Consent is everything. On my first play through, I couldn’t escape how unethical it was that they kept Ellie unconscious and refused to inform her that this experimental procedure would end her life. ‘It’s what she would’ve wanted’ is bullshit when they are the people denying her that choice. Ellie believed she would live through it when she says to Joel ‘After we’re finished with the fireflies, we can go wherever you want’. They were murdering a child and we’re supposed to condemn her adopted dad for trying to stop them
Ellie was never going to be given a choice once she went to the fireflies. Even if she said she didn’t want to they would have strapped her down and did it anyway, for the good of humanity
A medical professional actually said that even he wouldn't sacrifice Ellie since she didn't really need to die, especially taking in the fact that she's literally the sole chance of a cure so that means she NEEDS to be kept alive for research. This just shows how the Fireflies felt backed into a corner and has lost their sense of meaning and purpose for their original cause.
Correct even a basic medical professional would tell you is need blood and tissue samples not by popping out someone brain killing the host the mutation would be in the DNA blood and skin cells
Because naughty dog love to put thorn in story, i mean look at TLOU 2 they put thorn in every corner because they're high and mighty when the flower(TLOU 1) bloom
I think even with keeping her alive for research, they wouldn't be able to make a vaccine, I mean the world kinda stopped at 2013, and I don't think that with that technology they could make a cure, even now in 2024 is pretty hard to do one related to fungis (I'm sorry if there are any grammar errors, this is not my first language)
Any doctor that would willfully kill the ONLY known survivor of an otherwise deadly infection is not only guilty of medical malpractice, but shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a scalpel.
It's not a doctor, it's some half-educated butcher apprentice. Seriously, if only way he can extract that tissue around Ellie's brain is by butchering her, he is an incompetent idiot and given previous failed experiments he made, a child-murderer. Hell, now that I think about it, the second game is probably one of the few (if not only) work that wants us to sympathise with child-murderer.
It's not even just that he's doing something that will be fatal to the only known case of immunity they've encountered, but that performing a fatal operation is literally the first and only option they ever even suggest. They don't even CONSIDER performing any other kinds of tests in an effort to study how her immunity works. No brain biopsy, no blood work, no other tests of any kind. They just leap straight into the all-or-nothing option that they'll only have a single opportunity to get right. You don't take the only possible source for a cure and/or vaccine to a disease that has otherwise had a 100% infection and mortality rate and risk it on a complete gamble that could cost your only source of research without even TRYING any of the plethora of non-fatal tests options you could attempt. Even if we completely put aside the ethical question of Ellie's inability to consent due to them prepping her before she regained consciousness, it's a completely asinine decision in purely pragmatic terms.
I also don't know why they needed a cure so quickly. Sure people are dying everyday but they'd be dying even if Ellie had her brain carved up. Spend the time studying and exhausting any other option. Why do they need to get to studying the brain raw So quickly? Like Its not gonna be so fun when the brain sample gets destroyed because a scientist got mad or the place was overrun, or like the fireflies lose it or it gets ruined in some way.
@@CHamlin86 Like it was stated she never truly got to experience a life where she could be happy or have peace with friends and family she was only exposed to horrors and trauma that trauma led her to believe she should sacrifice herself for the people that died and she had a chance to save others who suffered the same fate as people she cared about this was also because her immunity didn't allow her to suffer the same fate which made her feel guilty but that immunity was something that was completely accidental and could have happened to anyone that isn't right for her to decide she doesn't deserve to live if she can save others if she dies that is completely wrong and may I ask you this if your daughter or son were in the same position would you really give up there lives even if it is against their wishes to save them think long and hard you have raised this child you have formed such a strong bond and they say they will throw their life away for the sake of humanity would you really be able to live with that
@@CHamlin86 her sacrifice would be useless. theres many comments going over the impropability of a cure, but lets say the fireflies actually make it. now who are they gonna administer it to? their own members, and then who, survivor and raider groups, one as derange as the other, some starting to leverage it in markets to just become more powerful, a cure would not fix humanity, it would slightly help, and thats all. as for all the reasons a cure can NOT be made, among other things, here, copied directly from another comment: - The Fireflies did NOT have the expert they needed, he died. Neil Druckman retconned that in the sequel and he admitted that he always wanted Joel to die in the original but was denied by the first games Director. - The Fireflies had ZERO capability of manufacturing a cure as they did not have the materials, nor the supplies, nor the equipment, nor the know how, nor the personnel. People don't realize what is required to make a vaccine. The Fireflies had NONE of it. - The game established that the disease was fungal in nature. You CAN'T make a vaccine against a fungal infection, its NOT possible. - The Fireflies erroneously thought that Ellie needed to have her brain diced up to find a cure. That's NOT how cures work. Its like thinking that you can fix an engine with a hammer. It doesn't work that way. - Ellie HAD a cure within herself...Ellie has the ability to pass on her immunity through her offspring (children). That was a far more realistic & tangible cure and by killing her erases this possibility and it pisses me off that nobody considers this. - Ellie was like 14 years old during the events in the first game. In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?
@@blu4390 You are completely missing the point with all of this. Putting up all these medical and logistical barriers as to why a cure wouldn't work or couldn't work is completely missing the point of the narrative. The narrative isn't about the viability of the cure, it's about Joel's and Fireflies' actions. It was meant to demonstrate that neither side was right because they both denied Ellie the choice. It's a Socratic exercise: suppose a cure was completely viable and could save humanity. Suppose Ellie had to die to create this cure. Is it moral to kill her if she did not want to make that sacrifice? Is it moral to save her if she DID want that sacrifice? This is what the ending of the game is trying to explore, but so many are just caught up in loving Joel and they can't refuse to accept the fact that he made a selfish immoral decision at the end of the game. "In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?" A fictional one. This is a video game...
Retcons tend to have the effect of making people forget that they are retcons. I think it's mostly a case of people just taking them at face value and not going back to see what changed
Ok so I’m not crazy I swear in the original game I found a recording that said that in the hospital. But people kept saying i was capping. Then No matter were I looked in the remaster I couldn’t find it anymore.
That's because it was removed. Any of the beautiful nuance was removed in Part 2 which is why it's so dog water which is why the Part 1 remake reconned some stuff that relates to Part 2. Even if there is a sliver of goodness from Part 2, like the gameplay and the Joel and Ellie segments, the majority of the product is pure asinine@@ToxicVex267
Top that off with the fact that the Cordyceps virus isn't a _virus_ , but a _fungus_ , meaning any chance of creating a vaccine would be doomed to fail.
I also love Joel's quote with the "I would do it all over again" Because who hasn't played TLOU again and again. We've all done the same thing for Ellie again and again because we saw the relationship they had, we lived through their best and worst moments and we do it all over again.
In my opinion, it really doesn't matter if he made the right choice. Because the game is about an individuals experiences. Its about Joels wants, not what you, I, or the other characters would want to do. Joel didn't have a choice when his daughter died, but with Ellie he does, and he he just doesn't want to feel the lose. I think there is a time and a place for the needs of the many vs the needs of a few argument, but The Last Of Us has other priorities. Edit: plus, I think the Trolly dillema is too simplistic. The point is to save *as many as possible* and many of these situations could likely be bent to save as many as possible, including the supposed one you must sacrifice.
I played the first one at least 30 times over even did grounded mode I tried to play the second one again and I just couldn't losing Joel hurt too much and I hate playing as abby
It really annoys me when people say Joel was a killer and got what was coming to him when he LIVES in a world full of zombies and killers. You wouldn’t be a nice guy in that situation everything he did was for his loved one or because he had to do it Edit: a lot of people came with different opinions and respected mines while I respect theirs a lot of people give complying reasons on why they think the way they do and I love seeing a game from a decade ago still get talked about with so many ideas. I do get the weirdos who just say “ JOeL bad ANd KiLLeR” but seriously respect to the people who genuinely have good arguments
Yep! People have forgotten to take off the rose tinted glasses of our world and look at it through the lens of the last of us. People die in that game for a lot less.
So let me get this straight, you are saying that people like Joel who robbed people, tortured and killed innocent doesn’t deserve to die because there are also bad people in this world?
@@Messier_-82 I’m saying he had to do what he had to do to survive in this kinda world. Ellie killed thousands of people just for the sake of revenge do we think she’s a bad person. No we don’t because we see it in her view. Same with Joel
@@Messier_-82 and no Joel didn’t torture a innocent person the guy he tortured was one of the guys who took ellie then almost every one he did kill tried killing him first he didn’t just walk into a town and started shooting up the place
i always think about what Troy Baker said regarding Joel’s choice - “And I have a son, and I don’t know what I would look like if I lost him. But I do know that if I had the opportunity to save him I would do anything. I would do anything to save him. So people have asked me, why would Joel do that when he could have saved the world, and my answer to them is always this - he did, he did save the world. It’s just that the world was that girl, and that’s it.” Yeah, he was right for a lot of other reasons but that right there is everything to me. You think my mom would let me die to save humanity? No, because WHAT is humanity worth if her daughter isn’t in it?
Joel was justified in saving Ellie. He was NOT justified in butchering so many Fireflies needlessly in his effort to save Ellie. Likewise, Abby and her Friends were as just as justified to pursue Joel in order to make him fully accountable for the needless killings he committed.
@@Wasserkaktusthat's such a massive cope, if you have to kill someone to save someone you love and it's not because that person did something wrong so they need to be saved from punishment, then anyone killed that way was allowing evil to be done, Joel could have killed a million fireflys, wouldn't have made his actions any less right
@@calebbarnhouse496 And apparently you can't realize the exact logic you applied to Joel EQUALLY applies to Abby too: Her father was brutally killed by Joel, and even when you play the first game, you even see that Joel absolutely did NOT have to kill her Father: Joel could have easily incapacitated him and the other doctors, taken Ellie, and just run off. How does your logic apply to one party, and not the other? Explain this.
@@Wasserkaktus I wouldn't say that. The Fireflies would have killed Joel behind Marlene's back or would have tried to stop Joel from taking Ellie. So Joel had no choice but to kill the Fireflies either way for self defense or to save Ellie. As for the surgeons/Abby's father even if you try to spared them (since they don't have guns) Abby's father tries to kill Joel to prevent Ellie from leaving and since Joel didn't have time to incapacitated (story wise not gameplay wise) he just killed them. As for Abby's and her friends being justified with killing Joel you are completely right. However the way they did kill Joel isn't. Joel kills with efficiency he doesn't prolong his target's suffering unless he needs information.
@@Wasserkaktus everyone he killed threatened his and ellies lives. marlene pointed a gun at him, the surgeon who was going to murder a 14 year old, held a scalpel against joel. he HAD to kill them. there was no needless deaths, even though it'd be justifiable.
Problem to the "Trolley-Problem" at the beginning: The Cordyceps-Virus wasn't even a virus, it was a fungus. Meaning there wouldn't have been a vaccine to be made out of her "immune" cells, because Ellie wasn't even immune. She was just, well, lucky, because when she got infected, the fungus did not take over Ellie's brain. You could say, it was like a "benign tumor" or some sort of symbiosis: Her brain remains fully functional and the fungus doesn't spread over her body, while the fungus prevents her from becoming infected again. There is no recreating that, and there never was a need to kill her to "study her brain".
@@coreyrogers4819 Suspension of disbelief is not suspension of intellect. The developers hired experts in their field to add authenticity to this doomsday scenario. They're not going to toss all of that effort right at the end of the game. These simple facts, coupled with the obvious delusions and incompetence present in the surgeon's own notes in the first game, are there to show you the cure wasn't ever really an option. The end game scenario isn't Joel putting Ellie ahaead of the rest of the world, it's Joel stopping a terrorist death cult making a human sacrifice because they believe the gods will surely reward them with a cure if they do.
Not when they went out of their way to make this as realistic as possible. They moment they did that was the moment Suspension of Disbelief went out the window. @@coreyrogers4819
Okay…. With Marlene saying Joel has no idea what she’s been through is insensitive to me. He was there from the time his biological daughter was born and held her in his arms as she died and he was about to lose Ellie who was like a 2nd daughter to him. So it’s like he’d be losing a daughter twice
Pissing competitions involving trauma are always going to be insensitive. Joel telling Ellie that she didn't know what loss was when Ellie brought up Sarah was insensitive as heccc
Marlene raised Ellie from birth to 14. Joel was with Ellie for roughly a year… Marlene doesn’t know the specifics of Joel’s past. It’s a reasonable statement from Marlene, albeit insensitive.
@@cheesebasedMarlene didn’t raise Ellie until 14. She probably took care of Ellie after her birth/Anna’s death, but it was most likely for a short while. Ellie grew up in a military school which Marlene placed her in. Marlene did not have an active role in raising Ellie.
@@bitethebook7650yes but Ellie never knew her mom, grew up in shitty military school, struggled with her sexuality about liking her best friend Riley whom she had JUST gotten confirmation that Riley liked her back, only to then lose her immediately to infected. And then because Ellie was also bitten, had to stay and watch Riley transform while she had no changes whatsoever because of her unknown immunity. She also ended up killing Riley when Riley turned and she didn’t. And then she respected Tess during their brief time together, but that was cut short. Then the whole Sam and Henry thing was tough on her as well. At the end of the first game she tells Joel all of this and how it weighs on her. So yes Ellie had not lost a child, but she’s been through her own shit at a young age during impressionable developmental years.
A few things... - The Fireflies did NOT have the expert they needed, he died. Neil Druckman retconned that in the sequel and he admitted that he always wanted Joel to die in the original but was denied by the first games Director. - The Fireflies had ZERO capability of manufacturing a cure as they did not have the materials, nor the supplies, nor the equipment, nor the know how, nor the personnel. People don't realize what is required to make a vaccine. The Fireflies had NONE of it. - The game established that the disease was fungal in nature. You CAN'T make a vaccine against a fungal infection, its NOT possible. - The Fireflies erroneously thought that Ellie needed to have her brain diced up to find a cure. That's NOT how cures work. Its like thinking that you can fix an engine with a hammer. It doesn't work that way. - Ellie HAD a cure within herself...Ellie has the ability to pass on her immunity through her offspring (children). That was a far more realistic & tangible cure and by killing her erases this possibility and it pisses me off that nobody considers this. - Ellie was like 14 years old during the events in the first game. In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?
Literally just harvest antibodies from Ellie and clone those antibodies. Tech that exists TODAY and is RELATIVELY simple to do. It's why the first Covid cures focused on harvesting antibodies from people who already went through it. Then the vaccine came later.
The first point is somthing I'll write about at the end - So long as they could make a small number of their cure it likely wouldn't be difficult to the aquire the manpower and material necessary to produce it on a large scale - Fungal diseases also don't function like they do in the game so there's enough creative leeway that a vaccine style cure to such an infection isn't impossible, equally it could be that the term vaccine isn't perfectly accurate but that a cure is still within the realms of possibility - Essentially a repeat of the pervious point, while it may not be how it would function in perfectly accurate reality it's somthing that I do believe would probably work in the game's own world - It's certainly a possibility that she could pass on the cure to her descendants and likely something worth considering although it doesn't present any sort of wide scale solution to the infection - While yes 14 year olds aren't to be trusted with such important decisions it was more so a decision of the Fireflies against the decision of Joel Now for my words on the first point as well as a summery of what I'm getting at. Which is that I believe the Fireflies have to be right about the cure and be able to create it for the choice Joel makes to hold the weight it does, him choosing Ellie over the cure means nothing if there is no cure. The choice matters and is impactful precisely because it isn't the objectively utterly good one if it was then the whole thing becomes pretty hollow
@@Sylas_TAC The entire plot is hollow, and just wrong. It's terrorist-supported doctors attempting to mutilate the brain of a child as if that is how you actually make a cure, as POINTED OUT by the OP? They have no justification for what they are doing. Neither vaccines nor cures are made by dissembling someone's brain and somehow plucking out the answer from the result. They are made by using white blood cells from the immune to interact with dead infectious cells until the WBCs consistently manage to destroy the infectious cells. Then you take a mixture of that solution and inject the population. The game trying to somehow point out that Joel "ended the world's hope of survival" is entirely unfounded as proven by LOU 2. There are dozens of communities across the country, not speaking to the entire WORLD, who thrive in these post-apocalyptic conditions and have managed to bulk out their areas of humanity with relative success. Joel's effects upon the country were effectively zero, as evidenced. Passing on her immunity to descendants is ABSOLUTELY something that would have been viable, because it would have meant (from a pragmatic and soulless perspective) more subjects to perform experiments upon to find a viable vaccine. Also, as POINTED OUT, the Fireflies had no means of actually mass-producing the vaccine and giving it to the rest of humanity. They do not have the transportation, the infrastructure, the supply chain, the manpower, the equipment and so on. This entire bullshit plan was made by a fringe group of pseudo-moralist terrorists who, in their last dying days, attempted to enact some psychopathic 'cure' by pouring their resources into abducting a 14-year-old and operating on her to cause her death and somehow extract a cure from her brain. It is far more disgusting of a moral concept than the people who simply loot and kill others to survive, because at least in those instances it's reasonable and in-line with what people would do IRL.
Druckmann also desperately wanted a revenge story in TLOU1 but was denied several times by the games other director. Fast forward to him becoming President of Naughty Dog and he conjures up a revenge story for TLOU2 and then goes in to TLOU1 HBO show and shoe horns in another revenge story that was never in the game.
There is no way in hell you can allow a literal child with survivors guilt to make decision to end her own life. That is extremely morally wrong and in completely illegal in most countries as well.
There is no country, there are no laws, there is no hope for humanity in that world. THATS THE POINT!!! You’re all talking as if your 1st world comfortable world’s laws should bind a world where literal monsters are winning a war of attrition against our species when breaking one of those laws could potentially win that war.
We are not talking about laws per se, but the morals of the actions. A goal of the Fireflies is to return to a safe but also democratic/free society again.But are they going to sacrifice those same values in an attempt to get there?@@daviddreyton8586
My favorite quote about the immunity was from Tess where she said “you’re not immune from being ripped apart” sure the vaccine would keep bites from being lethal but there’s still the very possible danger of being totally outnumbered by infected so the positives would barely be noticeable, they will not stop trying to kill you vaccine or not.
True but we have multiple characters in the first game die simply to a bite If people were immune, they could reclaim areas more safely and a few infected getting into an area wouldn't be a death sentence for that community For example, the sewer community we see in part 1
From Ellie's pov, I think if a vaccine saved just one child it'd be worth it. Just because it wouldn't make them invincible doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth it.
I found her recording as well. There's 2 of them. Actually I can't remember which one goes into the whole chat about. The fireflies wanting to kill joel. But yeah Joel didn't have a choice and I would have done the same thing in his shoes.
@@grimmeclipse2605I don’t think they were gonna kill joel, the recording says they wanted too but she decided against it. Also handled the same in the tv show.
In TLOU Part 2 it was revealed Marlene originally didn't want Ellie to go through with the surgery if it meant her life had to be sacrificed but eventually gave in when Abbys father convinced her. Also the Fireflies are terrorists I highly doubt if the cure was successful they would use it for the good of mankind but only for their own benefit whether its to give to their own people or sell it to help finance their organization
They were already shown to be liars when they told Joel he could get his stuff back and his reward for transporting Ellie, but as they were walking Joel out, they skipped by his stuff with no mention of it, showing they had no intention of fulfilling their words to Joel and were most likely planning on getting rid of him to keep the cure a secret and Joel obviously caught on to that
The problem with this argument is the fact that there's no second game. The Last of Us is a single game, why do people keep pretending there's a sequel out there?
Prople often overlook how the moment Joel escaped a gun in his back, the entire Firefly force, wearing body armor and helmets and assault rifles (the same as the guy who stole Sarah from him 20 years earlier), came running toward him and never offered so much as a "surrender".
@FraserSouris that was before joel killed them tho? after marlene talked to joel and told him about ellie's fate, marlene told a firefly to escort him out and the soldier was literally pointing a gun at him and marlene didnt seem to give joel his stuff back nor the promised guns and "then some" from what is said at the start of the game? i think thats what op meant? i think idk im dumb
@@sodapopworks550 The guns were lost on the way to the hospital. Originally they were supposed to meet in the capital building. The deal ended when the fireflies at the capital were killed.
Also, lets not forget the recording at the hospital that Joel finds that says the Fireflies really had no intention of letting Joel go and were going to kill him. Joel's biggest mistake was lying and continuing to lie to Ellie.
Yes and no Originally the fireflies did want to kill him. But marlene gave the orders not to do it because he would understand what she is going through
It's One of The Main Reasons why I always supported Joel's Decision on The First LoU. Of all The Adults that came across Ellie's life.. Joel was The Only one who sought out what was best for her. As a Parent.
My biggest gripe with the whole Firefly cure plan is the logistics of it. Even if by some miracle a cure was developed, how the hell is one ragtag group of people that are actively being hunted by the last remnant of the government, that barely got across the country in the first place, going to distribute said vaccine. Were they going to walk into places like Pittsburgh, Seattle, or Santa Barbara, places we know are completely lost to people who are unable to return to a pre-Cordyceps world. The first city they walk into touting their cure, no one would believe them, and they'd most likely get brutally killed. Humanity had its chance, and there is no going back. The only thing a cure would have guaranteed is Ellie's death.
Agreed plus there is always the possibility of the Fireflies using the cure as way to gain control and power. Forcing people to join them if not they will be killed.
But people will tell you that "Neil said it would work so it would work" or "suspend your disbelief" no. That's not how it works. If their aim was to create a story where this cure could possibly be distributed and restore order, then they failed. But they didn't fail, because that was never their intention. Neil just retconned it so hard so that he could make his Part II without Bruce and Amy and others in the way.
Same. A "cure" means nothing if people like David walk around the country. You tell anybody you have the cure, nobody is gonna go back to how things were. No raider of cannibal is just gonna throw down their weapons and sing around the campfire. At that point Joel saw the absolute worst of humanity and just didn't care. He wasn't gonna lose another daughter on a slim "maybe"
And anyone who genuinely believes the fireflies would have just handed over that "cure" are crazy - as if they wouldn't try and use that to gain more power. Nevermind that if any Fedra were still around - they wouldn't have taken it from them in the first place, or would have foricbly taken it for their own gain.
If they had a cure, they could make a settlement that was immune. That meant that any survivor that joined the settlement could also get the cure. Which meant that they could expand into places vulnerable people couldn't. It isn't something on the level that can restore the civilization as it was, but it can mean a new feudal civilization where they have a cure and a monopoly and can force the peole that straggle into their settlement into servitude in exchange of a cure. They can be even more cruel and make a cure in the same style as the cure in Dead Rising, where you need a dose every so often, that way you have a 2 caste system, a group of immune people and another dependent on a fix.
People always bring up Joel as an example of a "morally grey" character, but when I first played through TLOU, nearly every decision he made seemed perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. TLOU2 attempts to retcon the fireflies into being a righteous, competent organization, but there's so much evidence in the first game proving otherwise.
TLOU2 doesn't attempt to retcon the fireflies part, there's just not much mentions of them. Abby views them in a positive light as she was a part of it, but she wouldn't really know how incompetent they were anyway, she was young and she has her head up her ass. The remake of TLOU1 still paints them the same way. The only thing retconned was the difference between the military and FEDRA, all was just turned into fedra.
The TV show to me developed a question about Marlene - she found Ellie’s mom as she was dying, she took Ellie and saved her and then later discovered Ellie’s immunity. She could have put 2 and 2 together at that point and realised “if the mom is infected when the child is born, maybe that’s what creates an immunity response in the child”. We’ve seen the Fireflies be absolutely brutal and callous…it doesn’t seem out of their wheelhouse to perform experiments on pregnant women to recreate the same conditions. If Marlene had any suspicions about this, which I’m sure she must have since she vaguely knew the circumstances of Ellie’s birth, I feel like she would have shared those suspicions and lead the Fireflies down a path of extremely cruel experimentation. “The greater good” and all that. They’re not opposed to killing a child for the same reason. Not saying they SHOULD have done that, but I am saying I feel like those particular desperate people WOULD have done.
Honestly, what keeps Joel's decision from being a gray as it is both the Fireflies actions regarding finding the cure, and the state of humanity in TLOU2. The Fireflies aren't the noble medical unit they're built up as, and considering that even they're not certain if dissecting Ellie's brain will make a cure since she wasn't even their first subject, it makes them seem more incompetent and reckless than anything. With the humanity's state. It's not as bad as it could have been. In fact, it seems that there are whole communties with food, shelter, and an electricity. All the conflict and pain that happened in the second game was out of revenge, not the natural dangers of the world. If they wanted to show how Joel's decision doomed mankind, they should have showed how much civilization has deteriorated between games.
Very good point about humanity's state in that world. It always baffles me when people say that Joel doomed humanity, when there's plenty of evidence pointing otherwise.
The fireflies are made out to be the group that will save humanity and bring us back to what we once were. But playing through the first game all I saw was a group of people that were way over their heads. And by the end I was with Joel on getting Ellie outta there but for different reasons. Mainly even if they made a vaccine I couldn’t trust them to properly handle the responsibility of keeping it safe. Plus even if they did make one the worlds already screwed and that wouldn’t get rid of all the infected running around. Not to mention if the fireflies do start sending out the vaccines to other communities what’s to stop a group with ill intentions from over running them and taking the vaccine for themselves since the fireflies have shown their not very smart when it comes to strategy and combat? Not to mention if the fungus was able to adapt from bugs to humans what’s to stop it from adapting to the vaccine as well and making Ellie’s sacrifice meaningless? Also even if they did SOMEHOW make it how would they go about dispersing it they’d have to travel all over the world.
@@magicmoonmonke Personally I don't think that the potential cure we could get from Ellie would work or not. Though I do doubt the fireflies capabilities to create a cure/vaccine as well as their intentions since they're kind of propped up as people who see themselves as mankind's last hope. Yet the way they act when Joel brings them Ellie is no better than the Fedra Soldiers at the beginning of the game. I think it's more fair to say that whether they could succeed is debatable, and to me that even more so justifies Joel's admittedly selfish actions. Who would be okay with risking a loved one for a "maybe?" Especially when the Fireflies are immediately jumping to cut Ellie's brain open without getting her expressed consent. What's the rush? Why couldn't they wait for her to wake up and verbalize her decision to through with it? Maybe because they feared she might not be okay with giving her life to save mankind? Sure, in hindsight with Part 2 we know now that she's okay with that. But that's after the fact, and who knows how she'd really respond at the prospect of giving her life when she's staring death in the face? Maybe she would have backed out when it's a real possibility that she would die. Now though. If they had waited for her to wake up and she had given her consent. Then that would paint Joel in a much darker light. Because he'd be going against her wishes for his own selfishness. Or if she has refused and the Fireflies forced the issue, then they'd be the bad guys and Joel would be explicitly in the right to save her.
@@MrSupersonic2012 I can't call Joel completely unjustified, but to me without the extra info that proves the unreliability, Idk what I'd do in that situation but I feel it's wrong to be like "Well Joel was completely in the right" when it's still depicted as just rough, especially the surgeon, that bears consequences for the second game. I don't think he was right and some of.thr kills kinda felt extra (of course he pry doesn't want anybody calling for help or pulling something) but I can't blame him if that makes sense.
I think it's important to emphasise that it's not a cure, it's merely a vaccine, it only protects the rest of humanity from infection, it won't really change that much consiering the biggest source of death these days is raiers and being torn apart by clickers
From the beginning, Joel’s motivation and character was I cannot let/loose another child, regardless of the worldly circumstances. Even him saying “find someone else” was because he didn’t want to put a child in danger
Ignoring the fact that no one has ever been able to make a vaccine for a fungus, even before the collpase, the fireflies were acting in bad faith. Not only did they keep Ellie unconscious they tried to kill Joel for questioning their actions and they went back on the deal they originally offered him.
@@lrsb1678 In the game they were going to kill him, either by taking him out the back and shooting him or by kicking him out of their base with no gear. Either way, their intent was implicit.
@@lrsb1678 the game also points out that moral and her leadership is hanging by a thread, and the guy leading Joel out at gun point is the same guy who said to kill him. He was 100% going to kill him.
@@elitemook4234and the surgery had a 90% failure rate over 11 or 12 subjects. It was on one of the few papers you couldn’t actually take as a collectible, you set it back on the desk.
I never understood why they needed her entire brain to take a SAMPLE. A sample is taking a swab. A sample is filling a vile. A sample is taking a small amount, not the entire thing. Legit, how many times has a brain surgery been performed where a small amount is removed, and the person is relatively fine after the fact. They didn't need to do a surgery that would kill her. If they only needed a sample, then taking enough to kill her was going way overboard. They were planning to merk a kid to get a sample that might have been useless to begin with. And no one had the right to say "This is what Ellie would have wanted" when they hadn't even talked to the girl and fully explained the entire situation to her. Joel was right to follow his heart and protect the child he could after losing the child that he couldn't.
Also, in real life, they wouldn't immediately go for the brain... they collect samples of white blood cells and such and would need way more scientists to help progress the studies, because it absolutely would take them so many decades. They most definitely would need her alive, at the very least for a long while to see how and why she was still living despite the cordyceps infection growing in her brain. his character just seems so poorly written and messy. there's also no information in either game revealing what education or knowledge he holds on the cordyceps already. and it's revealed by a professor in the show, that the only known way to handle an outbreak, are bombs. because with her many decades of research of cordyceps she concludes through her own extensive research, its not possible, the cordyceps destroys the brain, and it works fast, too fast for a vaccine to ever actually make a difference.
From the moment I played through the hospital scene, I never doubted or thought what Joel did was wrong. If I was in his situation I would have done the same.
We all would have done the same thing. The game is trying to get it's Audience to understand that if you were Abby, tho, you would have also done the same thing in killing Joel. We can do what we think is right in life, but it doesn't excuse us from Consequence.
@@kenbell3101The torture had nothing to do with the her actions. That was just a reality of living in their world. Her friends dying is their own fault bc they're just as responsable for Joel's death. Abby had 0 personal consequences.
I just wanna point out Abby saying to her dad I’d be okay with it if it were me about killing Ellie is some of them most psychopathic shit I’ve ever heard lmao. “So it’s okay dad you can kill this other child that is not me against her consent since I would give you consent.”
Thats what annoys me about part 2. Ellie's arc and its message about revenge is actually pretty good and the gameplay is supurb, but the Abby story arc is just so badly written and poorly fleshed out and every attempt to get you to play as her just pollutes the entire experience.
@@sunnyisabunny1479no they just forgot about it. I literally thought the story was going to start off with tommys town being destroyed because ellie kissed her girlfieend and infected her. Then they just kinda forgot about that.
Hahahaha holy shite, you're right. She did bite Abby at the end, didn't she? Just when I thought Cuckmann couldn't get even worse at writing. Let's face it, they completely retconned that. She kissed her gf in the DLC of part 1 I'm pretty sure. Then she snogs Dina all the time in Part 2. So her saliva doesn't do anything anymore. Unless somehow her blood got into their system in Part 1 trough the bite @@sunnyisabunny1479
Sacrificing Ellie to 'save humanity' is a big shortcut when you think on it, given the state of the world, how fractured the people are and the already done damage, plus you can't even assure the Fireflies will succeed in making a 'cure' to begin with, for all we know there could be no cure possible and Ellie being immune could be a beyond rare happening with her immunity unable to be shared
Theres like a near 100% chance it woulf have failed considering the conditions. Its like some random guy trying to make a cure for cancer from.some rando who got better from it. Not something thats likely to happen in our world today, let alone 20 years after the fall of humanity .
ANd the biological fact that a vaccine for a fungus is impossible - An excellent cold open in episode 2 of the HBO Series that fills in the knowledge gap, post facto, about whether not creating a vaccine was even possible. Regardless of Lab and Hospital availability etc, it's just couldn't happen. That should provide some solace to people unsure of which way they would lean on killing or saving Ellie.
Even of they could've made the cure, which I doubt, that doesn't make all the cannibalization, rape, theft, and murder go away. People who fell to that depravity don't change just cus there's no fungus zombies anymore.
You're forgetting that the fireflies claimed to have already tried to extract the "cure" from potentially dozens of others and failed. There's a strong chance her immunity is a rarity and not re-creatable or so rare it's not worth it, like the person that survived rabies.
Plus if Ellie lives long enough to have children, there’s a chance she can pass on her genetic immunity to her children. As more & more people get exposed to the zombie fungus & die, her children with immunity will survive & continue to proliferate their genes, eventually (over hundreds to thousands of years) changing the genetic makeup of humans, thus giving them a natural immunity to the fungus. Plus it’s unlikely Ellie is the ONLY human immune to the fungus, which would greatly accelerate the process, provided they don’t die in some dumb Firefly vaccine development centre, completely cutting off the chances of them passing on their genes.
Yes, they experimented on lots of infected people, to no avail. But Ellie is the first person they could experiment on who is immune. The Fireflies seem to think that studying her is the key to getting a cure. It doesn't matter whether you think they can, or not, that's missing the point. The point is that Ellie should get to decide for herself whether she wants to go through with the procedure, and neither the Fireflies *NOR JOEL* gave her that choice.
@@CHamlin86 joel couldn't give her the choice, because the fireflies knocked him unconscious and put her under anasthetics. but yea, i don't see joel letting her sacrifice her life
@@CHamlin86the Fireflies could have contacted Actual Scientists 👩🔬 and Doctors from the CDC and other facilities in the world there has to be other facilities in the United States were it’s actually possible to make a vaccine 💉
When you think about it, Joel and Ellie not going to the fireflies would’ve actually turned out better. In part 2 Jackson had people constantly clearing out infected close to the civilization. I firmly believe that if Joel just lived there with Ellie, that place would eventually restore humanity on its own
I like that belief but I also think of that sewer community we run through in part 1 All it takes is one bad day and that community is wiped off the map
@@Deni_Sokolovic Yeah the one with ahab. You go through it with sam and henry. Iirc someone left a door open, a few clickers got in and it was downhill from there
There was a while where i truly felt conflicted with what joel did but after i watched game theory explain how unorthodox, medically unsound, and morally wrong the fireflies were with the whole situation it made me fully support joel in his decisions
I mean, I think a person would just have to put themselves in Ellie’s shoes. Being robbed of a choice is like the worst thing that can happen to a person.
@@XFizzlepop-Berrytwist exactly, the fireflies never gave her that choice in the first place. Honestly if they had just let her wake up and allow her to choose, which yeah she most definitely would have sacrificed herself, but she would have been able to talk down Joel and they could have had a proper goodbye before her operation.
@@CaesartheX I dont think we know what she would have chosen honestly. Not until TOU2, though that feels way too… different for me, like they just had her be mad at Joel for story.
@@CaesartheXsee I can understand not doing that on the fireflies part I could understand a group of people who've been fighting in the apocalypse for 20 years not letting consent be the one thing to stop them Like in their defense, they've had to kill on the daily to survive and there's multiple communities that do way way worse due to a lack of authority to punish them
@@CaesartheX i mean, they could have given Ellie a choice, but the reality is that she didn't actually have a choice anyway. This was to save humanity and whether Ellie said yes or no, the fireflies were 100% doing the operation either way. I think doing the surgery without telling her was actually the kind thing to do as that is a tremendous thing to put on a child. Had she said no, she simply would have died in fear. People need to remember, that Ellie could have be given the illusion of choice, but she didn't actually have one.
One thing I also wanna mention is how we were watching Ellie be forced to grow up. In the beginning of the show and game, she was bubbly and relatively cheerful. but after all that she saw and went through, it numbed her down and forced her to mature.
Indeed. At first after meeting joel she was all cheerful and going on an adventure. Eventually, all her past traumas started surfacing, as people kept dying besides her in horrible ways, she saw groups trying to kill her and joel for petty shoes and few pennys, she saw a pedophile and torturer who wanted to satisfy his disgusting urges, etc and many more. All this played a significant part in her turning mum and silent towards the end chapters. She saw a father in joel which she never had, she saw how people died protecting her, and joel was basically half dead at a point. People forget she is just a 14 year old girl born in a apocalypse. Ofcouse she would want to die to protect and end all this suffering, because she knows no other way. But the story in tlou2 ruined everything for me. Elie bitching joel and joels pathetic death scene for a npc doctor. And the games attempt to make us sympathize with the psychopath abby and forcing us to play as her for 5-6 hours. DIsgusting.
@@iwonderifbloodswatchbluescluesThe fact Joel even worried let alone trusted Abby at the start was a retcon of his entire character. Dude didn't trust anyone and they'd been attacked before. He's just going to trust some random butch bitch that outright says she has a whole group of friends posted up nearby?! No chance. He'd put a bullet in her face the instant she said that.
One thing in the first game that I find interesting are some of the audio logs you find near the end. What I take from those is that humanity is shooting itself in the foot by trying to find a cure. They have killed a couple immune children already, yet nothing has worked. They would keep trying, kill more immune children and keep failing whilst ironically forcing evolution to not build immunity by killing the only immune ones. All immune people are children, that means that the immunity is a recent, but present mutation in humans. Every single child with that immunity should be kept alive at all costs. Their genes and their children are the future of humanity. Their children will most likely be immune and their children's children, until all of future humanity is immune. Preventing that from happening by killing the ones with immunity in the hopes of a realistically small scale, short term solution is what dooms humanity in TLoU. They should protect the future of humanity, not destroy it in an attempt to fix the present of humanity.
Yes, finally someone noticed this too, and adding to that, I’m going to be a little “controversial” I found baffling that Ellie in part 2 is always blaming Joel for not letting her “save humanity” while at the same time, she could literally try to have children to pass on her immunity, but the writers rather have her as just an angry lesbian
@@nicolassouza6063 FINALLY someone says that. I was thinking that too. She blames Joel for not letting her save humanity. And yet she's dicking around with Dina like a cuck, protecting someone elses baby. She could've had her own immune child and save humanity by creating a life. But no angy lesbian, because lgbt stuff was popular and "in" at the moment
@@nicolassouza6063 It wasn't about "saving humanity." It was about "saving her living conditions." She wanted _the easy life back_ by finding _an easy fix._ It doesn't exist. Although it was coming from a secular argument, the _belief_ was exactly the same as sacrificing a child to create favorable weather.
@ssouza6063 I always thought that was odd, too! It is pretty interesting how Ellie is seemingly willing to quite literally bite the bullet to give humanity a shot at immunity, but when that doesn't happen she never tries the next available option, which is to spread her immunity via having biological children. She can sacrifice her very life for humanity, but can't stomach sacrificing in this way? Especially considering her having children is probably the best shot at spreading her immunity to the rest of humanity- the first game mentions how live fungal samples of the inert strain of cordyceps were found in her bloodstream. This means that any kids she'd have would be made immune in the womb thanks to fluid transfer with the umbilical cord, and any daughters of hers would also be able to spread the immunity via the same process, and their daughters after them. It would take generations, yes, but eventually, that inert fungus strain and humanity would form a mutualistic relationship similar to humanity and our current gut bacteria. After that happens, humanity just has to outlast the infected- they still are living creatures, after all, and if they can't reproduce and can't get their hands on their primary food source of humans, their numbers will drop thanks to them starving to death, dying from exposure, and being picked off by survivors. It'd be a long war of attrition, but it could work. There's also the idea of inoculation via simple blood transfusions, which would theoretically work the same way but would be something of a crapshoot since you'll kill someone if you give them a transfusion with the wrong blood type. The ability to do en masse blood testing to avoid that is probably only possible in FEDRA hospitals. Trying to get Ellie into a QZ without her getting killed and then FEDRA actually believing Ellie was immune and agreeing to work with her would be next to impossible. Ultimately, Ellie having kids is probably the safest and most guaranteed way of spreading immunity. You could have had a really interesting character conflict in Ellie by having her struggle with reconciling the fact that her children might be the only hope humanity has and her own sexuality making acquiring said children unpleasant at best and downright unbearable at worst. This wouldn't fly with the crowd that Neil courts, though, and they'd probably screech about it being "conversion therapy rhetoric" or something similar but equally stupid. So instead of having Ellie face that genuinely interesting, thought-provoking dilemma, they don't even have this option cross her mind and she just gives up on trying to spread her immunity despite being incensed at Joel for saving her from the Fireflies.
You know would be a real subversion of expectations? Imagine if when Ellie found out the truth about what happened with the fireflies and just didn't care. Like she realizes that she has an amazing life in Jackson and prefers that to a slim chance for humanity to be restored.
Or she knew Joel lied, maybe even went back to the university and found the tapes, the degree that showed the doctor was not qualified, even that they had no equipment to manufacture a cure. But she knew he lied, and though she hated him for that, not trusting her, she understood why he wanted to spare her. She'd just told him she had survivors guilt! And she forgave him years ago. She loves him for the good dad he is, and not the bad man he was or the bad things he sometimes has to be.
@@voidvalkyrie2263it’s not that simple, when you’re basically the only person to not having to get fucked up by a mushrooms and that you have the idea of being humanity’s only hope after having your crush, your protector’s partner, and two brothers dead, as you could consider them like martyrs, it’s not that easy, especially if all the people you have cared about either died or abandonned you except one
@@arislekabile It isn't that simple, but knowing a blow is coming makes it easier to deal with. She'd investigate the lie after a few years, feel angry about it, but once she found out a cure was impossible she'd have to come to terms with reality, that her death ultimately would have amounted to nothing except breaking Joel and accept that life's full of choices and they all suck, but a least she can move on and live happily in Jackson. She'd understand that his lying to her wasn't cool, and he couldn't have known a cure was impossible, but he did it because he loved her, and lied because he knew how much a cure meant to her. He made the right decision. They made the journey on the hope for a cure and got one: a cure for their loneliness. Bright side, glass half full, optimism. Honestly, it'd be nice to see Ellie reading a Bible. She likes the idea and wants to see those she's lost in heaven. Everyone's lost someone in this universe, so she has people to talk and sympathize with, but you're more likely to be killed by people than infected.
And also, assuming the cure was a guarantee, there’s no way it wouldn’t have become a political weapon wielded by the fireflies. They would definitely not have give it out to everyone for free and made the world one big happy family
And the experience by itself. The world will never be what it was before COVID-19 because even if everything is as it was, now humanity will always fear a new and worse outburst. The same to this theoretical world: even if the world regained its order (something more miraculous than Ellie’s cure!!), they would always fear a new infection, or what they would be able to do now that they know how deprived of moral they can really become given the exact circumstances.
@@ginopinori Only real differences between before and after is that working from home becoming common was accelerated a great deal and everyone became a touch more nuts than we already were Otherwise, we're right back to how we were before
which serves the fireflies purposes anyways, them failing at a cure still keeps them in power by denying other factions from doing it, specifically the military faction they where fighting with. They never planned to save humanity.
I understand Joel. The world isn't really worth saving anyway. You can and should certainly try to save it, but I draw the line somewhere and way beyond that line is sacrificing my kid.
@@juststatedtheobvious9633 Lets say your child’s death would have less than a 50/50 chance of saving everyone? And then lets say that the people that would make a cure are a morally compromised group of terrorists that very much painted in this world as the heroes but if ya look at the lore, they’ve done fucked up shit just like everyone else and regardless, they’re willing to kill a kid on a hunch that she can be the cure. Not even a certainty. Again, the doctor wasn’t sure he could make a cure. And this is a terrorist group whose resources are limited and they’re on the backfoot of a battle that they’re losing. AND this is all assuming if they could theoretically make the cure, that they’d use it for good and spread it to as many people as possible and save the world? The reality of life and TLOU universe is the Fireflies would’ve 100% used the cure as leverage for them to win the war instead of for the right reasons had a cure been made. They absolutely would’ve found a way to weaponize the cure and Ellie’s death would’ve probably just resulted in more chaos and pain. If the situation was as black and white as people make it out to be, I would be inclined to agree with self sacrifice but when the odds of the sacrifice doing any sort’ve good in the world are nonexistent then why sacrifice what you love?
Right, that's what makes it such a difficult ending to process. Because the moral thing to do is to sacrifice your daughter, but the human thing to do is not to. Joel is 100% morally wrong to not let them do the surgery. From his perspective, though, there wasn't even a choice and he would do it all over again if he could.
NO ONE is saying that. Many people fully understand Joel’s decision WHILE seeing that it was morally gray. That’s what makes the ending so great. Retconning the ending for “Hero Joel and Evil Fireflies” is extremely lame and NOT AT ALL what the game showed.
@@joshmiller9783 In the universe of the game, it is definitely not impossible. It is established early and often that the only hope for a cure is Ellie. People have this weird thing they do where they try to apply real-life science to the game as if using the cordyceps growing in Ellie's brain could never yield a vaccine but somehow cordyceps making the jump from insects to humans and also changing the way it functions in nearly every way makes complete sense.
The reasonable thing to do, would have been to ask Ellie, what she wanted. I blame the Fireflies stupidity more than anything, and do take Joel’s side. He had to act or Ellie would be dead. Ellie was robbed of that choice.
The point stands that the ones at fault wee the fireflies, they underestimated the love joel felt towards Ellie, what he did was understandable but the consequences of his bad actions came to him.
The second game seemed dead set on just destroying Joel as a character. Solely breaking him down into a villain that 'got what he deserved'. There at least100 different better ways to go about it and they went for the low hanging fruit. Which is why so many people hated the second game. It completely destroys what the first game stood for.
I can’t remember the creator, but another channel on here did an amazing breakdown of The Last of Us Part II, and placed his own version of the story at the end. His version is so much better and more satisfying than the one in the actual game! I’ll have to see if I can find it again, since I think you’d enjoy it.
@koolkittykat04 There's a few out there. There's a particular one I'm trying to find again. By a British gentleman who basically wrote out the entire second game as a passing of the torch sort of story. With Jowl telling Ellie early on about what he did and her forgiving him. Explaining how the operation only had like a 5% success rate. And he didn't like those odds. Even showing her the document he found (that you could find in the original game, but none in the re-releases for whatever reason) with things then shifting to him. Teaching her how to hunt and survive. Build shelters and then how to find materials to craft weapons and such.
@@Snicketbar Oh, I found it! It’s by The Closer Look. It might be the same video you’re thinking of because I do remember the narrator/creator being British.
@@lrsb1678 My guess is that it went against the narrative they were going for in the second game. Which was for 'Joel to be a monster and got what he deserved'. Leaving that in would have made Jowl right in not trusting the doctors and made his actions somewhat understandable. Albeit a bit extreme. Since he was essentially lied to. He had risked his life along with Elies and lost several friends and family for something that had a high chance of not working. Which they can't have because it would have made Abby look like the monster. (Which he still is) But then his actions wouldn't have been justified in their eyes, and he would just be a psychopath. ( Which again he still is.) They also made joel an idiot and acting completely out of character in the second game.
Walking threw Joel’s house was probably the first time I actually cried because of a game. I grew up with this character and knowing that Joel is gone forever is just a sad fact that took a long time to come to terms with.
I completed part 1 today again after almost 2 years of not having played it. This was my 3rd play through having first played the game back in 2016. However, the ending hurt me so much this time knowing what happens in Part 2. Don’t get me wrong I was not one of the people who hated part 2 but for me it does ruin Part 1 and it’s ending. They did Ellie dirty. It was absolutely horrible the way her character has to go through so much trauma. I mean what’s the point of giving us these characters if the end is what happened to her at the end of part2. Completely destroyed and left all alone. Left behind on her own. I would’ve rather had no part 2 rather than having it and ruining what Part 1 meant to so many of us. There’s already a lot of pain in our lives we did not need that for our beloved characters like Ellie.
Interesting note regarding the song "Future Days". I've recently watched "How i met your mother" and in one scene where 2 characters get married they've choosen Future Days as their Song. Started tearing up but not because of the marriage, but rather because it reminded me of Joel. Insane how after almost 4 whole years this song still brings up emotions in me.
I will always stand behind Joel in his choose because everyone seems to over look the fact that that this is not as simile as sacrificing the few for the many. If the Fireflies could guarantee a cure then there would be a moral debate on those grounds, but there trying to sacrifice the one in the hope they may be able to save the many, and in my mind that is not even an option.
Honestly? Fireflies isn't going to do this for the good of humanity. They can have vaccine as bargaining chip, overthrowing FEDRA and other communities. Or worse this become weaponized vaccine and tricks the desperate population into new wave of infected. The thing with HBO's revelation they want to control the infected like some kind of WHISPERERS of The Walking Dead on the ranks is just confirming my theory I have from the original game I mentioned above.
For me, if I was Joel's place at the beginning of the infection, when supply lines were still whole, and the CDC were the ones working on the cure, I would make the sacrifice, it would kill me inside, but I would do it. But the fireflies? No, they don't have the resources to make that sacrifice worthwhile.
The double standard that these developers hold is just funny. When Ellie goes on a violent killing spree, it’s oh so deep and meaningful because she’s traumatized and has been subjected to violence her whole life. But when Joel does the same thing to rescue Ellie, it couldn’t possibly be because he is still deeply traumatized from losing his daughter and was also forced to live a life of violence for more than 20 years. I’ve read fanfictions written by 13 year olds that were deeper than tlou part 2 lol.
You missed the point of the second game if you think it was a double standard. Both of their experiences of loosing a loved one were very traumatic and caused a shift in their view. Joel had 20 years of violence that we did not see. We did get to see Elie's first few months of what she experienced when losing a loved one. She was spiraling and becoming the same violent and vengeful person as Joel. While Joel held on to it for over 20 years; she was able to let it go.
Nothing is ever that black & white. Take the Mafia & the government for instance, everything that the mafia did IE liquor, drugs, gambling, prostitution.. the government now owns those rackets. So does that mean it’s right because the government made it legal? No. Double standards exists. Another example, the book *50 shades of gray* Women liked that book, because he was rich. If a poor man had such fantasies, they’d label him a creep & he’d be thrown in jail. *double standards*
I am not sure if the writers intended this, but for me the moral question in the end of the game gets answered during the prologue. The soldier shoots Sarah, because there is a chance she is infected and by killing her he is saving lives. But she is not infected and the only thing he ended up doing was murdering a child. Same thing with the fireflies. They think there is a chance that killing Ellie will give them their vaccine, that by killing her they would be saving lives. But I think that, just like the soldier, they are wrong, they would have failed, they can’t create a vaccine and all they would have accomplished would be the murder of a child.
I always thought "Okay" meant that she understood he was lying. That she wasn't really asking about the Fireflies at all. To me, she understood the meaning behind his lie and so accepted that relationship. Then TLoU2 did a 180 on that whole concept.
Well that was the take that a lot of people behind-the-scenes had. Like you say, she accepted the lie to accept the relationship. She knew something went wrong, she's not stupid unlike how TLOU2 portrays her, but by going along with the lie she acknowledges that Joel is protecting her from the stark reality of what the Fireflies *really* wanted from her. It'd be horrifying to learn that the woman who knew her mother and group that took in Riley didn't care about her until *her body* offered something to them, so instead she accepts to leave this horror she doesn't know to stay unknown. Unfortunately that's a very nuanced concept, so you can understand a lot of people who didn't play the game might just think "Lies bad" like this is some Saturday Morning Cartoon makes more sense.
This. She probably knew from the moment the drugs wore off and she had the chance to think about it. Does Neil think she's stupid? She knew Joel was lying but she knows how much he cares about her so she trusts him and goes along with it. But then suddenly bursts into tears of disbelief 2 years later when Joel tells her what she knew all along?
Over the years I've learned to disengage with the whole debate. I know that the purpose of the last level of the game and the ending was to cause debate over who was right, so I needed to stop picking a side and just enjoy the game for what it was actually about. The road trip of Joel and Ellie. The sequel? I don't mind it, but it's just never going to be compelling to me.
I never had a stake in this discussion to begin with but listening to the discussion itself about TLOU2 has been more interesting to me than the game. At least, the reasonable sides that talk and don't just scream at each other with claims of bigotry or wokism.
another thing to consider is that at the beginning of the last of us something Ellie always mentioned was she was afraid of being alone. we can use this to back up to why she still stayed in Joel's backyard. And at the End of the game part 2 she ends up being alone after letting Abby go and at the Farmhouse
The fact there continues to be debate on Joel's decision with some believing he is wrong is baffling. Not only in Salt Lake City Ellie she mentioned she'd go wherever he wanted after the visit to the Fireflies was done, back at the university Ellie asked how would they test her and if the procedure would hurt. Ellie was not then thinking about dying and the ending only implies that she was suffering through survivor's' guilt. Joel was also mistreated by the Fireflies with Marleen denying him to see Ellie one last time. He made the right choice.
I don't think 2 could hold a candle to how well 1 was. That's not by virtue of being a successor to a masterpiece, but by it actually being a DMC4 -> DmC style of disrespect and gross misunderstanding of the characters. I don't mind that Joel died, hell I think it was a natural consequence for his actions, but the way they did it, the way they constantly berate the player with "wow, isn't Abby so GOOD and COOL" and how they gave Joel a serious case of Plot Induced Stupidity, same guy that would never freely give his name away and drove away from a family at the very start of TLoU1... Would just give his name to a group of well armed strangers. Consistent retcons to ensure that yes, Joel was going to kill the worlds chance at a cure, that yes, the fireflies weren't incompetent morons but actually geniuses and the good guys. I think it's nice that a good majority of people think Joel was in the right, but a lot of what has been going on since the PS3 release has been acting against Joel's decision.
Most of what you said is not only wrong but makes no sense. When is the player bombarded with "isn't Abby so cool"? She's a leader in her group of people, and good at what she does. She has made some very questionable decisions, but she does also begin to make good ones once she sees the effect the decisions of her group have on others. It doesn't make her a good person, it just makes her a character that isn't a machine. Joel also didn't just randomly give his name; like in the video he had almost become domesticated. He wasn't out for just survival anymore. He was trying to help others, and when he saw Abby in need of help he gave it to her in good faith. It's also customary to exchange names when you meet people. Jackson was very welcoming of new people, and had grown. It was probably not out of the ordinary to see or meet survivors out in the wilderness. All kinds of people out and about were armed, so that shouldn't have been a big deal. They themselves were armed. He made a mistake and it cost him his life, but he also accepted that because he knew who he was. I don't know what retcons you are talking about. Fireflies were never geniuses and good guys. They were a rebel group, almost an anti-establishment militia in their own right. FEDRA had a lot of control and people weren't as free as they should have been. Fireflies were also borderline terrorists; I mean, they blew up a truck or whatever it was right in the beginning of the first one. Just like any group like that there will be sympathizers, but it doesn't mean that every Firefly group will be like Marlene's. A lot of blockaded cities and areas are gone now, and it's been a few years since Marlene died anyway. Fireflies are just trying to survive like anyone else, but it doesn't make them these all-of-a-sudden good guys. No idea where you got that from.
@@georgen5882 Did you miss the part where they hamfist how COOL and EPIC Abby's dad and by extension Abby and the Fireflies are when he SAVED that helpless ZEBRA and gave a HEROIC speech about saving the world? Or how about when you play as her right after you just finished playing Ellie who just murdered all of her friends. Y'know, that's very cheap writing to tug the players sympathies. No, but seriously, Joel was given plot induced stupidity. "He's gone soft, Jackson is welcoming", our first introduction to Jackson was literally them demanding they leave before Tommy was seen. Joel lived as a smuggler, he lived as a ruthless bandit prior to that and even the day the infected really took over, he still chose to abandon a family with a kid. He was a hardass very capable of being "cruel" if the time called for it. EVEN IF he had gone soft, there is 0 reason why he would give his name like that. Ellie made David work to get that name out of her, Joel was very reluctant with Henry and Sam despite their aligned interests. **Stop defending bad writing.**
I wouldn't go as far as to say they were saying abby is "so cool" her story was much bigger than that and that's what people don't/didnt understand, her story is more than a revenge to redemption ark. It's learning who she is. You learn shes not a bad person. She made mistakes but a lot of those mistakes were because she was misled by her groups leader. And she learned that from lev and Yara mostly lev since Yara was short lived. Abby was under the impression the seraphites were the aggressors and the wlf were defending themselves when it was actually the other way around even tho lev had his obvious personal issues with the seraphites lev still explained their side. The other person who was seeing the BS was Owen and he was trying to get it through to Abby. Even Owen saved a saraphite by taking out one of his own men in the process cuz the seraphite was not a threat. Not everyone in that group were bad people. Didn't seem like Owen and Mel were too happy with the way Abby tortured and killed Joel, Owen told Abby she was done. Mel distance herself. Abby thought revenge would help her it didn't, it also traumatized and gave ptsd everyone that was there. Ellie thought revenge would help but when it came down to it she knew it wouldn't. She was more fueled by the fact Abby took Joel before she could forgive him and she couldn't forgive herself. When on the verge of killing Abby she finally did that's when she spared Abby.
I just feel like we’re arguing about the wrong person here… what about Marlene… Picture a (boring finale) where Ellie hears both sides (Joel’s and Marlene’s/The Fireflies). I’d wager Ellie would choose to go with Joel seeing as how she finally had a place where she belongs and can actually grow up. There was a reason why Marlene and the other Fireflies wanted to keep the success rates hush hush…
Yep. I always thought it was pretty weird to think Ellie would choose to die. Even if she felt guilty over the loss of Riley, Sam, Tess, Henry, etc. it still would be a different story once the choice was right in front of her.
improbable. She already had her 'it can't be for nothing' speech. Ellie would have chosen to die and believed it was for a purpose. The game is pretty clear on this. This is one of the reasons it was such a big mistake of the Fireflies to not ask her permission.
It woulda been more interesting if the fireflies, ellie and joel had a conversation in which ellie agreed to do the surgery but then joel last minute decides fuck this and kills everyone then lies to ellie
It may be me but if I was Abby I would have asked why he did it. Not just kill Joel outright. And shooting him with a shotgun to the knee cause he has the same first name before confirming it is him is just stupid to me.
She's a psychopath. Chasing someone relentlessly for years and holding on to such intense hatred all that time. That's not normal considering her father was about to murder a child with the hope of creating a vaccine.
Ask him why. Talk to him even a little bit after he just saved her life. Maybe struggle with the idea of killing a man who risked his own life to help her not a few minutes ago. Who offered her safe harbor and supplies out of the good of his heart. She was ready to kill a man she hadn't confirmed was the man who killed her father. Joel could have moved out of Jackson or died years ago and this just be a random Joel. She then decides not to just kill him, be done and move out. She chooses torture. Demanding a tourniquet to prolong his suffering instead of letting him bleed out in a minute or 2. And then she thinks that Ellie will just let it go. There was a good story in TLOU 2 but you can tell that Druckmann was focusing on justifying Abby's actions and that weird stupid sidekick she picks up later on stead of working out the unresolved tension between Joel and Ellie.
Then she would have to learn that her father was a cartoon villain cutting off the heads of unsuspecting people in search of a cure he wasnt even qualified to find and would have made his death justified. That doesnt fit in with the way this story tries to manipulate you into feeling sorry for him dying.
I remember after I watched my Dad play this he (unprompted) told me (his daughter) that he would have sacrificed me. I went into my room and cried for hours. Like did you not understand the game you just played?
I'm surprised alot of people condemn what Joel did. What he did was reasonable due to the circurstances. EFAP crew also agreed that Joel was right in what he did.
@@benjoman8252 Wow. You got 'em. It was likely just a typo but _you_ got 'em. Neither of you dunces address his argument at all. Could it be because neither of you have any nuance? Or thoughts of your own for that matter?
@@intellectic9155because it's a ridiculous premise and an incredibly bold claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence that completely blows out the status quo. The idea that the writers of tlou 2 think Joel is Hitler is completely ridiculous and has no solid evidence to substantiate it. Engaging with someone who is at that level of dogmatic belief is an utter waste of time.
I watched the last of us before my own dad died. He was stabbed to death in 2021. I think if I would to rewatch the game, I would cry. We'd go on roadtrips every spring and summer. I was depressed during the time before he was killed, so I he'd ask if I would want to go on a roadtrip often and I'd just say no. The last time I spoke to my dad, I only asked him if he could buy me chips.
@@El_Bryan2k in trial I was a "witness of character" to my father. I was too emotional to go to the trial though, so I made a poster board of me and my dad and all of our roadtrip vacation photos across my province and the states. The judge looked at it for a couple of minutes, and cited it as the reason for charging the killer with a life sentence. So in a way I did. My brother however wanted to take Ellie's approach to it but luckily he didn't.
This will be a long comment but here’s the short story: In short, I agree with Joel’s actions to go in guns blazing through the hospital to get Ellie out of there for these reasons not including any attachment he’s developed for Ellie: 1. Fireflies too eager to quickly operate without enough testing to rule out killing her being the only option. They are also under equipped to do such a task like making a vaccine in a run down hospital. 2. Did not wake Ellie up first to inform her of what is going on. (Reason for this was of course so the fireflies could say to themselves “this is what she wanted”) 3. No mention of the supplies and weapons that was the whole reason for Joel doing the job in the first place. They would have sent him on his way with nothing or shoot him if he resisted. Long story: I feel like the Fireflies were in the wrong here overall. Let me paint the picture for the situation. There’s the Cordyceps fungus that for the last 20 years has ravaged humanity. In a 1 in a billion scenario, a girl who is seeming immune to this has been safely transported across the United States right to your doorstep and may hold the key to making a vaccine. Here’s my question, why are the Fireflies so eager to operate on her? Even in real life for routine procedures that a doctor might have done dozens of times, there’s still tests and examinations that have to be done but here we are dealing with a once in a lifetime chance on something that has never been done before. Before you would even humor that idea of killing her, you would want to rule out every other possible option before cutting open her brains. Ellie hadn’t even been in their care to do much of any tests before jumping to this. What I think the fireflies should have done is wake Ellie up and let her know what the plan is and then over the course of several weeks or months, do all kinds of tests and experiments and if that all fails, THEN you consider opening up her brains and killing her. How I would have fixed this is very simple. Just say that Ellie has pneumonia after almost drowning prior to getting to the hospital. Due to the chance she might die from the pneumonia, the fireflies want to quickly operate on her in case any medicine might not work in time. This little change would instantly validate the urgency. The surgeon operating on Ellie should have been presented as one of the smartest men on Earth pre-apocalypse. Have a scene in the surgeon’s office with tons of news articles, awards, and books he’s written to really sell the idea that this man might be able to make the vaccine. I’d feel more confident in him making the vaccine if he was presented as such an intelligent man instead of taking his word for it that he could do it. Also keep in mind that the fireflies were quick to send Joel on his way out of the hospital without any mention of what happened to Tess or any talk about the guns and weapons that were originally promised to him, the whole reason he accepted the job to transport Ellie to begin with.
It’s the same as rabies, you have to study the brain itself. The doctor clearly mentioned the infection is in her brain stem, that stake was clearly established
I'm biased because I'm the type of selfish to choose my kid over the rest of humanity, but even without the personal angle the Fireflies were stupid about this. They think there's a cure in Ellie's genes? They should be trying to propagate them then. At a bare minimum they should have been harvesting her eggs, fertilizing them, and implanting the embryos in women they consider expendable. If her kids are immune- great! They've got more immune people! If they aren't immune, now they know, and they've made more future Fireflies. Win win. It's morally questionable, but I don't think the Fireflies care about that. And killing her immediately damages their ability to harvest any other tissue later on. Once she's dead that's it. Her systems shut down- no new samples. Any tests can only be performed with what they got from a single harvest, and her corpse. It's wasteful, even if we take it at face value that they /could/ have made a cure/vaccine. And I'm with you, that it doesn't seem likely in those working conditions. In short, they're stupid, wasteful, and short-sighted. I suspect if the Fireflies had a goose that laid golden eggs, they'd probably kill the goose to figure out where the eggs came from.
i know the game can be good sometimes just like kids these days cant do anything and it is a lot like communism, a great idea in theory but rarely translates in practice. if you connect the dots then we begin to see a strange pattern just like the infamous night stand
Ya. Sometimes i do that with shows too. I just pretend the other seasons dont exist. The show heros was like that for me. Season one is a complete story and extremely good. The rest of the seasons are hot garbage.
Part 2 was very cinematographic and had great athmosphere, but I will never forgive how they killed or ruined all the great characters. Joel, Tommy, Ellie and even Jesse made the game more enjoyable, but not for long.
While it is easy to capitalize on the greatness of TLOU, and eat off of it…. Dawg…. This analysis was fantastic. Truly in depth and thoughtful. This is G4 tech tv worthy man. Truly well done. 👌🏾
The last of us was a game that my dad bought me, and I played both of them with him he's not my real dad, but blood doesn't mean anything those games will always live in my heart and be a beautiful memorie when I won't have my dad anymore
The trolley dilemma the first game presents is deceptive. This is by design in the first game. On the surface, it wants you to ask yourself if it is worth sacrificing the few for the many, but with the details presented by the game, you can zoom out and see the fork in the trolley won't save the five, you just add two more. Instead of five dying, it becomes seven. This is because the alternative to saving Ellie is Joel being released in the wilderness with nothing to protect himself with if not outright killed by the fireflies now that he had outlived his usefulness to them. If Joel had died then and there, would players have said that he had it coming? I would say no because the Joel we are shown is not necessarily a good person, but he's also not irredeemable and by the time he died he clearly did redeem himself. He's a loving father to Ellie, a respected member of his community whose first instinct upon seeing Abby in danger was to help her, and his actions to save Ellie were shown to be the right decision as shown by how the Fireflies in the first game were little more than terrorists who were almost just as disliked as FEDRA was. I find it hard to see Abby as the avenue through which any sort of punishment should be dealt because her reasons for going after Joel was he killed her father, a man who was extremely close to killing a child despite not needing to kill her. And Joel's supposed death that he had coming was because he didn't buy into the Fireflies BS with Ellie. Not to mention the game strongly implies that he was likely going to get a bullet in his head or be left to the infected/bandits now that he has outgrown his usefulness to the Fireflies. It implies that the punishment for not accepting death like a good little tool is...death.
The villain of the story is the fireflies for lying and not telling Ellie and Joel that she is going to die from the procedure before they did it. They only told Joel because they thought they could force him out. And maybe Ellie is partially a villain for taking it out on Joel for the fireflies lies.
Exactly! What makes it worse is that there was strong possibility that they could've gotten what they wanted by being more honest and direct. If Ellie really wanted to die for the sake of a cure then they could've just woken her up and asked her with Joel present. If she had yes then that's it, he couldn't have gone out guns blazing and save her against her will but no, lets leave her unconscious and try to convince Joel it's what she'd want because that will go down smoothly.
My friends and I have argued about this for years. My one friend said Joel was being selfish and I argued that even if the fireflys made a cure that they don’t have the logistics to spread it. I’m glad I’m seeing this argument echoed. Not trying to say Joel is a saint but I would’ve done the same thing.
One detail the video overlooked is that Ellie and Joel made future plans for after their hospital visit. This strongly suggests to me that dying wasn't on Ellie's mind when going to that hospital so I'm doubtful that Ellie would choose to die for the vaccine so confidently as Marlene makes it seem(I'm 50/50 on it seeing how much she cares for Joel). I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want to just leave Joel without at least saying good bye considering all they've been through and knowing how much losing Sarah affected him, Ellie wouldn't want to visit that pain on Joel again by cutting him out of her life like that IMO. In that sense I'm sure Ellie would not want the operation to continue under the conditions we see in the game. Also the issue if the Fireflies ever could make a vaccine is vital to the morality of Joel's choice since is that's the difference between Joel dooming the world or Joel saving Ellie from delusional child killers. IMO there's not enough in either game so show the Fireflies had a shot at making a vaccine(ignoring if they could ever produce enough, distribute it, defend it, use if for good and hand it out "fairly"). I'm with you that Joel probably didn't care for curing the world but in the end he still did the right thing, stopping the immoral actions of the Fireflies even though his reasoning isn't all that "pure".
Yes true but what bothers me is that part 2 says Joel was definitely wrong, that ellie wanted to die in the hospital and that the fireflies would have saved the world if it weren't for Joel. Part 2 isn't particularly deep, it's just trying to say 'Abby had her reasons'.
@@Aeneiden It's not that she WANTED to, it's that she WOULD have if she'd known that people thought she needed to. She was making plans for after the hospital cause to that point her death hadn't been indicated or talked about. The Fireflies biggest mistake was not even asking her consent. She WOULD have agreed and probably was the only person in the world capable of convincing Joel to let it happen. Instead they tried to be sneaky about it and paid the price. I think anyone who honestly thinks Ellie would have said 'nah fuck the world' after all her 'it can't be for nothing' stuff... We can agree or dissagree with if Joel was justified or not... but we can pretty well surmise who Ellie was and what she'd have done.
God, 15:53 gets me every time. In my interpretation (before the sequel), Ellie clearly knows that Joel is telling her a lie (even if she doesn’t know the exact specifics), and she’s having trouble accepting the magnitude of the lie and what it means for her life and the lives of all their friends who died. By asking Joel to swear it’s all true, she’s basically giving him one final chance to come clean, knowing that if he doesn’t take it, then she trusts that as her “father” he ultimately knows best and if he’s so adamant about this that he’s willing to outright lie to her face, then it must be for a good reason and she’ll just have to eventually also come to terms with it and try to live a “normal” life. I’m ranting lol but ultimately it’s a great interpretation because to me it shows that even if somethiing is objectively wrong, she’s willing to go along with it out of love and respect for Joel.
Unless I misunderstood or I remember incorrectly, they even told Joel that if they did go ahead and take Ellie’s life there was a very slim chance of making any progress at all towards a cure. The most likely outcome was that Ellie would die and it wouldn’t have made any difference at all, they’d have been no closer to a cure. That sealed it for me.
I always said this I would’ve done the same thing Joel did but you have to live with the consequences that come after this moment. Eventually someone gonna come and knock on your doorstep.
@@thomasblanks2842 Game wise, sure? But realistically no… That doctor was going to stab someone, he had a choice to back down, but instead decided to attempt to kill. If someone has a knife, even if you have a gun, you do not have much time to realistically react if they charge you, especially if they are close. You will win the encounter most of the time, but they will at least get one stab in, within a set distance.
She couldn't consent to the surgery because she was unconscious and a minor. Besides, vaccines for fungal infections are impossible anyway. Vaccines are also preventative, so everyone who was infected already was doomed. So yes, Joel was completely right to save her. Why is this so hard to understand?
I’ve never understood why there was any discussion about Joel’s choice. It was the right choice for Joel, but it may have been the wrong choice for all the people who could be saved by a cure (let’s ignore whether or not the cure would have worked, since either way it wouldn’t have changed Joel’s decision). Or take Abby for example. Joel may have killed her dad to save Ellie, but later on Ellie actually saves Abby’s life from the rattlers, so was his decision right or wrong for Abby? It’s a lot more complicated than that, but regardless of right or wrong we understand Joel’s decision because we know what he’s been through and how he feels.
This is why I personally hate the sequel. The game makes you believe that Ellie was just the cure of the world. But realistically, the Fireflies's plan would have never worked. They would have never created a vaccine from Ellie’s immunity. They would have just murdered a child over a flimsy chance. And even if by some miracle that they did, it would be too late. The world is too far gone to be restored, and the Fireflies would have just keep the cure for themselves.
The first game was a story of hope and optimism. It showed the best of humanity through Joel and Ellie’s relationship, Ellies’ existence in itself showed that humanity would be just fine. This is what makes the tonal shift from the first to the second game so heartbreaking. It showed the worst of humanity using the same characters and taking away the happily ever after we feel they deserve. Personally I wish the second game just didn’t exist, it tried so hard to be a lecture on how shitty people are when it really just reflected on the writers negative outlook on humanity while also shitting on these characters.
@@ThaKingJay If that is true then why continue to exist at all? The sequel is merely the outlook on life of the childless progressive weirdos in the writers room.
Strongest possible disagree. But I think you’ve hit the nail on the head expecting a ‘happily ever after’ ending. P2 critics typically missed the point of the ending of p1 completely and have some weird ability to accept narratives other than ‘main man = hero’.
I dont see how the second game isnt also a story of hope and optimism. It's about overcoming grief and being able to make peace with the past through love and family. There's a reason it ends with Ellie letting Abby go, she picks the good option. She doesn't get a happily ever after because that's not life, but she gets the next best thing: Another chance to be better.
@@PastelN01r the kind of person who thinks that part 1 has a happy ending is the kind of person who sees no hope in pt 2. But they are both a complex mix of different tones and people give themselves away when they see them in such reductive terms.
Mentioning the trolley problem at the start actually made me think about the reaction players had vs what the writers of TLOU2 seemed to have had. The players connected with Joel. The writers of TLOU2 didn't, and so they considered it morally correct to kill him. At least that seems to be what happened IMO.
@@lustrazor44 Druckmann? Yes. But if I recall correctly, Bruce Straley was the head writer for TLOU1. Druckmann worked in an assisting role. TLOU2 is his baby, borne from an idea he'd had floating around since his college days. Haley Gross I suspect was hired on to flesh it out.
@@stevenguitink5947 bruce was the game director he focused on gameplay and how that meshes with story neil was the creative director he focused on where the story is going, together they made the masterpiece that is TLOU 1. TLOU is neil's baby from the outset bruce helped him with the vision but neil birthed the game. He was the head...
@@slickstar96 Not quite. The original poster underplayed how little Neil was involved in the first game. Dive into the GDD or interviews prior to development of TLOU2 and it's no end of "Neil said this, we said no" to where it's hard to say what, if anything, he suggested made it into the first game. Case in point: Neil Druckmann's original plan for TLOU was for it to be entirely about a revenge story centering around Tess hunting Joel. *What happened in the sequel?* Y'know, the sequel that he had full control over. The sequel nobody's arguing he wrote. The lie that he had anything to do with the first game is entirely derived from his name attached to the credits, and hoping nobody would dive into his career. Y"know, appealing to people who've done so little research they've only heard about the Tess hunts Joel plot now, despite it being a point of contention since TLOU2 's plot was leaked.
@crazyinsane500 The father and daughter concept came from neil. It was born from an idea he had in uni in a project he was doing. Sure, he wanted to have a revenge story included in it. Sure, he at one point wanted it to be a virus that effects solely women but he listened to feedback from his team and realised that was not right move then he went back to the drawing board and came up with the story for TLOU with the help of bruce with the gameplay. Underlying facts without neil, there is no TLOU because there would be no concept to go on if it wasn't for neil. Remember ND before TLOU idea were working on a real-life jak and daxter, which most likely would have soured the franchise because it would not be the same.
8:24 it’s not even a cure, just a vaccine against the bites, but that doesn’t stop you from getting teared apart by the zombies which is what happens in the games instead of just a bite
I just want to say: Thank you, for this video. It is just everything. Finally someone that feels and thinks exactly like me about all of these aspects. I love these games so so so much and they are easily my Top 1 and will be probably for... forever.
At 14:30, Joel sharing there were others is not a particularly a lie. Through gameplay you can find notes and doctor journal entries showing there are other patients who were immune but all attempts have failed. Not only does he want to protect her as a father figure, but he’s not going to let her death be for a “chance” or just another experiment.
@@arislekabileyes. I just played through the game for the first time a few days ago, and got somewhat addicted to finding the collectibles. The “collectibles,” in question aren’t actually collectible, as this particular note is one of the few that you actually set back down after reading it. I remember it being 11 or 12 immune subjects they had tried to operate on, all of which failed.
Some massively solid analysis, my friend. Just finished my second playthrough of both games, and while I still think there's some problematic gameplay / design choices in Part 2, this has added a bunch of perspectives I hadn't considered. Big props.
the scene where they go to the museum and she listens to the apollo launch? yeah i cry so hard every time. he just genuinely wants to be a dad and takes interest in what she likes and goes out of his way to make her happy
![The Last of Us Part 1 Full Movie [4k 60fps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SRdviLnmeMQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Last of Us Part 1 Full Movie [4k 60fps]](/img/tr.png)
Consent is everything. On my first play through, I couldn’t escape how unethical it was that they kept Ellie unconscious and refused to inform her that this experimental procedure would end her life. ‘It’s what she would’ve wanted’ is bullshit when they are the people denying her that choice. Ellie believed she would live through it when she says to Joel ‘After we’re finished with the fireflies, we can go wherever you want’. They were murdering a child and we’re supposed to condemn her adopted dad for trying to stop them
Thank you!
Yes, exactly.
I agree, most people on the other side, cant seem to understand that part.
Ellie was never going to be given a choice once she went to the fireflies. Even if she said she didn’t want to they would have strapped her down and did it anyway, for the good of humanity
Consent is overrated
A medical professional actually said that even he wouldn't sacrifice Ellie since she didn't really need to die, especially taking in the fact that she's literally the sole chance of a cure so that means she NEEDS to be kept alive for research. This just shows how the Fireflies felt backed into a corner and has lost their sense of meaning and purpose for their original cause.
Correct even a basic medical professional would tell you is need blood and tissue samples not by popping out someone brain killing the host the mutation would be in the DNA blood and skin cells
yeah 0 time studying her is another huge miscue here, and further justification for Joel not having it
Because naughty dog love to put thorn in story, i mean look at TLOU 2 they put thorn in every corner because they're high and mighty when the flower(TLOU 1) bloom
I think even with keeping her alive for research, they wouldn't be able to make a vaccine, I mean the world kinda stopped at 2013, and I don't think that with that technology they could make a cure, even now in 2024 is pretty hard to do one related to fungis (I'm sorry if there are any grammar errors, this is not my first language)
I think the fireflies were never noble. FatBrett has videos explaining the hypocrisy of the Fireflies.
Any doctor that would willfully kill the ONLY known survivor of an otherwise deadly infection is not only guilty of medical malpractice, but shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a scalpel.
The dad doctor is the same doctor who liked to change people up in Bioshock.
It's not a doctor, it's some half-educated butcher apprentice. Seriously, if only way he can extract that tissue around Ellie's brain is by butchering her, he is an incompetent idiot and given previous failed experiments he made, a child-murderer. Hell, now that I think about it, the second game is probably one of the few (if not only) work that wants us to sympathise with child-murderer.
Thank you! It feels so unethical to put your only chance of a cure STRAIGHT into a LETHAL surgery without even testing or studying her first!!
It's not even just that he's doing something that will be fatal to the only known case of immunity they've encountered, but that performing a fatal operation is literally the first and only option they ever even suggest. They don't even CONSIDER performing any other kinds of tests in an effort to study how her immunity works. No brain biopsy, no blood work, no other tests of any kind. They just leap straight into the all-or-nothing option that they'll only have a single opportunity to get right. You don't take the only possible source for a cure and/or vaccine to a disease that has otherwise had a 100% infection and mortality rate and risk it on a complete gamble that could cost your only source of research without even TRYING any of the plethora of non-fatal tests options you could attempt.
Even if we completely put aside the ethical question of Ellie's inability to consent due to them prepping her before she regained consciousness, it's a completely asinine decision in purely pragmatic terms.
I also don't know why they needed a cure so quickly. Sure people are dying everyday but they'd be dying even if Ellie had her brain carved up. Spend the time studying and exhausting any other option. Why do they need to get to studying the brain raw So quickly? Like Its not gonna be so fun when the brain sample gets destroyed because a scientist got mad or the place was overrun, or like the fireflies lose it or it gets ruined in some way.
"Ellie doesn't owe humanity her life." Exactly. That's it. That's all you need to say. That's all the argument there is- simply that.
No. You're right that Ellie doesn't owe humanity her life. That's true. But.... suppose Ellie WANTED to sacrifice herself? Now what?
@@CHamlin86 Like it was stated she never truly got to experience a life where she could be happy or have peace with friends and family she was only exposed to horrors and trauma that trauma led her to believe she should sacrifice herself for the people that died and she had a chance to save others who suffered the same fate as people she cared about this was also because her immunity didn't allow her to suffer the same fate which made her feel guilty but that immunity was something that was completely accidental and could have happened to anyone that isn't right for her to decide she doesn't deserve to live if she can save others if she dies that is completely wrong and may I ask you this if your daughter or son were in the same position would you really give up there lives even if it is against their wishes to save them think long and hard you have raised this child you have formed such a strong bond and they say they will throw their life away for the sake of humanity would you really be able to live with that
@@CHamlin86 her sacrifice would be useless. theres many comments going over the impropability of a cure, but lets say the fireflies actually make it. now who are they gonna administer it to? their own members, and then who, survivor and raider groups, one as derange as the other, some starting to leverage it in markets to just become more powerful, a cure would not fix humanity, it would slightly help, and thats all. as for all the reasons a cure can NOT be made, among other things, here, copied directly from another comment:
- The Fireflies did NOT have the expert they needed, he died. Neil Druckman retconned that in the sequel and he admitted that he always wanted Joel to die in the original but was denied by the first games Director.
- The Fireflies had ZERO capability of manufacturing a cure as they did not have the materials, nor the supplies, nor the equipment, nor the know how, nor the personnel. People don't realize what is required to make a vaccine. The Fireflies had NONE of it.
- The game established that the disease was fungal in nature. You CAN'T make a vaccine against a fungal infection, its NOT possible.
- The Fireflies erroneously thought that Ellie needed to have her brain diced up to find a cure. That's NOT how cures work. Its like thinking that you can fix an engine with a hammer. It doesn't work that way.
- Ellie HAD a cure within herself...Ellie has the ability to pass on her immunity through her offspring (children). That was a far more realistic & tangible cure and by killing her erases this possibility and it pisses me off that nobody considers this.
- Ellie was like 14 years old during the events in the first game. In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?
@@aussieroo5115 There is no punctuation at all in this wall of text and I can't read it.
@@blu4390 You are completely missing the point with all of this. Putting up all these medical and logistical barriers as to why a cure wouldn't work or couldn't work is completely missing the point of the narrative. The narrative isn't about the viability of the cure, it's about Joel's and Fireflies' actions. It was meant to demonstrate that neither side was right because they both denied Ellie the choice. It's a Socratic exercise: suppose a cure was completely viable and could save humanity. Suppose Ellie had to die to create this cure. Is it moral to kill her if she did not want to make that sacrifice? Is it moral to save her if she DID want that sacrifice? This is what the ending of the game is trying to explore, but so many are just caught up in loving Joel and they can't refuse to accept the fact that he made a selfish immoral decision at the end of the game.
"In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?"
A fictional one. This is a video game...
I swear everyone forgets the recording where it states this surgery has a 90% failure rate. Meaning Ellie would have died for nothing.
Retcons tend to have the effect of making people forget that they are retcons. I think it's mostly a case of people just taking them at face value and not going back to see what changed
Ok so I’m not crazy I swear in the original game I found a recording that said that in the hospital. But people kept saying i was capping. Then No matter were I looked in the remaster I couldn’t find it anymore.
That's because it was removed. Any of the beautiful nuance was removed in Part 2 which is why it's so dog water which is why the Part 1 remake reconned some stuff that relates to Part 2. Even if there is a sliver of goodness from Part 2, like the gameplay and the Joel and Ellie segments, the majority of the product is pure asinine@@ToxicVex267
@@ToxicVex267 you mean the remaster on PS4 or the remake on PS5 ? And when you talk about the original game you mean the PS3 version, right ?
Top that off with the fact that the Cordyceps virus isn't a _virus_ , but a _fungus_ , meaning any chance of creating a vaccine would be doomed to fail.
I also love Joel's quote with the "I would do it all over again" Because who hasn't played TLOU again and again. We've all done the same thing for Ellie again and again because we saw the relationship they had, we lived through their best and worst moments and we do it all over again.
I only played it once.
@@MrBazBakePlay it again dude, play the original PS3 version if you can.
They're are different collectibles and other neat details.
In my opinion, it really doesn't matter if he made the right choice. Because the game is about an individuals experiences. Its about Joels wants, not what you, I, or the other characters would want to do. Joel didn't have a choice when his daughter died, but with Ellie he does, and he he just doesn't want to feel the lose.
I think there is a time and a place for the needs of the many vs the needs of a few argument, but The Last Of Us has other priorities.
Edit: plus, I think the Trolly dillema is too simplistic. The point is to save *as many as possible* and many of these situations could likely be bent to save as many as possible, including the supposed one you must sacrifice.
I played the first one at least 30 times over even did grounded mode I tried to play the second one again and I just couldn't losing Joel hurt too much and I hate playing as abby
In my case I had to do it over and over again.....damn I died a lot
It really annoys me when people say Joel was a killer and got what was coming to him when he LIVES in a world full of zombies and killers. You wouldn’t be a nice guy in that situation everything he did was for his loved one or because he had to do it
Edit: a lot of people came with different opinions and respected mines while I respect theirs a lot of people give complying reasons on why they think the way they do and I love seeing a game from a decade ago still get talked about with so many ideas. I do get the weirdos who just say “ JOeL bad ANd KiLLeR” but seriously respect to the people who genuinely have good arguments
Yep! People have forgotten to take off the rose tinted glasses of our world and look at it through the lens of the last of us. People die in that game for a lot less.
So let me get this straight, you are saying that people like Joel who robbed people, tortured and killed innocent doesn’t deserve to die because there are also bad people in this world?
@@Messier_-82 I’m saying he had to do what he had to do to survive in this kinda world. Ellie killed thousands of people just for the sake of revenge do we think she’s a bad person. No we don’t because we see it in her view. Same with Joel
@@Messier_-82 Little fella you over shot hard especially that's your take away from OPs post.
@@Messier_-82 and no Joel didn’t torture a innocent person the guy he tortured was one of the guys who took ellie then almost every one he did kill tried killing him first he didn’t just walk into a town and started shooting up the place
i always think about what Troy Baker said regarding Joel’s choice - “And I have a son, and I don’t know what I would look like if I lost him. But I do know that if I had the opportunity to save him I would do anything. I would do anything to save him. So people have asked me, why would Joel do that when he could have saved the world, and my answer to them is always this - he did, he did save the world. It’s just that the world was that girl, and that’s it.”
Yeah, he was right for a lot of other reasons but that right there is everything to me. You think my mom would let me die to save humanity? No, because WHAT is humanity worth if her daughter isn’t in it?
Joel was justified in saving Ellie.
He was NOT justified in butchering so many Fireflies needlessly in his effort to save Ellie.
Likewise, Abby and her Friends were as just as justified to pursue Joel in order to make him fully accountable for the needless killings he committed.
@@Wasserkaktusthat's such a massive cope, if you have to kill someone to save someone you love and it's not because that person did something wrong so they need to be saved from punishment, then anyone killed that way was allowing evil to be done, Joel could have killed a million fireflys, wouldn't have made his actions any less right
@@calebbarnhouse496 And apparently you can't realize the exact logic you applied to Joel EQUALLY applies to Abby too: Her father was brutally killed by Joel, and even when you play the first game, you even see that Joel absolutely did NOT have to kill her Father: Joel could have easily incapacitated him and the other doctors, taken Ellie, and just run off.
How does your logic apply to one party, and not the other? Explain this.
@@Wasserkaktus I wouldn't say that. The Fireflies would have killed Joel behind Marlene's back or would have tried to stop Joel from taking Ellie. So Joel had no choice but to kill the Fireflies either way for self defense or to save Ellie. As for the surgeons/Abby's father even if you try to spared them (since they don't have guns) Abby's father tries to kill Joel to prevent Ellie from leaving and since Joel didn't have time to incapacitated (story wise not gameplay wise) he just killed them.
As for Abby's and her friends being justified with killing Joel you are completely right. However the way they did kill Joel isn't. Joel kills with efficiency he doesn't prolong his target's suffering unless he needs information.
@@Wasserkaktus everyone he killed threatened his and ellies lives. marlene pointed a gun at him, the surgeon who was going to murder a 14 year old, held a scalpel against joel. he HAD to kill them. there was no needless deaths, even though it'd be justifiable.
Problem to the "Trolley-Problem" at the beginning:
The Cordyceps-Virus wasn't even a virus, it was a fungus. Meaning there wouldn't have been a vaccine to be made out of her "immune" cells, because Ellie wasn't even immune.
She was just, well, lucky, because when she got infected, the fungus did not take over Ellie's brain. You could say, it was like a "benign tumor" or some sort of symbiosis: Her brain remains fully functional and the fungus doesn't spread over her body, while the fungus prevents her from becoming infected again.
There is no recreating that, and there never was a need to kill her to "study her brain".
Your comment is correct and I agree but it’s called suspension of disbelief
@@coreyrogers4819 And I'm all in for that!
@@coreyrogers4819 Suspension of disbelief is not suspension of intellect. The developers hired experts in their field to add authenticity to this doomsday scenario. They're not going to toss all of that effort right at the end of the game.
These simple facts, coupled with the obvious delusions and incompetence present in the surgeon's own notes in the first game, are there to show you the cure wasn't ever really an option. The end game scenario isn't Joel putting Ellie ahaead of the rest of the world, it's Joel stopping a terrorist death cult making a human sacrifice because they believe the gods will surely reward them with a cure if they do.
Not when they went out of their way to make this as realistic as possible. They moment they did that was the moment Suspension of Disbelief went out the window. @@coreyrogers4819
Fr, and at most they could attempt to recreate it and create a new race of humans
Okay…. With Marlene saying Joel has no idea what she’s been through is insensitive to me. He was there from the time his biological daughter was born and held her in his arms as she died and he was about to lose Ellie who was like a 2nd daughter to him. So it’s like he’d be losing a daughter twice
Pissing competitions involving trauma are always going to be insensitive. Joel telling Ellie that she didn't know what loss was when Ellie brought up Sarah was insensitive as heccc
Marlene raised Ellie from birth to 14. Joel was with Ellie for roughly a year… Marlene doesn’t know the specifics of Joel’s past. It’s a reasonable statement from Marlene, albeit insensitive.
@@cheesebasedMarlene didn’t raise Ellie until 14. She probably took care of Ellie after her birth/Anna’s death, but it was most likely for a short while. Ellie grew up in a military school which Marlene placed her in. Marlene did not have an active role in raising Ellie.
@@theblackcatgirl7013Ellie isn’t a parent that lost a child.
@@bitethebook7650yes but Ellie never knew her mom, grew up in shitty military school, struggled with her sexuality about liking her best friend Riley whom she had JUST gotten confirmation that Riley liked her back, only to then lose her immediately to infected. And then because Ellie was also bitten, had to stay and watch Riley transform while she had no changes whatsoever because of her unknown immunity. She also ended up killing Riley when Riley turned and she didn’t. And then she respected Tess during their brief time together, but that was cut short. Then the whole Sam and Henry thing was tough on her as well. At the end of the first game she tells Joel all of this and how it weighs on her. So yes Ellie had not lost a child, but she’s been through her own shit at a young age during impressionable developmental years.
A few things...
- The Fireflies did NOT have the expert they needed, he died. Neil Druckman retconned that in the sequel and he admitted that he always wanted Joel to die in the original but was denied by the first games Director.
- The Fireflies had ZERO capability of manufacturing a cure as they did not have the materials, nor the supplies, nor the equipment, nor the know how, nor the personnel. People don't realize what is required to make a vaccine. The Fireflies had NONE of it.
- The game established that the disease was fungal in nature. You CAN'T make a vaccine against a fungal infection, its NOT possible.
- The Fireflies erroneously thought that Ellie needed to have her brain diced up to find a cure. That's NOT how cures work. Its like thinking that you can fix an engine with a hammer. It doesn't work that way.
- Ellie HAD a cure within herself...Ellie has the ability to pass on her immunity through her offspring (children). That was a far more realistic & tangible cure and by killing her erases this possibility and it pisses me off that nobody considers this.
- Ellie was like 14 years old during the events in the first game. In what universe is a 14 allowed to make life ending decisions?
Literally just harvest antibodies from Ellie and clone those antibodies. Tech that exists TODAY and is RELATIVELY simple to do.
It's why the first Covid cures focused on harvesting antibodies from people who already went through it. Then the vaccine came later.
The first point is somthing I'll write about at the end
- So long as they could make a small number of their cure it likely wouldn't be difficult to the aquire the manpower and material necessary to produce it on a large scale
- Fungal diseases also don't function like they do in the game so there's enough creative leeway that a vaccine style cure to such an infection isn't impossible, equally it could be that the term vaccine isn't perfectly accurate but that a cure is still within the realms of possibility
- Essentially a repeat of the pervious point, while it may not be how it would function in perfectly accurate reality it's somthing that I do believe would probably work in the game's own world
- It's certainly a possibility that she could pass on the cure to her descendants and likely something worth considering although it doesn't present any sort of wide scale solution to the infection
- While yes 14 year olds aren't to be trusted with such important decisions it was more so a decision of the Fireflies against the decision of Joel
Now for my words on the first point as well as a summery of what I'm getting at. Which is that I believe the Fireflies have to be right about the cure and be able to create it for the choice Joel makes to hold the weight it does, him choosing Ellie over the cure means nothing if there is no cure. The choice matters and is impactful precisely because it isn't the objectively utterly good one if it was then the whole thing becomes pretty hollow
@@Sylas_TAC The entire plot is hollow, and just wrong. It's terrorist-supported doctors attempting to mutilate the brain of a child as if that is how you actually make a cure, as POINTED OUT by the OP?
They have no justification for what they are doing. Neither vaccines nor cures are made by dissembling someone's brain and somehow plucking out the answer from the result. They are made by using white blood cells from the immune to interact with dead infectious cells until the WBCs consistently manage to destroy the infectious cells. Then you take a mixture of that solution and inject the population.
The game trying to somehow point out that Joel "ended the world's hope of survival" is entirely unfounded as proven by LOU 2. There are dozens of communities across the country, not speaking to the entire WORLD, who thrive in these post-apocalyptic conditions and have managed to bulk out their areas of humanity with relative success. Joel's effects upon the country were effectively zero, as evidenced.
Passing on her immunity to descendants is ABSOLUTELY something that would have been viable, because it would have meant (from a pragmatic and soulless perspective) more subjects to perform experiments upon to find a viable vaccine.
Also, as POINTED OUT, the Fireflies had no means of actually mass-producing the vaccine and giving it to the rest of humanity. They do not have the transportation, the infrastructure, the supply chain, the manpower, the equipment and so on.
This entire bullshit plan was made by a fringe group of pseudo-moralist terrorists who, in their last dying days, attempted to enact some psychopathic 'cure' by pouring their resources into abducting a 14-year-old and operating on her to cause her death and somehow extract a cure from her brain. It is far more disgusting of a moral concept than the people who simply loot and kill others to survive, because at least in those instances it's reasonable and in-line with what people would do IRL.
There was no retcon.
Druckmann also desperately wanted a revenge story in TLOU1 but was denied several times by the games other director. Fast forward to him becoming President of Naughty Dog and he conjures up a revenge story for TLOU2 and then goes in to TLOU1 HBO show and shoe horns in another revenge story that was never in the game.
Ellie's "Okay" at the end always gets me. You can hear the "I don't believe you, but I'll drop it" in her voice.
There is no way in hell you can allow a literal child with survivors guilt to make decision to end her own life. That is extremely morally wrong and in completely illegal in most countries as well.
There is no country, there are no laws, there is no hope for humanity in that world.
THATS THE POINT!!!
You’re all talking as if your 1st world comfortable world’s laws should bind a world where literal monsters are winning a war of attrition against our species when breaking one of those laws could potentially win that war.
I agree with you but I'm not sure if country law applied to people in a post-apocalyptic world.
We are not talking about laws per se, but the morals of the actions. A goal of the Fireflies is to return to a safe but also democratic/free society again.But are they going to sacrifice those same values in an attempt to get there?@@daviddreyton8586
My favorite quote about the immunity was from Tess where she said “you’re not immune from being ripped apart” sure the vaccine would keep bites from being lethal but there’s still the very possible danger of being totally outnumbered by infected so the positives would barely be noticeable, they will not stop trying to kill you vaccine or not.
True but we have multiple characters in the first game die simply to a bite
If people were immune, they could reclaim areas more safely and a few infected getting into an area wouldn't be a death sentence for that community
For example, the sewer community we see in part 1
From Ellie's pov, I think if a vaccine saved just one child it'd be worth it. Just because it wouldn't make them invincible doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth it.
Not to mention that arguably humans are now the real threat, more so than the infected. A vaccine wont help you from raiders.
This is such a stupid argument like yeah but at least if you just get bit or scratched by one it isnt a fucking death sentence
@xa-12musk28 agree
Why does no one bring up the audio log of Marlene saying that they were going to kill Joel in the first game. Am I the only one who found that?
Plus they walked by his stuff, so they never intended on fulfilling their words. All the more reason to distrust the Fireflies
@@wolfidessdragondol Persesly. Joel HAD no choice but to fight his way out. At that point you may as well make a quick pit stop and take Ellie.
I found her recording as well. There's 2 of them. Actually I can't remember which one goes into the whole chat about. The fireflies wanting to kill joel. But yeah Joel didn't have a choice and I would have done the same thing in his shoes.
@@grimmeclipse2605I don’t think they were gonna kill joel, the recording says they wanted too but she decided against it. Also handled the same in the tv show.
@@shadowlilmanSo someone walks up to you with a gun says I’m gonna kill you. Then they’re like ehh nvm. You’re gonna trust them after that?
I don’t need to watch a 41 minute video to know Joel was right. He’s always right
In TLOU Part 2 it was revealed Marlene originally didn't want Ellie to go through with the surgery if it meant her life had to be sacrificed but eventually gave in when Abbys father convinced her. Also the Fireflies are terrorists I highly doubt if the cure was successful they would use it for the good of mankind but only for their own benefit whether its to give to their own people or sell it to help finance their organization
They were already shown to be liars when they told Joel he could get his stuff back and his reward for transporting Ellie, but as they were walking Joel out, they skipped by his stuff with no mention of it, showing they had no intention of fulfilling their words to Joel and were most likely planning on getting rid of him to keep the cure a secret and Joel obviously caught on to that
@@wolfidessdragondol
You missed the part of Joel making threats. Why on earth would they give his guns back at that moment.
@lucca2165 Because that was the deal?? At the least you could meet your end of the bargain???
The problem with this argument is the fact that there's no second game. The Last of Us is a single game, why do people keep pretending there's a sequel out there?
@@Zathrenare u joking or stupid
Prople often overlook how the moment Joel escaped a gun in his back, the entire Firefly force, wearing body armor and helmets and assault rifles (the same as the guy who stole Sarah from him 20 years earlier), came running toward him and never offered so much as a "surrender".
To be fair, Joel was killing their guys. Kinda hard to offer surrender and forget all about it.
@FraserSouris that was before joel killed them tho? after marlene talked to joel and told him about ellie's fate, marlene told a firefly to escort him out and the soldier was literally pointing a gun at him and marlene didnt seem to give joel his stuff back nor the promised guns and "then some" from what is said at the start of the game? i think thats what op meant? i think idk im dumb
@@sodapopworks550 The guns were lost on the way to the hospital. Originally they were supposed to meet in the capital building. The deal ended when the fireflies at the capital were killed.
Also, lets not forget the recording at the hospital that Joel finds that says the Fireflies really had no intention of letting Joel go and were going to kill him. Joel's biggest mistake was lying and continuing to lie to Ellie.
Yes and no Originally the fireflies did want to kill him. But marlene gave the orders not to do it because he would understand what she is going through
@@valjamworm3980 Correct. She did give orders not to but my point was originally they had no intention of keeping him alive.
@@valjamworm3980it does show who they are
@@Arctis326 And how many people did the fireflies murdered in there terrorist attacks in government safe zones?
@@brandonlyon730 and? They’re all murderers. And at the end of the day, Joel got what he deserved.
Video title: Joel Was Right
Everyone who played the first game and understood the story: Yeah we know.
no you dont
@@kamilszczęsny-m9d
Kid go to bed
@@kamilszczęsny-m9dyes they do
It's One of The Main Reasons why I always supported Joel's Decision on The First LoU. Of all The Adults that came across Ellie's life.. Joel was The Only one who sought out what was best for her. As a Parent.
why do you capitalize certain words for no reason
@@__ezra emphasize the importance of The Word.
@@DavidMyrmidon thats not really how it works
@@__ezra yeah, well.. idgas
@@DavidMyrmidon you are such a loser dawg
My biggest gripe with the whole Firefly cure plan is the logistics of it. Even if by some miracle a cure was developed, how the hell is one ragtag group of people that are actively being hunted by the last remnant of the government, that barely got across the country in the first place, going to distribute said vaccine. Were they going to walk into places like Pittsburgh, Seattle, or Santa Barbara, places we know are completely lost to people who are unable to return to a pre-Cordyceps world. The first city they walk into touting their cure, no one would believe them, and they'd most likely get brutally killed. Humanity had its chance, and there is no going back. The only thing a cure would have guaranteed is Ellie's death.
Agreed plus there is always the possibility of the Fireflies using the cure as way to gain control and power. Forcing people to join them if not they will be killed.
But people will tell you that "Neil said it would work so it would work" or "suspend your disbelief" no. That's not how it works. If their aim was to create a story where this cure could possibly be distributed and restore order, then they failed. But they didn't fail, because that was never their intention. Neil just retconned it so hard so that he could make his Part II without Bruce and Amy and others in the way.
Same. A "cure" means nothing if people like David walk around the country. You tell anybody you have the cure, nobody is gonna go back to how things were. No raider of cannibal is just gonna throw down their weapons and sing around the campfire. At that point Joel saw the absolute worst of humanity and just didn't care. He wasn't gonna lose another daughter on a slim "maybe"
And anyone who genuinely believes the fireflies would have just handed over that "cure" are crazy - as if they wouldn't try and use that to gain more power. Nevermind that if any Fedra were still around - they wouldn't have taken it from them in the first place, or would have foricbly taken it for their own gain.
If they had a cure, they could make a settlement that was immune. That meant that any survivor that joined the settlement could also get the cure. Which meant that they could expand into places vulnerable people couldn't. It isn't something on the level that can restore the civilization as it was, but it can mean a new feudal civilization where they have a cure and a monopoly and can force the peole that straggle into their settlement into servitude in exchange of a cure. They can be even more cruel and make a cure in the same style as the cure in Dead Rising, where you need a dose every so often, that way you have a 2 caste system, a group of immune people and another dependent on a fix.
People always bring up Joel as an example of a "morally grey" character, but when I first played through TLOU, nearly every decision he made seemed perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. TLOU2 attempts to retcon the fireflies into being a righteous, competent organization, but there's so much evidence in the first game proving otherwise.
Exactly!
No it does not.
@@whiskeycompany13 Sure, you f**.
TLOU2 doesn't attempt to retcon the fireflies part, there's just not much mentions of them. Abby views them in a positive light as she was a part of it, but she wouldn't really know how incompetent they were anyway, she was young and she has her head up her ass.
The remake of TLOU1 still paints them the same way. The only thing retconned was the difference between the military and FEDRA, all was just turned into fedra.
@@TerminatorZXY why do you have to mention that awful character that spoils the original
The TV show to me developed a question about Marlene - she found Ellie’s mom as she was dying, she took Ellie and saved her and then later discovered Ellie’s immunity. She could have put 2 and 2 together at that point and realised “if the mom is infected when the child is born, maybe that’s what creates an immunity response in the child”. We’ve seen the Fireflies be absolutely brutal and callous…it doesn’t seem out of their wheelhouse to perform experiments on pregnant women to recreate the same conditions. If Marlene had any suspicions about this, which I’m sure she must have since she vaguely knew the circumstances of Ellie’s birth, I feel like she would have shared those suspicions and lead the Fireflies down a path of extremely cruel experimentation. “The greater good” and all that. They’re not opposed to killing a child for the same reason. Not saying they SHOULD have done that, but I am saying I feel like those particular desperate people WOULD have done.
Honestly, what keeps Joel's decision from being a gray as it is both the Fireflies actions regarding finding the cure, and the state of humanity in TLOU2. The Fireflies aren't the noble medical unit they're built up as, and considering that even they're not certain if dissecting Ellie's brain will make a cure since she wasn't even their first subject, it makes them seem more incompetent and reckless than anything.
With the humanity's state. It's not as bad as it could have been. In fact, it seems that there are whole communties with food, shelter, and an electricity. All the conflict and pain that happened in the second game was out of revenge, not the natural dangers of the world. If they wanted to show how Joel's decision doomed mankind, they should have showed how much civilization has deteriorated between games.
Very good point about humanity's state in that world. It always baffles me when people say that Joel doomed humanity, when there's plenty of evidence pointing otherwise.
The fireflies are made out to be the group that will save humanity and bring us back to what we once were. But playing through the first game all I saw was a group of people that were way over their heads. And by the end I was with Joel on getting Ellie outta there but for different reasons. Mainly even if they made a vaccine I couldn’t trust them to properly handle the responsibility of keeping it safe. Plus even if they did make one the worlds already screwed and that wouldn’t get rid of all the infected running around. Not to mention if the fireflies do start sending out the vaccines to other communities what’s to stop a group with ill intentions from over running them and taking the vaccine for themselves since the fireflies have shown their not very smart when it comes to strategy and combat? Not to mention if the fungus was able to adapt from bugs to humans what’s to stop it from adapting to the vaccine as well and making Ellie’s sacrifice meaningless? Also even if they did SOMEHOW make it how would they go about dispersing it they’d have to travel all over the world.
@@magicmoonmonke Personally I don't think that the potential cure we could get from Ellie would work or not. Though I do doubt the fireflies capabilities to create a cure/vaccine as well as their intentions since they're kind of propped up as people who see themselves as mankind's last hope. Yet the way they act when Joel brings them Ellie is no better than the Fedra Soldiers at the beginning of the game. I think it's more fair to say that whether they could succeed is debatable, and to me that even more so justifies Joel's admittedly selfish actions. Who would be okay with risking a loved one for a "maybe?" Especially when the Fireflies are immediately jumping to cut Ellie's brain open without getting her expressed consent. What's the rush? Why couldn't they wait for her to wake up and verbalize her decision to through with it? Maybe because they feared she might not be okay with giving her life to save mankind? Sure, in hindsight with Part 2 we know now that she's okay with that. But that's after the fact, and who knows how she'd really respond at the prospect of giving her life when she's staring death in the face? Maybe she would have backed out when it's a real possibility that she would die.
Now though. If they had waited for her to wake up and she had given her consent. Then that would paint Joel in a much darker light. Because he'd be going against her wishes for his own selfishness. Or if she has refused and the Fireflies forced the issue, then they'd be the bad guys and Joel would be explicitly in the right to save her.
@@MrSupersonic2012 I can't call Joel completely unjustified, but to me without the extra info that proves the unreliability, Idk what I'd do in that situation but I feel it's wrong to be like "Well Joel was completely in the right" when it's still depicted as just rough, especially the surgeon, that bears consequences for the second game. I don't think he was right and some of.thr kills kinda felt extra (of course he pry doesn't want anybody calling for help or pulling something) but I can't blame him if that makes sense.
I think it's important to emphasise that it's not a cure, it's merely a vaccine, it only protects the rest of humanity from infection, it won't really change that much consiering the biggest source of death these days is raiers and being torn apart by clickers
From the beginning, Joel’s motivation and character was I cannot let/loose another child, regardless of the worldly circumstances. Even him saying “find someone else” was because he didn’t want to put a child in danger
Ignoring the fact that no one has ever been able to make a vaccine for a fungus, even before the collpase, the fireflies were acting in bad faith. Not only did they keep Ellie unconscious they tried to kill Joel for questioning their actions and they went back on the deal they originally offered him.
@@lrsb1678 In the game they were going to kill him, either by taking him out the back and shooting him or by kicking him out of their base with no gear. Either way, their intent was implicit.
@@lrsb1678 the game also points out that moral and her leadership is hanging by a thread, and the guy leading Joel out at gun point is the same guy who said to kill him.
He was 100% going to kill him.
@@lrsb1678 Play the game and pay attention to the collectables. It's all in there.
@@elitemook4234and the surgery had a 90% failure rate over 11 or 12 subjects. It was on one of the few papers you couldn’t actually take as a collectible, you set it back on the desk.
I never understood why they needed her entire brain to take a SAMPLE. A sample is taking a swab. A sample is filling a vile. A sample is taking a small amount, not the entire thing.
Legit, how many times has a brain surgery been performed where a small amount is removed, and the person is relatively fine after the fact. They didn't need to do a surgery that would kill her. If they only needed a sample, then taking enough to kill her was going way overboard. They were planning to merk a kid to get a sample that might have been useless to begin with.
And no one had the right to say "This is what Ellie would have wanted" when they hadn't even talked to the girl and fully explained the entire situation to her.
Joel was right to follow his heart and protect the child he could after losing the child that he couldn't.
Also, in real life, they wouldn't immediately go for the brain... they collect samples of white blood cells and such and would need way more scientists to help progress the studies, because it absolutely would take them so many decades. They most definitely would need her alive, at the very least for a long while to see how and why she was still living despite the cordyceps infection growing in her brain. his character just seems so poorly written and messy. there's also no information in either game revealing what education or knowledge he holds on the cordyceps already. and it's revealed by a professor in the show, that the only known way to handle an outbreak, are bombs. because with her many decades of research of cordyceps she concludes through her own extensive research, its not possible, the cordyceps destroys the brain, and it works fast, too fast for a vaccine to ever actually make a difference.
I guess this doctor has never heard of a biopsy.
@@joeldykman7591 EXACTLY!!! Thank you! I couldn't remember the word for it.
From the moment I played through the hospital scene, I never doubted or thought what Joel did was wrong. If I was in his situation I would have done the same.
We all would have done the same thing. The game is trying to get it's Audience to understand that if you were Abby, tho, you would have also done the same thing in killing Joel. We can do what we think is right in life, but it doesn't excuse us from Consequence.
@kenbell3101 except Abby escaped all consequences for her actions
@andrewdiaz3529 Yeah sure her friends being killed and her being tortured for months was nothing 😆
@@kenbell3101The torture had nothing to do with the her actions. That was just a reality of living in their world. Her friends dying is their own fault bc they're just as responsable for Joel's death. Abby had 0 personal consequences.
@@Z--..WHAT are I yappin about bud?
I just wanna point out Abby saying to her dad I’d be okay with it if it were me about killing Ellie is some of them most psychopathic shit I’ve ever heard lmao. “So it’s okay dad you can kill this other child that is not me against her consent since I would give you consent.”
Thats what annoys me about part 2. Ellie's arc and its message about revenge is actually pretty good and the gameplay is supurb, but the Abby story arc is just so badly written and poorly fleshed out and every attempt to get you to play as her just pollutes the entire experience.
Ya neil druckman certainly lost his mind on this project. Theres plenty of stories of him.firing playtesters who criticized the story.
@@sunnyisabunny1479no they just forgot about it. I literally thought the story was going to start off with tommys town being destroyed because ellie kissed her girlfieend and infected her. Then they just kinda forgot about that.
@@jebes909090 she also had a gf before her in Jackson too lol
Hahahaha holy shite, you're right. She did bite Abby at the end, didn't she? Just when I thought Cuckmann couldn't get even worse at writing. Let's face it, they completely retconned that. She kissed her gf in the DLC of part 1 I'm pretty sure. Then she snogs Dina all the time in Part 2. So her saliva doesn't do anything anymore. Unless somehow her blood got into their system in Part 1 trough the bite @@sunnyisabunny1479
Sacrificing Ellie to 'save humanity' is a big shortcut when you think on it, given the state of the world, how fractured the people are and the already done damage, plus you can't even assure the Fireflies will succeed in making a 'cure' to begin with, for all we know there could be no cure possible and Ellie being immune could be a beyond rare happening with her immunity unable to be shared
Theres like a near 100% chance it woulf have failed considering the conditions. Its like some random guy trying to make a cure for cancer from.some rando who got better from it. Not something thats likely to happen in our world today, let alone 20 years after the fall of humanity .
@@jebes909090 especially in that world where operating a lab/hospital would be near impossible
ANd the biological fact that a vaccine for a fungus is impossible - An excellent cold open in episode 2 of the HBO Series that fills in the knowledge gap, post facto, about whether not creating a vaccine was even possible. Regardless of Lab and Hospital availability etc, it's just couldn't happen. That should provide some solace to people unsure of which way they would lean on killing or saving Ellie.
Even of they could've made the cure, which I doubt, that doesn't make all the cannibalization, rape, theft, and murder go away. People who fell to that depravity don't change just cus there's no fungus zombies anymore.
@@archbishopofthecrusades9579 yeah with two decades of everyone for themselves no one would trust any form of governement again
You're forgetting that the fireflies claimed to have already tried to extract the "cure" from potentially dozens of others and failed. There's a strong chance her immunity is a rarity and not re-creatable or so rare it's not worth it, like the person that survived rabies.
Plus if Ellie lives long enough to have children, there’s a chance she can pass on her genetic immunity to her children.
As more & more people get exposed to the zombie fungus & die, her children with immunity will survive & continue to proliferate their genes, eventually (over hundreds to thousands of years) changing the genetic makeup of humans, thus giving them a natural immunity to the fungus.
Plus it’s unlikely Ellie is the ONLY human immune to the fungus, which would greatly accelerate the process, provided they don’t die in some dumb Firefly vaccine development centre, completely cutting off the chances of them passing on their genes.
Yes, they experimented on lots of infected people, to no avail. But Ellie is the first person they could experiment on who is immune. The Fireflies seem to think that studying her is the key to getting a cure. It doesn't matter whether you think they can, or not, that's missing the point. The point is that Ellie should get to decide for herself whether she wants to go through with the procedure, and neither the Fireflies *NOR JOEL* gave her that choice.
@@CHamlin86 joel couldn't give her the choice, because the fireflies knocked him unconscious and put her under anasthetics. but yea, i don't see joel letting her sacrifice her life
@@CHamlin86the Fireflies could have contacted Actual Scientists 👩🔬 and Doctors from the CDC and other facilities in the world there has to be other facilities in the United States were it’s actually possible to make a vaccine 💉
@@CHamlin86 experimented??? you mean chopped off other peoples heads. Abbys father was a lunatic.
When you think about it, Joel and Ellie not going to the fireflies would’ve actually turned out better. In part 2 Jackson had people constantly clearing out infected close to the civilization. I firmly believe that if Joel just lived there with Ellie, that place would eventually restore humanity on its own
I like that belief but I also think of that sewer community we run through in part 1
All it takes is one bad day and that community is wiped off the map
@@xdarkwolf2255 what was the sewer community again? Was it with the Clickers? Yeah, it was. The big horde, right?
@@Deni_Sokolovic Yeah the one with ahab. You go through it with sam and henry. Iirc someone left a door open, a few clickers got in and it was downhill from there
@@xdarkwolf2255 yeah. I played that whole mission while in stealth mode.
@@Deni_Sokolovicthere's a lot more people in Jackson then the sewers
There was a while where i truly felt conflicted with what joel did but after i watched game theory explain how unorthodox, medically unsound, and morally wrong the fireflies were with the whole situation it made me fully support joel in his decisions
I mean, I think a person would just have to put themselves in Ellie’s shoes.
Being robbed of a choice is like the worst thing that can happen to a person.
@@XFizzlepop-Berrytwist exactly, the fireflies never gave her that choice in the first place. Honestly if they had just let her wake up and allow her to choose, which yeah she most definitely would have sacrificed herself, but she would have been able to talk down Joel and they could have had a proper goodbye before her operation.
@@CaesartheX
I dont think we know what she would have chosen honestly.
Not until TOU2, though that feels way too… different for me, like they just had her be mad at Joel for story.
@@CaesartheXsee I can understand not doing that on the fireflies part
I could understand a group of people who've been fighting in the apocalypse for 20 years not letting consent be the one thing to stop them
Like in their defense, they've had to kill on the daily to survive and there's multiple communities that do way way worse due to a lack of authority to punish them
@@CaesartheX i mean, they could have given Ellie a choice, but the reality is that she didn't actually have a choice anyway. This was to save humanity and whether Ellie said yes or no, the fireflies were 100% doing the operation either way. I think doing the surgery without telling her was actually the kind thing to do as that is a tremendous thing to put on a child. Had she said no, she simply would have died in fear. People need to remember, that Ellie could have be given the illusion of choice, but she didn't actually have one.
The "I would of sacrificed my child" people are either, *Not* parents or at atleast , shouldn't be.
Exactly! End of story
100% agreeable
If someone tells me they think Joel was in the wrong I instantly think less of them. Can't help it.
Probably pro-aborts too
@@TheAbandonedAccount7 completely different...
One thing I also wanna mention is how we were watching Ellie be forced to grow up. In the beginning of the show and game, she was bubbly and relatively cheerful. but after all that she saw and went through, it numbed her down and forced her to mature.
Indeed. At first after meeting joel she was all cheerful and going on an adventure. Eventually, all her past traumas started surfacing, as people kept dying besides her in horrible ways, she saw groups trying to kill her and joel for petty shoes and few pennys, she saw a pedophile and torturer who wanted to satisfy his disgusting urges, etc and many more. All this played a significant part in her turning mum and silent towards the end chapters. She saw a father in joel which she never had, she saw how people died protecting her, and joel was basically half dead at a point. People forget she is just a 14 year old girl born in a apocalypse. Ofcouse she would want to die to protect and end all this suffering, because she knows no other way.
But the story in tlou2 ruined everything for me. Elie bitching joel and joels pathetic death scene for a npc doctor. And the games attempt to make us sympathize with the psychopath abby and forcing us to play as her for 5-6 hours. DIsgusting.
@@Naoki-ge5xpsoo true you are speaking facts fans are more intelligent than neil "I'm jew" druckman
“If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance, at that moment. I would do it all over, again.” -Joel
this reminds me of when Ellie was talking with Tommy and she says if it were her that died Joel would be half way to Seattle. And she was 100% correct
@@iwonderifbloodswatchbluescluesThe fact Joel even worried let alone trusted Abby at the start was a retcon of his entire character. Dude didn't trust anyone and they'd been attacked before. He's just going to trust some random butch bitch that outright says she has a whole group of friends posted up nearby?!
No chance. He'd put a bullet in her face the instant she said that.
One thing in the first game that I find interesting are some of the audio logs you find near the end.
What I take from those is that humanity is shooting itself in the foot by trying to find a cure. They have killed a couple immune children already, yet nothing has worked. They would keep trying, kill more immune children and keep failing whilst ironically forcing evolution to not build immunity by killing the only immune ones.
All immune people are children, that means that the immunity is a recent, but present mutation in humans. Every single child with that immunity should be kept alive at all costs. Their genes and their children are the future of humanity. Their children will most likely be immune and their children's children, until all of future humanity is immune.
Preventing that from happening by killing the ones with immunity in the hopes of a realistically small scale, short term solution is what dooms humanity in TLoU.
They should protect the future of humanity, not destroy it in an attempt to fix the present of humanity.
Yes, finally someone noticed this too, and adding to that, I’m going to be a little “controversial” I found baffling that Ellie in part 2 is always blaming Joel for not letting her “save humanity” while at the same time, she could literally try to have children to pass on her immunity, but the writers rather have her as just an angry lesbian
@@nicolassouza6063 FINALLY someone says that. I was thinking that too. She blames Joel for not letting her save humanity. And yet she's dicking around with Dina like a cuck, protecting someone elses baby.
She could've had her own immune child and save humanity by creating a life. But no angy lesbian, because lgbt stuff was popular and "in" at the moment
@@nicolassouza6063 It wasn't about "saving humanity." It was about "saving her living conditions." She wanted _the easy life back_ by finding _an easy fix._ It doesn't exist.
Although it was coming from a secular argument, the _belief_ was exactly the same as sacrificing a child to create favorable weather.
@ssouza6063 I always thought that was odd, too! It is pretty interesting how Ellie is seemingly willing to quite literally bite the bullet to give humanity a shot at immunity, but when that doesn't happen she never tries the next available option, which is to spread her immunity via having biological children. She can sacrifice her very life for humanity, but can't stomach sacrificing in this way?
Especially considering her having children is probably the best shot at spreading her immunity to the rest of humanity- the first game mentions how live fungal samples of the inert strain of cordyceps were found in her bloodstream. This means that any kids she'd have would be made immune in the womb thanks to fluid transfer with the umbilical cord, and any daughters of hers would also be able to spread the immunity via the same process, and their daughters after them. It would take generations, yes, but eventually, that inert fungus strain and humanity would form a mutualistic relationship similar to humanity and our current gut bacteria. After that happens, humanity just has to outlast the infected- they still are living creatures, after all, and if they can't reproduce and can't get their hands on their primary food source of humans, their numbers will drop thanks to them starving to death, dying from exposure, and being picked off by survivors. It'd be a long war of attrition, but it could work.
There's also the idea of inoculation via simple blood transfusions, which would theoretically work the same way but would be something of a crapshoot since you'll kill someone if you give them a transfusion with the wrong blood type. The ability to do en masse blood testing to avoid that is probably only possible in FEDRA hospitals. Trying to get Ellie into a QZ without her getting killed and then FEDRA actually believing Ellie was immune and agreeing to work with her would be next to impossible. Ultimately, Ellie having kids is probably the safest and most guaranteed way of spreading immunity.
You could have had a really interesting character conflict in Ellie by having her struggle with reconciling the fact that her children might be the only hope humanity has and her own sexuality making acquiring said children unpleasant at best and downright unbearable at worst. This wouldn't fly with the crowd that Neil courts, though, and they'd probably screech about it being "conversion therapy rhetoric" or something similar but equally stupid. So instead of having Ellie face that genuinely interesting, thought-provoking dilemma, they don't even have this option cross her mind and she just gives up on trying to spread her immunity despite being incensed at Joel for saving her from the Fireflies.
@@timetravelingshark8811 Thank you for articulating this so well.
You know would be a real subversion of expectations? Imagine if when Ellie found out the truth about what happened with the fireflies and just didn't care. Like she realizes that she has an amazing life in Jackson and prefers that to a slim chance for humanity to be restored.
That would require a sequel that actually cared
Or she knew Joel lied, maybe even went back to the university and found the tapes, the degree that showed the doctor was not qualified, even that they had no equipment to manufacture a cure. But she knew he lied, and though she hated him for that, not trusting her, she understood why he wanted to spare her. She'd just told him she had survivors guilt! And she forgave him years ago. She loves him for the good dad he is, and not the bad man he was or the bad things he sometimes has to be.
Actually, it’s not the university it’s the hospital in Salt Lake
@@voidvalkyrie2263it’s not that simple, when you’re basically the only person to not having to get fucked up by a mushrooms and that you have the idea of being humanity’s only hope after having your crush, your protector’s partner, and two brothers dead, as you could consider them like martyrs, it’s not that easy, especially if all the people you have cared about either died or abandonned you except one
@@arislekabile It isn't that simple, but knowing a blow is coming makes it easier to deal with.
She'd investigate the lie after a few years, feel angry about it, but once she found out a cure was impossible she'd have to come to terms with reality, that her death ultimately would have amounted to nothing except breaking Joel and accept that life's full of choices and they all suck, but a least she can move on and live happily in Jackson. She'd understand that his lying to her wasn't cool, and he couldn't have known a cure was impossible, but he did it because he loved her, and lied because he knew how much a cure meant to her. He made the right decision.
They made the journey on the hope for a cure and got one: a cure for their loneliness.
Bright side, glass half full, optimism. Honestly, it'd be nice to see Ellie reading a Bible. She likes the idea and wants to see those she's lost in heaven.
Everyone's lost someone in this universe, so she has people to talk and sympathize with, but you're more likely to be killed by people than infected.
"We can save the entire human race if you sacrifice your daughter figure"*
*Souce: Trust me bro
Even if the cure was a thing, the world would’ve never made it to back to how it normally was, the amount of time and destruction would be too much
And also, assuming the cure was a guarantee, there’s no way it wouldn’t have become a political weapon wielded by the fireflies. They would definitely not have give it out to everyone for free and made the world one big happy family
And the experience by itself. The world will never be what it was before COVID-19 because even if everything is as it was, now humanity will always fear a new and worse outburst. The same to this theoretical world: even if the world regained its order (something more miraculous than Ellie’s cure!!), they would always fear a new infection, or what they would be able to do now that they know how deprived of moral they can really become given the exact circumstances.
@@ginopinori but we are exactly how we were before covid
@@ginopinori we bounced back from the Spanish flu, and the bubonic plague. Maybe not right away but we'll get there eventually.
@@ginopinori Only real differences between before and after is that working from home becoming common was accelerated a great deal and everyone became a touch more nuts than we already were
Otherwise, we're right back to how we were before
Theres an audio file that literally states that they dont know how theyre gonna do it but theyre just gonna kill her anyways and go from there
which serves the fireflies purposes anyways, them failing at a cure still keeps them in power by denying other factions from doing it, specifically the military faction they where fighting with. They never planned to save humanity.
Joel is right about one thing......the wonderful tool that is....The Molotov Cocktail
Saved my ass multiple times especially in the university when in doubt throw the bottle out.
When all else fails the molly comes in clutch.
Losing hope? Fire trope
Fireflies? Let the fire fly.
Marlene always said there’s a “chance” that it’ll work. I’m not sacrificing anyone for a chance let alone someone who reminds me of my dead daughter.
@@xxluchianxx too bad. The sacrifice will happen. There are millions of other fathers and daughters that need the cure
She never says there’s only a “chance”. There was never a question, the vaccine would work.
@@Falloutfan1998still no fungal vaccines to this day.
The trolley problem is easy, until that one person is ur daughter, ur son, a close family member!
Or someone that you just met in less than a year…
@@Indigo_1001 In a world as cruel as our own...you would be hostile with everyone that isn't family or friends
@@lrsb1678 not to mention there probably alot more bad people you spared...What the hell am I'm saying, I'm not a damn scholar
@@deyontemyers4109 It was so sad. I wouldn’t wanna give up any of my family or friends, they’d be the only people I have left in the world
No real doctor has that dilemma, ever. They are not allowed to cause harm. Even to possibly prevent greater harm. Period.
I understand Joel. The world isn't really worth saving anyway. You can and should certainly try to save it, but I draw the line somewhere and way beyond that line is sacrificing my kid.
Now imagine your kid's life depends on getting that cure. How many millions of children would you demand die?
@@juststatedtheobvious9633 Lets say your child’s death would have less than a 50/50 chance of saving everyone? And then lets say that the people that would make a cure are a morally compromised group of terrorists that very much painted in this world as the heroes but if ya look at the lore, they’ve done fucked up shit just like everyone else and regardless, they’re willing to kill a kid on a hunch that she can be the cure. Not even a certainty. Again, the doctor wasn’t sure he could make a cure. And this is a terrorist group whose resources are limited and they’re on the backfoot of a battle that they’re losing. AND this is all assuming if they could theoretically make the cure, that they’d use it for good and spread it to as many people as possible and save the world? The reality of life and TLOU universe is the Fireflies would’ve 100% used the cure as leverage for them to win the war instead of for the right reasons had a cure been made. They absolutely would’ve found a way to weaponize the cure and Ellie’s death would’ve probably just resulted in more chaos and pain.
If the situation was as black and white as people make it out to be, I would be inclined to agree with self sacrifice but when the odds of the sacrifice doing any sort’ve good in the world are nonexistent then why sacrifice what you love?
@@juststatedtheobvious9633unfortunately the world has been to shit for 20yrs what are you saving if the odds are 1/10000000
@@juststatedtheobvious9633are you gonna ignore the fact that fireflies wouldn't even give the "cure" to civilians anyway?
@@Hal-fx9xx I'm talking about the scenario yummyjackalmeat laid out, where Joel would be right, even if the sacrifice saved the world.
How many people could look into their child eyes and tell them I would sacrifice you to save everyone on social media?
Right, that's what makes it such a difficult ending to process. Because the moral thing to do is to sacrifice your daughter, but the human thing to do is not to. Joel is 100% morally wrong to not let them do the surgery. From his perspective, though, there wasn't even a choice and he would do it all over again if he could.
NO ONE is saying that.
Many people fully understand Joel’s decision WHILE seeing that it was morally gray. That’s what makes the ending so great.
Retconning the ending for “Hero Joel and Evil Fireflies” is extremely lame and NOT AT ALL what the game showed.
@@supergatorhatorthe moral thing is not to sacrifice your daughter for an idea that is literally impossible....
@@joshmiller9783 In the universe of the game, it is definitely not impossible. It is established early and often that the only hope for a cure is Ellie. People have this weird thing they do where they try to apply real-life science to the game as if using the cordyceps growing in Ellie's brain could never yield a vaccine but somehow cordyceps making the jump from insects to humans and also changing the way it functions in nearly every way makes complete sense.
@@supergatorhator it is impossible thats why it didnt work before dude.....
This game always hits me since my father passed while we were fighting and just wish I spoke to him the day before it was too late, great video
The reasonable thing to do, would have been to ask Ellie, what she wanted.
I blame the Fireflies stupidity more than anything, and do take Joel’s side. He had to act or Ellie would be dead.
Ellie was robbed of that choice.
She wasn't robbed of the choice by Joel she was robbed by the fireflies. Joel created an option C.
The point stands that the ones at fault wee the fireflies, they underestimated the love joel felt towards Ellie, what he did was understandable but the consequences of his bad actions came to him.
@@personman1148
Yep, thats what I said. XD
@@miguelvelez8516
I wouldnt say bad actions, but yeah the consequences of his actions did come for him.
@@personman1148this reminds me: "oh my bad homie, I picked C, ain't that a bitch"
The second game seemed dead set on just destroying Joel as a character. Solely breaking him down into a villain that 'got what he deserved'. There at least100 different better ways to go about it and they went for the low hanging fruit. Which is why so many people hated the second game. It completely destroys what the first game stood for.
Thank you. As i always say. They could have told the same story just with better writing and nobody would complain.
I can’t remember the creator, but another channel on here did an amazing breakdown of The Last of Us Part II, and placed his own version of the story at the end. His version is so much better and more satisfying than the one in the actual game! I’ll have to see if I can find it again, since I think you’d enjoy it.
@koolkittykat04 There's a few out there. There's a particular one I'm trying to find again. By a British gentleman who basically wrote out the entire second game as a passing of the torch sort of story. With Jowl telling Ellie early on about what he did and her forgiving him. Explaining how the operation only had like a 5% success rate. And he didn't like those odds. Even showing her the document he found (that you could find in the original game, but none in the re-releases for whatever reason) with things then shifting to him. Teaching her how to hunt and survive. Build shelters and then how to find materials to craft weapons and such.
@@Snicketbar Oh, I found it! It’s by The Closer Look. It might be the same video you’re thinking of because I do remember the narrator/creator being British.
@@lrsb1678 My guess is that it went against the narrative they were going for in the second game. Which was for 'Joel to be a monster and got what he deserved'. Leaving that in would have made Jowl right in not trusting the doctors and made his actions somewhat understandable. Albeit a bit extreme. Since he was essentially lied to. He had risked his life along with Elies and lost several friends and family for something that had a high chance of not working.
Which they can't have because it would have made Abby look like the monster. (Which he still is) But then his actions wouldn't have been justified in their eyes, and he would just be a psychopath. ( Which again he still is.)
They also made joel an idiot and acting completely out of character in the second game.
Walking threw Joel’s house was probably the first time I actually cried because of a game. I grew up with this character and knowing that Joel is gone forever is just a sad fact that took a long time to come to terms with.
*through
There's always hope for his "return" in TLOU3. Maybe it'll be about his and Tommy's past?
I completed part 1 today again after almost 2 years of not having played it. This was my 3rd play through having first played the game back in 2016.
However, the ending hurt me so much this time knowing what happens in Part 2.
Don’t get me wrong I was not one of the people who hated part 2 but for me it does ruin Part 1 and it’s ending.
They did Ellie dirty. It was absolutely horrible the way her character has to go through so much trauma. I mean what’s the point of giving us these characters if the end is what happened to her at the end of part2.
Completely destroyed and left all alone. Left behind on her own. I would’ve rather had no part 2 rather than having it and ruining what Part 1 meant to so many of us. There’s already a lot of pain in our lives we did not need that for our beloved characters like Ellie.
@@inception9118Druckmann is weird man. He has a hard on for just nonsensical dark stuff.
Interesting note regarding the song "Future Days". I've recently watched "How i met your mother" and in one scene where 2 characters get married they've choosen Future Days as their Song. Started tearing up but not because of the marriage, but rather because it reminded me of Joel. Insane how after almost 4 whole years this song still brings up emotions in me.
I will always stand behind Joel in his choose because everyone seems to over look the fact that that this is not as simile as sacrificing the few for the many. If the Fireflies could guarantee a cure then there would be a moral debate on those grounds, but there trying to sacrifice the one in the hope they may be able to save the many, and in my mind that is not even an option.
Exactly, and in the end you see the fireflies for what they are and they are just guerrillas
Honestly? Fireflies isn't going to do this for the good of humanity. They can have vaccine as bargaining chip, overthrowing FEDRA and other communities. Or worse this become weaponized vaccine and tricks the desperate population into new wave of infected.
The thing with HBO's revelation they want to control the infected like some kind of WHISPERERS of The Walking Dead on the ranks is just confirming my theory I have from the original game I mentioned above.
For me, if I was Joel's place at the beginning of the infection, when supply lines were still whole, and the CDC were the ones working on the cure, I would make the sacrifice, it would kill me inside, but I would do it. But the fireflies? No, they don't have the resources to make that sacrifice worthwhile.
Honestly that’s how I felt I could not trust the fireflies with that big of a responsibility.
I don't think Joel would care who is the actor, but still the most important moral aspect is Ellie's informed consent and that's simply not there.
Lol everyone who said they'd sacrifice their child . Doesn't have kids
@@sas_j-money3422 exactly
I wouldn't have. Mainly because the premise didn't make sense.
The double standard that these developers hold is just funny. When Ellie goes on a violent killing spree, it’s oh so deep and meaningful because she’s traumatized and has been subjected to violence her whole life. But when Joel does the same thing to rescue Ellie, it couldn’t possibly be because he is still deeply traumatized from losing his daughter and was also forced to live a life of violence for more than 20 years. I’ve read fanfictions written by 13 year olds that were deeper than tlou part 2 lol.
You missed the point of the second game if you think it was a double standard. Both of their experiences of loosing a loved one were very traumatic and caused a shift in their view. Joel had 20 years of violence that we did not see.
We did get to see Elie's first few months of what she experienced when losing a loved one. She was spiraling and becoming the same violent and vengeful person as Joel.
While Joel held on to it for over 20 years; she was able to let it go.
No one knows how violent Joel must have been displacing all his anger. That is double standard
Nothing is ever that black & white. Take the Mafia & the government for instance, everything that the mafia did IE liquor, drugs, gambling, prostitution.. the government now owns those rackets. So does that mean it’s right because the government made it legal? No. Double standards exists. Another example, the book *50 shades of gray* Women liked that book, because he was rich. If a poor man had such fantasies, they’d label him a creep & he’d be thrown in jail. *double standards*
I didn't see Ellie's actions as anything but vengeance there. Hell, Abby's segment was more heroic in comparison.
Yeah so you just basically missed the entire point of Pt II
I am not sure if the writers intended this, but for me the moral question in the end of the game gets answered during the prologue. The soldier shoots Sarah, because there is a chance she is infected and by killing her he is saving lives. But she is not infected and the only thing he ended up doing was murdering a child. Same thing with the fireflies. They think there is a chance that killing Ellie will give them their vaccine, that by killing her they would be saving lives. But I think that, just like the soldier, they are wrong, they would have failed, they can’t create a vaccine and all they would have accomplished would be the murder of a child.
that actually makes sense damn
Holy shit. Well said.
I always thought "Okay" meant that she understood he was lying. That she wasn't really asking about the Fireflies at all. To me, she understood the meaning behind his lie and so accepted that relationship. Then TLoU2 did a 180 on that whole concept.
I never really got that…? Thats an interesting take.
Well that was the take that a lot of people behind-the-scenes had.
Like you say, she accepted the lie to accept the relationship. She knew something went wrong, she's not stupid unlike how TLOU2 portrays her, but by going along with the lie she acknowledges that Joel is protecting her from the stark reality of what the Fireflies *really* wanted from her. It'd be horrifying to learn that the woman who knew her mother and group that took in Riley didn't care about her until *her body* offered something to them, so instead she accepts to leave this horror she doesn't know to stay unknown.
Unfortunately that's a very nuanced concept, so you can understand a lot of people who didn't play the game might just think "Lies bad" like this is some Saturday Morning Cartoon makes more sense.
That was my immediate impression of the situation when I first played the game too. Ellie was a smart cookie in the first game.
This. She probably knew from the moment the drugs wore off and she had the chance to think about it. Does Neil think she's stupid? She knew Joel was lying but she knows how much he cares about her so she trusts him and goes along with it.
But then suddenly bursts into tears of disbelief 2 years later when Joel tells her what she knew all along?
Over the years I've learned to disengage with the whole debate. I know that the purpose of the last level of the game and the ending was to cause debate over who was right, so I needed to stop picking a side and just enjoy the game for what it was actually about. The road trip of Joel and Ellie. The sequel? I don't mind it, but it's just never going to be compelling to me.
Respect for not bashing the sequel just because it wasn't your cup of tea.
Smart there's a lot arguing in the comments.
I never had a stake in this discussion to begin with but listening to the discussion itself about TLOU2 has been more interesting to me than the game. At least, the reasonable sides that talk and don't just scream at each other with claims of bigotry or wokism.
another thing to consider is that at the beginning of the last of us something Ellie always mentioned was she was afraid of being alone. we can use this to back up to why she still stayed in Joel's backyard. And at the End of the game part 2 she ends up being alone after letting Abby go and at the Farmhouse
The fact there continues to be debate on Joel's decision with some believing he is wrong is baffling. Not only in Salt Lake City Ellie she mentioned she'd go wherever he wanted after the visit to the Fireflies was done, back at the university Ellie asked how would they test her and if the procedure would hurt.
Ellie was not then thinking about dying and the ending only implies that she was suffering through survivor's' guilt. Joel was also mistreated by the Fireflies with Marleen denying him to see Ellie one last time. He made the right choice.
I don't think 2 could hold a candle to how well 1 was. That's not by virtue of being a successor to a masterpiece, but by it actually being a DMC4 -> DmC style of disrespect and gross misunderstanding of the characters. I don't mind that Joel died, hell I think it was a natural consequence for his actions, but the way they did it, the way they constantly berate the player with "wow, isn't Abby so GOOD and COOL" and how they gave Joel a serious case of Plot Induced Stupidity, same guy that would never freely give his name away and drove away from a family at the very start of TLoU1... Would just give his name to a group of well armed strangers.
Consistent retcons to ensure that yes, Joel was going to kill the worlds chance at a cure, that yes, the fireflies weren't incompetent morons but actually geniuses and the good guys.
I think it's nice that a good majority of people think Joel was in the right, but a lot of what has been going on since the PS3 release has been acting against Joel's decision.
I'm playing the Remake right now, and it just shows me how bad the pacing in the sequel was.
Most of what you said is not only wrong but makes no sense. When is the player bombarded with "isn't Abby so cool"? She's a leader in her group of people, and good at what she does. She has made some very questionable decisions, but she does also begin to make good ones once she sees the effect the decisions of her group have on others. It doesn't make her a good person, it just makes her a character that isn't a machine. Joel also didn't just randomly give his name; like in the video he had almost become domesticated. He wasn't out for just survival anymore. He was trying to help others, and when he saw Abby in need of help he gave it to her in good faith. It's also customary to exchange names when you meet people. Jackson was very welcoming of new people, and had grown. It was probably not out of the ordinary to see or meet survivors out in the wilderness. All kinds of people out and about were armed, so that shouldn't have been a big deal. They themselves were armed. He made a mistake and it cost him his life, but he also accepted that because he knew who he was. I don't know what retcons you are talking about. Fireflies were never geniuses and good guys. They were a rebel group, almost an anti-establishment militia in their own right. FEDRA had a lot of control and people weren't as free as they should have been. Fireflies were also borderline terrorists; I mean, they blew up a truck or whatever it was right in the beginning of the first one. Just like any group like that there will be sympathizers, but it doesn't mean that every Firefly group will be like Marlene's. A lot of blockaded cities and areas are gone now, and it's been a few years since Marlene died anyway. Fireflies are just trying to survive like anyone else, but it doesn't make them these all-of-a-sudden good guys. No idea where you got that from.
@@georgen5882
Did you miss the part where they hamfist how COOL and EPIC Abby's dad and by extension Abby and the Fireflies are when he SAVED that helpless ZEBRA and gave a HEROIC speech about saving the world? Or how about when you play as her right after you just finished playing Ellie who just murdered all of her friends. Y'know, that's very cheap writing to tug the players sympathies.
No, but seriously, Joel was given plot induced stupidity. "He's gone soft, Jackson is welcoming", our first introduction to Jackson was literally them demanding they leave before Tommy was seen. Joel lived as a smuggler, he lived as a ruthless bandit prior to that and even the day the infected really took over, he still chose to abandon a family with a kid. He was a hardass very capable of being "cruel" if the time called for it.
EVEN IF he had gone soft, there is 0 reason why he would give his name like that. Ellie made David work to get that name out of her, Joel was very reluctant with Henry and Sam despite their aligned interests.
**Stop defending bad writing.**
I wouldn't go as far as to say they were saying abby is "so cool" her story was much bigger than that and that's what people don't/didnt understand, her story is more than a revenge to redemption ark. It's learning who she is. You learn shes not a bad person. She made mistakes but a lot of those mistakes were because she was misled by her groups leader. And she learned that from lev and Yara mostly lev since Yara was short lived. Abby was under the impression the seraphites were the aggressors and the wlf were defending themselves when it was actually the other way around even tho lev had his obvious personal issues with the seraphites lev still explained their side. The other person who was seeing the BS was Owen and he was trying to get it through to Abby. Even Owen saved a saraphite by taking out one of his own men in the process cuz the seraphite was not a threat. Not everyone in that group were bad people. Didn't seem like Owen and Mel were too happy with the way Abby tortured and killed Joel, Owen told Abby she was done. Mel distance herself. Abby thought revenge would help her it didn't, it also traumatized and gave ptsd everyone that was there. Ellie thought revenge would help but when it came down to it she knew it wouldn't. She was more fueled by the fact Abby took Joel before she could forgive him and she couldn't forgive herself. When on the verge of killing Abby she finally did that's when she spared Abby.
@delphox202 Abby strokes and plays with dogs. Abby good. Ellie kills those dogs. Ellie bad.
I just feel like we’re arguing about the wrong person here… what about Marlene…
Picture a (boring finale) where Ellie hears both sides (Joel’s and Marlene’s/The Fireflies). I’d wager Ellie would choose to go with Joel seeing as how she finally had a place where she belongs and can actually grow up.
There was a reason why Marlene and the other Fireflies wanted to keep the success rates hush hush…
Yep. I always thought it was pretty weird to think Ellie would choose to die. Even if she felt guilty over the loss of Riley, Sam, Tess, Henry, etc. it still would be a different story once the choice was right in front of her.
improbable. She already had her 'it can't be for nothing' speech. Ellie would have chosen to die and believed it was for a purpose. The game is pretty clear on this. This is one of the reasons it was such a big mistake of the Fireflies to not ask her permission.
It woulda been more interesting if the fireflies, ellie and joel had a conversation in which ellie agreed to do the surgery but then joel last minute decides fuck this and kills everyone then lies to ellie
It may be me but if I was Abby I would have asked why he did it. Not just kill Joel outright. And shooting him with a shotgun to the knee cause he has the same first name before confirming it is him is just stupid to me.
The whole abby thing was stupid
She's a psychopath. Chasing someone relentlessly for years and holding on to such intense hatred all that time. That's not normal considering her father was about to murder a child with the hope of creating a vaccine.
Abby has no brain, you can see that all through the game, she takes everything personal and overreact violently, she is also sadistic
Ask him why. Talk to him even a little bit after he just saved her life. Maybe struggle with the idea of killing a man who risked his own life to help her not a few minutes ago. Who offered her safe harbor and supplies out of the good of his heart.
She was ready to kill a man she hadn't confirmed was the man who killed her father. Joel could have moved out of Jackson or died years ago and this just be a random Joel.
She then decides not to just kill him, be done and move out. She chooses torture. Demanding a tourniquet to prolong his suffering instead of letting him bleed out in a minute or 2.
And then she thinks that Ellie will just let it go.
There was a good story in TLOU 2 but you can tell that Druckmann was focusing on justifying Abby's actions and that weird stupid sidekick she picks up later on stead of working out the unresolved tension between Joel and Ellie.
Then she would have to learn that her father was a cartoon villain cutting off the heads of unsuspecting people in search of a cure he wasnt even qualified to find and would have made his death justified. That doesnt fit in with the way this story tries to manipulate you into feeling sorry for him dying.
I remember after I watched my Dad play this he (unprompted) told me (his daughter) that he would have sacrificed me. I went into my room and cried for hours. Like did you not understand the game you just played?
What? I’m sorry to hear that. I hope he realised what a stupid comment and thing that would’ve been for him to do as your father.
Your dad is a real man. And he loves you.
Ouch. WOULD he though? It might be the "Moral" choice but it'd still feel WAAAAY more wrong.
@@maskingtables Lol no he doesn't. Any real parent wouldn't sacrifice their child just for a sketchy ahh "cure" 💀
@@maskingtablesTheir dad is a walking trash bag pretending to be moral, and you are too.
That giraffe scene was one of the most beautiful scenes in gaming and was beautiful in the show too.
My first playthrough I put the controller down and just vibed for 10 minutes
@@PcCAvioN ......well that's weird. Not a lot of time to vibe without your controller in last of us.
I'm surprised alot of people condemn what Joel did. What he did was reasonable due to the circurstances. EFAP crew also agreed that Joel was right in what he did.
It makes sense when you consider the sequel was made by activists. Jole was a straight, white, cis, male; just like hitler. He was guilty by default.
@@ab-hx8qe Gee you just seem so... sad
@@ab-hx8qeyou should feel guilty spelling Joel like that 😂😂
@@benjoman8252 Wow. You got 'em. It was likely just a typo but _you_ got 'em. Neither of you dunces address his argument at all. Could it be because neither of you have any nuance? Or thoughts of your own for that matter?
@@intellectic9155because it's a ridiculous premise and an incredibly bold claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence that completely blows out the status quo. The idea that the writers of tlou 2 think Joel is Hitler is completely ridiculous and has no solid evidence to substantiate it. Engaging with someone who is at that level of dogmatic belief is an utter waste of time.
You're pretty good at picking up on these moments. I feel like other people don't really bring them up when the topic is brought up.
I’m not a father, but I’ve said to my sister. “If you’re good means my pain, then my pain is good, no matter how much it hurts.”
I watched the last of us before my own dad died. He was stabbed to death in 2021. I think if I would to rewatch the game, I would cry.
We'd go on roadtrips every spring and summer. I was depressed during the time before he was killed, so I he'd ask if I would want to go on a roadtrip often and I'd just say no. The last time I spoke to my dad, I only asked him if he could buy me chips.
Are you gonna go after the killer ?
@@El_Bryan2k in trial I was a "witness of character" to my father. I was too emotional to go to the trial though, so I made a poster board of me and my dad and all of our roadtrip vacation photos across my province and the states. The judge looked at it for a couple of minutes, and cited it as the reason for charging the killer with a life sentence. So in a way I did.
My brother however wanted to take Ellie's approach to it but luckily he didn't.
Sorry for your loss, thats horrible,life is short...
@@erei5659 sorry for your loss
my father figure died 2 years ago and when I rewatched tlou 1&2 it triggered so much pain
This will be a long comment but here’s the short story: In short, I agree with Joel’s actions to go in guns blazing through the hospital to get Ellie out of there for these reasons not including any attachment he’s developed for Ellie:
1. Fireflies too eager to quickly operate without enough testing to rule out killing her being the only option. They are also under equipped to do such a task like making a vaccine in a run down hospital.
2. Did not wake Ellie up first to inform her of what is going on. (Reason for this was of course so the fireflies could say to themselves “this is what she wanted”)
3. No mention of the supplies and weapons that was the whole reason for Joel doing the job in the first place. They would have sent him on his way with nothing or shoot him if he resisted.
Long story:
I feel like the Fireflies were in the wrong here overall. Let me paint the picture for the situation. There’s the Cordyceps fungus that for the last 20 years has ravaged humanity. In a 1 in a billion scenario, a girl who is seeming immune to this has been safely transported across the United States right to your doorstep and may hold the key to making a vaccine.
Here’s my question, why are the Fireflies so eager to operate on her? Even in real life for routine procedures that a doctor might have done dozens of times, there’s still tests and examinations that have to be done but here we are dealing with a once in a lifetime chance on something that has never been done before. Before you would even humor that idea of killing her, you would want to rule out every other possible option before cutting open her brains. Ellie hadn’t even been in their care to do much of any tests before jumping to this. What I think the fireflies should have done is wake Ellie up and let her know what the plan is and then over the course of several weeks or months, do all kinds of tests and experiments and if that all fails, THEN you consider opening up her brains and killing her.
How I would have fixed this is very simple. Just say that Ellie has pneumonia after almost drowning prior to getting to the hospital. Due to the chance she might die from the pneumonia, the fireflies want to quickly operate on her in case any medicine might not work in time. This little change would instantly validate the urgency. The surgeon operating on Ellie should have been presented as one of the smartest men on Earth pre-apocalypse. Have a scene in the surgeon’s office with tons of news articles, awards, and books he’s written to really sell the idea that this man might be able to make the vaccine. I’d feel more confident in him making the vaccine if he was presented as such an intelligent man instead of taking his word for it that he could do it.
Also keep in mind that the fireflies were quick to send Joel on his way out of the hospital without any mention of what happened to Tess or any talk about the guns and weapons that were originally promised to him, the whole reason he accepted the job to transport Ellie to begin with.
They also forget the doctors oath that all doctors take to do no harm . And this would go against that oath.
It’s the same as rabies, you have to study the brain itself. The doctor clearly mentioned the infection is in her brain stem, that stake was clearly established
I'm biased because I'm the type of selfish to choose my kid over the rest of humanity, but even without the personal angle the Fireflies were stupid about this. They think there's a cure in Ellie's genes? They should be trying to propagate them then.
At a bare minimum they should have been harvesting her eggs, fertilizing them, and implanting the embryos in women they consider expendable. If her kids are immune- great! They've got more immune people! If they aren't immune, now they know, and they've made more future Fireflies. Win win. It's morally questionable, but I don't think the Fireflies care about that.
And killing her immediately damages their ability to harvest any other tissue later on. Once she's dead that's it. Her systems shut down- no new samples. Any tests can only be performed with what they got from a single harvest, and her corpse. It's wasteful, even if we take it at face value that they /could/ have made a cure/vaccine. And I'm with you, that it doesn't seem likely in those working conditions.
In short, they're stupid, wasteful, and short-sighted. I suspect if the Fireflies had a goose that laid golden eggs, they'd probably kill the goose to figure out where the eggs came from.
I don't know if Joel was right, but I would do the exact same thing. To lose 2 daughters ... that's too much.
Then it’s right.
As someone who has lost a daughter, I can concur.
@@mistermarkham101 My condolences. I hope you and your family are well.
I’m scared of ending up alone - Ellie.
i know the game can be good sometimes just like kids these days cant do anything and it is a lot like communism, a great idea in theory but rarely translates in practice. if you connect the dots then we begin to see a strange pattern just like the infamous night stand
I really wish we didn’t get a sequel the ending is perfect
Me too Fuck The Last of Us Part II and Fuck Abby too!
Ya. Sometimes i do that with shows too. I just pretend the other seasons dont exist. The show heros was like that for me. Season one is a complete story and extremely good. The rest of the seasons are hot garbage.
@@jebes909090 Same, I view everything past season 5 of Supernatural as it's own thing.
Part 2 was very cinematographic and had great athmosphere, but I will never forgive how they killed or ruined all the great characters. Joel, Tommy, Ellie and even Jesse made the game more enjoyable, but not for long.
You got that right!
While it is easy to capitalize on the greatness of TLOU, and eat off of it…. Dawg…. This analysis was fantastic. Truly in depth and thoughtful. This is G4 tech tv worthy man. Truly well done. 👌🏾
One thing here, neither Ellie, nor Joel knew that making a cure would be the end of Ellie's life until the very end.
The last of us was a game that my dad bought me, and I played both of them with him he's not my real dad, but blood doesn't mean anything those games will always live in my heart and be a beautiful memorie when I won't have my dad anymore
The trolley dilemma the first game presents is deceptive. This is by design in the first game. On the surface, it wants you to ask yourself if it is worth sacrificing the few for the many, but with the details presented by the game, you can zoom out and see the fork in the trolley won't save the five, you just add two more. Instead of five dying, it becomes seven. This is because the alternative to saving Ellie is Joel being released in the wilderness with nothing to protect himself with if not outright killed by the fireflies now that he had outlived his usefulness to them. If Joel had died then and there, would players have said that he had it coming?
I would say no because the Joel we are shown is not necessarily a good person, but he's also not irredeemable and by the time he died he clearly did redeem himself. He's a loving father to Ellie, a respected member of his community whose first instinct upon seeing Abby in danger was to help her, and his actions to save Ellie were shown to be the right decision as shown by how the Fireflies in the first game were little more than terrorists who were almost just as disliked as FEDRA was.
I find it hard to see Abby as the avenue through which any sort of punishment should be dealt because her reasons for going after Joel was he killed her father, a man who was extremely close to killing a child despite not needing to kill her. And Joel's supposed death that he had coming was because he didn't buy into the Fireflies BS with Ellie. Not to mention the game strongly implies that he was likely going to get a bullet in his head or be left to the infected/bandits now that he has outgrown his usefulness to the Fireflies.
It implies that the punishment for not accepting death like a good little tool is...death.
The villain of the story is the fireflies for lying and not telling Ellie and Joel that she is going to die from the procedure before they did it. They only told Joel because they thought they could force him out.
And maybe Ellie is partially a villain for taking it out on Joel for the fireflies lies.
Exactly! What makes it worse is that there was strong possibility that they could've gotten what they wanted by being more honest and direct. If Ellie really wanted to die for the sake of a cure then they could've just woken her up and asked her with Joel present. If she had yes then that's it, he couldn't have gone out guns blazing and save her against her will but no, lets leave her unconscious and try to convince Joel it's what she'd want because that will go down smoothly.
My friends and I have argued about this for years. My one friend said Joel was being selfish and I argued that even if the fireflys made a cure that they don’t have the logistics to spread it. I’m glad I’m seeing this argument echoed. Not trying to say Joel is a saint but I would’ve done the same thing.
I love watching your videos but I’m just as broke as the other person lol, just wanna show my appreciation much love bro
This video just made me start reinstalling both games to give them another go. I've never been more emotionally invested in any other games.
One detail the video overlooked is that Ellie and Joel made future plans for after their hospital visit. This strongly suggests to me that dying wasn't on Ellie's mind when going to that hospital so I'm doubtful that Ellie would choose to die for the vaccine so confidently as Marlene makes it seem(I'm 50/50 on it seeing how much she cares for Joel). I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want to just leave Joel without at least saying good bye considering all they've been through and knowing how much losing Sarah affected him, Ellie wouldn't want to visit that pain on Joel again by cutting him out of her life like that IMO. In that sense I'm sure Ellie would not want the operation to continue under the conditions we see in the game.
Also the issue if the Fireflies ever could make a vaccine is vital to the morality of Joel's choice since is that's the difference between Joel dooming the world or Joel saving Ellie from delusional child killers. IMO there's not enough in either game so show the Fireflies had a shot at making a vaccine(ignoring if they could ever produce enough, distribute it, defend it, use if for good and hand it out "fairly").
I'm with you that Joel probably didn't care for curing the world but in the end he still did the right thing, stopping the immoral actions of the Fireflies even though his reasoning isn't all that "pure".
Yes true but what bothers me is that part 2 says Joel was definitely wrong, that ellie wanted to die in the hospital and that the fireflies would have saved the world if it weren't for Joel. Part 2 isn't particularly deep, it's just trying to say 'Abby had her reasons'.
@@Aeneiden It's not that she WANTED to, it's that she WOULD have if she'd known that people thought she needed to. She was making plans for after the hospital cause to that point her death hadn't been indicated or talked about. The Fireflies biggest mistake was not even asking her consent. She WOULD have agreed and probably was the only person in the world capable of convincing Joel to let it happen. Instead they tried to be sneaky about it and paid the price.
I think anyone who honestly thinks Ellie would have said 'nah fuck the world' after all her 'it can't be for nothing' stuff... We can agree or dissagree with if Joel was justified or not... but we can pretty well surmise who Ellie was and what she'd have done.
God, 15:53 gets me every time. In my interpretation (before the sequel), Ellie clearly knows that Joel is telling her a lie (even if she doesn’t know the exact specifics), and she’s having trouble accepting the magnitude of the lie and what it means for her life and the lives of all their friends who died. By asking Joel to swear it’s all true, she’s basically giving him one final chance to come clean, knowing that if he doesn’t take it, then she trusts that as her “father” he ultimately knows best and if he’s so adamant about this that he’s willing to outright lie to her face, then it must be for a good reason and she’ll just have to eventually also come to terms with it and try to live a “normal” life. I’m ranting lol but ultimately it’s a great interpretation because to me it shows that even if somethiing is objectively wrong, she’s willing to go along with it out of love and respect for Joel.
Unless I misunderstood or I remember incorrectly, they even told Joel that if they did go ahead and take Ellie’s life there was a very slim chance of making any progress at all towards a cure. The most likely outcome was that Ellie would die and it wouldn’t have made any difference at all, they’d have been no closer to a cure. That sealed it for me.
I always said this I would’ve done the same thing Joel did but you have to live with the consequences that come after this moment. Eventually someone gonna come and knock on your doorstep.
Instead of shooting Abby's dad he could have tied him up. Then that way Abby wouldn't have come after him.
@@thomasblanks2842 the sick part is that the game force you to do it, there were a lot of other natural options but we were only alowed to kill him
@@superbobomario8849 yea I know wished that Naughty Dog would let players make the choice in what to do.
@@thomasblanks2842You can also use a flamethrower?....
@@thomasblanks2842
Game wise, sure? But realistically no… That doctor was going to stab someone, he had a choice to back down, but instead decided to attempt to kill.
If someone has a knife, even if you have a gun, you do not have much time to realistically react if they charge you, especially if they are close.
You will win the encounter most of the time, but they will at least get one stab in, within a set distance.
The fact that people think the fireflies wouldn't have held to that cure like a weapon ,and rule the new world is wild. They weren't saints
She couldn't consent to the surgery because she was unconscious and a minor. Besides, vaccines for fungal infections are impossible anyway. Vaccines are also preventative, so everyone who was infected already was doomed. So yes, Joel was completely right to save her. Why is this so hard to understand?
Because some people has no idea about Ethics, this should be common sense
I’ve never understood why there was any discussion about Joel’s choice. It was the right choice for Joel, but it may have been the wrong choice for all the people who could be saved by a cure (let’s ignore whether or not the cure would have worked, since either way it wouldn’t have changed Joel’s decision). Or take Abby for example. Joel may have killed her dad to save Ellie, but later on Ellie actually saves Abby’s life from the rattlers, so was his decision right or wrong for Abby? It’s a lot more complicated than that, but regardless of right or wrong we understand Joel’s decision because we know what he’s been through and how he feels.
21:12 The part where Ellie buries her face in Joel's coat to take in the smell always gets me. Every time.
This is why I personally hate the sequel. The game makes you believe that Ellie was just the cure of the world. But realistically, the Fireflies's plan would have never worked. They would have never created a vaccine from Ellie’s immunity. They would have just murdered a child over a flimsy chance. And even if by some miracle that they did, it would be too late. The world is too far gone to be restored, and the Fireflies would have just keep the cure for themselves.
They were going to use that cure as a point of leverage against FEDRA. Keep its origins a secret, and promise you immunity after your initiation.
The first game was a story of hope and optimism. It showed the best of humanity through Joel and Ellie’s relationship, Ellies’ existence in itself showed that humanity would be just fine.
This is what makes the tonal shift from the first to the second game so heartbreaking. It showed the worst of humanity using the same characters and taking away the happily ever after we feel they deserve.
Personally I wish the second game just didn’t exist, it tried so hard to be a lecture on how shitty people are when it really just reflected on the writers negative outlook on humanity while also shitting on these characters.
The sequel perfectly reflected that worlds state of humanity.
@@ThaKingJay If that is true then why continue to exist at all? The sequel is merely the outlook on life of the childless progressive weirdos in the writers room.
Strongest possible disagree. But I think you’ve hit the nail on the head expecting a ‘happily ever after’ ending. P2 critics typically missed the point of the ending of p1 completely and have some weird ability to accept narratives other than ‘main man = hero’.
I dont see how the second game isnt also a story of hope and optimism. It's about overcoming grief and being able to make peace with the past through love and family. There's a reason it ends with Ellie letting Abby go, she picks the good option. She doesn't get a happily ever after because that's not life, but she gets the next best thing: Another chance to be better.
@@PastelN01r the kind of person who thinks that part 1 has a happy ending is the kind of person who sees no hope in pt 2. But they are both a complex mix of different tones and people give themselves away when they see them in such reductive terms.
39:05 That "yep" tears me apart every time.
ngl i cannot stand the retcon in 2 that the firefly doctor would have 100% succeeded in creating a cure
Same here, just makes it seem like the fireflies were better than they were.
I say that the fireflies only _thought_ it was 100% possible.
The TV show confirmed there is no way to cure the Cordyceps virus.
It was entirely unnecessary too.
Mentioning the trolley problem at the start actually made me think about the reaction players had vs what the writers of TLOU2 seemed to have had. The players connected with Joel. The writers of TLOU2 didn't, and so they considered it morally correct to kill him. At least that seems to be what happened IMO.
It was the same writers.
@@lustrazor44 Druckmann? Yes. But if I recall correctly, Bruce Straley was the head writer for TLOU1. Druckmann worked in an assisting role.
TLOU2 is his baby, borne from an idea he'd had floating around since his college days. Haley Gross I suspect was hired on to flesh it out.
@@stevenguitink5947 bruce was the game director he focused on gameplay and how that meshes with story neil was the creative director he focused on where the story is going, together they made the masterpiece that is TLOU 1. TLOU is neil's baby from the outset bruce helped him with the vision but neil birthed the game. He was the head...
@@slickstar96 Not quite. The original poster underplayed how little Neil was involved in the first game.
Dive into the GDD or interviews prior to development of TLOU2 and it's no end of "Neil said this, we said no" to where it's hard to say what, if anything, he suggested made it into the first game.
Case in point: Neil Druckmann's original plan for TLOU was for it to be entirely about a revenge story centering around Tess hunting Joel. *What happened in the sequel?* Y'know, the sequel that he had full control over. The sequel nobody's arguing he wrote.
The lie that he had anything to do with the first game is entirely derived from his name attached to the credits, and hoping nobody would dive into his career. Y"know, appealing to people who've done so little research they've only heard about the Tess hunts Joel plot now, despite it being a point of contention since TLOU2 's plot was leaked.
@crazyinsane500 The father and daughter concept came from neil. It was born from an idea he had in uni in a project he was doing. Sure, he wanted to have a revenge story included in it. Sure, he at one point wanted it to be a virus that effects solely women but he listened to feedback from his team and realised that was not right move then he went back to the drawing board and came up with the story for TLOU with the help of bruce with the gameplay.
Underlying facts without neil, there is no TLOU because there would be no concept to go on if it wasn't for neil. Remember ND before TLOU idea were working on a real-life jak and daxter, which most likely would have soured the franchise because it would not be the same.
8:24 it’s not even a cure, just a vaccine against the bites, but that doesn’t stop you from getting teared apart by the zombies which is what happens in the games instead of just a bite
I just want to say: Thank you, for this video. It is just everything.
Finally someone that feels and thinks exactly like me about all of these aspects. I love these games so so so much and they are easily my Top 1 and will be probably for... forever.
You had NO RIGHT making me cry over this game AGAIN 😭
At 14:30, Joel sharing there were others is not a particularly a lie. Through gameplay you can find notes and doctor journal entries showing there are other patients who were immune but all attempts have failed. Not only does he want to protect her as a father figure, but he’s not going to let her death be for a “chance” or just another experiment.
Really?
@@arislekabileyes. I just played through the game for the first time a few days ago, and got somewhat addicted to finding the collectibles. The “collectibles,” in question aren’t actually collectible, as this particular note is one of the few that you actually set back down after reading it. I remember it being 11 or 12 immune subjects they had tried to operate on, all of which failed.
Some massively solid analysis, my friend. Just finished my second playthrough of both games, and while I still think there's some problematic gameplay / design choices in Part 2, this has added a bunch of perspectives I hadn't considered. Big props.
the scene where they go to the museum and she listens to the apollo launch? yeah i cry so hard every time. he just genuinely wants to be a dad and takes interest in what she likes and goes out of his way to make her happy