Esports' Greatest Failure: How FaZe's Superteam Sh*t the Bed | OverExplained
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Super teams are an exciting prospect on paper. We expect them to be successful, but the potential for how they win is really what gets us going.
Sometimes though, what we get doesn't live up to our expectations... and in competitive gaming, no team sums up that kind of disappointment more than CS:GO's FaZe Clan.
Written by: Josh Bury (@ThrownGauntlet)
Produced, Edited & Hosted by: Miles Hackett (@miles_hackett)
Shot by: Matthew Massey
Illustrated animation by: Fermin Mulett
Unit Assistant: Brendan Fahey
Appearances by: Colin McNeil (@McNeilColin), Daniel Cole (@RandomTens), Kyle Matthews (@superkyol) and Kai Medalla
Footage Credits:
pastebin.com/3...
Music used under license from Associated Production Music LLC (”APM”).
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Idk how many times I've heard "Its Guardian vs 2"
And the LOOK AT THE TIME. *Cries inside*
It still hurts
I still cant watch that clip
It doesnt help that it is in every thescore esports video
I really don’t get y they kick guardian
@@ech0457 real question is why the fuck did they kick karrigan
@@ech0457 guardian wanted to leave. He asked for it
"suicide doors" are like the Rolls Royce Phantom, where they open into each other. the doors that open up are "butterfly doors"
or more commonly called "scissor doors"
PixitheGreat butterfly doors open laterally there is a HUGE difference
I agree they are scissor doors
@Cheese, suicide doors open outward. Away from each other. What you're describing are scissor doors.
@@darkerdaemon7794 no he described the suicide doors (sorta) correctly just got the opening the wrong way around, the rolls phantom and rx8 have em, he just described the butterfly doors wrong
I absolutely love these documentaries on esports. I don’t see anyone else doing this and I can’t get enough. I’ve never even played CSGO but I was glued to this. Great job guys.
Glad you're enjoying the content, thanks for the support! 🙌
@@mileshackett4781 please make content about other Mobas like battlerite, prime world, and vainglory and others on why they failed to go big like Dota or League?
AFK gaming also does similar things. Small channel but great content.
I literally started playing CSGO because of these videos
*Cry's in tf2*
Imagine spending all this money on a roster then seeing Astralis lol
Astralis SuCkS
@@samuelewaldo9470 Even after winning 4 majors?
@@spawnnpwn4166 Mom! I got one!
@@samuelewaldo9470 there are a LOT of Astralis haters out there...you can never be careful enough.
@@samuelewaldo9470 Lmao
I heard that when travelling the FaZe management had to buy 6 plane tickets instead of 5. NiKo had to have an extra seat for his huge ego.
where did u hear this
omg. damn funny bro i swear. hahahaha
OMG, you are so funny.
Does Niko have a massive ego?
A winning roster isn't made of just big names. You need good chemistry and sinergy in orther to succeed
*synergy
sea nur gee*
Agreed
*see neer gee
orther
"only one of them really showed up"
Honestly in terms of long standing form... GuardiaN is pretty much the GOAT, I'd always bet on him showing up.
He never showed up since he joined navi again
@@SohamChougule haven't been watching recently, that's unfortunate though... Especially given his history
@@Vandyno yeah, I think he lost some confidence after being in huge slump in faze. Hope he starts performing again before it's too late
@@SohamChougule he is actually getting carried as hell
He got benched in Navi
Gaurdian is always on the team that chokes at finals
He is cursed :(
Ez win =guardian ban
ez4faze now
@Soda King Except S1mple still has the years on his side to win a major. Guardian's almost at esports retirement age
And now hed a liability
Imagine thinking the avengers had good chemistry. I think FaZe was exactly what the avengers were
Except who's their thanos?
@@terraaw7680 Major trophies
NA OLW - Terraaw c9 since they both dead
@@zirzeal Guardian: I went for the head
@@terraaw7680 and whiff just like him
FAZE is the PSG in Esport
Exactly
Psg second place ti 8 and 3rd place ti 9 , meanwhile faze didnt even get one on them
Losos Solol that’s a different psg lul but same result: never winning the biggest tourney in spite of being in top form
@@paniaguabrocaeduardomiguel5548 lol wtf are u talkin? Neymar is one of the best footballers atm
I remember Boston 2018 final. Niko choked so hard that he ended up as bottom-fragger. The problem of Faze is in this video. No chemical in this team, thinking the problem is their 5th player. It's so hard to see Niko ruining his carrer like that
Luis Felipe Romero Serrato Actually Karrigan was bottom fragging. But as a star player i get your point. Niko was seen as the best player in the world at that point alongside Cold and he not performing on the biggest stage of CS is a dent in his career.
@@AstroSully i mean karrigan was igl the tactics and strats were already preasuring him but i do agree if niko didnt choke and the pressure wasnt all on guardian they could have won the major
@@AstroSully karrigan bottom fragging makes sense and is forgiveable. hes igl after all.
@@reasonxaphn1x Well it would be ideal if he can frag at the same level as his teammates.
Best players can't play good TOGETHER,that never worked out.Someone has to be bad and last,and when you got all good players they basically compete against each other
True. Gotta balance shit out right?
it was balanced but they kicked the igl... that was the issue
When your friends all have high rank accounts but you still need to carry them
5:50 bruh did I rly just see an assassin's creed tattoo
gamer
Gamer WORD
consoomers must put things they consume on them. that is their personality.
suicide doors are the ones that open backwards. the ones that you're probably thinking about that open upwards are scissor doors. there's also upward opening gullwing doors, but those are less common
FaZe clan: $700,000 team roster
Neymar: *Laughs in $200,000,000 contract*
13:56 Butterfly doors go up, suicide doors open backwards (the hinge is closer to the front of the car than the back)
Thank you for clearing that up, Matt will appreciate it 🤣
If the hinge is in the front doesn't it make this a "normal" door? AFAIK suicide doors are the ones that you can actually open while driving (and possibly jump out hence the 'suicide' part of the name)? So the hinge has to be on the rear end of the door for this to be possible...
@@c0dy42 That is correct. Hinges for suicide doors are towards the back of the car, so they cannot automatically close when accelerating.
Edit: Also apparently crashing into an open suicide door has a strong tendency to injure the person sitting next to it, hence the name. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door
@Rainer. Suicide doors actually only have one door with a hinge on backwards. What you're thinking of are actually scissor doors, doors that open into each other, where, suicide doors open away from each other. The term suicide door likely came about because old school Mafioso types would get these doors and drop sheet metal into them, so that they could quickly hop in and out of their cars and chance their doors for a little extra cover in the front and back.
Idk how to edit a comment on mobile, but, I meant to say use their doors for a little extra cover, yet, I didn't realize I totally forgot to mention this was for gun fights and drive by situations. Hence the term suicide door, since only, originally, mafia wanted these doors on their cars for doing gun violence.
10:51 NiKo was IGL when AdreN was on the team, not AdreN
some retarded video
@@Jonathan-ol9si i mean they were still dogshit and they still are
@@emzijss fake info
@Noah Ekeberg sorry what? When?
@Noah Ekeberg I guess, NiKo definitely stood out. But overall was meh
When the teacher gives us a full page to write and decides to add more homework
Me 0:16
9:03
*LITTLE BOY SCREAMING INTENSIFIES*
Tipsy its smooya lol
ruclips.net/video/Qu5JBinaPWk/видео.html here’s a compilation lmao
Obviously, giving NiKo the absolute control over the IGL from karrigan was probably the worst thing they did
Anyone here after 16:2 vs Astralis and 16:9 vs NaVi?
Anyone here after they won the tournament lmao
Yes lol, this video looks stupid now. But there is still time
@@BradM they recently won 16-7 and 16-6 against eg and eg didn't even hit double digits, future is looking great for FaZe
hope they keep up the winning.
Anyone here after 0:16 and 2:16 vs Astralis? :DDDDD
This team is like Real Madrid. It sucks, although I do have their stickers on a Tec-9.
@@donkeykong511 one bad match doesn't define them, they beat eg 2 times in this tournament and they won in the previous one. They 16-2'ed Astralis in the Blast Pro Series lmfao, but that doesn't mean Astralis is bad.
The ending: No. Suicide doors are doors that open backwards. You're thinking of scissor doors.
Was going to say the same thing about the suicide doors but we call the ones that open upwards butterfly doors
FOUR TYPES OF DOORS
Normal doors
the ones your mentioned: scissor doors
Hinge opens up the opposite end of normal doors: suicide doors
Hinge is located almost on the roof and opens upwards: Gullwing doors (iconic 300SL if you need a visual)
Thanks for coming to my red talk.
dont you know faze doesnt play fps anymore, they get people to do it for them while they vlog
It's an org, don't you know how these work?
lmao what a stupid comment
nflatei0n
Did you know faze RETIRES and they use the winnings to EXPAND their brand and made into one of the biggest gaming ORGANIZATIONS.
They use the money to FORM and CREATE an esports team in cod, CSGO, overwatch, rainbow 6 siege, etc.
It’s not just COD ANYMORE. They are creating teams for every game that has an esports tournament.
For example: Esports now has a rainbow 6 siege tournament and IM 100% GLAD faze created an esports team.
JUST IMAGINE a couple of gamers did all that. They made it big and SUCCESSFUL.
Can you imagine that?
They are RETIRED. They don’t need to do anything. That’s what RETIRE MEANS.
That’s why I like faze today.
So tell me, would you think faze BEFORE would be successful like faze today? Exactly. Think first
@@alohatigers1199 +1 for their R6S team, dudes making me a FC fan boy haha
@@alohatigers1199 what are you talking about?
rain on the usp and niko on deagle - so many great moments.
Collin's acting skills though! Get him a movie!
High end Lambos use scissor doors, makes opening them in tight spaces easier (because wide bois). Suicide doors are hinged at the rear and if a car goes by and hits one it'll slam into you instead of tear off, hence the suicide label.
Gullwing doors (used on iconic Mercedes) are hinged at the top, butterfly doors are halfway between scissor and gullwing. There's also the Model X falcon wing double hinged gullwing doors (also helps with loading) and whatever the heck Koenigsegg does with the spinny action.
Honorable mentions are Aston Martin doors which tend to sweep up as they open to form a cool aston logo from front view and Lexus SC300/400 doors which pop outward as they swing to maximize exit space per degree opened. I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but yeah, doors!
Thanks for the video y'all!
-Your friendly internet car person.
Thanks for clarifying, Corbin! 🙌
Honestly, I think its about the team chemistry, or lack there of. Faze may have thought that throwing a bunch of good players together in 1 team means instant results, but if they don't agree with each other and compliment each other's play styles, then they're basically just a tier 2 team
A couple of comments have said Butterfly doors open up, which is true, but Lamborghinis use Scissor doors. The difference is that scissor doors roll up while staying perpendicular to the ground, butterfly doors twist as they open so that they are parallel with the windshield
As a FaZe clan dissident this wad the most beautiful thing EVER to watch.
These documentaries, whether its CSGO, LoL, DOTA or SF its just perfect and mostly inspiring
Funny, almost the exact thing happened in the Dota 2 community. The most famous case is TI5's Team Secret. When they have Puppey, Kuroky, s4, Zai, and Arteezy, they did really well before TI and considered a monster team with five famous superstars. But at TI itself, they collapsed hard, and broke up in a rather unpleasant way (According to Puppey and Kuro in a recent interview).
Only when Puppey mixes the formula, bringing in unknown players with some of the most experienced and talented players into the team that Team Secret starting to find success again.
I literally started playing CSGO because of these videos
Normal door: swings forward
Falcon wing doors: swings upwards (named for the doors looking like wings when opened)
Suicide doors: swings backwards (named so because at high speeds, the door will have an immense amount of wind drag pushing backwards, breaking the hinges that attaches the door to the vehicle. If a person holds on, they will be pulled out of the vehicle, "Committing suicide".)
that C9 vs FaZe inferno match was the most butt clenching thing iv"e ever seen
Wow, Harambe references. My greatest tragedy in ammunition sales
Suicide doors are the doors that open reverse from regular doors. Instead of the hinge behind closer to the front of the car, the hinge is towards the rear of the car.
Lambo doors are the one that open and slide straight up. I think those are the ones you're talking about.
Gullwing doors are the ones like on the Tesla crossover that go out and up.
Hope this helps!
The new FaZe lineup is lit and a major title contender
heck yeah!!!!
I called it since the replacement of olofmeister for ropz the whole team is unstoppable now
If you look at it in the context of where Faze started and where they came from, it makes sense why they're trying to force the same formula in CSGO. Superteams work in watered down console shooters like CoD, because it's 95% dm. That's all Faze knows, so they're trying to force it in CSGO, and you can see how well its workes so far.
Very rarely do superstar teams win at anything. When you combine too many stars you begin to also combine huge egos, a group of people blaming each other, etc. Get a team with 1 maybe 2 stars and build a team AROUND THEM. Chemistry is better than individual skill all day
Just as a note on the outro, doors that go up are called scissor doors and not suicide doors. Suicide doors is the one for doors that open backwards
About the doors..
Look for a video called *"A Very Serious Guide About Car Doors."*
Also, from wikipedia
The main types of non-standard door designs are:
Butterfly - butterfly doors move via hinges along the A-pillar, on an axis not aligned vertically or horizontally to the vehicle or ground. A special type of butterfly door is a single door at the front of the car with the steering wheel attached.
Canopy - roof, windshield, and sides are one unit that moves upward, forward, or sideways to provide access.
Gullwing - (also called "falcon-wing") hinged to the roof at the top horizontal edge of the door, and open upward on a horizontal axis. Gullwing doors with a second hinge between door and moving roof panel are called falcon wing doors.
Similar to a Gull Wing door the Falcon wing door is a double hinged rear door on the Tesla Model X. The primary hinge is located along the midline of the roof, the second hinge is above the side window. This configuration has the advantage of allowing unobstructed access to the rear seats whilst also enabling the doors to open in a tight space because the door can initially open upwards before spreading outwards with a gap as small as 8-inches to adjacent vehicles.
Scissors - rotate vertically at a fixed hinge at the front of the door, and open by rotating on a horizontal axis, perpendicular to the vehicle's length. Scissor doors that also move outward while rotating are called dihedral synchro-helix actuation doors.
Sliding - mounted to or suspended from a track, and open by sliding horizontally alongside or into the vehicle sidewall, or open by sliding vertically into the vehicle sidewall or floor. Sliding doors that disappear into the floor horizontally are called rolling doors.
Suicide - hinged on the rear end of the door-frame, and open horizontally towards the rear.
Swan - opens outward like either a conventional door or a suicide door, but on an axis slightly tilted from vertical, or via articulation in the hinge to angle upward for better ground clearance
Some custom limousines have enlarged doors.
Genuinely feel bad for my boi guardian who never fails to deliver, but somehow hasnt even won a major yet
Yeah boi GuardiaN=god
i dont really watch cs:go but get a shiver down the spine whenever i see skadoodle hit that shot
One thing I'd like to say, although they added adren for a period of time, he wasnt the igl. Niko took up the role of igl after karrigan left and was later taken up by Neo. Other than that, pretty accurate video
To say Miles Hackett doesn’t say “would be an understatement” in every video he’s in, would be an understatement.
Lol I've never noticed! To say that I will be more conscious of that going forward, would be an understatement.
🤣
Miles Hackett LMAO 😂
Ok as much as I love this channel. There is not a single Call of Duty video on here. I know it’s not the biggest esport, but it is still huge and has many crazy ass moments, roster moves, player drama, upsets, crazy crazy games and more. I’ve never seen them mention COD esports one time. ONE TIME!!! Please?
You should check out:
The Story of Optic Gaming vs Faze Clan
The Story of Nadeshot
I thought this was the Team Liquid video.
Too soon man. Too soon
Seto Kaiba damn hahahaha
Luke Gaskin Wrong TL team was referring to League.
@@heirkaiba man, you work really hard to get the top comments eh? 🤣👏
Suicide doors are doors that open opposing to one another... look up the classic Lincoln Continental from the 50s and you'll see. The doors that go up are called "Butterfly Doors" but they are often referred to as "Lambo doors"
Why would you showcase kills against enemy eco for ‘highlights’
Suicide doors are doors that open the opposite way most doors open. They open to the back of the car.
I believe they are called that because the wind used to catch them and open them and people would fall out and get hurt or die. I could be wrong though so you can look it up if you want.
Seatbelt good suicide door bad
@@tappajaav yep that would have helped as well
Weird thought that someone would opt out of using seatbelt in this time and age
@@tappajaav they probably got the name before seatbelts were widely used. A lot of old cars had suicide doors and it wasn't required to wear a seatbelt
Came to same conclusion after reading in wiki
At the start of this video, I already expected a lot of Colin cameos
the doors that go up are called scissor doors. suicide doors open from the opposite side as regular doors. also, gullwing doors open from the top.
suicide doors are doors that open backwards. lamorghinis have scissor doors which open upwards and ferarris have normal doors
Suicide doors are the ones that open from the back of the door to the middle of the car instead of from the middle to the front like normally. The ones that go up are ironically called lambo doors
I'm happy for Faze they just won the Blast Pro C'ship yesterday ♥.
They are fucking fired up now.
FaZe fan here, can confirm, im hurt after watching this
They are gullwing doors that go up, like you are mentioning. Suicide doors open the wrong way, so instead of opening with the hinge at the front of the car, they have the hinge at the back. I'm pretty sure that is a colloquial term because I doubt any manufacturer would actually call it that, lol
Nice "Oh brother, Where Art Thou" reference editor, I see you.
If OG in Dota proves anything, it's that you need good teammates that work well together and not "super star" players.
Astralis would fit much more here since they are the OG of CSGO.
5:55 me right before the Boston Major final vs C9
Must've hurt
Suicide doors are doors that open to the back of the car. You guys are thinking about scissor/butterfly doors found on alot of super cars. Reason why theyre called suicide doors is in the event of rolling down a hill or attempt to jump out of a moving car with them you'd get clipped by them.
Do one on DK and OG vs TNC. Man did those games upset
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
they should have kept NEO and kept grinding it out they just needed some consistency to build chemistry and NEO was clearly improving they should have dropped guardian for cold. Guardian was underperforming the most and did the worst at the major. Now they are doing even worse it seems and now Niko has to IGL and he is better focused on frags/plays.
I won't say this was a complete failure. They were cruising through everyone for almost 6-7 months. Their downfall was when olof came back after a long break. They started to choke in big finals and started doubting themselves and their IGL and coach, kinda lost all the motivation to win which eventually broke them. It was a rough and tough phase for them, should have waited and tried to work things out with karrigan. He was best for this team, now it's just star players with fire power and no proper IGL.
Suicide doors are the type that open with the front (passenger or drivers) opening normally (pivoting from the front) and the rear doors opening backwards (pivoting from the back side) the ones that open up are gull wing (sometimes butterfly) doors
As they say: FaZe players are fantastic, just need to work on communication, aim, map awareness, crosshair placement, economy management, pistol aim, awp flicks, grenade spots, smoke spots, pop flashes, positioning, bomb plant positions, retain ability, bunny hopping, spray control and getting kills
FazeClan wants to know your location lmao
Thats true for me too. Can I join Faze?
Scissor doors on Lamborghini. Suicide doors are the ones that you find on a Rolls-Royce.
8:50 this is the why Karrigan has a lot of success with mousesports
“But look at the time!!!”
This video made Colin my favorite man on this channel in my heart #FaZeUp
a year later, Niko left for G2, who can FaZe sign now?
Between SK, Cloud9, Gambit and Astralis ( BIG for eliminating Faze out of Major too) they c*ckblocked FaZe out of any big trophies during that era hahahaha
That final map3 match between faze and cloud9 was the best ever in cs history
Astralis slammed them alot, a 16-0. And an assbeat in RtR when FaZe was undefeated.
"Suicide Door" is another term for a door on an automobile attached (hinged) at the rear. It's basically slang.
What you're thinking of is "Scissor Door" that lifts upwards. That's the name I know but it's called other things too... I think it can also be called turtle door.
Birb butterfly doors?
@@ActualRiot I'm guessing that's another name?
Birb yes
That cloud9 major win will never not be amazing
"...wins against SK and be number 1 in the world", I miss those times.
The problem for FaZe CSGO right now, is NiKo. He is the guy who gets every player to agree on removing Karrigan so that they can fill in a 'better' player while he controls the IGL role. What NiKo failed mostly than Karrigan was that in one interview, Karrigan was the IGL watching loads and loads of demos, every match, and every team neither big nor small, and he creates a form of IGLeading role below gla1ve who is one of the best IGL currently in Astralis.
NiKo also has a raging attitude unlike his cousin huNter whom controls his stress and anger better than him. Everybody was looking at NiKo, rain, olofmeister and GuardiaN at the time before Karrigan got bench cause their the star players but they overlook Karrigan due to his lack of frags, even tho he manages to pull off amazing clutches.
C9 won a major and look at em now.... sad :(
Clown9 fan LUL go back to LOL or DOTA
@@Lybrel ummm... I dont really play LOL or Dota but ok¿
I mean its just autimatic left from the major line up so what do you expect ?
TenZ got replaced by subrosa, daps isnt that great at fragging compared to other IGLs (look at gla1ve golden and stanislaw for example creating space or providing so much info for their team) mixwell is a good awper but it isnt enough to win you games, koosta has been lack luster and overall C9 is just struggling and throwing away money since the C9 roster isnt placing high enough to atleast break even on their cost
@@TheGoodguyperson this is sad but 100% accurate =/ even with the subrosa change they lost a bo3 to INTZ so i guess thats a rip....
@@chromegladiator TenZ has better stats than subrosa which makes the whole switch questionable and like you said, losing that game to INTZ doesn't help his case
Loosing to C9 at the Boston major was a hard loss for them, but what really fcked them over was that Olof had a half year break due to personal issues, leading to a long time with stand-ins and lack of motivation.. sadly
Team Secret in dota2 was great example.
Device said before Astralis copy teamSecret of dota
Team secret on TI5. Puppey said that everyone want to take over (as leader)
*best example
@@rocktypemagikawp788 i think what he mean is copy in terms had own organizations not about put 5 superstars players on same team. Secret was probably the first org that owned/created by a players same think with astralis
Suicide doors have the hinge on the opposite end of the door. Scissor doors go up on a swivel where the hinge normally is. There's more types but that's all i can remember
literally just watched that first rage clip actual video. what are the odds that the next video I watch had it in it. Damn
Suicide doors open outward towards the back of the car. So for instance, if it opened while driving, it would break off. It was just generally a more dangerous design, which was the whole gimmick, i.e. the name; and also why you don't ever see them.
Suicide doors open the opposite way of normal car doors. Think of the rear side doors on a Lincoln continental. They call them that because back in the day, cars didn't have seat belts, so if you popped the door open while driving, the wind would grab the door, and could fling you out. Scissor doors(I think that's what they're called are the ones on the lambos. Gullwing doors are like the doors on the DeLorean and some high end Benz amg's
Suicide doors are when the hinges are on the back of the door, so jumping out of the car while in motion is "suicide".
Played cs like 10 yrs ago and while i quit this story sounds familiar with league of legenss tsm. They got all the hotshots but it didnt work out. If i remember correctly the trainer of that team said we've tried it and know we know better.
I don't play these games but when an enemy is outlined the whole game it makes it seem really easy.
That's just when youre watching the replay of the match. The players aren't outlined while in game
Please do the story of Wings Gaming in Dota 2. Five chinese players coming seemingly out of nowhere and demolishing the entire scene. They also had some of the brilliant and novel strategies I have ever seen. Their team got screwed over by being boycotted by all the chinese orgs so they disbanded. I am surprised you guys havent covered them before.
gull wing door's open vertically and suicide doors open toward the back of the car, at least i think this is the terminology, i also wonder why suicide doors aren't more popular.
Instead of bingdongdanny, you should have went with the guy who mains 2 flashes and a shotgun
Butterfly doors are "lambo doors" they go up. suicide doors open back (opposite of a normal car). ferrari uses normal and doors that go up and forward
Superteams never work. I learnt this from FIFA 08, where I took best best and created a team, but I couldn't win any match. The individual player stats were high but team chemistry was low. That day I learnt that I don't need the best players to build a team but I need to build the best team with players.
I think it’s the mentality that they are the best of the best . They need to practice ,they need a leader so that their plans match up
good showscase of why astralis works so well. they all understand what the other players think, and would do in each situation.
After watching FaZe play with the new lineup... I cant even tellwhat their roles are...
Kinda feels like its Liquid where they let anyone awp it they are feeling it but with no structure behind it
If you're going to make a "super team" imo the best formula would be kinda like Liquids here each one of their players can do any role. Depending on whos alive and the map. I feel if FaZe kinda uses the old VP plow strats with Liquids role switch mindset depending on maps and ingame form, I think they can find success.
i've been trying to stay positive since that loss in Boston, now they just out here losing to a team like VP...