Sounds like a good option for hybrid vehicle batteries as well. Capable of fast and efficient charging and discharging, yet the extra weight of the battery is less of a concern as it need only be around 20% of the capacity of a fully electric vehicle battery.
Advanced hybrids will be the way to go for decades unless something universally better than lithium-ion in all fields sprouts up, so it's great to know this kind of battery could be used to make them cheaper, safer, more economically sound and easier to produce than lithium-ion for that purpose, even if authonomy on battery alone takes a hit. That's what the IC engine is there for.
There is a large Iron ore mine in the province where I live. The tailings left over after the iron ore pellets are processed contain Manganese in substantial quantities. There is also now a salt mine (i.e. NaCl) being mined not far from me (about 700 miles) so pretty much all the ingredients can be found in any place and in large quantities. There is also a potential 2200 MW hydro site nearby the iron ore mines. Sodium batteries seem to be a better fit for stationary grid storage than the industry seems to realize I think.
Weren't the original issues with Sodium batteries that they lacked energy density, and instead of improving they found and developed lithium batteries that had more density from the get go?
@@arthurwintersight7868 I actually remember seeing a destruction test of some sodium batteries a bit ago where they drove a nail through the battery and nothing happened... also remember seeing one with lithium cells where it took far less to catch fire and then explode lol.
That was done about 10 years ago and the technology was an absolute flop. The battery could not deliver current fast enough to handle a large inductive load such as an air conditioner or a deep well pump. There are thousands of homeowners in America who are super pissed off because they got burned.
Amazing. This video looks like a news item, but it really is a 101 on battery chemistry and its applications. Thanks from Holland. We'll put this one on the recommended viewing list in the MSc program on the Materials & Energy Transition ❤
@@preservedmoose It's what the course titles at many universities have as a suffix for 1st year level undergraduate courses, in many subjects and disciplines, as in "Sartre for Beginners 101" in any Philosophy department you'd care to name (although they usually keep Sartre for later on: 3xx or 4xx.
Using these in place of lithium ion in all the other stationary applications would greatly reduce demand on lithium used and needed for BEVs. Good stuff.
I am the owner of a BYD Seagull (known as the Yuan 300 here in Colombia, where I live.) After import duties, it cost me the equivalent of US$30,000. Since there is practically no charging infrastructure in my country, I rely on my home charger, which takes 10 hours, or a trickle charger, which can be plugged in anywhere but takes 24 hours. Despite these shortcomings, I wouldn't change my BYD for any other car!!!!
That's cool. What about build quality? My casually racist mind thinks of Chinese cars as lower quality. It's a subconscious hurdle I need to work on getting over.
@@user72974 Shortly after WO2 everything coming out of Germany had to be labled Made in Germany as a scare tactic. It soon became a quality mark, if it had that label it meant it was quality stuff you could trust. A couple of decades later the same happened for Japanese goods: started as inferior imitations and soon became best you can get. Do you see the pattern already?
@@user72974 The US and Europe are already hitting them with 100% tariffs because they're good enough to compete unless the prices are artificially raised by tariffs.
One thing people don't talk about is power equipment. Something such as a forklift has thousands of pounds of counter weights on the back of them to keep it from tipping over. If you can use these less energy dense as some of that weight, while at the same time being able to charge an entire forklift in 5-10 minutes that would be revolutionary. I know a lot of forklifts are battery powered already but this could be much better than lead acid and there's still millions of forklifts out there that are propane or Diesel. There's also stuff such as gravel road graders and big heavy rollers that are needed for paving roads. These heavier batteries would actually be a benefit . And because they charge in 5 minutes this is also a no brainer for many types of industrial equipment
*Summary of Just Have a Think's video on Natron Energy Sodium-ion batteries:* *Why sodium-ion batteries? (**1:54**)* * Material availability: Sodium is abundant, unlike lithium which is geographically limited. * Price stability: sodium is less prone to price spikes. * Full discharge: sodium-ion batteries can safely discharge to zero volts, unlike lithium-ion. * Cost-effective materials: sodium-ion batteries can use aluminium instead of copper. *Natron Energy's Innovation: (**6:17**)* * Prussian Blue for BOTH electrodes: Unique use of modified Prussian Blue for both cathode and anode, creating the necessary potential difference. * Fast charging: Full recharge in under 15 minutes. * Longevity: Less degradation due to minimal expansion/contraction during charge cycles. * Safety: Less heat generation means no need for extra cooling, minimizing fire risk. *Target Market: (**8:54**)* * Stationary energy storage: Ideal for applications where weight is not a concern, such as data centers, grid stability, and EV charging stations. *Natron Energy's Progress: (**9:30**)* * Received significant funding, including a US Department of Energy grant. * Opened the first commercial-scale sodium-ion battery factory in North America. * Aiming to expand to gigawatt-scale facilities in the future. *Overall: (**10:39**)* * Natron Energy is a promising player in the sodium-ion battery market, offering a compelling alternative to lithium-ion for specific applications. * They demonstrate an innovative approach to confronting the energy transition challenge. i summarized the transcript with gemini 1.5 pro
sodium ion batteries at double the capacity of these (70wh/k) are already being used in cars in china "hinese automaker Yiwei debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered car in 2023. It uses JAC Group's UE module technology, which is similar to CATL's cell-to-pack design. The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometres (140 mi)." they are anticipating doubling that density in 2nd gen
If you have a small car that just does small journeys then sodium batteries are fine. Even if you have the odd long trip then a few charges along the way isn’t going to be too much of a pain. Then you have the life cycle of the thing which is even more convenient. I’m sure there is a place for them.
Natron will win the game for the electrical infrastructure market, where the mass of the battery isn't so important. They might also win in the market for container ships with hybrid drive systems. No big deal if the a ship's storage batteries take the place of the ballast...
Thanks for your informative videos. There is a tremendous and immediate need for big, ugly, reliable and inexpensive home storage batteries. The average three bedroom home will need at least 50 kWh of storage to mostly go off grid. Hey young geniuses, please disrupt the corrupt and complacent utility cartels and give power to your friends, relatives and neighbors with an affordable home storage battery!
50 KWH sounds like an overkill. I have a 10kwh, and last 24 hours without charging. Though I don't use electricity for cooking, use propane instead. Water heater also propane. Don't run AC, use fan instead. Hang laundry to dry istead of dryier, you can get by with 10 kwh for just lights, computers, internet, fridge.
@@jpsion you are aware that companies have know about the need to move away from fossil fuels for literally longer than i've been alive, and have mostly spent that time lobbying to not do anything right?
Can't wait for the day instead of stories about how well they might work in a certain application but instead how fantastic they have been working and exceeding expectations 😍
One huge result of this would be a reduction in the need for Lithium. Every sodium based battery utilized means that much less lithium is needed. Supply and demand tells us that will reduce the price of lithium in the market place or at the very least, slow the rise in price.
Agreed, stationary battery back up to cover solar and wind intermittency does not need to be Li+. There is a vast amount of that going in right now, it could ALL be Na+. I looked to see if I could pick up some stock in this technology. Alas, not yet but I'm sure it will come soon.
I live in Los Angeles, and there are companies who are working on harvesting fresh water from the ocean. The problem they have is what to do with the salt brine after the purified water is removed. Right now, they dispose of it right into the ocean. And, although it's "clean", it raises the salt concentration in the surrounding area, which marine life doesn't like too much. This may give those plants a market for selling their salt brine to battery manufacturers!! Ah... closed-loop economy may solve the problem again!!
Sodium-Ion IS the safe, less toxic battery chemistry we need to boost the energy transition away from fossil fuels. So it is great seeing these developments.
Well don't forget this battery technology was popular years ago in America and the company went bankrupt and the technology failed. There are thousands of homeowners in America that are super super pissed off right now with the sodium battery.
I am a trader in battery raw materials. Two years ago, the price of lithium soared, causing battery costs to be too high. Chinese manufacturers hated being held hostage by high lithium prices, and were also worried that overseas lithium mine supplies would become unstable due to geopolitical conflicts. As a result, they invested huge amounts of money in the research and development of sodium batteries, magnesium batteries, lithium battery recycling and reuse technologies, and lithium battery performance enhancement supplements, among which sodium batteries received the most investment because the price of sodium is one percent of that of lithium. Currently, sodium batteries have been used in China's energy storage industry. I suggest that the author pay more attention to research reports from relevant Chinese companies.
Don't pedal fossil fuel misinformation. We've had electricity for over century, so obviously "the grid" is old, but equally obviously electric utilities have continuously upgraded generation, transmission, and distribution. If they're not keeping up in your area, that's a failure of their regulators.
Rach, exactly! I can’t afford to buy a vacation home in London, New York, or Osaka, or Paris. And I can’t afford a Rolls Royce. And I most certainly can’t afford to drop over $50,000 or $60,000 US for the four or five Powerwalls it would take to run an induction stove and heat pump air conditioner after sundown. Home and small business owners need affordable battery storage!!!!!!!
Seems like a great battery for buses. The power density is good enough for the 50km range from end to end of the line and very fast charging allows for a ten minute turn around. All this at very limited cost and excellent longevity which should make for a great tco. Silent buses without local emissions could hugely benefit urban communities all around the world.
China success is not due to just material. you have to remember that over 50% of the silicon material for solar panel was made by US before China totally destroyed the US solar industry. silicon is just as common, so why didn't the US recover? the reason for developing sodium battery is cost. that's what they are really competing on, until you know the prices if these system, it prematured to believe a solution is found as the goal of these enterprise is not to create technology, but to create a product for sale.
@@gregorymalchuk272 that was what the market thought and why the german when with mixed panel believing silicon is rare so pure silicon model would not be economically... but guess what? all those companies that invested in mixed solution including those in china all file for bankruptcy. that's the point I am making. you can't look at commodity and pick winners... we tried that and got rekt.
@@lagrangeweiChina mass produced solar panels and destroyed the American market. What that really means is without a monopoly they have to sell them cheap. That's it. Similar story with Chinese electric cars and the US car industry, just a repeat of history🏍️🇯🇵. Now we get the tariffs
Climate change should be the goal not profits and trying to make a buck. Ignorance of humans is unbelievable every year our poler caps are melting and the southwest our forests are on fire even the deserts burn now. I'm in Arizona every summer we have longer and longer periods of over 115F each year exceeding the last. We should partner with China to make battery storage as cheap as possible no matter where it's made.
I was wondering what EDLC (with 1 million cycles) stood for. Apparently if means "electrostatic double-layer capacitance"; or super capacitors (which do not provide voltage regulation).
@@ursodermatt8809 basic knowledge like your phone using older lithium ion. My solar generators are LFP which is 10 years of charging life if you charge/discharge everyday! Sodium ion will last more than a lifetime and super cheap!
I wonder how many batteries you'd need to power a train. It might be the only vehicle where weight and space considerations don't matter, since you can always stick more engines on the front if you need more pulling power.
@@Kevin_StreetPossibly not that many batteries would be needed, too. If the batteries can charge very rapidly then short sections of third rail could be put in some areas that could charge the battery on the go. Potentially 1/20th of the track could be electrified and the train could never have to stop for charging and not need to carry batteries for the whole trip.
@@pneudmatic I can see plenty of teething troubles. Prussian blue electrodes are being researched for more than 50 years; they are not new. But there are many variants of prussian blue electrodes and the details do matter.
Train electrification is best suited. Indian Railway Network has more than 8000 stations. Now we have to install 10MW battery in every station. That will be 80,000 MW or 80GW. They can buy electricity at night. Now low speed regional train coaches can have Na-Cl batteries installed underneath and / or on roof. Charging at every stop, electrification done at fractional cost. Making it feasible on non-feasible routes. Hybrid Propulsion ships are way to go.
@@Kevin_Street A much better way to power a train is overhead electric lines. Cos, batteries has to be carried, so a part of energy is always wasted on battery weight, which doesn't happen on overhead powerline. If you want to go further, there's always place for solar panel on the train top. But batteries doesn't seem to be the way.
Sodium is getting there, the problem when using it for ESS like an off gird system is the voltage range of the cells, inverters will have to be modified to handle this wide voltage range. Wheras LIFEP4 is 2.5v to 3.65v per cell, Sodium is 1.5 to 4.3.
@@reginaldpotts2037 So at it's highest sodium is 68.8 v in a 16s config, at it's lowest the pack would be 24v or 1.5 per cell times 16, so you see the problem, you are NOT getting the full range, check out Off Grid Garage, he did an entire series on those batteries.
As a biologist, I'd like to say that the claim "there's plenty of lithium so don't worry about it", is oversimplifying things. We're finding that a lot of lithium deposits are in places that will cause enormous environmental damage if we dig them up, and there are fights between mining companies and scientists, conservationists & local communities. Areas that contain endangered habitats and species, sometimes they're national parks etc. So there may be enough lithium but accessibility is a problem if we don't want to sacrifice habitat and species. If we're trying to switch to renewables for sustainability reasons we must also consider the permanent damage we may do when we pursuing such resources.
So what you're saying is we can't destroy some small ecosystem to save a planet. I keep hearing this and get a good laugh every time. When the oceans rise 30 ft. let me know if that small ecosystem is still above the ocean level OK? I'm not saying humans should be irresponsible about making a shift away from fossil fuels, but we don't need to be stupid idiots either. Go talk to the tens of millions of people who've already had to leave their countries because THEIR environment is totally screwed, because global warming is a very uneven thing around the world. I mean, are Europeans going to keep letting in blacks from Africa as they keep losing farmlands because it's too hot? Are Americans going to let in.......... no they aren't even now without HUGE fights even though the US needs the labor force for manual labor to install the very infrastructure needed to deal with this. So, be a biologist. A REAL one.
@@Hansengineering Right? So how high did ocean levels go to bury that ecosystem under the oceans? These are all the idiot comments that keep showing up. Hi I'm a biologist that works for Exxon-Mobil.
There are at least three Sodium-ion battery EV you can buy in China for commercial purposes, and 10 Sodium-ion battery energy storage demonstrator sites currently in competition for larger scale for National grid contracts. So in what world is US beating China in Sodium-ion battery? Sodium-ion battery is already readily available in China on the market for energy storage deployment and for EVs, while in US everything is still in lab and research paper and angle rounds?
It was ignorant. Inventing new things is not the problem. Problem is you cannot import it into China. You need to build it there. With joint venture. Then they just take your idea.
Nuclear electricity is grid electricity. 15% of energy used is electric energy. So, 100% is 7 times more grid. Nuclear costs PLUS new grid costs is humongously expensive. Cheap battery on the existing national grid protects the fragile grid and unloads the existing grid with rooftop solar PV. Happy days
This is a great example of why "parts per million" is misleading. You really can't compare two different chemicals using ppm in any meaningful way. Since it is not actually "parts" like it sounds. It's actually grams of solute per million grams of solvent. So, since a Lithium atom [or ion] is only about one third the mass of a Sodium atom [or ion]. The numbers per ion would differ by one third as much. Instead of Sodium being 1,180 times more abundant than Lithium [as ppm makes it appear], it is actually only 356 times more abundant. Still, there is a huge difference in abundance between them, just not as much as the ppm numbers make it seem. I would recommend only ever comparing elements using their Molar Abundance, which gives you a better sense of how many ions would actually be available. I really wish that parts per million would be completely retired from use for this reason.
I’m American. I really appreciated your comment at the end about not whining. It’s time for American and Europe to stop the whining and start competing. The west subsidizes business all the time, so there is no need to whine about China doing the same.
6 месяцев назад+18
You didn’t mention the 50,000 charging cycles! A lithium home battery in the UK typically has around 6000 charge cycles giving them a lifespan of around 15 years. 50,000 cycles in theory means over 100 years!!
look up LTO cells made by YinLong they been around for years super safe and rated for 30.000 recharge cycles with very fast charge and high discharge they are used manly in buses but are really big right now in the car audio world
When I first heard of lithium batteries being used fir grid storage I just remember thinking it is such a waste of a relatively scare resource... Buildings generally don't need to be lightweight and as compact as possible like portable electronics...
It's not a waste, it's an economically advantageous use otherwise companies wouldn't buy lithium batteries for grid storage. They provide frequency stabilization, peak shaving, extend the hours when solar and wind can provide power, and increase utilization of transmission lines, all beneficial. So far none of the alternatives (flow batteries, iron batteries, thermal storage, compressed air storage, hydrogen storage, and now sodium-ion batteries) have proven to be better in actual wide-scale use.
@@skierpage I think by 'waste' he is referring to the storage of data, which by, and large is unnecessary, as the use of it is more about controlling people who managed fine without it before 'cloud/computer/AI'.
Thanks for that! Very informative and positive development. When Lithium prices started spiking I was thinking there will be cheaper alternatives very soon. Nothing drives innovation like economics.
I think sodium ion battery tech is also well suited to home storage. Basically every non-mobile use case. It would be a wonderful way to reduce demand on lithium ion so that it becomes cheaper for cars and electronic devices.
@@user72974 yea also it means charging stations would stop being the bottleneck for charging. As the cars improve the charging speed would improve as they're still behind the max of sodium ion.
They seem well suited for home use. The main apparent downside is that are bulkier for the same amount of energy storage. So you may want to put the battery system outside of the house, rather than in the garage, for example.
I don’t think most people realize the atmospheric improvement EVs make in cities when they are adopted in large numbers like in China. It reminds me of the smoking ban here in the US. You couldn’t imagine how removing smoking improved public life till it happened. Similarly. Removing the noise & pollution of conventional vehicles improves everyday life in ways you don’t expect.
I agree with your final remark. US, the bastion of free commerce places 100% tarifs on Chinese EVs? So what are the consequences? No incentive for US car makers to produce cheaper EVs. No incentive to produce any EVs. Carry on with ICE business as usual. For consumers who have been waiting on cheap EVs? Keep on waiting.
We need sodium batteries. They would be perfect for hybrid cars, trains, regenerative braking, homes, stations, perhaps electric lawn mowers. As for handheld power tools, lithium may still be needed. That's fine, bc sodium takes the pressure off of lithium which is more scarce. Elon Musk and his pure electric cars can go away. Hybrid cars with sodium batteries are the answer for personal transportation.
Gotta be really careful here, there are a lot of moving parts. On sodium itself, the fast pace of the R&D makes it difficult to scale-up production. This is great in that in a few years we will have significantly better sodium batteries than we do now, but not so great because the lack of maturity makes it difficult to create products using them, or production scale for those products, or for sodium products to be able to compete with the far more mature LFP products. An even bigger problem for sodium is LiFePO4 (LFP)... there seems to be this perception on social media that Lithium is somehow difficult to scale, bad, or otherwise limited in some manner but the reality is that it isn't. The non-lithium/non-sodium components for both chemistries are almost the same. Literally almost the same, and the technology and R&D curve necessary to improve both chemistries is also almost the same. That could put sodium into "poor stepchild" type of situation where manufacturers have to reduce the price so much relative to LFP that they can't actually make any money producing sodium batteries. Both chemistries require approximately the same levels of complexity to further improve anodes and cathodes, and much of that is going to be structural rather than chemical. But LFP has far better operational characteristics than sodium. Far, far better. And likely always will because they are born from properties of the base chemistry itself. I can't predict that sodium will be able to make it through this gauntlet without gaining some sort of killer feature (being able to discharge to 0V is not a killer feature, by the way). The cycle life and calendar aging characteristics are a huge unknown for sodium. The voltage range for sodium is extremely wide (which is bad) compared to LFPs very flat charge and discharge curves, and it is unclear how big of an impact the cheaper sodium (element) vs lithium will be on the cost of the whole cells moving into the future. Sodium simply might not be cheap *enough* to radically alter adoption rates. -Matt
thanks for your contribution. i absolutely agree with you. the way the chinese do "research" is marketing their battery cells and then see how the customer goes. like with charging specs and temperature.
absolutely.. the price of lithium already dropped by 85% since 2022 peak and is expected to drop further all the way through 2030, which would make sodium far less attractive.
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd it's all about supply-and-demand. It's probably something under 5% now, but I recall that during the 2022 peak, it was as much as 20%, which is why the industry started seriously looking at other minerals. You can't have that kind of price fluctuation in mass-volume commodity goods.
Please note that Natron makes batteries for industrial applications only. We have not designed, nor do we have UL certification for individual batteries for consumer use or for DIY purposes and for those reasons we do not sell batteries direct to consumers for any purposes including residential solar power systems. Our sales partners are unable to help you with those type of applications and we thank you for your understanding
I wonder if the Inflation Reduction Act in the US has helped in the development costs of sodium ion batteries, which is also a state subsidy to renewable technologies?
Sounds great for replacing DIeselcomutertrains or helping thirdrail trains to reduce the max contnious current use, when those systems are limited in that regard (Berlin has a 4kA limit per Train)
I meet someone who was at the first show in England electric show. He said that it opened his mind at the possibility of what could actually happen. This is a great direction to save MOTHER EARTH !!!!
The lessons of supply chain logistics during covid shut downs taught us the importance of self sufficiency, as families, and all levels of government. We must have reliable, efficient, and innovative industries being born, nurtured, and supported with federal and state, and philanthropic sources of money. For that effort to be successful, new businesses must sell the product at a price high enough to yield a profit. That is the purpose of tariffs, to maintain prices high enough within the domestic market to stimulate domestic production, and growth of these new industries here in America. Take a look at Korea, and the investment they made into chip manufacturing early on.
I know what you mean but this battery tech race is the game of the century so far. Alot of testing involved and evolving very quickly with all the applied science!
@@countryjoe3551doesn’t really matter if the motivation is a grift or not. Lighting ancient plant juice on fire to make things go is just lazy and embarrassing. If aliens are watching we will never be invited to any galactic engineering conventions.
Sodium ion batteries will NOT replace lithium. #1 they have a dual plateau discharge curve that makes electronics expensive and complex to utilize their full capacity. #2 they half a about half the capacity per kg. They will be used in cheap-ass very limited range cars but useless for actual driving.
I’ve been thinking for a long time that LiOn needed to not be in grid storage and other stationary uses, but mostly small devices and cars where weight matters. Sodium, and flow batteries for that matter where weight is not a big deal. Batteries on a large scaly are needed to support renewals at a large scale. I’m delighted to see this progress. I’m a Patrean here for a reason, join me.
I’d love to know which companies, start up or established, is actually focusing on domestic home storage battery development. It seem that this sector of the market get overlooked in favor of the more commercially attractive sectors. I kind of get why but believe the potential market is much larger going forward than some think it is.
There are things called web search engines. Besides Tesla, Blue Planet Energy, Enphase, Generac, HomeGrid, SolarEdge, ... all claim to sell home battery systems.
Agree and to date the massive EV contracts have secured the battery supplies. However the world led by China is starting to go mass production on batteries and they are talking a factory gate cell price of USD $ 50 / KWH which will soon spill over into house batteries. I agree the market is massive and its just price which determines it. I expect Home Battery prices to halve over the next 3 years. Lets see ......
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd I certainly hope so. Here in South Africa battery pack prices for domestic are still increasing. I think that’s more to do with high demand and profit opportunities being taken by the suppliers in light of lower cell prices. Demand is high here as the main grid supplier can’t keep the lights on.
I think SIB absolutely are the future of average EV. The cells at the charging stations can ensure both stability of the grid at high ratio of renewables, as well as charging performance that will blow our hats off. The cells can be much cheaper than LNC, and they can take the brunt of a rapid charge. Who cares if range is a little lower once we can just grab a coffee an get going again real soon every once in a while on our way? Most of the time we're just commuting anyways, and our charge at home can easily cover the distance. While plugged in, we can stabilize the grid and make money from our parked car, because SIB do not degrade a lot from being charged repeatedly.
If I remember correctly, the sodium-ion battery is also extensively researched by Chinese battery manufacturers, but it's unsuitable for EVs because its energy density is relatively weak, thus requiring a much bigger pack to drive a car. Therefore it is more suitable for scenarios of energy storage as a complement to emerging new energies such as solar power and wind power plants. As for EVs, the lithium-ion battery is so far the best choice in the foreseeable future.
Dear Dave, so great to finally meet you and shake your hand at the everything electric show. The discussions you hosted today were excellent. Fully recomend to anyone who has the chance to get there this weekend. Keep up the good work .
The sodium ion battery technology sounds like a winner. However, I keep hearing stories about how larger and larger amounts of renewable energy, battery technology and grid improvements are going to support data centers. I hate the idea that my state is now off-track to meet its emissions goals because of data center development. We need to give serious thought about letting new energy-gobbling technologies run amok. There's a serious time frame element to the climate problem, which many tech-heads don't seem to grasp.
time frame? you scientist? u assume, or u hear from them who ASSUME? >Earth does not even know we are here, just because everyone says it, does not mean it's true; but is is HIGH THIEVERY for sure
Yes, watching the energy equivalent of whole countries worth of domestic usage going into nothing but heat generation (the byproduct of all computing), for the sake of crypto currency mining/bookkeeping and training generative AI, can be somewhat distressing.
@@josepeixoto3384 This isn't really about what "earth knows". The Earth is ambivalent to our existence. It has survived much bigger catastrophes than humans. It'll be here long after we're gone with a new batch of actors (plus plastic). When people talk about "saving the planet" that's really code for "saving a comfortable place for humans to live on this planet". Every indication at this point is that we are well down the road of making a significant percentages of this planet uninhabitable for humans, and it appears to be happening within the span of only a couple human lifespans. And on the off chance that the problem is real despite you not believing it, the depressing bit is that if you can't believe humans are capable of having caused it, then you can't really believe that it's possible for humans to geoengineer their way out of it either. That we're incapable of playing a meaningful role in our own survival on this planet should something go wrong.
@@daemn42 would be the ultimate in human stupidity where we all fry ourselves trying to produce more Bitcoins. It could happen though cos we are certainly stupid enough as a species.
It is great news but I just have a small comment to make though. Here in China I can order online Sodium ion battery in all formats to replace Li-ion batteries. I mean all formats, from individual cylindrical cells to packs of several cells, from electric bike large battery pack to 210AH cells for home energy storage units. Of course prices are much cheaper than the Li-ion version and there is stock everywhere. As usual China takes the pragmatic approach, it is cheap, safe and easy to produce and they start inundating the market ahead of everyone else. I tried to find these in Europe and US online shops and the prices are insane with about 1 month delivery time (so basically purchased from China). AT most I can find some links to source suppliers... in China. My point is China seems to be already delivering their batteries in huge quantities on their local market which means they will be able to finish paying for their plant construction when we are barely starting our local sales and they will again have the cost advantage.
@@adr2t Sodium-ion battery are not like Li-Ion batteries, they don't "burn". As for the fires of electric cars in China maybe an analysis should be made on the proportion of electric cars. In Shanghai where I stay I think at least a third of the vehicles are electric (which includes all bus, taxi and most delivery trucks) so I guess the total number of EV might increase the total number of such fires.
@@dominiqueridoux2073 fires shouldnt increase though if its safer, thats kind of a lie they tell you so you keep buying BYD. Let alone the number of issues they're having with that car and the number of building fires that are out there. Doesnt matter - the problem is that they are made cheap and thus things that should be stander - get cut in production to save cost and thus the safety of the battery is given up to do that. China has a problem of this and until they fix that it doesnt matter how safe the battery by design could be if you dont do it correctly the first time.
@@Krydolph I find not mixing up power & energy helps make it less confusing. Sometimes when people ask me what the range of my EV is I say 155mph just to see if they get confused.
Sodium Ion batteries at the moment are only good for non power dense requirements. The low power density make them unsuitable for portable electronics and EVs. They are more useful for utility use however the real estate required is much greater than for a LiFePO4 installation.
Industry insiders are saying true solid state batteries are impossible. Semi-solid state are near ready - Tesla used a dry electrode in the Cybertruck.
Very very cool. I wasn't aware that sodium-ion had made it all the way to production scale in the states. Another energy density play for them is certainly going to be having this tech used for home and solar battery piles. Since it's substantially less volatile, it can enable more homes and buildings to store energy themselves and not require that they draw continuously from the grid - being able to draw a lot of their power during periods of cheaper energy production. While these batteries will be larger, they are much safer for traditional construction projects.
Never understood why sodium ion hasn't been a consideration! Shows you how much the lithium market is cornered through recourse and distribution! C'mon AMBRI get it to work! YT get this man a checkmark already!
The main problem for all applications is the wide (discharge) operating voltage range for sodium chemistry cells. Roughly 1.5V to 3.6V (call it 90% DOD). Whereas LFP goes from 3.0V to roughly 3.4V over the same DOD. Actually more like 3.0V to 3.35V over a 90% DOD. LFP has a far, far, far better operational voltage range for equipment designs to target.
Very little of the cost of a lithium ion battery is from the lithium. If you need to make twice as many batteries to store the same amount of energy with sodium, it will be much cheaper to just use lithium.
ha, good timing. a couple of weeks ago i heard some guys in my road cycle club moaning about evs. their issue was "the lithium is running out" and "china has all the lithium". i begged to differ, having remembered that chile actually has most lithium from your previous video (thank you) and also your previous video about sodium batteries (and shazzam byd now have a sodium ion car!) it's nice to be proved right but much better if these guys didn't get their science from the daily mail. hohum.
The Chinese companies including state owned ones that do this mining to try to corner rare earth materials are mostly losing money so they can't corner that market for TOO long because that also means the CCP is losing money trying to hold onto these companies. And for those who can't fathom this one, in both the EU and US and probably some other markets the plug-in hybrids and hybrids are growing sales and BEV sales are shrinking, and CHINA has a MASSIVE amount of overproduction of BEV which is what grew these companies in the first place while the CCP was paying subsidies PER VEHICLE. They ended that, but that's why there are tens of thousands of new, JUNK BEV parked in fields that the CCP has tried to keep the world from seeing. So, the US in particular doesn't want to import Chinese BEV and even though China is the largest auto market by volume, the US is about the largest market for dollar value, well, it is for any country but I don't know how it compares to Europe as a whole or the EU. US citizens don't like most of the BEV on sale in the US and hybrids have been catching on. These of course have much smaller battery packs. In China, the economy is in freefall so BEV aren't selling there which is why there are SO MANY BEVs being pushed at EU markets or the cheapest models to places like Mexico. But BEVs are PARKED AT PORTS in EU countries, tens of thousands, and I'm guessing that very soon the EU will restrict more from coming into EU ports because the supply chain is broken and people ain't buying in the large numbers imported to the EU. China is the no. 1 EXPORTER of BEV. Apparently it's not the number one SELLER though. Tesla is doing well minus the Cyberdump. Oh, and part of the Chinese export numbers INCLUDES Tesla manufactured in China.
In 2023, China exported 5.221 million vehicles, including 330,000 vehicles exported by Tesla Shanghai factory. But even if subtract these 330,000 vehicles, the number of vehicles exported by China still ranks first in the world.
So you're trying to say that CONSTANTLY pumping black oil from the ground or bottom of the oceans or tearing up mountains for coal is? They key word there being CONSTANTLY, as they're burned up and lost as soon as they're used as fuels. Unlike lithum which can be recycled over and over again once mined. And anywhere sodium exists, so those Lithium. They're a brethen of each other. The oceans have hundreds of billions of tons of Lithium in its water alone.
@8BitNaptime What you're trying to say is that Lithium is not a fuel. A fuel is burned up in order to provide energy. Intead, a Lithium ion has a very loose outer electron, which, in a battery, is used as an electrical force to provide electrical energy. The electron is never destroyed, it simply goes back and forth from one side to the other in recharging and discharging.
Thank you for this update on alternative to Lithium battery power storage. Good top know some company, Natron, is producing batteries that have more charge/discharge cycles and are much less fire prone than lithium batteries. Always enjoy your very well documented and technically informative Utube videos.
12v 100ah sodium battery available on Ebay for about $300. If you paired 3 of these with a 100 watt solar cell, with inverters and charge controllers, (total investment $1500) with the weather in central Texas, and charged the batteries all day, then sold the power between 7 and 9 pm, your return on investment is 3%. Not terrible. Better is coming.
Maybe hybrid plugin forklifts. It would take the strain off of the gas fuel it uses. They may both not be used at the same time, but the fuels takes over when the battery runs out.
I've been driving EVs for 13 years now, and they just keep getting better and better. These developments are another step in the right direction. No way I'd ever go back to driving on gasoline! I just wish that Tesla would get rid of its pathological CEO, for he is doing real harm to the EV market. Firing the company's Supercharger senior director, and practically all her team, was an appallingly stupid decision!
I second that. If Elon left Tesla, I might consider buying one (maybe). At this point, he's in the way of me - and many others - of buying an EV. Hopefully in about 2 years, there will be equivalent (or even better) options.
@@mm-qd1hoI'm no Musk fan, but it would be good if you could include at least a little reasoning. Some of the most horrendous people in history have progressed society immensely, and it can be argued that they were quite comfortable playing that role because they had a vision. Again, I'm not a fan of Elon.
The next "Carrington Event" will knock it all into the proverbail 'cocked hat'. I appreciate your videos greatly and thank you very much. However, depending overly on one source of energy supply and storage comes with considerable danger. Much more study is needed on the provision of essential services and materials that are independent of little electrons running around all ove the place. As for our almost total dependence on incredibly long chains of only two cyphers in our increasing 'digital' lives, we stand on the edge of a very precipitous, insubstantial cliff.
I assume the Seagull is just generally small and efficient, but also the 305km range is not that impressive by modern EV standards. That said, for long trips charge time is more important than range, to a point. So if it actually charges much faster than equivalently priced lithium battery cars it might actually still win out for travel times on longer trips, assuming it's in a place with good charging infrastructure.
The data center energy issue, will also spark another round of innovation. Sodium batteries is one use case. There's also mention of thermal storage (Exowatt). And also geo-thermal (e.g. Google and Fervo). Their demands are challenging. Not only power requirements, but 24/7 match. It's a good stress test for the green energy transition.
There are a lot of cool things happening in the energy storage market now. I think the transition to a 100% renewable energy system will be much faster than anyone expects.
Good competition comes greater innovation and safer products for end-user like us. And of course it'll beat the cost of batteries down so that majority of us can afford the transition from fossil fuel to EV cars.
Please contact Argonne National Lab to record a video on their lithium-air battery? Their battery specs published 17 months ago were: 1000 Wh/kg and 1000 cycles. That's more than 5 X the energy density of this sodium ion battery! With that density, our FPVs could reach Vladivostok.
17 years ago. So either it was A) bullshit B) impossible to scale. Works well miniscule quantities, but can't make a battery pack. C) Can't be productionised. Works well in lab, but just won't scale to be made in large quantities. D) has a safety or environmental issue that makes it not viable for every day use E) has a limitation that makes efficiency gains not worth it. Like short cycle lifespan, ot need to refill or dispose of some by product
@@davescott7680 So how did 17 months turn into 17 years? Did you read any of the articles or are you just too lazy to do a Google search? Please disclose your corporate affiliation. Is it Tesla, CATL or oil companies?
Minute 3:04 shows a diagram where the lithium ions are much larger than the carbon atoms. But carbon atoms are actually larger than lithium ions. Lithium ions have a radius of 59 picometer where carbon atoms are 70 picometers.
so, this type of cell seems very well-suited to home energy storage from solar, wind, or, and, in many places that have extended power outages in the winter (Texas, Midwest, Maritime Canada), where they could provide UPS kind of capacities for several days, or, in smaller sizes, provide peak load demand from smaller gas/diesel/propane-powered generators, allowing smaller generators that can be quieter, possibly more fuel-efficient when run at peak efficiency, maybe even stop/start operation... all good!
“Whining” about the “market leaders” in China is really objecting to the uncommercial subsidies provided by a totalitarian state to achieve strategic global dominance in targeted industries. There is no reason why they won’t do the very same thing for sodium battery technologies.
In fact, because lithium resources are in easy-to-use places such as South America and Australia, and the Chinese navy is still relatively weak and cannot guarantee waterways, China started research and development of sodium-ion batteries 15 years ago and has started to develop them in the past five years. Pilot test, and recently started large-scale mass production. As for American factories, I am not optimistic about the scale of mass production.
Guangxi: my country's first large-capacity sodium-ion battery energy storage power station put into operation - RUclips ruclips.net/video/OTNChIfTuIs/видео.html
@@billpetersen298 Pls stop taking undue credit for the USA. Whose military fleet has been patrolling the Gulf of Aden to ward off the Somalian pirates? Show basic respect to facts and truth.
Sounds like a good option for hybrid vehicle batteries as well. Capable of fast and efficient charging and discharging, yet the extra weight of the battery is less of a concern as it need only be around 20% of the capacity of a fully electric vehicle battery.
ah yes, and how about for taking high-power braking energy...?
@@lawrence18uk Yes, this is another advantage.
Super capacitors for that purpose work well .
Where it comes from. They talk about it 5 years ago 😢
Advanced hybrids will be the way to go for decades unless something universally better than lithium-ion in all fields sprouts up, so it's great to know this kind of battery could be used to make them cheaper, safer, more economically sound and easier to produce than lithium-ion for that purpose, even if authonomy on battery alone takes a hit. That's what the IC engine is there for.
There is a large Iron ore mine in the province where I live. The tailings left over after the iron ore pellets are processed contain Manganese in substantial quantities. There is also now a salt mine (i.e. NaCl) being mined not far from me (about 700 miles) so pretty much all the ingredients can be found in any place and in large quantities. There is also a potential 2200 MW hydro site nearby the iron ore mines. Sodium batteries seem to be a better fit for stationary grid storage than the industry seems to realize I think.
Stationary batteries also don't have as many weight concerns, and sodium would be far less dangerous than lithium in the event of a fire.
"Tailings": somewhat akin to Taconite? (grew up in Northern Minnesota, Mesabi Iron Range)
@@johnhopkins6260 Tailings are the remaining rocks after the ore has been removed. It generally gets put in big piles and buried.
Weren't the original issues with Sodium batteries that they lacked energy density, and instead of improving they found and developed lithium batteries that had more density from the get go?
@@arthurwintersight7868 I actually remember seeing a destruction test of some sodium batteries a bit ago where they drove a nail through the battery and nothing happened... also remember seeing one with lithium cells where it took far less to catch fire and then explode lol.
Sounds good for home storage solutions to reduce grid load coupled with solar.
Sounds also good for city wide storage solutions.
@@bernhardschmalhofer855 distributed local area batteries would probably work well, like local substations on the power grid.
I would be much more comfortable with this battery in my home given it's less likely to burn the joint down.
Solar will reduce the grid load by an insignificant amount. Here's the correct solution: stop forcing people to live how you want them to.
That was done about 10 years ago and the technology was an absolute flop. The battery could not deliver current fast enough to handle a large inductive load such as an air conditioner or a deep well pump. There are thousands of homeowners in America who are super pissed off because they got burned.
Amazing. This video looks like a news item, but it really is a 101 on battery chemistry and its applications. Thanks from Holland. We'll put this one on the recommended viewing list in the MSc program on the Materials & Energy Transition ❤
Wow. Thank you :-) I really appreciate that!
101?
@@preservedmoose one o one, an expression for "the most important" basic knowledge about a topic.
@@preservedmoose It's what the course titles at many universities have as a suffix for 1st year level undergraduate courses, in many subjects and disciplines, as in "Sartre for Beginners 101" in any Philosophy department you'd care to name (although they usually keep Sartre for later on: 3xx or 4xx.
At which university⁉️
RUclips university?
Using these in place of lithium ion in all the other stationary applications would greatly reduce demand on lithium used and needed for BEVs. Good stuff.
Absolutely correct! Horses for courses, this specific technology absolutely aligns to static storage, removing hot sodium cells from the use equation.
I am the owner of a BYD Seagull (known as the Yuan 300 here in Colombia, where I live.) After import duties, it cost me the equivalent of US$30,000. Since there is practically no charging infrastructure in my country, I rely on my home charger, which takes 10 hours, or a trickle charger, which can be plugged in anywhere but takes 24 hours. Despite these shortcomings, I wouldn't change my BYD for any other car!!!!
That's cool. What about build quality? My casually racist mind thinks of Chinese cars as lower quality. It's a subconscious hurdle I need to work on getting over.
@@user72974 Shortly after WO2 everything coming out of Germany had to be labled Made in Germany as a scare tactic. It soon became a quality mark, if it had that label it meant it was quality stuff you could trust. A couple of decades later the same happened for Japanese goods: started as inferior imitations and soon became best you can get. Do you see the pattern already?
@@user72974 The US and Europe are already hitting them with 100% tariffs because they're good enough to compete unless the prices are artificially raised by tariffs.
Really? I smell s😅mething
@@user72974 given most of what you buy today was produced in China I think it's pretty safe to say quality is whatever you're willing to pay for
One thing people don't talk about is power equipment. Something such as a forklift has thousands of pounds of counter weights on the back of them to keep it from tipping over. If you can use these less energy dense as some of that weight, while at the same time being able to charge an entire forklift in 5-10 minutes that would be revolutionary. I know a lot of forklifts are battery powered already but this could be much better than lead acid and there's still millions of forklifts out there that are propane or Diesel. There's also stuff such as gravel road graders and big heavy rollers that are needed for paving roads. These heavier batteries would actually be a benefit . And because they charge in 5 minutes this is also a no brainer for many types of industrial equipment
*Summary of Just Have a Think's video on Natron Energy Sodium-ion batteries:*
*Why sodium-ion batteries? (**1:54**)*
* Material availability: Sodium is abundant, unlike lithium which is geographically limited.
* Price stability: sodium is less prone to price spikes.
* Full discharge: sodium-ion batteries can safely discharge to zero volts, unlike lithium-ion.
* Cost-effective materials: sodium-ion batteries can use aluminium instead of copper.
*Natron Energy's Innovation: (**6:17**)*
* Prussian Blue for BOTH electrodes: Unique use of modified Prussian Blue for both cathode and anode, creating the necessary potential difference.
* Fast charging: Full recharge in under 15 minutes.
* Longevity: Less degradation due to minimal expansion/contraction during charge cycles.
* Safety: Less heat generation means no need for extra cooling, minimizing fire risk.
*Target Market: (**8:54**)*
* Stationary energy storage: Ideal for applications where weight is not a concern, such as data centers, grid stability, and EV charging stations.
*Natron Energy's Progress: (**9:30**)*
* Received significant funding, including a US Department of Energy grant.
* Opened the first commercial-scale sodium-ion battery factory in North America.
* Aiming to expand to gigawatt-scale facilities in the future.
*Overall: (**10:39**)*
* Natron Energy is a promising player in the sodium-ion battery market, offering a compelling alternative to lithium-ion for specific applications.
* They demonstrate an innovative approach to confronting the energy transition challenge.
i summarized the transcript with gemini 1.5 pro
Thank you , this was very reassuring of my own theories
We will believe it when we see it 👋👋
vapour wear, as they say.
sodium ion batteries at double the capacity of these (70wh/k) are already being used in cars in china
"hinese automaker Yiwei debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered car in 2023. It uses JAC Group's UE module technology, which is similar to CATL's cell-to-pack design. The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometres (140 mi)."
they are anticipating doubling that density in 2nd gen
Speak for yourself.
Which is why China is going to eat America's lunch
They have buses that run on capacitors in China....you know how easy it is too charge capacitors lol....they have buses running on them
If you have a small car that just does small journeys then sodium batteries are fine. Even if you have the odd long trip then a few charges along the way isn’t going to be too much of a pain. Then you have the life cycle of the thing which is even more convenient. I’m sure there is a place for them.
Especially if the recharge time is only 15 minutes
Natron will win the game for the electrical infrastructure market, where the mass of the battery isn't so important. They might also win in the market for container ships with hybrid drive systems. No big deal if the a ship's storage batteries take the place of the ballast...
One of the few websites where I can consistently learn new things. And enjoy doing it! Keep up the wonderful work, Dave.
Thanks for your informative videos. There is a tremendous and immediate need for big, ugly, reliable and inexpensive home storage batteries. The average three bedroom home will need at least 50 kWh of storage to mostly go off grid. Hey young geniuses, please disrupt the corrupt and complacent utility cartels and give power to your friends, relatives and neighbors with an affordable home storage battery!
capitalism will find a way…no need for idealist wars. people vote with their money
50 KWH sounds like an overkill. I have a 10kwh, and last 24 hours without charging. Though I don't use electricity for cooking, use propane instead. Water heater also propane. Don't run AC, use fan instead. Hang laundry to dry istead of dryier, you can get by with 10 kwh for just lights, computers, internet, fridge.
Propane is what we are trying to get rid of. 50kwh battery on every home.
@@jpsion you are aware that companies have know about the need to move away from fossil fuels for literally longer than i've been alive, and have mostly spent that time lobbying to not do anything right?
@@jpsion Capitalism only works with free markets. The energy industry is far from free.
One of the best explanations of the Hows & Whys of Sodium Ion battery chemistry & the technology behind it.
Can't wait for the day instead of stories about how well they might work in a certain application but instead how fantastic they have been working and exceeding expectations 😍
I beg your pardon? He starts the video with the BYD Seagull.
@@michaelnurse9089 I unbeg your pardon.
Makes Goodsense!
you've missed it. the world moved on.
You need to learn how to spot vaporware before you even click on it.
One huge result of this would be a reduction in the need for Lithium. Every sodium based battery utilized means that much less lithium is needed. Supply and demand tells us that will reduce the price of lithium in the market place or at the very least, slow the rise in price.
Agreed, stationary battery back up to cover solar and wind intermittency does not need to be Li+. There is a vast amount of that going in right now, it could ALL be Na+. I looked to see if I could pick up some stock in this technology. Alas, not yet but I'm sure it will come soon.
I live in Los Angeles, and there are companies who are working on harvesting fresh water from the ocean. The problem they have is what to do with the salt brine after the purified water is removed. Right now, they dispose of it right into the ocean. And, although it's "clean", it raises the salt concentration in the surrounding area, which marine life doesn't like too much. This may give those plants a market for selling their salt brine to battery manufacturers!! Ah... closed-loop economy may solve the problem again!!
Sodium-Ion IS the safe, less toxic battery chemistry we need to boost the energy transition away from fossil fuels. So it is great seeing these developments.
We don't need to move away from fossil fuels. Your indoctrination is showing.
Also less dependency on questionable regimes.
@@Lasstpak Fire fighters will love it.....
You are very unintelligent.
Well don't forget this battery technology was popular years ago in America and the company went bankrupt and the technology failed. There are thousands of homeowners in America that are super super pissed off right now with the sodium battery.
I am a trader in battery raw materials. Two years ago, the price of lithium soared, causing battery costs to be too high. Chinese manufacturers hated being held hostage by high lithium prices, and were also worried that overseas lithium mine supplies would become unstable due to geopolitical conflicts. As a result, they invested huge amounts of money in the research and development of sodium batteries, magnesium batteries, lithium battery recycling and reuse technologies, and lithium battery performance enhancement supplements, among which sodium batteries received the most investment because the price of sodium is one percent of that of lithium. Currently, sodium batteries have been used in China's energy storage industry. I suggest that the author pay more attention to research reports from relevant Chinese companies.
Natron please go into home storage. The grid is old and overloaded.
Let's hope it is affordable
Do you not know what a UPS is?
Don't pedal fossil fuel misinformation. We've had electricity for over century, so obviously "the grid" is old, but equally obviously electric utilities have continuously upgraded generation, transmission, and distribution. If they're not keeping up in your area, that's a failure of their regulators.
@@skierpage, it's spelled peddle, not pedal.
Rach, exactly! I can’t afford to buy a vacation home in London, New York, or Osaka, or Paris. And I can’t afford a Rolls Royce. And I most certainly can’t afford to drop over $50,000 or $60,000 US for the four or five Powerwalls it would take to run an induction stove and heat pump air conditioner after sundown. Home and small business owners need affordable battery storage!!!!!!!
Seems like a great battery for buses. The power density is good enough for the 50km range from end to end of the line and very fast charging allows for a ten minute turn around. All this at very limited cost and excellent longevity which should make for a great tco. Silent buses without local emissions could hugely benefit urban communities all around the world.
City diesel buses are bad news for noxious fumes. BYD makes nice electric buses.
China success is not due to just material. you have to remember that over 50% of the silicon material for solar panel was made by US before China totally destroyed the US solar industry. silicon is just as common, so why didn't the US recover? the reason for developing sodium battery is cost. that's what they are really competing on, until you know the prices if these system, it prematured to believe a solution is found as the goal of these enterprise is not to create technology, but to create a product for sale.
Semiconductor grade quartz deposits are NOT common.
@@gregorymalchuk272 that was what the market thought and why the german when with mixed panel believing silicon is rare so pure silicon model would not be economically... but guess what? all those companies that invested in mixed solution including those in china all file for bankruptcy. that's the point I am making. you can't look at commodity and pick winners... we tried that and got rekt.
@@lagrangeweiChina mass produced solar panels and destroyed the American market. What that really means is without a monopoly they have to sell them cheap. That's it.
Similar story with Chinese electric cars and the US car industry, just a repeat of history🏍️🇯🇵. Now we get the tariffs
Climate change should be the goal not profits and trying to make a buck. Ignorance of humans is unbelievable every year our poler caps are melting and the southwest our forests are on fire even the deserts burn now. I'm in Arizona every summer we have longer and longer periods of over 115F each year exceeding the last. We should partner with China to make battery storage as cheap as possible no matter where it's made.
50k cycles - that blows me away!!! 🤩🤩🤩
That's longer than a lifetime, if you charge once a day.
I was wondering what EDLC (with 1 million cycles) stood for. Apparently if means "electrostatic double-layer capacitance"; or super capacitors (which do not provide voltage regulation).
Lithium ion = 800 cycles
LFP(Lithium phosphate) = 3,500 cycles
Sodium ion is the future
@@larryc1616
mate, where do you have your 800 cycles from?
@@ursodermatt8809 basic knowledge like your phone using older lithium ion. My solar generators are LFP which is 10 years of charging life if you charge/discharge everyday! Sodium ion will last more than a lifetime and super cheap!
Thank you, another very educational program. It is always wonderful to receive factual opposed to fiction.
Thank you :-)
How do you know this is fact, not fiction? Becuz he sed it?
@@thisisnumber0 I read andcresearch.
@@thisisnumber0 "Because" and "Said", or maybe you prefer to sound dumb?
Possible use in ships and maybe trains. Sounds a lot more user friendly than most lithium batteries.
I wonder how many batteries you'd need to power a train. It might be the only vehicle where weight and space considerations don't matter, since you can always stick more engines on the front if you need more pulling power.
@@Kevin_StreetPossibly not that many batteries would be needed, too. If the batteries can charge very rapidly then short sections of third rail could be put in some areas that could charge the battery on the go. Potentially 1/20th of the track could be electrified and the train could never have to stop for charging and not need to carry batteries for the whole trip.
@@pneudmatic I can see plenty of teething troubles. Prussian blue electrodes are being researched for more than 50 years; they are not new. But there are many variants of prussian blue electrodes and the details do matter.
Train electrification is best suited.
Indian Railway Network has more than 8000 stations. Now we have to install 10MW battery in every station.
That will be 80,000 MW or 80GW. They can buy electricity at night. Now low speed regional train coaches can have Na-Cl batteries installed underneath and / or on roof. Charging at every stop, electrification done at fractional cost. Making it feasible on non-feasible routes.
Hybrid Propulsion ships are way to go.
@@Kevin_Street A much better way to power a train is overhead electric lines. Cos, batteries has to be carried, so a part of energy is always wasted on battery weight, which doesn't happen on overhead powerline. If you want to go further, there's always place for solar panel on the train top. But batteries doesn't seem to be the way.
Sodium is getting there, the problem when using it for ESS like an off gird system is the voltage range of the cells, inverters will have to be modified to handle this wide voltage range. Wheras LIFEP4 is 2.5v to 3.65v per cell, Sodium is 1.5 to 4.3.
Actually if you look at the voltage curve for the BluePack 48V it is 52 - 40V (100 - 0%) so perfect for 48V Inverters
@@reginaldpotts2037 So at it's highest sodium is 68.8 v in a 16s config, at it's lowest the pack would be 24v or 1.5 per cell times 16, so you see the problem, you are NOT getting the full range, check out Off Grid Garage, he did an entire series on those batteries.
Sodium battwry and perovskite solar cells are two gsme changers im looking.forward to
I agree. Competition by innovation is better than putting tariffs on everything 😅
If it's fire risk/charging is better than lithium, maybe the added weight is acceptable in a car. Or is there a large volume disadvantage too
It's already better than lead batteries.
As a biologist, I'd like to say that the claim "there's plenty of lithium so don't worry about it", is oversimplifying things. We're finding that a lot of lithium deposits are in places that will cause enormous environmental damage if we dig them up, and there are fights between mining companies and scientists, conservationists & local communities. Areas that contain endangered habitats and species, sometimes they're national parks etc. So there may be enough lithium but accessibility is a problem if we don't want to sacrifice habitat and species. If we're trying to switch to renewables for sustainability reasons we must also consider the permanent damage we may do when we pursuing such resources.
I really wish this was higher up. THIS is the huge problem with lithium.
Salton Sea looks promising. Not sure of the negatives, though.
OK. But _none_ of the habitats will exist at 5°C.
So what you're saying is we can't destroy some small ecosystem to save a planet.
I keep hearing this and get a good laugh every time.
When the oceans rise 30 ft. let me know if that small ecosystem is still above the ocean level OK?
I'm not saying humans should be irresponsible about making a shift away from fossil fuels, but we don't need to be stupid idiots either. Go talk to the tens of millions of people who've already had to leave their countries because THEIR environment is totally screwed, because global warming is a very uneven thing around the world. I mean, are Europeans going to keep letting in blacks from Africa as they keep losing farmlands because it's too hot? Are Americans going to let in.......... no they aren't even now without HUGE fights even though the US needs the labor force for manual labor to install the very infrastructure needed to deal with this.
So, be a biologist. A REAL one.
@@Hansengineering Right? So how high did ocean levels go to bury that ecosystem under the oceans?
These are all the idiot comments that keep showing up.
Hi I'm a biologist that works for Exxon-Mobil.
Why are we in Britain not producing sodium iron batteries why are we not investing in base load storrage? Our government needs a big kick
because politicians get their share of the money from already established mafia businesses
The presentation is so refreshing not only for its clarity but also for its civility. It is refreshing balm from our crass Republican normality.
There are at least three Sodium-ion battery EV you can buy in China for commercial purposes, and 10 Sodium-ion battery energy storage demonstrator sites currently in competition for larger scale for National grid contracts. So in what world is US beating China in Sodium-ion battery? Sodium-ion battery is already readily available in China on the market for energy storage deployment and for EVs, while in US everything is still in lab and research paper and angle rounds?
Love that comment on the end. Upping your game is a go go, not whining about the world being unfair :)
It was ignorant. Inventing new things is not the problem. Problem is you cannot import it into China. You need to build it there. With joint venture. Then they just take your idea.
Sounds like something a landlord would say.
Sime kind of exploiter no doubt.
There's a difference between whining and speaking the truth. Just have a Think about that.
Nuclear electricity is grid electricity.
15% of energy used is electric energy.
So, 100% is 7 times more grid.
Nuclear costs PLUS new grid costs is humongously expensive.
Cheap battery on the existing national grid protects the fragile grid and unloads the existing grid with rooftop solar PV.
Happy days
Thank you for sharing this with us.
My pleasure!
This is a great example of why "parts per million" is misleading. You really can't compare two different chemicals using ppm in any meaningful way. Since it is not actually "parts" like it sounds. It's actually grams of solute per million grams of solvent. So, since a Lithium atom [or ion] is only about one third the mass of a Sodium atom [or ion]. The numbers per ion would differ by one third as much. Instead of Sodium being 1,180 times more abundant than Lithium [as ppm makes it appear], it is actually only 356 times more abundant. Still, there is a huge difference in abundance between them, just not as much as the ppm numbers make it seem. I would recommend only ever comparing elements using their Molar Abundance, which gives you a better sense of how many ions would actually be available. I really wish that parts per million would be completely retired from use for this reason.
as always, excellent material ❤
Thank you! Cheers!
I’m American. I really appreciated your comment at the end about not whining. It’s time for American and Europe to stop the whining and start competing. The west subsidizes business all the time, so there is no need to whine about China doing the same.
You didn’t mention the 50,000 charging cycles! A lithium home battery in the UK typically has around 6000 charge cycles giving them a lifespan of around 15 years. 50,000 cycles in theory means over 100 years!!
Or Virtual Power Plant, since some home battery makers won't warranty VPP use
That is ridiculous and highly speculative because nothing will last that long. The plastics and the electric wiring and everything else would fail.
another claim but in a working environment likely much less.
look up LTO cells made by YinLong they been around for years super safe and rated for 30.000 recharge cycles with very fast charge and high discharge
they are used manly in buses but are really big right now in the car audio world
I use a radio that is 75 years old now, works great.
Don't you know that BYD started selling their sodium battery back in 2019? Recently they started using the sodium battery pack in EVs in large scale.
Natron's factory don't compete in this field though, they are looking at storage/grid capacity etc. At least as of now.
When I first heard of lithium batteries being used fir grid storage I just remember thinking it is such a waste of a relatively scare resource... Buildings generally don't need to be lightweight and as compact as possible like portable electronics...
It's not a waste, it's an economically advantageous use otherwise companies wouldn't buy lithium batteries for grid storage. They provide frequency stabilization, peak shaving, extend the hours when solar and wind can provide power, and increase utilization of transmission lines, all beneficial. So far none of the alternatives (flow batteries, iron batteries, thermal storage, compressed air storage, hydrogen storage, and now sodium-ion batteries) have proven to be better in actual wide-scale use.
@@skierpage I think by 'waste' he is referring to the storage of data, which by, and large is unnecessary, as the use of it is more about controlling people who managed fine without it before 'cloud/computer/AI'.
I agree with you, flow battery systems in stationary situations would have been a better use of resourses
PLENTY of lithium to go around !
Thanks for that!
Very informative and positive development.
When Lithium prices started spiking I was thinking there will be cheaper alternatives very soon. Nothing drives innovation like economics.
Very encouraging. Wonder about home storage
I think sodium ion battery tech is also well suited to home storage. Basically every non-mobile use case. It would be a wonderful way to reduce demand on lithium ion so that it becomes cheaper for cars and electronic devices.
@@user72974 yea also it means charging stations would stop being the bottleneck for charging. As the cars improve the charging speed would improve as they're still behind the max of sodium ion.
Well, except LFP calls that have already solved all of those problems, including temperature and charging speed. are already in mass production.
They seem well suited for home use. The main apparent downside is that are bulkier for the same amount of energy storage. So you may want to put the battery system outside of the house, rather than in the garage, for example.
Yes, the only safe battery you want in your home.
I don’t think most people realize the atmospheric improvement EVs make in cities when they are adopted in large numbers like in China. It reminds me of the smoking ban here in the US. You couldn’t imagine how removing smoking improved public life till it happened. Similarly. Removing the noise & pollution of conventional vehicles improves everyday life in ways you don’t expect.
I agree with your final remark. US, the bastion of free commerce places 100% tarifs on Chinese EVs? So what are the consequences? No incentive for US car makers to produce cheaper EVs. No incentive to produce any EVs. Carry on with ICE business as usual. For consumers who have been waiting on cheap EVs? Keep on waiting.
Kind of sums it up really.
We need sodium batteries. They would be perfect for hybrid cars, trains, regenerative braking, homes, stations, perhaps electric lawn mowers. As for handheld power tools, lithium may still be needed. That's fine, bc sodium takes the pressure off of lithium which is more scarce.
Elon Musk and his pure electric cars can go away. Hybrid cars with sodium batteries are the answer for personal transportation.
Gotta be really careful here, there are a lot of moving parts. On sodium itself, the fast pace of the R&D makes it difficult to scale-up production. This is great in that in a few years we will have significantly better sodium batteries than we do now, but not so great because the lack of maturity makes it difficult to create products using them, or production scale for those products, or for sodium products to be able to compete with the far more mature LFP products.
An even bigger problem for sodium is LiFePO4 (LFP)... there seems to be this perception on social media that Lithium is somehow difficult to scale, bad, or otherwise limited in some manner but the reality is that it isn't. The non-lithium/non-sodium components for both chemistries are almost the same. Literally almost the same, and the technology and R&D curve necessary to improve both chemistries is also almost the same.
That could put sodium into "poor stepchild" type of situation where manufacturers have to reduce the price so much relative to LFP that they can't actually make any money producing sodium batteries.
Both chemistries require approximately the same levels of complexity to further improve anodes and cathodes, and much of that is going to be structural rather than chemical. But LFP has far better operational characteristics than sodium. Far, far better. And likely always will because they are born from properties of the base chemistry itself.
I can't predict that sodium will be able to make it through this gauntlet without gaining some sort of killer feature (being able to discharge to 0V is not a killer feature, by the way). The cycle life and calendar aging characteristics are a huge unknown for sodium. The voltage range for sodium is extremely wide (which is bad) compared to LFPs very flat charge and discharge curves, and it is unclear how big of an impact the cheaper sodium (element) vs lithium will be on the cost of the whole cells moving into the future. Sodium simply might not be cheap *enough* to radically alter adoption rates.
-Matt
thanks for your contribution. i absolutely agree with you.
the way the chinese do "research" is marketing their battery cells and then see how the customer goes. like with charging specs and temperature.
absolutely.. the price of lithium already dropped by 85% since 2022 peak and is expected to drop further all the way through 2030, which would make sodium far less attractive.
Here's a question. What percent of a Power Wall or a LiFePO4 battery is the cost of Lithium ?
@@ursodermatt8809 ahhh so thats why every 3rd card is catching fire over there. got it.
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd it's all about supply-and-demand. It's probably something under 5% now, but I recall that during the 2022 peak, it was as much as 20%, which is why the industry started seriously looking at other minerals. You can't have that kind of price fluctuation in mass-volume commodity goods.
Please note that Natron makes batteries for industrial applications only. We have not designed, nor do we have UL certification for individual batteries for consumer use or for DIY purposes and for those reasons we do not sell batteries direct to consumers for any purposes including residential solar power systems. Our sales partners are unable to help you with those type of applications and we thank you for your understanding
Don't worry, China will do that job for americans instead of Natron 😅
I wonder if the Inflation Reduction Act in the US has helped in the development costs of sodium ion batteries, which is also a state subsidy to renewable technologies?
I'm sure it has.
Definitely, that was it's goal and information so far indicates it is working amazingly well.
@10:40, in my humble opinion, there is a rare but absolutely commendable piece of advice for everyone, including here in Europe too.
Sounds great for replacing DIeselcomutertrains or helping thirdrail trains to reduce the max contnious current use, when those systems are limited in that regard (Berlin has a 4kA limit per Train)
Also to upgrade the batteries in diesel-electric trains
I meet someone who was at the first show in England electric show. He said that it opened his mind at the possibility of what could actually happen. This is a great direction to save MOTHER EARTH !!!!
The lessons of supply chain logistics during covid shut downs taught us the importance of self sufficiency, as families, and all levels of government. We must have reliable, efficient, and innovative industries being born, nurtured, and supported with federal and state, and philanthropic sources of money.
For that effort to be successful, new businesses must sell the product at a price high enough to yield a profit.
That is the purpose of tariffs, to maintain prices high enough within the domestic market to stimulate domestic production, and growth of these new industries here in America.
Take a look at Korea, and the investment they made into chip manufacturing early on.
Very much not the point of tariffs and hasn't been how they've been used in reality.
So glad to hear the good ol' U.S.A. having some positive news, thank you sir!
How many “This battery changes everything “ videos can one man have a think about?
I know what you mean but this battery tech race is the game of the century so far. Alot of testing involved and evolving very quickly with all the applied science!
The Green New Deal Grift needs to be propped up and pumped up constantly by "The Next Huge Leap Forward!!!"
@@countryjoe3551 Maybe some day you may even get electricity in your neck of the woods!
@@countryjoe3551doesn’t really matter if the motivation is a grift or not. Lighting ancient plant juice on fire to make things go is just lazy and embarrassing. If aliens are watching we will never be invited to any galactic engineering conventions.
unless batteries get 4 orders of magnitude better, i don't understand how anyone can even care
Sodium ion batteries will NOT replace lithium. #1 they have a dual plateau discharge curve that makes electronics expensive and complex to utilize their full capacity. #2 they half a about half the capacity per kg. They will be used in cheap-ass very limited range cars but useless for actual driving.
I love the way solutions are always just over the horizon, when you've just bought the last solution which turned out to be not the solution.
I’ve been thinking for a long time that LiOn needed to not be in grid storage and other stationary uses, but mostly small devices and cars where weight matters. Sodium, and flow batteries for that matter where weight is not a big deal. Batteries on a large scaly are needed to support renewals at a large scale.
I’m delighted to see this progress.
I’m a Patrean here for a reason, join me.
I’d love to know which companies, start up or established, is actually focusing on domestic home storage battery development. It seem that this sector of the market get overlooked in favor of the more commercially attractive sectors. I kind of get why but believe the potential market is much larger going forward than some think it is.
Yea but that would lead to the average person being less reliant on big energy producers and that's a problem for them.
There are things called web search engines. Besides Tesla, Blue Planet Energy, Enphase, Generac, HomeGrid, SolarEdge, ... all claim to sell home battery systems.
Agree and to date the massive EV contracts have secured the battery supplies. However the world led by China is starting to go mass production on batteries and they are talking a factory gate cell price of USD $ 50 / KWH which will soon spill over into house batteries. I agree the market is massive and its just price which determines it. I expect Home Battery prices to halve over the next 3 years. Lets see ......
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd I certainly hope so. Here in South Africa battery pack prices for domestic are still increasing. I think that’s more to do with high demand and profit opportunities being taken by the suppliers in light of lower cell prices. Demand is high here as the main grid supplier can’t keep the lights on.
You can just use your car as home storage if it has VTL capability.
I think SIB absolutely are the future of average EV. The cells at the charging stations can ensure both stability of the grid at high ratio of renewables, as well as charging performance that will blow our hats off. The cells can be much cheaper than LNC, and they can take the brunt of a rapid charge. Who cares if range is a little lower once we can just grab a coffee an get going again real soon every once in a while on our way? Most of the time we're just commuting anyways, and our charge at home can easily cover the distance. While plugged in, we can stabilize the grid and make money from our parked car, because SIB do not degrade a lot from being charged repeatedly.
"It gives them a competitive edge over the rest of the pack."
I see what you did there, Dave.
I don't. Little help?
@TheGreatAtario (battery)pack
Righto. Whats the difference in price between the American battery and the Chinese battery?
If I remember correctly, the sodium-ion battery is also extensively researched by Chinese battery manufacturers, but it's unsuitable for EVs because its energy density is relatively weak, thus requiring a much bigger pack to drive a car. Therefore it is more suitable for scenarios of energy storage as a complement to emerging new energies such as solar power and wind power plants. As for EVs, the lithium-ion battery is so far the best choice in the foreseeable future.
Dear Dave, so great to finally meet you and shake your hand at the everything electric show. The discussions you hosted today were excellent. Fully recomend to anyone who has the chance to get there this weekend. Keep up the good work .
The sodium ion battery technology sounds like a winner. However, I keep hearing stories about how larger and larger amounts of renewable energy, battery technology and grid improvements are going to support data centers. I hate the idea that my state is now off-track to meet its emissions goals because of data center development. We need to give serious thought about letting new energy-gobbling technologies run amok. There's a serious time frame element to the climate problem, which many tech-heads don't seem to grasp.
A lot of us grasp it just fine... we just aren't organized enough to anything about it.
time frame? you scientist? u assume, or u hear from them who ASSUME? >Earth does not even know we are here, just because everyone says it, does not mean it's true; but is is HIGH THIEVERY for sure
Yes, watching the energy equivalent of whole countries worth of domestic usage going into nothing but heat generation (the byproduct of all computing), for the sake of crypto currency mining/bookkeeping and training generative AI, can be somewhat distressing.
@@josepeixoto3384 This isn't really about what "earth knows". The Earth is ambivalent to our existence. It has survived much bigger catastrophes than humans. It'll be here long after we're gone with a new batch of actors (plus plastic). When people talk about "saving the planet" that's really code for "saving a comfortable place for humans to live on this planet". Every indication at this point is that we are well down the road of making a significant percentages of this planet uninhabitable for humans, and it appears to be happening within the span of only a couple human lifespans.
And on the off chance that the problem is real despite you not believing it, the depressing bit is that if you can't believe humans are capable of having caused it, then you can't really believe that it's possible for humans to geoengineer their way out of it either. That we're incapable of playing a meaningful role in our own survival on this planet should something go wrong.
@@daemn42 would be the ultimate in human stupidity where we all fry ourselves trying to produce more Bitcoins. It could happen though cos we are certainly stupid enough as a species.
It is great news but I just have a small comment to make though. Here in China I can order online Sodium ion battery in all formats to replace Li-ion batteries. I mean all formats, from individual cylindrical cells to packs of several cells, from electric bike large battery pack to 210AH cells for home energy storage units. Of course prices are much cheaper than the Li-ion version and there is stock everywhere. As usual China takes the pragmatic approach, it is cheap, safe and easy to produce and they start inundating the market ahead of everyone else. I tried to find these in Europe and US online shops and the prices are insane with about 1 month delivery time (so basically purchased from China). AT most I can find some links to source suppliers... in China.
My point is China seems to be already delivering their batteries in huge quantities on their local market which means they will be able to finish paying for their plant construction when we are barely starting our local sales and they will again have the cost advantage.
台湾是一个独立国家的！
and yet we hear about fires and burning and de@$ all the time over there, doesnt sound like they're a head in terms of everything safe lol
@@adr2t Sodium-ion battery are not like Li-Ion batteries, they don't "burn". As for the fires of electric cars in China maybe an analysis should be made on the proportion of electric cars. In Shanghai where I stay I think at least a third of the vehicles are electric (which includes all bus, taxi and most delivery trucks) so I guess the total number of EV might increase the total number of such fires.
@@dominiqueridoux2073 fires shouldnt increase though if its safer, thats kind of a lie they tell you so you keep buying BYD. Let alone the number of issues they're having with that car and the number of building fires that are out there. Doesnt matter - the problem is that they are made cheap and thus things that should be stander - get cut in production to save cost and thus the safety of the battery is given up to do that. China has a problem of this and until they fix that it doesnt matter how safe the battery by design could be if you dont do it correctly the first time.
@@adr2t In terms of EV fires in China.. most of these videos online are of very low quality, ever wonder why?
"Annual battery production of 600MW worth"
That little " h " in MWh means so much to some of us....
What an amazing life you must have!
One of my pet peeves, Watt means nothing without time in this context.
@@Krydolph It's not like education takes away people's ability to enjoy life. So yes, he might very well have an amazing life.
@@Krydolph I find not mixing up power & energy helps make it less confusing. Sometimes when people ask me what the range of my EV is I say 155mph just to see if they get confused.
@@flatfootYou can infer from context what he meant! There must seriously be bigger problems in your life?
Sodium Ion batteries at the moment are only good for non power dense requirements. The low power density make them unsuitable for portable electronics and EVs. They are more useful for utility use however the real estate required is much greater than for a LiFePO4 installation.
I wonder if one day there be a solid state sodium iron battery.
Industry insiders are saying true solid state batteries are impossible. Semi-solid state are near ready - Tesla used a dry electrode in the Cybertruck.
Very very cool. I wasn't aware that sodium-ion had made it all the way to production scale in the states.
Another energy density play for them is certainly going to be having this tech used for home and solar battery piles. Since it's substantially less volatile, it can enable more homes and buildings to store energy themselves and not require that they draw continuously from the grid - being able to draw a lot of their power during periods of cheaper energy production. While these batteries will be larger, they are much safer for traditional construction projects.
Never understood why sodium ion hasn't been a consideration! Shows you how much the lithium market is cornered through recourse and distribution! C'mon AMBRI get it to work! YT get this man a checkmark already!
Battery density is lower, so less range, however it can charge much faster
Didn't you check the video? It's good for stationary storage. Not cars.
The main problem for all applications is the wide (discharge) operating voltage range for sodium chemistry cells. Roughly 1.5V to 3.6V (call it 90% DOD). Whereas LFP goes from 3.0V to roughly 3.4V over the same DOD. Actually more like 3.0V to 3.35V over a 90% DOD. LFP has a far, far, far better operational voltage range for equipment designs to target.
Very little of the cost of a lithium ion battery is from the lithium. If you need to make twice as many batteries to store the same amount of energy with sodium, it will be much cheaper to just use lithium.
@@faroncobb6040 except that gap is closing and closing fast, especially as you can charge sodium faster because there's no chance of thermal run away
Awsome. Once ubiquitous EV super charging arrives, sodium battery EVs will gain more appeal.
ha, good timing. a couple of weeks ago i heard some guys in my road cycle club moaning about evs. their issue was "the lithium is running out" and "china has all the lithium". i begged to differ, having remembered that chile actually has most lithium from your previous video (thank you) and also your previous video about sodium batteries (and shazzam byd now have a sodium ion car!)
it's nice to be proved right but much better if these guys didn't get their science from the daily mail. hohum.
Glad to help. Keep banging the drum :-)
The Chinese companies including state owned ones that do this mining to try to corner rare earth materials are mostly losing money so they can't corner that market for TOO long because that also means the CCP is losing money trying to hold onto these companies.
And for those who can't fathom this one, in both the EU and US and probably some other markets the plug-in hybrids and hybrids are growing sales and BEV sales are shrinking, and CHINA has a MASSIVE amount of overproduction of BEV which is what grew these companies in the first place while the CCP was paying subsidies PER VEHICLE. They ended that, but that's why there are tens of thousands of new, JUNK BEV parked in fields that the CCP has tried to keep the world from seeing.
So, the US in particular doesn't want to import Chinese BEV and even though China is the largest auto market by volume, the US is about the largest market for dollar value, well, it is for any country but I don't know how it compares to Europe as a whole or the EU. US citizens don't like most of the BEV on sale in the US and hybrids have been catching on. These of course have much smaller battery packs.
In China, the economy is in freefall so BEV aren't selling there which is why there are SO MANY BEVs being pushed at EU markets or the cheapest models to places like Mexico. But BEVs are PARKED AT PORTS in EU countries, tens of thousands, and I'm guessing that very soon the EU will restrict more from coming into EU ports because the supply chain is broken and people ain't buying in the large numbers imported to the EU.
China is the no. 1 EXPORTER of BEV. Apparently it's not the number one SELLER though. Tesla is doing well minus the Cyberdump. Oh, and part of the Chinese export numbers INCLUDES Tesla manufactured in China.
In 2023, China exported 5.221 million vehicles, including 330,000 vehicles exported by Tesla Shanghai factory.
But even if subtract these 330,000 vehicles, the number of vehicles exported by China still ranks first in the world.
Mining salt, way more eco-friendly than lithium. How lithium and "green" ended up in the same sentence is beyond me.
Lithium IS a salt and co occurs with salt
So you're trying to say that CONSTANTLY pumping black oil from the ground or bottom of the oceans or tearing up mountains for coal is? They key word there being CONSTANTLY, as they're burned up and lost as soon as they're used as fuels. Unlike lithum which can be recycled over and over again once mined.
And anywhere sodium exists, so those Lithium. They're a brethen of each other. The oceans have hundreds of billions of tons of Lithium in its water alone.
fumes.
@@junehanzawa5165 Lithium is not an energy source. That might be the key to the puzzle of your question.
@8BitNaptime What you're trying to say is that Lithium is not a fuel. A fuel is burned up in order to provide energy. Intead, a Lithium ion has a very loose outer electron, which, in a battery, is used as an electrical force to provide electrical energy. The electron is never destroyed, it simply goes back and forth from one side to the other in recharging and discharging.
Thank you for this update on alternative to Lithium battery power storage. Good top know some company, Natron, is producing batteries that have more charge/discharge cycles and are much less fire prone than lithium batteries. Always enjoy your very well documented and technically informative Utube videos.
12v 100ah sodium battery available on Ebay for about $300. If you paired 3 of these with a 100 watt solar cell, with inverters and charge controllers, (total investment $1500) with the weather in central Texas, and charged the batteries all day, then sold the power between 7 and 9 pm, your return on investment is 3%. Not terrible. Better is coming.
Over what time period?
Just speculating
3% = $45
Texas avg kWh $0.15
45/0.15 = 300 kWh
So 1000 cycles
So 3% every 2.5 years or so
I've just had a think....
Still the potential for water/sodiun induced catastrophic fire, then? Or will we get an explosion instead?
This is dumb. Scale is the only thing which matters. China does this well.
Material handling with forklifts and automation equipment is the perfect application for na-ion
Maybe hybrid plugin forklifts. It would take the strain off of the gas fuel it uses. They may both not be used at the same time, but the fuels takes over when the battery runs out.
I've been driving EVs for 13 years now, and they just keep getting better and better. These developments are another step in the right direction. No way I'd ever go back to driving on gasoline! I just wish that Tesla would get rid of its pathological CEO, for he is doing real harm to the EV market. Firing the company's Supercharger senior director, and practically all her team, was an appallingly stupid decision!
I agree. BTW - well done you for leading the way on EVs :-)
I second that. If Elon left Tesla, I might consider buying one (maybe). At this point, he's in the way of me - and many others - of buying an EV. Hopefully in about 2 years, there will be equivalent (or even better) options.
@@mm-qd1hoI'm no Musk fan, but it would be good if you could include at least a little reasoning. Some of the most horrendous people in history have progressed society immensely, and it can be argued that they were quite comfortable playing that role because they had a vision. Again, I'm not a fan of Elon.
All you see are what the media want you to see, you will know little about him, unless you have a personal acquaintance, otherwise its speculation.
@@YUDNSAY Really? Who knew? 🤪
Dave has managed to revive hope! Good on you, mate! 😊
The best channel known to man
That's very kind! Thank you :-)
Disagree. It's not yet known by everyone. We should work on changing that.
The next "Carrington Event" will knock it all into the proverbail 'cocked hat'.
I appreciate your videos greatly and thank you very much. However, depending overly on one source of energy supply and storage comes with considerable danger.
Much more study is needed on the provision of essential services and materials that are independent of little electrons running around all ove the place.
As for our almost total dependence on incredibly long chains of only two cyphers in our increasing 'digital' lives, we stand on the edge of a very precipitous, insubstantial cliff.
So, what about the Seagull? Sodium ion technology is successful in this small EV despite low energy density?
I assume the Seagull is just generally small and efficient, but also the 305km range is not that impressive by modern EV standards. That said, for long trips charge time is more important than range, to a point. So if it actually charges much faster than equivalently priced lithium battery cars it might actually still win out for travel times on longer trips, assuming it's in a place with good charging infrastructure.
As others have pointed out, the Seagull version with a sodium-ion battery hasn't actually shipped yet. BYD is building the factory in a joint venture.
The data center energy issue, will also spark another round of innovation. Sodium batteries is one use case. There's also mention of thermal storage (Exowatt). And also geo-thermal (e.g. Google and Fervo). Their demands are challenging. Not only power requirements, but 24/7 match. It's a good stress test for the green energy transition.
Bet those diesel generators will be part of hyperscales for a loooong time...
I see JHAT video, I press thumbs up, I am simple man.
Thank you for your support. Much appreciated :-)
This material is scientifically complex to me so I must thank you for going at a pace where I can grasp the concepts.
Very interesting stuff.
There are a lot of cool things happening in the energy storage market now. I think the transition to a 100% renewable energy system will be much faster than anyone expects.
Amazing what mankind can do when we apply ourselves.
Good competition comes greater innovation and safer products for end-user like us. And of course it'll beat the cost of batteries down so that majority of us can afford the transition from fossil fuel to EV cars.
Please contact Argonne National Lab to record a video on their lithium-air battery? Their battery specs published 17 months ago were: 1000 Wh/kg and 1000 cycles. That's more than 5 X the energy density of this sodium ion battery! With that density, our FPVs could reach Vladivostok.
17 years ago. So either it was
A) bullshit
B) impossible to scale. Works well miniscule quantities, but can't make a battery pack.
C) Can't be productionised. Works well in lab, but just won't scale to be made in large quantities.
D) has a safety or environmental issue that makes it not viable for every day use
E) has a limitation that makes efficiency gains not worth it. Like short cycle lifespan, ot need to refill or dispose of some by product
@@davescott7680 So how did 17 months turn into 17 years? Did you read any of the articles or are you just too lazy to do a Google search? Please disclose your corporate affiliation. Is it Tesla, CATL or oil companies?
As always very interesting. Love these videos!!!
Minute 3:04 shows a diagram where the lithium ions are much larger than the carbon atoms. But carbon atoms are actually larger than lithium ions. Lithium ions have a radius of 59 picometer where carbon atoms are 70 picometers.
so, this type of cell seems very well-suited to home energy storage from solar, wind, or, and, in many places that have extended power outages in the winter (Texas, Midwest, Maritime Canada), where they could provide UPS kind of capacities for several days, or, in smaller sizes, provide peak load demand from smaller gas/diesel/propane-powered generators, allowing smaller generators that can be quieter, possibly more fuel-efficient when run at peak efficiency, maybe even stop/start operation... all good!
“Whining” about the “market leaders” in China is really objecting to the uncommercial subsidies provided by a totalitarian state to achieve strategic global dominance in targeted industries. There is no reason why they won’t do the very same thing for sodium battery technologies.
This is one of the few channels that give me hope for the future, what other channels do other viewers watch for the same reason?
In fact, because lithium resources are in easy-to-use places such as South America and Australia, and the Chinese navy is still relatively weak and cannot guarantee waterways, China started research and development of sodium-ion batteries 15 years ago and has started to develop them in the past five years. Pilot test, and recently started large-scale mass production. As for American factories, I am not optimistic about the scale of mass production.
Times are changing. Biden is bringing manufacturing of electronic devices and clean energy technology back to the US.
What a strange comment. China has benefited tremendously. From the USA, keeping the world’s waterways safe, for everyone.
Guangxi: my country's first large-capacity sodium-ion battery energy storage power station put into operation - RUclips
ruclips.net/video/OTNChIfTuIs/видео.html
中国最大的钠离子电池储能站投产 - RUclips
ruclips.net/video/QyeIk6bBfNE/видео.html
@@billpetersen298 Pls stop taking undue credit for the USA. Whose military fleet has been patrolling the Gulf of Aden to ward off the Somalian pirates? Show basic respect to facts and truth.
Good solid stuff. Thanks as ever and all the best for Harrogate All Things Electric shows