As Kris Irmansyah pointed out, there are scenes in Squall's flashbacks that were after disc one. This is just one of many bits of "evidence" for the unfounded Squall is Dead theory that don't work.
Squall, Aeris and Zack are in Kingdom hearts games what if the KH universe is actually part of a dream where everyone who died is there. except for Cloud, you cannot bring up FF without Cloud
on my first playthrough, squall died while fighting ifrit. so you could say he didnt really recover, the game i played from then on was actually all on squalls head as he lay dying on the fire caverns floor.
+Matt Vinci I think you just assume there aren't good answers for everything you're curious about in the game, because you really want this theory to sound plausible. "Here we are, on disc 2, at Zell's "mom"'s house. In Zell's bedroom, which the party was not previously allowed to enter." So because Zell finally lets Squall and the others see his room, Squall must be dreaming it? Seriously? Squall is able to encounter a demon in a lamp, talking mummified ghosts, talking monkeys, talking *shadows* and experience the same dream as two of his peers at the same exact time (twice!). But you think getting to see Zell's room is the fantastic item we should fixate on. Wow. "Also, how about when Squall, and Rinoa are floating out in space, and Squall goes UGHH WERE GONNA DIE OUT IN SPACE, THINK! n then out of nowhere, a moon appears that has the Ragnarok floating around it." While this is certainly what they call in literature a deus ex machina, there's absolutely no evidence to support thinking that Squall is in control of it. If he were, then Rinoa wouldn't have ever been separated from him in the first place. "Hmm, n then the whole weird conversation between Rinoa, and Squall in the Ragnarok." Do you have a specific statement you think lends credence to the theory? Like I said, everything has a good enough answer; we don't have to make up fan fiction and then pass it off as serious theories to explain the parts of the canon we don't understand.
Strangely, I've never thought of it that way. Despite beating the game tons of times, I never noticed a 'change' from it being realistic to being crazy/messed up. It's an interesting, and quite possible, theory.
So...Why interrogate him at all, then? The way the characters behave in the torture scene, seems to suggest they think he does know something. About the 'true meaning of SeeD', to be exact. It's all right there, as far as motives are concerned. Doesn't mean they're right to assume he does, but they also seem a little too stupid to realize it. Hence the torture.
They had more than enough reason to think Squall would know about the meaning of SeeD. As Seifer himself says *in the game,* the assumption is that the meaning of SeeD is given when someone *becomes* a SeeD (which sounds perfectly rational to think). Moreover, he was leader of the group that attacked Edea; they probably figured he was given some sort of reason why she was to be attacked.
Fact once you beat Final Fantasy VIII and watch through the credits a secret video clip shows everyone at a party, finally it goes to Rinoa alone on a balcony looking up into the night sky then she turns and smiles at, you guessed it, Squall. Now whether Squall died after the battle against Ultimecia and Rinoa being a sorceress called him back, or instead she simply believed in their promise together and through their love, it brought him back, or whether he wasn't dead yet and Rinoa healed him with her powers, any way you look at it, Squall is alive with Rinoa at that final secret scene. So our Stone Faced hero survives the war and proves love conquers all. Squall is a die hard if you hadn't noticed.
3:50 is when Squall and Rinoa got stuck somewhere beyond time and space. Squall then choose a static timeline, as a place to come together and meet. This is because he kept jumping from one timeline to another like crazy, that is when things got 'fuzzy'. The whole thing feels erratic. He then decided, 'I will pick this one', and managed to stay firm… Note at one point during development, Squall and Rinoa were meant to be revealed as Brother and Sibling. In another point, Edea as Rinoa from the future, and she kept waiting for Squall ala "Somewhere in Time". This is why when Selphie used her video camera at the ending, the person Rinoa talked to is not seen. That is because it was not meant to be Squall… Chaos Assisted Story Telling (CAST) #SecretSpaceProgram #disclosure
I teared up when you mentioned that he couldn't remember her face. This game has SUCH a deep meaning! I have LOVED it since I was a kid... and the Squall is Dead theory adds all new depth to an already perfect story. Excellent video :)
It has been a while since I last played the game so I do not remember every detail. This might just be one of the most popular FF theories. But this theory is utter bullshit if you ask me. Those who support this theory just do not understand the story, the events and the world. (No offense if someone supports it) One of the biggest things people say considering this theory is that Squall was impaled. Well that Ice Spike sure hit him, but it mostly in his shoulder or side. I think he probably broke rib or two but I doubt that strike impaled any major organs. That "No wound" thing. So what, he is healed. About that "going crazy". Ultimecia's presence, Magic, Illusions. Pretty basic Fantasy stuff. I think gaming world is richer with many different theories and Final Fantasy games are not the most simplest games. But this theory has nothing adamant. I have played this game after I first heard this theory and I really think that the theory is pretty rickety. There is explanations.
@JayBarrington It's the last thing Ultimecia says to the party as she is dying. No one can really understand why she said it, but if you put it in the context of this theory then it makes perfect sense. Squall is dying and his mind is fighting to retain the memories of his childhood, everything he's felt, everything' he's said, etc, but she is telling him that time will not wait for him. He is dying and no matter how hard he holds on, every memory will escape him.
I actualy love this idea, and it actually makes sense considering the weird shift the game takes in disc two, and indeed works with the theory Irving puts forward about GFs taking your memory.
I got chills when he mentioned the title. That makes the ending and the whole game make sense. The part about emotions and stuff fleeting at the end proves it. It makes complete sense.
1. "No wound" could easily mean someone healed him, but he doesn't know who or when, or that the ice shard (which did seem to hit more to the side than in the heart) didn't cause that *kind* of wound. Maybe it was just to put him out for a while, it doesn't say. 2. No, things are not very realistic before Disc 2. Iguana statues coming to life? Minotaurs and mummified ghosts? Zombie presidents? 3. I don't see how an evil "witch" launching missiles is unrealistic. 4. The Gardens flying and floating is weird, sure, but they had already shown hoverboards so we know the *technology* was there. And it's not like we hadn't seen weirder in previous games - floating *continents,* for example. 5. Bikers jumping into the Garden isn't unrealistic weird, just dangerous and likely at least a few wouldn't make it. Iguana statues coming to life beats all of this! 6. We have to remember that things get insanely weirder out of nowhere in a *lot* of FF games. In FF12, you go from just people being your enemies in a very realistic sort of war, to doing the bidding of godlike creatures that look hella weird. In FF6, there are these statues that pop up out of nowhere and moving them changes the entire planet's structure! Compared to this kind of stuff, FF8 is still somewhat realistic actually even to the end! 7. Every time someone tries to sell me on this theory, they imply or flat-out say that Rinoa didn't like Squall until after he "died". This is not the case! And I feel quite insane being the only one who remembers her shamelessly throwing herself at Squall when they first meet! I chalk all of that back and forth stuff to just her being a teenage girl. They're like that quite often- don't know what they want. Why construct an elaborate theory such as this when "Teenagers!" will do? 8. Squall's promotions didn't just start being sudden after disc 1. He was made the leader of every group he was in very quickly after just completing his first SeeD mission. Clearly, they saw something in him that made him qualified to take on increasingly large projects at a rapid rate (I.e., you don't ordinarily send a guy who's only led in one mission to assassinate such a world-renowned figure as the sorceress!) 9. I took Ultimecia's words to be telling her opponents that they should just give up and let her win because it's all going to end anyway. That stopping her wouldn't matter, that kind of thing. And even if I were to entertain the idea that she's talking directly to Squall about his life, why did she/it say anything at all? Why didn't it just end? It makes more sense, to me, as a villain's final temptation than some sort of "Welcome to the end" for Squall. 10. The part with Squall not being able to focus on Rinoa's face was actually already foreshadowed, with the instructions given to them all before they went to the future. They were told to remember each other, and that would bring them back.
Vic 2.0 Some people just say things like that with nothing to back it up, cuz in their heads, saying someone is wrong, is good enough. Just let it shatter on impact, its a hollow stone. There is a lot of logic to what you said.
shintaiden "He should have a scar or something from the attack." No, actually. The intro shows how magical attacks differ from physical. Seifer hits Squall with fire to the face. No blood, no mark, no permanent damage. Edea hits Squall with an ice attack. No blood, no mark, no permanent damage. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. "Also, why the hell would they bother to heal him? To interrogate him? He's been a seed for like two weeks, why not interrogate the others who have been in seed longer." She wasn't the one who decided to interrogate him first; Seifer was, because of their rivalry. Explained in game. "Compared to disc one, the other discs are way more out there. Talking lions all over the place, flying gardens and all that other stuff is way more out there than fighting some monsters." How bout talking monkeys? Talking shadows? Being pulled into an alternative dimension to essentially fight the devil? You can do all of that in Disc 1... "face palm" Worst counter argument ever. Out of time, but I'll come back to these points later today. Just comment a little something to make sure I remember!
shintaiden Okay, let's demolish your illogical arguments here and now. I'll probably have to block you afterwards (because I don't think you're going to grow up and stop insulting people when you're proven wrong). But we'll see. "4. You can't compare FF 8 to other ff games, they all have their own worlds and times." BS. If it's okay for one Final Fantasy game, it's okay for the others. "Floating a two foot hover board is different than floating an entire city." How so? Can you explain to me how the magic keeping the Garden up would be insufficient in real life? (This oughta be good.) "The floating garden, and freaking army base robot wrestling is too ridiculous for that world. It's too dream like." Compared to *what,* in the FF8 universe? Seriously, it sounds like you're wanting to recreate the entire game, just so you can point at things that do not fit. "5. Iguana statues has nothing on giant robot bases and talking lions all over the place, ffs." Statues coming to life is *absolutely* more dreamlike than "giant robot bases", for the simple fact that at least the latter could conceivably happen, through science, but the former requires magic. And talking "lions" (which are really not lions, BTW) have nothing on talking monkeys and talking shadows, which you can see on disc 1. "6. No, key points of the plot like Seifer's defection, Squall's wound etc. are not explained." In that an explanation is right there in front of you, yes they are. Seifer abandoned Garden because he was brainwashed by Edea; this much is very obvious. And Squall had no wound because he had been healed for interrogation. This is why when Seifer walked in, he wasn't the least bit surprised to find that Squall had been healed. You're just mad because the game didn't hold your hand the whole time and spell everything out for you. "and don't refer to other ff games, different world, different rules." Nonsense. All stories within a genre either require following certain rules, or they don't. You can't just pick and choose which FF should follow these rules and which ones shouldn't. "Rinoa was far more into Seifer than she was Squall." In the beginning, sure. But when Squall told her Seifer was still alive, after she thought he'd been executed? She gives a very weak response, compared to how she reacts when she finds out *Squall* is still alive a little later. "Rinoa was happy to see Squall because he was a seed." True enough that her leaping into his arms at that moment proves nothing (that's why I didn't use it), but seconds afterward... Rinoa: "SeeD members dance quite well, don't they?" Squall: "(It's so I can be a good SeeD agent.)" Rinoa: "Ohhh... So it's work related. That's too bad..." This indicates that she had been hoping they had a certain chemistry. Again, *pay attention* to the story if you're going to attempt to criticize it. "Rinoa ditched him at the party for Seifer in an instant and admitted she still had strong feelings for him." She never said "strong". And she only ditched Squall for Seifer because she was trying to contact Headmaster Cid, to work out an arrangement for the sake of the Forest Owls. "Conveniently for Squall this goes away and everyone turns Seifer into your typical bad guy." Are you trying to say he wasn't evil on Disc 1, but only on Disc 2, after he "died" and was dreaming? Because if you watch the cutscenes at the parade, you can see Seifer giving the camera some unmistakable "I'm evil" looks. That is, again, because he was being brainwashed by Edea. "Again, it's way too convenient for Squall to be the one hope for seed and saving the world. almost overnight." Squall wasn't the only hope, his friends fought beside him. But he was given authority at a rapid rate, partially because as the game showed us he was the most qualified, and partially because he was the only one Edea (and Cid, by extension) knew would be fighting the sorceress in the end. "This is typical in ego centric dreams, fate is used as a vehicle to move the dream along. Again it's way too convenient." FF8 is one of the few stories in which there is nothing "convenient" about it, as explained above. "Then that is on you. It makes way more sense when you look at it from a perspective where Squall dies and his memory and dreams fade." No, it does not. Because again, who says you get a nice clear message "You are about to die for real this time" before you finally go? That's making an assumption to support *another* assumption. Not at all logical, my friend. "If what you say is true, than why would she say those lines about childhood? It's pretty clear that she is telling Squall to reflect upon his life because it is ending soon." It is not "clear", if you have to interpret them, which we do. But the point is just that there are many possible interpretations. She could even be talking to *herself* for all we know, seeing as how she is about to die and she knows it. "If that was the case, then why does he focus only on the events from disc one?" He doesn't. Watch it again. Rinoa on the balcony of the flying Garden is from Disc 2, and Seifer handing her over to Adel is from Disc 3, as is her being out in space to begin with. "Almost all of the images are of him dying, Rinoa screaming, and Squall without a damn face." Simply Squall losing his mind. But answer me this one, if you think you can: If Squall chooses to fight Diablos on Disc 2, after he supposedly "dies", the battle is the exact same as it would've been if he had fought him on Disc 1, *before* he "dies"... How is it that his imagination can create the battle with perfect accuracy? Even though he's never seen the battle before? "A FUCKING MINI GLACIER PIERCES HIS CHEST, EVEN SQUALL IS AMAZED THAT THERE IS NO WOUND, SO WHAT YOU SAY ISN'T TRUE BY WHAT SQUALL SAYS." It doesn't matter what Squall says, because he didn't even *see* the fact that there was no blood on the ice shard! All he knew was that it felt like he had been impaled by a physical object, same as he clearly felt like he had been burned by actual fire from Seifer's fire magic in the intro. You cannot explain why there is no blood, which is why you're dancing around this point in desperation. "And yes it hits his chest, not his shoulder." It depends on what angle you look at it from, and/or what frame you pause it on. But no matter *what* angle or frame you view, it clearly misses his heart. Let's not be denying that. "Even if what you say is true about magic (which it isn't), he wouldn't have survived that giant fall." It's *certifiably* true, proven *in the game,* and there was no "giant fall". He fell from the parade float, that's it. They only blurred out the ground because it would look stupid to watch him fall just a few feet. "And yes, all the most fantastical elements in disc one PALE in comparison to the other discs. Creatures forming up on the moon," That's revealed in the first disc. The Information section of the Tutorial talks about the Lunar Cry. "A witch launching missiles," Again, there is absolutely nothing fantastical about launching missiles; I have no idea why you keep insisting on this one! "fighting robot bases, flying gardens, etc. etc." Why are you counting this twice? In any case, it's nowhere near as fantastical as being pulled into an alternate dimension to do battle with the devil (aka Diablos). "You either have to accept the fact that Squall dies, or you have to accept the fact that FF8 is a poorly written and inferior game." You have to give me *reason* to think one or the other, actually. That's how it works. "FF7 shits all over FF8." 7 was good, but nowhere near as good as 8. They shower you with mandatory and annoying mini-games every 10 steps, make you suffer through annoying characters like Yuffie and Cait Sith, and then end it with a boss battle that's just plain retarded from start to finish. Get serious for a second!
first after watching your video, it trigger me for me to think, first squall actually didn't die, from the ice spear edea shoot, first edea shoot the ice spear, i think she still have the slight control of the Matron taking care of them, so she shoot at the right side avoiding the heart location and pierce through the lungs or stomach area, with magic and technology so high, i doubt he dies and why no wound, i think edea heal him herself due the control and memory influence of the Matron, dont tell me you cant, as you can summon gfs and use so powerful magic, and the torture scen of squall is because seifer is in jealous mode and the word ultimeica saying, is actually telling squall that if he kill her, the time will alter to the correct pace, and this will erase all of the current existence of all history and the ending scene, as they defeat ultimeica, the time is reverted and create a time paradox, as they destroy the ultimeica's plan, which mean erasing ultimeica existence, which move back the timeline, that why you cans see squall traveling back to time to Matron ,and seeing the scene he should not be there, the scene fading away to total darkness showing their success in existing ultimeica, and this mean in the actual history squall's sister never disappear, their matron never gone, cid never create the school, which means that squall will never meet rinoa, which is proofed by the screen of rinoa distorting away, and the face with a black hole of squall is there is because, due to the history change, which will lead to a different future, and squall may not look like the current squall, which make the future squall looks unknowable to current him And the ending rinoa finding squall, that part, i guess is rinoa using the remaining power the Ultimecia in her body to maintain that timeline, make it a future for them is possible, and not being disperse throughout time and all characters being destroy or fade away in the time paradox
NO one will read or even remember this. If you played Nanobreaker (A PS2 GAME) There's a part where your main character gets cut in half by the antagonist. Then he awakes and you realize you were a machine (KIND OF) Then you see that guy again and you tell him "You skipped my vitals organs didn't you?" **THING HERE IS THAT EVEN THO JAKE (THE MAIN CHARACTER FROM THE GAME) GOT SLICED AND HE SURVIVED...THERE WAS AN ACTUAL EXPLANATION.
A well thought out explanation, but possessing one flaw... Irvine runs into battle with Rinoa to help you out. They were all there, and Irvine was one of the three witnessed to be attacking Edea head on by the entire populace of Deling City.
Interesting theory but its premise is based on a cop out to keep the game going. That little one liner "no wound" doesnt really lead anywhere. Its just a way of telling the player the character is back to 100% again and to forget that he was just impaled by an icicle. As for Seipher going bad, he was always on the fence, both good and bad, Edea manipulated and controlled him to finally transition to the bad side. As for things going crazy later on in the game, well... it is a Final Fantasy game after all lol. They tend to do that. Another as for, the fleeting memory is caused by the Guardian Forces. Its explained in the game, its also the reason why none of your party remembers the orphanage. junctioning GF's cause loss of memories. Cool theory, but I dont really see any evidence for it.
But you support your theories with just saying well you know it's final fantasy. Look it from different angle. What about the fucked up ending? No wound is pretty strange I mean most game at least have decency to explain what happened. The game was mostly realistic until disc 2. Lions are Squall symbol. Dude I know it's hard but squall died. Squall had his life in his last moments. It was his final fantasy.
Zabusy01 I have no theory. I have the games events that actually took place. I am just describing them. If you want to pretend that is how the game goes. Then do so.
I only say that you already on the first cd crazy things happen like the monster on the radio tower and the time travel in the train. but I must say is a nice theory and makes my favorite game even more interesting :)
Zabusy01 I don't think squall died. Tetsuya Nomura once said that after making FF7 (which got a heavy story) they wanted to go with something simple and more relaxing for FF8, so they choose school and student as a theme. If the theory of squall died is right, then the story wouldn't be simple or relaxing anymore.
Johan Yu Still FF8 din't have simple and relaxing story if comparing to FF9, the story is pretty dark, did you read the history of Centra Ruins in FF8? Plus Nomura din't involved that much of FF8 so i think they should ask the director Kitase and writer Kazushige Nojima for more correct informations.
Wise. Tell me I'm not thinking whilst completely avoiding the point I made! Quistis was an instructor for 3 years when the story begins.Squall and Seifer always fought, she was the one that usually broke it up. Whilst Quistis was soft as an instructor and he wasn't keen on her, Seifer had known her a long time, and her status as a SeeD and instructor. So to answer you question as to "who and who not to talk too" - why not use logic and ask the EXPERIENCED over the newbie? Hurrdurr?
One quick question... When since magic wound people. If you look back on previous installments the only way you could bleed was by means of weapons not magic. Also the ice shard hit his shoulder (if you look at a good angle you'll see how visible it is).. It's possible that squall was hit on a pressure point which caused him to go unconscious for awhile Anyways imo the reason why it's not brought up again is the fact that squall doesn't like to be reminded of his failures (that's pretty human if you ask me) With his relationship with Rinoa.. Rinoa did hate his guts XD but at the same time had to rely on him bcuz of his leadership qualities (I don't see no one complaining when quistis and Rinoa are best buddies after disc 1). Rinoa overtime started to like squall as a person and kept helping him open up more Remember Seifer not only disrupted the television broadcast but also he became a knight for the sorceress ( by mind manipulation.. poor guy.. ofc he'll be seen as major threat this is just my opinion on this theory I hope I made sense :)
I actually can believe that. Yeah sure characters can use Cure and Phoenix Down but that doesnt mean a character cannot die. Hell Auron from 10 was already dead.
It's not that Squall *couldn't* have died; it's that all the "reasons" people have given for subscribing to this theory fail. For example, they try to say that Esthar, NORG, and the Lunar Cry are figments of Squall's imagination... but these things are referenced on the first disc!
This theory has so many holes in it I find it hard to take seriously. 1. If Squall is dead from disk 2 on, then what the hell is the point of the Laguna dreams in disc one? 2. You go to school to learn how to be a mercenary and kill a summon spirit/GF within the first ten minutes of the game and I'm supposed to believe that this game isn't capable of going total Planet Vulcan exploding by rabbit rage levels of illogical? 3. what about the big angry spider robot? There is no indication anywhere that any group has the technology to build something like that until you get to later discs. What purpose does it serve if death is part of the grand plot? 4. Yeah...the situation with Adel is foreshadowed heavily in disc one if you look for it in the radio tower. While you could make the case that Squall is making the story of Adel up in his delusion, it makes absolutely no sense to the plot in this case to have it there especially if death is the narrative. . 5. Seifer's an insufferable asshole from the opening cinematic. When you fight Seifer right before the first fight with Edea, Seifer's pretty high up on the badguy-o-meter. It's not hard to imagine Seifer getting caught up in a delusion suggested by Ultimecia-as-Edea, and going full crazy badguy from that point on. This is especially true as you remember that Edea herself was the matron mother of the orphanage that most of the cast grew up in. There's no way, faded memories or no, that you can completely remove the mother figure from your subconscious. Even Squall doesn't entirely lose it. 5.5 This part of the theory also ignores the common Shonen rivalry trope that the Japanese audience loves to absolute death and is included in practically every medium. 6. A dislocated/torn shoulder does not a death make. There are no vital organs where he is hit. 7. The focus on Disc 1 events in the acid-trip sequence near the end credits can easily be credited to that being where most of the establishing memories coming from. And yet you still see scenes from other discs. 8. The faceless Squall moment is about the only part of this theory that has any plausibility, but only if you count a Western interpretation of it. A faceless individual is seen as someone who has no identity or sense of self. The theorists seem to see this as Squall losing his ability to differentiate memory from fantasy as his mind finally shuts down. However it can also be interpreted as him being unable to remember himself as they explained earlier when time compression unravels. Remember that Squall is a loner by nature and he doesn't like relying on others. Rinoa broke that, hence his attempt to focus on her. Unable to remember her, he is unable to remember himself, as he has no other anchors. It's an admittedly creepy image, but far from the most creepy JRPG games have produced (Giygas says hi). 9. If the end sequence is supposed to be "His" heaven, then what the hell is Edea doing there? Or Seifer for that matter? And why show Squall offscreen from the camera shots? 10. The little red animals aren't any different from Moogles in relation to previous installments. And they're pretty odd for a delusional figment of someone's imagination. If that were the case, why then are they not more prominent throughout the story? 11. The writers and producers say they wanted to write a romance, not a total mindfuck. Theorists invented the mindfuck. Ultimately this is just a modern-day ghost story told for no other reason than creepy factor. It has very, very little to base it on.
This theory would also explain the fact that the summons take away memories, which was never mentioned anywhere before, and if they did cause that it'd be explained or at least mentioned.
Does the ending fit with the theorum? I watched the ending and while it is symbolic that Squall walks a desert until he dies...and is found by Riona to be dead (she holds him he doesnt wake up), the rest of the ending seems to be rounding up all the friends for a reunion on a big ship that then is filmed as if in a home movie... With what happens after the battery dies saved for after the credits. This suggests an ordinary story line. If it was extraordinary such as Squall is dead...how do we explain everything after Squall's actual death in Riona's arms? Is the rest all...Heaven? Do they all meet again in some afterlife as friends like they were in the orphanage? Any ideas?
Not only that, but it would stand to reason that he was alive even if the game *didn't* show him. For two reasons: 1. While Rinoa is still holding Squall in the scene where the clouds roll away and they're in the field of flowers, she looks down at Squall and is obviously surprised at something. She'd have no other reason to look at him that way, other than him regaining consciousness. 2. If Rinoa were truly out there by herself on the balcony, it would clash with the way Selphie reacts to seeing this! Selphie is obviously very happy to see whatever's going on out there. That makes it much more likely to be Squall and Rinoa together, than Rinoa being out there alone, talking to herself...
What you see at the end of disc one is edea's limit break where she conjures up a bolt of ice and throws it at her enemy. This was caused by squall himself putting edea in a weakened state. It is magical damage and would be strong enough to put squall in a weakened/unconscious state but not kill him. As for there being no wound in the world of FF8 magic does not appear to inflict physical harm it just inflicts pain. The opening scene is very important which seperates physical/magical damage by the way seifers fire spell hurts squall but inflicts no real damage whereas getting hit by seifers sword gives squall that glorious scar we all know and love. I like the idea of this theory it is indeed interesting but if you really know this game and the world its set in squall surviving edea's attack is perfectly logical. Lets face it he took alot of magic damage all the way through disc one right up to that point as most enemies use magic lol
Thank you! Yes, this is what I've been saying all along, among other things. The arguments in favor of the theory in general aren't very well thought out. For example, *does* the game get more fantastical after disc one? I'm not so sure. Because we may see talking moombas on disc 2, but we can see talking mummified ghosts, shadows, and monkeys on the first disc! Not to mention the odds of three people having the exact same dream at the exact same time (twice!) are practically zero.
This theory is so unfounded that when I posted on the SquallisDead website and refuted it with hard facts about the game itself, they threw a fit and banned me, lol.
+Vic 2.0 Except that's not what you did lol. You flamed anyone that may have agreed with the theory, then got salty and posted in the comment section of this video LOL
Drari Discussing is not flaming just because people don't want to hear what you have to say :) And yes, I refuted the theory from several different angles, mostly pointing out how all of the arguments in favor of it are flawed.
Drari For example, proponents of the theory try to claim that Disc 1 is closer to being realistic than Discs 2-4 so (in their heads) it means that Squall is dead and dreaming. But talking mummified ghosts, talking shadows, and talking monkeys are far more fantastic than talking moombas. Likewise, the fact that three different people have the same exact "dream" at the same exact time (TWICE!) is far more unlikely than the vast majority of what takes place in the later discs. People also try and claim that Rinoa suddenly fell in love with Squall in Disc 2 without ample reason, ignoring that he had just saved her life at the parade and that Seifer (one of the guys she had feelings for) was sitting there cheering along while a sorceress tried to kill her. It would be far more unrealistic if she *didn't* make up her mind right then and there to follow Squall! Face it, the theory's unfounded. And people who insist that it's true do cowardly things like ban people who refute it.
Hey Vic, could you send me PM with your e-mail so I can talk to you about this theory and FF8's general direction in their writing? I've been researching for a while about why this story is the way it is (mildly confusing and, in the final parts, terrifying); I've seen you in the official SquallIsDead website (banned for, IMO, idiotic reasons) and in a couple of other videos, so maybe you could shed some light on the matter. The reasons for me wanting to talk about this are various, one of them being to possibly write a full essay on the matter that is fully compatible with Final Fantasy 8's plot (without all these "R=U" and "Squall is Dead" theories). Thanks in advance!
A website creates a theory about Squall being dead, and forgets that the game is, first of all, a fucking FANTASY game, if it was meant to be realistic the whole time, the name would be Final Reality, and not Final Fantasy. Also does not consider the own game's story, which clearly talks about sorcery since the fucking beginning, and time comprehension from certain part. Forgets about portions, phoenix down, magic, junction and summons, a guy that can use a gun which is able act as a sword, or a sword that is a gun, whatever, and can shoot (Kinda realistic, hun? Bet you marines have some of those...). If there are "weird" stuff from disc 2 on, it means they didn't want to just give the best things away in the beginning, that's called marketing. Square wouldn't just leave things in the air to upset its fans. Proof of that is that it's clearly stated in FFX that Tidus is dead, and he's back to life in FFX-2. So, people, just enjoy your games, everything outside the box (Outside the creators story) is just as fake as a si-fi story.
Squall Leonhart Time Compression* And it's not mentioned from the start, I can remember the exact moment it's first mentioned because it was so out of the blue. Start of disc 3 when the party talk to Edea. Also, I only meant it was more realistic than normal, meaning the character models were realistic, not like super deformed anime characters and they were in a school next to a normal town. Then the plot just goes wild all of a sudden, more-so than the other games. Usually the games are pretty consistent in their tone. Also, Tidus wasn't confirmed "Dead", more like confirmed "Was Never Alive". He was essentially an aeon, which the Fayth re-summoned in X-2. EDIT: Creating fan theories and discussing different possible ways the story could be interpreted IS enjoying the game, and I'm sure the creators would be flattered that people are still talking about it 16 years on.
Squall Leonhart I think the more lucent point in this video is that theories like this come about from terrible writing. Final Fantasy VIII was easily one of the worst Final Fantasy games ever made. If they had put an ounce of thought or care into the crafting of the story, theories like this wouldn't have any point of purchase. Unfortunately, this trash game was so full of inept writing and plot holes that any number of theories could be considered, if only to splint the deformed and badly mangled appendages of this aborted game.
Squall Leonhart I hate the idea of it...but I am almost convinced it is true...Squall is killed by Edea in disc one, just as a certain someone was killed(or paralyzed according to game theory which don't worry I don't believe)in 7. When I first visited the website I was completely against it but then I thought of the timing it started to make sense. How do you top killing Aerith? I think they killed the main character of the game in 8 and since we play as the main character we experience his dying thoughts as he tragically clings to life. I believe squaresoft intentionally left it up to interpretation because it is far too dark and deep of a concept for what basically amounts to a children's game so the openly say it and then quickly gloss over it as if nothing happened. Normal magic and items are meant for battle related injuries so the element of sorcery provides a perfect cover for what I believe is the greatest testament to their genius. I feel that squaresoft knew they could not take it as far as they wanted if everyone knew what was happening in the final scene so they left the story up to the gamer to decide so can we please stop the criticism one another over fictional characters.
May I point out that Squall was impaled by an icicle in the right side. If Edea (being controlled by Ultimecia) was trying to kill him she would had impaled him to his heart but there lies the question. What was going on inside the mind of Edea? What if for a short moment Edea recognized Squall after the battle and made the Icicle to not kill him. This would suggest that Ultimecia lost control for only a short time after the battle and when she was ready to kill Squall, Edea came to and aimed for his right side and not his heart. And the "no wound" Squall must had that icicle taken out and was patched up.
One of the only ppl that has sense. Ppl legit ignore the fact he got hit in the shoulder area. Yes that wound is severe but in no way, shape, or form is it a 1 hit KO
Maybe Rinoa is really Ultimecia. Now I have this theory about it. When Squall dies at the hand of Edea at Disc 1, we see Rinoa going for him and calling him. And because of much grieving about Squall's death. Rinoa creates another persona which is Ultimecia, and she absorbs Squall's GF (which is Griever) and got the power of compress of time. And then Ultimecia goes to the past where she can undo the death of Squall, and then disc 2 happens. But the thing about this theory is, Ultimecia didn't actually go the past, but in another parallel dimension where, Squall still lives. And so she finds her another self. So there is two Rinoa on that dimension. And that is where the disc 2 starts. This theory I've have formed is based on all the theory that I've review regarding FF8. Now as you can see, in disc 2, it's like all the fortress, castles are floating in the air. That's because this is in another parallel dimension, which is, in the world where Ultimecia came from, they got no flying things like that. So that confirms that Ultimecia didn't go the past but in another dimension. That also confirms that Squall's GF which is Griever is within Ultimecia all along, because she already absorbs it when Squall's died on her world. Now, Ultimecia thinks that she is in the past, and is jealous of the other Rinoa because supposedly she should be the one who's with Squall. So she try to destroy there relationship. But in the end, got defeated. Now when Squall's kill Ultimecia, memory of the other Squall overlaps his. (Because Griever) And the end where Ultimecia says "Reflect on your childhood" she means that see through the memory of the other Squall. And that's why his seeing the memory of it, seeing Rinoa from the other dimension is actually Ultimecia.
Except that the game identifies Ultimecia as a sorceress "many generations" ahead of their time, and the Ultimania has already confirmed that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. All of this reduces the theory to fan fiction. Sure, it can be *possible* if you add in a bunch of stuff, but what "theory" *can't* be made possible that way? For example, the X-ATM mechanical spider is really Zell from the future. He started with the face tattoo, so that's evidence that he likes to alter his body in weird and permanent ways, right? So that confirms the theory, right!?
@midshot I can't quite be as in depth with my video, due to length and whatnot. I just tried to outline the basic theory and left the comments section open for viewers to fill in the gaps themselves. It's what makes a community ;)
+Matt Vinci I think you just assume there aren't good answers for everything you're curious about in the game, because you really want this theory to sound plausible. "Here we are, on disc 2, at Zell's "mom"'s house. In Zell's bedroom, which the party was not previously allowed to enter." So because Zell finally lets Squall and the others see his room, Squall must be dreaming it? Seriously? Squall is able to encounter a demon in a lamp, talking mummified ghosts, talking monkeys, talking *shadows* and experience the same dream as two of his peers at the same exact time (twice!). But you think getting to see Zell's room is the fantastic item we should fixate on. Wow. "Also, how about when Squall, and Rinoa are floating out in space, and Squall goes UGHH WERE GONNA DIE OUT IN SPACE, THINK! n then out of nowhere, a moon appears that has the Ragnarok floating around it." While this is certainly what they call in literature a deus ex machina, there's absolutely no evidence to support thinking that Squall is in control of it. If he were, then Rinoa wouldn't have ever been separated from him in the first place. "Hmm, n then the whole weird conversation between Rinoa, and Squall in the Ragnarok." Do you have a specific statement you think lends credence to the theory? Like I said, everything has a good enough answer; we don't have to make up fan fiction and then pass it off as serious theories to explain the parts of the canon we don't understand.
To be fair all the characters in every FF ever take insane punishment and don't seem to mind to much. Sephiroths supernova anyone? How many times do you have to destroy the same solar system to kill Cloud?
Even if he survived that whole ice attack, its possible that he could have been killed at the end. He clearly passes out and Rinoa cries over his body. Then, as you watch the ending where Irvine is recording people, he panels the camera to Rinoa out on the balcony and she does that pointing thing with her finger and no one is standing next to her, then the scene switches over to her point of view and she sees Squall. Possibly showing that she is seeing the ghost of Squall.
The best part about this theory, is it makes sense. And, during that particular scene... I did walk away from the game saying. "Whelp, that was fun, just finnished disk one and the main character died."
I thought about it but being honest, it makes pretty simple sense afterwards that Edea healed him because she needed information from the current SeeD's about their "secrets". As Squall was the one who led the SeeD charge against Edea she could simply used her powers. Mind you that the power of the sorceress was never properly given limits and it is strong enough to meld all reality into one single time compressed universe, who are we to say she can't heal him. I go with simple plot deduction.
I didn't expect Raijin to be so strong either. The Game Over screen doesn't make me go "Oh well, that's one possible ending! I've finished the game! Time to play Dino Crisis now!"
My explanation for the "no wound" was always that, since Edea is actually Matron, Squalls loving mother-type figure, that something in her subconscious "pulled the punch" so to speak on her attack so that it looks like he's impaled, and it knocks him out, but isn't actually a puncture wound at all. Still, kind of fun to think about.
Well we already know that magic attacks do not draw blood or do permanent damage from watching the intro, when Seifer hits Squall with fire and it doesn't do half what the sword (physical attack) did to Squall's face. But ultimately, we can't just ignore or argue with the discs that follow without good reason, and no one's ever been able to come up with a truly good reason to question everything we see on discs 2-4.
Just played the game and while I find this theory interesting it doesn't make much sense because then how exactly would you explain the dream sequence with laguna's party before this, after all people don't just get unconscious on the spot and have the same dream
If we theorize that Squall died, we can also theorize that Cloud died. Cloud remembered that Tifa stayed unconscious for 7 days after her ordeal as a teenager at Nibelheim. She also apparently stayed unconscious for 7 days after the ordeal at the North Crater. This is all in-game canon. Cloud could have been imagining the entire events after disc 2 while dead in the lifestream. What other beloved FF game endings could have been dreams?
Actually, several times in Advent Children Complete. And he still manages to do the omnislash version 6 completely ignoring the fact that he's might die soon if he doesn't do something.
I think its like FF7, in FF7 was realistic in the very beginning, and became rare when we discovered RED XIII aka Nanaki, which is the son of the great guardian (i forgot his name) and gets more and more "fantasy" when the weapons are awakened thanks to Sephiroth. Its the same thing, and Cloud could be "dead" since that incident but he survive and we see as Tifa perspective later, so, it could be the same
is almost like every FF is about a fantasy when a main character dies at some point of a story. I mean look at FF10. are main character has flat out been told his a "dream" near the end of the game. meaning his been dead for 1000 years. he is actually a spirit that became physical to see, hear and feel.
There's a big flaw at the beginning of the SquallsDead theory; it says why would Edea heal Squall if she wanted to know about SeeD, why not someone more experienced? When Edea killed Squall, she felt something, hence the closeup of Edeas eyes (Edea realized Squall was one of her "children" from the orphanage) starting from then on, there was a struggle between Edea and Ultemecia for control. Edea wanted to know why she felt something when she shot Squall thats why she brought Squall back to life
This is a FINAL FANTASY game, Yuna, Paine and Rikku jumped down a massive hole to reach the farplane and didn't even twist an ankle, Blitzball players hold their breath under water for long periods of time, magic is used, a little girl named Realm DRAWS PICTURES of monsters and uses it against them, the list goes on and on with what happens in Final Fantasy games, ANYTHING can happen. So yes he could of died but he did not...
Squall was hit by ice spear on the right side of his chest. A human heart is located more to the left side of the chest. As long as ice spear didn't strike any vital organs, it would be very possible to survive.
Exactly. I mentioned in another comment a while ago that the only large blood vessel in the shoulder area is the Axillary Artery, which wasn't injured by the spear, I can prove: the spear pierced through Squall right below it, I'd say about 3 or 4 inches below the area where that Artery is located in the body (his body to be more specific). So, it's no surprise at all he survived. :)
I love it. Perhaps Squall WAS dead, perhaps not. But wouldn't it be great if that was yet another hidden plot that the player could discern? Also, "Squall's Final Fantasy" is an awesome way to interpret the continuation, assuming he was killed. And I wonder... it all makes sense? Could I really have missed that after more than ten years?
@koalalauncher Actually, I should point out that I don't think Rinoa even mentions Seifer once after the events of Disc 1. When Seifer is down at the end of Disc 2, she doesn't kiss him. When you see the scene later when Ellone sends you back, you see that Rinoa is posessed by Ultimecia and she is whispering orders to him, about bringing up the Lunatic Pandora etc.
Fun fact. Some of Squall's characteristics is based on the 80's heart rob actor River Phoenix who is dead 6 years before FF8. Seifer on the other hand is based on actor Keifer Sutherland. Can you see the pattern? Try watching the movie Stand by Me and you'll see excerpt scenarios of FF8. The first time I knew the Squall is dead theory, it sure haunted me as a fan.
I know the theory you're talking about. It's slightly inaccurate, though. There are no air bubbles when Aerith is going under water, and recently killed bodies can still sink. Gas build up from decomposition begins almost immediately, and if Cloud would have stuck around for awhile he would have seen Aerith's body on the surface.
It's not squall's dying mind, it's Rinoa's. Rinoa is crazy and the entire game is her mind snapping trying to change reality. That's the thing you missed about the game. She felt guilt for rejecting squall to a guy that ignored her and when squall died it made her live a crazy "fantasy" from the trauma for the rest of her life until she died in that space accident where here helmet was smashed. That's why she can "see" squall in the ending, but a camera cannot. Rinoa is a nutcase.
(I'm done after this) And possibly the reason why Rinoa quit acknowledging Seifer as the one she "loved" was probably because she accepted the fact that Seifer was brainwashed by the sorceress and that if meant killing him, it would have to be done and she knew Squall and everyone else needed her the most. She saw that Squall was really a good guy when he always came back for her. In conclusion, the Squall is Dead theory isn't anymore real than the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory.
You forgot the biggest point in your ending. Not only was life "flashing before his eyes"...when Rinoa finds squall, he's seemingly dead. She cries. And then the clouds pull back, flowery fields...he wakes up
not sure about theories but i do know about psychology, and the way squall was presented when wondering about the wound clearly shows that it WAS supposed to leave a big hole on his chest. Although if you look closely it pierced him near the right shoulder, just below the clavicle, it could easily have missed the lungs, and in irl you could have survived that, just some haemostatic and bandages, i dont think he'd have lost enough blood as to die from that. (but the hole is a fact)
No, no. I don't back it, but the theory basically suggests that as soon as Squall's hit with the ice spear and he starts dying, everything from disc 2 onwards just flashes through his mind. An inner attempt to answer the questions he had in disc one, and to resolve any regrets he had, he fabricated the entire thing as a "life flashes before your eyes" montage. It just says Disc 2 onwards never happened.
Don't forget who was next as the sorceress. It was Rinoa. It couldn't be his death dream, but the final scene of course proves otherwise. But again let's reconsider what Squall did before. He killed Ultimecia, the empress of time. It's possible that his visions were blurried because of the flow of said time.
what i say is, if cloud survived a stab from sephiroth's sword which looked extremely painful and mortally wounded was still able to survive (its confusing but I think it was Zack) but survived anyway
you know i got a theory about the no wound thing, maybe just maybe unlike Cloud and gang. Someone remembered to use a healing spell or potion on him? cause its clearly displayed that they freely use magic.
The wound wasn't deadly. Edea is obviously caring towards squall because even though we don't know it who she is in the plot, she does. She's a sorceress who healed him. That's what I always felt. Cool theory..
This is my theory also at this point in the game edea was fully possessed by Ultimecia so she had no way of knowing what SeeD really was so she healed squall to interrogate him, and let the others live as back ups. What I don't understand is why Irvine wasn't put in the prison.
The Squall is Dead theory remains unfounded. Every argument in favor of it's been laid to rest. I know this because I'm one of the ones who refuted them.
no, you can even survive those. whats really fatal is plot, you could take down Cthulu and all his friends without breaking a sweat but if the story says that jerry from down the street is supposed to kill you then he could do it with a plastic spoon and no amount of phionix down will save you
The parade was a "battle", plus notice the lack of blood? They did it as such for a dramatic effect. Also Laguna never was with raine when she died. Laguna stayed in that city as president and couldn't leave really. Ellone was with her and she and squall were taken to the orphanage. Ellone then left leaving squall alone. (which explains his antisocial behavior)
Actually the only real problem with this theory is that it's perfectly acceptable for squall to have survived the ice to the chest. If you watch the very end of that clip, the ice is on the right side of his chest. No major organs or anything.
@Patricia34276 Nah, Irvine joins the party shortly before going to Deling City. He's the sniper they use to try and assassinate Edea to begin with. But thank you for the compliment :)
ice helps stop the bleeding though, and if you know anatomy then you know that being hit in vital organs would cause death, otherwise it would be just extremely painful and may cause a shock or paralysis if the spine is damaged. That is explained in the Aerith's death theory. And even Cloud was stabed by Sepiroth's sword and he is still alive, and not once but TWICE!
I believe that Sqaull is stuck in a time loop. Witch would explain why he is back at the Ball/Dance with Rinoa at the very end of the game (after the credits).
i would agree ...but remember the cost of using the GF is memory loss and squall says " i will gladly give it up" forgot the full convo but he pretty\ much says that
Respond to this video... if i had to pick a side i would go with it because, it would also explane the end when squall is in the middle of no where and falls to the ground, to only be found by renoa, and when she hugs him the desert turns into a field.
The weird thing Ultimecia Says I'm quite certain that's a say for us the players, just think about it... No matter how much you try to hold on the time always keep running. And about the look a like of Rinoa & Ultimecia I'm 100% Sure the reason of that is to show "No matter Who or What your are, The choices you make determine how your life turns out!" Rinoa & Ultimecia are the same: Witches but Rinoa Decided to Keep peace while Ultimecia decided to be the ultimate life being.
![Final Fantasy Theories - Rinoa is Ultimecia [Follow-up]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Inx1g4uyoKQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The impalement scene only bothered me because in my playthrough, squall still had reflect on when this fight ended.
Jack Ream Well, reflect can't block overdrives :^)
+Jack Ream lol omg.. made my night after reading this.
It was a finishing move desperation move and not a "magic" attack but yeah I know what you mean.
Another interesting thing is that when Squall has his "Flashbacks" all ALL the memories are based on disc 1, none of them are of disc 2,3 or 4
DoratrosWoW really? cause i saw a flash of rinoa in space and a glimpse of ragnarok. that's not in disc one :v
As Kris Irmansyah pointed out, there are scenes in Squall's flashbacks that were after disc one. This is just one of many bits of "evidence" for the unfounded Squall is Dead theory that don't work.
he probably already died in his fight against cifer ..It was all just a dream
Squall, Aeris and Zack are in Kingdom hearts games
what if the KH universe is actually part of a dream where everyone who died is there.
except for Cloud, you cannot bring up FF without Cloud
+Zip Plays but yuffie is too there, Cifer,
on my first playthrough, squall died while fighting ifrit. so you could say he didnt really recover, the game i played from then on was actually all on squalls head as he lay dying on the fire caverns floor.
LMAO
zetaro05 you just don't just post you died on the tutorial.... XD. regardless the point, you just don't do it.
That sounds every bit as rational as the Squall is Dead theory (which is to say, not at all).
+Matt Vinci I think you just assume there aren't good answers for everything you're curious about in the game, because you really want this theory to sound plausible.
"Here we are, on disc 2, at Zell's "mom"'s house. In Zell's bedroom, which the party was not previously allowed to enter."
So because Zell finally lets Squall and the others see his room, Squall must be dreaming it? Seriously? Squall is able to encounter a demon in a lamp, talking mummified ghosts, talking monkeys, talking *shadows* and experience the same dream as two of his peers at the same exact time (twice!). But you think getting to see Zell's room is the fantastic item we should fixate on. Wow.
"Also, how about when Squall, and Rinoa are floating out in space, and Squall goes UGHH WERE GONNA DIE OUT IN SPACE, THINK! n then out of nowhere, a moon appears that has the Ragnarok floating around it."
While this is certainly what they call in literature a deus ex machina, there's absolutely no evidence to support thinking that Squall is in control of it. If he were, then Rinoa wouldn't have ever been separated from him in the first place.
"Hmm, n then the whole weird conversation between Rinoa, and Squall in the Ragnarok."
Do you have a specific statement you think lends credence to the theory? Like I said, everything has a good enough answer; we don't have to make up fan fiction and then pass it off as serious theories to explain the parts of the canon we don't understand.
Lmao this comment is Gold!
Strangely, I've never thought of it that way. Despite beating the game tons of times, I never noticed a 'change' from it being realistic to being crazy/messed up.
It's an interesting, and quite possible, theory.
They healed the wound to keep squall alive so they could interrogate him about the "meaning of SeeD". Edea didn't want him dead yet.
Give this man a medal!
***** how bout 2
Benjamin Smith That doesn't make sense since he was just a rookie and didnt have any information to share thatd be useful.
So...Why interrogate him at all, then? The way the characters behave in the torture scene, seems to suggest they think he does know something. About the 'true meaning of SeeD', to be exact. It's all right there, as far as motives are concerned. Doesn't mean they're right to assume he does, but they also seem a little too stupid to realize it. Hence the torture.
They had more than enough reason to think Squall would know about the meaning of SeeD. As Seifer himself says *in the game,* the assumption is that the meaning of SeeD is given when someone *becomes* a SeeD (which sounds perfectly rational to think). Moreover, he was leader of the group that attacked Edea; they probably figured he was given some sort of reason why she was to be attacked.
Fact once you beat Final Fantasy VIII and watch through the credits a secret video clip shows everyone at a party, finally it goes to Rinoa alone on a balcony looking up into the night sky then she turns and smiles at, you guessed it, Squall.
Now whether Squall died after the battle against Ultimecia and Rinoa being a sorceress called him back, or instead she simply believed in their promise together and through their love, it brought him back, or whether he wasn't dead yet and Rinoa healed him with her powers, any way you look at it, Squall is alive with Rinoa at that final secret scene. So our Stone Faced hero survives the war and proves love conquers all. Squall is a die hard if you hadn't noticed.
Squall´s final fantasy
A phoenix down is for a K.O. If it brought people back to life, Laguna would probably still have his wife.
squall is hit my magical element which is we could say that they can heal the wound or use phoenix down, as for natural death things is irreversable.
Final Fantasy VIII suddenly makes PERFECT sense! Thanks a lot!
3:50 is when Squall and Rinoa got stuck somewhere beyond time and space. Squall then choose a static timeline, as a place to come together and meet. This is because he kept jumping from one timeline to another like crazy, that is when things got 'fuzzy'. The whole thing feels erratic. He then decided, 'I will pick this one', and managed to stay firm…
Note at one point during development, Squall and Rinoa were meant to be revealed as Brother and Sibling. In another point, Edea as Rinoa from the future, and she kept waiting for Squall ala "Somewhere in Time".
This is why when Selphie used her video camera at the ending, the person Rinoa talked to is not seen. That is because it was not meant to be Squall…
Chaos Assisted Story Telling (CAST)
#SecretSpaceProgram #disclosure
I teared up when you mentioned that he couldn't remember her face. This game has SUCH a deep meaning! I have LOVED it since I was a kid... and the Squall is Dead theory adds all new depth to an already perfect story. Excellent video :)
Well I mean it didn't stab his heart so it is possible he could have survived.
This video reminded me how good the soundtrack for this game was!
this is what makes this game so much darker and the story so much more powerful, love this game
Not to mention Squall gets iced under the Arc de Triomphe, where the 'unknwon' soldier's grave is locate
It has been a while since I last played the game so I do not remember every detail.
This might just be one of the most popular FF theories. But this theory is utter bullshit if you ask me. Those who support this theory just do not understand the story, the events and the world. (No offense if someone supports it)
One of the biggest things people say considering this theory is that Squall was impaled. Well that Ice Spike sure hit him, but it mostly in his shoulder or side. I think he probably broke rib or two but I doubt that strike impaled any major organs.
That "No wound" thing. So what, he is healed.
About that "going crazy". Ultimecia's presence, Magic, Illusions. Pretty basic Fantasy stuff.
I think gaming world is richer with many different theories and Final Fantasy games are not the most simplest games. But this theory has nothing adamant. I have played this game after I first heard this theory and I really think that the theory is pretty rickety. There is explanations.
They explain later on that Moombas (the things that look like Red XIII) are able to heal by licking wounds.
Rinoa casts Life on Squall = This theory is dead
Deonte Browne Bravo.
Deonte Browne Not that I'm agreeing with this theory, but Life doesn't bring you back from the dead, whether it be due to impalement or not.
PeyserConley X I'm alive, dude.
PeyserConley X dude pause it when he got hit it was the side or arm
MasterRedFTW Totally agree, because I was there to see it. :x)
@JayBarrington It's the last thing Ultimecia says to the party as she is dying. No one can really understand why she said it, but if you put it in the context of this theory then it makes perfect sense.
Squall is dying and his mind is fighting to retain the memories of his childhood, everything he's felt, everything' he's said, etc, but she is telling him that time will not wait for him. He is dying and no matter how hard he holds on, every memory will escape him.
The whole basis of this theory is really interesting and I might use an adaption of it for a story I'm writing.
I actualy love this idea, and it actually makes sense considering the weird shift the game takes in disc two, and indeed works with the theory Irving puts forward about GFs taking your memory.
This gave me goose bumps...
I like how this theory actually makes Squall kind of likable.
The theory is unfounded, but Squall has always been one of the best characters in the FF series. C'mon now.
I got chills when he mentioned the title. That makes the ending and the whole game make sense. The part about emotions and stuff fleeting at the end proves it. It makes complete sense.
1. "No wound" could easily mean someone healed him, but he doesn't know who or when, or that the ice shard (which did seem to hit more to the side than in the heart) didn't cause that *kind* of wound. Maybe it was just to put him out for a while, it doesn't say.
2. No, things are not very realistic before Disc 2. Iguana statues coming to life? Minotaurs and mummified ghosts? Zombie presidents?
3. I don't see how an evil "witch" launching missiles is unrealistic.
4. The Gardens flying and floating is weird, sure, but they had already shown hoverboards so we know the *technology* was there. And it's not like we hadn't seen weirder in previous games - floating *continents,* for example.
5. Bikers jumping into the Garden isn't unrealistic weird, just dangerous and likely at least a few wouldn't make it. Iguana statues coming to life beats all of this!
6. We have to remember that things get insanely weirder out of nowhere in a *lot* of FF games. In FF12, you go from just people being your enemies in a very realistic sort of war, to doing the bidding of godlike creatures that look hella weird. In FF6, there are these statues that pop up out of nowhere and moving them changes the entire planet's structure! Compared to this kind of stuff, FF8 is still somewhat realistic actually even to the end!
7. Every time someone tries to sell me on this theory, they imply or flat-out say that Rinoa didn't like Squall until after he "died". This is not the case! And I feel quite insane being the only one who remembers her shamelessly throwing herself at Squall when they first meet! I chalk all of that back and forth stuff to just her being a teenage girl. They're like that quite often- don't know what they want. Why construct an elaborate theory such as this when "Teenagers!" will do?
8. Squall's promotions didn't just start being sudden after disc 1. He was made the leader of every group he was in very quickly after just completing his first SeeD mission. Clearly, they saw something in him that made him qualified to take on increasingly large projects at a rapid rate (I.e., you don't ordinarily send a guy who's only led in one mission to assassinate such a world-renowned figure as the sorceress!)
9. I took Ultimecia's words to be telling her opponents that they should just give up and let her win because it's all going to end anyway. That stopping her wouldn't matter, that kind of thing. And even if I were to entertain the idea that she's talking directly to Squall about his life, why did she/it say anything at all? Why didn't it just end? It makes more sense, to me, as a villain's final temptation than some sort of "Welcome to the end" for Squall.
10. The part with Squall not being able to focus on Rinoa's face was actually already foreshadowed, with the instructions given to them all before they went to the future. They were told to remember each other, and that would bring them back.
shintaiden How do you figure? What part do you think is "so wrong", and why?
Vic 2.0 Some people just say things like that with nothing to back it up, cuz in their heads, saying someone is wrong, is good enough. Just let it shatter on impact, its a hollow stone. There is a lot of logic to what you said.
Mike Wa I suppose you're right.
shintaiden "He should have a scar or something from the attack."
No, actually. The intro shows how magical attacks differ from physical. Seifer hits Squall with fire to the face. No blood, no mark, no permanent damage. Edea hits Squall with an ice attack. No blood, no mark, no permanent damage. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
"Also, why the hell would they bother to heal him? To interrogate him? He's been a seed for like two weeks, why not interrogate the others who have been in seed longer."
She wasn't the one who decided to interrogate him first; Seifer was, because of their rivalry. Explained in game.
"Compared to disc one, the other discs are way more out there. Talking lions all over the place, flying gardens and all that other stuff is way more out there than fighting some monsters."
How bout talking monkeys? Talking shadows? Being pulled into an alternative dimension to essentially fight the devil? You can do all of that in Disc 1...
"face palm"
Worst counter argument ever.
Out of time, but I'll come back to these points later today. Just comment a little something to make sure I remember!
shintaiden Okay, let's demolish your illogical arguments here and now. I'll probably have to block you afterwards (because I don't think you're going to grow up and stop insulting people when you're proven wrong). But we'll see.
"4. You can't compare FF 8 to other ff games, they all have their own worlds and times."
BS. If it's okay for one Final Fantasy game, it's okay for the others.
"Floating a two foot hover board is different than floating an entire city."
How so? Can you explain to me how the magic keeping the Garden up would be insufficient in real life? (This oughta be good.)
"The floating garden, and freaking army base robot wrestling is too ridiculous for that world. It's too dream like."
Compared to *what,* in the FF8 universe? Seriously, it sounds like you're wanting to recreate the entire game, just so you can point at things that do not fit.
"5. Iguana statues has nothing on giant robot bases and talking lions all over the place, ffs."
Statues coming to life is *absolutely* more dreamlike than "giant robot bases", for the simple fact that at least the latter could conceivably happen, through science, but the former requires magic.
And talking "lions" (which are really not lions, BTW) have nothing on talking monkeys and talking shadows, which you can see on disc 1.
"6. No, key points of the plot like Seifer's defection, Squall's wound etc. are not explained."
In that an explanation is right there in front of you, yes they are. Seifer abandoned Garden because he was brainwashed by Edea; this much is very obvious. And Squall had no wound because he had been healed for interrogation. This is why when Seifer walked in, he wasn't the least bit surprised to find that Squall had been healed. You're just mad because the game didn't hold your hand the whole time and spell everything out for you.
"and don't refer to other ff games, different world, different rules."
Nonsense. All stories within a genre either require following certain rules, or they don't. You can't just pick and choose which FF should follow these rules and which ones shouldn't.
"Rinoa was far more into Seifer than she was Squall."
In the beginning, sure. But when Squall told her Seifer was still alive, after she thought he'd been executed? She gives a very weak response, compared to how she reacts when she finds out *Squall* is still alive a little later.
"Rinoa was happy to see Squall because he was a seed."
True enough that her leaping into his arms at that moment proves nothing (that's why I didn't use it), but seconds afterward...
Rinoa: "SeeD members dance quite well, don't they?"
Squall: "(It's so I can be a good SeeD agent.)"
Rinoa: "Ohhh... So it's work related. That's too bad..."
This indicates that she had been hoping they had a certain chemistry. Again, *pay attention* to the story if you're going to attempt to criticize it.
"Rinoa ditched him at the party for Seifer in an instant and admitted she still had strong feelings for him."
She never said "strong". And she only ditched Squall for Seifer because she was trying to contact Headmaster Cid, to work out an arrangement for the sake of the Forest Owls.
"Conveniently for Squall this goes away and everyone turns Seifer into your typical bad guy."
Are you trying to say he wasn't evil on Disc 1, but only on Disc 2, after he "died" and was dreaming? Because if you watch the cutscenes at the parade, you can see Seifer giving the camera some unmistakable "I'm evil" looks. That is, again, because he was being brainwashed by Edea.
"Again, it's way too convenient for Squall to be the one hope for seed and saving the world. almost overnight."
Squall wasn't the only hope, his friends fought beside him. But he was given authority at a rapid rate, partially because as the game showed us he was the most qualified, and partially because he was the only one Edea (and Cid, by extension) knew would be fighting the sorceress in the end.
"This is typical in ego centric dreams, fate is used as a vehicle to move the dream along. Again it's way too convenient."
FF8 is one of the few stories in which there is nothing "convenient" about it, as explained above.
"Then that is on you. It makes way more sense when you look at it from a perspective where Squall dies and his memory and dreams fade."
No, it does not. Because again, who says you get a nice clear message "You are about to die for real this time" before you finally go? That's making an assumption to support *another* assumption. Not at all logical, my friend.
"If what you say is true, than why would she say those lines about childhood? It's pretty clear that she is telling Squall to reflect upon his life because it is ending soon."
It is not "clear", if you have to interpret them, which we do. But the point is just that there are many possible interpretations. She could even be talking to *herself* for all we know, seeing as how she is about to die and she knows it.
"If that was the case, then why does he focus only on the events from disc one?"
He doesn't. Watch it again. Rinoa on the balcony of the flying Garden is from Disc 2, and Seifer handing her over to Adel is from Disc 3, as is her being out in space to begin with.
"Almost all of the images are of him dying, Rinoa screaming, and Squall without a damn face."
Simply Squall losing his mind. But answer me this one, if you think you can:
If Squall chooses to fight Diablos on Disc 2, after he supposedly "dies", the battle is the exact same as it would've been if he had fought him on Disc 1, *before* he "dies"... How is it that his imagination can create the battle with perfect accuracy? Even though he's never seen the battle before?
"A FUCKING MINI GLACIER PIERCES HIS CHEST, EVEN SQUALL IS AMAZED THAT THERE IS NO WOUND, SO WHAT YOU SAY ISN'T TRUE BY WHAT SQUALL SAYS."
It doesn't matter what Squall says, because he didn't even *see* the fact that there was no blood on the ice shard! All he knew was that it felt like he had been impaled by a physical object, same as he clearly felt like he had been burned by actual fire from Seifer's fire magic in the intro. You cannot explain why there is no blood, which is why you're dancing around this point in desperation.
"And yes it hits his chest, not his shoulder."
It depends on what angle you look at it from, and/or what frame you pause it on. But no matter *what* angle or frame you view, it clearly misses his heart. Let's not be denying that.
"Even if what you say is true about magic (which it isn't), he wouldn't have survived that giant fall."
It's *certifiably* true, proven *in the game,* and there was no "giant fall". He fell from the parade float, that's it. They only blurred out the ground because it would look stupid to watch him fall just a few feet.
"And yes, all the most fantastical elements in disc one PALE in comparison to the other discs. Creatures forming up on the moon,"
That's revealed in the first disc. The Information section of the Tutorial talks about the Lunar Cry.
"A witch launching missiles,"
Again, there is absolutely nothing fantastical about launching missiles; I have no idea why you keep insisting on this one!
"fighting robot bases, flying gardens, etc. etc."
Why are you counting this twice? In any case, it's nowhere near as fantastical as being pulled into an alternate dimension to do battle with the devil (aka Diablos).
"You either have to accept the fact that Squall dies, or you have to accept the fact that FF8 is a poorly written and inferior game."
You have to give me *reason* to think one or the other, actually. That's how it works.
"FF7 shits all over FF8."
7 was good, but nowhere near as good as 8. They shower you with mandatory and annoying mini-games every 10 steps, make you suffer through annoying characters like Yuffie and Cait Sith, and then end it with a boss battle that's just plain retarded from start to finish. Get serious for a second!
first after watching your video, it trigger me for me to think,
first squall actually didn't die, from the ice spear edea shoot, first edea shoot the ice spear, i think she still have the slight control of the Matron taking care of them, so she shoot at the right side avoiding the heart location and pierce through the lungs or stomach area, with magic and technology so high, i doubt he dies
and why no wound, i think edea heal him herself due the control and memory influence of the Matron, dont tell me you cant, as you can summon gfs and use so powerful magic, and the torture scen of squall is because seifer is in jealous mode
and the word ultimeica saying, is actually telling squall that if he kill her, the time will alter to the correct pace, and this will erase all of the current existence of all history
and the ending scene, as they defeat ultimeica, the time is reverted and create a time paradox, as they destroy the ultimeica's plan, which mean erasing ultimeica existence, which move back the timeline, that why you cans see squall traveling back to time to Matron ,and seeing the scene he should not be there, the scene fading away to total darkness showing their success in existing ultimeica, and this mean in the actual history squall's sister never disappear, their matron never gone, cid never create the school, which means that squall will never meet rinoa, which is proofed by the screen of rinoa distorting away, and the face with a black hole of squall is there is because, due to the history change, which will lead to a different future, and squall may not look like the current squall, which make the future squall looks unknowable to current him
And the ending rinoa finding squall, that part, i guess is rinoa using the remaining power the Ultimecia in her body to maintain that timeline, make it a future for them is possible, and not being disperse throughout time and all characters being destroy or fade away in the time paradox
NO one will read or even remember this. If you played Nanobreaker (A PS2 GAME) There's a part where your main character gets cut in half by the antagonist. Then he awakes and you realize you were a machine (KIND OF) Then you see that guy again and you tell him "You skipped my vitals organs didn't you?" **THING HERE IS THAT EVEN THO JAKE (THE MAIN CHARACTER FROM THE GAME) GOT SLICED AND HE SURVIVED...THERE WAS AN ACTUAL EXPLANATION.
A well thought out explanation, but possessing one flaw...
Irvine runs into battle with Rinoa to help you out. They were all there, and Irvine was one of the three witnessed to be attacking Edea head on by the entire populace of Deling City.
Oh god this bgm again.. Feels like I'm drunk again..
Interesting theory but its premise is based on a cop out to keep the game going. That little one liner "no wound" doesnt really lead anywhere. Its just a way of telling the player the character is back to 100% again and to forget that he was just impaled by an icicle.
As for Seipher going bad, he was always on the fence, both good and bad, Edea manipulated and controlled him to finally transition to the bad side.
As for things going crazy later on in the game, well... it is a Final Fantasy game after all lol. They tend to do that.
Another as for, the fleeting memory is caused by the Guardian Forces. Its explained in the game, its also the reason why none of your party remembers the orphanage. junctioning GF's cause loss of memories.
Cool theory, but I dont really see any evidence for it.
But you support your theories with just saying well you know it's final fantasy. Look it from different angle. What about the fucked up ending? No wound is pretty strange I mean most game at least have decency to explain what happened. The game was mostly realistic until disc 2. Lions are Squall symbol. Dude I know it's hard but squall died. Squall had his life in his last moments. It was his final fantasy.
Zabusy01 I have no theory. I have the games events that actually took place. I am just describing them.
If you want to pretend that is how the game goes. Then do so.
I only say that you already on the first cd crazy things happen like the monster on the radio tower and the time travel in the train. but I must say is a nice theory and makes my favorite game even more interesting :)
Zabusy01 I don't think squall died. Tetsuya Nomura once said that after making FF7 (which got a heavy story) they wanted to go with something simple and more relaxing for FF8, so they choose school and student as a theme. If the theory of squall died is right, then the story wouldn't be simple or relaxing anymore.
Johan Yu Still FF8 din't have simple and relaxing story if comparing to FF9, the story is pretty dark, did you read the history of Centra Ruins in FF8? Plus Nomura din't involved that much of FF8 so i think they should ask the director Kitase and writer Kazushige Nojima for more correct informations.
Wise. Tell me I'm not thinking whilst completely avoiding the point I made! Quistis was an instructor for 3 years when the story begins.Squall and Seifer always fought, she was the one that usually broke it up. Whilst Quistis was soft as an instructor and he wasn't keen on her, Seifer had known her a long time, and her status as a SeeD and instructor. So to answer you question as to "who and who not to talk too" - why not use logic and ask the EXPERIENCED over the newbie? Hurrdurr?
One quick question... When since magic wound people. If you look back on previous installments the only way you could bleed was by means of weapons not magic. Also the ice shard hit his shoulder (if you look at a good angle you'll see how visible it is).. It's possible that squall was hit on a pressure point which caused him to go unconscious for awhile
Anyways imo the reason why it's not brought up again is the fact that squall doesn't like to be reminded of his failures (that's pretty human if you ask me)
With his relationship with Rinoa.. Rinoa did hate his guts XD but at the same time had to rely on him bcuz of his leadership qualities (I don't see no one complaining when quistis and Rinoa are best buddies after disc 1). Rinoa overtime started to like squall as a person and kept helping him open up more
Remember Seifer not only disrupted the television broadcast but also he became a knight for the sorceress ( by mind manipulation.. poor guy.. ofc he'll be seen as major threat
this is just my opinion on this theory I hope I made sense :)
Also in ff6 figaro castle was very advanced to the point where it can tunnel across continents
I actually can believe that. Yeah sure characters can use Cure and Phoenix Down but that doesnt mean a character cannot die. Hell Auron from 10 was already dead.
SPOILER ALERT! lol jks... I already knew that!
It's not that Squall *couldn't* have died; it's that all the "reasons" people have given for subscribing to this theory fail. For example, they try to say that Esthar, NORG, and the Lunar Cry are figments of Squall's imagination... but these things are referenced on the first disc!
This theory has so many holes in it I find it hard to take seriously.
1. If Squall is dead from disk 2 on, then what the hell is the point of the Laguna dreams in disc one?
2. You go to school to learn how to be a mercenary and kill a summon spirit/GF within the first ten minutes of the game and I'm supposed to believe that this game isn't capable of going total Planet Vulcan exploding by rabbit rage levels of illogical?
3. what about the big angry spider robot? There is no indication anywhere that any group has the technology to build something like that until you get to later discs. What purpose does it serve if death is part of the grand plot?
4. Yeah...the situation with Adel is foreshadowed heavily in disc one if you look for it in the radio tower. While you could make the case that Squall is making the story of Adel up in his delusion, it makes absolutely no sense to the plot in this case to have it there especially if death is the narrative. .
5. Seifer's an insufferable asshole from the opening cinematic. When you fight Seifer right before the first fight with Edea, Seifer's pretty high up on the badguy-o-meter. It's not hard to imagine Seifer getting caught up in a delusion suggested by Ultimecia-as-Edea, and going full crazy badguy from that point on. This is especially true as you remember that Edea herself was the matron mother of the orphanage that most of the cast grew up in. There's no way, faded memories or no, that you can completely remove the mother figure from your subconscious. Even Squall doesn't entirely lose it.
5.5 This part of the theory also ignores the common Shonen rivalry trope that the Japanese audience loves to absolute death and is included in practically every medium.
6. A dislocated/torn shoulder does not a death make. There are no vital organs where he is hit.
7. The focus on Disc 1 events in the acid-trip sequence near the end credits can easily be credited to that being where most of the establishing memories coming from. And yet you still see scenes from other discs.
8. The faceless Squall moment is about the only part of this theory that has any plausibility, but only if you count a Western interpretation of it. A faceless individual is seen as someone who has no identity or sense of self. The theorists seem to see this as Squall losing his ability to differentiate memory from fantasy as his mind finally shuts down. However it can also be interpreted as him being unable to remember himself as they explained earlier when time compression unravels. Remember that Squall is a loner by nature and he doesn't like relying on others. Rinoa broke that, hence his attempt to focus on her. Unable to remember her, he is unable to remember himself, as he has no other anchors. It's an admittedly creepy image, but far from the most creepy JRPG games have produced (Giygas says hi).
9. If the end sequence is supposed to be "His" heaven, then what the hell is Edea doing there? Or Seifer for that matter? And why show Squall offscreen from the camera shots?
10. The little red animals aren't any different from Moogles in relation to previous installments. And they're pretty odd for a delusional figment of someone's imagination. If that were the case, why then are they not more prominent throughout the story?
11. The writers and producers say they wanted to write a romance, not a total mindfuck. Theorists invented the mindfuck.
Ultimately this is just a modern-day ghost story told for no other reason than creepy factor. It has very, very little to base it on.
+NaarghultheShadow I read all of it. Nice
This theory would also explain the fact that the summons take away memories, which was never mentioned anywhere before, and if they did cause that it'd be explained or at least mentioned.
Does the ending fit with the theorum? I watched the ending and while it is symbolic that Squall walks a desert until he dies...and is found by Riona to be dead (she holds him he doesnt wake up), the rest of the ending seems to be rounding up all the friends for a reunion on a big ship that then is filmed as if in a home movie...
With what happens after the battery dies saved for after the credits.
This suggests an ordinary story line. If it was extraordinary such as Squall is dead...how do we explain everything after Squall's actual death in Riona's arms?
Is the rest all...Heaven? Do they all meet again in some afterlife as friends like they were in the orphanage?
Any ideas?
squall is seen alive in the garden after the credits, so, yeah, this video is false.
Not only that, but it would stand to reason that he was alive even if the game *didn't* show him. For two reasons:
1. While Rinoa is still holding Squall in the scene where the clouds roll away and they're in the field of flowers, she looks down at Squall and is obviously surprised at something. She'd have no other reason to look at him that way, other than him regaining consciousness.
2. If Rinoa were truly out there by herself on the balcony, it would clash with the way Selphie reacts to seeing this! Selphie is obviously very happy to see whatever's going on out there. That makes it much more likely to be Squall and Rinoa together, than Rinoa being out there alone, talking to herself...
This is really funny. But informative and interesting.
You may say it was really close to the chest, but still far away from the rib cage. It didn't even come close to scratching any vital organ.
What you see at the end of disc one is edea's limit break where she conjures up a bolt of ice and throws it at her enemy. This was caused by squall himself putting edea in a weakened state. It is magical damage and would be strong enough to put squall in a weakened/unconscious state but not kill him. As for there being no wound in the world of FF8 magic does not appear to inflict physical harm it just inflicts pain. The opening scene is very important which seperates physical/magical damage by the way seifers fire spell hurts squall but inflicts no real damage whereas getting hit by seifers sword gives squall that glorious scar we all know and love.
I like the idea of this theory it is indeed interesting but if you really know this game and the world its set in squall surviving edea's attack is perfectly logical. Lets face it he took alot of magic damage all the way through disc one right up to that point as most enemies use magic lol
Thank you! Yes, this is what I've been saying all along, among other things. The arguments in favor of the theory in general aren't very well thought out. For example, *does* the game get more fantastical after disc one? I'm not so sure. Because we may see talking moombas on disc 2, but we can see talking mummified ghosts, shadows, and monkeys on the first disc! Not to mention the odds of three people having the exact same dream at the exact same time (twice!) are practically zero.
This theory is so unfounded that when I posted on the SquallisDead website and refuted it with hard facts about the game itself, they threw a fit and banned me, lol.
+Vic 2.0 Except that's not what you did lol. You flamed anyone that may have agreed with the theory, then got salty and posted in the comment section of this video LOL
Drari Discussing is not flaming just because people don't want to hear what you have to say :) And yes, I refuted the theory from several different angles, mostly pointing out how all of the arguments in favor of it are flawed.
Drari For example, proponents of the theory try to claim that Disc 1 is closer to being realistic than Discs 2-4 so (in their heads) it means that Squall is dead and dreaming. But talking mummified ghosts, talking shadows, and talking monkeys are far more fantastic than talking moombas. Likewise, the fact that three different people have the same exact "dream" at the same exact time (TWICE!) is far more unlikely than the vast majority of what takes place in the later discs.
People also try and claim that Rinoa suddenly fell in love with Squall in Disc 2 without ample reason, ignoring that he had just saved her life at the parade and that Seifer (one of the guys she had feelings for) was sitting there cheering along while a sorceress tried to kill her. It would be far more unrealistic if she *didn't* make up her mind right then and there to follow Squall!
Face it, the theory's unfounded. And people who insist that it's true do cowardly things like ban people who refute it.
Hey Vic, could you send me PM with your e-mail so I can talk to you about this theory and FF8's general direction in their writing?
I've been researching for a while about why this story is the way it is (mildly confusing and, in the final parts, terrifying); I've seen you in the official SquallIsDead website (banned for, IMO, idiotic reasons) and in a couple of other videos, so maybe you could shed some light on the matter.
The reasons for me wanting to talk about this are various, one of them being to possibly write a full essay on the matter that is fully compatible with Final Fantasy 8's plot (without all these "R=U" and "Squall is Dead" theories).
Thanks in advance!
Yeah this theory is super lame. It's foundations are so weak, and a lot if not most of the points can be easily contradicted.
A website creates a theory about Squall being dead, and forgets that the game is, first of all, a fucking FANTASY game, if it was meant to be realistic the whole time, the name would be Final Reality, and not Final Fantasy. Also does not consider the own game's story, which clearly talks about sorcery since the fucking beginning, and time comprehension from certain part. Forgets about portions, phoenix down, magic, junction and summons, a guy that can use a gun which is able act as a sword, or a sword that is a gun, whatever, and can shoot (Kinda realistic, hun? Bet you marines have some of those...). If there are "weird" stuff from disc 2 on, it means they didn't want to just give the best things away in the beginning, that's called marketing. Square wouldn't just leave things in the air to upset its fans. Proof of that is that it's clearly stated in FFX that Tidus is dead, and he's back to life in FFX-2. So, people, just enjoy your games, everything outside the box (Outside the creators story) is just as fake as a si-fi story.
Squall Leonhart Time Compression*
And it's not mentioned from the start, I can remember the exact moment it's first mentioned because it was so out of the blue. Start of disc 3 when the party talk to Edea.
Also, I only meant it was more realistic than normal, meaning the character models were realistic, not like super deformed anime characters and they were in a school next to a normal town. Then the plot just goes wild all of a sudden, more-so than the other games. Usually the games are pretty consistent in their tone.
Also, Tidus wasn't confirmed "Dead", more like confirmed "Was Never Alive". He was essentially an aeon, which the Fayth re-summoned in X-2.
EDIT: Creating fan theories and discussing different possible ways the story could be interpreted IS enjoying the game, and I'm sure the creators would be flattered that people are still talking about it 16 years on.
But this video is kinda funny though :)
Squall Leonhart :D
Squall Leonhart I think the more lucent point in this video is that theories like this come about from terrible writing. Final Fantasy VIII was easily one of the worst Final Fantasy games ever made. If they had put an ounce of thought or care into the crafting of the story, theories like this wouldn't have any point of purchase. Unfortunately, this trash game was so full of inept writing and plot holes that any number of theories could be considered, if only to splint the deformed and badly mangled appendages of this aborted game.
Squall Leonhart I hate the idea of it...but I am almost convinced it is true...Squall is killed by Edea in disc one, just as a certain someone was killed(or paralyzed according to game theory which don't worry I don't believe)in 7. When I first visited the website I was completely against it but then I thought of the timing it started to make sense. How do you top killing Aerith? I think they killed the main character of the game in 8 and since we play as the main character we experience his dying thoughts as he tragically clings to life. I believe squaresoft intentionally left it up to interpretation because it is far too dark and deep of a concept for what basically amounts to a children's game so the openly say it and then quickly gloss over it as if nothing happened. Normal magic and items are meant for battle related injuries so the element of sorcery provides a perfect cover for what I believe is the greatest testament to their genius. I feel that squaresoft knew they could not take it as far as they wanted if everyone knew what was happening in the final scene so they left the story up to the gamer to decide so can we please stop the criticism one another over fictional characters.
If aeris couldn't be saved by a Phoenix down then it applies here as well.
May I point out that Squall was impaled by an icicle in the right side. If Edea (being controlled by Ultimecia) was trying to kill him she would had impaled him to his heart but there lies the question. What was going on inside the mind of Edea? What if for a short moment Edea recognized Squall after the battle and made the Icicle to not kill him. This would suggest that Ultimecia lost control for only a short time after the battle and when she was ready to kill Squall, Edea came to and aimed for his right side and not his heart. And the "no wound" Squall must had that icicle taken out and was patched up.
One of the only ppl that has sense. Ppl legit ignore the fact he got hit in the shoulder area. Yes that wound is severe but in no way, shape, or form is it a 1 hit KO
This is a bad theory just saying
Maybe Rinoa is really Ultimecia. Now I have this theory about it. When Squall dies at the hand of Edea at Disc 1, we see Rinoa going for him and calling him. And because of much grieving about Squall's death. Rinoa creates another persona which is Ultimecia, and she absorbs Squall's GF (which is Griever) and got the power of compress of time. And then Ultimecia goes to the past where she can undo the death of Squall, and then disc 2 happens. But the thing about this theory is, Ultimecia didn't actually go the past, but in another parallel dimension where, Squall still lives. And so she finds her another self. So there is two Rinoa on that dimension. And that is where the disc 2 starts. This theory I've have formed is based on all the theory that I've review regarding FF8. Now as you can see, in disc 2, it's like all the fortress, castles are floating in the air. That's because this is in another parallel dimension, which is, in the world where Ultimecia came from, they got no flying things like that. So that confirms that Ultimecia didn't go the past but in another dimension. That also confirms that Squall's GF which is Griever is within Ultimecia all along, because she already absorbs it when Squall's died on her world. Now, Ultimecia thinks that she is in the past, and is jealous of the other Rinoa because supposedly she should be the one who's with Squall. So she try to destroy there relationship. But in the end, got defeated. Now when Squall's kill Ultimecia, memory of the other Squall overlaps his. (Because Griever) And the end where Ultimecia says "Reflect on your childhood" she means that see through the memory of the other Squall. And that's why his seeing the memory of it, seeing Rinoa from the other dimension is actually Ultimecia.
+Gaius Mugenus Silverus
nice ^^
Except that the game identifies Ultimecia as a sorceress "many generations" ahead of their time, and the Ultimania has already confirmed that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans. All of this reduces the theory to fan fiction. Sure, it can be *possible* if you add in a bunch of stuff, but what "theory" *can't* be made possible that way? For example, the X-ATM mechanical spider is really Zell from the future. He started with the face tattoo, so that's evidence that he likes to alter his body in weird and permanent ways, right? So that confirms the theory, right!?
@midshot I can't quite be as in depth with my video, due to length and whatnot. I just tried to outline the basic theory and left the comments section open for viewers to fill in the gaps themselves. It's what makes a community ;)
+Matt Vinci I think you just assume there aren't good answers for everything you're curious about in the game, because you really want this theory to sound plausible.
"Here we are, on disc 2, at Zell's "mom"'s house. In Zell's bedroom, which the party was not previously allowed to enter."
So because Zell finally lets Squall and the others see his room, Squall must be dreaming it? Seriously? Squall is able to encounter a demon in a lamp, talking mummified ghosts, talking monkeys, talking *shadows* and experience the same dream as two of his peers at the same exact time (twice!). But you think getting to see Zell's room is the fantastic item we should fixate on. Wow.
"Also, how about when Squall, and Rinoa are floating out in space, and Squall goes UGHH WERE GONNA DIE OUT IN SPACE, THINK! n then out of nowhere, a moon appears that has the Ragnarok floating around it."
While this is certainly what they call in literature a deus ex machina, there's absolutely no evidence to support thinking that Squall is in control of it. If he were, then Rinoa wouldn't have ever been separated from him in the first place.
"Hmm, n then the whole weird conversation between Rinoa, and Squall in the Ragnarok."
Do you have a specific statement you think lends credence to the theory? Like I said, everything has a good enough answer; we don't have to make up fan fiction and then pass it off as serious theories to explain the parts of the canon we don't understand.
To be fair all the characters in every FF ever take insane punishment and don't seem to mind to much. Sephiroths supernova anyone? How many times do you have to destroy the same solar system to kill Cloud?
Man, I remember saying this random theory way back in the days of forums and eyesonff but didn't think people would still be talking about it today...
Even if he survived that whole ice attack, its possible that he could have been killed at the end. He clearly passes out and Rinoa cries over his body. Then, as you watch the ending where Irvine is recording people, he panels the camera to Rinoa out on the balcony and she does that pointing thing with her finger and no one is standing next to her, then the scene switches over to her point of view and she sees Squall. Possibly showing that she is seeing the ghost of Squall.
The best part about this theory, is it makes sense. And, during that particular scene... I did walk away from the game saying. "Whelp, that was fun, just finnished disk one and the main character died."
I thought about it but being honest, it makes pretty simple sense afterwards that Edea healed him because she needed information from the current SeeD's about their "secrets". As Squall was the one who led the SeeD charge against Edea she could simply used her powers. Mind you that the power of the sorceress was never properly given limits and it is strong enough to meld all reality into one single time compressed universe, who are we to say she can't heal him. I go with simple plot deduction.
I didn't expect Raijin to be so strong either. The Game Over screen doesn't make me go "Oh well, that's one possible ending! I've finished the game! Time to play Dino Crisis now!"
My explanation for the "no wound" was always that, since Edea is actually Matron, Squalls loving mother-type figure, that something in her subconscious "pulled the punch" so to speak on her attack so that it looks like he's impaled, and it knocks him out, but isn't actually a puncture wound at all. Still, kind of fun to think about.
Well we already know that magic attacks do not draw blood or do permanent damage from watching the intro, when Seifer hits Squall with fire and it doesn't do half what the sword (physical attack) did to Squall's face. But ultimately, we can't just ignore or argue with the discs that follow without good reason, and no one's ever been able to come up with a truly good reason to question everything we see on discs 2-4.
Just played the game and while I find this theory interesting it doesn't make much sense because then how exactly would you explain the dream sequence with laguna's party before this, after all people don't just get unconscious on the spot and have the same dream
If we theorize that Squall died, we can also theorize that Cloud died. Cloud remembered that Tifa stayed unconscious for 7 days after her ordeal as a teenager at Nibelheim. She also apparently stayed unconscious for 7 days after the ordeal at the North Crater. This is all in-game canon. Cloud could have been imagining the entire events after disc 2 while dead in the lifestream. What other beloved FF game endings could have been dreams?
the only thing that matters..is that rinoa looks like nam gyuri
lol love the "shit gets crazy" recap-- garden ships, garden planes, motorcycle on gardens, circuits like freeways...
This is related to Yu-No, Re: Zero the Isekai theme, and parallel world. Squall jumped from one world to another world.
Actually, several times in Advent Children Complete. And he still manages to do the omnislash version 6 completely ignoring the fact that he's might die soon if he doesn't do something.
I think its like FF7, in FF7 was realistic in the very beginning, and became rare when we discovered RED XIII aka Nanaki, which is the son of the great guardian (i forgot his name) and gets more and more "fantasy" when the weapons are awakened thanks to Sephiroth. Its the same thing, and Cloud could be "dead" since that incident but he survive and we see as Tifa perspective later, so, it could be the same
is almost like every FF is about a fantasy when a main character dies at some point of a story.
I mean look at FF10. are main character has flat out been told his a "dream" near the end of the game. meaning his been dead for 1000 years. he is actually a spirit that became physical to see, hear and feel.
There's a big flaw at the beginning of the SquallsDead theory; it says why would Edea heal Squall if she wanted to know about SeeD, why not someone more experienced? When Edea killed Squall, she felt something, hence the closeup of Edeas eyes (Edea realized Squall was one of her "children" from the orphanage) starting from then on, there was a struggle between Edea and Ultemecia for control. Edea wanted to know why she felt something when she shot Squall thats why she brought Squall back to life
This is a FINAL FANTASY game, Yuna, Paine and Rikku jumped down a massive hole to reach the farplane and didn't even twist an ankle, Blitzball players hold their breath under water for long periods of time, magic is used, a little girl named Realm DRAWS PICTURES of monsters and uses it against them, the list goes on and on with what happens in Final Fantasy games, ANYTHING can happen.
So yes he could of died but he did not...
Squall was hit by ice spear on the right side of his chest. A human heart is located more to the left side of the chest. As long as ice spear didn't strike any vital organs, it would be very possible to survive.
Exactly. I mentioned in another comment a while ago that the only large blood vessel in the shoulder area is the Axillary Artery, which wasn't injured by the spear, I can prove: the spear pierced through Squall right below it, I'd say about 3 or 4 inches below the area where that Artery is located in the body (his body to be more specific). So, it's no surprise at all he survived. :)
You got me at Army Base Wrestling LOL
I love it. Perhaps Squall WAS dead, perhaps not. But wouldn't it be great if that was yet another hidden plot that the player could discern?
Also, "Squall's Final Fantasy" is an awesome way to interpret the continuation, assuming he was killed. And I wonder... it all makes sense? Could I really have missed that after more than ten years?
It doesn't matter that she's fighting her past self and Squall at the final battle; She lost all her memories.
@koalalauncher Actually, I should point out that I don't think Rinoa even mentions Seifer once after the events of Disc 1. When Seifer is down at the end of Disc 2, she doesn't kiss him. When you see the scene later when Ellone sends you back, you see that Rinoa is posessed by Ultimecia and she is whispering orders to him, about bringing up the Lunatic Pandora etc.
Fun fact. Some of Squall's characteristics is based on the 80's heart rob actor River Phoenix who is dead 6 years before FF8. Seifer on the other hand is based on actor Keifer Sutherland. Can you see the pattern? Try watching the movie Stand by Me and you'll see excerpt scenarios of FF8. The first time I knew the Squall is dead theory, it sure haunted me as a fan.
I know the theory you're talking about. It's slightly inaccurate, though. There are no air bubbles when Aerith is going under water, and recently killed bodies can still sink. Gas build up from decomposition begins almost immediately, and if Cloud would have stuck around for awhile he would have seen Aerith's body on the surface.
It's not squall's dying mind, it's Rinoa's. Rinoa is crazy and the entire game is her mind snapping trying to change reality. That's the thing you missed about the game. She felt guilt for rejecting squall to a guy that ignored her and when squall died it made her live a crazy "fantasy" from the trauma for the rest of her life until she died in that space accident where here helmet was smashed. That's why she can "see" squall in the ending, but a camera cannot. Rinoa is a nutcase.
(I'm done after this) And possibly the reason why Rinoa quit acknowledging Seifer as the one she "loved" was probably because she accepted the fact that Seifer was brainwashed by the sorceress and that if meant killing him, it would have to be done and she knew Squall and everyone else needed her the most. She saw that Squall was really a good guy when he always came back for her. In conclusion, the Squall is Dead theory isn't anymore real than the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory.
You forgot the biggest point in your ending.
Not only was life "flashing before his eyes"...when Rinoa finds squall, he's seemingly dead. She cries.
And then the clouds pull back, flowery fields...he wakes up
not sure about theories but i do know about psychology, and the way squall was presented when wondering about the wound clearly shows that it WAS supposed to leave a big hole on his chest. Although if you look closely it pierced him near the right shoulder, just below the clavicle, it could easily have missed the lungs, and in irl you could have survived that, just some haemostatic and bandages, i dont think he'd have lost enough blood as to die from that. (but the hole is a fact)
No, no. I don't back it, but the theory basically suggests that as soon as Squall's hit with the ice spear and he starts dying, everything from disc 2 onwards just flashes through his mind. An inner attempt to answer the questions he had in disc one, and to resolve any regrets he had, he fabricated the entire thing as a "life flashes before your eyes" montage. It just says Disc 2 onwards never happened.
I know this was in the video,but I just wanted to kinda reinforce it.
Go to the squallsdead website and take it up with the guy who originally came up with it then :) I just compiled this video for RUclips.
Don't forget who was next as the sorceress. It was Rinoa. It couldn't be his death dream, but the final scene of course proves otherwise. But again let's reconsider what Squall did before. He killed Ultimecia, the empress of time. It's possible that his visions were blurried because of the flow of said time.
what i say is, if cloud survived a stab from sephiroth's sword which looked extremely painful and mortally wounded was still able to survive (its confusing but I think it was Zack) but survived anyway
you know i got a theory about the no wound thing, maybe just maybe unlike Cloud and gang. Someone remembered to use a healing spell or potion on him? cause its clearly displayed that they freely use magic.
The wound wasn't deadly. Edea is obviously caring towards squall because even though we don't know it who she is in the plot, she does. She's a sorceress who healed him. That's what I always felt. Cool theory..
The ice would stop bleeding but it would also freeze and kill surrounding tissues. Who knows how cold magic ice really is?
This is my theory also at this point in the game edea was fully possessed by Ultimecia so she had no way of knowing what SeeD really was so she healed squall to interrogate him, and let the others live as back ups. What I don't understand is why Irvine wasn't put in the prison.
The Squall is Dead theory remains unfounded. Every argument in favor of it's been laid to rest. I know this because I'm one of the ones who refuted them.
no, you can even survive those. whats really fatal is plot, you could take down Cthulu and all his friends without breaking a sweat but if the story says that jerry from down the street is supposed to kill you then he could do it with a plastic spoon and no amount of phionix down will save you
The parade was a "battle", plus notice the lack of blood? They did it as such for a dramatic effect. Also Laguna never was with raine when she died. Laguna stayed in that city as president and couldn't leave really.
Ellone was with her and she and squall were taken to the orphanage. Ellone then left leaving squall alone. (which explains his antisocial behavior)
Actually the only real problem with this theory is that it's perfectly acceptable for squall to have survived the ice to the chest. If you watch the very end of that clip, the ice is on the right side of his chest. No major organs or anything.
@Patricia34276 Nah, Irvine joins the party shortly before going to Deling City. He's the sniper they use to try and assassinate Edea to begin with. But thank you for the compliment :)
ice helps stop the bleeding though, and if you know anatomy then you know that being hit in vital organs would cause death, otherwise it would be just extremely painful and may cause a shock or paralysis if the spine is damaged. That is explained in the Aerith's death theory. And even Cloud was stabed by Sepiroth's sword and he is still alive, and not once but TWICE!
i remember when squall yelled aloud in the galbadia garden "I will never be spoken as past tense!!!" or something like that
I believe that Sqaull is stuck in a time loop. Witch would explain why he is back at the Ball/Dance with Rinoa at the very end of the game (after the credits).
I am aware. It is also very possible to bleed to death. All you need to do is hit a major artery. With a spear that wide I'm surprised it didn't.
sorry, i meant "there weren't a scar, but when ..."
I know, but a wound on the shoulder like that one doesn't cause that much of blood loss so easily.
i would agree ...but remember the cost of using the GF is memory loss and squall says " i will gladly give it up" forgot the full convo but he pretty\
much says that
Respond to this video... if i had to pick a side i would go with it because, it would also explane the end when squall is in the middle of no where and falls to the ground, to only be found by renoa, and when she hugs him the desert turns into a field.
The weird thing Ultimecia Says I'm quite certain that's a say for us the players, just think about it... No matter how much you try to hold on the time always keep running.
And about the look a like of Rinoa & Ultimecia I'm 100% Sure the reason of that is to show "No matter Who or What your are, The choices you make determine how your life turns out!"
Rinoa & Ultimecia are the same: Witches but Rinoa Decided to Keep peace while Ultimecia decided to be the ultimate life being.
@Jillsexyvalentinefan It's not my theory, I just made the video. Take it up with the guy at squallisdead