn’t make cats obligate carnivores. But yet again, feeding cats vegan is “unnatural” (technically even conventional cat food is “unnatural” since it has less than 70% meat).
Unlike omnivores they still need nutrients that are only found in meat naturally. They can only "be vegan" if it's synthetically created and supplemented in their diet.
It is not only taurine. Obligate carnivores need a different amino acid composition than omnivores and herbivores. The composition of amino acids in the food influences the pH of the urine. Carnivore urine is slightly acidic, omnivore urine more neutral, herbivore urine slightly alkaline. The wrong pH of the urine for the species can lead to kidney and bladder stones. The amino acid composition can be formulated but you need first to know the nutritional requirement (e.g. is it a carnivore or a herbivore?). Also, cats (and other obligate carnivores) often get problems when fed carbohydrates long-term.
@jonahwhale9047 Chronic kidney disease is a disease of old age in cats, kidney are not. Kidney stones are due to alkaline pH in cats which is caused by the wrong amino acid composition in their food since they are obligate carnivores. Of course, the amino acid composition in vegan cat food can be adjusted to fit cat requirements. That does not change the fact that they are obligate carnivores, just like humans are omnivores, but can live healthily on a vegan diet if they add a few supplements. Regular non-vegan cat food is often grain-based and not balanced. I completely agree.
Right now I'm still skeptical, not from a "cats cant be vegan" standpoint but from a quality control one. Until there is vegan cat from a company with good standards, I probably will be. However, Bond Pet Foods, a start up trying to make pet food with cultured meat, actually has a partnership with Hills Science Diet. So, if Bond ever comes to maket and I can afford it, I'll probably get it for my cat.
Professor Andrew knight has a video list of about 30 videos - if you have cats or dogs I’d recommend you sit through them and then you’ll learn so much I listened on my commutes to work
Want a vegan pet? Don't get a cat, they are obligated carnivores. You're likely causing more harm to the animals doing this. I mean this is like trying to feed a (grass eating) cow a meat only diet this would likely lead to the animals not living very long..
There’s a brand called Noochies which is mostly focused on dog food but has cat snacks. As one may infer, it’s a nutritional yeast based food (a proprietary one). It does seem dog food is their main thing but perhaps cat food is a coking down the line. I do think cultivated meat will be the only thing to upend most people feeling uncomfortable giving cats a vegan diet. Dogs are entirely different and I think they are much easier to keep healthy on a vegan diet that considers all their nutritional needs. When you said a vegan who’s cat isn’t doing well on a vegan diet may not tell that to people so that they also feed their cat a vegan diet, then that’s kind of the other side of the same unethical coin. You’d be willing to cause suffering to your own cat and others for the sake of other animals. If it’s a strong position to not feed a cat a vegan diet then you have 2 options… Don’t take in a cat Have a cat that is outdoor primarily with some supplemental feed made of animal byproducts. Although then you would have to contend with the fact that cats, especially in urban areas, have been a large contributor to the deaths of birds Of course, it is natural for a cat to hunt and in nature this fine. The only aspect of this that is unethical is that the vast number of cats (stray and not) are because of human’s breeding them. So again, it comes back to us. I have a cat. I’m vegan. I don’t feed him vegan. It isn’t practicable at this time. The food is expensive. I choose byproduct based food. This cat came into my life before I was vegan. After he dies, I will not take in another cat. As for dogs, I think this will be different. There are also plenty of other animals raised in captivity that are totally/predominantly herbivorous so if that’s an option to adopt I would look into that.
Petcurean has some vegan options. I don't feed my dog or cat a vegan diet, but Petcurean is a fabulous brand that does a ton of research and has a wide variety of food options. I have tried the vegan kibbles just to see if my dog would eat them, and unfortunately while she liked it just fine, it caused really bad eye goop for her (which is something a variety of foods can cause for her).
As a stats major, stats seems to be both universally required in nearly every field and also universally misunderstood in every field. I think the most valuable part of actually majoring in statistics is learning to identify misrepresented and improperly applied results and methods. It’s insane how easy it is to misrepresent results with clever framing
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You seem to be a nit example of the widespread phenomenon known as grade inflation or grading leniency.
@MdoubleHBxxx. You missed a few comments... You posted your same false statement to almost comment, but you missed a few. Come on, you gotta paste it to all the comments....that makes it true?
UTIs are prevalent in male cats regardless of diet. Do urine pH tests on every male, cat every month The pH meter is only a tenner and crystals in urine can be painful
@jonahwhale9047 its certainly possible. Also related to dry food (regardless of whether the food is meat or vegan) Since male cats urethra is much smaller than female cats they are more prone to UTIs and crystals - so really I wish this knowledge was more widespread and owners of male cats would do the urine pH testing Crystals so painful for cats and can be fatal- yet can be picked up early with the pH and resolved with a few pills
Great! So grateful to have a Vegan advocate offer up a no non-sense, intelligent debate about this "HOT" topic... I am Vegan but my cats are not and that is how it will stay as long as there is not more substantial research that a Vegan diet can be an actuallly viable option and not endanger my cats health 🙀 I have spoken to so many professionals in this scace and 99% of them agree that feeding plants to cats is not a safe option and would require constant monitoring, blood tests and scrutiny to ensure your cat doesn't develop Cardiomyapathy or other deadly illnesses😿
Do they need constant blood tests and scans, even if they are fed veterinary approved kibble from pet food manufacturers? I doubt that. Diseases like cardiomyapathy may come from lack of taurine, but also non-diet related reasons. I'm sceptical of random veterinarians who are usually not vegan, and probably only relies on what they learned in their education many years ago for their conclusion about feeding cats a vegan diet. They may even believe that humans cannot be vegan. They may google what ACPCA says about vegan cats, and say it can't be done, and ACPCA gives absolutely no reason for it. As for ethics, many animals that are fed to the cat, so really, if you don't even want to risk the cat suffering from a plant exclusive diet, why not just put the cat to sleep instead? The other animals will be slaughtered otherwise in much more brutal ways.
Non issue. Cats are carnivores and were evolutionary selected to eat meat. It is the same issue as adding meat derivative to a cows diet. Just because it is possible it doesn’t mean that is right. Don’t want to feed meat to a cat then dont have one.
Some statisticians also now are "just report the actual p. Instead of 'below x'" This because when p values were made, you had to calculate by hand. You had a table of what your z value could be depending on factors. Now you calculate the actual p value in a program like excel
My cat isn't vegan, but I like adding the few veggies cat's can digest & she had a snack based on insect protein today. Honestly, even if I fed her a plantbased diets she would never be close to vegan as she enjoys killing mice 🐭 My cat was 10 when she started living with me btw!
@@BornAgainVegan-gp4iw Abusing their cat with a diet that lacks little evidence is not vegan. By definition, veganism is about practability, so you can take your judgement away.
@@BornAgainVegan-gp4iwhey spoiler. Some vegans have non vegan partners they share a table with and they may even buy their partners some normal cheese! Or has their kids not be vegan!
I can't find your video on Evolution Pet Foods. I just ordered a case of canned food literally hours ago. I consulted with Dr. May and she recommended it. Please let me know what is wrong with it? I don't want to harm my little kitten or cat. Please respond asap. TIA
I think it really is just for each their own plus how much you actually have to pay. With the UTIs, that is most likely due to feeding dry food. It is incredibly common for cats who eat kibble to get UTIs. For me, I honestly had to switch my cat to more meat diet as he is almost a senior and does not absorb protein as much as he used to
@jonahwhale9047 lmao my cat literally wasting away is not a natural death tho? Like you are implying that is natural to allow my cat to waste away eating non-animal cat food to the point he is only skin and bones is natural is literally the most unnatural thing for a cat hence them wasting away lol. This is such a silly argument especially if you are basing it off of what is “natural” and I honestly even question the ethical part because my cat literally exists and has lived with me his whole life for almost 10 years so im confused what natural ethical things you actually think are reasonable to do with a cat that already exists and has been living in doors their whole life?? Don’t even get me started about the birds when my cat has literally only been outside supervised. Like the implication that it is better to starve my cat and have him painfully die from not getting nutrients or even if ur implying he should be put down or let out in the wild (which would literally be the natural thing) which would make him contribute to killing the birds, all so one cat cannot consume the pet food can that is already on the shelf is so silly to me. I understand if you want to have an argument about the ethics of owning a carnivorous animal but like it seems weirdly focused on cats eating meat which I don’t really understand how we are treating animals ethically when we are literally trying to force one to be a vegan or imply they should die for what is NATURAL for them 😐.
@jonahwhale9047 I'm a bit confused about how feeding my older cat a diet with more protein, which is essential for his well-being, relates to UTIs. The reason I mentioned UTIs is to highlight that dry cat food is strongly associated with these issues. It seems a bit strange to bring up UTIs in the context of "wild" cats when there's no comparison to the dry food in their diet. To clarify, cats are naturally prone to UTIs because they originated from dry desert environments. This evolutionary background has adapted them to obtain a significant portion of their hydration from their prey. In the wild, feral and wild cats would be hunting, and their diet would be rich in moisture. Cats have a lower thirst drive, stemming from their origins in these arid places. This is why domesticated cats often suffer from UTIs because they don't naturally drink enough water to meet their hydration needs. In fact, high-protein wet cat food is often marketed as having high moisture content for this very reason. My point is that your idea of what's "natural" for cats seems a bit off, especially given the strong stance you've taken. Life isn't a Disney movie, and the cats you refer to as "in the wild" are either strays or feral cats, not "wild cats." The argument that feral cats only live 2-5 years is quite debatable, and some studies suggest they can live 7-10 years. Feral cats that come from generations of feral cats develop adaptations to survive in urban areas and are similar in many ways to other wild animals. In captivity, they often fare worse than common domesticated cats. Regarding the ethics of feeding cats vegan diets, I won't claim to have all the answers, but the estimate that 300 animals a year are killed for every 90kg of pet food sounds dubious. The number of animals used to produce pet food varies significantly based on factors like the type of pet food, ingredient quality, and the specific product (e.g., kibble, treats, pate). We should also remember that most cat food contains a significant amount of non-animal ingredients. Ethically, I have to question whether it's realistic, given the facts about what's essential for maintaining a cat's health naturally. It seems a bit contradictory to advocate for animal rights and welfare but then suggest that we force a naturally carnivorous animal to go vegan, especially when it can lead to preventable health issues like UTIs. It's just odd to me to imply that you're okay with an animal suffering from the pain of a UTI and a potentially agonizing death because their bladder ruptured, all for something that can be avoided, just because you want to impose a vegan diet on an animal that's naturally a carnivore.
@jonahwhale9047cats absolutely need meat. You can pontificate the ethics of having a carnivore pet but do not pretend that starving an animal is somehow the ethical thing to do. Also most pet food is made of scraps of the meat industry waste, not its own animal slaughter industry. Cats live so short inthe wild because they get killed and encounter disease. Moreover, since plant agriculture also kills animals, vegan cat food would still have animal deaths contributing to its production.
Since vegan diet for cats is a somewhat newer technology, wouldn't you have to account for true believers of the diet under reporting signs of ill health by taking away the pet owner factor? Randomly selecting a group of cats into 2 diet groups and otherwise taking care of them and evaluating them in a double blind/similar way.
Yes! I also find it odd there is no mention about AGE or DRY FOOD VS WET FOOD. I say this to say 1) with age cats need different nutrients for example older cats require more protein than younger cats. 2) dry food to me is one of the biggest factors in cat UTIs. Cats do not drink water nearly as much as they should. Wet food is great because if can accommodate to an extent for this (but still please continue to encourage your cats to drink water in addition to wet food). All and all I think at this point we have VERY little studies in how vegan diets for cats work. I honestly think what makes more sense to focus on as vegans is getting animals like rabbits or rats or hamsters instead of an animal that is considered a carnivore
Vegans need studies for everything, truth is simple What is a cat? A carnivore What should it eat? Meat That simple, no paid studies or “soyence” needed
Vegans need studies for everything, the truth is simple: A rescued cat is better off having less than optimal health on a plant based diet over the course of their life (even if shorter than ideal) living in a loving comfortable home, than suffer the far worse alternative fates available to it; and it isnt justifiable to kill multiple animals and financially support the meat industry on behalf of a single cat; so stop the BS and just feed the cat plants. 😤
@@elise3455Which of these foods have Taurine and Meat specific acids and nutrients needed for longterm good eyesight, liver health, and multiple organ functions.
@@oj397my cat eats some rice,cake,bread and chips,biscuits but her main food is meat and bonemarrow,fish. She is healthy and very active just a bit overweight from the carbs and little sugar. I seen sugar free cake and biscuit recipe for cats which are mixed with iodine salts instead of sugar and butter,talo instead of seedoils
Idk why The System makes it seem like making homemade petfood is like rocket science. You just have to do some basic math and some weighing. The most inconvenient part is finding a butcher who can sell you all parts of an animal, not just the muscle meat. This is how I feed my dog.
I have 2 dogs who have been fed mostly plant based for almost a decade and are in great health compared to their canine peers the same age. They have never had a single health problem, have shiny coats, youthful energy, etc. Please stop needlessly hurting and exploiting other animals on behalf of your dogs.
@@vgnwlf Very cool, my dog is in great health eating poultries and fishes and beeves. He eats a couple veggies too, I follow the ‘BARF’ model. I wouldn’t feed processed corn or soy to myself and I wouldn’t feed it to my dog. My dog’s breed doesn’t do well with legumes, so those are crossed off the list too. Vegans are funny
I feed my cats Benovo wet . At first they didn’t like it but I used flavour enhancers - spirulina and nooch. I feed Benovo dry but as treats not as a food.
I spoke to professor Andrew knight about his latest study and he really wants to do blood tests etc but the limitation was money. Anyone have a research grant to send him?
WHY would you even think of feeding ANY carnivore a vegetarian or God forbid a vegan diet. It's a crime to impose your beliefs on your pets. Wrong on all levels.
@@stevenspeakman5363 Horrible things. It is natural for human beings to wipe out all the men of the neighbouring tribe and take the women as sex slaves. This has happened all throughout our history and will keep happening until we are no more. But does that mean that it is *good?* Surely it isn't. So what is natural is not always good.
As someone that is an academic researcher, anytime a study says self reported from whatever the group is that is not a strong study of any sort of Legitimate evidence. Because it’s plagued with the bias of the owners and if you’re even considering giving your cat a vegan diet you can already kind of tell what sort of bias exists there A more legitimate study would probably be best with middle-aged cats and consistent blood and physical examination monitoring
If you don't have evidence to the contrary, and insist on throwing out all evidence that exists because you don't like it (because you're clearly biased), then the best you can say is "I don't know".
What is so weird about vegan cat food is it says "not tested on animals" on the packet. But I know that if something I use to feed my cat is not tested, then that makes my cat the experiment. This is one of the only exceptions where I would actually rather see animal testing. I thiink about it as being potentially bad for a few cats who are tested, but it's for the greater good of the larger population of cats in the world. Why would I rather no experiments be conducted and intead all cats in the world just be one big, potentially cruel experiment?
You want to abuse and kill other cats and animals on behalf of your cat's optimal health? Wow, some of you people confound me. What if you were the lab animal?
If you’re fighting animal cruelty by not providing your animal the best avenue for the nutrition, acids, taurine it needs, then guess what? You’re participating directly in animal cruelty. Get. A. Rabbit.
Pets are family members - you can't just swap the one who already loves you for another of a different species because you don't like the idea of a plant-based commercial pet food (which contains the same nutrients as the meat-based packaged food). Only a non-vegan could be OK with that attitude.
@@fuseconned3988Then don’t try to stop animal cruelty with animal cruelty against said family member slowly destroying their eyesight, energy, kidneys, and other bodily functions.
@@fuseconned3988you probably killed your cat because you imposed your selfish beliefs on an animals that requires meat. I hope you feel all the guilt for the suffering you caused your cat
@jonahwhale9047Man shut up, have you owned a cat and let it outside? Your cat never returned to you with a bird, mouse, snake after a long day? Then again the fact that you’re setting your cat up for kidney failure and can’t spell you’re probably a Hermit and force your cat inside by you all day.
since domestic animals are different than their wild counterparts. as vegans, any "animal testing" is frowned upon, right? even trying out different plant based diets for cats. do I think cats can digest some carbs? sure. but...here we go...maybe lab grown meat should be used to feed our pets?! just a thought.
There are companies trying to develop such things, various methods, there was a company I recall off the top of my head exploring a “meat” that could be produced via some enzyme produced via yeast, and there are some companies doing cell line/cloned meat that do have the goal of producing pet food.
I'm a psych student that did a lot of stats courses, let me try to explain the statistics, in case anyone's interested. p-value: Does the observed "difference" qualify being called different? Imagine a bunch of coloured balls in a bag and you have to pick out red balls with a red-ball seeking tool to check if it actually works. If p=0.05, there is a 5% chance that you can pick only the red balls by your bare hands (i.e. by chance) without the help of the tool. If p=0.01, there's a 1% chance. Abiding to either p
So in this study they dont follow the cats for their entire lives and they dont do any bloodwork? Im not doing experiments on my cat...
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From now on, you'll feed your cat nothing but living birds, rodents, insects, frogs and lizards, as nature intended. And of course, never neuter or splay your cat, that’s also an experiment.
@ ---- _From now on, you'll feed your cat nothing but living birds, rodents, insects, frogs and lizards, as nature intended. And of course, never neuter or splay your cat, that’s also an experiment._ ---- Being alive or dead doesn't change the nature of the food. Giving grass to your cat does change something.
Absolutely right!👍My😺😸are going to have a fried chicken treat for lunch. They bring me mice but I've yet to taste one. [ Fun fact: Within Adventist Health Study 2, folk assigned to the "Vegan" category consumed a daily avge of 3.1g of animal protein; equivalent to a quarter-pounder cheeseburger, every 10 days.🤗😄🤣]
I don't have cats, but my 2 chihuahuas love broccoli, avocados, melons, apples, bananas, berries, kale ribs, zucchini, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, beans, oats, nut butters, etc (pretty much everything I eat, both cooked and raw) as well as the small serving of fortified dry vegan dog food they get in the morning. I've had them nearly 10 years and they are in wonderful health, and look half the age of other dogs the same age.
Ethically, it's a no-brainer. Only adopt a cat from a shelter, get them desexed, keep them indoors, and feed them the least amount of animal product possible to keep them reasonably healthy.
Mutilating a cat reproduce organs is not vegan. If vegans think it is ok, then it is ok for me to eat meat. Forcing your cat to stay in your house, is enslavement.
@ it's abuse to call someone racist and homophobic slurs but it's not abuse to call a dog names, so the fact that if you did something to a human it would be abuse is irrelevant. Animals don't make a conscious choice to start a family and don't 'consent' to getting pregnant and having babies. As long as shelters are overflowing with unwanted cats and dogs, to the point where they are forced to euthanise hundreds of thousands of healthy animals every year, it's completely unethical to breed more into existence when there aren't enough homes for them.
Thanks you for bringing this up. I think every vegan should be talking about this. I have two healthy vegan cats myself, and if every vegan feeds their cat vegan cat food that would save millions of animals. Without convincing a single carnist to go vegan. It's definitely a very important topic 💚💪
Yay! I'm always so happy to hear of healthy vegan cats ☺️ If it were to become scientifically accepted and mainstream knowledge that cats can thrive on a plant based diet, even if supplemented, it would do a lot of good for the vegan movement! Hopefully more convincing studies come out, even though personally I am convinced of it's viability already, (nor would I be able to validate exploiting and killing multiple other animals on behalf of 1 pet's health.)
@@vgnwlf For sure. I mean it is scientifically accepted given all of the several research papers on it show it's no less healthier than regular vegan cat food and likely healthier. But yeah, it just needs to be more ubiquitous. However, it doesn't even matter much if non-vegans know as they probably wouldn't accept it either way. It's likely a lot more important for vegans for know about it
@jonahwhale9047 No , cat owners in general aren't likely to go vegan. But many vegans hold this attitude about feeding cats plant based being "abuse". So it would be quite healthy for that to change. Someone already vegan isn't likely to take in a cat unless it's a rescue, I would hope. And in the case of a rescue feeding them plant based food is the only viable option in harmony with the vegan ethic. Overall I agree that pet ownership in general isn't vegan, but taking care of abandoned animals in need is. I realized this when I was a kid and bought a lizard from the store, and through the years of owning him I could tell he just desperately wanted to be free. I vowed to never buy an animal again, the whole concept of animals for sale is slavery after all. But I have ended up with other abandoned animals falling in my lap, and if cats can thrive on a supplemented plant based diet any animal likely could. I sense some people desperately cling to the "don't abuse obligate carnivores by feeding them plants" idea in order to discredit veganism overall, that's why discrediting that BS idea would be good for the vegan movement.
If you feel the need to feed your cat a vegan diet, and strip them from the natural diet and joy of life, YOU are part of the problem. Those unholy righteous vegans
Less than a minute in, I want to add that like some dog breeds, some cats do really well plant-based while others do poorly. It really depends on the individual. My cats (indoor cats) love hummus and even eat bits of my salad, so I thought they might enjoy vegan cat kibble and they eat it just the same as the non (theytore up the nice resealable bag, so I have to hide it from them in a top kitchen cabinet). They are not "vegan cats" since it is very difficult to get wet food for them and it's the only way they will take medications if needed. 🤷♀️ For orange male tabbys, they seem to need special diets (meat based) and will still develop crystals on rare occasions. Your vet should STILL do PH urine checks no matter what your cats are eating.
Even if a vegan diet would be healthy for a cat, is it right to make a cat eat a vegan diet? They can´t choose that lifestyle and they are naturally predators who eat meat. It just seems wrong to me to make that decision for my cat.
Even if you think that is correct, could feeding the cat a vegan diet not be "the lesser of two evils"? I'll try to explain what I mean: You take full responsibility for the wellbeing of the cat, but I don't see you taking full responsibility for what you pay someone else to do when you buy meat for the cat. If you buy commercial cat food you can be certain that the animals had a horrible life and got killed at tiny fraction of their lifespan. And you would be paying for a lot of them having that experience over the lifetime of the cat. Even if you pay the nicest farm ever, the animals will still be killed at a fraction of their lifespan. Imagine standing in front of a rabbit and a cat and only one of them can survive and live happily together with you as their caretaker while the other will be killed by you. Does their happiness not count the same? What you are doing when you pay for the non vegan cat food is always choosing to kill rabbits, chickens, pigs, etc again and again and again in a cycle of unfairly choosing one animal over the other that only ends once the cat dies. To make it clear, the cat is not to blame and her happiness counts just as much. The cat did not choose to be born into its carnivorous body. But you are the one making the unfair choices. In my opinion vegan cat food at this point in time is not the purely good thing, but a much better compromise to the alternative that takes all the involved animals into consideration. Also, if you are uncomfortable with vegan cat food, why not give them freegan meat?
According to this logic cats also don’t choose to be pets, they don’t choose to eat conventional cat food (which contains a lot of plants). Choosing for others is just an inherent part of life-it’s the only way we can function as a society in a more moral and un-chaotic way.
It sounds like you're parroting the BS that's been pushed for years by cat worshipping fake-ass vegans, and anti-vegan propaganda pushers. Do the right thing, which would be doing the least harm possible and practical, and feed the darn cats PLANTS.
@@TUG657Actually cats are the only animal that CHOSE to be domesticated because they saw humans as a better and easier food source unlike livestock or say dogs which were intentionally sought out and bred to be domesticated. So your argument doesn’t make sense.
All I know is reasons why it cannot work... which had ALL come from the 1980's. So, assuming things have changed during the past 37 years or so, perhaps today it already IS possible to feed Cats Vegan. Perhaps a way HAS been found, to successfully incorporate ALL essential nutrients into a Vegan Cat food. If Yes, it most certainly IS Grand. Would Love it if You will make a follow-up vid, extensively exploring whether or not current Vegan (and non-Vegan) Cat food options do actually meet Cats' nutritional requirements. However: if a Cat goes outside, they will hunt - and, if they lack certain nutrients on their daily routine diet, they shall eat their prey, definitely. As THEY ARE CATS. Not humans.
People have been keeping healthy vegan cats for a long ass time, the science is only beginning to reflect that fact. Anyway, I am very unimpressed with people spoiling their cats and killing other animals on behalf of their "health". Reaks of arrogance and moral lameness. Maybe we can't stop cats being predators outside, but we can refuse to be predators ourselves on their behalf. If they want loving owners who provide them with nice places to live they can learn to tolerate properly fortified plant based food. Please stop catering to their carnivorous and predatory behavior, you are their caretaker but not their slave. And their health possibly being a little less than optimal does not justify murdering many other animals on their behalf and financially supporting exploitation and slaughter in the marketplace.
@@vgnwlf And THIS comment, Meine Dammen und Herren, is a PERFECT example to a *revoltingly hateful and alarmingly fanatic person, who should be barred from **_EVER_** belonging to ANY Cat.* The actual scientific fact is that, at least predating properly enriched and fortified plant-based Cat-foods, Cats who did not eat meat went blind. *Cats are not humans. We have a choice, and can easily go Vegan; Cats cannot. They are carnivorous by Nature.* I have known *SICK people like you,* creature. And *ONLY* because of THEM, because if people who went *as low as to call for **_a complete genocide of all Cats_** if they cannot be veganized,* that it had taken me AN EXTRA ELEVEN YEARS to go Vegan myself (2015, instead of 2004...😰), simply since they had made Vegans seem like a bunch of mentally distorted madmen, instead of the Morally Superior Beauties, which I *now* know us Vegans to TRULY be.
Cats are carnivores though. Biology, their digestive tracts are set up for meat. There's tons of studies that show humans who are on a vegan diet have less B-12, less Taurine, and less better absorbable iron. I'm curious what is being put in place of meat. Legumes, soy, and white potatoes can cause issues for cats long term. Meat is the best source for cats. There's 41 essential vitamins and minerals needed for cats to thrive. Thus far kibble I've looked at have questionable ingredients. I'd also like to know what type of food was given that was "meat based" There's a lot of poor quality brands out there.
@@meganc7911 Of course, however the question is, is it now possible, to create a "Vegan meat" for Cats, which shall include all necessary ingredients. I believe that, in a day when 3D Printers work wonders with Vegan "meat" for humans, the solution for a satisfactory and nutritionally appropriate Vegan Cat food is obtainable.
If a study was saying that cutting the head of your cat was good for the cat, the vegans would do it. Without studies, how the vegans would be able to live ?
Lol, it's kinda true! My fellow vegans do bazaarly unethical things in the name of "science". The hooplah over "obligate carnivores" and the "optimal health" of house cats a clear example.
@@fuseconned3988 ---- _So... You're saying that vegans like to base their decisions on real evidence rather than just making things up? That's actually quite a compliment!_ 😊 --- Sure, and if a study says you have to cut your cat's head to be healthy, you would do it.
@@fuseconned3988The “evidence” was a faulty study with multiple undocumented variables of an unknown sample size with limited resources to run it in the first place. I mean if I tell you running of a cliff solves depression and I put a fancy chart up showing people who have done it and have been happy, would you just take my word for it no further inquiries? If so you’re a dunce.
First of all a "disclaimer" I'm not vegan, though I don't eat a lot of meat normally once or twice a week, but not here to crap on Veganism/Vegan cats just to give my thoughts. Personally I think its possible to have a cat on a well produced vegan diet. But personally I don't think it's a question on if you can have a cat vegan on a highly processed, artificial food but if you should (not hypocritical as i despise kibble too). To me we are choosing to keep these animals so its our responsibility to feed then what they are made to eat not what they can eat (with some mild caveats that I'll address later). The big problem I see with these studies alot with vegan vs none vegan cats in addition to some of the points made in the video is that they're comparing a better quality but still unnatural food, being the vegan one as typically they're still better quality, to a down right horrible food (being the cr*p they put into kibbles & wet foods). Will say I do think a wet food is better then a kibble in a lot of ways but still have a lot if short comings. Its the effect that you see people have when they go on unsustainable but cleaner diets (ie the raw fruit diet, carnivore etc). Once accustomed to it they start to feel amazing and noticed improved health, because they do. But not because the diet is good for them but because its a lot cleaner then the processed stuff they've been eating previously. After enough time most switch to a more sustainable diet because they realise its short comings or stuck with it because they're in denial and their health suffers (can literally see it when you look at these people). Thats effectively what they're doing in these studies. Comparing before when the animal was on a poor quality food to a higher quality food (as generally vegan animal diets do pay a bit/lot more attention due to who is their customer base is as they're more likely to actually pay attention to this) and then draw the conclusion that vegan is better then meat for these animals. Me personally I feed my cat raw (various body parts and whole small animals plus some plant matter). Same for my dog he's on raw with a mix of animal parts, whole animals and plant matter. Not the premade diets but done myself. Will say I feel confident in my knowledge on how to provide a balanced over time raw diet for them from my previous experience working on a carnivore section at a large zoo with then making some adjustments, ie adding more plant matter to my dogs diet compared to how the wolves were fed as its a dog not a wolf. Even with my other animals I give a wide variety of foods to them, the amphibians, lizards etc having a wide range of insects not just one or two types, the snakes having a range if snall mammals, birds, lizards, amphibians and for the snake eating species other snakes etc. The cases I do use artificial foods ie rodents and birds, these are as a supplement to make sure I'm covering the nutrients they need along side their raw diet. Just one example is the rats i breed for the snakes mostly have a whole seed, nut, veg/low sugar fruits like green pepper, squash etc diet. As well as a range of invertebrates. Then get one pellet each a day as a supplement and occasionally get sugary fruits and actual "meat" ie peft over bones, day old chicks etc. Btw occasionally means once or twice a month. Imo we should feed animals what they were made to eat not what they can eat because we want them too for our own convenience/morals/lifestyle. If you're vegan and want a vegan pet you should get a vegan pet. Ie rabbits, Guinea pigs, true vegan fish etc. Note not tortoises. All of them naturally scavenge bones for calcium and need a source like cuttlefish bones. Many species also needing actual animal protein like Red Foots which both eat invertebrates and savage animal carcasses. Some of the caveats I said I'd address is for example if its not the exact foid species in nature but similar and does the same job. My King Rat snake from China eats pretty much everything including a significant amount of snakes. Me feeding him Corn snakes from North America isn't natural true but its more natural then just feeding him rats abd mice and making it obese like most people do with them. Also acceptions is when an animal has specific conditions and need a specific diet. A friend of mine has a dog allergic to nearly everything and has to eat an artificial kibble that's made from insects.
I agree that dry kibble is horrible. I think we should try raw and balanced car diet. Its so difficult for me in turkey to access this since a cat would never kill a calf or a chicken anyway. But I still try my best with the super premium meat based cat food. I am trying my best with being vegan myself and as long as my cats live, ı will not ‘try’ the vegan diet on them. I don’t find it ethical to cross this line. Anyway the reality is cats are not suitable for indoor feeding… kibble is a horrible main food source. At the moment it is what it is and we can’t justify going a step further to vegan kibble just because its already bad.
Does anyone know of any commercial brands that develop vegan cat food that is based on science, meets all the nutritional requirements, and has approval from vets?
The only one I can think of is one by Purina or Hill's and it has hydrolyzed soy protein. I'm pretty sure it's prescription for cats with IBS or allergies. Can't remember the name.
So I double checked and I was thinking of Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets HA Hydrolyzed Dry Cat Food. It does have chicken in it but soy is the main protein. Sorry!
@@MdoubleHBxxx. I do agree that cats are carnivores and not meant to live off a vegan diet, however I don't see the problem with a vegan being a cat owner. Cats are carnivores by nature and there's no reason to demonize them for it. There are millions of cats in shelters who deserve homes and adopting one isn't a bad thing.
@@maxgain4611 It could be hundreds of animals suffering for 1 cat. Go to any animal welfare/rights website, watch some videos on what goes on in animal agriculture. Obviously it's not abuse if it's nutritious and they are healthy, as thousands of cat owners said they were.
@@bdbyt6835 abuse is what happens in animal agriculture - it is the farmed animals who are actually abused and fed to the cat that you should be worried about if animal welfare is something you care about. Vegan cats are healthy and well taken care of according to studies, for example the one that came out in september 2023, or the systematic review in january 2023.
No, cats cannot be vegan!..But dogs can be vegan. It is possible to make vegan food for cats. Then you have to use processing, synthetic products, microorganisms and algae to make it happen. Protein from peas, beans and potatoes is of good protein quality, but there is also a lot of fiber and carbohydrates that must be removed in order to obtain sufficient protein content to meet the cat's needs, says Ahlstrøm. - Overall, this will be very expensive and very complicated if you want to do it yourself. Plz, cats cannot be Vegan... Cats are 100% carnivore.
Honestly, not enough research.... what are the ages of the cats? How long did they live on average? I have a 23-year-old non-vegan tabby, and I'm not too certain he'd be alive if I fed him vegan kibble or the regular cat kibble on the market.
This attitude is ridiculously abusive, illogical, and arrogant. All the vegans who've been caring for abandoned and neglected cats, and being accused of "animal abuse" for not killing multiple animals and financially supportingthe meat industry on their behalf, have had enough of this nonsense. Get a grip, stop the bazaar cat worship, and do what's right: feed cats plant based.
@@haydnstv they are dependent domesticated animals with no place in the wild kingdom, thus what they are supposed eat is what we feed them. So being responsible caretakers, we should be feeding them whatever will overall cause the least harm practical and possible, which would be a plant based diet as nutritionally adequate as we can provide. There is no justification in feeding them meat whatsoever. Euthanizing them is the better option if for some bazaar reason meat were necessary for them, and thankfully it isn't.
@@paigemontague4022 no because you would also think about hundreds of other animals forced to become cat food. Forcing them to be farmed is selfish just so you can have a pet.
@@nullethosechoes It would be for selfish reasons in fact it’s speciesism. You’re Trying to justify your choices By using cognitive dissonance to think that you’re doing something good when in reality you’re not. You’re putting your morals and ethics, human morals and ethics on an animal because you feel guilty about some thing that it was created and evolved to do. That’s just biology and if no one ever told you sometimes nature isn’t fair based on your beliefs but it doesn’t make it right or wrong, that’s human thinking. It just is
I disagree with the idea of making your cat or dog vegan for the same reason I’m sure people who are vegan disagree with someone eating meat. Animal cruelty because even if you don’t see it that way, you are imposing your human ethics and morality on an animal. If you’re about animal rights than you would not do this to a cat. Not to mention you’re running an incredibly risky game in terms of ensuring that you know what you’re doing to make sure a cat gets all of their nutritional needs In preparation of their meals. If you really care about speciesism or animal rights then you will not force an animal to do something outside of its natural state just so you can feel better personally as a human. The idea that because humans are typically healthier on a vegan diet, which already is not as straightforward as people like to make it seem because typically if they’re shooting to a vegan diet they were eating a standard North American diet which is horrendous for your health. But just because humans can do well in a vegan diet it should not be automatically assumed that cats or any other sort of animal that benefits for meat in greater ways than people argue for humans would somehow also do just as well or better.
i absolutely love cats and grew up with cats but I don't want a cat if I have to feed it non vegan food BUT I would feel bad if I'm feeding it vegan food that might detrimentally affect the cat. However, something I think about is wouldn't it be better if I take a cat from the shelter give it a loving home and still feed it a vegan diet despite maybe the possible reduction in a cat's lifespan? 😅
@@ReallyOrganic I just wouldn't get a cat as a pet, which is fine. This is just a thought I had never said it was a correct or just or ethical. However, if we are speaking about ideal diets most cats are not fed the ideal diet. In the video, Swayze discussed how most commercial foods available for cats are nutritionally deficient...
Now there's some beautiful reason and logic! Don't let anyone bully you out of it. Such cats are better off being loved and provided for and being fed a plant based diet, even IF their health were to be less than optimal, than being left in shelters etc.
Personally I would not rescue/adopt a cat, only to risk it going blind from lack of taurine, for example, through forcing them to be vegan.
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I don’t think you deeply understand what a p-value actually means. The cutoff p-value used for statistical significance is utterly arbitrary. There’s nothing magical about a p-value smaller than 0.05. It’s just a convention based mostly on tradition or habit (just like eating meat). The different health outcomes measured between the two groups of cats fed with the different two diets did exist (since in all measurements p-values were smaller than 0.5). What a p-value lower than 0.05 simply tells us is that if there were an infinite population of cats fed with control and plant-based diets and their different diets didn’t have any effect on the health outcomes that are measured for this study, the probability that the difference measured between the two groups of the sample were the effect of randomly picking that finite sample of cats used for the study would be less than 5%. Would there be much of a difference if instead of less than 5% were less than 10%? I don’t think so.
Um, p values are not arbitrary. Your comment indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of what p values are intended to signify and why it is important to determining whether the null hypothesis should be rejected. P values don't tell you that the effect size is 5%, they tell you that the chance of getting a false positive in the data is less than 5%. The difference between 5 and 10% when it comes to a result occurring by chance is not small, it's double, to be precise. If you understand statistics, you will understand this incontrovertible fact. If 5% of surgeries resulted in death, we would think long and hard about whether the benefit was worth the risk. At 10%, no one in their right mind would sign up for those odds. Statistics matter.
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@@EverythingIsPhotogenic, I don't think you can read. I never said p-values were arbitrary but the cutoff p-value that is used to decide the statistical significance of a result in support of a certain hypothesis. Likewise, I never said that p-values told me that the effect size is 5%. Have you ever heard of the straw-man fallacy? As for the 5% vs. 10% of surgeries resulting in death, have you ever heard of the false analogy fallacy? Instead, what you should have compared is the hard outcome of the standard of care treatment for a certain deadly pathology vs. the surgery, the null hypothesis being the surgery be at least just as deadly as the standard of care treatment, and a cutoff p-value either 0.05 or 0.10. In such situation, a p-value smaller than 0.10 would mean that if the surgery were at least just as deadly as the standard of care treatment, the probability of having the favorable result we have got in the trial (or a more favorable one) would be of less 10% (vs. less than 5%). Would you undergo such surgery (rather than the standard of care treatment) if you knew beforehand that even if the results of the surgery during the trial have been less deadly than the standard of care treatment, there's less than 10% of probability that even if the surgery is at least just as deadly they'd have got those favorable results for the surgery (or more favorable ones) in that clinical trial?
@ First and foremost, it's disappointing to see that instead of engaging in a constructive discussion, you've resorted to personal jabs and misrepresentations. Listing fallacies to discredit contextual comparison is a typical "debate bro" tactic and makes your argument appear weaker than it already is. Address the substance of the argument without resorting to insults and disingenuous discourse. P-values and the 0.05 Cutoff: You're trying to split hairs by saying you didn't call p-values arbitrary, but you did suggest the 0.05 cutoff is just a "habit" and the statistical significance "arbitrary." Despite your attempt to be pedantic, this is a mischaracterization. The 0.05 threshold is a widely accepted standard in the scientific community, not because of blind tradition, but because it strikes a balance in minimizing both Type I and Type II errors. It provides a level of confidence that the results are not just a product of random chance. 0.10 does not strike such a balance. Accusing someone of a straw-man fallacy while misrepresenting their argument is ironic. The point about the effect size was a clarification, not a misrepresentation of your argument. The distinction between a 5% and 10% chance of observing a result, if the null hypothesis were true, is crucial. It's not a minor difference; it's a doubling of the risk. In many contexts, especially in fields like medicine, this difference can be the line between an accepted practice and a rejected one. With that in mind, your attempt to reframe the surgery risk scenario misses the point. The analogy was to highlight the real-world implications of statistical decisions. It's not merely about comparing two numbers in isolation but understanding the broader consequences of those numbers. Confounding that in order to move the goalposts is a ineffective method of swaying someone who has a very robust understanding of and experience in research standards and methodologies. A word of advice, if you want to have your arguments taken seriously, approach these discussions with an open mind and mutual respect. Resorting to fallacy accusations and personal insults detracts from the substance of the argument and doesn't foster a productive conversation. Focus on the facts and the logic behind them, rather than resorting to rhetorical tactics. I don't waste time with bad faith dialectic, so feel free to take the last word here. Enjoy your day.
Well it's about time we all feed them vegan diets based on ethical reasons. Their 'optimal health' does not justify killing other animals on their behalf. The arrogance involved in people's attitudes about cats is bazaar, almost like a strange form of worship.
We adopted our rescue cat four years ago. If we were vegan back then, we might not have adopted him. For better or worse we're stuck with him, and he's a great companion. While I considered feeding him vegan, the studies seem iffy at best, and the availability is near zero where I live. He also has a sensitive stomach, and if he doesn't tolerate it, that's out of the window.
Lame. Spare the lives of more animals and feed the cat plants. Even feeding it oats and beans and rice is better than killing other animals on its behalf or financially supporting slaughter businesses.
You are so logical in most of your videos but this one.. just no... Saying it wouldnt be shocking if meat was bad for cats too? They are literally carnivores 🤦
I have 8 cats. 5 kittens,4 of whom will have lovely new homes soon ( I'm keeping 1 because I'm an idiot) I'm vegan, my cats are not. I do not have an issue with it. My chickens are vegan because it works. As far as I'm concerned cats are obligate carnivores and mine are very healthy. Even well fed they will still hunt and eat rodent life. I live in the countryside in Ireland so plenty to hunt. They eat EVERY bit! I love them and want them to be healthy and happy
Год назад+1
If you feed your cat farmed animal meat or you kill other animals to feed your cat, you aren’t vegan, just a plant-based dieter.
In the spirit of vegan ethics you should feed your cats plant based food. Even if it weren't nutritionally adequate, which it is. You can't control their outside predatory behavior, but you can control what you feed them in your home and thus your own predatory behavior on their behalf. Stop the "obligate carnivore" cat worship crap and do what's actually ethical, eh?
Until I have full proof, I'm not willing to risk the health of my cats that I love dearly. That's all I'm saying. When I'm 100% sure it's healthy, then yes, I would do my best. Just not yet.
![Summer Walker - Heart Of A Woman [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFddctbZzw8/mqdefault.jpg)
All great points, thanks for the vid. A few thoughts from me:
I lurk a vegan cat facebook group. This group got Professor Knight to give a webinar. He reiterated, multiple times, that no one should try to make their own cat food. But the members kept asking how they could. He was not pleased, it was very cringe...
Anyway, my concern is with availability. I would switch in a heartbeat if a brand like purina offered it. This same facebook group, you see tons of people struggling to keep a regular supply, and having to make substitutions. These small suppliers can't ensure consistency or availability. Unfortunately, our rescue is a neutered-as-an-adult male and has already had surgery for a UTI. So I'm very hesitant to switch (yes I'm morally conflicted).
Thanks again, great vid!
Consult people that are knowledgeable. I think from an ethical standpoint if the cat needs to eat meat or the supply of vegan options can't meet their need, then the right thing to do is feed them meat. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe a carnivore pet is not for you. Why do people insist on making their own cat food? People are bonkers.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. lol. Thanks for the laughs. I disagree with Swayze on multiple things and I myself eat a mostly raw/fruit-based diet, but giving cooked food to kids is not "abuse".
@@MdoubleHBxxx. What mental illness?
@@MdoubleHBxxx. And what type of mental illness would that be?
@@MdoubleHBxxx. I've tried to train my cats into hunting ants inside the house. Our oldest didn't understand the job at all, instead he sniffed the ant and then sat on it. 100% hunter. He is best friends with our rabbits, sometimes he gets scared when they move too fast. Then he just runs away and starts to make this sad yodeling sound. His favorite food is potato chips, he refuses to eat anything that isn't crunchy. My husband tried to feed him meat for years, but he isn't interested in it at all. He is 100% designed to be killing.
There is not enough evidence for me to risk my cats life. I am vegan but they are not, it is that simple.
You are not vegan. Your vegetables are full of pesticides to kill the small animals.
@jonahwhale9047 --- _The vegan movement has been against the use of pesticides since before their use was even widespread_ ---
Well, no vegans mention it and no vegans pratice it.
Go see Vegan Grains for example, he earns a lot of money per month shaking his ass and selling his wife on Onlyfans. What does he do with this money ? He buy toys, bikes, donuts but does not try to buy pesticides-free food.
So as a vegan cultist, you made a rookie mistake thinking I was a rookie.
To grow your vegetables you need to kill animals. And that's the contradiction, vegans hate. Because it shows how hypocritical they are.
You are not operating in the vegan ethic if you are going to be predatory on your cat's behalf, especially when there is some scientific evidence to show plant based diets are safe for them. Even if the evidence isn't 100% proof, and your cat's health would be less than optimal on plants, still not justifiable to anyone truly in favor of the vegan morale. Even if it were conclusive that plant based was quite unhealthy for cats, still not justifiable to kill other animals for them. Stop catering to your cats predatory lusts, ye weird carnivore enabling cat worshippers, and try actually being vegan.
Um, yes there is. The jury is in. Cats are obligate carnivores.
@@darkgalaxy5548 That's literally what I said. There's not enough evidence to support a vegan diet for cats.
All kibble isn’t great for cats. Fresh food is best.
Also, you have to take into acount the age of the cats. Most "vegan" cats were younger, compared to the meat eaters.
Without even getting into food, you would expect higher reports of vet visits, and clinical problems in older cats.
Good point, agree.
The big thing that concerns me about the data in that study is that they show no error bars. So they aren't even showing how variable the data is between the groups! I'm honestly surprised that paper with that data was published in the journal that published it. Even if they had taken the more obvious conclusion that just looking at the means suggest, that there isn't a difference and that vegan diets work for cats too, the variability is important to know. That said, the numbers of cats on the vegan diet side likely isn't enough to make a strong conclusion either way.
I don't think I have the abilities or capacity to determine whether keeping cats on a vegan diet is a good idea. For me - as long as Hannah Shaw - (AKA The Kitten Lady) who's a massive advocate for veganism (has been vegan for like 10+ years) and who knows more about cat welfare than anyone else I know - keeps feeding cats meat, I'm going to trust her that it's the way to go.
Meanwhile we should focus on trap-neuter-return programs to help lower the cat population.
I think she's more of an anti-vegan than vegan, especially with her reach, spreading misinformation and encouraging people to get cats and feed them other tortured animals.
@@nullethosechoes What misinformation exactly? The best thing to do for cats (and the animals they're being fed) is limiting their population which is best done through the before mentioned TNR programs which she supports and works on herself.
@@JudyCZ from what I've seen from her channel it is all about cats, how cute they are, how it's fun to have them, and so on. This encourages people to get more cats. She even has a video where she used the only source available that clumpsily said cats cannot be vegan (ASPCA) and used those words herself. There was no mention of it being possiblle, no mention of other animals being fed to cats, no nuance. It was propaganda which would have made the meat industry proud.
This seems very illogical to me. Exploiting and killing multiple animals for the sake of 1's "health"? I think the most moral action with cats is feed them plant based (making it healthy as possible), and deal with the consequences (which might be quite good!)
@@vgnwlfor best solution: DON'T HAVE A CAT!
Studies like this based on owner questionnaire are not conclusive. Proper research needs to be done.
I always wonder why no one ever factors the digestive tract in in this topic. Carnivores have a shorter digestive tract than herbivores and omnivores because no relevant digestion for energy supply happens in their hindgut. So, why should they eat a plant based diet??? On the other hand herbivores can't digest flesh efficiently because of their longer hindgut and it would start to rot inside the hindgut. Is it because our pets are fed processed food?
As what ive seen, vegan feeds are usually made with this kept in mind like using seitan/tofu/tvp etc instead of whole foods. which is kind of diff than carnist pet food that often contain rice as fillers
@@dundundun7215cats are obligate carnivores. You will kill your cat giving it a vegan diet no matter what supplements you give it. Literal animals abuse
The only problem with vegan diet for cats is hydration. There is only dry food available, at least in my area and since cats are reluctant to drink water, you have to soak the dry food REAL WELL, otherwise expect urinary issues.
That isn’t the only problem, where is your cat getting Taurine, necessary nutrients, and acids from? You may not see the difference today, but that isn’t safe for your cat.
I was hoping you would comment on this! I feel like the evidence isn't there yet, the flaws in the study are too big. The omission of duration is very significant and quite strange. But I do hope this opens the door to more research that will offer a firmer foundation for any conclusion and change the perception that feeding cats anything other than meat is immediately animal abuse. If a vegan cat food is shown to be safe in the long run I will certainly try it. My cat is a super picky eater so I don't know that she would even eat it, but I would certainly try to introduce it. She eats different feeds made from byproducts right now.
You touched on one of my concerns. My cats will only eat pate texture and only in seafood flavor. I haven't found anything like that in vegan versions. Plus, they're 15 and 17, one with hyperthyroid and only a few teeth left, so it's hard to want to experiment with their diets at this stage.
@@legohandslizmy cat is a 13yo ex street urchin who was caught at around 9. He is FIV positive and had to have his top teeth removed before I adopted him (I wasn't vegan yet). Yesterday he had to have his power teeth removed as well after 3 years with me and he has very similar taste in catfood yours does. I don't think I'd risk it because the risks of him getting less healthy are already so much higher,he needs a kidney friendly diet as it is, I don't know how to combine all of his needs and add vegan to that.
@@marlyd Yes, I totally understand. I think if I adopted again in the future, I'd try a vegan cat food to see if they'd eat it and did well on it, but for senior cats with existing health issues, it's not a black and white question. Do you follow Kitten Lady? She's vegan and still gives all of her fosters and her own cats regular cat food. Just one resource I consider a good reference for what's best for cats.
you suck, feed your cats meat
This is a topic I have never been able to make my mind up about, I’d love to read some studies but I don’t know that my knowledge is good enough to assess what studies are good or not, I think statistics like you described in this video go over my head. It’s nice to hear that vegan diets may not be bad for cats but with all the differing opinions out there it’s just incredibly difficult to not feel like no matter what decision I make as a cat guardian that decision is potentially wrong in some way. My other personal dilemma is two of my cats have health issues, one has an over active thyroid and the other has suspected feline hyperesthesia. I feel like there’s next to no chance of me finding a vet in my city that would know enough about vegan cat food and studies done on it and whether it’s ok for cats with over active thyroids, but yet I can’t guarantee a vegan diet would be bad for her either.
It’s definitely not something I’m against people trying if they are sensible people that can and will monitor their cats health. I think you have to also consider that some people may be afraid of being accused of neglect if they put cats on a vegan diet and I have seen a tech post that the vet she works with would report a cat guardian if they put their cat on a vegan diet. So there are some really challenging concerns.
Regarding the knowledge part on reading studies: I am an epidemiologist by training and I still sometimes have problems with interpreting studies outside my specific field (cancer prevention). Designing a study can be very complex and there are soooo many possibilities to make mistakes. So if you are going to read some studies on your own, I would at least advice you to get some knowledge on following three things: Study designs, statistical significance and most importantly sources of bias and confounding. Hope that helps :)
@@Sarinable1 that sounds like good advice. I find if a study does not have bias and is well done at the very least as a non expert you can often get the main point in the conclusion, so often I just skip to that section but the things you mention would help very much. It’s ironic that mention cancer, I spent a lot time in the last year trying to counter cancer treatment misinformation. I had a diagnosis of breast cancer, which has been treated, but because I searched some pathology information on the web my Facebook started putting cancer pages in my feed. I made the mistake of looking at comments section, and was angry to see the amount of pseudoscience recommended by others. So because I despise misinformation and especially despise misinformation that could kill people I started trying to counter these comments. This was made easier by the fact that there are credible groups that have made summaries of what is and isn’t legitimate treatments. I think this is where the difference is with trying to find the correct info on vegan diets for cats, it’s such a new area of study that there aren’t non biased pages summarizing the info for general people.
I am glad to at least see the attitudes about this topic softening. A year ago, the comment section under a video with this topic, would be filled with a lot of hot headed bigotry, accusing people feeding cats plant based food of animal abuse. Which is nonsense, as in most cases a vegan cat owner would have adopted a cat in need, so it is better off being fed a somewhat nutritionally inadequate diet than being killed in a shelter or left wandering the streets. And overall it does less harm to feed a cat plant based food even if the cat's health suffers somewhat, vs taking the lives of multiple other animals to feed the 1 cat. It was frustrating to no end how arrogant, illogical and vile people were being!
If the cat is healthy how can they report it because of the diet then? Sounds like that vet is judgmental
@@vgnwlfGet a bloodclat rabbit and stop forcing carnivores to live under your standard, if you leave a cat outside it’s not going to graze grass or look for a salad, it will go for small birds and mammals. If your morals are so far against the food manufacturing process (which is fine and suitable), find an ethical brand, find a bloodclat rabbit like I said, or all around just don’t get a pet and force your mental illness on it.
Honestly if you want vegan pets, get rabbits, or rats. Can cats be vegan? maybe, but we currently don't really know if it's healthy or not. Ans personally I wouldnt count cats that can hunt outside as vegan, my old cat got plenty of food but still are like half the mice she brought home.😮
Or Guinea pigs! I love my piggies
At this point I think the cost is the only issue. The companies can fortify their cat food, which should help them be healthy, and meet their dietary requirements. I just would rather pay maybe .25 of what they cost online and be able to pick it up at my local store.
Nirvana fallacy, I salute you!
@ That doesnt really apply here though. I didn't say that vegan catfood has to be perfect before we can safely feed it to our cats. We need to know whether a vegan diet is safe and healthy (e.g. at least as healthy as a decent meatbased catfood), especially longterm.
It's not about what one wants personally
Some people are in a situation where they rescued their cat off the street & gave them a happy home instead of life in a shelter, but it just so happens that they are so broke they can only afford basic cat food in the store, and “beans & rice” for themselves. Let’s remember that in the very definition of veganism it is stated “…as far as is possible and practicable…” We don’t need a few perfect vegans. We need an entire society just doing their best to minimize harm. I’ll be looking into this vegan cat food though & doing my best to make changes where I can.
I think feeding the cat beans and rice is the better option to basic store bought cat food. Less harm done overall, even if the cat's health is less than optimal, and like you said it's about people "doing their best to minimize harm". Thank you for looking into and considering it and agreeing to make changes where you can 💚
@jonahwhale9047 @vgnwlf Technically no, there is no necessity to own a cat, but then there is no necessity for anyone to own any pet. People love to keep and take care of pets because they love animals. You can’t just feed a cat rice and beans, they won’t want to eat it and will become malnourished, which is cruel, especially if they aren’t allowed outside to scavenge/hunt (and if they do go outside why bother trying to give them vegan food when they’ll hunt and eat meat/fish anyway?)
@jonahwhale9047I don’t give anything about your ethics, I will get more cats
The vegan food I now buy is £20 cheaper than what I purchased before
@jonahwhale9047You can’t spell assessment, you’re mentally ill.
I think they should focus on cats older than 10 years. Young felines in general would be fine, if taken care of.
It's just the fashion choices. Idk about this whole full cheeks means youre youthful thing but idk about women in general. But in MY opinion you don't look old mom
Thanks son!
I'm still pretty dubious about the reliability of vegan diets for cats, even if the study indirectly suggests parity in health outcomes between vegan and non-vegan diets. The fact that the duration is excluded from the methods is suspicious to say the least.
I would love nothing more than to feed my cats a vegan diet, but they do not find the foods palatable and had very unhappy cats and weight loss in already lean pets. I can't explain the ethics to them, they are simply looking for me to give them love, protection, and nutrition. So, I seek pet foods that are as far from factory-farmed as possible to balance my desire to live a vegan lifestyle and ensure my pets are optimally cared for. Perhaps if I had I introduced the vegan food when they were kittens, it may have been feasible, but I had only just become vegan in 2010 when two of my cats were born and I hadn't really considered it. The "baby" who is 8 years younger might have been an option, but let's face it, isolating foods from cats that self-regulate and you are not home for 10+ hours on weekdays is just not in the cards.
Cue the melodramatic hand-wringing from puritanical nitwits who will call me a "carnist" or a fake vegan... But I live my life in a way that limits animal suffering in nearly every way feasible in the Western world. I adopted my animals from shelters to give them loving homes and this is cognitive dissonance I am willing to accept.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. you're still here? 🤣🤣 GTFO with your copy paste bullshit.
@@somad6997 Your inflated sense of ego reads loud and clear, but I'll address your comments head-on.
Choice of Pets: Adopting a pet isn't a casual shopping trip where you pick the most convenient item. It's a deep commitment to a living being. Implying that I should've just handpicked a "vegan-compatible" pet is a gross oversimplification of the bond and responsibility involved.
Existence of Cats: Your value judgment surrounding the harm of a cat's existence is a problematic stance. Every animal has its place in the ecosystem, and cats are no exception. Denying their right to exist or be cared for based on their natural diet is ethically questionable.
Euthanization Argument: Your perspective on prioritizing certain animals based on diet compatibility is narrow-minded. All animals in shelters are vulnerable. By adopting any animal, I'm reducing the burden on these shelters and giving an animal a chance at a better life. It's not about ranking one animal over another; it's about making a positive difference.
Living Ethically: Lastly, your insinuation about my choices doesn't capture the full picture. I strive to live ethically in every aspect of my life, and that includes providing the best care for my pets. It's easy to judge from the outside, it's cheap easy and chicken shit to cast aspersions from the cheap seats on RUclips. I know for a fact that you don't live the perfect vegan life, no one does. So maybe sit down and work on yourself instead of virtue signaling to other.s.
Another bad take in the Unnatural Vegan comments section. Feel free to take the last word. You've been muted as I don't waste any more time than I need to with bad faith actors that seek to denegrate the community with which they largely agree rather than addressing systemic and commodified animal suffering on a large scale.
@EverythingIsPhotogenic if more vegans were like you, sane and rational, there would probably be a lot more of us
The evangelical fundamentalist vegans are the number one reason people aren't joining our ranks.
There are no perfect solutions.
I think in the case of still being dubious, at least reducing the amount of meat would already be good, like half vegan cat food and half normal
@@MdoubleHBxxx. i wanna drop you in the middle of the African savannah to see where do your “ethics” go
Saw our cat eating a mouse yesterday, when he'd finished with the mouse he was in to get his human provided food.
I think I need to learn about P values & watch this video again 😂 my Mum was a vetinary assistant though & has always strongly believed cats can't be vegan but dogs can
In fairness, sufficiently fortified cat food probably wasn't around at that time
@@MdoubleHBxxx. For once, you've actually made some semi coherent arguments
Nonsense. Cats are obligate carnivores. They are like lions, cheetahs, leopards - they are supposed to eat all carnivore.
If you think that a domesticated cat is the same as a lion I don’t know what to tell you. If cats were like lions they wouldn’t be surviving off of conventional cat food and food they find in the garbage. They are not like lions, cheetahs or leopards.
Cats were domesticated. While they are carnivores and have carnivorous tendencies, all of their nutritional needs can be met without meat. Overall, it seems that cats can be vegan in *general*. It is a really lazy argument to just say “they are carnivores, period.” When we have the ability to reduce harm, we should reduce it.
Look up "Fascinating true story about the famous little Tyke". It's not the ingredients like meat that are important, but the nutrients.
I wish people would stop parroting this lame BS catering to carnivorism, and just feed the cats the most nutritionally sound plant food possible, and deal with the consequences. Such a simple solution vegans have been employing for years, which causes the least harm practical and possible. Use your noggin people, stop letting others think for you.
@@TUG657 You're right in that they are not like lions, cheetahs or leopards. They are like African Wild Cats, which aren't _that_ far off genetically from house cats...and are _also_ obligate carnivores.
@@TUG657Synthetic taurine is toxic and not easily digestible. Natural taurine and B12 comes from meat
To the point of "cats who have a regular source of food rarely eat what they hunt": I guess no one explained that to my former cats^^ They were even picky: birds are food but mice are food depending on what kind of mice they are. The ones with the dark stripe are non-food apparently.
And yes, my cats had dry food and wet food, different types/brands of food, cat milk, snacks, special cat grass, all of it.
They hunted because they wanted/out of instinct, not because they were starving.
How do I know it was instinct? Because one of my cats was found when she was
They know what they want, hunting really is in their genes
It is a pity that people feel the need to oversell the vegan diet. Cats on a vegan diet being just as healthy as cats eating meat would have been a great outcome of this study.
Now they sow doubt where there would have been none.
I would consider it a win that they are just as healthy on a vegan diet. I WOULD GUESS that their thought process is that 'then why would I go out of my way to do that when I can feed them a meat based diet...'
@@MdoubleHBxxx. you’re delusional
To me when it comes to cats it's not just about them being as healthy. Hunting is such a huge part of a cats life, I would be concerned how it would affect a cat mentally to never be allowed to eat meat.
@teijaflink2226 If a cat would never be allowed to hunt, you mean?
I am not familiar with all the toys for cats that are available, but are there not some with which you can simulate the act of hunting?
@@teijaflink2226 (please not that this is all my experience) Indoor cats will likely never hunt to any real degree. But you are never going to stop an outdoor cat from it. It just won't be a predominant part of the cats diet.
Also, regardless of diet, a lot of cats don't actually eat what they catch assuming they have enough to eat.
If we happen to find that cats can acutally eat vegan pet food, what would "obligate carnivore" mean anymore?
Vegans are so disconnected from nature it’s crazy
It’s an arbitrary term for domesticated animals IMO. If more and more studies show that cats can be healthy on a vegan diet, I suppose it doesn’t make cats obligate carnivores. But yet again, feeding cats vegan is “unnatural” (technically even conventional cat food is “unnatural” since it has less than 70% meat).
Unlike omnivores they still need nutrients that are only found in meat naturally. They can only "be vegan" if it's synthetically created and supplemented in their diet.
It is not only taurine. Obligate carnivores need a different amino acid composition than omnivores and herbivores. The composition of amino acids in the food influences the pH of the urine. Carnivore urine is slightly acidic, omnivore urine more neutral, herbivore urine slightly alkaline. The wrong pH of the urine for the species can lead to kidney and bladder stones. The amino acid composition can be formulated but you need first to know the nutritional requirement (e.g. is it a carnivore or a herbivore?).
Also, cats (and other obligate carnivores) often get problems when fed carbohydrates long-term.
@jonahwhale9047 Chronic kidney disease is a disease of old age in cats, kidney are not. Kidney stones are due to alkaline pH in cats which is caused by the wrong amino acid composition in their food since they are obligate carnivores.
Of course, the amino acid composition in vegan cat food can be adjusted to fit cat requirements. That does not change the fact that they are obligate carnivores, just like humans are omnivores, but can live healthily on a vegan diet if they add a few supplements.
Regular non-vegan cat food is often grain-based and not balanced. I completely agree.
Right now I'm still skeptical, not from a "cats cant be vegan" standpoint but from a quality control one. Until there is vegan cat from a company with good standards, I probably will be. However, Bond Pet Foods, a start up trying to make pet food with cultured meat, actually has a partnership with Hills Science Diet. So, if Bond ever comes to maket and I can afford it, I'll probably get it for my cat.
cats aren’t herbivores … Jesus Christ
Professor Andrew knight has a video list of about 30 videos - if you have cats or dogs I’d recommend you sit through them and then you’ll learn so much
I listened on my commutes to work
There is no such thing as a vegan cat. If a cat had a choice they would always choose meat over plant matter.
So would some humans but if I could, I would forbid them to eat flesh.
If there's any mice about, or rather if there aren't any mice about, your cat is not vegan.
Want a vegan pet? Don't get a cat, they are obligated carnivores. You're likely causing more harm to the animals doing this. I mean this is like trying to feed a (grass eating) cow a meat only diet this would likely lead to the animals not living very long..
There’s a brand called Noochies which is mostly focused on dog food but has cat snacks.
As one may infer, it’s a nutritional yeast based food (a proprietary one). It does seem dog food is their main thing but perhaps cat food is a coking down the line.
I do think cultivated meat will be the only thing to upend most people feeling uncomfortable giving cats a vegan diet.
Dogs are entirely different and I think they are much easier to keep healthy on a vegan diet that considers all their nutritional needs.
When you said a vegan who’s cat isn’t doing well on a vegan diet may not tell that to people so that they also feed their cat a vegan diet, then that’s kind of the other side of the same unethical coin. You’d be willing to cause suffering to your own cat and others for the sake of other animals.
If it’s a strong position to not feed a cat a vegan diet then you have 2 options…
Don’t take in a cat
Have a cat that is outdoor primarily with some supplemental feed made of animal byproducts. Although then you would have to contend with the fact that cats, especially in urban areas, have been a large contributor to the deaths of birds
Of course, it is natural for a cat to hunt and in nature this fine. The only aspect of this that is unethical is that the vast number of cats (stray and not) are because of human’s breeding them. So again, it comes back to us.
I have a cat. I’m vegan. I don’t feed him vegan. It isn’t practicable at this time. The food is expensive. I choose byproduct based food. This cat came into my life before I was vegan. After he dies, I will not take in another cat.
As for dogs, I think this will be different. There are also plenty of other animals raised in captivity that are totally/predominantly herbivorous so if that’s an option to adopt I would look into that.
No matter what conclusion this comes to, I'm bringing popcorn for the comments.
Petcurean has some vegan options. I don't feed my dog or cat a vegan diet, but Petcurean is a fabulous brand that does a ton of research and has a wide variety of food options. I have tried the vegan kibbles just to see if my dog would eat them, and unfortunately while she liked it just fine, it caused really bad eye goop for her (which is something a variety of foods can cause for her).
As a stats major, stats seems to be both universally required in nearly every field and also universally misunderstood in every field. I think the most valuable part of actually majoring in statistics is learning to identify misrepresented and improperly applied results and methods. It’s insane how easy it is to misrepresent results with clever framing
You seem to be a nit example of the widespread phenomenon known as grade inflation or grading leniency.
Now if you could only easily teach the rest of us to understand statistics properly.
@MdoubleHBxxx. You missed a few comments...
You posted your same false statement to almost comment, but you missed a few. Come on, you gotta paste it to all the comments....that makes it true?
@@langreeves6419 lol, I always find it odd that her pic looks like a fried egg 🤣
@@MdoubleHBxxx. LOL, it was the ability to COOK FOOD that lead our advancements... Seriously, look it up.
UTIs are prevalent in male cats regardless of diet.
Do urine pH tests on every male, cat every month
The pH meter is only a tenner and crystals in urine can be painful
@jonahwhale9047 its certainly possible. Also related to dry food (regardless of whether the food is meat or vegan)
Since male cats urethra is much smaller than female cats they are more prone to UTIs and crystals - so really I wish this knowledge was more widespread and owners of male cats would do the urine pH testing
Crystals so painful for cats and can be fatal- yet can be picked up early with the pH and resolved with a few pills
Great! So grateful to have a Vegan advocate offer up a no non-sense, intelligent debate about this "HOT" topic... I am Vegan but my cats are not and that is how it will stay as long as there is not more substantial research that a Vegan diet can be an actuallly viable option and not endanger my cats health 🙀 I have spoken to so many professionals in this scace and 99% of them agree that feeding plants to cats is not a safe option and would require constant monitoring, blood tests and scrutiny to ensure your cat doesn't develop Cardiomyapathy or other deadly illnesses😿
Do they need constant blood tests and scans, even if they are fed veterinary approved kibble from pet food manufacturers? I doubt that. Diseases like cardiomyapathy may come from lack of taurine, but also non-diet related reasons. I'm sceptical of random veterinarians who are usually not vegan, and probably only relies on what they learned in their education many years ago for their conclusion about feeding cats a vegan diet. They may even believe that humans cannot be vegan. They may google what ACPCA says about vegan cats, and say it can't be done, and ACPCA gives absolutely no reason for it.
As for ethics, many animals that are fed to the cat, so really, if you don't even want to risk the cat suffering from a plant exclusive diet, why not just put the cat to sleep instead? The other animals will be slaughtered otherwise in much more brutal ways.
Non issue. Cats are carnivores and were evolutionary selected to eat meat. It is the same issue as adding meat derivative to a cows diet. Just because it is possible it doesn’t mean that is right. Don’t want to feed meat to a cat then dont have one.
Some statisticians also now are "just report the actual p. Instead of 'below x'"
This because when p values were made, you had to calculate by hand. You had a table of what your z value could be depending on factors.
Now you calculate the actual p value in a program like excel
My cat isn't vegan, but I like adding the few veggies cat's can digest & she had a snack based on insect protein today. Honestly, even if I fed her a plantbased diets she would never be close to vegan as she enjoys killing mice 🐭
My cat was 10 when she started living with me btw!
''my cat is not vegan '' then you are not vegan
@@BornAgainVegan-gp4iw
Abusing their cat with a diet that lacks little evidence is not vegan. By definition, veganism is about practability, so you can take your judgement away.
@@setitheredcap2677it is practical to euthanize which would be a better outcome than making sacrifices for cats
@@BornAgainVegan-gp4iwhey spoiler. Some vegans have non vegan partners they share a table with and they may even buy their partners some normal cheese!
Or has their kids not be vegan!
@dutchik5107 again then they are not really vegan 😒
I can't find your video on Evolution Pet Foods. I just ordered a case of canned food literally hours ago. I consulted with Dr. May and she recommended it. Please let me know what is wrong with it? I don't want to harm my little kitten or cat. Please respond asap. TIA
Feed your cat meat
I think it really is just for each their own plus how much you actually have to pay. With the UTIs, that is most likely due to feeding dry food. It is incredibly common for cats who eat kibble to get UTIs. For me, I honestly had to switch my cat to more meat diet as he is almost a senior and does not absorb protein as much as he used to
@jonahwhale9047 i have been laughing for 20 mins about this stupid comment
@jonahwhale9047 lmao my cat literally wasting away is not a natural death tho? Like you are implying that is natural to allow my cat to waste away eating non-animal cat food to the point he is only skin and bones is natural is literally the most unnatural thing for a cat hence them wasting away lol. This is such a silly argument especially if you are basing it off of what is “natural” and I honestly even question the ethical part because my cat literally exists and has lived with me his whole life for almost 10 years so im confused what natural ethical things you actually think are reasonable to do with a cat that already exists and has been living in doors their whole life?? Don’t even get me started about the birds when my cat has literally only been outside supervised. Like the implication that it is better to starve my cat and have him painfully die from not getting nutrients or even if ur implying he should be put down or let out in the wild (which would literally be the natural thing) which would make him contribute to killing the birds, all so one cat cannot consume the pet food can that is already on the shelf is so silly to me. I understand if you want to have an argument about the ethics of owning a carnivorous animal but like it seems weirdly focused on cats eating meat which I don’t really understand how we are treating animals ethically when we are literally trying to force one to be a vegan or imply they should die for what is NATURAL for them 😐.
@jonahwhale9047 I'm a bit confused about how feeding my older cat a diet with more protein, which is essential for his well-being, relates to UTIs. The reason I mentioned UTIs is to highlight that dry cat food is strongly associated with these issues. It seems a bit strange to bring up UTIs in the context of "wild" cats when there's no comparison to the dry food in their diet.
To clarify, cats are naturally prone to UTIs because they originated from dry desert environments. This evolutionary background has adapted them to obtain a significant portion of their hydration from their prey. In the wild, feral and wild cats would be hunting, and their diet would be rich in moisture. Cats have a lower thirst drive, stemming from their origins in these arid places. This is why domesticated cats often suffer from UTIs because they don't naturally drink enough water to meet their hydration needs.
In fact, high-protein wet cat food is often marketed as having high moisture content for this very reason.
My point is that your idea of what's "natural" for cats seems a bit off, especially given the strong stance you've taken. Life isn't a Disney movie, and the cats you refer to as "in the wild" are either strays or feral cats, not "wild cats." The argument that feral cats only live 2-5 years is quite debatable, and some studies suggest they can live 7-10 years. Feral cats that come from generations of feral cats develop adaptations to survive in urban areas and are similar in many ways to other wild animals. In captivity, they often fare worse than common domesticated cats.
Regarding the ethics of feeding cats vegan diets, I won't claim to have all the answers, but the estimate that 300 animals a year are killed for every 90kg of pet food sounds dubious. The number of animals used to produce pet food varies significantly based on factors like the type of pet food, ingredient quality, and the specific product (e.g., kibble, treats, pate). We should also remember that most cat food contains a significant amount of non-animal ingredients.
Ethically, I have to question whether it's realistic, given the facts about what's essential for maintaining a cat's health naturally. It seems a bit contradictory to advocate for animal rights and welfare but then suggest that we force a naturally carnivorous animal to go vegan, especially when it can lead to preventable health issues like UTIs. It's just odd to me to imply that you're okay with an animal suffering from the pain of a UTI and a potentially agonizing death because their bladder ruptured, all for something that can be avoided, just because you want to impose a vegan diet on an animal that's naturally a carnivore.
@jonahwhale9047cats absolutely need meat. You can pontificate the ethics of having a carnivore pet but do not pretend that starving an animal is somehow the ethical thing to do. Also most pet food is made of scraps of the meat industry waste, not its own animal slaughter industry. Cats live so short inthe wild because they get killed and encounter disease. Moreover, since plant agriculture also kills animals, vegan cat food would still have animal deaths contributing to its production.
Since vegan diet for cats is a somewhat newer technology, wouldn't you have to account for true believers of the diet under reporting signs of ill health by taking away the pet owner factor? Randomly selecting a group of cats into 2 diet groups and otherwise taking care of them and evaluating them in a double blind/similar way.
Yes! I also find it odd there is no mention about AGE or DRY FOOD VS WET FOOD. I say this to say 1) with age cats need different nutrients for example older cats require more protein than younger cats. 2) dry food to me is one of the biggest factors in cat UTIs. Cats do not drink water nearly as much as they should. Wet food is great because if can accommodate to an extent for this (but still please continue to encourage your cats to drink water in addition to wet food). All and all I think at this point we have VERY little studies in how vegan diets for cats work. I honestly think what makes more sense to focus on as vegans is getting animals like rabbits or rats or hamsters instead of an animal that is considered a carnivore
It doesn’t need to go that far. Everyone with an ounce of a brain knows cats can’t be vegan. All felines are obligated to carnivores
Vegans need studies for everything, truth is simple
What is a cat? A carnivore
What should it eat? Meat
That simple, no paid studies or “soyence” needed
Appeal to nature fallacy. If a food meets all the nutritional requirements, I don't see the issue.
@@elise3455
Exactly
Vegans need studies for everything, the truth is simple:
A rescued cat is better off having less than optimal health on a plant based diet over the course of their life (even if shorter than ideal) living in a loving comfortable home, than suffer the far worse alternative fates available to it; and it isnt justifiable to kill multiple animals and financially support the meat industry on behalf of a single cat; so stop the BS and just feed the cat plants. 😤
@@elise3455Which of these foods have Taurine and Meat specific acids and nutrients needed for longterm good eyesight, liver health, and multiple organ functions.
@@oj397my cat eats some rice,cake,bread and chips,biscuits but her main food is meat and bonemarrow,fish. She is healthy and very active just a bit overweight from the carbs and little sugar. I seen sugar free cake and biscuit recipe for cats which are mixed with iodine salts instead of sugar and butter,talo instead of seedoils
How did that vague and misleading statistical analysis get past peer review?
Because the reviewers knew more about p-values and statistical significance than you.
@I like your responses to these half witted goons masquerading as "vegan". 👍
Idk why The System makes it seem like making homemade petfood is like rocket science. You just have to do some basic math and some weighing. The most inconvenient part is finding a butcher who can sell you all parts of an animal, not just the muscle meat. This is how I feed my dog.
I have 2 dogs who have been fed mostly plant based for almost a decade and are in great health compared to their canine peers the same age. They have never had a single health problem, have shiny coats, youthful energy, etc. Please stop needlessly hurting and exploiting other animals on behalf of your dogs.
@@vgnwlf Very cool, my dog is in great health eating poultries and fishes and beeves. He eats a couple veggies too, I follow the ‘BARF’ model. I wouldn’t feed processed corn or soy to myself and I wouldn’t feed it to my dog. My dog’s breed doesn’t do well with legumes, so those are crossed off the list too. Vegans are funny
@@vgnwlfmost relight dog foods is high in grain and Carbs just feed dogs raw meat like mines
@@D0B3RW0M4Nexactly most dogs are sick from corn and other garbage in their foods
My dogs eat only raw meats and blueberry’s
I feed my cats Benovo wet . At first they didn’t like it but I used flavour enhancers - spirulina and nooch.
I feed Benovo dry but as treats not as a food.
I spoke to professor Andrew knight about his latest study and he really wants to do blood tests etc but the limitation was money.
Anyone have a research grant to send him?
WHY would you even think of feeding ANY carnivore a vegetarian or God forbid a vegan diet. It's a crime to impose your beliefs on your pets. Wrong on all levels.
So as to not hurt animals.
@jonahwhale9047 I am a White guy and my environmental footprint is very small, so if the cat had the same as me, then it's not a big deal.
@@Siegfried5846 you do know what goes on in the wild?
@@stevenspeakman5363 Horrible things. It is natural for human beings to wipe out all the men of the neighbouring tribe and take the women as sex slaves. This has happened all throughout our history and will keep happening until we are no more. But does that mean that it is *good?* Surely it isn't. So what is natural is not always good.
If you think it is ok to have vegan cats then you should also protest against sharks eating habits
As someone that is an academic researcher, anytime a study says self reported from whatever the group is that is not a strong study of any sort of Legitimate evidence. Because it’s plagued with the bias of the owners and if you’re even considering giving your cat a vegan diet you can already kind of tell what sort of bias exists there
A more legitimate study would probably be best with middle-aged cats and consistent blood and physical examination monitoring
If you don't have evidence to the contrary, and insist on throwing out all evidence that exists because you don't like it (because you're clearly biased), then the best you can say is "I don't know".
What is so weird about vegan cat food is it says "not tested on animals" on the packet. But I know that if something I use to feed my cat is not tested, then that makes my cat the experiment. This is one of the only exceptions where I would actually rather see animal testing. I thiink about it as being potentially bad for a few cats who are tested, but it's for the greater good of the larger population of cats in the world. Why would I rather no experiments be conducted and intead all cats in the world just be one big, potentially cruel experiment?
You want to abuse and kill other cats and animals on behalf of your cat's optimal health? Wow, some of you people confound me. What if you were the lab animal?
If you’re fighting animal cruelty by not providing your animal the best avenue for the nutrition, acids, taurine it needs, then guess what? You’re participating directly in animal cruelty. Get. A. Rabbit.
If you want a vegan pet, just get a known herbivorous pet.
Yeah, by vegans are mentally ill so they always need to do weird things.
Pets are family members - you can't just swap the one who already loves you for another of a different species because you don't like the idea of a plant-based commercial pet food (which contains the same nutrients as the meat-based packaged food). Only a non-vegan could be OK with that attitude.
@@fuseconned3988Then don’t try to stop animal cruelty with animal cruelty against said family member slowly destroying their eyesight, energy, kidneys, and other bodily functions.
@@fuseconned3988you probably killed your cat because you imposed your selfish beliefs on an animals that requires meat. I hope you feel all the guilt for the suffering you caused your cat
@@fuseconned3988you’re disgusting
Maybe my cat was strange, but he had always eaten what he had hunted. (Was that sentence correct? I'm not a native speaker)
@jonahwhale9047Man shut up, have you owned a cat and let it outside? Your cat never returned to you with a bird, mouse, snake after a long day? Then again the fact that you’re setting your cat up for kidney failure and can’t spell you’re probably a Hermit and force your cat inside by you all day.
since domestic animals are different than their wild counterparts. as vegans, any "animal testing" is frowned upon, right? even trying out different plant based diets for cats. do I think cats can digest some carbs? sure. but...here we go...maybe lab grown meat should be used to feed our pets?! just a thought.
There are companies trying to develop such things, various methods, there was a company I recall off the top of my head exploring a “meat” that could be produced via some enzyme produced via yeast, and there are some companies doing cell line/cloned meat that do have the goal of producing pet food.
@@nicolesapphire3696 this is why I love the comment section! :) thank you.
@@Amyjwashere “lab grown meat for animals” Jesus Christ vegans are SO DISCONNECTED from nature
Veganism is a mental illness
This is a really good channel
I feel like the western would gets more ridiculous every year
Everyday I wake up I wish it was the 60s
@@wolfpackwarriors it’s just ridiculous these days
Vegan cats
Gender changes
Unrecognisable city’s
It feels odd
I'm a psych student that did a lot of stats courses, let me try to explain the statistics, in case anyone's interested.
p-value: Does the observed "difference" qualify being called different?
Imagine a bunch of coloured balls in a bag and you have to pick out red balls with a red-ball seeking tool to check if it actually works. If p=0.05, there is a 5% chance that you can pick only the red balls by your bare hands (i.e. by chance) without the help of the tool. If p=0.01, there's a 1% chance.
Abiding to either p
So in this study they dont follow the cats for their entire lives and they dont do any bloodwork? Im not doing experiments on my cat...
From now on, you'll feed your cat nothing but living birds, rodents, insects, frogs and lizards, as nature intended. And of course, never neuter or splay your cat, that’s also an experiment.
@its not expiremental though, its been well documented the long term effects of spay and neutur.
@ ---- _From now on, you'll feed your cat nothing but living birds, rodents, insects, frogs and lizards, as nature intended. And of course, never neuter or splay your cat, that’s also an experiment._ ----
Being alive or dead doesn't change the nature of the food. Giving grass to your cat does change something.
@ .. and you run around naked, eating only fruit and herbs.. Garden of Eden style.. of course.🙄
Absolutely right!👍My😺😸are going to have a fried chicken treat for lunch. They bring me mice but I've yet to taste one.
[ Fun fact: Within Adventist Health Study 2, folk assigned to the "Vegan" category consumed a daily avge of 3.1g of animal protein; equivalent to a quarter-pounder cheeseburger, every 10 days.🤗😄🤣]
Nah…
What plant foods does yours cats love? Mine like olives, chestnuts (room temperature), rice, oats, avocado, cantaloupe so far.
I don't have cats, but my 2 chihuahuas love broccoli, avocados, melons, apples, bananas, berries, kale ribs, zucchini, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, beans, oats, nut butters, etc (pretty much everything I eat, both cooked and raw) as well as the small serving of fortified dry vegan dog food they get in the morning. I've had them nearly 10 years and they are in wonderful health, and look half the age of other dogs the same age.
Sweetcorn
Ethically, it's a no-brainer. Only adopt a cat from a shelter, get them desexed, keep them indoors, and feed them the least amount of animal product possible to keep them reasonably healthy.
Mutilating a cat reproduce organs is not vegan. If vegans think it is ok, then it is ok for me to eat meat. Forcing your cat to stay in your house, is enslavement.
How would you like it if some giant kept you caged in a small building for your ENTIRE life? it is cruel and unusual to keep a cat inside.
"Desexing" non-human animals should be considered animal abuse. It’d be certainly considered abuse were it performed on humans.
@@ReallyOrganic it's far more cruel to unleash a violent predator on defenceless birds and small mammals every night
@ it's abuse to call someone racist and homophobic slurs but it's not abuse to call a dog names, so the fact that if you did something to a human it would be abuse is irrelevant. Animals don't make a conscious choice to start a family and don't 'consent' to getting pregnant and having babies. As long as shelters are overflowing with unwanted cats and dogs, to the point where they are forced to euthanise hundreds of thousands of healthy animals every year, it's completely unethical to breed more into existence when there aren't enough homes for them.
I wonder if vegans don't just take better care of their pets, leading to a better health outcome overall.
Thanks you for bringing this up. I think every vegan should be talking about this. I have two healthy vegan cats myself, and if every vegan feeds their cat vegan cat food that would save millions of animals. Without convincing a single carnist to go vegan. It's definitely a very important topic 💚💪
How is it vegan to own pets let alone feed them a diet outside their evolutionary limits? Checkmate vegtard
Yay! I'm always so happy to hear of healthy vegan cats ☺️ If it were to become scientifically accepted and mainstream knowledge that cats can thrive on a plant based diet, even if supplemented, it would do a lot of good for the vegan movement! Hopefully more convincing studies come out, even though personally I am convinced of it's viability already, (nor would I be able to validate exploiting and killing multiple other animals on behalf of 1 pet's health.)
@@vgnwlf For sure. I mean it is scientifically accepted given all of the several research papers on it show it's no less healthier than regular vegan cat food and likely healthier. But yeah, it just needs to be more ubiquitous. However, it doesn't even matter much if non-vegans know as they probably wouldn't accept it either way. It's likely a lot more important for vegans for know about it
@jonahwhale9047 No , cat owners in general aren't likely to go vegan. But many vegans hold this attitude about feeding cats plant based being "abuse". So it would be quite healthy for that to change. Someone already vegan isn't likely to take in a cat unless it's a rescue, I would hope. And in the case of a rescue feeding them plant based food is the only viable option in harmony with the vegan ethic. Overall I agree that pet ownership in general isn't vegan, but taking care of abandoned animals in need is. I realized this when I was a kid and bought a lizard from the store, and through the years of owning him I could tell he just desperately wanted to be free. I vowed to never buy an animal again, the whole concept of animals for sale is slavery after all. But I have ended up with other abandoned animals falling in my lap, and if cats can thrive on a supplemented plant based diet any animal likely could. I sense some people desperately cling to the "don't abuse obligate carnivores by feeding them plants" idea in order to discredit veganism overall, that's why discrediting that BS idea would be good for the vegan movement.
If you feel the need to feed your cat a vegan diet, and strip them from the natural diet and joy of life, YOU are part of the problem.
Those unholy righteous vegans
Less than a minute in, I want to add that like some dog breeds, some cats do really well plant-based while others do poorly. It really depends on the individual.
My cats (indoor cats) love hummus and even eat bits of my salad, so I thought they might enjoy vegan cat kibble and they eat it just the same as the non (theytore up the nice resealable bag, so I have to hide it from them in a top kitchen cabinet). They are not "vegan cats" since it is very difficult to get wet food for them and it's the only way they will take medications if needed. 🤷♀️ For orange male tabbys, they seem to need special diets (meat based) and will still develop crystals on rare occasions. Your vet should STILL do PH urine checks no matter what your cats are eating.
You should do urine pH tests - the pH metre is only a tenner. For every male cat every month regardless of diet
Even if a vegan diet would be healthy for a cat, is it right to make a cat eat a vegan diet? They can´t choose that lifestyle and they are naturally predators who eat meat. It just seems wrong to me to make that decision for my cat.
Even if you think that is correct, could feeding the cat a vegan diet not be "the lesser of two evils"?
I'll try to explain what I mean:
You take full responsibility for the wellbeing of the cat, but I don't see you taking full responsibility for what you pay someone else to do when you buy meat for the cat. If you buy commercial cat food you can be certain that the animals had a horrible life and got killed at tiny fraction of their lifespan. And you would be paying for a lot of them having that experience over the lifetime of the cat. Even if you pay the nicest farm ever, the animals will still be killed at a fraction of their lifespan.
Imagine standing in front of a rabbit and a cat and only one of them can survive and live happily together with you as their caretaker while the other will be killed by you. Does their happiness not count the same? What you are doing when you pay for the non vegan cat food is always choosing to kill rabbits, chickens, pigs, etc again and again and again in a cycle of unfairly choosing one animal over the other that only ends once the cat dies.
To make it clear, the cat is not to blame and her happiness counts just as much. The cat did not choose to be born into its carnivorous body. But you are the one making the unfair choices.
In my opinion vegan cat food at this point in time is not the purely good thing, but a much better compromise to the alternative that takes all the involved animals into consideration. Also, if you are uncomfortable with vegan cat food, why not give them freegan meat?
According to this logic cats also don’t choose to be pets, they don’t choose to eat conventional cat food (which contains a lot of plants).
Choosing for others is just an inherent part of life-it’s the only way we can function as a society in a more moral and un-chaotic way.
It sounds like you're parroting the BS that's been pushed for years by cat worshipping fake-ass vegans, and anti-vegan propaganda pushers. Do the right thing, which would be doing the least harm possible and practical, and feed the darn cats PLANTS.
31% of animal agriculture is for pet food. 31%! Is that right?
@@TUG657Actually cats are the only animal that CHOSE to be domesticated because they saw humans as a better and easier food source unlike livestock or say dogs which were intentionally sought out and bred to be domesticated. So your argument doesn’t make sense.
I dont even know of any US-made vegan cat food.
They’re literally carnivorous, with exception of grass sometimes to settle their stomachs but 👍
It's much different when humans are in control of their diet, because we have science and the ability to extract nutrients they need.
Your channel is incredibly underrated! This was great
Lol she’s been around a while you’ve gotta check out all her stuff
All I know is reasons why it cannot work... which had ALL come from the 1980's. So, assuming things have changed during the past 37 years or so, perhaps today it already IS possible to feed Cats Vegan. Perhaps a way HAS been found, to successfully incorporate ALL essential nutrients into a Vegan Cat food. If Yes, it most certainly IS Grand.
Would Love it if You will make a follow-up vid, extensively exploring whether or not current Vegan (and non-Vegan) Cat food options do actually meet Cats' nutritional requirements.
However: if a Cat goes outside, they will hunt - and, if they lack certain nutrients on their daily routine diet, they shall eat their prey, definitely. As THEY ARE CATS. Not humans.
People have been keeping healthy vegan cats for a long ass time, the science is only beginning to reflect that fact. Anyway, I am very unimpressed with people spoiling their cats and killing other animals on behalf of their "health". Reaks of arrogance and moral lameness. Maybe we can't stop cats being predators outside, but we can refuse to be predators ourselves on their behalf. If they want loving owners who provide them with nice places to live they can learn to tolerate properly fortified plant based food. Please stop catering to their carnivorous and predatory behavior, you are their caretaker but not their slave. And their health possibly being a little less than optimal does not justify murdering many other animals on their behalf and financially supporting exploitation and slaughter in the marketplace.
@@vgnwlf And THIS comment, Meine Dammen und Herren, is a PERFECT example to a *revoltingly hateful and alarmingly fanatic person, who should be barred from **_EVER_** belonging to ANY Cat.*
The actual scientific fact is that, at least predating properly enriched and fortified plant-based Cat-foods, Cats who did not eat meat went blind. *Cats are not humans. We have a choice, and can easily go Vegan; Cats cannot. They are carnivorous by Nature.*
I have known *SICK people like you,* creature. And *ONLY* because of THEM, because if people who went *as low as to call for **_a complete genocide of all Cats_** if they cannot be veganized,* that it had taken me AN EXTRA ELEVEN YEARS to go Vegan myself (2015, instead of 2004...😰), simply since they had made Vegans seem like a bunch of mentally distorted madmen, instead of the Morally Superior Beauties, which I *now* know us Vegans to TRULY be.
Cats are carnivores though. Biology, their digestive tracts are set up for meat. There's tons of studies that show humans who are on a vegan diet have less B-12, less Taurine, and less better absorbable iron. I'm curious what is being put in place of meat. Legumes, soy, and white potatoes can cause issues for cats long term. Meat is the best source for cats. There's 41 essential vitamins and minerals needed for cats to thrive. Thus far kibble I've looked at have questionable ingredients. I'd also like to know what type of food was given that was "meat based" There's a lot of poor quality brands out there.
@@meganc7911 Of course, however the question is, is it now possible, to create a "Vegan meat" for Cats, which shall include all necessary ingredients.
I believe that, in a day when 3D Printers work wonders with Vegan "meat" for humans, the solution for a satisfactory and nutritionally appropriate Vegan Cat food is obtainable.
If a study was saying that cutting the head of your cat was good for the cat, the vegans would do it. Without studies, how the vegans would be able to live ?
Lol, it's kinda true! My fellow vegans do bazaarly unethical things in the name of "science". The hooplah over "obligate carnivores" and the "optimal health" of house cats a clear example.
So... You're saying that vegans like to base their decisions on real evidence rather than just making things up? That's actually quite a compliment! 😊
@@fuseconned3988 ---- _So... You're saying that vegans like to base their decisions on real evidence rather than just making things up? That's actually quite a compliment!_ 😊 ---
Sure, and if a study says you have to cut your cat's head to be healthy, you would do it.
@@fuseconned3988The “evidence” was a faulty study with multiple undocumented variables of an unknown sample size with limited resources to run it in the first place. I mean if I tell you running of a cliff solves depression and I put a fancy chart up showing people who have done it and have been happy, would you just take my word for it no further inquiries? If so you’re a dunce.
@@oj397 Trust me, sweetie, nobody is taking your word for anything.
First of all a "disclaimer" I'm not vegan, though I don't eat a lot of meat normally once or twice a week, but not here to crap on Veganism/Vegan cats just to give my thoughts.
Personally I think its possible to have a cat on a well produced vegan diet. But personally I don't think it's a question on if you can have a cat vegan on a highly processed, artificial food but if you should (not hypocritical as i despise kibble too).
To me we are choosing to keep these animals so its our responsibility to feed then what they are made to eat not what they can eat (with some mild caveats that I'll address later).
The big problem I see with these studies alot with vegan vs none vegan cats in addition to some of the points made in the video is that they're comparing a better quality but still unnatural food, being the vegan one as typically they're still better quality, to a down right horrible food (being the cr*p they put into kibbles & wet foods).
Will say I do think a wet food is better then a kibble in a lot of ways but still have a lot if short comings.
Its the effect that you see people have when they go on unsustainable but cleaner diets (ie the raw fruit diet, carnivore etc). Once accustomed to it they start to feel amazing and noticed improved health, because they do.
But not because the diet is good for them but because its a lot cleaner then the processed stuff they've been eating previously.
After enough time most switch to a more sustainable diet because they realise its short comings or stuck with it because they're in denial and their health suffers (can literally see it when you look at these people).
Thats effectively what they're doing in these studies. Comparing before when the animal was on a poor quality food to a higher quality food (as generally vegan animal diets do pay a bit/lot more attention due to who is their customer base is as they're more likely to actually pay attention to this) and then draw the conclusion that vegan is better then meat for these animals.
Me personally I feed my cat raw (various body parts and whole small animals plus some plant matter). Same for my dog he's on raw with a mix of animal parts, whole animals and plant matter.
Not the premade diets but done myself. Will say I feel confident in my knowledge on how to provide a balanced over time raw diet for them from my previous experience working on a carnivore section at a large zoo with then making some adjustments, ie adding more plant matter to my dogs diet compared to how the wolves were fed as its a dog not a wolf.
Even with my other animals I give a wide variety of foods to them, the amphibians, lizards etc having a wide range of insects not just one or two types, the snakes having a range if snall mammals, birds, lizards, amphibians and for the snake eating species other snakes etc.
The cases I do use artificial foods ie rodents and birds, these are as a supplement to make sure I'm covering the nutrients they need along side their raw diet. Just one example is the rats i breed for the snakes mostly have a whole seed, nut, veg/low sugar fruits like green pepper, squash etc diet. As well as a range of invertebrates. Then get one pellet each a day as a supplement and occasionally get sugary fruits and actual "meat" ie peft over bones, day old chicks etc. Btw occasionally means once or twice a month.
Imo we should feed animals what they were made to eat not what they can eat because we want them too for our own convenience/morals/lifestyle.
If you're vegan and want a vegan pet you should get a vegan pet. Ie rabbits, Guinea pigs, true vegan fish etc.
Note not tortoises. All of them naturally scavenge bones for calcium and need a source like cuttlefish bones. Many species also needing actual animal protein like Red Foots which both eat invertebrates and savage animal carcasses.
Some of the caveats I said I'd address is for example if its not the exact foid species in nature but similar and does the same job.
My King Rat snake from China eats pretty much everything including a significant amount of snakes. Me feeding him Corn snakes from North America isn't natural true but its more natural then just feeding him rats abd mice and making it obese like most people do with them.
Also acceptions is when an animal has specific conditions and need a specific diet. A friend of mine has a dog allergic to nearly everything and has to eat an artificial kibble that's made from insects.
My problem is, I tried it 3 times with my cat. Each time it starts to vomit. It like the food very much. but unfortunatly ...
The dog is no problem.
Perhaps go slow, begin by mixing small portions of the new food in with their old food?
No! Cats are obligate carnivores, if you don't like it... Too bad!
You forget nutrition science. Food can be broken down and analyzed.
@@nullethosechoes lmao what?? cats are pure carnivores period.
@@csrxmyedits repeating what the fist person wrote is a non answer
@@nullethosechoesFacts are Facts
@@oj397 what part did you not agree with?
And this is why we can't really rely on any studies to do with human health either.
I agree that dry kibble is horrible. I think we should try raw and balanced car diet. Its so difficult for me in turkey to access this since a cat would never kill a calf or a chicken anyway. But I still try my best with the super premium meat based cat food. I am trying my best with being vegan myself and as long as my cats live, ı will not ‘try’ the vegan diet on them. I don’t find it ethical to cross this line. Anyway the reality is cats are not suitable for indoor feeding… kibble is a horrible main food source. At the moment it is what it is and we can’t justify going a step further to vegan kibble just because its already bad.
Does anyone know of any commercial brands that develop vegan cat food that is based on science, meets all the nutritional requirements, and has approval from vets?
The only one I can think of is one by Purina or Hill's and it has hydrolyzed soy protein. I'm pretty sure it's prescription for cats with IBS or allergies. Can't remember the name.
So I double checked and I was thinking of Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets HA Hydrolyzed Dry Cat Food. It does have chicken in it but soy is the main protein. Sorry!
Vegan cats….the vegan subject is definitely on the wain.
Mmm idk about this one
@@MdoubleHBxxx. I do agree that cats are carnivores and not meant to live off a vegan diet, however I don't see the problem with a vegan being a cat owner. Cats are carnivores by nature and there's no reason to demonize them for it. There are millions of cats in shelters who deserve homes and adopting one isn't a bad thing.
@@grimalkinouranpotter7352Adopt a bunny.
why would you give a cat or a dog vegan food only, that is just animal abuse
not if it's healthy and nutritious. The animal abuse is mostly in the meat, dairy and egg industry.
@@nullethosechoes no, if you give a carnivorous animal vegan diet, you are abusing that animal, the animal has zero say in this
@@maxgain4611 It could be hundreds of animals suffering for 1 cat. Go to any animal welfare/rights website, watch some videos on what goes on in animal agriculture.
Obviously it's not abuse if it's nutritious and they are healthy, as thousands of cat owners said they were.
@@maxgain4611 the animals fed to the cat has zero say, people forget this
@@nullethosechoes is that a problem? You clearly don't know how life and nature works and how cat's physiology works, cats are not vegan
Haven't watched yet but the answer obviously is yes
Note: cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they have to eat meat to survive
but then if you change the context, and put them in homes with humans who have technology, science, medicine etc. it is possible
@nullethosechoes, at that point, you are legit just abusing them. They are carnivores, and if test tube meat is good, you eat it lmao.
@@bdbyt6835 abuse is what happens in animal agriculture - it is the farmed animals who are actually abused and fed to the cat that you should be worried about if animal welfare is something you care about. Vegan cats are healthy and well taken care of according to studies, for example the one that came out in september 2023, or the systematic review in january 2023.
My cat eats chips,biscuits and rice mixed with soup and cat grass as well. But she eats meat for taurine and B12 which plants don't have
There is plenty of healthy vegan cat food. Cats do not have to eat meat.
Great analysis
Oh my god its the worm from Labyrinth!
No, cats cannot be vegan!..But dogs can be vegan.
It is possible to make vegan food for cats. Then you have to use processing, synthetic products, microorganisms and algae to make it happen. Protein from peas, beans and potatoes is of good protein quality, but there is also a lot of fiber and carbohydrates that must be removed in order to obtain sufficient protein content to meet the cat's needs, says Ahlstrøm.
- Overall, this will be very expensive and very complicated if you want to do it yourself.
Plz, cats cannot be Vegan... Cats are 100% carnivore.
Honestly, not enough research.... what are the ages of the cats? How long did they live on average? I have a 23-year-old non-vegan tabby, and I'm not too certain he'd be alive if I fed him vegan kibble or the regular cat kibble on the market.
Feeding your cats a vegan diet is abusive
Proof??? And killing all the animals to feed one cat is not abusive?
This attitude is ridiculously abusive, illogical, and arrogant. All the vegans who've been caring for abandoned and neglected cats, and being accused of "animal abuse" for not killing multiple animals and financially supportingthe meat industry on their behalf, have had enough of this nonsense. Get a grip, stop the bazaar cat worship, and do what's right: feed cats plant based.
@@vgnwlf “bizarre cat worship” aka feeding them what they’re supposed to eat
@@haydnstv they are dependent domesticated animals with no place in the wild kingdom, thus what they are supposed eat is what we feed them. So being responsible caretakers, we should be feeding them whatever will overall cause the least harm practical and possible, which would be a plant based diet as nutritionally adequate as we can provide. There is no justification in feeding them meat whatsoever. Euthanizing them is the better option if for some bazaar reason meat were necessary for them, and thankfully it isn't.
@@TUG657no, because life feeds on life
Cats are naturally carnivorous. Don’t neglect their nutritional needs for your own selfish reasons.
It wouldn't be for selfish reasons though. It would be unselfish to think about all animals, not just cats.
@@nullethosechoes Forcing your naturally carnivorous pet to be vegan just because you are is selfish.
@@paigemontague4022 no because you would also think about hundreds of other animals forced to become cat food. Forcing them to be farmed is selfish just so you can have a pet.
@@nullethosechoesSo don’t get a cat. Get a bloodclat rabbit.
@@nullethosechoes It would be for selfish reasons in fact it’s speciesism. You’re Trying to justify your choices
By using cognitive dissonance to think that you’re doing something good when in reality you’re not. You’re putting your morals and ethics, human morals and ethics on an animal because you feel guilty about some thing that it was created and evolved to do. That’s just biology and if no one ever told you sometimes nature isn’t fair based on your beliefs but it doesn’t make it right or wrong, that’s human thinking. It just is
no way. You haven't aged a DAY Swayze I swear
I disagree with the idea of making your cat or dog vegan for the same reason I’m sure people who are vegan disagree with someone eating meat. Animal cruelty because even if you don’t see it that way, you are imposing your human ethics and morality on an animal. If you’re about animal rights than you would not do this to a cat. Not to mention you’re running an incredibly risky game in terms of ensuring that you know what you’re doing to make sure a cat gets all of their nutritional needs In preparation of their meals. If you really care about speciesism or animal rights then you will not force an animal to do something outside of its natural state just so you can feel better personally as a human. The idea that because humans are typically healthier on a vegan diet, which already is not as straightforward as people like to make it seem because typically if they’re shooting to a vegan diet they were eating a standard North American diet which is horrendous for your health. But just because humans can do well in a vegan diet it should not be automatically assumed that cats or any other sort of animal that benefits for meat in greater ways than people argue for humans would somehow also do just as well or better.
Good luck. I can’t even get my cat to eat literal salmon and shrimp cuts. He only eats his one kind of crunchies and it’s not the good kind.
I would really like if you tried Future Farm plant meats, its from Brazil! I think they sell it in the us
i absolutely love cats and grew up with cats but I don't want a cat if I have to feed it non vegan food BUT I would feel bad if I'm feeding it vegan food that might detrimentally affect the cat. However, something I think about is wouldn't it be better if I take a cat from the shelter give it a loving home and still feed it a vegan diet despite maybe the possible reduction in a cat's lifespan? 😅
No that is cruel to feed an animal a diet that is not ideal for it. get over it and feed a cat meat or dont get a cat.
@@ReallyOrganic I just wouldn't get a cat as a pet, which is fine. This is just a thought I had never said it was a correct or just or ethical. However, if we are speaking about ideal diets most cats are not fed the ideal diet. In the video, Swayze discussed how most commercial foods available for cats are nutritionally deficient...
Now there's some beautiful reason and logic! Don't let anyone bully you out of it. Such cats are better off being loved and provided for and being fed a plant based diet, even IF their health were to be less than optimal, than being left in shelters etc.
@@ReallyOrganicwhat illogical trolling bs, what the poster said was right and true, you weird cat worshippers are losing the argument so 😤😝
Personally I would not rescue/adopt a cat, only to risk it going blind from lack of taurine, for example, through forcing them to be vegan.
I don’t think you deeply understand what a p-value actually means. The cutoff p-value used for statistical significance is utterly arbitrary. There’s nothing magical about a p-value smaller than 0.05. It’s just a convention based mostly on tradition or habit (just like eating meat).
The different health outcomes measured between the two groups of cats fed with the different two diets did exist (since in all measurements p-values were smaller than 0.5). What a p-value lower than 0.05 simply tells us is that if there were an infinite population of cats fed with control and plant-based diets and their different diets didn’t have any effect on the health outcomes that are measured for this study, the probability that the difference measured between the two groups of the sample were the effect of randomly picking that finite sample of cats used for the study would be less than 5%. Would there be much of a difference if instead of less than 5% were less than 10%? I don’t think so.
Um, p values are not arbitrary. Your comment indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of what p values are intended to signify and why it is important to determining whether the null hypothesis should be rejected.
P values don't tell you that the effect size is 5%, they tell you that the chance of getting a false positive in the data is less than 5%. The difference between 5 and 10% when it comes to a result occurring by chance is not small, it's double, to be precise. If you understand statistics, you will understand this incontrovertible fact. If 5% of surgeries resulted in death, we would think long and hard about whether the benefit was worth the risk. At 10%, no one in their right mind would sign up for those odds. Statistics matter.
@@EverythingIsPhotogenic, I don't think you can read. I never said p-values were arbitrary but the cutoff p-value that is used to decide the statistical significance of a result in support of a certain hypothesis.
Likewise, I never said that p-values told me that the effect size is 5%. Have you ever heard of the straw-man fallacy?
As for the 5% vs. 10% of surgeries resulting in death, have you ever heard of the false analogy fallacy?
Instead, what you should have compared is the hard outcome of the standard of care treatment for a certain deadly pathology vs. the surgery, the null hypothesis being the surgery be at least just as deadly as the standard of care treatment, and a cutoff p-value either 0.05 or 0.10.
In such situation, a p-value smaller than 0.10 would mean that if the surgery were at least just as deadly as the standard of care treatment, the probability of having the favorable result we have got in the trial (or a more favorable one) would be of less 10% (vs. less than 5%).
Would you undergo such surgery (rather than the standard of care treatment) if you knew beforehand that even if the results of the surgery during the trial have been less deadly than the standard of care treatment, there's less than 10% of probability that even if the surgery is at least just as deadly they'd have got those favorable results for the surgery (or more favorable ones) in that clinical trial?
@ First and foremost, it's disappointing to see that instead of engaging in a constructive discussion, you've resorted to personal jabs and misrepresentations. Listing fallacies to discredit contextual comparison is a typical "debate bro" tactic and makes your argument appear weaker than it already is. Address the substance of the argument without resorting to insults and disingenuous discourse.
P-values and the 0.05 Cutoff: You're trying to split hairs by saying you didn't call p-values arbitrary, but you did suggest the 0.05 cutoff is just a "habit" and the statistical significance "arbitrary." Despite your attempt to be pedantic, this is a mischaracterization. The 0.05 threshold is a widely accepted standard in the scientific community, not because of blind tradition, but because it strikes a balance in minimizing both Type I and Type II errors. It provides a level of confidence that the results are not just a product of random chance. 0.10 does not strike such a balance.
Accusing someone of a straw-man fallacy while misrepresenting their argument is ironic. The point about the effect size was a clarification, not a misrepresentation of your argument. The distinction between a 5% and 10% chance of observing a result, if the null hypothesis were true, is crucial. It's not a minor difference; it's a doubling of the risk. In many contexts, especially in fields like medicine, this difference can be the line between an accepted practice and a rejected one.
With that in mind, your attempt to reframe the surgery risk scenario misses the point. The analogy was to highlight the real-world implications of statistical decisions. It's not merely about comparing two numbers in isolation but understanding the broader consequences of those numbers. Confounding that in order to move the goalposts is a ineffective method of swaying someone who has a very robust understanding of and experience in research standards and methodologies.
A word of advice, if you want to have your arguments taken seriously, approach these discussions with an open mind and mutual respect. Resorting to fallacy accusations and personal insults detracts from the substance of the argument and doesn't foster a productive conversation. Focus on the facts and the logic behind them, rather than resorting to rhetorical tactics.
I don't waste time with bad faith dialectic, so feel free to take the last word here. Enjoy your day.
Most people were feeding their cats vegan diets due to allergies and not for ethics reasons.
Well it's about time we all feed them vegan diets based on ethical reasons. Their 'optimal health' does not justify killing other animals on their behalf. The arrogance involved in people's attitudes about cats is bazaar, almost like a strange form of worship.
We adopted our rescue cat four years ago. If we were vegan back then, we might not have adopted him. For better or worse we're stuck with him, and he's a great companion. While I considered feeding him vegan, the studies seem iffy at best, and the availability is near zero where I live. He also has a sensitive stomach, and if he doesn't tolerate it, that's out of the window.
Lame. Spare the lives of more animals and feed the cat plants. Even feeding it oats and beans and rice is better than killing other animals on its behalf or financially supporting slaughter businesses.
Cats are a carnivore they along with other animals need mewt to survive so forcing your cat/dog to be vegan is just cruel
THE ANSWER IS NO.
IT DOESN´T MATTER HOW MANY NEW STUDIES COME.
How many dead animals is a cat worth? Lol. Nice.
Why being vegan but torture the cat?
Cats are not vegans! I can’t believe I am even hearing this from someone I thought was so reasonable.
You are so logical in most of your videos but this one.. just no... Saying it wouldnt be shocking if meat was bad for cats too? They are literally carnivores 🤦
I have 8 cats. 5 kittens,4 of whom will have lovely new homes soon ( I'm keeping 1 because I'm an idiot) I'm vegan, my cats are not. I do not have an issue with it. My chickens are vegan because it works. As far as I'm concerned cats are obligate carnivores and mine are very healthy. Even well fed they will still hunt and eat rodent life. I live in the countryside in Ireland so plenty to hunt. They eat EVERY bit! I love them and want them to be healthy and happy
If you feed your cat farmed animal meat or you kill other animals to feed your cat, you aren’t vegan, just a plant-based dieter.
you are not vegan if you buy dead animals body parts for ''youre'' cat to eat . do you eat then chickens eggs
In the spirit of vegan ethics you should feed your cats plant based food. Even if it weren't nutritionally adequate, which it is. You can't control their outside predatory behavior, but you can control what you feed them in your home and thus your own predatory behavior on their behalf. Stop the "obligate carnivore" cat worship crap and do what's actually ethical, eh?
why should I care . What reason are you telling me this
Until I have full proof, I'm not willing to risk the health of my cats that I love dearly. That's all I'm saying. When I'm 100% sure it's healthy, then yes, I would do my best. Just not yet.