Exposing this hidden system for max damage
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- Опубликовано: 21 май 2023
- Kanon breaks down a crucial system in Diablo 4 that will help boost your overall damage exponentially.
This is a follow-up video to "I guarantee you're sleeping on this...you're welcome" which can be found here:
• I guarantee you're sle...
Damage Clusters/Buckets
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
@DonTheCrown 's spreadsheet
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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Игры
Hey guys I want to reiterate that a LOT of this is assumed/hypothesized information based off of datamined leaks. There is data that we know for certain but a lot of the stuff with the Paragon Board is being speculated...especially with wording. For example, Legendary Nodes could be completely in their own cluster of damage, we just don't know. It's like we know basic math and equations and we're trying to apply that based off of hints we have. For builds, guides, or a community of friends join our discord.gg/onehp - Catch me on twitch.tv/kanonxo and get to know me personally!
What is your playmat an screensaver
link to that Doc and/or link to the person that made it?
@@casediedwell5094 This is definitely going to sound like one of those "Oh it's me" moments, but I made this sheet originally with the intent for it to be a purely informative way to just see the different types of damage modifier wordings that D4 uses ingame, I didn't expect it to spread around all over the place within 24 hours and I will say a lot of people have interpreted it incorrectly in thinking it's 100% accurate and confimed. (Underestimating the power of the internet, valuable lesson has been learned from this)
As Kanon has mentioned in the comment above a lot of this is purely hypothesized information regarding on Glossary leaks (to gather the actual ingame tooltip terms) but also hypothesized based on a lot of testing (couple weeks worth in the Sanctuary D4 Discord) different damage formulas to try achieve some peoples damage numbers in Open Beta, while these calculations were being simulated I went ahead and made the doc sheet to group together all the different types of damage modifiers we could see from the datamine and I will personally be updating the sheet on launch when we can actually get into testing these theories and find evidence of "damage clusters" or "damage buckets"
Having these different calculation possibilities in mind will help us a lot during the launch, thanks a lot!
Awesome information @Kanon! Any chance you could share the spreadsheet detailing the build?
Great video. The only think I imagine has to be taken into account is that, when wanting to multiply the 5 different damage clusters together, you have to really make a build around being able to activate them all.
Yeah some of the clusters are not always proceed, because you maybe can't chill enemies
Love these videos bro! Very helpful, even though I'm typically lost for a hood portion of what's going on. I'm also going for a twisting blades rogue, but I'm still undecided if I want to go with an ice rogue or shadow
This video is perfect, thank you for posting this i share this with my friends
Thanks for doing the work. Great Content
i hella have been needing something like this, thanks for the info!
Hey Kanon, love all your videos! Quick question, I noticed that the rare nodes for the barbarian paragon board has alot of dexterity requirement... any idea why this would be despite his primary attribute being strength? Should I be trying to acquire more gear with dexterity in order to make up for the needed points?
Thanks!
Great job Kanon. Appreciate the content.
I'm glad you made these videos. The first 25 levels really made the game feel overly simplified so I'm glad to see that there really is much more in depth stuff in the later game. I really do hope there are some great legendaries and eventually set gear that modify/change skills in really meaningful ways though as a lot of what you perform skill wise could use just a little more variety.
Is there even a single game that shows all their depth within the first 25 levels?
@@RealTaIk no but at first glance when you go from Diablo 3 to 4 the skill tree seems significantly more simplified or filled with things like slight bonuses to one stat/affliction more so than things that augment and change the way skills function. I’m hoping they moved a lot of that augmentation into the things we weren’t able to see in the beta.
@@mezmir I think that's great because you want a game to be easily understandable in the beginning and get complex only in late game.
fyi. some legendaries augmented skills so you could actually see the augmentation during the beta already.
Yeah I was super impressed when I looked over the paragon boards. After the beta, D4 was feeling like one of the shallowest build systems I'd ever seen in an aRPG. But then after seeing the Paragon boards, they actually make it so it's unlikely two players would ever have the exact same build unless they copied a build.
I also haven't really seen much as far as gear yet. I'm sure that's going to expand it much farther. Really looking forward to D4 now
If you couldn’t see the depth in the first 20-25 levels u gotta be blind bruh lol
Great video. This will be essential knowledge in a few weeks ... otherwise I imagine people will struggle hard in higher NM dungeons.
Extremely helpful. Thanks a million!
I was actually looking for something that addressed how damage types combined and were they additive/multiplicative. Thank you . Question about Rogue poison damage and crits. If I understand how damage and crits work, it is you do skill X is say 100 damage and then imbue for poison for 100% so 100 ADDITIONAL damage over 5 secs on top of base damage. If you crit the base damage of 100 gets the extra crit damage but the poison stays the same unless you spec into blended poison imbuement which then give X75% poison damage over 5 seconds. Is this correct? Thanks
I'm halfway through the video and had to pause because there are already 2 major areas, the glyph scaling and the damage clusters that are making me rethink my builds. Great info!
Great breakdown! how did you come up with all the "Buckets" they make sense, but I didn't know if they are confirmed by datamining? Also, I did my first Poison Vulnerable TB Rogue build all the way through lvl 100. I focused partially into Damage after Dodge. I don't see that in any of the Buckets. Am I missing something?
Also, when you say "5 or 6 board build" do you include the start board? I have a 4.5 board build including Start Board. I am going to keep working, but it will require sacrifices for sure, to reach 5 or 6!!
could you please provide link to those buckets?
thanks for the damage buckets explanation. There are some missing entries tho :( I guess the Damage Reduction and Mastery Skills will have their own category... hopefully :)
My guy! This video top shelf 👌
Ive got a few questions. The Donthecrown sheet in the description has different colors for the dmg buckets compared to the other one you showing in the video. which one is acutally correct? In the video one you got different colors between dmg vs and dmg with as well as dmg while healthy!?
The Dons sheet put these all into the same dmg bucket i guess? So whats correct here?
Also, it doesnt matter which board i pick as long as my glyphs fit in there and i get the rare/magic nodes i want, right?
Also, does physical dmg count as an extra bucket for rogue? coz, chip is doing physical dmg only which i thought is just additive the the other dmg to and dmg with affixes. coz physical dmg isnt shown in the sheet in that section
I love the end disclaimer there. If you’re not maxing, follow a 2-3 board build. Very important advice to make the most out of how much the viewer will get out of their invested time. With reassigning points being an option, it may be worth following a 2-3 board build to start.
Thanks for the amazing knowledge as always. :)
What cluster/bucket would increased overpower damage be in? I don't see it listed on the spreadsheet.
when it says that nodes in radius will gain an effect bonus, does it only count for the ones that are only selected? or do the ones that are not selected but in the red radius also get affected?>
Good video - to take it to the next level, maybe we could factor in the frequency of applicability for each type / cluster? For example, every hit isn't going to be a crit, so we'd need to factor in a % applicability to really weigh those boosts properly. If crit rate was 20% for example, 10% boost on all damage seems equivalent to 50% boost on crit damage. Am I on the right track?
this video and the parangon one help so much. Still have a question : in the Damage Theory document, how can we, on our stuff, make the difference between the "[X]% damage" and the "[+]% damage"
@Kanon Can you link the spreadsheet for the damage clusters ?
Thought i added this to the description, it's added now!
@@KanonXO Thanks!
Just got my 2nd paragon board love this!
3:53 Important: This "Damage buckets" spreadsheet is pure speculation (ie, conversations had in discord channels) at this point and not even based on data mined info (ie, tangible information obtained from game data). I would caution anyone using this spreadsheet as a guide for min/maxing their characters. This is already explained in the disclaimer within the spreadsheet, but should definitely be stated here and stated again when discussing damage calculations.
Damage buckets is confirmed lmao
@@INFJ-ThaneTr the concept of damage buckets, yes. The specific claims in the spreadsheet, namely that different additive damage bonuses from items and Paragon are further segmented into different buckets, read my comment above.
I haven't seen my paragon board yet, I was wondering if defensive glyphs can do that to?
God Tier Video, handt realised the damage clusters effect, i definitely was going for build 1 off the bat xD
Are the damage type clusters confirmed to be correct? Based on the wording they could be grouped together but is the actual formula also datamined?
Edit: nvm, just saw the disclaimer on the sheet :)
Whew... this stuff is getting deep. I will be glad when D4 releases and the content guys can get a better sense of things. There are so many layers to the onion it's frankly astounding. Blizzard seems to have really done some deep thinking about giving D4 "legs" and a vast array of choices for players of all types. Can't wait! Thanks Kanon.
I'm already feeling anxious about the fact that I screwed up my build and I haven't even installed the game yet
@@subn0rma1 What am I supposed to say? I have already rerolled all my gears stats dozen times and I havent installed game yet too^^
How does A glyph get leveled up and what is the best way to level them? Echoing 1 of the other comments can you link the excel files you had in the vid? Great vid eye opening for sure
Completing Nightmare Dungeons grants XP you can allocate to your unlocked Glyphs. For example a lvl 0 glyph requires 4 XP to lvl up. The best way to lvl them up depends on the power of you character and the Level you can reasonable clear a Nightmare Dungeon( Low lvl Dungeons for example grant very little XP and higher lvl glyphs require a lot). Finding the sweetspot is key. edit: Keep in mind this Info is from the endgame beta ( around 8 months ago), they may have reworked that system by now, who knows😅
i would wager it's some sort of loop similar to Greater rifts/leg gems in Diablo 3. Possibly the Nightmare dungeons are for upping glyphs?
Great post. Will have to be confirmed it works this way but definitely believe it will be multiplicative to an extent. All damage and vulnerability will obviously be that way.
Is it safe to assume that if you had only Cutthroat skills that choosing Cutthroat damage would be better than physical damage? Since some cutthroat skills have non-physical components.
Thank you for video keep up the great work.
Any idea How a Rogue would get access to the damage while healthy cluster?
Haven't found anything on the Paragon board!
God bless you for providing this content AND the resources!
Thanks for this Kanon, math is hard!
Do you think its possible to make an efficient rogue built w/o a basic skill? e.g. Twisting Bl, Shadow Step, Dash, heavy Poison Trap + Poison Imbue, Dark Shroud. I dont have any slots for puncture ^^
Sure, build 2 is giving more total damage bonus. But since it requires more "damage buckets", aka. variety of types of damage, doesn't it mean it'd be more difficult to find the conditions where it'd apply the full bonus ? Not all enemies are going to be vulnerable, critical & poisoned at the same time.. so what is it going to look like when you average these over thousands of monsters + bosses ? I'm not sure at all B2 would still be superior to B1.
I completely agree, every build guide show aspects or passives that have 2 or more conditions. Most will probably overestimate how good the uptime for all conditions is. Especially lucky hit effects which generally have a chance of less than 5% to actually proc if you do the math.
That's a good thing actually, because it prevents one single build type for each class from just reigning supreme and making everything a boring cookie cutter situation. You have to decide for yourself if you're going to be filling those conditions with your build often enough to invest into, and how well you can do so without overextending yourself into one area and losing too much damage or survivability.
its the same damage buckets but better spread,second build just has +all damage and vurnelable modifier
yes!! unforunately as a content creator i have to try and keep things as simple and short as possible. There are a LOT of variables with damage. Some classes will have 100% uptime on vuln but then to measure TRUE dps you'd have to also measure the time it takes you to apply that vuln vs passively as another more extreme example. My goal was to just showcase multiplicative damage vs additive based off of clusters to help people prioritize damage. You should DEF consider the up-time you get on your damage type 100% Love the fact that you pointed this out so i could comment on it!
Does this same diversify rule apply to damage reduction? Close DR, elemental DR, flat DR, Armor...
Awesome breakdown. You earned my sub.
Amazing work! I mostly check your videos first and then Raxxanterax's videos. You are both amazing at what you do. You could definitely partner or something. Just saying...
is "non physical damage" considered as a stats in the "all damage" green section at the top ?
hey bud i was curious how would i be able to talk shop with you about builds n what ur litterally going over on para's
Can you please make some videos on endgame paragon builds...Maybe start with a firewall Sorc? :) So I dont have to build my own board and miss out on double damage. Maybe a new Theorycrafting series? Each day a nice video running from creating known meta builds and showing us how you would pick your skills and then into paragon points so we can not just see it but also learn your thought process and how to go about it on our own later.
Great video as usual dude ! Would you be so kind to give us the link to your calculator ? Cheers !
I need to start planning out everything, 10 more days!
Me and my friends did and it was totally worth it! 4 hours in total for each of us to finish, it felt like a high school exam! 😅
Additive vs multiplicative percentages is easy to get tripped up with and fail to understand the interactions, and they can make a huge difference in the final result. It may not be doubling in damage, but if you're even approaching a potential 50% increase in damage, in a game like this that difference in damage is still pretty huge. It reminds me how in some tabletop games I play, if you have two X2 damage multipliers, the end result is usually X3, not X4, because mathematically what you're actually doing is adding +100% twice, which is +200%, which is equivalent to X3. Understanding to some degree how the math works under the hood with modifier groups can make a big difference.
how you can have 6 glyphs at the same time? I thought you can have only 4 boards total, that means starter + 3 more, so only 4 glyphs max?
This is the same principle as POE regarding INCREASED damage (Additive) and MORE damage which is a different category of damage that is multiplicative to other types. In other words the more different types of damage the best damage you do.
so what you saying is that I shouldn't have added it all together and got over 400% increase in damage and hit should be even higher than that
and not to mention increased crit hit damage by over 200% has well
so if I'm understanding right it will be 79% * 157% * 105%* 134.5% and then * 200+% crit damage on top of that and another 20% if the target is vulnerable which I might be increasing has well
Please link the spreadsheets.
dude you look like Kane from GRANDMAS boy and thats a GOOD thing ! that guys awesome
Thank god you are doing all this work, or I would really be lost.
I'm saying thoo!!!!
Take that mindset and remember you now have to pay to reset nodes and skills. I'm sure this will be a much louder complaint week 1 than it was during the betas.
isnt physical and poison damage part of the green damage group?
thanks for the videos. can we have the excel files please?
Top secret
they are available in the discription :p
Thanks for the video, I will even more confused now! Lol I have a lvl 72 Rogue just got to T4 at lvl 68 and flip back and forth from t3 and T4 depending on what I'm doing. I just kinda read the node's and take what makes sense, but I I HATE math! I literally need someone to take over my controller and do my paragon board for me,
whose available, I'll pay!
If you have 100ft of fence and you wanted to make a rectangular enclosure with the largest area, what would be the lengths of the sides? 25 x 25 x 25 x 25. I call this concept "completing the square".
Side of the fence = Color group on the spreadsheet
The area of the fence enclosure = total damage you end up doing
The damage buckets have changed
Why wouldn't you be able to get all glyphs to 20??
Why go through this and not link to the spreadsheets or DonTheCrown's channel?
U typed his name once
Why is no one talking about the significantly reduced blood and gore effects in the game? Watch Blizz con 2019 Diablo 4 demo footage with barb and you will be shocked that they cut out nearly all gory combat effects... This needs to get attention of the devs, it was so much more satisfying with a lot more gore!
It looks like the big difference in this two builds is the vulnerable damage that’s gonna give you the most dps
That is crazy if I understood it. So usually in all ARPGs I know, you wanna specialize on a certain thing.
So in D4 you dont wanna do that but instead spread Skill- and Paragon Points all over the place? Is that what you're saying?
Does this make skeletons survive
There's an entire Paragon Board devoted to the necromancer skeletons, and another board for the golem - and there's quite a bit there to help with their survival. That said, we can't actually test them out live in high level situations yet. There are global minion modifiers for Damage Reduction, Max HP, and Armor. Beyond that, you can also get higher Armor for skeletal warriors and higher Resistances for skeletal mages. The golem can get all of the above in its Board.
These glyphs and nodes are overwhelming. I’m fked 😢
remember when the community complained Para boards are too simplistic with all those +5 stat pt nodes? lol
I don't recall the last time someone told me to watch a previous video first, and I actually did it. Until I came across this confusing shit. ❤
You got me 31.4 percent more damage, still very nice!
that mouse mat
The damage clusters are at best a guess.
I’ve read some of the conversation of some people that were chugging away at testing (lothrik, being involved in this chat), and this is “one of the ways” a level 25 character was able to hit a 415k crit. It’s one of the better guesses right now.
Even if the buckets theory pans out, vulnerable being so separate is very very outlier. (It feels pretty sus!)
Apparently Vulnerable works along the lines of "defense penetration" so it will empower your damage way more than other types. Let's say your skill does 100 base damage with absolutely no modifiers. First you add your STAT modifier to base damage; then you add the general DMG modifier. At 10% each, you skill does 110 first, then 121 after the second modifier. Then you factor vs CC enemy, 10% more? 133 dmg. after you calculate all "base" modifiers, then you go into vulnerable, wich is base 20% increase so that's around 160 dmg; then you add in the critical wich is base 50% that would be 199 dmg. The only one I havent found where it gets utiplied is overpower.
Wouldn't this all hinge on damage clusters' exist? I can see it as possible but that google sheet doesn't prove itself either
Remember seeing talk on how they want to make it hard to get to lv100, not sure how that works with seasons. But yeah can easily bet everyone would be on 2 board build for a while, and new insights will come later -- 5 boards already felt like a max because you may never have enough stats to unlock rare node powers + the most meaningful legendary/glyph skills are already taken for your build
I think the biggest difference is that u dont have vulnerable damage in the top one
Double it is pass it on... also your mouse mat is hawt. hahaha
Can someone tell me how he got those Total Damage #'s ? Did he multiply or add each field agains 100?
Kinda sucks that you can't be 100% sure on these nodes. Also the question is gonna be how hard are these glyphs to find?
Rogue has the best damage multiplier on all classes based on the paragon board. Without glyphs I was able to have 60% Damage / 90% Damage to Vulnurable (Which is every monster including Elites) / 75% Imbue Damage / 40% Skill Damage / 40% Elite Damage. I dont know how the game will compute all those multiplier but darn that's many. I also have 125% damage to CC enemies which will proc to boss when staggered.
What are you on about there’s not even 15 dex nodes on the starter board!!!
paragon board scares me away as a casual 1st time player
Clickbait titles are bad… having said that. For anyone reading this I hope you get a bunch of rare nodes AND the double bonuses they provide. Getting both on the first board is so easy to do and it’s a guarantee for both to bonus out.
What’s neat is your “BiS” is personal. It 100% depends on how what your play style is. It gives that edge to those who seek higher synergies and will min-max to achieve it ♥️
The devs said that each rare node purchased gets more expensive, you have to level up glyphs individually, to get the extra bonus on these rare nodes or glyphs you have to meet the requirements. With all that included i dont think you will be able to get 5 or 6 boards, i believe its gona down to 2 or 3 boards and maximizing them cause it will get too expensive.
The expensive part as you call it comes from the secondary bonuses of rare nodes requiring higher amounts of a specific base stat per board. No one is going to use 2 boards near max level, 4-5 for sure is the sweet spot. The key is even rare nodes base part is twice or better then anything lower even without the bonus effect. There arent enough rare noedes or better in 2 boards for 220 paragon points.
@@HighPleasure since they get more expensive you need to invest in more normal nodes and magic nodes just to get that bonus effect. On the sorcerer start paragon board 2 rare nodes are 170, and the other 2 are 200. On the second board rare nodes range feom 260 to 330. Thats a big leap so they get quite expensive. Especially if you get more than 1 rare node and the requirement to get the bonus effect are different like 1 being 260 int while another requiring 330 dex.
Gee, I will need a masters degree in maths to play D4. 🥵
What is the 33.31% based on? From the total damage numbers it seems like a 50% boost. Yes, you'd "lose" 33% going to the less diverse build from the diverse one, but going from the sub-optimal to more diverse, it's actually a 50% boost. Seems like an odd way to present it.
Yep, those glyphs are the REAL GRIND at end game; everybody is gonna be in uniques and ancestral, but the damage and stats come from the paragon boards.
It will be possible to reach level 20 in a glyph, you just gonna have to farm glyphs hardcore because apparently they are randomly dropped; and they also need materials to do it. Anyways, it's awesome because it gives you focus on specific things. There are "common" rare nodes among all characters, like % dmg to elites; if you slot a glyph that increases rares, they are usually almost 200% of the node value; so if it's a couple 12.5% dmg to elites, that's almost 36% increased dmg to that type of enemy.
DMG increase is much more valuable because it increases your base dmg, You can focus on DoT, increased dmg to DoT, reduced dmg from close enemies and things like that.
Your Paragon board vids are easily some of the most useful D4 resources around. Glad you gave a shoutout to those spreadsheets as well. But I was promised 50% extra damage, so the way I see it, you owe me 17% damage! You can email me the damage when you can, though. No rush.
yo why is paragon so damn complicated. feels like I should be getting paid to crack the paragon puzzle
goated
If these damage groups or "buckets" are real then I am scared for the enemies because with a base damage of 100 by build comes out to more than 12000 damage with lvl20 glyphs. I might be glass but as long as I live slightly longer than they do I win.
Not including the chances to deal double damage with poison.
Well, thank good I watched this video because I "Had Zero Chance" of figuring out this genius level stuff all on my own... Yup, reading comprehension at the 6th grade level would've definitely been just too difficult.
What I don't find super fun (yet) is that every single thing is conditional. It could make it quite hard to get the multipliers going, and then gameplay might devolve into: OMG I'm absolutely destroying every-ahh...Wet noodle damage again.
Are you going to talk about Perfect New World Beta we had a few weeks ago? What about Throne & Liberty? I am really not interested in top down games.
Watch other channels Einstein
I loved how he said "to simplfy it" then starts speaking Korean. 😆
Heres the non asian version. Stack multiplicative modifiers over additive. Example
1.15 i.e. 15% damage + 1.20 i e. 20% damage = 35% overall damage increase. But 1.15 × 1.20 = 38% overall damage increase. What this means for you the user is find out which modifiers are multiplicative and stack as many of those as you can without much sacrifice.
im pretty sure damage to vulnerable and vulnerable dmg is not the same
That damage bucket sheet is not accurate For example it makes absolutely no sense that "damage will human" is additive to "damage while werewolf". That would mean that if you stack all +++ damage into "damage while werewolf" you would do same damage as human.
You misinterpreted it.
Let's say 50% human and 50% werewolf
The additive % is only applied if the condition is met.
You don't get +100 on all attacks. It's +50 while a werewolf and +50 while human. 50% to whatever the base damage X skill modifiers etc.
I really need WASD movement. Have a bad wrist and this stops me from playing Diablo 3 without a stupid autohotkey script
Nice
Hey Kanon, just a tip for your future calculations. The Exploit Glyph isn't Vulnerable damage and not in it's own cluster (if we follow the "damage bucket spreadsheet". It says "increased damage TO vulnerable targets". I think it goes into the same cluster as the Tracker Glyph --> Damage Vs/To vulnerable and poisoned targets.
Thanks for all your videos about those Paragon Boards! Seems like many creators haven't really touched it yet, probably because of possible changes to it.
God bless you for doing the lords work!!!❤
i think the paragon board is too complicated
Is 800% damage value
Bro, every damage modifier is positive here, i.e., divided by the base / smaller number. Don't present a "damage differential" percentage. Instead, just do 4826/3219 = 1.5. That's because all of us would intepret that as doing 50% more damage with option 2, instead of 33% less damage with option 1.. You even mentioned at 10:54, "Even a 100% double the damage".