V30 Follow Up: A Deep Dive on the "New" Celestion Vintage 30
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Ahoi! I am back with more Vintage 30 content. If you haven't seen the probably biggest Vintage 30 shootout in the world, maybe check it out here first: • World's BIGGEST Celest...
Anyway, I wasn't satisfied with the data I had on the "new" Vintage 30s (according to Glenn Fricker) from that big test. I wasn't comfortable drawing any definitive conclusions so I bought four more new Vintage 30s to increase the sample size. I received two from February 2022 and two from December 2022. I got results that I didn't expect.
Since several people have asked now - If you want to support me, buy me a cup of coffee or want to help me collect all the V30s in the world, you can send me a buck or two here
paypal.me/theotherjohnbrowne
Feel free to write some profanity in the message
Gear I used for this: My 2009 Gibson SG Raw Power with a Seymour Duncan Black Winter in the bridge, a Two Notes Torpedo Live for DI tracking and reamping, an Audient ID44 mk II as an interface, a Victory Kraken VX amp for the sound samples, a KSR PA50 power amp for the sweeps, Room EQ Wizard, Reaper, bx Cleansweep pro, Nugen AB Assist and Voxengo Span Plus for the analysis.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:31 Test setup
03:39 Analysis description
06:21 Sound sample analysis
06:23 Comparing the sounds of the 2000 and 2019 references
07:28 Speaker #49 2021-A sound sample
08:40 Speaker #50 2021-B sound sample
09:38 Speaker Feb 2022-A sound sample
10:35 Speaker Feb 2022-B sound sample
11:15 Speaker Dec 2022-A sound sample
12:10 Speaker Dec 2022-B sound sample
12:56 Analysis of the REW graphs
15:54 My personal conclusions
18:48 What's next? 
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Influencers like Glenn Fricker really ought to be more careful when they create hype like that, even if unintentional. This video was great- thanks for the thorough work you put in.
Maybe they're paid to do that...
It is THE John Browne, the other one feels more like advertiser to me, while this is Johan Segeborn science level :D
Just being mentioned in the same sentence as Johan Segeborn is a top tier compliment!
@@TheOtherJohnBrowneu deserve it man, your videos are great I discovered your channel about a month ago just because I wanted a reference for the sound of a Laney VHR 100R and decided i liked the character of the vhr over the ironheart also on reverb was 150 dollars cheaper used
The determination and dedication to the science is incredible. The channel is criminally underrated. Great job man. We thank you!
Thank you! I appreciate the comment a lot
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne I don't understand "WHY" you pretend that 2 woofers sound "exactly the same" in the 5 kHz region... 🙄
Until up to 1 kHz the MATCH perfectly! Why this n0n-sense obsession??
He's showing the significance of the 5-6kHz range.
In time I feel this investment will have paid off. This channel is underrated, these videos alone bring soo much to light
You're a lunatic and I'm here for it
Thank you for doing this. Signed - Everyone
MY BODY IS READY
It's the never ending V30 quest
Fascinating video, well produced, and informative. I use a Modeler (HX Stomp), and about a year ago was having trouble taming fizziness on many of my Presets. Brian Wampler replied to one of my comments, and informed me that most guitar speakers have a significant reduction in the frequency response at around 5kHz. This is something I was unaware of at the time. The Speaker Block default "High Cut" on the HX Stomp is set at 8kHz. Lowering the High Cut to 5kHz got rid of the fizziness.
Your tests and comparisons really highlight how significant the 5-6kHz range is. Thanks
nice. I've had issues with IR's till i heard the same thing you've learnt. worlds of difference in obtaining a more natural speaker tone
Good! That's why it's always good to have a broad knowledge of the stuff that makes up the signal chain. May be some lost knowledge if you dive right in to the digital stuff.
I randomly bought a half price v30 from a local store and it is one of these early XXa code cones. Luck of the draw indeed
Highly underrated channel. Sense of humor is gold.
Thanks again, mate. You are a true champion of tone. Looking forward to the break-in test!
Great Work, thanks!
great job, really like to hear the break in results
Dude, this is dedication! Well done and thank you!
Thanks, man! Appreciate it!
Legendary stuff man, great video again!
Thanks, mate!
I love this!! Thank you.
You sir are a madman. Thanks for trying to get to the bottom of this.
Again, an absolutely fantastic video, and this time more concise, more to the point and sprinkled again with your personality and humour. Enjoyed it alot!
Thanks, mate! Much appreciated!
I just checked and the two I have in a 2x12 do indeed start with Z.
first video i've seen on this channel, instantly subscribed. this is proper work and extremely helpful. thanks you very much for your effort.
Thanks mate! I appreciate it a lot!
Great effort and product.
Wow . This so awesome🎉
Great video thanks for clearing that Fricker nonsense up.
Also, really looking forward to the break in test. I really think with your methodology the debate will be settled, finally.
Excellent work again my friend. I absolutely love your scientific approach. As said above, youre the German Johan Segeborn.
Thank you. Nice video.
Subscribed and will be looking out for that speaker break-in video 🤘
Awesome!
Thank you
At every mention of sample size I was wondering what your shopping cart at various dealers looks like...
Seriously though - that level of dedication and detail is just insane - and thus naturally greatly appreciated!
Having gotten new speakers this year I haven't been able to place my finger on the whole break-in topic though - so I'd love to see that!
Cheers mate!
I will be doing that.
Yeah, honestly, this endeavour has been a financial catastrophe and is not sutainable 😂
I hate to buy gear new but I just had to go down this rabbit hole. I had a lot of fun so no regrets but this has been anything than profitable financially
awesome video!
Just ordered a september 2021 Z09-444 cone code speaker, here’s to hoping it’s a good one. Thank you for all the hard work on the vid!
I'm very confident you'll like that one! Great score! Congrats!
Thank you!!
I just got myself the same speaker. Awesome information. got my sub.
Awesome! Thanks, man
Love your analysis on these speakers as the controversy continues. Unfortunately, most of us that are in the market for the correct version of the V30 don't have an opportunity to look at serial numbers before buying. Maybe in the used market, but not for new, at least this is my perception. The break-in speaker period vid you have planned should be an eye-opener as well! Thanks, John!
Thanks man! Yes, it's very much luck of the draw with new speakers. I ordered the xix new speakers between April and June of this year and their production dates are up to 16 months apart
I have a set of 1987.2000,2003,and 2019 V30’s…Mine are all the Marshall variant,but they do all sound a little different…I have two from 2000 that sound smoother than all the rest…I didn’t go down the rabbit hole to the extent you did,but I started out trying to match my 87’s….then I found out the 87’s were my least favorite,Lol!!anyway,great video…Looking forward to the break in video..
Can't wait for a broke in speaker comparison, keep up the great work John!
Thank you! I appreciate it.
Yeah, the break in test is a bit delayed because I ran into some technical issues but I'm back on track
looking forward to the break in test
Great test and analysis. Admittedly not a large sample, but much larger than most of us would have done. Speaker break in especially with the Vintage 30 would be nice to see. I have heard it, but not graphed it, and with a much smaller sample size.
I would love to see the break-in test!
I'm preparing it right now. I have another reamp box on the way wo my primary one isn't tied up for several weeks. As soon as that's here, the process can start
My hat goes off to you for the your hard work on setting this up, doing the work and analysis and sharing your results. What you're video shows is a few things, and you are correct in pointing out that your sample size is too small to make definitive statements, but the main thing is tolerances during manufacturing.
Speaker cones are made from paper and trying to get a composite material like paper to be absolutely identical from batch to batch will be impossible. Each cone will have variances at a cellular level, and there is nothing we can do about that. The luck of the draw analysis is probably the correct one. It was a good analysis to identify that the dust cap is not responsible for this audible change, but the cone itself.
Considering our ears are most sensitive to the 2-5kHz region (+/-), this is probably the downfall of trying to find the perfect V30 speaker and expecting that any new off-the-shelf production V30 will be so smooth. That approx. 5-6kHz spike in some V30s is what makes them sound harsh and therefore so different from the 'golden' V30.
But, now that I know the 5-6kHz range can be problematic, I can probably correct some of that spike by either using an EQ pedal in my amp's FX loop and cut the 5-6kHz range to minimize how much of those frequencies I push into the speaker, or do the same with post-eq in my DAW.
Thank you, good sir! I think your comment is absolutely on point!
Thank you so much getting deep geek with this stuff and sharing with us.
I try to think sounds as a complete product where single elements in the whole signal chain have diminishing roles. I have built a few cabs myself, recorded them in various settings and trying to make actual DATA for me to study. Too bad I have nothing saved but a CONCLUSION which your videos give support to: with speakers having this kind of differences between them, the whole difference can be thrown out the window when using a single SM57 as a mic and placing the mic a few millimeters here or there. I just ordered a brand new V30 and excited to see the batch numbers and perhaps making a signal-sweep to measure it and have a look at that 5kHz area
You are absolutely correct in my opinion! I'd love to hear back from you once you've tested your new V30
Id be interested to see breakin and see if that makes any tonal changes.
I will be starting that test shortly. Stay tuned
Glad I found this vid. I have one of the newer ones that sound great. Was thinking of selling it because its 16 ohm and I need an 8. Think I’ll keep it now!
Yeah... I'd hold on to that
What a nerd.....I love it!! Great experiment. Brilliant and damn interesting!!
Thank you!
Absolute madman/legend, and the best videos on youtube for the discerning tone junkie.. Would the real John Browne please stand up!
Also, i am keen to see/hear the D-Moll get some love with your great riffs mate if you find an excuse or another amp to shoot it against! Keep killing it John!
Thanks, mate! I really appreciate it.
Don't worry. The D-Moll shall return. I have two ideas lined up:
D-Moll vs Fireball (idea credit goes to Behavioural Sink). In a mix and analysis of their mid voicings. I like that as those are Diezels and Engls "entry level" metal amps (if ypu can even say that). I will definitely be doing that at some point.
The other idea is D-Moll vs Diezels big 3 (VH4, Herbert & Hagen) but I am still on the fence on that one
@TheOtherJohnBrowne I look forward to the Fireball comparison. Both would be entertaining with your antics mate(like the valve boxes thrown at the Herbert) haha Great work!!
@@smithy289 lol. Glad you enjoyed that. I don't care to admit how much I made myself laugh with that stupid bit
i think that diffrence is made by used glue :) they probably changed it - stiffer or softer suspension of the membrane has a big impact on tone
I'd really like to see/hear the break in process you've discussed trying to capture. It would be very insightful, or complete myth-busting.
Break-in video would definitely be cool. I’ve always wondered if this is really true or just some audiophile BS.
I just bought an ENGL xxl cab with the "new" model v30s early 2022 with the see through dust caps and I have used the mesa cabs in the past with their uk version the new version in the engl sound great however I can not yet form an opinion on the newer v30s because one of my damn preamp tubes are microphonic so I must wait another week to crank my amp and decide. So far they sound at least as good as the v30s in the mesa cabs Ive used. I believe I have used some marshal cabs with the less liked chinese model and they did to me sound shrill and lacking in the bottom end but thats also probably because of the cabs they were in.
Congrats on the cab! The Engl XXL is amazing
Speaker break-in over time would be the thing to see!
That test will commence shortly. Just waiting for a second reamp box to arrive
But yes, the cone is the key... the reason why older vintage speakers change tone when reconed. So this makes a lot of sense!
Yup
Great video. “Spectre Debunked”😆
Recone experiment would be the cherry on the cake, no? Where you replace the cone of a speaker that is found sounding like modern V30’s with a cone from the Fricker batch and then find it sounds like an early 2000’s V30? 🤔
Yes, the older V30 with more 6kHz is more fizzy, but an SM57 peaks at 6kHz. The newer V30 might sound muffled with a flatter mic.
just from listening, I think that you are right the feb 2022 are closer to the old ones, but still I think the new ones sound better than the 2019 ones. That could be a total coincidence, but still, maybe they improved something.
Hi John! Thanks for all of your amazing work. I couldn't help but notice that like myself, you also have a TwoNotes Torpedo Reload. It is seldom picked as a "shoot-out winner" against things like the Suhr Reactive Load but I am curious to know your thoughts on it. Obviously, it has far more features but if you have any insights of observations to share, I'd love to hear them.
I dunno man. Mendel bij de Leij did a shootout of various load boxes a few months ago of which one was a Two Notes Torpedo Reload and he gave it a favourable assessment. I think it is a great unit and I use it frequently.
I do however think that Two Notes missed a few opportunities to make it even sicker:
- It annoys me that it doesn't have a thru out for the DI feature. One has to route the signal out of the DAW back into the unit in order to play an amp at the same time and no matter how powerful your computer is, there will be some latency. With a thru out it could be used exactly like a regular DI box.
- I wish it had a thru out for a speaker cab. As it is you cannot bypass the internal load like you can on the Captor or Torpedo Live.
- I wish it had a line in for the onboard solid state power amp in order to use it on its own, kind of like the Fryette Powerstations have. With that it could be used as a power amp for preamps or be used to create IRs.
I am not familiar with the units internals but I can't imagine my three criticisms would have been crazy difficult or expensive to implement and with those three wishes, this already powerful unit would be insanely cool.
Absolutely love your deep dive stuff. Thank you for making the investment to find the truth! Now you need to go down the deep dive of reconing the ones that sound meh, see if they become magic.
And where to source cones from?
Incidentally I work in the paper industry so I'm curious to know what the composition is, and why the cones are so different 🤔
I believe it has both to do with the actual wood fibre that varies and changes to the production processes.
That is a few more deep dives in there. Let's see how restless I become 😂
Thanks for commenting!
The WGS Retro 30 is a v 30 with low mids. Best speakers i ever had...
I have two 4x12" cabs of them from 97'. Always loved them and glad i'm not in this "is it the same?"prob. LOL! Very diff sounding speakers for sure.
My 4x12 ENGL cab with V30 speakers from mid 96 is my favourite cab ever, so I'm not surprised.
Very interesting results, my most recent V30 is a 31A cone batch, lets hope it's a good one after i install it. Would love to see a before/after break in test, i do break them in before install with a looper as i don't actually play my guitars speakers that often so natural break in would take a long time.
Based on the cone batch no. I thinknit should be one of the smoother ones.
I'm about to start the break in test and I will be doing before, after and during sweeps and recordings
I‘m about to buy one with a41 cone. Hopefully this one is still a smoother one :)
Chances are it is. I'd love to hear back from you once you've tried it
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne will do! Thanks for all your work.
I finally got the chance to test the speaker and what can I say. It is finally a tone I can work with. Im so so happy. Thanks for all your work. For me it's safe to say the A41 cone is a smoother one. I finally can compete with Nolly's IRs or even get a better tone with my setup. Now it's time to shop another speaker for the bottom of my mesa cab to have a different flavour. So long!@@TheOtherJohnBrowne
Anyone else catch the Monty Python reference? 😂
Informative video. 👍🏻
You might only be the second person to do so
I don’t understand how some people get through life without repeatedly watching hours of MP sketches😮
Actually i seem to like the sound of the year 2000 speaker the best. However, if I were in the situation of having to buy one, I'd go for the 2019 model. The fizziness, that can be heard in your lab environment will be eaten away in the rehearsal room or on stage in no time, and there is alway the posibility of eq'ing things to your liking. And what isn't there can't be added afterwards, so if I should need all those high frequencies for whatever reason, they are there in the case of the 2019, but not so with all the others
Definitely do a “speaker break in test” next. Based on your thoughts are you able to at least summarise the proportion of v30s over the last 20 years that sound smoother in that presence area? Eg: is 10%, 50%? Etc etc. Thanks for making this excellent video. Regards.
I can't really quantify the amount but there seem to be two distinct clusters in production period. All of my speakers made between 2000 and 2003 have the smooth character. 2004 is hit or miss and 2001s seem to have the tendency to be quite dark.
The second cluster seems to be quite recent around 2021/2022. Look for cones of which the batch designation starts with Z or A (after the numbers for those).
how do you not have more subs
For break in, I suggest using lower bass frequencies for better break in. Just based on personal experience, true or not, debatable.
Appreciate the input!
Back in the old days, guys would slash the speaker cone for a "better" sound (Hendrix, for example), I wonder if modifications or different cones could help tailor the V30 better, or at least get something new and interesting out of them. I've heard cleaning some of the excess doping off with solvent can change the tone for the better.
What makes a cone sound good?
That question isn't easy to answer. I think the cone plays a massive role in that and I imagine it is the most difficult part to produce with consistently.
I would say stiffness and mass play a big role which are influenced by thickness, density of the fibres, fibre length, distribution and probably by the process used to form the cone.
Doping affects the tone too. The Bad Cat OEM V30s had their doping removed and they were the only OEM V30 that I was able to determine sounded a little different.
There are certain paints/doping you can brush onto the speakers that change the tone. Inversely, some people apply fine sandpaper to the cones to change the tone. Johan Segeborn did an experiment like that on his channel.
Ignacio from Jensen spoke about the effects of cone thickness in a video on Kohlekeller Studios youtube channel. Both videos are really worth watching
I bought 4 the beginning of 2022..all four start with Z.. I was pleasantly happy with them. I bought them to sell an empty Marshall cab I had..i sold the cab, kept the speakers..😂
Great score! Oddly, I had a similar experience. I wanted a cab for testing speakers in. I was going to sell the speakers once I had the cab but they were great Marshall G12 Vintages with Z cones from 2021 and I ended up keeping the all
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne it's such a nightmare. 😂
💸💸💸 flys away more than comes in.. 😂
Thanks for continuing to demystify the v30 mythology.. the celestion rep told me in an email months ago that they haven't changed a thing and any differences are natural from one speaker to the next. Oh and that goes for the supposed "mesa" version speaker too.
But that is clearly false, as evidenced by the change in dust caps.
@@sparella they are back using the regular dust caps now.. must have been a run of what they had.
Have you ever thought of modifying the fizziness on a v30 by removing some of the doping. I’ve also heard of people painting a thin layer of silicone I’ve the dust caps.
Just some fun thoughts.
I have not. That might be something worth looking into. Thanks
❤
I remember there's a ponit on the video we're you kinda change your mind due to what you're seeing, not hearing! I'm sure you know that's the most common error for sound engineers. I do it also, but I was fortune to start in the old analog/ tape world.
I changed my mind in regards to context. In the previous large test I had placed that speaker more with the 2004 to 2020 speakers but on further inspection it did sound smoother than those in this test.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne many shades of V30s and to me the vast majority sound pretty good and useful, if your willing to move some knobs (just a couple of dbs)!
100% agree
If you run pink noise into two speakers, and adjust one speaker to phase cancel the other, two identical speakers should be perceived as silent, right? They’re not identical but running the best against the worst should get progressively quieter as the bad speaker breaks in, right? Or running two nearly identical speakers out of phase to look for changes. Might not have to listen to the same loop for months, it’d possibly be quieter, might have the same end result by just looking for measurable change.
Great video! The one thing i'd still like to know is, since we now know the major difference is in the 5-6kHz range, can you eq the differences away? If yes, i wouldn't care too much about the batch. I'd just use some eq to get the sound i want.
I am not great at mixing so I can't say for sure. At the same time, I don't see a reason why not but supposedly it's best practice to get it right at the source level
A -5dB band shelf between 5 and 6k might do the trick.
Btw, most EQs are not capable of band shelves, especially such a narrow one.
Bro said “tone is in the cone".
Celestion just cobbles all their jank together with whatever they can get their hands on. Their quality control isn't thorough enough to say the least.
The phrase "cobbling jank together" is hilarious! Thank you for that!
I have a early 90s 1960 cab with 4 v30s in it, made in UK and they sounded like the 2019 models. Now i know theres not realy a "difference" with the mesa uk celestions. But the mesa sounds more like the early 2000s one.
Seems like the mass of the cone might impact the frequency response. If the highs are harsh, what would tape or drum dampening gel like moon gel do to the high frequencies? Differential effects of inertia and momentum on a cone’s frequency spectrum and whatnot.
I’m sometimes curious too about how the number of frequencies coming through a speaker affect any particular frequency, if at all.
Will a harsh and a soft speaker respond the same way to a sine way oscillating only one harsh frequency? Or do other simultaneous frequencies from the same speaker affect the harsh frequencies?
These are great questions for follow up tests. Reducing or increasing the cone mass definitely will affect the sound. That's why speaker doping is a thing. Johan Segeborn took some sandpaper to a Greenback reissue in one of his vids a few years ago and the effect that had was very noticeable if I recall correctly.
Meant to ask- Did you notice any patterns/differences in the U.K. vs. Chinese-made V30s during your journey? Or do you believe that too boils down to cone composition?
If they were made during the same period i.e. used the same or similar cone batches, they were pretty much the same. I have since been told by reliable sources that they use different glues in the UK and China speakers which have a minimal effect on the tone but that is so small that is drowned out by manufacturing tolerances.
For all intents and purposes UK made and Chinese made speakers from the same period sound the same
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Danke. This confirms my suspicion.
Wow. So do I hold on to the good ones I’m selling right now?
Try a video of Vintage 30 UK model vs. Chinese model. I use the UK versions for my stage rigs. I would love to hear the comparison.
Check a few videos back where I compared 53 different V30 variants including UK V30s from the 80s and 90s
Ok. So if I take an EQ pedal, throw it in the loop and reduce the volume in the 5-6k hertz range, should that reduce the fizz as well? I guess I learned something! Thanks man 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
That could work. I've never tried it as I don't have an EQ pedal
Since the difference seems to be pretty well defined, can the presence/treble eq on the amp or daw compensate to make them indistinguishable? The differences were so pronounced, I could clearly hear the differences on iPad speakers. But I’ve heard this kind of fizzyness on real amps and it wasn’t hard to compensate for.
I've been wondering that myself to be honest. I haven't mixed/post EQ'd guitars in years and I keep hearing stories from producers that just can't get later V30s to sound liie the golden age but ton be honest. I don't see a reason why one or the other EQ method wouldn't work.
You know what? I'm going to make another test about that.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne maybe it would be another video, but you can also try tricks like putting things between the mic and speaker like tissue paper, paper towels, wash rags, sponge and so on with increasing absorption to see how that takes the treble. I worked with a guitarist who used various layers of tissue paper (not Kleenex, but that super thin paper that is nearly transparent) to tame the treble because he claimed EVH did it.
@@jamanjevali did that with my eminence - man of war. home made diffusors in cabinet and fizzy was gone :)
While all the speakers still sound different I'd put the early 2022s in the category or aggressive compared to the harsh and noisy 2019 and the later 2022 models. Some are smoother than others but I'd be happy with any of them but that 2019 speaker and what seems like the newest ones especially one of those 2022 december speakers hurts my ears and is everything about v30s that got hate for years. If celestion can't be consistent at least can they reissue the v30mf because that speaker rocks and has room to be slightly harsher.
I agree but the more I dig, the more I suspect that Celestion can't be blamed. I get the impression that 90% of the variance I have seen in my tests come from the cone. Maybe Celestion is at the mercy of the cone manufacturer here.
I believe Celestion had a surplus of Vintage 30 MFs but as they were Marshall OEM speakers, they couldn't be sold as such so the relabled them. I am 99% sure that the G12-60S Special Edition is a relabled Vintage 30MF. TAD had them for a while and I believe there is a retailer in Spain that still has some and is selling for lesd than what a regular V30 costs.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne interesting, I've seen the tad ones but they are all being sold for super inflated prices online along with the Marshall labelled ones. Might have to do some more digging.
That makes sense most of the biggest changes in celestion history are the cones, it's just such a sensitive range for guitat that it almost sounds like a different speaker when the cones differ.
How can you find out what year the speakers are? I see the numbers but where can you reference? There’s a cab I saw but I’m afraid to buy it because I’m concerned whether or not they would give me the correct year.
There will be an alphanumerical date code either on the white sticker on the side of the speakers magnet or a stamp on the frame if the speaker was made before 2001.
Here's what the codes mean:
celestion.com/blog/date-codes-how-old-is-my-speaker/
Nice video! Went pretty anal about V30 and got myself a late 2001 Mesa 4x12 cab I`m very happy with.
Awesome! I too recently got one loaded with 2003 V30s and feel the same. Congrats on the killer new cab
Great video. Are new mesa v30’s close to the early 2000’s?
The ones that have Z batch and early xxA batch cones likely will. There doesn't seem to be any difference between Mesa and regular V30 other than production location (which doesn't appear to affect the tone in any significant way) and the orientation of the sticker on the back cover.
Considering these cones are paper ish material, I wonder how much extreme differences in humidity could affect things.
Good question
@@TheOtherJohnBrownetime to fuck up a speaker with steam?
Ok then next we can do elevation tests.
Big surprise: Glenn is full of it. I knew that as soon as his "all pickups sound the same" nonsense started.
Guys, you wanna know a secret? There are no speakers that have the exact same sound. In the factory this is called tolerance.
That is correct
For me, I much prefer an Eminence to Celestion. I have a few Eminence models in 12s and 10s. The Eminence GB 12 and Governor in a 2x12 box is much smoother, but I know many like the Marshall/Celestion sound. One mans ice pick is another's ice cream.
My transparent dustcap v30 has 37a-444 on the cone. Date code is CH18. Guessing it will be a lot harder to identify a "good" one short of hearing it...
It will be hard without a reference. Your cones are pretty close to my Feb 22s so you're probably lucky
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne I do think it sounds pretty close to my 2000-2003 speakers, but I have never measured it to get any empirical data.
@@wootks At the end of the day, all that matters is that it sounds good to you which it sounds like it does
Awesome comparison, but I believe I was hearing some of the bleed off from your headphones into the mic, do you notice that?
I muted my vocal mic in editing when the speakers samples were being played and only blended it back in when I said something while a sample was playing.
The voice over and the screen recording with the speaker samples were recorded using two seperate computers. There was no microphone connected to the main computer playing back the speaker audio at the time of recording the screen so it seems unlikely that there would be bleed from the headphones
Hey! Looking for the comparison of the Mamzer30 speakers. How do you like them?
I have installed a 16 Ohm one in my Zilla 2x12. I have yet to try it. Will install the 8 Ohmone too shortly and give them both a decent run.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Do you think there will be a diffrence in sound between the same speaker but diffrent impedance?
I want to buy one, and my amp can handlle both so I'm curious if should choose one over another .
Thx
@@dirtyfreaks5 Yes. The 16 Ohm version will have slightly less mids and the tendency for a slightly elevated top end.
What's the code on the cones of december 2022 units? Mine reads 03B.0444
Mine were 03B too
I understood the basics going on here: a certain batch was (not on purpose) made differently (we do not know how and why) and has a slightly more (for some maybe favorable) eq curve. But I didn't get the part with what batches are the better ones (that sound like the early 2000's). The Fricker batch is from 2022 and has a lower Z number or what? Can somebody help and give details about how to identify the "Fricker batch"? I didn't understand that part.
I'll be making a video giving more details on that soon
It seems cone batches that have the letter Z or A in them are affected by the temporary voicing shift
I compared 2002, 2004 and (March) 2022. 2002 and 2022 are my favourite ones
Same. I really like the Feb 22s as well as my 2000s and 2003s most
@@TheOtherJohnBrowneGreat analysis by the way! I did not look on the cones but now i am curious which one I have. I will post it here later.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne This took me a while, but my Cone on the March 2022 V30 says 45A. And the speaker from 2002 says C44.
@@nikolayew Awesome! Thanks, man!
Dear john, from my long experience with spectrum analysers (+20 years now) , yes they shows what we are hearing and helps us visualysing it, but we always hear things that somehow don't translate in graphs. Remember they make some interpolation of peaks and rms ... (2 + 4 )/ 2 = 6 the same way (4+2) /2 =6.... getting my point? give less importance to the graph and more to what you're hearing! Very nice video though!
Cool! What's your background, mate?
That's pretty much how I used the graph tools - to guide me to areas I need to listen closely to by using filtering to isolate certain frequency bands. In my opinion it lined up pretty well with the audible differences and Voxengo SPAN and REW pretty much delivered the same results. Can you hear anything in particular that is not accounted for in the graphs?
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne you're using the right tools and aproch but I remember there's a ponit on the video we're you kinda change your mind due to what you're seeing, not what you're hearing! I'm sure you know that's the most common error for sound engineers. I do it also, but I was fortune to start in the old analog/ tape world.
Not surpricing at all that its probably mostly about tolerances, speakers are after all to a big part mechanical.
it makes the most sense it's just supply chain issues giving the 2019-2022 lockdowns - in general I've seen a lot of quality discrepencies in lots of products and for the business where I work there have been issues getting and the same supplies or even same quality supplies - especailly in regard to cardborad boxes - since cones are made of paper it'd make the most sense that for a time they had to make a slight change in materials - I do thing were going to see much more variances like this in the future as well.
The other factor could possibly be - idk if you did any electrical tests on the speakers, but I'd be curious how much of a variance there was in the actual magnets - or if the older speakers have the same freqencies compared to the newest ones - magnets do lose charge over time in general as well as if they are dropped so it could be a factor in the sound as well - they could have a different metalergy blend as well - there's so many factors aside from ripping them apart and testing everything idk you will get to the bottom of it - but I think we can assume the change was due to supply chain issues as well as we can probably expect more change in future speakers.
I suppose that's partly why I'm kinda partial to eminence since they are largely still assembled in the US
Also I'd be curious your opinion - I've kinda always really disliked the celestion 70/80's speakers - the speaker not the era in time - but it seems for metal that'd be more the sound your might want? Is that the case or are those even still too muddy for metal?
I like your theory about the supply chain issues. It sounds entirely plausible and likely to me given the circumstances of the time.
I was not able to test things like the strength of the magnets as I don't have the means. At the same time I believe ferrite magnets as used in these speakers lose their magnetism so slowly that many consider them to have almost permanent magnetism.
I did check the DC resistance of all of the V30s I had and the values were pretty much identical. I suppose I could have checked the inductance too but didn't think of that.
I am convinced the variance mostly comes from the paper cones. We're pretty decent at metallurgy as a culture at least for these applications and are able to manufacture metals and coils very consistenly which is why I don't believe it's the magnets and/or voice coils in this case.
I appreciate all your insightful and detailed comments!
Have you played many 8 ohm 90 or 91 V30's? If so what are your thoughts?
Actually just one. I think I have an 8 Ohm V30 from 91. I don't think I have tried more than the one from 91 or ones 1990. I like the sound of it though
if you want a good vintage 30 tone try out the warehouse guitar speakers wgs retro 30 they sound the best for metal
I had a Retro 30 and a Veteran 30 a few years ago. I remembet liking the Retro 30 a lot. I will be getting them back in again for a V30 alternative test
Am I right to say some have 1777 cones and some have 444 cones? That’s a difference between a lead and a bass speaker, at least back in the day.
There was an OEM version of the Vintage 30 made for Hughes & Kettner in the early 2000s and possibly late 90s. These however are long out of production. All other V30 have and have had 444 cones. I show some of the H&K speakers in this video ruclips.net/video/EhrSlRhFsR8/видео.htmlsi=R8jbPOwcM5L9NELU
an addendum to your conclusion at the end of the video (or inconclusion haha), from your list you can see that both china and uk from the early 2000s are good, at the same time as those from the 2010s', china or uk, are bad (general speacking took by your comenst on the list). I think the tip is to look for the old speakers, or try your luck with the new batches from 2021, 2022, some of them were actually good.
"It's all in the cones and composition of the cones. Which changes from batch to batch." - Which begs the question do other manufacturers experience the same issue, or is it a product of the way Celestion defines their tolerances? Also has me wondering if Celestion has more than one paper manufacturer contracted, which might explain some of the variances.
That is an excellent question and I'd love to know the answer.
I just can't afford 40 Eminence Governors at the moment 😅
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne My hunch is that they all "suffer" from it to one degree or another. The paper has wood product in it (plus whatever other materials) and like back-to-back guitars coming off the assembly line, wood will sound different no matter how hard you try to minimize it. Once again, absolutely amazing work and dedication on your part. I would think you've got some sales and engineering folks sweating a bit at the Celestion offices!
@@divebomb99 This would be the way to truly answer if the differences are from manufacture or not. The only thing I'm skeptical about is the fact all the speakers are identical up to about 5k. So what are the chances that the variations in cone material only affects this range?
@@3rett115 Good stuff. We can only guess. My guess is that it's the way the speaker materials resonate and/or react at those naturally occurring frequencies. Then the other half of my brain tells me that when we get to this level of dissection and analysis that it's time to cut the cord and get back to focusing on the fretboard! haha. 🙂
My theory is that it has to do with the stiffness of the cone. Most guitar speakers frequency responses are only specified up to 5 kHz. Most speakers efficiency take a hefty dive at that point. I believe more or less stiffness in the cone could shift the point at where this drop off happens in one or the other way. Stiffness could be affected by the material composition and/or the production process
Doesn’t the cone and voice coils have a break in period?
It's what I shall investigate next. All speakers apart from the 2000 and 2019 speaker in this test were new though with under 15 minutes of play time on them