Radiant Shop Flooring System Overview
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
- Matt tours Eric Aune's shop and they talk about his radiant heat flooring system up in Minneapolis! They talk install details and list some pros and cons of the system.
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Dude's great on camera & a good explainer.
Great video. I really appreciate Matt asking about each component and getting more in-depth. MINOR quibble about opening the garage door on a frigid day ⛄: both the radiant floor and a forced air heater are going to restore the garage to a stable temperature in a similar time frame. The loss of heat is a function of the *mass* of the low-heat air (bitter cold) being exchanged with the outside. All the high-mass stuff in the room takes much longer to lose heat. Once the door is shut, the room would reach equilibrium again fairly quickly as a result of all the other (relatively) warm high-mass objects in the room shedding heat back into the room.
Your mom was wrong! Holding the fridge door open for an extra 10 seconds wastes very little energy. 😁
We did the opposite for our building in a very hot country Lahore, Pakistan. Using Pex-Al-Pex piping on every 8 in thick slab we are circulating chilled water to take the heat away from the floor. Since solar power is available for 6 hours only the rest of the time these slabs stay cool and act as "thermal" batteries.
Interesting; I assumed it works in your arid climate. The risk we have in southeast US for the cooling method is condensation on the slab due to higher humidity.
Thats fine for a dry climate but not where this video took place, floor would be wet.
@@AndyFrommI do the same in the north east, however I have a floor slab temp sensor to make sure the slab never goes below 64F in my case. I will never hit that dew point in the home, if I do it'd have to be 75F and 70% Humidity inside my home.
@@pavalenta i don't know what temp my shop floor is but I have to run a dehumidifier or it will be wet like it just got washed all the time in the summer. I'm in Minnesota and my floor has no pex in it or insulation, just vapor barrier.
@@designbuild7128 You’re not chilling the slab to dew point. You’d be running a water chiller to 68F at the lowest, probably 72-74F would be most comfortable. Combine that w/ERV and properly insulated/sealed structure. Would be MUCH more comfortable and healthy than a forced air HVAC system
I DIY'd my in floor radiant heating system here in Northern New Jersey. Took me tons of research online and reading a book by John Seigenthaler. The hardest thing was retroactively running PEX pipe through the ceiling in my basement (through the joists). Grueling work for a single person, took me two years to fully build out because I would stop work on it for months at a time. This allowed me to make few mistakes as the pace allowed me to double and triple check my work.
It's 3 zones, initially zoned with pumps then later "downgraded" to use Thermal Actuators (I found zoning with pumps to be excessive). Currently it uses one pump for recirculation and a separate pump and heat exchanger for heat requisition.
I learned so much I could probably do a bit of consulting on the subject.
This is exactly my plan for my house in Seattle. Thanks for the book reference!
John Seigenthaler is the king of knowledge for low temp hydronics. I did radiant in my basement slab and removed a perfectly good propane furnace for a water to air air-handler, all coupled to a air to water heat pump
@@balzacq best of luck. The book is absolutely necessary. You might be able to skip certain chapters.
Some folks sell prefabricated distribution kits. Which depending on your budget could help you be done quickly.
@@orielsy I already have a natural gas combi boiler with plenty of BTUs for the size of my house, I just (just!) need to design the radiant system part of it. And I'm very handy and able to do the work.
@orielsy Are thermal actuators different than zoning valves? Why did you find that advantageous over pumps for each zone? Just energy efficiency? I am currently building a 2600 sq. ft. house that I have installed radiant into the basement slab, under the subfloor, and in the attached garage. It will be 5 zones including the garage and I had planned on a setup using pumps for each zone. Just curious about why and how you did yours. Thanks!
The first house I bought early in my working career was built in the early 1950’s and had a primitive hot water in-floor heating system - and by the time I bought the house it had been an abandoned heating system. It was installed in a concrete slab and when it started leaking, there was no reasonably priced fix.
Fast forward to a 2019 master bath remodel, I installed a Kerri heated floor under the new ceramic floor and I appreciate it all year around. Happy toes every day! 😌
Campanelli ranch house in MA?
In iceland they have hot water service to each house, like we have natural gas, because of all the geothermal. The houses are all radiant in floor. I stayed in a 3BR apartment for 4 nights in sub freezing temps. Amazingly comfortable. They also fill their hot tubs daily with geothermal heated water. Had to be 105F+. Amazing
Very interesting, love this info!
Very clear and concise presentation. We’ve done these on our homes in MT and CO high Rockies for years. Since we don’t do slab on grade in living spaces here. We’ve adopted the hydronic radiant panels using Warmboard and more recently Thermalboard. Our rep has mentioned placing hydronic radiant panels in ceiling being as effective as in-slab. The engineer in me has somewhat dismissed this due to lack of thermal mass however it should be more responsive and as a radiant system it will warm objects including the slab.
The big benefit would of course the remodel/retrofit work, which we rarely ever do. I am however considering it on upcoming project where the customer is a big car collector and will be storing up to 20 cars in a garage. It’s a 2-story garage with built in storage lifts. It has a ‘man cave area on upper level thus heated ceiling would be very nice. Do you have any experience using the hydronic ceiling panels in your climate? If so how did they compare in performance w/in-slab?
Awesome setup
Very cool episode about Radiant flooring! Thanks for sharing.
It's amazing how much effort you put into staying current, congratulations. In my personal shop S. Florida I installed (2001) radiant tubing in 3200 sq. ft. of an 8000sq ft shop. I live on my property with the water table at 18"-30" deep the Biscayne Aquifer stays at a constant 69 degrees year round. I have a 1hp water pump that pumps this water thru my open system returning water to ground at end of loop. This keeps floor in main part of shop within 2 Degrees year round and with some floor fans has cut my A/C expenses more than 50% which is a reverse use of geothermal but has worked for the last 20 years with one rewind of pump motor. I have been sorry ever since that I was too cheap to not cover entire workshop but in my defense it at the time was an experiment. Ray
Very cool, Id love to see a video on this.
I built this in 2000-2001 five years before uTube existed so I do not have any vids. of the original installation but system works well enough to keep my personal shop very comfortable all year as heating is not an issue but if needed I could probably make system switch over to hot water heated via solar of which I have an abundance of in S. Florida thanks for the compliment only some of my schemes work out. Ray@@fox156
I was designing my shop when Matt made his geothermal video with Wade a couple years back. So I went with a groundsource water to water heat pump to run my radiant slab.
I would've expected to see thicker under slab insulation on thus guy's build, especially in Minnesota. I went with 4" expanded polystyrene and stego wrap.
I wondered myself. But they didn't say what it was or what the R-value gained from it would be so maybe it was something that worked? Or we were seeing only one layer of two going down.
One important fact is the heat from a forced air system ends up on the ceiling, where the radiant floor system keeps the heat near the floor where the people are. With a tall ceiling in a forced air system it could be 85 degrees at the ceiling and the floor would be 72. Radiant costs more up front, but it is by far the most comfortable system, you get what you pay for.
I lived in the Minneapolis suburbs for decades. I've since returned to the Black Hills of South Dakota. Winters and summers here at my altitude are much milder. Still we do get extremes. It's been in the mid 90's the past couple of days. Yet I don't have AC. Normally overnight the temps are in the mid 50's to low 60's overnight and I can cool the house down with a whole house fan and hold the temperature at a comfortable level until nightfall. Today is a rare exception. The low was 67 which last less than an hour. Still my house is at 69 and the high today will only be in the high 80's. As far as heating, again it's milder. We don't have long extended periods of subzero temps. Average high in Dec and Jan is 36. We have a Navien Combi boiler. In floor heat in the basement of out 1500 SF house as well as the. 900 SF garage. Basement is ICF's and only has 2 large windows and a 6'slider. As mentioned, opening the garage door results in an immediate drop in temperature, but recovery is very quick. I keep the garage at 55 and it's quite comfortable for working on my classic truck build. Would love to have radiant on the main floor but due to the construction of the house the only way would have been to use a product like Warmboard. That would have added $20,000 to the build which was more than we could handle. So we have radiant Cove heat which we rarely use and a wood burning fireplace. We're in our 70's and cutting and burning wood is getting tough for us oldies so a propane fireplace is in our future in a couple more years.
Dang this is very nice. In the future I definitely would consider doing this all over the house or I guess future build of a house. Aune Plumbing is very close to me, I'm near to Anoka, MN. Looks like I know who to call if I ever need any plumbing work done.
Video Title gave me good laugh! 👍
What do you use as an thermal barrier at the garage doors? I'm building a 40x60 shop with a garage door at each end. I'm definitely doing radiant floor and want to make it as efficient as possible. I live in south center PA
Would love to see a video on best electric heat pump systems. Can you do warmboard on a concrete slab?
A water to water heatpump could also be used. An apartment building in my home town use a heatpump that a "collector" in the city pond.
Saw your other video. I’m completely confused on how to run the pex and vapor block onto existing floating slab.
First system I saw like this I thought was a joke,Boy Was I Ever Wrong...Super Comfortable
I try to consult people to use radiant in floor heat in a slab. Its only one floor. No crawl space floor as well. We use AMVIC AMPEX r-10 to R-16 or more if you want it in cold climates. Ampex has vapour barrier heat welded on it already so no other vapour membrane is necessary and no stapling the pex tube. Ampex has discs on top so the pex tube friction fits into the insulation. Ampex is a very fast install system saving hours and cost. Also should one decide to change the layout of the tubing, the pex is easily ripped out of the discs and placed into another direction.
Used ampex for basement slab radiant, super fast
What would you expect the life expectancy of the floor heating pipes are?
If a leak were to to happen with this system it seams like this would be a major repair isolating the issues & fixing the slab.
I try to Design build homes that will last a lifetime & at the same time mitigate risk.
Also good to know the system can run with a heat pump. Is there a Solar Thermal Panel that could be combined with this system as well?
Solar Thermal is more efficient than a Photovoltaic System powering an Electric Heat pump. Especially here in the warmer climate zones in Southern California.
Thanks,
When its hot outside, how do you cool the place and remove humidity?
different system.
Yes and thats why it is not practical to have to still install a cooling system with ducts that could also provide heat. @@jdavidwhitfield4827
For a shop - sweat it out. If it’s a house you need a mini split system or ducted furnace system. This is why majority of homes don’t have in floor heat too expensive because you need two systems.
Easy way would be mini split system
Do I need a manifold for an 1100sqft house with no heat at all in the house slab on in Isle Minnesota
I’ve done a few radiant floors in shops. I did a 60x140 shop with geothermal and radiant heating. After the whole shop with 26’ tall ceiling was heated to 72F degrees in -10F it only took 6kw of power to maintain. That’s less power than a 30gal electric water heater.
Was that 6kw an hour? In my area in the northeast at .28 cents a kilowatt that's 1.4 an hour or approx. 1200 a month
@@lancemartin7926 yes
@@lancemartin7926 but look at it this way. It’s a 60x140 with 26’ ceilings. How many shops do you know can heat with that intensity?
@@RadDadisRad I'm not questioning that approx 20000 btu is a great reduction in the heat load I'm making light of the cost of the electric
CAN I USE A HIGH EFFICIENCY WATER HEATER INSTEAD OF A BOILER FOR GLYCOL ADDED RADIANT HEAT?
Matt I'm in Houston could you use radiant cooling in a similar way
Yes. All the heat pump is doing is removing heat from the floor instead of adding. The system has to be sized properly and designed to prevent condensation, but it works, as heat always moves to colder objects, but all surfaces are not good for radiant climate control.
A friend of mine has a sunroom with a radiant floor in the northeast. It's right about the most awesome thing I've ever seen in building materials. You set the air temperature far lower (65 F in winter, perhaps) and stay more comfortable. If you get a little cold, you put your feet on the floor and your entire body seems to warm right back up. The only downside is the effective need to commit to a concrete or ceramic floor, at least in the short to medium term.
The one aspect that keeps me away from this (aside from a desire for hardwood) is the issues if the coils develop a leak inside the concrete. You'd need to rip up a large section of your flooring to repair it (or to shutoff that section).
They won’t if installed correctly.
If you wanted this type of system you could install it on any surface (walls, ceiling or floor). Of course, in the floor is where it performs best. If you are concerned, you can mitigate by building in such a way to allow for tweaking post build. Also it's practically impossible for a leak to develop if there are no fittings in each loop. PEX is rated for a 50 year lifespan, expect no less if there aren't any fittings in the loops.
I installed DitraHeat in my sunroom addition. In the Midwest and room is ~325 sq ft in with 19' ceiling at the peak. It was inexpensive to implement (no boiler and I did it all myself) and actually doesn't cost that much to run; in the dead of winter it uses about $10/week of electricity. It has a dedicated thermostat so I can control the floor as it's own zone independent of my main HVAC. Love it and am considering doing a majority of my next house and shop that way
Matt, Solar isn't really worth a shit in the winter. It's OK for shoulder months, but you aren't going to get too much in the dead of the winter. Natural gas is the way to go. Unless you are grid connected and can bank hours. I would still prefer natural gas as it would still work during ice/snow storms (with downed lines) with a minimum of solar and batteries.
Hey Matt when are you going to visit StudPack? 😉
How thick is the slab on top of the radiant piping? Seeing that it's a garage- how do you handle the probable installation of automotive lifts and other concrete anchors?
Pre planning! Lots of pictures with permanent landmarks and I put a 5 inch thick slab that goes up into the 6 inch mark where equipment will be.
When the pipes are warm you can see their outlines through a thermal scan if you really want to make sure you aren't going to hit one installing a lift.
Rule of thumb is you don’t drill into a prepoured slab with radiant lines.
Thermal imaging camera. Turn on heat and boom you can see the tubing in the concrete like bones in an xray
It's a fun game - called radiant roulette!
I wish air-to-water heat pumps were more common. I've been searching for months for my current build. Diakin and Mitsubishi are the best but not sold in NA. Other brands like Arctic or Enertech only offer 1-3 yr warranties which pretty unexciting. SpacePak seems decent though they don't have a lot of fans. Really the technology doesn't have fans at all where I live. I recently talked to a MEP Engineer about designing my system and despite 40 years in the business he's never even heard of air to water. Other companies offer them but don't recommend them "because they are too new to the market to see long term data". Nordic and SpacePak seem like my best bet so far but Nordic's biggest ($20,000) unit only can handle 30k btu and I need 45k
what about converting to electric boilers for those that have Solar PV??
You can get air to water heat pumps for $$$ that work at ideal temps for in floor heating.
What about installing radiant heater panels instead of solar panels and convert the solar heat into boiler heat using an HRV.
Some folks use electric boilers (correct term is water heater; boilers are not necessary for hydronic radiant heat). That is a common application for this system.
Since that is a shop, how do they avoid puncturing the pipe if they need to drill into the concrete to install installation bolts for large machinery?
theres a few ways, xray or thermal camera works.
@@Etacovda63 Ah, that would make sense.
Nice looking system! In Texas how about Radiant Shop Floor Cooling?
Why? AC will make the floor bone chilling.
Lol you want wet floors to go with it?
Weird Propylene glycol in my area is always pink and green is ethylene
👍👍
What happens to the floor tubing when the concrete cracks?
nothing, you would need alot of movement in the slab to cut one of these tubes. At that point youve got bigger problems than the tubing
I believe it is recommended to use pipe sleeves if you are joining two slabs together. However, a simple crack, even a large one should not hurt the tubing. OB PEX stretches by like, 10” every 100ft. when hot.
It depends on the crack. Pex stays flexible so most cracks aren't a big deal, but major shifts will break anything. With good ground prep and quality concrete work, there's very little risk over many decades.
Mmmmm heat pumps.
in all your videos i could not find not even one that for plumbing present ppr pipes and not cpvc which are 2 diferent things makes me belive in USA are not so used while here in EU is like more than 20 years that i learnt about them.
This is old tech in Canada
Are you telling me that's the only dedicated source of heating for the house?
I built my own in northern NJ just off watching videos on youtube and reading some chapters in a book by a guy named John Seigenthaler.
My instant water heater is the only source of heat (note: water heater... not boiler). It services my heating system plus 2 kitchens, 2 laundry rooms, 2 bathrooms.
My house was built in 1910, features no insulation in the walls (with the exception of the bathroom I remodeled). My system heats the first floor and indirectly heats the basement to a constant 65-67F degrees in the winter.
It’s cheaper to run than a generic electric water heater. It’s definitely worth it.
@@RadDadisRad I can't imagine in the north east using radiant floor heating for whole house, can't be comfortable. Maybe with a mini/multisplit system yes
@@homes24 Comfortable isn't the word, it's magical. No temperature swings EVER. Warm floors all winter. There is no better source of heat barring the sun itself.
This heating method is much more common in the Nordic countries that are way colder than the North Eastern parts of US.
@@homes24 it’s super comfortable in the Midwest. Remember the entire floor is a thermal battery. Whenever the ambient air temperature shifts lower all the heat stored in the concrete is shed into the air. Humidity is also maintained because it’s not pulling any moisture out of the air like a draw through air system would.
Once again, $10,000? The systems you show are fantastic and it seems everyone is in design mode. All new stuff, new codes. Wonderful, however how do we afford it? Especially okder folk. Once after your peek period of incomproducing or just at the start of it you can't affort to do it right. It's frustrating.
I'm going full retard on the energy efficiencies in the new house & shop we're going to build👍🏼
Yeah PROPYLENEclygol is a safe and common and also a food additive but ETHYLENEclygol is deadly and a cup is enough to kill an adult, just so people realise that while both are common antifreeze glycols they have quite a difference in toxicity.
The air separator should be at the high point, and you need to eliminate antifreeze. It kills the heat transfer by 30%.
Oh wow, so where does the heat go?
@@fox156 the flue
Cybek knows everything just ask him
@@daveklein2826 with regards to HVAC, yes I do.
I know, you are a legend in your own mind 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Just a air seperator??? You mean HYDRAULIC SEPARATOR! This part is important... Not the same model, but ruclips.net/video/DB1uQaOSwcc/видео.html
"We're not drinking this, It's NON-TOXIC however." Heck ya, that's good winter insurance without the heftiest of price tags. win-win.
Fast forward 30 years. Simple? Elegant? Enduring? NO!
Prove it
By whose standard? When my grandma moved from her house with radiant heat floors into assisted living, her system was several decades old and still magical in the winter. Cheap to run, extremely reliable and extraordinarily comfortable.
How much more simple, elegant or enduring than that do you want?
It's actually something I want for my house someday.
@@danielchin8073 Complexity. Problematic.
Too much technical incorrectness in the given explanation. Floor-heating is definitely great. (but check your reasons for yourself)
If you DIY a 10-loop system - approx 100m2 or 1000squarebananas (furnace + tubing) - that will be ~ 4k monies in material-costs for the furnace + plumbing + floor-unit + PEX installation system. (excluding the floor-insulation, prep and the flooring itself)