How Much Faster Can You Stop With Disc Brakes?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In association with SRAM.
Disc brakes have begun to make an appearance in the pro peloton, so we think it's safe to say that they're here to stay. But, how much faster can you stop with discs? And, is that the only advantage?
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Do you use disc brakes? If not, are you thinking of getting them anytime soon?
The braking benefits of discs have been shown in pretty much every other wheeled sport, so, if anything, it's a surprise that they've taken this long to get traction in road cycling.
With fewer and fewer reasons left not to be thinking about upgrading to discs, we wanted to see the actual performance differences between discs and top-of-the range rim brakes and wheels out on the road over various different surfaces and in different conditions.
Watch more videos:
How to brake like a pro: gcn.eu/1DSwOC2
Are disc brakes ready for the pro peloton? gcn.eu/1WoSXy7
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You should try disc brakes and knobby tyres. Way better!
Global Mountain Bike Network CX bike?
chewingthehandlebars i think thats what he means.
Global Mountain Bike Network You should try disc brakes and Fat Bike tires(tyres). Way, way, way better!
Matthew Lockyer I have a sneaky suspicion they probably mean MTBs!
Global Mountain Bike Network i believe a road bike would really benefit from a dual crown 200mm fork
Discs are superb compared to rim brakes. I have low to mid range rim brakes on my road bike and they require a lot of effort to work efficiently and when riding some steep long and windy descents, they just fade away, which is no fun at all. All my other bikes have disc brakes and they are awesome.
I like how with disk brakes you only need a small amount of force on the brakes, with my old bike I had to pull quite hard to get the same power and when it was wet I barely had any brakes. I only have MTBs but I imagine it's the same on a road bike.
If you have good pads on a mountain bike with alloy wheels, I bet the stopping power is very similar in dry conditions... Only the modulation is much worse and the weather conditions affect them a lot,even more if you do some trails... On the real world, though, disc brakes any day
Sandro is right. I am always teasing my friends with my rim brakes. I outbrake my friends mechanical disk brakes and I keep up with my friends hydraulic disk brakes, well that is until things get wet. All in all I prefer hydraulic disk brakes because I tend on doing a lot of one finger braking(I wheelie a lot), but sometimes simplicity is key.
If you are riding in 'good' conditions it isn't mountain riding ;) I do lots of creek crossings and other wet stuff, disks are so much better it isn't funny
I'm confused just because you don't consider dry conditions to not be true mountain biking doesn't mean it's true, one of the biggest biking events of the year is in Whistler park in Bc Canada and it's almost if not completely dry.
It was mainly a joke, thus the ;) don't be so literal.
Considering both brakes have enough force to completely stop the wheel rotating (as you were doing in these tests), the *type* of brake doesn't matter, only the tires. That's why you were getting identical results on dry ground.
What does matter is how you're braking. On wet ground, one of you was locking up the rear wheel while the other wasn't, so that alone would possibly give you wildly different results.
I have used both disc and rim brakes and can't tell the difference in terms of braking power.
clearly you've never ridden a mountain bike
You are comparing bananas to apples... In a road bike, the braking power is not that different... I have both types of bikes, hydro disc brakes on the xc mtb and rim brakes on the road bike. Of course on a mtb, disc brakes work much better since you have to deal with mud, dirt, and so on and so forth and in those conditions, disc brakes are a bliss.
no
your right about the tires being the limiting factor when locked up for sure. my question is, is a rim brake that works as good as a disk more expensive than a lower range disk which gives you what you need. Also another factor for me would be longevity of the part and how often it needs to be maintained which doesn't seem to be discussed much.
I'm not sure on the pricing, but I've had more trouble with rim brakes than with discs. The rim brakes I've used all used rubber brake pads, which wear down easily and need to be re-adjusted and replaced frequently. I don't know if you can even use metal brake pads for rim brakes, but I personally have never heard of it.
The nice thing about disc brakes is that they don't wear down nearly as quickly, and if you're going through deep mud or dirt, it doesn't get on the disc. With rim brakes I often had issues where mud would get on the rim and prevent me from braking properly.
The only issue I've ever heard of with disc brakes is that you have to be careful about their temperature, because overheating them can cause the discs to warp. I'd imagine that this causes the brakes to always offer some resistance even when you're not trying to brake at all, and I've been told that repairing warped discs is next to impossible and that the discs would have to be replaced entirely when that happens.
This is all taken from my limited personal experience, so take this with a grain of salt. I was originally only criticizing the way the tests in the video were done.
That's a good start, now just add suspensions and 2in tyres
David Fregoli Suspension on a road bike? Maybe on the fork... Modern suspension forks are too heavy for that though.
+BrainSeepsOut face palm
David Fregoli That's a sportsbike you're requesting :|
Please also compare disc brakes vs rim brakes on alloy braking surface.
How would you compare the disc brakes to aluminium brakes, seen as they usually brake better then carbon?
Since when brake systems affect breaking on different surfaces... (asphalt, gravel ect..) isnt that job for your tyres and suspension?
I would say a rotor brake is by far the best. 1. Disk brakes are bit stronger.
2. Disk brakes engage constantly. While other brakes is unpredictable in wet conditions. One time i almost fell when pulling front brakes in wet conditions. And I am a good rider. I can wheelie endo and I only ride gravel roads. With my motorbike aswell. So I know how to modulate and control the brakes very well. I can myself an abs. But that time that brakes almost made me fell. I have a new bike now. Oil disk brakes. I love them. They are very predictable. But there is one box at cable brakes to tick. While you weelie and pull brakes with oil brakes, the piston might suck in some air. Cable. Never mind that. But if you ceep your brake fluid full, you wont even have a problem with oil brakes.
Any chance you'll do a video reviewing or comparing mechanical disc brakes and rim brakes on aluminum rims?
The big difference is going down steep hills I started melting my brake pads on the rim on my v brakes going down a steep steep hill I pretty much had to blow through a stoplight and hit the sidewalk through a gas station did not die. Granted they were the cheapest pads I could get the one they show here actually seems to be very good.
good job, I was waiting for it!
I just bought my caad12 disc I love them I won't be going back to rims brakes
I thought it just depends on the grip of the tyre. If I can make the front wheel stop spinning with a rim brake it should be as good as the disc brake, right?
But that works only for good conditions.
From my point, the best benefit (if using discs) is that you do not need to change the rims because of the damage the rim brakes do over time.
You get to keep your rims for longer :).
Guys should I buy disk breaks for my hybrid cycle ??
They came with Rim breaks
Should I upgrade ?
I've tried both, and I'm 'sticking' with rim brakes. Beyond the aesthetic, I don't like the added weight from disc.
you must have tried a shitty disc bike then or one without after market light components
Jeremy Sweeten It is only 66 grams per wheel if switching from SRAM Rival hydraulic rim to hydraulic disc. That isn't that big of a difference. That is .15 lbs. Aesthetically, they can look good if you get a good brand.
Jeremy Sweeten the added weight is hardly anything , there are plenty of ways to save weight beyond that, besides the pros far outweigh the con which basically is just weight
***** Why have manufacturers put those brakes on all their models? If they want people to adopt them then why use such a shit example. I have thought about swapping mine for TRP Spyres but I'm not falling for their upgrade tricks.
***** They don't have to start disc brakes on road bikes as a cheap option. If they are such an enhancement then they should be able to charge a premium for the better quality examples. Don't they have confidence in them?
gmbn is better
No they're not.
+Global Cycling Network :D
V brakes- the best brakes
+Global Cycling Network yes, they are
Just spoken to the presenters at GMBN, they agree, GCN is better.
If disk brakes are more efficient, then why do expensive road bikes like the Trek Madone still use v-brakes?
Is it because disk brake systems are heavier?
A couple of meters may be the difference between hitting or not a car or a nasty bump on the road. I say disc brakes all the way.
relying on brakes to potentially get you out of trouble cos you had your head down on a strava segment instead of paying attention to the road is bs and rarely proven to be the diff.
Lol it's not always your fault -,-
Cave Johnson Rim brake users have more money for beer!
Sebastián Munoz If it would be close call you would probably lock your back tire instantly so after you locked your tire its all about ground condition,weight,tire condition.You lock your tire with discs or wirhout them instantly.Only reason i would buy discs is because you dont need to replace them .
Anonimous Ranch get ABS then
Things mountain bikers learned 15+ years ago.
When I'm watching GCN instead of GMBN my balls hurts each time.
Yeah, but consider the differences in use. On a road, you don't need to engage the brake as often and you're not getting into several minutes long descents so steep that you need to engage the brake non-stop.
Also, for mountain bikers, being able to stop the bike with just one finger is a huge advantage.
The advantages for a road bike are probably not as pronounced and it's adding extra weight to the bike.
then again, 11 speed cassettes are surely heavier than 6 speed cassettes, but they do have some pros.
what is considered long and steep in mtb? in road cycling 30-40minute descends are not uncommon. to me anything longer than 2miles @9% is difficult.
Roberto sanchez The major difference is road vs off road, as on road, you'll be tackling descent that were designed. Off road, you can encounter descents, sections of which may be above 50° and unless they're there to give you speed into the section ahead, you need to keep braking the whole time, in order to not exceed manageable speed.
There's a video of a guy riding a cheap bike with v-brakes on a downhill trail. The brakes gave out completely halfway down.
watch?v=wkMnk_eCDQU
I think these distances matter in the city conditions.
Monstermayank better braking matters in all conditions
Same here. In my opinion, every meter (or even every centimeter) counts in city riding.
True. Safety first.
True. Safety first.
Got discs on my Cannondale synapse, I personally wouldn't have a bike without discs now.
Jim Oi gimme ya money!, joking aside, how does the synapse perform?
+ThatWolffe Bit nosey.
***** is that a typo or are you saying I am nosey because I want to know how a bike performs just in case I want to try it in the future
ThatWolffe Brilliant mate, for my kind of riding anyway (anything between 30 & 70 miles). Climbs well and the brakes are a dream on descents. Looks the bollocks too.
Jim thanks im going to add it to my list of bikes to check out
Disc brakes are good. No more worn rims (especially expensive carbon wheels), no more warm tyres and tubes after a long descent (or worse), less maintanence, weather-resistant, much more resilient to abrasive additives such as mud, dust, small stones and the remnants of that bloke who blamed a disc rotor for his injury.
Holding onto your rim brakes is one thing, but criticizing discs is another. What's so taboo about increased safety? Go put your leather hairnets back on then. Show us how a "real man" rides his bike.
You don't stop faster. If you use the same amount of force you'll stop exactly the same time. It needs the same rider in this case, the same exact conditions and the same exact braking force on that surface and you'll stop at the same time.
First of all the rim brake guy didn't even use the brake as the other one. The rim brake guy could have use much more power to almost lock the wheels and that's when you'll stop the fastest. The disc guy slowed down and then locked the wheel when he felt safe. This is also not the fastest way to stop but works better than how the other guy used his brake. Sure other factors like carbon rim and the pad, the disc and the pad combo has a very little effection but it is a rider preference and it effects only in different conditions.
These are physics, man. It is the force you use. It's just and only about the force. Nothing else.
In fact if you would go down both brakes would die due to the heat. But the rim brake would last longer. Also rim brake is lighter, easier to maintenance and there are a lot less things that could go wrong with it.
So again. If you use the same exact force in the same conditions you'll stop at the same time.
Conclusion: Both guys are terrible at braking.
@@moo8698 This is false information. Mechanics prove that locking your front tyre lengthens the stop distance.
@@moo8698 Okay so assuming what you're saying is true, that disc and rim brakes have the same stopping power (I disagree) then disc brakes are still the clear winner because of the much better modulation and therefor increased safety of not locking up your wheels unintentionally.
And that's not adding the benefits of being more weather proof and not wearing down your (expensive) wheelset.
You can't just say that rim brakes are better by assuming that everyone know how to perfectly brake their bike in all conditions imaginable, because that is not practical thinking at all!
Also, I know your comment is a little old, but at this point with the new Ultegra series, there is barely a penalty when considering weight for choosing disc over rim brakes.
Agreed. most important thing is that carbon fiber is basically plastic. it is a fabric glued together with a resin. with the friction, the resin warms up and the structure of the rim is compromised. especially because of the pressure of the tire, which increases with the heat. rim brakes with wheels without a metal wall between the pads and the carbon, are dangerous. people can ask a structural engineer. check it out on the channel of Luescher Teknik, that man knows about carbon fiber
Real men ride their bikes without brakes! Brakes just mean stopping. I live 10 miles from a hospital and I made it there in 10 minutes best upgrade for speed
1:36 you call that 'Very wet weather' ?? how about demonstrating the benefits of discs at 60km/h+ descending an Alpine col in a hail storm .. actually in the UK you've had at least today and yesterday to easily get more soaked than shown here
altern8ive While I get what you're saying, they saw a big difference even in the "very wet weather" so at that point it wasn't really needed to go beyond that point in terms of weather intensity because a conclusion could have already been drawn. However if the two breaks were neck n neck for each of the tests then they would need to push the tests farther to the extremes that you're asking for. Cheers.
fair comment ... although after 20 years using discs i don't believe their dry weather comparison was a fair example either. to prove to a riding buddy my early adoption of discs wasn't misplaced foolishness i out-braked him from 50km/h by many metres using the same tyre combo on an mtb on a dry road and i was a significantly heavier rider than he at the time.
altern8ive You can use a lot more of the power of a disc break on an MTB than on a road bike with a 25mm tire, you are very quickly into locking the wheel on the road bike.
One of my favorite innovations with bikes in general has been disc brakes; the power and consistency of disc brakes is just a night and day improvement over legacy rim brakes.
😂😂😂
how about trying discs against a wheel with an ally braking surface seeing as most people dont own full carbon wheels.
without mentioning that those carbon-alloy wheels are the only type of safe carbon wheels for rim brakes
I realize this is a 6 year old comment but one of the advantages of disc brakes is that you can run carbon wheels all year
one is used to stop supercars so yea
Drums were once used to stop "supercars", so...
Yeah but they don't use them any more
drums are still by far the most efficient brake system out there in terms of stopping power
dion759
Why aren't they used then?
Drum brakes suck and get hot very fast
Would be nice to see a comparison of disc vs. alloy rim brakes.
When it's January in the UK with rain, muck, grime and salt. Disk brakes every time. Braking is more consistent and rotors are cheaper to replace than rims.
Rim brakes are fine in summer or warm climates.
+graham mckinney Rim brakes are becoming the coaster brakes of the modern time compared to discs.
graham mckinney I agree Graham , if disc set ups were lighter I'd have em on tomorrow. Whats the point of fitting discs when you can lock up a road bike wheel now with the efficient caliper brakes we use. The real reason for the advent of discs on road bikes is bike manufacturers pushing the technology so we all have to buy a new frame or bike with disc mounts. It was the same with helmets. None of the Pros wanted them at first but they were foisted on us by helmet manufacturers. Now everyone wears one for very little safety benefit in my view.
Bob Stevens I was also very dubious before I tried them. Like you, I though 'I can lock up my wheels at the moment'.
But, as I tried my best to get across in the video, I was really surprised by the modulation and feel of them, more than actual braking power. They made me realise that, particularly when carbon rims are wet, rim brakes do tend to be either on too much or not enough. The amount of times I was racing in the rain and had to count to 2 after grabbing my brakes before anything actually happened.....
The disc brakes just seem to have a better feel about them, they allowed me to better control my braking so that it was stopping me quickly but not completely locking up.
I'm going to be really interested to see what the pro's think about their qualities (or not) after a few of them have ridden them in rainy conditions.
Dan
+Bob Stevens that's a good point Bob. I remember the being caught out when I bought a mountain bike, then low and behold disk brakes came on the scene six months later. Then I hired a bike with disk brakes at Glentress in the depths of winter. The performance was consistent all day.
I live in a very hilly area. Last winter; one set of wheels (rim worn) and three set of brake pads.
The weight doesn't bother me too much, as I could always cut down on the beer....maybe not.
+Bob Stevens Those bike industry people are such dicks, trying to make a living making bikes faster, safer and more fun to ride.
Lets try an aluminum rim, cuz i dont know anyone with carbon rims...
You've got more than enough power to skid with either of them, so the one that delivers more consistency is going to yield more *usable* braking power. I thought it was common sense that discs were better, I guess not though.
swapping riders and do a fairer test please, then repeat with Shimano variants. Also Reynolds are optimised with their blue pads for rim brakes
Chan Joseph We were using the blue pads, and yes to get a really clear picture we would need to repeat with lots of bikes, lots of riders, and lots of conditions. But, it's a start!
Global Cycling Network
And of course come up with a way of making sure neither rider knows which type of brakes they're using.
splashstrike Why would that matter?
+Global Cycling Network sorry to be nitpicking, the swapping of riders is to eliminate the difference in braking techniques. imo DA9000 rims brakes with Alu tracks should be somewhere between these times. yea that shimano vs sram, hydraulic or rim brakes comparison belong in a separate video altogether, with your influence I think alot of people will base their next disc-equip bike purchase with the outcome ;)
+motorpsykler to avoid a placebo effect, if someone tells you you've got the best brakes you believe it and expect to stop a shorter distance.
Google 'double blind trials'
Ok Guys what about the most important matter?The temperature reach during a long brake during a descent? That will make the big gat between the traditional calipers and the disc brakes!
Barny Short well failed disks means less/no braking, while failed rims means melted inner tubes and complete lack of control.
I'm sure I remember Simon saying something about how he doesn't understand why people insist on wearing a cap under their aero helmets?
Rory Mackay More on this coming up, but Si is a big advocate, Matt is very anti!
+Global Cycling Network I've changed my views on disc brakes after talking to company executives, mechanics and retailers again. They hid behind maintenance, little extra weight and warping. Turns out, most are traditionalist and just like rim brakes. They like the look and are "comfortable" with rim brakes for years and years. My opinion has changed. I'm not a fan of the look. (looks slightly like it's a accessory on a child's bike) It's clearly better technology and should have been introduced 15 years ago minimum. Can't figure out why. They have a lot of catching up to do. Good video.
Global Cycling Network Hail to the cap!
+ HaNooo
In the 1970s Shimano had disc brakes on road bikes. The technology wasn't accepted and people kept their rim brakes. Manufacturers tried multiple times to introduce them for both mtn and road bikes and finally they've been adopted. No manufacturer is going to keep making something if no one buys it...
Rory Mackay I agree. The technology wasn't up to snuff back then. Disc brakes aren't accepted by the cycling tour(s). I really don't care about the Tours or bicycle racing. (isn't cool to say bicycle....thsts what they are) Yes, racing pushes the tech and other things but, also ruins the enjoyment. Companies know that humans will only ride what is within the rules in professional cycling. Like golf or surfing. Both the same thing and ruining the enjoyment. I want a heavier bicycle that is more efficient and comfortable. I don't want a bicycle that makes it easier for me to get a worse workout. Disc brakes just make it safer. Now everything has a cost. If they added $1000 Or £1000 let's say, the majority of the masses wouldn't buy or accept the tech. Since it really doesn't add cost and stops more efficiently, then yes. Teams don't like them with 100 bicycles per team because they are harder to work on currently and add a little bit if weight. (weight really isn't a factor because they can take it from the frame or somewhere else) Reliability, efficiency to a point and safety should be the only factors when choosing a road bike. 99.999999% of even cyclists don't ride on the Tour or competitively, yet they have all this crap and manufactured adhere to the rules and limits because they know the human animal only likes what the "pros" ride. $$$$$/£££££ A bicycle that lasts 20 years, is safe, efficient etc...isnt in the best interest of sales. Wireless shifters, 10lb bicycles, power meters? Nobody should want any of that. Aesthetics are actually very important to even me and need to be considered. If disc brakes appeared extremely ugly to the masses, they would be phased out. 10 years ago disc brakes should have been worked on and put into place on the Tour, which would trickle down. It is better tech and actually improves aesthetics to me. (I could have summed this up in 4 sentences....I had 5 minutes to occupy:) GCN shows all the bicycles but, never yells you the COST. These are car level priced bicycles with all the accutramonts. Bicycles used to be $500 £500 at most 20 years ago. Inflation isn't 10 times since then. What next? Electric motors on the Tour?
Disc breaks come in handy in the wet.
I think that was not a good test, you should at least have swapped the bikes and test it again, because lyod was always on the disc bike and maybe he is just better in bike handling, and where were the really bad conditions? I was down in the alps in France 2 weeks ago, we went down alp d'huez in a thunder storm with 10cm water on the roads, and well i pulled the brake Lever and nothing happened for 5 seconds....
Yes, I missed the bike swap too. This way it looked like a disc brake promo - but I prefer them over rim brakes any day. :)
Swapped bikes, and used aluminum rim braking surface...since that's what most people ride 99% of the time.
Discs tend to grab harder in the rain if anything.
3:09 - nice screeching noise.
I honestly can't understand why NOT use disks. They brake faster and demand less force, with the great benefit of you being able to modulate the force necessary on the levers in a much more efficient way. Yes, they are a tad heavier them a good rim brake, but come on, I rather have a bike that weighs just a little more but is able to stop faster than splatting myself against a car.
Luciano U. Werner Yes, because up 'till now rim brakes have been THE number 1 cause for tons of road racers splatting themselfs into cars...
Luciano U. Werner I lock up the rear wheel rather quickly with discs and that's why... Too much braking power too soon, can't get used to it.
David Zhang you might just need to do some adjustments on the brakes
Luciano U. Werner I've been using a CX bike with mechanical discs for road all summer. I love the feel. Setup is easy. I don't experience squeel or noise. I don't mind the extra weight. But something you don't see talked a lot about is that the high speeds in road cycling chew through pads extremely fast, even with metallics. I don't think MTB and CX see nearly the wear and tear that pads experience when having to slow from 50-60mph over and over. If you live in an area with a lot of climbing/descending you can go out with great feeling brakes, come back 5 hours later with not much pad left. I think this is going to be an issue.
Shake Shaker This is the second year I've been using mechanical discs on a CX commuter. Today it was raining and I did notice a different in braking performance. It was not much worse but I initially noticed less performance. And they scream in the wet. Lever feel is good once the pads bite but that is at least 50% of the lever travel. I'm not impressed by the mechanical discs at all. I go through pads every 6 months as well. I also have a rim brake road bike with Reynolds carbon wheels and those power pads they have it this video. I have to say I have managed to dodge the wet riding with it but in the dry the brakes are no problem at all and far less maintenance.
I'd like to see a video where the riders makes a timed descent in the rain with rim brakes and then the same rider, same descent in the rain with disc brakes.
surely both brakes can lock the wheels instantly. the limiting factors will only be the grip of the tyres and the ability to give the lever a decent pull and not go over the bars.
The only time I've gone over the bars was with overly grippy front rim brakes. Very poor modulation resulted in the brakes locking the front wheel and over I went. Three times on one of my bikes (now converted to my grocery getter). With the disc brakes, I've never locked my front wheel and it certainly feels like I have much more fine control over both front and back brakes. At nearly fifty years old, I'm not keen to land on my back with a bicycle on top of me again.
Without both of you wearing the same helmets how will we ever really know how much of the distance difference was due to the brakes? ;)
i swear disc brakes saved my life, i was pedaling and about to cross the road and a van came, i immediately slammed both front and rear brakes and i was leaning forward because of the force these brakes can give and i managed to stop just in time and the driver was laughing i was laughing
I have used both disc and rim brakes and when I need to stop quickly, the brake type has nothing to do with how long the breaking distance is. This is because both brakes types lock the wheels and only the tyres and the road type (plus your speed, weight and wind) affects the breaking distance. Disc brakes are more easy to maintain though because you don't need to continuously adjust them as you need with rim brakes when they wear out.
I love all the people in the comments saying how this wasn't an accurate test. Seriously, when was the last time GCN did an accurate scientific test? I wasn't aware that this is where people come for that sort of thing rather than the goofy/moderately informative videos I come here for.
Surely it's not a useful test if both riders lock their wheels? At that point neither set of brakes is changing the stopping distance, that's all down to the rear wheel, tyre and the skill of the rider.
The only situation where that's useful is if you are intending to rely on locking the wheel, and the test is to see which of the brakes is actually able to do it. Was that the point?
I love the screech of disc brakes in the wet. Admittedly, I only have them on my hardtail. Still, if you DO have to make an emergency stop, it does seem to me like it's a good idea to announce your presence to the world in general and to the reason you are stopping in particular in a different way than shouting something short and socially unacceptable.
What about alloy rims vs discs? I use Hed Jet wheels with swissstop of green pads, I never have any problems stopping.
so the conclusion of this video for you guys is that if you are not pro rider and you use your bike for commuting and recreational longer rides and don't have founds for high level carbon bikes it's just fine to use rim brakes, the difference in performance won't take away the fun of riding your bike in every condition
nope, I used to bike to Uni every day for 3 years on my *modified to be* racing bike. When actually raining, you've got 3-5 meters when you brake where nothing happens and THEN it starts to brakes. I can't tell you how unsafe I flet when biking under rain
The added weight with disc brakes is not just the brakes, but the beefed up frames, more robust wheels with more spokes and rotors/rotor bolts, etc. Road discs need time to mature not just for performance as it's just MTB tech after all, but for standards to be established - flat mount, screw thru, rotor size, etc. In a couple of years we will look back at rim brakes and laugh, like we do on MTB's! My new Spesh bought this year was still rim brakes through!!
I love the disk brakes on my cx/commuter bike. I can't imagine trading them for canti brakes at all anymore. The extra security of all weather stopping power is worth the sacrifice of a little extra weight in my opinion. Also, coming from being primarily a mountain biker, I think they look great on a road bike!
I love disc brakes, have used both for years and overall I'd stake my safety on disc brakes. By the way, who else felt quesy looking at these grown men in spanks and padded undies? *shudder*
Do it fair with Dura Ace 9010 Brakes against Shimano's discs
Max Wu yeah man. Shimano BR517's. I got a set on my single speed conversion and they are epic brakes.
Roadies are only now beginning to realise what mountain bikers have known for nearly 20yrs, don't worry, we'll explain as we go and talk you through it😉
No, the most powerful rim breaks are actually alloy, carbon rims have been a significant disappointment in modern advancements.
Why would you want the rim to break?
rustler08 better aerodynamics, lighter weight, cheaper.
2-3 meters differential might not be huge but if you really think about it, it could be the difference between completely running over a poor puppy or just having a near miss
Ride slower, be more aware of your surrounds/conditions, people riding discs from rim brakes highlight risk compensation at work and then find out the limits of their braking aren't in fact the discs at all.
having been out riding in heavy rain or thunderstorm, rim breaks on wet down hill is quite scary and dangerous. on more than one occasion, it's was a white knuckle descent.
Naligaw k po yata
Was it a hydraulic or mechanical disc brake? Would be nice to see a difference between rim and mechanical disc brakes.
Well I feel good now (as I did beforehand) about having rim brakes on my road bike which doesn't see much rain or poor surface road, and disc brakes on my cross bike, which sees rain and winter duty.
I think a lot of people are confused about disk brakes having more stopping power. At low speeds, yes, the bike's deceleration is limited by the tire's friction with the ground. However, at higher speeds and on long descents, deceleration is limited by the brake's ability to dissipate the energy it's absorbing. Most braking is not intended to stop the bike, but to slow it from its top speed for a turn or obstacle. A disk brake keeps working up to a much higher temperature than a rim brake, so it can get rid of heat much faster. This is the crux of why they have more stopping power.
awesome
Coefficient of friction tends to increase as heat increases - www.labthinkinternational.com/literatures/influence-of-temperature-on-coefficient-of-friction.html
Yes, but that is not related to the stopping power of either braking system because the limiting interface is between the tires and the road, and neither of those dissipates heat during braking.
one time me and my friend slowly rode down a very steep rocky hill and when we go to the bottom our rims were too hot to touch
Disks have so much less heat capacity and surface and they are not better for that reason.
Now try to brake as hard as you can without locking rear wheel while descending at 30kph on very bad winding road where a mistake can cost you your life. This is when hydro brakes uncover all their potential. But rim brakes are OK if you ride almost straight roads and use them only to slow down a little bit or to stop completely.
Can agree partially, I run mechanical disc front and do a 500m 60+ km/h 15% grade decent DAILY as part of my commute (my weight is 240lbs), at the end of it is a stop sign leading to an overpass which adjoins a six-lane death trap (bottom of Main Ave, Halifax). Different disc calipers make the difference too (cheapy OEM china shit disc caliper didn't stop me, but my MX2s work a treat). Just changed to SNAIL floating rotor on the front... will find out how that works compared to the stocker (which has been blued from the abuse on this hill).
flawed science.
should have swapped riders/ bikes and taken the average for each 'condition'
Also comparing carbon rim to metal disc is not like for like. Motorsport racers remove carbon discs in wet weather due to loss of braking power.
should have been carbon rim - carbon disc or metal rim - metal disc.
I get what you are trying to show, but you could have easily implemented greater controls for consistency.
Also if disc brakes are like the ones on my MTB you can keep them, sick of re-aligning them.
1:51 WTF is up with his pelvis/groin region on the front? looks weird af! HAHAHA
The real question is, why were you looking at it in the first place? ;)
Morrron
yeah bullshit, get proper quality run brakes and I will outbreaks anyone, it depends on the rider
proper quality pads on disc brakes will out perform proper quality traditional brakes. I bet you think drum brakes are better on cars too.
Forget all the un-scientific babble. Torque physics says rim brakes are at least 3-4 times more powerful per pound of pressure assuming similar co-efficient of friction. This is due to larger distance from hub. However I admit in drenching wet conditions, as rim gets splashed, the advantage could be lost completely and reversed to favour discs.
except that the force you apply to a hydraulic disc brake is diferent in output force than the force you apply to a cable rim brake.
hydraulics exhert alot more pressure.
That sounds rather like unscientific babble. IF the coefficient of friction were the same, and it is most definitely NOT, then the torque equals the radius times the force. Let's assume a rim diameter of somewhere around 622 mm. Common disc brake rotors come in a wide range of diameters, ~ 140-200 mm. If you assume the force is the same, then your assumption of 3-4 times more torque per pound of pressure seems to be in the ballpark. But unless you are using the same brake lever, lever arm, and a mechanical system to apply pressure to the rotor as you do to the rim, your model falls apart. The assumption about the force applied by the brake mechanism is wrong. Modern bike disc brakes are hydraulic. They do not use a simple slightly springy cable and lever to multiply the force from your hands to apply to the wheel. They use a hydraulic piston system to apply far more force to the brake disc than the cantilever or v-brakes can apply to a rim. The fact that rim brakes often use levers that allow a full three or four finger grip and disc brakes often are size for at most two fingers also allows a better grip on the bar whilst you are stopping so you can stop with much better control.
+Phil Hatton Interesting. Hence hydraulics of disc systems are probably magnifying pressure by factor of 3-4. My point is no physics mentioned in video. Also their test not at all controlled hence unscientific. What should have happened: 2 bikes of the same make are installed one with rim, the other with disc. The same person accelerates to the same speed using a smart app-linked speedometer. Then upon reaching a given speed and passing a pointer on the road, brakes fully. The app will give you exactly how quickly your speed reached zero hence good data.
@@PhilHattonMakesStuff Well then the test is on unfair grounds anyway. I can get hydraulic rim brakes if I wanted to, compare apples to apples. Cable to cable. Hydraulic to Hydraulic.
I do not want to deal with hydraulic brake lines on a bike, and I can brake hard enough to lose traction as it is already with rim brakes.
I have some questions. which one wears out more quickly? I have disc brakes on my electric scooter and let me tell you that those pads wear out very quickly. Also, when the disc breaks do wear out it locks against the rotor making it impossible to move the wheel. So, it's apparent that disc brakes wear out twice as fast as rim brakes in order for the rider to make another purchase. Another side note you can barely see the pads on disc brakes. We have been utilizing rim for for decades now and they seem to work just fine. This story reminds me of the all to common debate between Aluminum alloy vs carbon fiber. which one is better? Carbon fiber cost these factories less to make them but they charge the rider more money and it's less sturdy. Aluminum alloy is the exact opposite. When you get into a car accident which one will suffer more damage? Carbon fiber because carbon fiber doesn't bend like aluminum alloy can.
how big would be the difference between alloy rims and discs? most people ride rims with alloy brake tracks...
Bought 5 rim brake bikes, and stored them. Obviously alloy rims (not carbon). So I won't ever have to buy another new bike. Sorry, but no disc brakes for me. You ride them, I don't mind.
ultimately doesnt it come down to the riders ability to control his braking so that wheels dont lock up like in a cars abs system
Ikr
Sram caliper brakes are widely criticised though. I use Ultegra and the stopping power is phenomenal.
How about a test between rim/disc and the hydraulic equivalent(s) of each?
2, 4, 7m difference doesn't mean anything, you should relate those numbers to the total breaking distance !
What about the stopping power of alloy rims - its well known that they are significantly better than their carbon equivalents. It is very interesting to see this direct comparison however!!!
It has finally came to the stage that most rim diehards have accepted (or silently admitted) that disc is better than rim so very soon they will be widely regarded as an inferior braking system. Long live rim brakes as we will still see them in the future but definitely only on cheaper and lower end bikes.
I'm going to guess you're going to get a lot of "what about carbon wheels with aluminum/aluminium brake surface?"
those wheels are not good.....the stiffness is not as good as a full carbon rim...yes it breakes betters but if you are racing doing crits and road races then you want the best.
renato muu Not totally true. My Reynolds tubulars are nowhere near as good as my Ksyrium SLS wheels in stiffness.
llandor It's been proven that the aluminum surface is better, especially in poor weather conditions and what a crock about full carbon. They more popular with racers because they weigh less which allows the rider to have more options in components and stay as close the UCI minimum weight limit. No one lost of won a crit because of either.
renato muu Aluminum rims have been stiff enough for pro racers for many decades, and most people are nowhere near as fast as them.
use your damn foot ... install carbon ceramic on your heels of your shoes .
disc brakes aren't always necessary, my bmw 3 series has disk on the front and drums in the rear
+john smith
80% of the braking is through the front brake of a car and similar for a bike.....
It uses brembo brake
+john smith have you driven a car with just drum brakes? It's really scary
AssGobbler5000 nope, I can't feel the difference,
+AssGobbler5000 lol I had a car with all drum brakes it was a 1991 pug 309 diesel very scary it just wouldn't stop lol had to use the engine to slow down
disc brakes are over rated.. unless you do downhill..
Does Simon or Dan weigh more? If so this test isn't quite right! I think the test again and switch bikes :)
+Antony Stevens I think we mentioned it at the start of the video, but we weigh almost the same, give or take a few hundred grams.
Dan
Global Cycling Network switching riders (or just having one rider) would have accounted for differences in braking technique and reaction time. You guys might want to consider this in future tests.
I live in Utah and ride the steep canyons you guys saw in the tour of Utah regularly. One thing that definitely is better with disks are long descents. where rim brakes would fade and be marginal at best, disks are the same no matter how hot they get. In real world testing , there is no comparison, disks are better in everyway. imagine going back to cantilever brakes on your mountain bike, no way in hell.
I'm a mountain biker but have recently dabbled in road cycling. I haven't bought a dedicated road bike yet, but I have been using a cyclocross bike that is equipped with discs. I have done a few road rides with friends that are on road bikes with rim brakes, and I am always the fastest on descents because I can brake later and more confidently when going into corners. I love the modulation that discs provide and would never even consider buying a road bike that wasn't equipped with discs.
100euros I think this is what it is all about. CX started to get into the press a couple of years before mechanical discs came to CX. CX existed before then but it was mainly for people who enjoy camping. But what it has done is form a bridge between mountain biking and road biking. For mountain bikers to try CX and then road biking they must have fat tyres and disc brakes otherwise it's a non starter. And thats exactly how it has gone. And of course a bridge works both ways. Road bikers can now cross over to mountain biking.
*****
"CX existed before then but it was mainly for people who enjoy camping."
if this doesn't unintentionally win GCN Comment of the Week (Year?) i don't know what is wrong with the world.
nobodiesbusiness I second that!!! hahaha
Uhh rim brake is called power brake
Least scientific test I've ever seen.
Disk are way better! Why? here is a scenario Oh No.. your wheel or your rim buckled.
With rim brakes, due to their using the rim to stop, now one of those pads is rubbing the brake, locking it up and guess what....you are now on the ground with some road rash because your rim brakes tossed you over when the wheel was instantly locked up due to the rim bucking and thus the pad STOPPED you in a split second the moment it hit the rim.
Disk have you had this at the time, would NOT LOCK UP since they are at the HUB of the wheel and thus you can still go forward so long as the rim does not bend further than it already has. But if it bends more out of alignment than the width of the fork where the rim sits you are going to get flipped if you do not apply your still aligned and working correctly disk brake in time to stop or slow down enough before the rim hits the fork.
Worst case scenario for both brakes, your rim splits in the bent area then you are really screwed, due to that is where the weakness or unnoticeable defect in the metal was.
Then there is the type of cycle, if it was a trike either delta where the rim brakes would work up front but not in the back unless you went with the Lighfoot Cycles design. In a tadpole the rear wheel is where the rim brake would be but would NOT work on the front tires at all unless you had some homebuilt with bicycle forks for the wheels. As for a quadra/quad cycle, the disk is the ONLY way yo go on that cycle setup, not even Lightfoot Cycle would ever use a rim brake on their ATC or ATO (Fat Tire version of ATC) in the rear.
Well, same thing applies to disc brake, it's just that bending the disc is actually easier. Way back when, it used to be a common problem and reason why many people didn't want to make a switch.
Also, for a rim brake to lock up in the way you're describing, it would have to be a really extreme scenario, one in which you'd probably get stopped by the terrain itself. The calipers can move pretty far in either direction. On a disc brake, that's a different story. The pads can't move any further back and the caliper itself will stay put no matter what. So a bent disc is way more likely to cause a lockup.
Physics wise, Rim brakes are technically better. You have more surface area for more 'stopping' power, and you have a more direct force applied to the rotational force which is technically better. Disk brakes have to transfer that energy through the spokes, to the rim to the tire. Added with less frictional surface area that would heat up faster and be less efficient. This is with the same amount of force applied. Now, with a friction reducer or application of lubrication the rim brake fails because the disk brake is elevated and less likely to contact those elements, remaining dry. Especially with the same force applied. That's the biggest differential here, I bet in this case there is simply more force applied to the disk brake than the rim brake. So, not really a fair comparison.
I agree, but if rim brake gets wet he should press harder... otherwise dumb comparison, and with the force, disk brakes have significantly higner pressure
An important benefit of disc brakes Vs rim brakes is the precision of the disc. Wheel rims and brake blocks need a fairly large gap to operate without dragging. Rims are never perfectly true. That gap uses up lever action so when you do get some contact and bite you cant have the same amount of mechanical advantage you get with discs. Closer tolerances, smaller gap, = more mechanical advantage. this can make up for the lack of radius on the disc.
One of the things I love about hydraulic disc brakes is simply how consistent they feel. They will pretty much always feel nice and smooth.
I was going to say it similarly. The disc brakes do have to transfer the force through the spokes, putting my more strain on the entire wheel. I'm not sure if this comparison was entirely fair, since the rider with the rim brakes was routinely blocking his wheels, which is far less effective than not skidding the tire. Had he kept it just before the point of skidding the wheel, I'm sure the results would be much more similar. That said, maybe we just need better ways of controlling the rim brakes.
yeah right. that's why cars stuck to drum brakes.
You should have also swapped bikes and done the same test again. Possibly have standard wheels also would be interesting using middle of the range bikes with disc and rim.
Great video otherwise.
For MTB disc brakes are far from the ground, and so they are interesting due the mud and water which can interfere more in durability and adhesion of the brake pads which are in contact of the rims. About the video, if they intended to do a comparison of the stopping distances, they would have drawn a stripe in the floor, and the same ciclist would brake starting from a duly speed and marking the final distance...
I Bet the mayor diferences becomes when rainning. cause the brake pads and rim are wet. under those circunstances I have no doubt that Discs Brakes perform better.
Indeed the wet muddy conditions are where disc brakes shine the most.
Rimbrakes are not particularly great when it comes to repeated stops, where you could probably blow out your tires from the heat buildup...
1 flow on effect that isn't mentioned is the difference in spokes. With rim brakes the braking isn't transferred through the spokes. With disc brakes the braking force needs to be transferred through the rotor, to the hub and then through the spokes to the rim and hence the tyres. Heavier and/or more spokes are required for comparative braking power.
Don't think so I'm no engineer but...spin a wheel off the ground and try stopping the wheel with your fingers at the hub,try it again stopping the wheel at the rim.The rims distance from the hub (centre of rotation) acts as an effective lever..put it another way a child's roundabout in a playground is spinning dangerously fast,to stop it are you going to grab the central axle or a rail at its circumference ? Sure its different for cars and trucks wheels their diameters are less and there's far more surface area grip.
Further more I dipped into most of the major cycling tours this season...and didn't see one disc brake,not even in wet weather....not even in wet weather with mountain descents...perhaps I just missed it?
OK, how many more years before they put anti-lock brakes on bikes?
So, when you guys wear all those logos on your shirts do the advertiser pay you for it? If not, then why do you wear shirts with logos blazen all over them. Aren't there good looking shirts that just have pleasant colors rather than all that commercialism?
Try really wet weather test in Bonnie Scotland !! :-)
Fixied bike is the best one!!!!
Don't buy rim brakes unless there is coaster brake. Disc brakes are expensive but worth it. However drum brakes are best when combined with stronger brake because they don't need maintenance for decades. While V brakes can quickly destroy rims and not work in wet considitions.
Please... swap riders. Obviously seen, that brake technic from each rider is a lot different. Daniel's technic is a lot more effective, taking more mass to the rear, and evenly distributing it for both wheels, instead of Simon, loading the front wheel much easier, always locking and lifting the rear and loosing lots of grip. So... Just by watching, taking all that in to account, rim brakes done it very good. Now... swap riders please.
As a noob coming from two seater sports cars and Nissan Skylines, I had to have hydraulic disc brakes.
I can't imagine that the feel of mechanical brakes would be anywhere near as good or consistent.
Now I'm saving for a Di2 bike so the consistency extends to the gear changes... hopefully it'll mean I have my perfect bike.
Di2 with hydrolo discs? Ive got claris 3x with rims thats anyones perfect bike
*rim brakes*
Cantilever rim brakes on my bike, I can easily lock up both weeks and also have a lot of control over how much braking force I have.
Never wear fitted cycling clothes if you weigh less than a bulimic person..😂😂
what are the brakes that u pedal backwards and it stops
dam mar coaster breaks