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Volkswagen EV with sodium-ion battery begins mass production
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- Опубликовано: 27 дек 2023
- Volkswagen EV with sodium-ion battery begins mass production
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#vw #sodiumionbattery #production #evnews
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Sodium ion batteries don't have to be produced at a large scale. Just the fact that they exist and work is enough to keep lithium prices down. That's why we need many types of batteries, it's just to keep the price of any one type of material from getting out of control. Even if they are not used in cars that keeps grid scale batteries from using up all the good car batteries.
Yeah exactly and right now Lithium prices have tanked like 70% since 2022 but if it starts going up again, Sodium will make more sense again. Mainly for lower-range cars as mentioned in the video
If sodium ion batteries work then why would you use lithium ion batteries? You wanted to keep the burning EV video tirades from the fossil fuel PR troll farms going? Or maybe since it's a huge environmental nightmare to extract lithium... you could still invest in it anyways like "who cares"... because the price is really low right now?
@@jb5music because life is more then cars, density matters, weight matters, performance matters
@@jb5musicsodium battery cars still have less range. But if charging infrastructure built out range won't be as important. I'm all for sodium
@@jb5music This is a "bring everything" moment. We can't be nit picking about every type of battery, we need them all. Each will be good for something even if it's not cars.
Great to see sodium coming through to market. From what I've read, Sodium batteries are also a lot less toxic to produce than lithium. Imagine this helps a lot for their green credentials.
Not to mention the socioeconomic benefits that come from ditching lithium mining. Salt is easy to mine compared to lithium. I think sodium ion or zinc ion will eventually replace lithium. Even at this early stage, probably where lithium was devopment wise 20 years ago, sodium is showing itself to already be an economically viable alternative.
Lithium is not that toxic. Many take it as a supplement.
Diversifying battery chemistries is a good thing. This will be especially useful for smaller cars that are mostly used for shorter drives such as trips to the local shops, to park at a train station and local deliveries and errands. This also frees up lithium for use cases that require higher energy densities. The biggest impact of chemistries such as sodium ion will come for replacing lithium ion in status energy storage for grid, community and home batteries where volumetric and gravimetric entity are not important but cost is of primary importance. This will free up a lot of lithium that will be directed towards transport applications.
Sodium ion batteries are perfectly adequate for cheap city runabouts and any static battery installation where energy density isnt such a big deal. Less lithium in those applications means more lithium for other applications.
As, as sodium-ion batteries are much less flammable, they would provide for a much safer home energy storage as well.
Watch CATL they are making a sodium battery with 700km of range that costs 1/7 of an LFP.
Sodium ion batteries will be environmentally cleaner , so thats a tick from me
Yep despite the new reserves the real problem is the time and polluting technology of its processing. Even the US was sending raw materials to china for processing ... as they had invested the most in the technology.
Save to say current technology is problematic in that it requires a lot of water energy and secondary materials.. producing a lot of CO2 and other pollutants.
I think any battery which won't catch fire has a huge advantage over the current ones.
The catching fire part isn´t even the big issue, it´s still rather rare even so increasing infrequency. The real issue is the battery pack burning at 2000+C which easily melts steel and the huge problem to extinguish a burning battery pack. Literally any sort of energy storage that doesn´t burn that hot or can at least be extinguished quickly is a massive improvement.
Breathy voice -Ultrifiiiiiiiiiiiiiiire
Sodium Ion batteries have the added benefit of avoiding major conflict materials like cobalt or manganese. A lot of consumers at least where I live in the USA are starting to be more conscious of their consumption especially when it comes to these conflict materials.
This is an underrated comment. It's not just the lithium but the other materials as well.
As I understand sodium batteries work better in a wider range of temperatures and are has lower risk of fire.
Better performance on the cold climate
0 risk of fire
Need no warming up conditions bc they tolerate up to -20C... plus a lot other advantages
I've read sodium ion might work really well in cold temps, might be a good chemistry for cold areas.
Please Electric Viking, "Watt Hours per Kilogram", not "Watts per kilogram". I know you know but it helps lessen the confusion within the masses. That being said, I love your videos.
Sam doesn't appear to read replies to his videos. I have told him the same thing many times...
Fire safety is always on my mind.
But won't the salt cause the cars to rust out from the inside?
I commented on another YT video asking if you could cover this. So glad to see you have!
I would love to see Sodium Ion Batteries... but because of there lower power density i think they will work better in static storage more than in cars. If you can have a clone power wall for less money but 20% bigger for the same power output.. it is not a problem. the problem is they just dont have the density but they are really good about not being able to catch fire even when punctured and crushed ,
Not for cars.. yes for static storage.
Exactly these would be great for static storage and would free Li ion for vehicles and other uses where energy density is important.
The sodium battery has been used in the BYD Seagull car and seems to work without any problems
Not sure what the big mystery is here. Nearly 300 km range? Cheaper car? 80% charge in 20 minutes?? Sounds like a perfectly fine car for most of the people in the world. Even in the US, the average suburbanite has a daily commute that is way under this.
Excited for sodium ion just for static battery installations. At scale they will have significant cost savings. By the time you can buy home batteries, solar panels will be even cheaper.
Congratulations BYD
First sodium Battery.
Sodium ion battery is very good for Stationary Grid scale storage.
Energy Density is not a concern there.
Gravity Energy Storage is more efficient than any chemical battery.
This type of EV may be really successful in large urban centres with a dense charging infrastructure.
This would cover 100% of the driving I do with the smaller of our 2 cars. The other is a highway cruiser.
Always great watch mate, love the information but down to earth approach with not too many negatives 👍. Oh yeh and nice bike in the background 🤟
Ok, I'm gonna say it: Game Changer 🎉😮😂 Thanks for this update, Sam , staying ahead of the curve!
Say Ellie ta muh litta fren ever changin checkmate battery chemistry…… it’s game over indeed
( grid ~ home an work stationary storage). Vehicles maybe so
no it's not. LFP this year are going to reach
For your family best regards and wishes with thanks
✨
Really cool car and concept. I hope it is successful, because those cheap cars might be what will drive up EVs demand in the third world.
First world too! I'll buy one !
Especially Australia!
Thanks for covering this. There was quite a bit of hype at the beginning of this year about na-ion. Unless mass production kicks in and lowers the price, this battery tech appears to be waiting in the wings.
If I were in the insurance business . I would not write a policy on a lithium powered vehicle .
Thanks for sharing the new car design. The world expected to see a JAC E10X face first with the HiNa cells. Thus, I am delighted to see now a face lift for better distinction to the LFP Versions of E10X! The data tells us, it’s still the same platform.
Good news, keep them coming Sam.
One point to consider is where we are on the S-curve. Even if we have plenty of lithium, there will probably be a second price rise just because capacity planning for the steep part of the s-curve is extremely difficult and risky. Dodging that tightness might be a smart move even if they switch later.
keep up the great work
I am still more exited about Sodium. They should still be a priority since they are better for the environment and the entire point of going electric was the environment it still makes more sense.
whats great about sodium is that you can discharge them 0-100 over and over and it doesnt hurt the battery... so that should translate to less range anxiety... but as it is i think they will remain pretty niche
120wh/kg at the pack level doesn't seem really far off LFP. More concerning is that a 25kwh pack can only produce peak 75kw power, which means a 3C peak discharge current from the cells. At 200kg for such a small pack, that doesn't bode well for use in larger vehicles -- a 75kwh pack would weigh 600kg and only produce 225kw peak power for the motors. An LFP pack at 75kwh might weigh only 450kg and produce 375kw peak, and a ternary pack only 350kg and produce 600kw peak.
For example, replacing the Cyber truck 123kwh pack with these Sodium-Ion packs would mean 1000kg battery weight that would peak at only 400kw power -- in effect, adding 400kg weight and cutting power in half.
Did I miss something or wasn't the 3C rating just for charging? Discharging rate surely must be higher?
LFP is evolving too. Geely's "Golden" LFP battery has reached the specific energy density of the best NMC batteries: 255 Wh/kg!
No batteries have a chance against the upcoming next generations of Sodium-Ion batteries on the long run.
Assuming your math checks out, lets remember Sodium batteries would be used for low cost cars and you're worried about it "only" having 225kw peak power? Since when has this started to be considered low power? I think people are getting jaded by cars like the Model S Plaid, most people don't need anywhere near that kind of power.
@@itekani It said the base car has a 25kwh battery pack and has 75kw motor power. That is 3C discharge rate for a 25kwh pack to produce peak 75kw. So, apparently, this sodium ion battery is not like other chemistries that can discharge faster than charge. The larger battery can produce 100kw power but I think the same motor, so it is a battery discharge limit.
Electrifying the Future are looking Great !
Another safer sodium - ion batteries to choose from !
Eventually Range and Density will improve over the later years !
😉💖⚡️🔋⚡️💖💯👍
😉💖⚡️🌎✌️
Smart business by VW group.
Sodium batteries do better in cold climates.
What about in hot climates like 50 degrees C?
I would purchase a smaller car with low range at $15,000 as a backup car. Like an extra car. I would use it only for city driving.
With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.
I have a suspicion that sodium ion packs might play a significant role in futire cheaper battery pack replacements for current EVs on the market. Certainly if the are quite safe and perform reasonably at different temperatures even with no active thermal cooling systems. I couldsee a whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric at affordable install prices. I think that could change the EV landscape on the whole.
When you say "whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric..." what do you mean exactly? Do you mean the manufacturer updates the newest model to be an EV instead of ICE? Or you mean actual retrofits on existing, already sold, ICE vehicles?
I have a funny thought. In Germany.... Okay but your car has less power than before!!! You can't drive that! Or you make all the tests the manufacturer did for this car again. But prepare.... You may get many new cars for the costs.
CATL believes Sodium-Ion will eventually make up almost 20 percent of the EV market. That may be true but personally I'm waiting for lower cost home storage using sodium. If we can get 5.2kw rack batteries down in the $600 to $800 range that would really change things, especially here in California where NEM 3.0 makes solar a bad investment for most people.
Same here in Netherlands. We have the most solar panels per capita in the world right now. But the advantages will soon be gone. And then you need batteries. Thats where sodium-ion comes to play.
Who would have though that the salt you used to put on your fish and chips would one day power your car?
probably the lack of copper is more important for the price advantage of the SIB chemistry than the lack of lithium.
Thats quite possible... Motors use a lot of Cu and rare earths if permanent magnet types ... So logic states that the AEM 🇬🇧 type compressed Cu free Al windings and permanent magnet free type motors will be cheaper as well as longer life as they can run hotter and dont loose their magnetic strength through it or vibration.
Wiring systems of buzzbars also reduces the amount of copper required and finally a bright spark has figured out that a Cu wire with a graphene carbon core can carry a significantly higher load and weighs less... Also if you switch up your traditional 12v devices to a 24 or 46 v you can save tons of copper and Wt. 🧙♂️
One other feature of the Na cells is they can be transported flat and can be run down safely and recharged to the max. now how that will work out in the initial vehicles i dont know. The first Chinese customers are in effect the beta testers.. but if you can charge up and run down an extra 10% top and bottom without damage and it can cope with higher C rates and wider temp ranges. it could still spring a suprise on the market.
If theres a breakthrough arrives in a year then the capacity might increase from the Northvolt best of 160kwh /kg to a parity with or above current LiPosphate but with a simpler battery structure.
Then comes the mix and matching of S and Al with Li and other elements.
Though Al is relatively abundant recycling and cheap energy are going to be needed.
We may need to get away from using any metal or mostly metal from construction of structural parts and body pannels..
And the lifespan of a vehicle rolling chassis may indeed have to increase again to warrant the investment in materials and energy in their construction.
Inter Swappable/updatable battery tech as per Nios.. with after market motors/ drive systems and hyper efficient off the shelf control systems ..simple control systems.
VW is already getting flak for relying on touch screens..so going back to more buttons and knobs. Especially for key driving controls mainly on safety grounds. Turns out doom scrolling is a thing with todays touch screen multi function entertainment center displays...just not in the original sense.
A point also made by Edison motors with their hybrid electric truck conversions.
Over complication of E vehicles is basically an 🍏 type strategy to stop owners and 3parties from doing stuff without paying through the nose first and declaring them obsolete because they want to introduce a new look model every 3years.
Thats got to stop ... 🙄🧙♂️🇬🇧
You can easily recycle copper, and we have already extracted vast amounts of it from the earth.
@@sandponics
Thats the problem ... We will need huge amounts more and mining it has created some of the biggest holes in the planet...
Its already being stolen from big recyclers. The mining industry is estimating on 5 more world max size mines just to keep up.
Its also heavy and expensive so substituting Al makes sense where it can be done.
The basic problem is too many people consuming too much. The top 1% of the population consume as much as the lowest 2/3's combined. And the anthropogenic mass has for some years exceeded the biological mass of all life on the planet.
Mineable reserves of many critical materials are none renewable... so we need to learn
how to recycle and substitute with renewables and substitutes.
They have also done work on forming copper wire round carbon fiber cores... It lighter uses less copper and is a better conductor.
Think about the miles of wire used in aircraft...buildings and other machines.
You substitute basalt fiber from the Rock in the form of construction steel tie rods and meshing for example. And its impervious to chemical /salt corrosion radiation and extreme temperatures.. so causes less problems over time and is massively less polluting to make. 🤷🏻♂️ Oh and its none hazardous... You can also make recyclable composite vehicle panels and parts from it because it is so ballistically tough and cheaper to manufacture. Its also found almost everywhere Globally.
You can also modify wood to replace metal's and even glass ...but you've got to grow the stuff.. fast. .. but at least that is carbon negative as long as it stays locked in the things you make from it.
Lithium still must be mined, not a "green" process. Sodium is in ocean water, and only needs to be refined. Sodium will be a cleaner element to use.
The lithium was perfect for phones that had to fit on cellphones, but cars don't have the space constraints of cellphones, so a heavier or larger battery is not a problem, and other materials may be suitable if they can fit the needed number of cells on the car.
As long as these Na batteries are long lived, the best way of increasing the availability of Li for vehicles is to use Na for static applications. Market share and continued research will bring down the price of Na batteries just as it did with Li batteries and all that lovely freed-up Li can be used in vehicles.
Sodium ion can replace the disposable, single-use, nickel-based AA/AAA and D cells out there today, and the rechargeable lithium cells of those types can be recycled for EV battery fodder.
We should certainly expand sodium ion battery production and ramp up lithium battery recycling capacity.
STICK WITH MY LFP, SR M3. THANKS SAM.
JAC combines the characteristics of a contract manufacturer and an ODM. The joint venture with VW doesn't really change that although having the JV do the custom design work might moderate the costs of producing finished custom vehicles made in limited production runs for one client (that is what the JAC-VW joint venture appears to be about). The JAC-VW JV is also probably meant to further hedge against the risk of VW's other China based JVs and business partnerships, including those with SAIC, X-Peng and Leapmotor, becoming a serious burden should any of them fail as business endeavours.
Sodium batteries are the future of mass produced cars for:
1, no rare earth metals needed.
2, essy and cheap access to Sodium and iron for all developed countries all developing countries and most(not all) other countries.
3, Most important of all the sum of reson 1 and 2 makes them non Geopolitical
Damn, that’s way earlier than I expected.
It’s cute as heck. I want one. But, of course, North America doesn’t get cute little cars.
Sodium batteries are not affected by temperature, they dont catch fire and if produced in scale a 100kw battery that charges quickly is more than enough.
If sodium ion battery energy density improves and are cost competitive to LiFePO4, they’ll displace Li batteries from fixed/solar/off grid storage. I would purchase a battery with the least incendiary likelihood if I’m setting up fixed storage for a home or business. And the abundance of sodium will keep that raw material from causing price volatility.
The fact that sodium batteries can be charged tob100% without degradation and last far longer than other battery tech while being cheap means we may have batteries that last longer than the cars they are in and reduce the cost of the cars.
Imagine a car battery that lasts so long you can move it from car to car.
Just buy a shell and swap the battery.
Will be much safer to do battery repairs too.
I'm very excited about this tech.
A contributing factor to lithium prices falling is that demand diminishes for it - when there is now a cheaper alternative.
Even if there in theory is enough lithium (counting brine, new extraction technologies)... there is far from enough mines and production capacity.
If EV sales will go from 10% of the market to 95% - and if all other industrial / agricultural / construction vehicles should be electrified - there is certainly new pressure coming on lithium prices.
Because of the low Wh/kg, you would rather expect sodium ion batteries to be used for stationary solutions. Also because they are less fire hazard.
Sodium battery technology is still progressing, in the future Wh/kg will continue to increase and become feasible for EVs
I understand that sodium-iron batteries don't suffer intrinsic thermal runaway issues so I think they will take over the market. No doubt insurance companies and car owners will be much relieved that such cars won't suddenly burst into flames?
Good news..for city cars
Curiously never mentions the giant elephant in the room. SAFETY! Would I rather have an extinguishable battery in an accident or one that takes hours upon hours to extinguish.
I think car manufacturers will include the costs of lesser lawsuits and shipping costs (lithium batts cost more to ship due to safety regs) when looking at battery costs as well as the enormous impact safety has on a car company reputation.
Let us hope that they are smart enough to make the battery packs serviceable .Probably asking to much . Lithium is history.
Biggest problem is not cost of battery itself, it will come down whatever the technology. The problem is construction and fitting the battery, which requires costly inefficient procedure for repairing and application/access to software and tools. Cost of repair and insurance can damage ev revolution. Swapping at the point of repair should be mandatory for all the manufacturers.
This is interesting, because if this have less loss in the cold and heat and a wltp of 250 km meaning 250 km. Heck, even if it's "only" 200km real range it beats the old 24 kwh Nissan leaf. With a fast charging capacity and a lower price this could be a winner. But I have heard it "only" is about a 10% reduction in costs, so I will give a good guess this is a $20 000 car, best case scenario a $15 000 car. I'm commenting on the promise of this technology, I don't really believe it before I start seeing som real world testing.
Byd dolphin is selling for $15k in china. Guessing this will be cheaper.
Starting 2024 the minerals used in the battery packs MUST be sourced in America for the tax credit.
Nice move Mr. President 👍
375m vehicle worth of lithium at Salton Sea sounds like a lot, but how much is really extractable, and what about the other 80% of the world's cars ? Not to mention all the lithium needed for energy storage batteries. So there had better be 20 other similar sized lithium deposits around the world. Or a more economical way to extract lithium from seawater. On the good side, Salton Sea is probably enough to replace every vehicle in North America with an EV and all our energy storage needs, as long as all used batteries are recycled. Not enough to export, though.
Why does the interior and shape reminds me of the new introduced id2? 😆
Is the risk fire lower with sodium ion batteries?
sodium batteries are 100% safe, LFP batteries are probably 99% safe
Safety.
Do the sodium-ion batteries catch fire with water? Is that an issue?
Why put a JAC e-js1 as the thumbnail, though. That car was released like 3 years ago globally
One tiny advantage of sodium batteries is that don't tend to turn into a raging fireball at the drop of a hat.
Push harder for stewardship of lithium battery recycling.
I bet they will mix two kinds of batteries in an EV. Optimize for a daily 50 mile that can be replaced easily at a low cost and occasional 250 mile battery that lasts 500,000 miles because it doesn’t get used much.
Adorable car😊 How much
Cost of lithium plummeted because sellers wanted to compete with Sodium. But is not sustainable, lithium will shoot back up.
Sugar ion batteries are the best ❤
😅
I don't like Lithium in cars because of the stability issues. I think they would be great for homes though and it's nice the prices are coming down.
VW?
I already did this at school, I didn't do any of my homework and they put my name.
So, when is VW Wolfsburg going to close down?
252km range on sodium battery option and 505km range on LiFePO4 suggests the power density of each option is not similar despite what you tuber states at 6:25.
At this stage sodium batteries make the most sense for stationary storage batteries for grid power systems.
Sodium battery technology is still progressing, in the future Wh/kg will continue to increase and become feasible for EVs, the first ev with a first generation technology sodium battery was the byd seagull and that was quite decent for an ev
Easier to recycle, less costly to source and produce, easier to recycle, more ecological and safe to source, produce, and recycle. No fire risk and resist cold temperatures not needing pre conditioning for charging. Yes, less cycles and storage density now, but the same as the early lithium batteries, so with some tech work.. the solution for the future. Sodium is available evrywhere and does not require nearly as much water to source, so.... not the same explotation of a few places on earth.
If you like the sodium-ion batteries it's because you haven't tried the Vegemite-ion batteries yet.
Hello mate
🎉🎉🎉
The unit used for battery specific energy sensity is Wh/kg, not watts-per-kilogram. I know you know this, but you keepsaying it and it keeps sounding (and being) wrong.
No quantity of lithium will ever compete with sodium. Just as soda ash, also known as sodium carbonate, the world reserves are estimated at 25 billion metric tons. There is about 283 times as much sodium as there is lithium in the earth crust, Estimates for lithium are 26 million tons world wide. Furthermore, it appears that sodium batteries are less sensitive to temperatures and do not tend to combust, at least not as easily as lithium ones do. I suspect lithium technology will eventually go the way of NiCad and NiMH.
❤sodium batteries are more environmentally friendly does not need large volumes of water to produce, does not contaminate rivers or lakes ,does not harm fish or wildlife wildlife
It took 30 years for lithium ion to become mainstream in cars. Don't expect sodium ion to replace lithium ion so quickly. But yes, in the long term, I agree with you, sodium will replace lithium for a pure cost reason
Seems perfect for a compact urban runabout - but unfortunately none of the carmakers seem to want to supply such EV's to the European market. Maybe car parks and other places banning lithium EV's on the grounds of fire safety will give sodium ion batteries a boost.
LFP type batteries are the safest type of lithium battery currently
If it does succeed in being the battery of choice at least another three to five years before reaching mass market and hopefully EV car prices being comparative to regular fuel. The waiting game continues...
What is their cycle life though?
Comparable with LFP or higher. And can deal with lower temperatures and uses aluminium instead of copper so its cheaper also in other aspects. Just heavy and low density.
Salt is abundant, but what do we do with the Chlorine? Oh, I know, swimming pools!
Let us see how they price these vehicles
Let's see how much the stealerships mark them up.
well we wait, so far what I see for my next car is to keep my current Kia, but anyway good luck to VW and other brands selling new cars to millionares and billionares, we normal people will use metro or taxis sooner or later!
If cars can sell for $25K, sooner or later they will show up on the used market.
I think I might get a donkey and cart.
Storing hydrogen in MOF eliminates fire, explosion or compression. Any type of water can provide hydrogen on demand not with electrolysis but Energetic Cavitation Impact, by Prof Marc Ramsey, Vanderbilt University and replicated by @EirexTech the 5 year old cavitation company using any type of water is ideal for Keyou GbmH for trucks that can travel 650 miles using cryogenic hydrogen storage tanks right now in China.
But what about all the children digging up kobolt and lithium with bloody fingers? Those were such good arguments from fossil guys. What about all the memes? What to argue about now? Fire memes are still doing well though so we still have entertainment in FB groups and every newspaper comment section.
Those children will need to look for other jobs.
Ok for in the city, but if you have to travel any distance, battery tech is just not up to it yet, unfortunately.
By the sound of things? Really just means less people will die not digging out heavy metals for your new venture
Lithium batteries are a huge problem for pollution as well as for thermal runaway 🤔🤔
Do they have any "sodium software" solutions to go with this?
Hello Sam, hope it not hurt you to much to be positive with vw, yes the ev revolution is going fast, good to see you are able to follow the tempo, and offcorse vw and other European companies will make cars for the future as they always have done long before Mr Elon Musk was born.😊
Is it true that the sodium ion batteries are not flammable? Or at least they are far less combustible than lithium ion batteries.
Try setting fire to the salt you put on your food.
But you recently said legacy automakers were going down the shitter, but now VW has a ground breaking new battery, and will be saved?
I hear sodium ion batteries are much much lighter than lithium. That is all the advantage it needs.