22:26 The thing that interests me most in this moment is that you can actually hear Abby fighting the Rat King on the other side of the door while Ellie is beating Nora to death. When the WLF soldiers chase Ellie and Nora down to that level you can hear them asking aloud why the power is turned on. It's because Abby turned it on. The entire time Ellie was beating Nora to death trying to find Abby, Abby was on the other side of the door fighting for her life.
That is fascinating. I knew you could hear the Rat King on the other side, but never knew that’s why the power was on or that it was actually Abby fighting it you could hear. Cool bit of trivia, thanks for sharing!
Anyone crazy enough to send actual hate messages and threats to actors who play fictional characters is not the kind of person you're going to reach, no matter how thoughtful and right your message is. A person like that is unwell and likely can't tell the difference between fiction and real life anyway.
I find myself unphased by harrassment these days. Because here's the thing: harassment is universal, it happens to everybody, but people only care about when it happens to people they like. When it happens to people they don't like they couldn't give less of a damn. Just look at streamers getting bullied to tears over Hogwarts Legacy and all of the usual suspects ignoring or even supporting it lmao.
@@MrPyroCrabMost of the HL harassers, especially among the ones sending death wishes, are pretenders out to make the whole pro-trans crowd look bad. People are getting wiser and that's the douchebags' counter to that.
It's not so much "they can't tell apart reality and fantasy" as it is "they don't understand how acting works as a process and that small-time actors especially often have to take what roles they can get in order to eat because the job is inherently unstable". They get pissed off when the actor(s) didn't simply refuse to play their direct part(s) in creating the contentious scene(s), thinking they have the liberty to just walk away or push changes because lol they're all rich.
Like the Star wars fans with the sequel trilogy. You can hate and criticize the films,(and I get why people dislike these movies, like mismangement, bad writing, and the overall squandered potential for good films) but sending death threats to the actors and directors does nothing to help the situation. If anything, these kinds of acts are the reason the Star wars fandom gets labeled as toxic, despite the many valid complaints for the new films.
@@EroticOnion23 But that's part of her character development. She didn't start out that way when she was a young girl, before her father's death. Her hate and desire to take revenge drove her to train every day, get as strong as humanly possible, so she could take on anyone standing in her way. And later on in the game, we see her weak again, beaten, sickly, which is the only reason Ellie did even stand a chance against her in their final encounter, though Ellie wasn't in the best shape herself.
Exactly. I loved J's personal story bit the most. Just ties this video together perfectly. A lot of the ability to truly understand this game comes down to personal experience.
@@EroticOnion23 Yeah, that's what makes her character unlikable, not the fact that she's a psychopath who relished in the thought of killing a pregnant woman.
i usually never comment on videos but i just wanted to thank you for stopping the video and talking very openly and honestly about your experiences and how you personally related the story to yourself. i tend to find a lot of comfort in video essays as a means of hearing other people talk about and analyze pieces of media and TLOU is a special story to me, just like it is too many others, and i always found it difficult to understand why SO MANY didn’t like the second story but i think you absolutely nailed the reason. the fact that this story is portraying such a real and human story of love, failure, connection, and struggle we can all relate to it in way one or another and i think it’s very easy to subconsciously see ourselves in characters and because this is such a heavy and uncomfortable story it’s very easy to get dismissive and turn away from what’s being shown and i appreciate you bringing up that very personal realization that you had. the way you talk about this experience is one of passion and deep care for the story and the ways it has shaped and or grown with you and there’s such a beauty to that and it’s very special seeing someone take that approach to reviewing this story. honestly made my day, thank you :)
I had a hard time getting into the first game because when his daughter got shot, it reminded me of the loss of my daughter. My friend recommended the game and after seeing that scene I couldn’t touch the game again for several years. I still rightfully can’t play the second one for the same reason. I can accept people talking about it but I can’t personally play it.
Why did your friend recommend the game if he knew about your daughter?????? Seems cruel. Even I cried which never happens to me but that scene brought up some old ptsd wounds. My grandma is the only person I have left because I have lost so many. So I get you. Considering it's your daughter which is basically the theme for both games I probably best to stay away. My condolences brother❤
i feel like the story to this game was told in the wrong order and not only that, this plot for revenge just for her to not even go through with it and return back to left all alone and have nothing, made me sad. i love everything about the game espically the gameplay but the story, needed some work
@@Sinnahh I can see why some people think like you do, but as someone who had no childhood because of a lot of horrible things, who has had to deal with losing loved ones way too soon, the difference in how I think of it is in the realization that revenge will never fix anything. It usually just makes things worse. Which is, IMHO, clearly evident in this story. You only ever start to move on past the grief when you can let go of the idea of Vengeance. This is something I am still learning myself because sometimes it is nigh impossible to let go, especially when you're feeling guilt or regret and are far too good at blaming yourself for everything, even when it's not warranted. I see a lot of myself in Ellie, and for me, having her not walk away from the need to end Abby would have been so much worse and left me feeling even more empty and hopeless. Walking away is the harder thing to do, but if you can manage it, you eventually see a light at the end instead of more bleak heartache. Just my perspective on it.
57:29 It's actually because Buzz considers it a part of Andy's Room's "culture" to freeze when Andy shows up. It's only a single line so you can easily miss it.
And also, when the toys “freeze” in Toy Story… they’re essentially blacking out or going to sleep. They lose consciousness obviously to not expose themselves in the human world
@@cloudshines812 Except they can still move if they want to. In Toy Story 3, you can tell from Buzz's eye movement when a kid is about to do something he would rather they not. And in Toy Story 1, they do just that to the other, much more deranged kid.
@@skibot9974 You.. you literally see them move in the first film and make the bully kid absolutely terrified. Remember? They absolutely can move if they want to. And it isn't too much of a logical leap to assume Buzz when he thought he was on an alien world just thought that was the culture of Andy's room.
There were scenes in the Toy Story franchise where the toys didn't freeze up whenever an human were nearby, Sid was the very first to be aware of that fact, but couldn't tell anyone as he was too scared.
I think that Joel's Death (controversial take I know) is probably one of the best representation of death there is in gaming, because it displays exactly why people are absolutely devastated when something like that happens. Its sudden, quick, unremorseful, and like that everything continues as normal, there is no dramatic build up, no final tearjerking monologue, its there and done. The way Joel died was incredibly realistic too, in the sense that it was for the most absurd reason and it was when he never expected. It kind of reminds me of Rick's Death from the Walking Dead comic, where despite literally fighting a sea of walkers to protect his hometown, some random mayor's kid just dropped him with a silenced pistol while he was asleep. I find that most games or shows have very little understanding when it comes to what makes death so devastating, usually people are conditioned to think that the devastating thing about death is about death itself, and not the lingering meaninglessness of it
I agree wholeheartedly. I think popular media has conditioned us to expect gratifying deaths for beloved main characters but The Last of Us is just not that kind of story. There isn’t even a single death scene in the first game that feels heroic or grandiose - it’s all morbid, quick and shocking. The second game makes a big show of Joel’s death for added impact but it’s still consistent with the rules of the universe. And for what it’s worth, it’s a fucking haunting scene - the sound design, music, Ashley Johnson’s acting, the slow camera movements; it all leaves a lasting impression. You’re thinking about Joel the whole game despite how little he’s in it because his absence affects all of the characters. I love it when stories don’t make a big spectacle out of someone’s death. Succession and The Wire’s last seasons did that exceptionally well for example.
In my opinion, Joel's death was super realistic and true to real life. However it's not good for telling a story, because it feels like it comes out of nowhere just for shock value and to start Ellie's journey. It just feels like lazy writing to me. I see where you're coming from, though, and I respect your opinion.
This game singlehandedly helped me realize gamer reviews are not to be trusted. Now I don't trust "professional " critics or gamers. I only trust my own judgement
My oldest brother says he enjoyed the story of Part 1 more, but concluded Part 2 has the better gameplay. That seems like a logical assessment, but I've yet to play it.
@@Slavic_Snakeevery story is that simple when you boil it down to that much, doing so is reductive and just shows us that you’re an idiot with poor media literacy.
@@Slavic_Snake Hey, congrats, you got the main theme down. Did you happen to get any of the other themes? Or you that simple minded and filled with hare you missed everything else. My guess, you missed everything else
My biggest problem with TLOU2 is the way its story is structured. It builds for Ellie's 3 days up to the confrontation at the theater, but then cuts to Abby's story which doesn't even connect with Ellie's that much and takes several hours to build back up to the same confrontation. I really didn't gain anything from interacting with a lot of the characters cause I knew were going to be killed by Ellie (almost all in justified "kill or be killed" situations). The most interesting part to me was the stuff with Yara and Lev because I didn't know what was going to happen to them and wanted to see them survive. Also, I think a huge missed opportunity in the story was that they never brought up the fact that Abby killing Ellie's dad was basically the same thing Joel did to her (arguably even worse since Joel's death was right in front of Ellie).
Also Joel did it just to save his new "daughter", not wanting to see a second one dying. Abby did it just for osbessive revenge, dragging all his friends to a dangerous trip just to kill one single person that they don't know even if he's still alive or not. And even after, she left Ellie and Tom alive just to suffer the loss of Joel, after she forced them to watch hours of herself torturing Joel just for pleasure, before finally killing it. She was a complete psycho.
@@TheMetalOverlord Actually, she let Ellie and Tommy live because they had nothing to do with her revenge. (Cringes) I feel dirty defending Abby. Don't ever make me do that again. I agree with the rest though.
@@youtubecreators384 Yea but that doesn't make sense, knowing that Abby has just intentionally created another "herself" in Ellie. She kill people for basically no reason when you play her, but that time she left Ellie live, knowing that she was gonna chase her searching for revenge? Why?
I personally quite like the story structure. All the people you killed as Ellie were shown as being “monsters” so making us play as Abby for 3 days makes us realise that they were just people surviving in this world
Look, I know what they were trying to do with the story. Revenge is a neverending cycle that brings nothing but pain. In the end, no one wins. But the way they were trying to get us to sympathize with both sides, it just didn't work for me. Like when they were trying to get me to feel bad about killing the WLF dogs as Ellie by having us play with them as Abby; it just didn't work for me. Yeah, I have a dog in real life, but even in real life, if a big dog is trying to kill me, I'm going to defend myself, even if it means ending it. Plus the dogs were kind of annoying enemies, so I felt relief when I got rid of them. And I didn't feel bad about killing Abby's dog, because she belonged to Abby. And then they try getting us to sympathize with Abby. You see why she killed Joel and usually that would be a very sympathetic motivation. But Joel didn't prolong her dad's death. He stabbed him clean in the neck, dead and done. Abby took her sweet time torturing Joel and beat him to death, drawing out his suffering. And in the end, his death didn't bring her closure, so she killed Joel for nothing. What really pissed me off was when she tolded Tommy and Ellie that they wasted the chance she gave them when she spared them. "Excuse me? Do you honestly not realize why they would track you down to kill you?" Those were my exact words when I heard her say that. And then she was so eager to slit Dina's throat when she learned she was pregnant, because she wanted to get even for Mel's death. But Ellie didn't know Mel was pregnant, and if she did, I think Ellie would've tried to non-lethally subdue her. She killed Mel in self-defense and was horrified when she realized what she did. Meanwhile, Abby is all for killing a pregnant woman and only stops because Lev gave her a look. And yeah, Abby's relationship with Lev. I can see they were trying a sort of "Joel and Ellie" 2.0 with them, and I like Lev. He's a good character, and I did want to protect him. I just hated that I had to play as Abby to protect him. To me, it just felt like emotional manipulation. Like "Look, doesn't this remind you of something? They are alike after all, Joel and Abby." When I saw how Abby carrying Lev on the beach reminded me of Joel carrying Sarah and later Ellie, I was unmoved. I just saw what they were doing, and it didn't work. Mel said it best. Abby is just a piece of sh!t. Now even if the story didn't work for me, the gameplay is awesome. I absolutely love switching between stealth and aggressive play. It's kinda ironic. The theme is violence is bad, but the violence of the game is the funnest part.
The whole game can be summarised with: "You're a piece of shit Abby!". She was just unlikeable character even without the torturing Joel part. Besides she got away with what she did and escaped with Lev, even though revenge was supposed to be bad and all that.
@@gertytk5528 To be fair, her actions were the catalyst to her losing everyone she cared about. Sure she got away with Lev, but she has to live with all her friends being dead. The more I think about it, the more I feel that is a more fitting punishment to her. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want to stab her while she was tied to that pillar.
Exactly. It felt forced. It should of given the player the options instead. Forcing people to relate to something always has a possible negative outcome and that’s what happened with TLoU 2
Didn't Yara also say "Mel's wrong, you're a good person Abby." I thought it was brilliant that that line precedes the Tommy sniper encounter because it just shows how emotions can be easily manipulated (in a good way) because of perspective.
Thank you for saying that Joel was a different person since he was living in a "civilization" for a number of years making him not as hard as he was in the first game. I thought I was the only one who thought that :)
Your feelings on the story and what you took from it align with mine 100%. I also went into part 2 totally blind, had the same disgusted feeling when the perspective changes to Abby midway through, but unlike a lot of people, by the end of my first play through I also didn’t want either of them to die. I just wanted them to talk it out but knew it wasn’t possible. To this day it blows my mind that this game gets so much vitriol….the story was an absolute masterpiece in my eyes.
I for one like seeing you pop up in the flesh in your videos. Weather you talk about games or bit’s and pieces of your personal life, I feel it adds to your videos. At the end of the day if you like popping up in person in to ur own videos keep doing it. If not, that’s fine too. Rock on dude.
Every game I play after the last of Us 2 just makes me appreciate it more. The gameplay is so good that you can notice how stiff the player characters are in other games.
Yeah this video is going be very controversial. Personally this game had some solid ideas, but overall, it execution left a lotnto be desires and has some major flaws that fans have that can't be shrugged off as "toxic culture."
Well the Nostradamus Js reviews gave us a whole section of the video as to why it is toxic culture. You need to search within to find the Zen of the AbbyZilla and realize this game is a masterpiece.
@@Actionfigure_fit Js reviews does it, I’m not saying I agree with him at all on his stance. I think there can be a over exceeding amount of arguing but then again we all have that right to our opinions. TLOU is still beloved by the majority so for him to be so upset over the “toxic culture” of TLOU is a bit of an exaggeration
This is the best analysis of the game I’ve seen. Even after all these years, I’m still processing this game, because as with you the first one is my favorite game ever. Keep up the amazing work!
Getting rid of Joel was necessary since his story was finished in tlou1 and needed to fuel the events of tlou2 but my problem is that they got rid of him way too early just to get you hooked into the story. I also had a problem with how they executed deaths from side characters. In tlou1 the deaths were spontaneous but they had a lot of build up like Sarah, Tess, Sam, and Henry. Unlike in tlou2 where Jessie is just killed and no one seems to care. Felt the same way with Manny when he was shot and Abby just moved on. They don’t carry the same amount of emotional weight as the first game. Another thing I noticed is that the ending of both games are structured similarly but tlou2 gets more hate due to how in your face it is. In tlou1 you go through this long journey across the US just to end up changing your mind and killing everyone. Same with tlou2 where you go through this long journey just to end up not doing what you set out to do and leaving but this time with nothing in return. They also tried doing an Ellie and Joel bond with Abby and Lev but it wasn’t anywhere near as compelling or touching. Tlou1 was just better at being subtle which I attribute to Bruce Straley’s (co-director of part 1) contribution. All in all I have always been in the middle wether I like or dislike tlou2 because I see what they were going for and the gameplay itself was fantastic but it wasn’t a satisfying sequel in my opinion.
I mostly agree with the first paragraph. If Joel HAD to die for the sake of the story they needed to do it in a later stage of the game. One of the reasons I'm not a fan of the story in part 2 is that I felt like they could've done more with his character to be Ellie's mentor. And he just went out too soon in the beginning. Replace Joel's role in that scene with, let's say, dina- and it could've worked just the same. People would get the themes behind it. What we got instead wasn't necessarily the right way to tell it in my opinion
This video has me actually excited for the remaster later this year. I wasn’t originally interested since I don’t remember liking the story. But you’ve made me think that I should give it a proper second chance away from all the toxic discourse
I think they fumbled with the time line here. If they wanted us to like Abby so badly and push the same vengeance parallel with Ellie they should have had us play as Abby before she kills Joel. Have her target and reasoning be a mystery till finally killing him at the end of her segment. I get the message they were trying to push but it was too late then, everyone hated Abby already.
(Im just now coming to this video sorry this is like a 5 month later response lol) I agree there couldve been a better way to tell the story. I think there goal was they wanted you to hate abby when you started her story. I think they wanted people to look more inward and literally walk a mile in the shoes of a person they truly hated and see their perspective. I definitely dont think it succeeded for a lot of people. For me it did. But thats the thing about art. Everyone has their own interpretations and feelings and I think they bet too much on guessing what they could get people to feel through the story
The Last of Us Part 2 is a very heavy game, the murder, the violence, can seem like too much, initially I too wanted to avenge Joel, his death was particularly gruesome (but expected, so it didn’t shock me like it did a lot of people) so many times during the story I wanted Ellie to stop, I saw her becoming unrecognizable, and at points I saw her actions to be just as savage as Abby’s, and I think that was the point ND was trying to convey, all things have an opposing force, hate exists because love exists, Ellie was consumed by hate, but in the end it was Joel’s love that saved her… by extension it saved Abby too
"Hate exists because love exists" I never even played any of TLOU and I grasp this. You hate because you love. You hate to lose what you love. And I love a lot, even people and things I'm not particularly into personally, because I see their value. I see people's value to themselves even if they don't mean much to others. So I hate a lot, too. But I also know to fight only the right fights, and wisely at that, including knowing where I'm out of my depth. I'd gone through much of the same stuff as J. I'd learned how people think and thus how, if possible, to change them if need be. I get that everything's connected and that even the little things can matter. I'm still not perfect in all of this, but damn me if I'm not trying.
SO GLAD that this was your take away from the game. This was the narrative, this was the intention of the people who made the story. I’m still convinced to this day that the people who hated either didn’t play this game at all and followed the views or were just blinded by their fandom for Joel. Showing that revenge always comes at a cost and that in a world like that, NO one is righteous or inherently unjust. People TRASHED this game simply bc a favorite fictional character of theirs died when anyone with any base understanding of story structure and and fiction could have predicted this would happen. Joel has played his part and this was the next needed step. As much of a cool game that a fanservice-ey game of Ellie and Joel would have been cool it wouldn’t have truly grown the characters and narrative in an effective way like this game did. And people were mad that they didn’t get that fanservice-ey game when in reality that’s all it would’ve been. A fanservice filled game that has no direction and is a rehash on a game they already made. Instead they made yet another genre defining masterpiece. I hated Abby at first too partly bc everyone else did but also bc I was SUPPOSED to hate her bc this is being seen from a different PERSPECTIVE. And this game shows that at its core it’s all about perspectives and you come to empathize with both Abby and Ellie. These base level gaming fans just can not for the life of them appreciate well crafted and cared for art. Just glad you had this takeaway
@@bookerdewitt2022 so you’re saying EVERY single street fight in the history of the world ended in someone dying??? That’s not even close to true. Seems like YOU wanted Ellie to kill her and therefore YOU were unhappy. But in reality the ending stayed true to the themes of the game, Ellie allowing her to live was the much harder decision at that point, she was literally fighting a corpse
If only it saved the hundreds of people she killed along the way. But nope, finally gets to the one person who ruined her life and that's where the rampage stops. What.
The story is OKAY , i think the main thing is that part 1’s story is SO good that almost anything couldn’t live up to the hype . The one thing about TLOU2 that upsets me is there’s no factions
you don't tell me Joel was a bad influence cuz he wasn't willing to talk to Ellie about Tess at the end of the game it showed how Joel was morr open towards ellie cuz he started Talking about Sarah when in a previous scene he didn't wanna talk about it to tommy or even take the photo from him
No doubt, I did say in that part that following the farm house scene he was way more open with her, but I just meant that it already been drilled into her that bottling up your emotions is what you do instead of addressing them earlier in the first game. This is only reinforced when Joel gets defensive and shoots her down when she confronts him about the lie. In that case, he’s just defending the lie, when he’d otherwise be okay with her being honest with him. I don’t think Joel is a bad influence on her, just that some of his worse traits have rubbed off on her.
@@JsReviews well that's the thing i think ellie should've been mad at Joel for lying to her all this time instead of being mad at him for saving her life cuz even then the Fireflies are crap for immediately rushing things instead of doing further tests on her and they didn't even wake her up to give her consent on this or anything even if that wasn't joels motivation a vaccine would still have not been able to spread worldwide. how do we even know if the fireflies aren't gonna just use it on themselves? and even then all the vaccine does it protect you from zombie bites and spores. the zombies are still out there tryin to kill you heck why should i trust marlene at all?
I agree with all those points. The Fireflies definitely weren't to be trusted and also handled it as poorly as humanly possible. I think Ellie's anger with Joel is justified, as I had said in the video, good relationships aren't built on lies. Especially when she gave him a chance to tell the truth in the hotel flashback. I think Joel did the right thing for a plethora of reasons, his lies were the one part where I just think he went wrong. Ellie was totally in the right to be mad about that, but let herself fester in that anger for far too long, since she never stopped caring about Joel, obviously. Just a really complicated dynamic between them.
I agree with most things you said except for how Abby is presented. Abby’s section of the campaign comes across as very emotionally manipulative such as the WLF dog. The creators of TLOS2 said you’d never have to kill a dog in the campaign but as Ellie it is mandatory and then they immediately have you play with that exact dog as to say “Abby good, Ellie bad”. The problem with it all is that if you feel both characters are justified for wanting revenge then no player will ever care for Abby and her section. So you never stop see it as it’s a new perspective, because arguably they are the same perspective “revenge” and when you invest the player in Ellie’s revenge only to remove that option from them the game feels like it’s message rings hollow and the story picked a favorite that being Abby.
Maybe it's because I don't hold the same level of love/protectiveness of animals like a lot of people seem to do; but I just can't understand the "Abby protect dog, Ellie kill dog" bit.
@@aceofsharks9837 it’s the cheapest way to get players to go “I can’t believe you killed an animal! Let alone a dog! You’re bad and now I hate you cuz I fucking love dogs and dogs are always innocent!” Same thing with Mel, the pregnant lady. Get you to hate Ellie because she killed a pregnant lady. It’s all lazy writing
@@voids4818 Hmm. Guess I just formulate my opinions on characters differently. Like, I never grew to hate Ellie at any point. Every big moment of tragedy/horror just made me think about how it'll weigh on her mind, rather than reshaping my view of her. I came to care about Abby equally to how I cared about Ellie in the first game, though.
Abby had just as much of a reason to kill Ellie in the theater but she let's her go, and nobody says anything. Ellie let's Abby go and everybody freaks out. And they're not painting one side as good or bad. Ellie kills the dog and Abby's friends and Abby kills Jesse, Joel and shoots Tommy and was going to kill Dina. How is that Ellie bad, Abby good?
Personally a bigger issue with sympathising with Abby is that we forget her father’s organization were not remotely good people. Sure they might’ve had good intentions, but good intentions don’t justify horrible actions, they including Abby’s father was fully willing to dissect and kill a unconscious young girl without her consent or say on the matter for a maybe cure that wasn’t 100% guaranteed. Hard for me to feel bad about Abby’s father’s death when her father was a horrible person.
such a great analysis, truly. straight up almost teared up at the end. already appreciated the story of tlou2, but I appreciate it so much more after this vid
Talking about your toxic internet gamer culture segment of the video I thoroughly disagree with your take on this whole thing. As a reviewer as a Critic you of all people should understand the necessity of critiquing something. Just because someone makes a comment or even a video about something does not mean that thing is their entire life whether that video or comment happens to be positive or negative. Someone can make a five or six hour video of why Toy Story 4 or Star Wars The Last Jedi or whatever is a horrible movie and still have a wrench productive life just cuz they made a video like that does not mean that they have no social lives or anything and making comments like that is honestly one of the most Petty things that you could do because you're just accusing people who don't like something of having no lives. Are there people like that? Sure but that doesn't mean that that is the majority and making comments like that as though they are the majority simply is uncalled for. People who don't like The Last of Us Part 2 have good reason for not liking the game but just because someone makes a video on why Last of Us Part 2 is a horrible story that completely assassinates everything people liked about the first game doesn't mean that that is their entire life just as your hour-and-a-half-long video of the same game talking about why you like the game is not your entire life.
Yeah, I was fine with the video until he talked about that part. At the beginning of that part I was like "Yeah, those attacks on those actors and writers is wrong. Don't threaten them."
@@JuanPablo-su6vw from my experience most people who made videos or comments on something they don't like are just doing it because they don't like that thing and they want to express why they don't like it they don't make it there entire life. And I would know there's plenty of things that I hate that I have made tons of comments or videos about but those things aren't my life and a lot of his comments on this sort of thing really just come off as stop complaining about stuff go out and touch grass
@@GerardoFirestorm oh yeah I agree that some people take it way too far but he talks about it like it's the majority of people or nearly everyone does stuff like this when in reality it's most likely just a very vocal minority he also talks about the criticism of Last of Us Part 2 or whatever as though it is all bad faith criticism when there is a very real argument to be made that the only reason Joel even died in the first place is because he was acting out of character when we see that before the Apocalypse he was already shown to be a very Advent Survivor doing things that were seemingly very cruel for the sake of surviving and protecting those close to him it's very hard to believe that he or Tommy for that matter would just willingly give their real names out to anyone not to mention the fact that it's hard to believe that Joel would just stand there and take all this abuse without trying to fight back when he now has something to fight for.
This Game cannot be a Masterpiece just for the main fact that the story is the most important aspect of this kind of games, and this Game not only fails to execute it's main pieces correctly, it fails to understand what kind of story the first Game was trying to tell and by that it fails as a sequel as well. But could we have expected something else after the series of idiotic narrative desitions made in just the first 2 hours?
@@WarpChaos The fact that Abby bites off Ellie's fingers and robs her of the ability to play music and sing, is beyond disgusting. Her art could have been her saving grace but Abby takes that away too. Neil simply wanted to write Ellie and Joel out of the story and have Abby supplant them. Abby doesn't even stand on her own as a a character because she is only negatively defined by Joel and Ellie's story. Its a huge failure.
@@WarpChaos After you beat the game, the start screen changed to sunrise and shows firefly base in the light. So Abby literally gets the happy ending and light represents her end of the story. Ellie puts down her guitar and walks into the distance, alone, miserable and hopeless with no recourse. Abby, who tortured a stranger after saving her life and enjoyed killing scars for fun, is somehow morally grey.
@@WarpChaos you projecting your views into the creators is the problem, you just take away the most uncharitable conclusions for the characters and then get mad at it
The first game was such a warm payoff in this destroyed world that looking back there good and sad memories of it. This game it just feels dull dark and leaves you feeling depressed. Sure you can say its good since it made you feel that way but it not special compared to the first making you feeling satisfied and hopefuly and happy for the characters in a sad world like the first
The Last of Us part 2 has some of the worst pacing I’ve witnessed in a game. The game's attempts to have you sympathize with Abby and her crew are so blatantly manipulative and fall so flat. The mid-game ability and weapon reset hurts one of the game's few positive aspects. I could go on but time and a reply have only reaffirmed how bad I think this game is.
Honestly this, TLOU2 tries hard to manipulate you into feeling bad about your actions like killing the dog via QTE then seeing Abby happily playing with it in a flashback but jokes on them I felt nothing since the game doesn't give me an option and I am emotional divorced from Elle's actions That and like how many dogs have you killed at this point? One more isn't going to change anything no matter the amount of manipulation. I felt worse killing random NPC enemies then any of Abby's crew
The complains about pacing are severely overstated in my opinion. The only plausible critiques of the pacing are the ones that are about the switch to Abby and the epilogue. Other than that, the pacing is fine. Both Ellie’s and Abby’s section individually are paced well, but looking at the whole game, I can see people’s issues with the switch to Abby in terms of the overall pacing. But I personally don’t think the pacing is the worst ever.
I’ve been one of those hard haters. And I think it comes down to my personal experiences, my own issues, my upbringing, and being raised by a sensitive mother, and an angry father. And hating the bad side of humanity. Through your video I recognised that the last 4 years I never fully forgave Naughty Dog for this story and feel so bitter towards it. And watching your video had opened my eyes a bit more on the story. And you made some beautiful points. Thank you! Some people won’t probably care to read. But I’m writing this purely for my own benefit to get my thoughts down that I’ve been harbouring for 4 years. On my first play through I was so set out on killing Abby, and the only part in the entire game when I questioned myself was seeing her strung up. I felt sorry for her. But it didn’t wipe out her crimes in my eyes. And having attempted myself in real life to befriend enemies and understand them after the fact… it did only make me feel even worse once that person stabbed me in the back once again. I think I’m also quite a sensitive person and a slight people pleaser. So I may hate someone to my core, but I try to befriend them to change my mind. Sometimes it works but it’s usually been at the expense of my mental health and looking like the stupid one for even trusting them or thinking we could become friends. --Anyway back to the game So I got to a point of like “ No fuck it, you’re strung up, you want me to feel sorry for you? Bitch no you didn’t give mercy to Joel when I begged you to stop and now you want my help? You’ll probably just try to kill me once I save your life like Joel saved yours and you killed him anyway, go fuck yourself” that was my stance on it at the time. And with regard to being sensitive. Although I was 21 when I played this… watching the torture scene of Joel gave me legit nightmares, flashback images, panic attacks, I felt sick and would cry. The world is already a dark place with monsters of human beings and seeing somebody I love (even though he’s fictional) be tortured like that really mentally affected me. But I was getting the images of him being mutilated and murdered flashing in my head years after I played the game. And now can no longer watch anything to do with those cutscenes, I see the blue hue and I’m like nope… so I skip the cut scenes. But then the game continued to shock me into seeing him by flashing it on the screen randomly. And force me to hear his screams again. Soon after the game came out one of my family members was brutally murdered in real life. Which then it hit home even more. And it felt like a bad omen because then suddenly after playing this, my family member is murdered in a very horrific and violent way. So I guess I have my reasonings for being so angry at Naughty Dog for making this, because it fucked me up mentally. Because once I saw it I couldn’t un-see it. It fucked with my head. Even the only torture scene in the first game was off screen. And I squirmed a little over Joel stabbing his knee. But it then just cuts to black. We don’t see David’s face either after she butchers him. Where as this showed us Joel’s torture and the gore detail of it and I just felt so sick. I think it went too far, what started with yeah you know what’s going on to let’s make a snuff film and show you the torture and the brain matter on the club and blood spurting out of his brain and his skull caved in… for me went way too far. And that ultimately for me is what made me a huge hater, because i felt like i had just seen a real torture scene. Which affected me deeply. Also I felt so much hope in the first game… Joel emotionally became a father to me, who protected. I play games to have fun, to unwind, to feel happy… and to then buy the last of us 2 after hyped about the trailer “you think I’d let you do this on your own” and for Neil to say “nobody loves these characters more than we do! Trust us that we will do what’s right by them”. I felt so excited and happy… but then only to feel like I’m watching a snuff film of torture, murder and misery porn. Felt like a real punch to the gut and utterly betrayed by ND. I put my trust in them and left with PTSD images, anxiety, anger, depression and a reminder of how dark humanity is. This game came out at a really bad time. We already had a real pandemic going on too. But at the end of the day everyone is handed a different set of cards to play with. I’m not mad he died… I’m mad at how he died and the fact I had to see it like it was a snuff. Only reason I continued watching because I was like oh it’s fine plot armour will come in, he’s been badly injured before he’ll make it through this. While he recovers we will go hunt them down we know he catches up!! Because “You think I’d let you do this on your own” it’s fine!! He’s not going to die because they told us in the trailer he’s there and willing to help!!. But then at the end of those scenes it hit me like a tonne of bricks… wait no that was real he’s gone… oh my fucking god I just watched him get tortured to death. And that’s what bothered me the most. I recognise my hate is mostly residue of my own trauma and I understand some people love how different and bold of a concept it was. Im unfortunately a bit too sensitive with my own trauma which overshadows the l story. I wish I could love it as much as others did. But I found it way too depressing and triggering. Anyway that’s my piece. If anyone did read this long ass comment of my trauma dump 😂 thanks for trying to understand my perspective ❤
By the very second I read the title I spat out my drink in shock. But I have loved watching your honest reviews for years. So I'll hear what you have to say.
I got into your videos from your metalgear series and am still here because your personality is so genuine. It's super cool to see you have a deeper personal connection to the subject matter. Keep up the great work my guy.
Here's the thing with the Last of Us Part 2, it's a game heavily focused on the narrative. Yes, if we're going to go off the gameplay improvements and the graphic and audio fidelity compared to the first one, I would consider this a masterpiece. However, the story, which is the main pillar of the franchise and the game itself is why I don't like Part 2. If Neil and the writing team rearranged a lot of the events in-game and in some cases cut certain story acts to make the narrative flow better and logically make sense to the viewer playing the game, that would've made the game a 10/10 for me.
To be fair, Neil Druckmann IS an egomaniac. His creative output has some progressive messages (although I don’t like how expendable BIPOC characters were in TLOU2)… but in his real life workplace, he is pretty terrible. He overworks his employees and takes credit for their work. I have a friend who was a freelance writer for TLOU1 and she had such a bad experience at naughty dog that she couldn’t bring herself to watch the TV adaptation.
Tbf even before druckman naughty dog was known for being a terrible place to work. The sad reality is that most dev companies are horrible places. Druckman catches heat because he is in the public eye, but almost every other major company is worse than ND. They are just smart enough to not have a public face.
I sympathize with you. I am a staunch defender of Bioshock: Infinite, The Last of Us' rival in 2013. Not even one year after release, it became an internet punching bag, with people throwing bad-faith argument after bad-faith argument in its direction, often misrepresenting the plot to poke holes where they don't exist, or else nakedly refusing to acknowledge ambiguity and surrealism, opting to take the story literally, judging it as a definitive story. And they would even take lines that lead writer, Ken Levine, said out of context (he once said, "I like stories that make me feel stupid", a line that clearly refers to stories that challenge him) to make it look like he had no idea what he was doing while writing the story. If you go back farther, the same thing happened to George Lucas, after Red Letter Media attacked the Prequels. My point is, I feel you. However, as an observer (I've not played the game, and can't judge the mechanics), I find the story lacking. Ellie dropping the map for Abby to find was contrived. Ellie and Dina getting a wounded Tommy back to Jacksonville is a serious problem, since much of the tension in the game's story relies on a lack of resources, so saying that they were able to do something pragmatically impossible offscreen without explanation destroys much of the tension going forward. Further, Joel's decision in the first game was framed badly. The first game left it ambiguous whether Joel did the right thing or not. In this game, Joel is never given a chance to defend himself, while Abby can get away with lines like, "I'd want you to do it, if it were me on the table." This suggests that TLOU II wants you to believe Joel was in the wrong, which betrays the intent of the first game. No, Jole didn't have to monologue, but someone could've called out Abby, and Jole could've, in the heat of the argument with Ellie, said, "You were unconscious! How could you have said, 'Yes?'" or something to that effect. Ellie's decision to forgive comes out of nowhere. I understand the implication of the ending: That Ellie is taking out her unresolved feelings towards Joel on Abby and her friends, so her letting Abby go is her finally forgiving Joel's actions (or, at least, taking a major step). But it still comes out of nowhere in either subplot. Nothing in the present sets up Ellie to even consider that revenge is bad, and nothing in the flashback subplot adequately sets up Ellie to realize that she wants Joel back in her life. So, the final resolution is poorly set up. Most importantly, Abby. It takes a lot to get me to hate a character. You either need to be unaware of how horrible they are, or you need to write them as a Love-to-Hate character (like Umbridge from Harry Potter). Abby? I never hated her. Regardless of whatever political feelings I had towards the story and its treatment of Joel, I never felt anything toward her. She's just bland. And that's a serious problem when you consider that the second-half twist relies on you having any semblance of interest or investment. A boring protagonist makes for a boring character-driven story. Her coin-collecting hobby and her fear of heights felt like cheap gimmicks in place of an actual character, so she's just a plank of wood. I see what the game is trying to do, but it ultimately fails. However, all that being said, I do not have any sympathy for the Hatedom. Their as rabid, incompetent, and unwilling to consider an actual argument as any fanboy, and they deserve to be chastized for it. As I said before, I sympathize with you.
Abby's path to redemption, finding something new to fight for, through saving Lev is exactly what Joel went through with Ellie. This is also Joel's message for Ellie at the end of Last of Us Part 1 outside Jackson. She needs to find something new to fight for. Which is exactly what I believe she went on to do at the end of Part 2. I love that Joel's philosophy is what saves both Ellie and Abby from their darkness. As his actions set Abby onto her path of vengeance and his death set Ellie on her own path for vengeance, poetically it's also his wisdom that sets them both free.
wtf are you on about? did you play the game with your eyes closed. She abandoned the reasons to fight for (her wife and step daughter) for revenge, then gets randome flashback mid kill, doesn't get revenge, loses her fingers so she can't play joel's guitar. At the end she has nothing, no one. It's all gone.
@@Slavic_Snakehonestly the whole point of this ending is that she is free from her need for revenge, as much as she has lost that connection to joel in the loss of her fingers and her ability to play his guitar she can now move on with her life, her telling Abby to ''just take him'' isnt just talking ab lev, shes also talking ab joel, what this whole scene is telling you is that in that moment she forgives Joel, she is finally giving herself room to grow past what happened between Joel and her, he isnt tying her down anymore. that ''random flashback'' isnt there for no reason, its her confronting that decision she made to try and forgive him, abby in that moment (and arguably the whole game) isnt a person to her, shes a representation of that lack of forgiveness, she doesent want to kill abby just bc she killed joel, she wants to kill abby bc she took that potential forgiveness away from her and killing her in that moment would have conformed that. everything bad that happens to ellie in this game is tied to joel especially her decision to leave to go to Santa Barbra, her finally confronting that loss, forgiving him and saying goodbye to him is probably the best thing that could have happened in that moment and in forgiving him abby no longer needs to die, bc the whole point of killing her was to get over what happened between ellie and joel. Also with ellie losing that tie to joel she is able to reconnect with dina as we see when she gets to the house at the end of the game she's wearing dina's bracelet which she would have had to have gone to jackson to get from dina, shes not tied down by joel anymore and shes able to move on in jackson with the people still around to care about her.
This had to be one of my most favorite video games reviews ever. I’m one of the few who actually really loves this game and yo put everything into words so perfectly, I also relate A LOT to not taking for granted someone who truly loves you with all of their heart until they’re gone. It’s something I try to remind myself of with my father when we get into disputes. Anyone can disappear at any moment in life so make sure you enjoy that time with them because they won’t be there forever
I have to disagree with most of your story commentary here, but I can respect and accept the value that this game and its narrative have on you and your personal life. Keep trucking and keep gaming, man. You’re doing good. 👍
@@tomzydaone8976 As much as I despise the game’s story and cannot comprehend its execution and the ridiculous reasons it ended up the way it did, I can’t take the value that a piece of media has on someone, especially in this case when the said value was established long after Justin had already reviewed TLoU2.
@@FiendaroÖ Not really. I disagree with Justin and despise the game’s story and would rather play anything else, but I was still willing to hear him out and respect the connection he has with it. It’s valid for him to have that and it’s nice to see him look toward a brighter future for his content and his life.
@@CaribbeanOlympian I wish more people shared your maturity. I personally love what this story has to say, but I struggle to actually play games like this, in a way that has nothing to do with the challenge.
I'm sorry, J, but I respectfully disagree with this game being a masterpiece. I have no problems with the gameplay or graphics, as they're genuinely great, but the story is structured in a way that becomes tiring (& not in a good way) to follow & could've used another draft or 2 to really iron out a lot of the flaws in it. I have no problems with Joel dying as a result of what he did in the last section of the first game's story coming back to haunt him. That's perfectly fine & a nice case of dramatic irony. I don't think it should've just happened in the first few hours of the second game & think it could've been executed better, but that's a more minor problem I have with the story's writing & execution. Ellie's story, I think, is the most compelling part of the game. It's the most fleshed out & the best-written of the 2 stories in it. However, it ends on a very downer note & feels like the writers were overly trying to make Ellie feel like the villain when, at best, she's an anti-hero/villain. Her want for revenge, I think, is also a bit overplayed with the game patting itself on the back for doing so & it comes off as smug on the writer's parts, intended or not. Abby's story is where I have the most problems with the story's writing & execution. I'm sorry, but Abby's a horrible character & person & the game never lead me to think otherwise despite trying. I read that playtesters during the game's development kept finding Abby unlikable & the devs kept adding or changing parts of the game to try & make her better, but I don't think they ever succeeded before the game came out. 1. She spent 4 years trying to hunt down Joel to kill him. Ok. She has a nightmare still about her dad dying. Ok. Does she ever express regret or anything over killing Joel? No. As far as I can remember, she doesn't. Why am I supposed to forgive her? I know YOU don't say I need to, J, but the game feels like it desperately wants you to like Abby as much as Neil Druckmann does & forgive her for her awful actions in the game. 2. She kills Joel, then Ellie comes after her for revenge & Abby never has a seen moment of reflection where she realizes _she_ caused that to happen, instead turning it back on _Ellie_ instead. Yes, it was when she was angry at her for killing her crew, but that doesn't make it much better. I doubt even if Abby had a more clear state of mind, she wouldn't have still felt that way. 3. She suddenly becomes a nicer person, then grows a conscience with the Wolves & Scars, then grows a kinship with Lev. Ok. I don't care. Abby's still a shit person underneath that as far as I'm concerned. 4. Neither Abby or Ellie have a moment where they talk about why they're doing what they're doing. Ellie never learns that Abby killed Joel because he killed her father rescuing her 4 years earlier. Ellie literally thinks that Abby killed Joel because Joel stopped them from being able to make the vaccine & she never learns otherwise. Abby likewise never learns that Ellie saw Joel like a father because of their journey 4 years prior & how they had a falling out, then she took him away from her before they could fully reconnect. Some people may ask why those matter, or say that it's more realistic or something that they wouldn't find these things out, but this is a written story in a game, not real life, & they never get humanized to each other as a result of these beats missing from the story. Narratively, the climax of the game is left empty without them. Also, the use of flashbacks is way too much. Generally, you don't wanna do those too much in a story. Flashbacks are for revealing information, or showing an event that happened before where it comes in takes place. The game has way too many of them & they can last way too long. Uncharted 4 also used flashbacks, but they weren't as frequent & are used to gauge intrigue or provide new information to the players rather than pull the rug out from the player for some type of gut punch. That became tiring very quickly. Like I said, I think the game could've used a few more drafts to iron out the flaws, or another writer who was allowed & wasn't afraid to tell Neil Druckmann what didn't work about the story. I can see someone telling me that Druckmann is open to constructive criticism, but the way I see it, the game's story is the result of a lack of essential internal constructive criticism. As said in J's review, some essential longtime ND people left after the bad crunch time of Uncharted 4 & even more people left during the development of TLOU2. The story of this game is a reworking of the original pitch of the first game's that Neil wanted to do, but the other people at ND wondered why Joel would go across the country for vengeance & they redid the story into what we got. As a narrative, I see what the game wanted to do. As a story, I think it's really badly told & is missing important story beats. Uncharted 4 also dealt with themes of obsession, losing a loved one, vengeance, etc. However, it was written & executed better & nothing felt illogical or took you out of the story. In fact, the writing worked in the game's favor. The writing in TLOUP2 works against a lot of what it wanted to do. This is how I see it at least.
Great video man. I had the luxury of playing thru LOU 1 for the first time the week part 2 came out so it was a seamless experience from introduction to sequel and I appreciate it because it allowed me to not have this entitlement and preconceived notion of what I FELT the sequel SHOULD be and instead I just took in what the developers put together and the story they chose to tell and I found it amazing tbh. Both games are in my top 5 and I wish more ppl could have experienced it w this lense. Life isn’t fair and we don’t always get what we want. You aren’t some special person who is exempt from life’s ugly realities because you’re likeable or because you feel just in your actions regardless to their outward impact and I love that they didn’t tap dance around that.
Everything about this game is so beautiful. The soundtrack is top notch, a fantastic mix of original and licensed music. Flawless acting, inspired directions, gripping scriptwriting, and FIRE gameplay. I honestly feel sorry for people who didn't have the same great experience I did. I respect you very much for coming around on this title. Shits profound
My experience with this series is odd. I played the first game, but lost interest and never finished it, not that the first game was bad, it just wasnt my cup of coffee. I wound up using it for a trade-in later. I started to hear about part 2 from various content creators, mostly bc of the story leaks and all the coverage about the crunch going on at ND. And all these content creators are talking about how awful this game is, and how no one should buy it, and Abby is a monster, and Drukman is a hack writer, etc. It became so ingrained in me that im supposed to hate this game that whenever someone brought it up, my first instinct was to get mad about a game ive never played and have zero interest in playing. To be honest, this video has helped me to let go of these resentments because again, im not into these games and am not interested in going back to them. Im indifferent to the series at best. But I will be forever salty that TLOU2 robbed Ghost of Tsushima of the awards it rightly deserved! XD
@@William5000000 Dude, are you MAD! Ghost of Tsushima was clearly the best game of 2020 and is an incredible stand-alone game. IMO, the journey of the character was handled so organically with great music, artsyle, combat, charecters, custimization and top tier storytelling. It was def robbed. Another 'average game' is an insult, just say it wasn't your cup of tea.
ok, a lot of great games came out in 2020. All of them at some point deserved game of the year. TLOU2 made people mad to emphasise us vs them mentality, final fantasy remade a beloved game to introduce new people to the franchise while keeping old fans happy, doom eternal perfected doom 2016 and was a good ass game. Animal crossing came out at a time people needed it to it provided comfort and social interaction to people because we couldnt go outside. Hades provided a game with a constant addicting gameplay loop for people to get lost in... Ghost wasnt robbed it just came out in a packed year where games did soo much so this notion of ghost being robbed is lost because all games that year DESERVED that title...
@@koolerman4443 It wasn't cinematic enough, it had too much gameplay and it didn't look like an hollywood movie, so it wasn't a good enough "moviegame" for the casual audience and the viodegaming critics, sadly.
If by masterpiece you mean its got the most beautiful graphics of any game today, then yes, its a graphical masterpiece. The story is just bad though, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions I guess. The reason the first game was so well received was because the story was simple. It didn't try to push any narratives or do too much. It was a simple father and daughter(like) relationship and their journey together.
The graphics aren't beautiful. They're just realistic. Actually beautiful graphics would look something like Guilty Gear XRD or Melty Blood: Type Lumina or Hollow Knight or Persona 5 or Cuphead or the Ori games.
@@wesleybcrowen sorry, it's not, uncanny realistically looking visuals are not masterpieces, they are modern technology. Looks good? Yes. But that's it, TLOU2 looks worse than GoW or Spider-Man (to keep it in Playstation) objectively, it's just mud and sweat with no colors anywhere. Technological marvel and good looking? Again, yes. But not a masterpiece, that is reserved for especial things. The only special thing of TLOU2 are the writers.
what a fantastic video. you've encapsulated my thoughts about this game and them some so well. i adore both of these games and i'm truly sad that so many seem to look for reasons to hate on part II when really they just never gave it a real chance. (a lot of fair criticism aside) thanks for spreading the good word. i hope you got some people to replay it with a more open mind.
The Last of Us Part 1 is a game that made me enjoy all the characters. The Last of Us Part 2 is a game that made me hate all the characters. Part two has good gameplay and Graphics but I honestly couldn't give two shits about anyone at the end of that game with exception of maybe lev and Tommy and even then I didn't find them that compelling by the end. When it was all over I hated Ellie and I hated Abbey and I honestly didn't care if either one of them died. It's a pretty unique thing to make me hate a character I once loved but dammit if Neil didn't succeed. I think the only way I'd be interested in a part 3 is if it was just about a whole new set of characters because I don't give a crap about these people anymore.
Why didn’t you hate Lev and Tommy? They was accomplices! I say that not as a hater, I loved all the characters and I think your reasoning for disliking them is perfectly valid. I’m just trying to push the envelope a bit
@@someguy9345 I didn't hate Tommy because I can understand his reasoning for wanting Revenge for Joels death. Much like Joel he was already past the point of being a truly redeemable person so I feel his character wasn't mishandled when he went on a Warpath. And lev isn't involved in the whole revenge plot and is just more of an outcast so I didn't really have any reason to hate the character.
Love this analysis/review!! I only just got into Last of Us in the last month (knowing absolutely nothing about it beforehand) and now it's safe to say it's my new obsession until the further notice. I've played the first game twice, about to do my second run on Part 2, and have watched the HBO series and most, if not all, the behind the scenes content. At the end of the second game, I was so emotionally exhausted that I was fighting tears through each blow Ellie was giving Abby in the end, just wanting all the anger and violence between them to be over. At the end of the game, I was sobbing, and could have sobbed longer but I was already getting a headache from all the stress. The way you explained the motivations behind both protagonists was totally on point, that although outwardly their perspective enemy were each other, but it was in actuality the hate and anger they felt inside that they couldn't contain and control. Also, thank you for being so open and honest about why this game means a lot to you with it's theme of forgiveness and moving on. I think I can safely say a great deal of us can relate to having a strained relationship with a family member, and you equating the ups and downs of Joel and Ellie's relationship with your own experience was very well done.
10:44 I just can't defend the 2019 state of play trailer, The whole point of that trailer and the money shot was to see Joel again and it got me SO damn excited back then, just to replace him with different character in the final game. It's such disgusting false advertising, hiding stuff like making it seem like Dina was the one to die is fine but DON'T create entirely new false scenes just to ensure sales, this trailer alone makes me despise the game even more
@@yosos2 Because they lied to me with false promises to get my money (they opened the pre-orders right after this trailer aired). Regardless of the game's quality they did not have to outright lie like this. It's deceitful and scummy.
@@szero7429All the signs were there they showed you joel coming in as a ghost first trailer they dont talk about him for ages everyone's like where's joel he probably dead people were still excited about the game. They drum up that trailer to throw everyone off. Movies and games do this all the time are you angry at marvel movies for doing the same thing? Or even the first TLOU for saying you never play as ellie when you actually do? its just due to fact that you didnt like the direction they went in and thats fine but there was nothing wrong with the marketing. Joel is still there in some capacity thats what the trailer shows and thats what the game gives.They did not promise anything they did not deliver...unlike other games
@@szero7429 they didn't lie to you, are you a child? You have control over your own money, they showed a gameplay segment with that trailer also, apparently they did have to lie because when people found out that Joel died they lost their shit and send death threats to the creators and actors
@@yosos2 I never said I actually paid for it, thanks to the leaks that came out I knew what what was actually going to happen so I just borrowed the game. But the trailer's intention was to get me excited for things that never happened
I’m heading through this now for the first time. Game is incredible. Some pacing problems, and a few contrivances? Sure, but I just love being in this world, and the journey of its two protagonists is beautifully explored.
I loved this game. And it's fine if others didn't. What I find exhausting though is how there isn't a single comment section discussing anything Last of Us related without a bunch of angry haters coming in and complaining about this game, even years later. I know when I hate something, I don't go out and seek comment sections discussing it to complain about it. I typically just don't talk about things I hate. I talk about things I like. But I've begun avoiding comment sections on articles and videos about Last of Us because of this. I guess I'm making an exception on this, although I'm just leaving this comment without reading the others that are already here. I don't know how hate filled this comment section is. I'm leaving this comment because I saw your video 3 years ago. These are the only 2 videos I saw from you, but it's pretty clear you went through a lot of growth. I'm glad you are in a better place now.
2 is a bad story. 1 is the misunderstood one where people get mad that "he sacrificed the world for one girl" argument and I just see that as the experiment not actually being guaranteed to work and just kill his second daughter. Most if not all people would do the same thing if a loved one was going to die for a "chance" at humanity to survive. I wouldn't let my niece die and probably wing the doctors and leave. The world was already doomed 2 is just bad as it couldn't do "revenge is bad" and "have your revenge" storylines by dropping the ball and thats without getting into the writing and the ending
People also forgot that the Fireflies are a terrorist group, that lied to Joel all the time and in the end tried to kill him instead of giving him what they have promised. So even if they develop the cure, they sure are no good people that will save the world out of good will, they most likely use it as a political tool to gain more power for themself.
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 That's the problem with changing writers or pandering and not having a clear idea I understand both sides of the argument in 1 where if you could be the martyr to save humanity I'm sure some people would do it while their family would not want it to happen and vice versa just rejecting this notion as with enough time they could find another solution to save humans. I mean why not keep the kid alive and take some blood for testing? Skin sample etc. So many options even in that apocalypse of a world
The original game was supposed to have an ambiguous ending like you said. You’re supposed to wonder if Joel did the right thing, and put yourself into his shoes. But Neil Druckman had to go and retcon what joel did into him dooming humanity and the vaccine being a sure fire success. Druckman didn’t write the first game, but he took this franchise and changed it in his image. Even the TV show heavily changed the first games story in entirely poor ways.
@@mattmas6628 pretty much what I'd say so I'll just give you a like as 1 having people argue with the right decision was great while 2 took your choice away as it's bad.
The Fireflies also did this while she was unconscious, so she couldn’t even give her say on the matter. They were just ready to kill Ellie without any hesitation nor gave a damn about her own opinion.
The problem is with Abby is that one she and her are completely unsympathetic considering that Jerry was willing to kill an unconscious Ellie for the suppose sake of humanity but when he was question by Mel if he would do it if Abby was the one on the table and he hesitates and never gives Mel an answer meanwhile Abby is listening to this and agrees with his plan. This is also based the fact that Ellie never give consent to them to do this. This kinda makes Joel actions against the firefly’s pretty justified since they were willing to sacrifice someone just for thier happiness and yet Joel is somehow the bad guy in this story for doing the same thing? Not too much mention how pretty inconsistent Abby is like Joel saves her from a zombie horde but then bashes his brain in but she doesn’t do the same to two Scar children, a group that she has hated for years, kill thier members and even condone killing said children. And there is the fact that Abby never gets punished for her revenge.
@@commie_maybe one, Abby immediately abandons WLF and even call them "you people" clearly casting aside any feelings for them for a person she barely met. With Owen she pretty venomously told him to get over his trauma meanwhile has spent years searching for Joel and the game pretty much acts she was justified. With Mel, she was pretty much cheating on her husband while she was pregnant. It pretty obviously that Abby plays with "Loosely".
@chandllerburse737 they still sided with them long and none of them seem to have a problem WLF also she still condone killing those kids. This was even point out by Mel WLF top Scar killer suddenly has a change of heart and has nothing to do with Owen?
@chandllerburse737 it is the same thing. Plenty of fiction has had some Protagonist hating a group and often times it is personal. Also what about real world example like ISIS.
To be fair Abbey wanted revenge 7 years later, Ellie was willing to drop it after a few days!!! Abbey is not a good person, she knowingly put all her friends at risk just for revenge, many year's later in that world? Ridiculous
Since early 2020 after seeing the leaks, cancelling my pre-order & then watching all of the cutscenes/cinematics of The Last Of Us Part 2 on RUclips after release & vowed that I will NEVER play this game. Earlier this year during February with the hype of The Last of Us HBO Max TV Show And also after playing The Last of Us Part 1's Triple AAA+ Remaster on my PS5 [Still not calling it a "Remake"] I've finally played The Last of Us Part 2 with the PS5 Enhancements installed on the SSD. I've decided to finally man up & get it off my chest out of morbid curiosity and playing it just for the gameplay, even though I already know this story/plot-points and spoiled all the cutscenes for myself And I can finally say that I like the Gameplay, Improvements and there are some legitimate good parts of this game but I still don't like this story and you have to admit it does have writing flaws with it's pacing, flashbacks, developments, character moments, etc. If The Last of Us Part 1 is a game with a 10/10 Story, with 6.5/10 Gameplay. The Last of Us Part 2 is a game with a 5.9/10 Story, with 7.5/10 Gameplay. My overall score of The Last of Us Part 2 it's a solid 7.0/game. I didn't think this game was a 0/10 like some stupid people out there said, but I don't think it's a 10/10 "Masterpiece" either. The true answer lies somewhere in the middle and that's where I stand. Overall good video J. All 1:34:01 of it. 37:23 And I don't mind you camera segment J, in fact I like them! I think it's pretty refreshing. It's like you're almost up there with SomecallmeJohnny with his camera segments. But if you don't like showing your face, then that's fine. I'm pretty camera shy in real life. I think The Closer Look's video perfectly explains in the 1st half of his video on exactly just why The Last of Us Part 2's story is flawed. ruclips.net/video/MvTFF-E5wkw/видео.html&pp=ygUbdGhlIGxhc3Qgb2YgdXMgYmV0dGVyIHN0b3J5
I'm going to save anything that I have to say about the story, because I've talked about this game far longer than I should have, and I'm done trying to explain why the story is bad. If people got a better experience out of it than me, then whatever. However, I will say this, Laura Bailey did not deserve the hate she got for this role. She's wonderful, still one of the best female voice talents in the industry, and on behalf of the overall community, I apologize to her for the backlash she received. And the other thing I want to say, is that this game should not have won game of the year. Not because I think it's a bad, but because a game that caused so much hatred, so much arguing, and literally split an entire fanbase in half, should not have won. So many people were hurt and angry because of this game, and caused so many people to attack each other because they either liked it or hated it. Ghost Of Tsushima, a game that came out the same year, had nothing but universal praise and did nothing, but bring people together to talk about how awesome it was. I also hate calling media a masterpiece. The only thing that I would say in the last 5+ years that could genuinely be called a masterpiece, was Into The Spider-Verse. Nothing is perfect, and a game as flawed as TLOU2, certainly should not be called, a masterpiece.
You brought up people saying “why didn’t Joel tell her he did it bc she wasn’t given a choice?” But completely skipped over that and didn’t argue for or against it. I think it’s a fair argument. Was it THE reason why he did it? Nah probably not. But it is the absolute truth. Would she have gone through with it if given the choice? Yeah probably. But she was never given that choice.
Abby felt like a retcon that the writers expected the player to understand, it didn't work because of what she does and how her story is told. Joel was written off by being out-of-chatacter just to give an excuse for the whole story, and the whole revenge message doesn't deliever anything, with the biggest reason being that the antagonist simply gets away with it after a long journey killing people, something that Red Dead Redemption 2 did MASTERFULLY with characters and story.
I’ve only just come across your channel and your videos on TLOU. I don’t think you’ll read this but if you do, I just wanted to say I hope you find peace with your former self. That person, did the best they could under the circumstances. I hope that you forgiveness. On Ellie and Joel, as we mature we develop a perception of the world that is more in line with truth. One of the harder truths to accept is the flaws of our parents. They are just imperfect human beings. Despite probably knowing all along, this truth was revealed the day she cut Joel off. Ellie was made to wrestle with the fact that Joel stole from her the one thing she believed to be her calling. Great work man! Appreciate the video!
I'm sorry, I like your reviews, I really do, but this is sloppy and is just not it. I can't speak for others, but I feel like internet culture over the last few years is the way it is now due to misinterpretations and miscommunication between multiple groups that lead to misunderstandings. I don't have enough time to go in detail about my full thoughts as to why, but every time I see a creator talk about internet culutre it always feels like it comes from a place of not seeing the bigger picture and lacking nuance.
My opinion on TLoU2 completely changed over time. When the 2020 leaks happened, I absolutely hated the direction the story went. But I cooled my head and still bought and played the game, to give it a honest chance. And I really liked it. Weeks and months passed, and the game still was in my mind, daily. I was listening to the soundtrack almost non-stop. The game kept growing and growing on me, and then, about six months after my first playthrough, I played it again. And the experience absolutely floored me. Just remembering it makes me feel goosepumps. I consider TLoU2 an unparalleled artistic masterpiece, lightyears ahead any movie, tv show or game that has come out in the last 10 years. The pacing, the ways story, atmosphere, themes and gameplay connect are incredible. The more I explore this story, the more meaning I find. It is so much more than "revenge bad". This point of view is just as absurd as saying that Better Call Saul is about "crime is bad". There is so much more nuance, character building, thematic exploration and progression.
Just a quick heads up for future commenters. I get the feeling a good portion of the comments I’m reading are written before they even finish the majority of the video or simply based off the title alone. Not all of them obviously. I have plenty of my fair share of gripes and criticisms for this game but this has been one of the better video analysis of this game so far so I hope you all can actually keep an open mind. Please be kind, you don’t have to agree with each other in order to be respectful. Thank you ^-^
Most of the hate Comments they didn't even watch the video just saw the title. Props to you for being one of the few rational people that actually gives criticism unlike the idiots where their criticism is "WoKe, nEiL sAiD ThIs" nonsense. It's so bad that people would rather discuss games with casuals then so called "fans" gamers need to do better
Or, you can say a game is good or bad and leave it at that. It’s an opinion; You HAVE to understand that no matter how people talk about any piece of media, it will always, ALWAYS be their opinion, no matter what, whether they like it or not. Additionally, I see way more folks complaining about people hating the TLOU series than people hating the TLOU series.
It being good and bad are statements of quality. Whether you liked it or not is subjective. People can like bad games, movies, or tv shows. People can not like good games, movies, or tv shows. Your feelings have nothing to do with the actual quality of something.
Damn haven’t seen like any of your vids since your god tier DCAU stuff. RUclips was doing you dirty on my end. Granted those aren’t topics I’m necessarily interested in but you think watching 50+ hours of a channel would keep that in your algorithm. Still doing amazing work man keep it up.
i'm sorry but you're insane if you really think that. i'll still give this a watch though and see where you're coming from. edit: alright, i take it back. i actually liked your perspective of this game and how it connects to so many themes of moving on both irl and in-game. it's not perfect, but i think there's a good conversation to be had in all this. glad you found such a powerful message in it.
Lol he’s going through that phase where he tries to look at everything super deep, but not everything really is that deep… he’s like 21 yrs old I think we all had that time where we were unsure of our own opinions
@@mattmas6628 it's a video essay all of his content is a deep dive into whatever topic he covers. Look no further than his Teenage mutant ninja turtles videos.
Hey J, I don’t think you’ll respond to this comment, but Capcom released a survey for resident evil fans to fill out in their website and asking them which resident evil game should be remake next. So if you want that Resident Evil Code Veronica remake this is your chance. Good video by the way.
And what I most loved about TLoU 2, is that they show us real humans, acting out of real emotions. It doesen't have to be Ellie or Abby but they showed us how most People would react on what happend. I heard some people complaining on how Ellies immunity wasn't important at all. That was the Point. TLoU was never a Story about the immunity or how the World could be saved. It was always about how Human beeings react in different ways on to different events to happen. Abby became what Joel was to Ellie and Ellie became for Abby what Abby was for her. It was never about a vaccine, this was always just a part of the Worldbuilding. Brilliant Worldbuilding. The cordyceps, the infection, the "cure", it was all just part of cover of this brilliant Book. The true story is within the Pages. And it was about the people. Everything else was just a way to deliver the Story.
I tried 4 years to love the last of us 2 but I can't the gameplay is great but the story pasting and climax are bad and the game is too long. At the end it was just a disappointment
OH MY FLIPPING EFFIN JESUS H.CHRIST!!!! the boat showing the round roof! i just always assumed the rattlers were on the radio and it was a trap to get abby to the them. because the resort is round.
1:34:01 video essay: "People who have time to write comments don't have friends or social connections or family. I wrote an hour and a half long video essay." No hate, but a weird statement in a video essay of this length it seems blatantly hypocritical.
I couldn't get into this game at all. I got it day of release when it came out and dropped it after 4 hours due to finding it extremely boring and finding all the characters annoying and unlikeable. Just not my cup of tea.
I love that you took the time to tell why this game personally matters to you and speaks to you as a person and gamer. Love your content and this was a great watch
When people say “Joel used Ellie to fill the void left behind by Sarah,” they’re not saying he LITERALLY is trying to turn her into Sarah or thinks they’re the same person. It’s just having a daughter to care for at all is what he wanted back, no one is saying he doesn’t love Ellie for who she is, he does, but the extreme lengths he goes to not to lose her is motivated by not having to feel that pain of losing another daughter. I think you vastly misinterpreted that analysis
I don't feel those things are mutually exclusive. And nobody is saying 'literally' - he isn't putting Sarah's clothes on Ellie nor was the video guy saying that was happening. If feel his main point was that he is learning to love and connect again, and is doing that in good faith of getting to know Ellie herself instead of as a proxy or replacement for Sarah. Ultimately, I believe you two agree, but are parsing context and specific wordage.
I really felt that complication with your dad; I have a lot of issues with my own. From your description mine might be a bit more visceral and traumatic than yours, but they're also rooted in a loose relationship with the truth. Watching him struggle with a ton of issues shaped me in a lot of ways. I actively avoid drinking alcohol most of the time because of what I've seen it do to him and other members of my family. And because of something he did about 9 years ago, I've effectively cut him out of my life and unfortunately I think that was the healthiest thing to do. And I hate that, because until about a decade ago, most of my memories with him were good. When I was with him, he was a great dad. Supportive, encouraging, everything I thought a dad should be. But that episode was the culmination of roughly a year of holes being poked in that façade, leading up to a complete shattering. Everything's coated in a layer of doubt, wondering if my perception was ever real, if he was ever a good father. And it hurts because I don't think he was; I think he knew how to act like one, just not how to *be* one. I want my dad back, but the worst part might be that he was never really there. I don't know if I hope we can mend things down the road; frankly I think it may be too late for that, and big part of moving on for me has been making peace with that possibility. What I do hope is two things: one, if we eventually patch things up I want it to be because he's grown and recovered from some of his own struggles; two, if I ever have kids, I hope I can be a better father than he was ever able to be.
Why are people pressed he made a video about what he likes? These are HIS thoughts. If you don’t agree, cool. If you like the game, cool. Where’s the nuance these days? Everything is either the best or the worst. Also Part 1 was a straightforward story and Part 2 was an experimental dive into something different. “We wanted more Joel” cool but more of the same would’ve been too safe. I respect the choice to make it different.
I haven’t played the game since it came out. Love that your bit about the comments is true because I look at your comments section and it is once again polarising.
I believe somehow this game also made me a more empathetic and more poignantly a more FORGIVING person. I used to struggle with forgiveness and why some found it so important, but this game came at the exact moment I needed it in my life.
J, the marketing was straight up misleading to what the story would be, Neil himself lied about it. There wasn't evidence of Joel's death in the marketing, he appeared at the end of the story trailer in the place of Jessie to purposely mislead that he would appear in the present story with Ellie in Seattle. It is a huge coincidence that Abby and her crew were near Jackson the day both Joel/Tommy and Ellie/Dina are on patrol. J it's incredibly disingenuous to discredit the genuine and valid opinions of a significant portion of the fans who disliked many aspects of the story of the game. Part 2's writing is abysmal compared to Part 1. How can a story designed on purpose to spit the fanbase be a masterpiece? Abby gets away with her revenge and never learns any lesson from it. She loses her friends sure but she believes she did the right thing by killing Joel, however Ellie's arc ends up being 'revenge bad.' Dina's role in this story disappears once she reveals her convenient pregnancy and she is sidelined until the theatre confrontation, with her only real purpose to give Ellie a baby to care for and a family by the end. There's no discussion on Ellie's immunity that she revealed to Dina, it becomes about Dina's pregnancy. Abby's crew are insufferable people who have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Abby's 180 to save Yara and Lev and betrayal of the WLF was ridiculous and only served to give Abby her own 'Ellie.' This whole game has manipulated people into believing that it's deep and amazing when its not.
The first game was like this too! You’re telling me that Marlene somehow doesn’t hear Joel and Tess execute Robert?? You’re telling me that Ellie does a complete 180 and acts all happy and chipper three weeks after her best friend Riley dies? How the hell did Ellie keep Joel alive for two months after he impaled himself on a piece of metal? It makes no sense! Also the Pittsburgh Hunters and especially the raiders in Jackson are so cartoonishly evil! It’s pretty much a statement saying “murder bad”! I don’t need to be told Murder bad! I love both games. Are you nitpicking Part 2 because you feel the story is too much for you and you have to justify it by saying it’s objectively bad? It’s not black and white.
@@TheSwilkos Both games are filled with these plot holes, I'm not defending Part 1 either. Part 2 is flawed to the core whereas Part 1 is mostly coherent.
Ehh, I went into this game preparing for the worst and with a massive preconceived notion about how much I'd hate it. By the end of the game, I not only ended up liking the game, but I preferred playing as Abby more than Ellie. Interestingly enough though, I find myself skipping Abby cut scenes, but watching the Ellie ones.
Great gameplay, bad story. And not just because of Joel being brutally killed, but other things too. For example the whole journey where Abby goes to get supplies to save Yara. Such a long journey, fighting the Rat King and all, only for Yara to die like 5 minutes after being healed. Felt completely pointless. I simply couldn't have cared less about Yara and Lev.
the pacing is so horrible, it was all over the place.. having to play in a flash-back within a flash-back straight after a cliff-hanger is the worst idea I've ever witnessed, it just came to a point that I just wanted to finish the game to end the suffering already.. Also, Naughty Dog straight lying in an interview and saying that Ellie would be the only playable character 1 year before release is just straight disgusting. I've tried to enjoy the gameplay alone in NG+ but its very hard when the game is trying to be a depression simulator. This game is a "political message" and its a straight insult to all of the OG TLOU1 fans. Thank you Bruce Straley. You made the best game ever.
For me this was the game that finally broke Naughty Dog’s back as a developer, the story is far too complicated and the length of the game is way too long and honestly the fact that Joel dies doesn’t really bother me it made me super pissed yeah but what annoyed me more was how ND enticed fans of the character back and literally dangled him in front of us so we would fork over our cash only to just kill him off and THEN make us play his killer, I will never understand how people can be fans of Abby and anyone who says she’s a better character than him is fucking delusional
It didn't help in the marketing they showed Joel in a cutscene that was actually a different character in the final game to hide his death. But another factor to me that breaks Naughty Dog's back is also the intense crunch they went through in this game. I also feel the game is too long and would gladly have a shorter game if it meant there was less crunch for developers.
I know that I'm over 7 months late and albeit I come and go around this channel, but you're 100% right about this game about its message about not taking the people you care about for granted. I played this game as well back on release except with having prior knowledge to what happened to Joel and loved it for different reasons. I view this game now in a different light. My biological mother died Just over a year ago and never felt more regret for pushing her away while she was still around. Stopped talking to her around 17 and kept my distance and now that she has passed I never felt so regretful about not spending time with her regardless of our horrid past together. I'm glad everything worked out with you and your father and was able to come up with some sort of resolve with each other because I wouldn't wish this kind of pain towards my worst enemies
With the LOU2, I was one of the people who looked into the leak and found it really bad and did not want to play. Then I saw reviews and I still didn't want to play. I absolutely loved the first game. Then late in 2022, I decided to have closure and try to play the game. The gameplay still is pretty great, except you feel very inferior when playing with Ellie than Abby as your weapons aren't that great. I honestly couldn't care less about Abby. The way the story pacing was just left a bad taste imo. At the end, I hated Ellie's decision. She had everything she could've wanted at that time, but just throws it all away . I didn't care if Joel died. In fact I was kinda expecting him to die. But to have it in the first 15 minutes of the game, sure shock value was there, but it didn't really feel...right. In the end, my only beef with TLOU2 was the story. Everything else was pretty solid and graphics were amazing, but the story is what drove me to play the 1st game like you said in your last video.
@chandllerburse737 yeah I heard that too about Abby being trans. Abby's look didn't bother me, but the other rumors/leaks were blown away out of proportion now that I think about it. I just knew a lot of people hated Abby back then because of that trans rumor.
@@teamwork_videogamer sure, again shock factor is there. But I think it would've been more impactful if it was built up and pacing of the story was different imo. I remember hearing rumors that Joel was going to die in this game, but I didn't care. Joel should die according to certain perspectives of those he hunted down or hurt.
@chandllerburse737 that's nuts. I didn't like it from the leaks I heard because you got to play as Abby after killing Joel and I was like, "Why the heck would I do that?" I personally would think if we got to know Abby before and built up to the moment she killed Joel that would have been a huge impact compared to what we got. That would have been, "Oh shit! She's the bad guy?! That's why she is doing what she doing?"
@chandllerburse737 Doesn't she literally have sex with a guy? You would think said guy would bring something up if Abby you know, wasn't really biologically female? From what I know, the trans bits seem to be a bit overexaggerated.
The ending really bothers me. Ellie sees Abby on the post, cuts her down for a knife fight, when she should have stabbed her to death rather than deciding to fight her in the water. Why would Ellie fight her in the water instead or stabbing or shooting her where she was trapped? And then loses her fingers, lets Abby go and goes home with nothing. It feels like the most manufactured reason for a boss fight. Overall though, it feels like Ellie lost it all while Abby still had someone and wasnt alone. Both characters should have lost it all, not the one we care about the most.
Ellie didn’t kill Abby on sight because her desire wasn’t simply about Abby dying. Abby is basically the manifestation of all the hatred Ellie feels: the hatred she feels to herself for not forgiving Joel and the hatred she feels towards Abby for taking away the chance to forgive Joel. All that hatred and her trauma reveal that Ellie felt she needed the physical brutality of just fighting Abby to the death. And I think it’s intentional that if Ellie hadn’t went to Santa Barbra, Abby would have died, which recontextualizes her mission as a rescue mission instead of revenge mission. Does it matter if one character in a story loses more than another? Abby’s story is about redemption so it’s significant that she has Lev. But it’s also significant for Ellie to lose so much because her story is about self-destruction and the fact that her biggest fear is ending up alone.
A good story doesn't always give you what you want. TLOU2 tells a painful and messy and frustrating story for a reason, because the world of the game (like our world) is painful and messy and frustrating. You don't have to like what happens or agree with the characters' decisions to appreciate that.
I mean I feel like you like a lot of ppl are just really over simplifying things, she obviously hesitated bc at the end of the day she isn’t really doing this from her own will. She’s been mentally forced to take on this journey bc it’s the only thing that she will feel closure. Then she comes to terms what the audience has seen the entire gameplay bc we have BEEN there for ALL of it of ALL sides told, which is that revenge won’t bring you anything it’ll just leave you feeling even more empty with added blood on your hands and she sees that. Not hating on your opinion at all as it’s your opinion but you can’t look at it as a black and white fictional story with a set ending. This is at its core a human story showing the tendencies and flaws that make us human and it’s a very realistic way to end it. She went through with the revenge when after being warmed by everyone that it’s not worth it then is faced with the forever lasting consequences of those actions both physical and metaphorical.
Love the vid and also loved your recent vid on whether or not joel was right. I gotta say it’s very easy to relate to this story for a lot of people because of just how real the dialogue is between the characters. Obviously none of us have had beef like Ellie did with Joel for killign a bunch of people but we all have probably had our moments of rage at something a parent did. For myself I remember my mother caused something that led to a falling out between myself and a girl I was dating when I was younger and she was my first love and I struggled for a long time to truly forgive my mom for what happened but like you said how Ellie not talking to joe caused her nothing but pain it was the same with my mom until I forgave her. Again it’s nothing to much like the game but just that moment where a parent did something for a right or wrong reason but in the end they do care about you and never wanted to hurt you. That to me is one of the big points of this story joel never wanted to hurt Ellie but him lying did and he faced the consequences for it.
I’ve kind of had the opposite experience, at first I really really liked the narrative. But as time has gone on I’ve noticed so many of the cracks, holes and issues with the narrative. I really like the direction, the vision. I just think the execution of it all is really, really poorly done. There’s some moments of brilliance sprinkled in there that are over shadowed by the very poorly handled subject matter. The game I feel like, unintentionally fools you into thinking it’s better than it is, or perhaps intentionally. It relies on your emotional investment to carry the narrative rather than just having good writing to hold itself up. A good example of this would actually be the ending of the game. If you successfully connected with Abby as a character, you do not want Elie to kill her and you would rather her let her go, so for people that enjoyed Abby, they feel like the moment is earned. The issue with it is that Ellie does not have a single reason to spare Abby. Ellie doesn’t actually know anything at all about Abby other than the fact that she killed Joel and that she was a firefly. She doesn’t even know that Joel killed her father, she just assumed it was because Joel made the cure impossible. I have no issue with Ellie sparing Abby whatsoever, that’s not the issue with that scene in particular. The problem is that there’s nothing in the games narrative to build up to this revelation, it just happens on a whim and hinges entirely on weather or not you liked Abby for the moment to work. So it ends up fooling you into thinking the narrative and writing is tight and coherent when it’s not. There are so many examples throughout the games narrative that you can point the same exact logic to. Where it relies entirely on your emotional investment rather than the narrative actually being coherent within the context of the story. It took me a really long time to realize I was more in love with the last of us 2’s themes, ideas and overall vision rather than the actual execution of the narrative in of its self. I would really like to see a Directors cut version, a refined version of the narrative because I fully believe that it could definitely work and actually be a lot better than it currently is. I just think it needs some revisions and rewrites and some additions and maybe a few cuts. Same story, just improved. Gameplays phenomenal though, pretty much everything else is 10/10 quality. It’s just the writing that needs some polishing and refining. Really I think the appropriate word here is “manipulation“ but not so much in the sense that “I am angry that the game is trying to make me empathize with someone I hate“ but more so that it manipulates you into thinking the writing is solid when what it’s really doing is hinging everything on your emotional investment and that’s what’s doing all of the heavy lifting rather than the narrative actually being fully cohesive. Bunch of half measures and half baked under developed reasons and excuses for plot revelations that more often than not fall apart when you think about most of it for like 5 seconds. Abby’s character arc feels rushed and sloppy and not very well thought out, the time we do have with her feels underutilized. I’m overall just indifferent to her. I don’t hold any strong feelings towards Abby one way or the other and that kinda sucks. Really hope a directors cut does exist. I wanna see TLOU2 reach it’s full potential. The game we have now feels like a rough draft version of a much better story. All of the ideas and concepts are there, just not the proper leg work to flesh it all out to be as good as it could’ve been.
I had a similar experience. Actually loved the game at first. But Imo the game fools you because it has absurdly high production values and its visually stunning. Also the acting and cinematography are at the peak of the indsutry from a technical standpoint. Its an accomplished VISUAL masterpiece. Its hard not to be in awe of the technical aspects of the game. The writing, script and general creative direction of the story are abhorrent ,and it shows beyond the initial wow factor.
*>"A good example of this would actually be the ending of the game. If you successfully connected with Abby as a character, you do not want Elie to kill her and you would rather her let her go, so for people that enjoyed Abby, they feel like the moment is earned. The issue with it is that Ellie does not have a single reason to spare Abby. Ellie doesn’t actually know anything at all about Abby other than the fact that she killed Joel and that she was a firefly. She doesn’t even know that Joel killed her father, she just assumed it was because Joel made the cure impossible."
@@FraserSouris I mean we don’t actually know what Nora told her, we never see the conversation. We could assume that maybe Ellie knows but considering the first thing she says to Abby in the theater is “there’s no cure because of me I’m the one that you want” which implies she’s connecting it to her survivors guilt and desire to be a martyr. If she knows that the main motivation was that Joel killed her father, that is not something the narrative ever actually tells us and it is something we have to assume which means at a baseline level it is an inconsistency in the writing. The thing is is that with Ellie sparing Abby, In every review I’ve ever watched of this game, or every reaction to the ending from a lets players play through, I’ve always heard so many different interpretations of why Ellie let Abby go. Which tells me that the narrative doesn’t give you any reason whatsoever as to why she did it. It’s people drawing their own conclusions. That’s not inherently a bad thing however what I am trying to say is that as far as what is written and what is there in the narrative, there isn’t really anything there, which, as I said hinges entirely on your emotional investment above all else. I get where you’re coming from but almost all of what you’re saying is your own interpretations or your own fillings for the blanks the narrative left open.
@@Sev3617 tbh the game gives plenty of reasons that ellie lets abby go, any one of them is good enough for most people to focus on mainly which is why you see so many interpretations, its just people talking ab which aspect of it they connected w/ most. like for me personally my fave aspect is that ellie letting abby go is basically her forgiving joel and allowing herself to move on from him and she doesn't kill abby bc killing abby was never the actual point of her whole revenge plot and we see that through her remembering the day she decided she would forgive joel. tlou2 goes at storytelling more like a tv show or movie then your average game and honestly expects you to treat it like a tv show or movie, the acting and context clues are more important then what the characters directly say and the game treats its audience like adults by expecting them to understand that. this isnt to put a downer on other games, hell Wolfenstein is up there as one of my favourite franchises but acting as if the game not giving a solid main reason for not killing abby is the same as not giving a reason at all is just ignoring where the game expects the audience to meet it and the style of storytelling it worked along
22:26 The thing that interests me most in this moment is that you can actually hear Abby fighting the Rat King on the other side of the door while Ellie is beating Nora to death. When the WLF soldiers chase Ellie and Nora down to that level you can hear them asking aloud why the power is turned on. It's because Abby turned it on.
The entire time Ellie was beating Nora to death trying to find Abby, Abby was on the other side of the door fighting for her life.
That is fascinating. I knew you could hear the Rat King on the other side, but never knew that’s why the power was on or that it was actually Abby fighting it you could hear. Cool bit of trivia, thanks for sharing!
That is horrifying
The parallel stories was brilliantly done.
That's so stupid.
Anyone crazy enough to send actual hate messages and threats to actors who play fictional characters is not the kind of person you're going to reach, no matter how thoughtful and right your message is. A person like that is unwell and likely can't tell the difference between fiction and real life anyway.
I find myself unphased by harrassment these days. Because here's the thing: harassment is universal, it happens to everybody, but people only care about when it happens to people they like. When it happens to people they don't like they couldn't give less of a damn.
Just look at streamers getting bullied to tears over Hogwarts Legacy and all of the usual suspects ignoring or even supporting it lmao.
@@MrPyroCrabMost of the HL harassers, especially among the ones sending death wishes, are pretenders out to make the whole pro-trans crowd look bad. People are getting wiser and that's the douchebags' counter to that.
It's not so much "they can't tell apart reality and fantasy" as it is "they don't understand how acting works as a process and that small-time actors especially often have to take what roles they can get in order to eat because the job is inherently unstable". They get pissed off when the actor(s) didn't simply refuse to play their direct part(s) in creating the contentious scene(s), thinking they have the liberty to just walk away or push changes because lol they're all rich.
Like the Star wars fans with the sequel trilogy. You can hate and criticize the films,(and I get why people dislike these movies, like mismangement, bad writing, and the overall squandered potential for good films) but sending death threats to the actors and directors does nothing to help the situation. If anything, these kinds of acts are the reason the Star wars fandom gets labeled as toxic, despite the many valid complaints for the new films.
@@PlahaKumarand then that get ofended when the actors and company say “ don’t be racist”
This Has to be the greatest TLOU2 video essay of all time. Everything about it is just immaculately spot on. Props.
Abby would have been more likeable if she wasn't all roided up with hulk arms...🤔
@@EroticOnion23 But that's part of her character development. She didn't start out that way when she was a young girl, before her father's death. Her hate and desire to take revenge drove her to train every day, get as strong as humanly possible, so she could take on anyone standing in her way. And later on in the game, we see her weak again, beaten, sickly, which is the only reason Ellie did even stand a chance against her in their final encounter, though Ellie wasn't in the best shape herself.
Exactly. I loved J's personal story bit the most. Just ties this video together perfectly. A lot of the ability to truly understand this game comes down to personal experience.
@@EroticOnion23 Yeah, that's what makes her character unlikable, not the fact that she's a psychopath who relished in the thought of killing a pregnant woman.
i usually never comment on videos but i just wanted to thank you for stopping the video and talking very openly and honestly about your experiences and how you personally related the story to yourself. i tend to find a lot of comfort in video essays as a means of hearing other people talk about and analyze pieces of media and TLOU is a special story to me, just like it is too many others, and i always found it difficult to understand why SO MANY didn’t like the second story but i think you absolutely nailed the reason. the fact that this story is portraying such a real and human story of love, failure, connection, and struggle we can all relate to it in way one or another and i think it’s very easy to subconsciously see ourselves in characters and because this is such a heavy and uncomfortable story it’s very easy to get dismissive and turn away from what’s being shown and i appreciate you bringing up that very personal realization that you had. the way you talk about this experience is one of passion and deep care for the story and the ways it has shaped and or grown with you and there’s such a beauty to that and it’s very special seeing someone take that approach to reviewing this story.
honestly made my day, thank you :)
I had a hard time getting into the first game because when his daughter got shot, it reminded me of the loss of my daughter. My friend recommended the game and after seeing that scene I couldn’t touch the game again for several years. I still rightfully can’t play the second one for the same reason. I can accept people talking about it but I can’t personally play it.
Why did your friend recommend the game if he knew about your daughter?????? Seems cruel. Even I cried which never happens to me but that scene brought up some old ptsd wounds. My grandma is the only person I have left because I have lost so many. So I get you. Considering it's your daughter which is basically the theme for both games I probably best to stay away. My condolences brother❤
Your friend sounds like a sociopath If they recommended It to you knowing shit like that would happen
Playing a game that reminds you of a trauma should be avoided, as it's better to focus on your mental health than dealing with even more stress.
i feel like the story to this game was told in the wrong order and not only that, this plot for revenge just for her to not even go through with it and return back to left all alone and have nothing, made me sad. i love everything about the game espically the gameplay but the story, needed some work
@@Sinnahh I can see why some people think like you do, but as someone who had no childhood because of a lot of horrible things, who has had to deal with losing loved ones way too soon, the difference in how I think of it is in the realization that revenge will never fix anything. It usually just makes things worse. Which is, IMHO, clearly evident in this story. You only ever start to move on past the grief when you can let go of the idea of Vengeance. This is something I am still learning myself because sometimes it is nigh impossible to let go, especially when you're feeling guilt or regret and are far too good at blaming yourself for everything, even when it's not warranted. I see a lot of myself in Ellie, and for me, having her not walk away from the need to end Abby would have been so much worse and left me feeling even more empty and hopeless. Walking away is the harder thing to do, but if you can manage it, you eventually see a light at the end instead of more bleak heartache.
Just my perspective on it.
57:29 It's actually because Buzz considers it a part of Andy's Room's "culture" to freeze when Andy shows up. It's only a single line so you can easily miss it.
And also, when the toys “freeze” in Toy Story… they’re essentially blacking out or going to sleep. They lose consciousness obviously to not expose themselves in the human world
@@cloudshines812 that just a theory
@@cloudshines812 Except they can still move if they want to. In Toy Story 3, you can tell from Buzz's eye movement when a kid is about to do something he would rather they not. And in Toy Story 1, they do just that to the other, much more deranged kid.
@@skibot9974 You.. you literally see them move in the first film and make the bully kid absolutely terrified. Remember? They absolutely can move if they want to. And it isn't too much of a logical leap to assume Buzz when he thought he was on an alien world just thought that was the culture of Andy's room.
There were scenes in the Toy Story franchise where the toys didn't freeze up whenever an human were nearby, Sid was the very first to be aware of that fact, but couldn't tell anyone as he was too scared.
I think that Joel's Death (controversial take I know) is probably one of the best representation of death there is in gaming, because it displays exactly why people are absolutely devastated when something like that happens. Its sudden, quick, unremorseful, and like that everything continues as normal, there is no dramatic build up, no final tearjerking monologue, its there and done. The way Joel died was incredibly realistic too, in the sense that it was for the most absurd reason and it was when he never expected. It kind of reminds me of Rick's Death from the Walking Dead comic, where despite literally fighting a sea of walkers to protect his hometown, some random mayor's kid just dropped him with a silenced pistol while he was asleep. I find that most games or shows have very little understanding when it comes to what makes death so devastating, usually people are conditioned to think that the devastating thing about death is about death itself, and not the lingering meaninglessness of it
It did but these crybabies won’t acknowledge
I agree wholeheartedly. I think popular media has conditioned us to expect gratifying deaths for beloved main characters but The Last of Us is just not that kind of story. There isn’t even a single death scene in the first game that feels heroic or grandiose - it’s all morbid, quick and shocking. The second game makes a big show of Joel’s death for added impact but it’s still consistent with the rules of the universe. And for what it’s worth, it’s a fucking haunting scene - the sound design, music, Ashley Johnson’s acting, the slow camera movements; it all leaves a lasting impression. You’re thinking about Joel the whole game despite how little he’s in it because his absence affects all of the characters.
I love it when stories don’t make a big spectacle out of someone’s death. Succession and The Wire’s last seasons did that exceptionally well for example.
I hear you, man! The way Joel died was tonally consistent with the world of the game.
Look someone who actually understands the game has been found!
In my opinion, Joel's death was super realistic and true to real life. However it's not good for telling a story, because it feels like it comes out of nowhere just for shock value and to start Ellie's journey. It just feels like lazy writing to me. I see where you're coming from, though, and I respect your opinion.
You can tell who the people are in this comment section that replied before watching the video
This game singlehandedly helped me realize gamer reviews are not to be trusted. Now I don't trust "professional " critics or gamers. I only trust my own judgement
My oldest brother says he enjoyed the story of Part 1 more, but concluded Part 2 has the better gameplay. That seems like a logical assessment, but I've yet to play it.
I feel part 2 has the better story as well. It's longer and more elaborate and fleshed out story. Part 1 is kinda just The Road but as a game.
@@FraserSourispart 2 is just "revenge bad"
@@Slavic_Snake no
@@Slavic_Snakeevery story is that simple when you boil it down to that much, doing so is reductive and just shows us that you’re an idiot with poor media literacy.
@@Slavic_Snake Hey, congrats, you got the main theme down. Did you happen to get any of the other themes? Or you that simple minded and filled with hare you missed everything else. My guess, you missed everything else
I got chills when Senator Armstrong killed Joel with a golf club. Truly the spiritual successor of the smash hit PS3 game Metal Gear Rising.
What we witnessed was the beautiful golf striking technique, passed down by the Armstrong line for generations!
Twisted Metal Gear Rising
@@MrSupersonic2012 This comment is far better than it has any right to be.
@@AdorniWhat a stupid thing you said
@@MrSupersonic2012 I almost died from laughter from this comment lol
My biggest problem with TLOU2 is the way its story is structured. It builds for Ellie's 3 days up to the confrontation at the theater, but then cuts to Abby's story which doesn't even connect with Ellie's that much and takes several hours to build back up to the same confrontation. I really didn't gain anything from interacting with a lot of the characters cause I knew were going to be killed by Ellie (almost all in justified "kill or be killed" situations). The most interesting part to me was the stuff with Yara and Lev because I didn't know what was going to happen to them and wanted to see them survive. Also, I think a huge missed opportunity in the story was that they never brought up the fact that Abby killing Ellie's dad was basically the same thing Joel did to her (arguably even worse since Joel's death was right in front of Ellie).
Also Joel did it just to save his new "daughter", not wanting to see a second one dying. Abby did it just for osbessive revenge, dragging all his friends to a dangerous trip just to kill one single person that they don't know even if he's still alive or not. And even after, she left Ellie and Tom alive just to suffer the loss of Joel, after she forced them to watch hours of herself torturing Joel just for pleasure, before finally killing it. She was a complete psycho.
@@TheMetalOverlord Actually, she let Ellie and Tommy live because they had nothing to do with her revenge. (Cringes) I feel dirty defending Abby. Don't ever make me do that again. I agree with the rest though.
@@youtubecreators384 Yea but that doesn't make sense, knowing that Abby has just intentionally created another "herself" in Ellie. She kill people for basically no reason when you play her, but that time she left Ellie live, knowing that she was gonna chase her searching for revenge? Why?
I personally quite like the story structure. All the people you killed as Ellie were shown as being “monsters” so making us play as Abby for 3 days makes us realise that they were just people surviving in this world
agreed even tho i love tlou2
Look, I know what they were trying to do with the story. Revenge is a neverending cycle that brings nothing but pain. In the end, no one wins. But the way they were trying to get us to sympathize with both sides, it just didn't work for me.
Like when they were trying to get me to feel bad about killing the WLF dogs as Ellie by having us play with them as Abby; it just didn't work for me. Yeah, I have a dog in real life, but even in real life, if a big dog is trying to kill me, I'm going to defend myself, even if it means ending it. Plus the dogs were kind of annoying enemies, so I felt relief when I got rid of them. And I didn't feel bad about killing Abby's dog, because she belonged to Abby.
And then they try getting us to sympathize with Abby. You see why she killed Joel and usually that would be a very sympathetic motivation. But Joel didn't prolong her dad's death. He stabbed him clean in the neck, dead and done. Abby took her sweet time torturing Joel and beat him to death, drawing out his suffering. And in the end, his death didn't bring her closure, so she killed Joel for nothing.
What really pissed me off was when she tolded Tommy and Ellie that they wasted the chance she gave them when she spared them. "Excuse me? Do you honestly not realize why they would track you down to kill you?" Those were my exact words when I heard her say that. And then she was so eager to slit Dina's throat when she learned she was pregnant, because she wanted to get even for Mel's death. But Ellie didn't know Mel was pregnant, and if she did, I think Ellie would've tried to non-lethally subdue her. She killed Mel in self-defense and was horrified when she realized what she did. Meanwhile, Abby is all for killing a pregnant woman and only stops because Lev gave her a look.
And yeah, Abby's relationship with Lev. I can see they were trying a sort of "Joel and Ellie" 2.0 with them, and I like Lev. He's a good character, and I did want to protect him. I just hated that I had to play as Abby to protect him. To me, it just felt like emotional manipulation. Like "Look, doesn't this remind you of something? They are alike after all, Joel and Abby." When I saw how Abby carrying Lev on the beach reminded me of Joel carrying Sarah and later Ellie, I was unmoved. I just saw what they were doing, and it didn't work.
Mel said it best. Abby is just a piece of sh!t.
Now even if the story didn't work for me, the gameplay is awesome. I absolutely love switching between stealth and aggressive play. It's kinda ironic. The theme is violence is bad, but the violence of the game is the funnest part.
@@skibot9974 That’s fair. But it was her eagerness to kill Dina that makes me dislike her.
The whole game can be summarised with: "You're a piece of shit Abby!". She was just unlikeable character even without the torturing Joel part. Besides she got away with what she did and escaped with Lev, even though revenge was supposed to be bad and all that.
@@gertytk5528 To be fair, her actions were the catalyst to her losing everyone she cared about. Sure she got away with Lev, but she has to live with all her friends being dead. The more I think about it, the more I feel that is a more fitting punishment to her.
But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want to stab her while she was tied to that pillar.
Exactly. It felt forced. It should of given the player the options instead. Forcing people to relate to something always has a possible negative outcome and that’s what happened with TLoU 2
Didn't Yara also say "Mel's wrong, you're a good person Abby."
I thought it was brilliant that that line precedes the Tommy sniper encounter because it just shows how emotions can be easily manipulated (in a good way) because of perspective.
Thank you for saying that Joel was a different person since he was living in a "civilization" for a number of years making him not as hard as he was in the first game.
I thought I was the only one who thought that :)
Your feelings on the story and what you took from it align with mine 100%. I also went into part 2 totally blind, had the same disgusted feeling when the perspective changes to Abby midway through, but unlike a lot of people, by the end of my first play through I also didn’t want either of them to die. I just wanted them to talk it out but knew it wasn’t possible. To this day it blows my mind that this game gets so much vitriol….the story was an absolute masterpiece in my eyes.
Is it really that surprising that people don't like such an obviously poorly told story?
I for one like seeing you pop up in the flesh in your videos. Weather you talk about games or bit’s and pieces of your personal life, I feel it adds to your videos. At the end of the day if you like popping up in person in to ur own videos keep doing it. If not, that’s fine too. Rock on dude.
Every game I play after the last of Us 2 just makes me appreciate it more. The gameplay is so good that you can notice how stiff the player characters are in other games.
Yeah this video is going be very controversial. Personally this game had some solid ideas, but overall, it execution left a lotnto be desires and has some major flaws that fans have that can't be shrugged off as "toxic culture."
Well the Nostradamus Js reviews gave us a whole section of the video as to why it is toxic culture. You need to search within to find the Zen of the AbbyZilla and realize this game is a masterpiece.
Can you explain this “toxic culture”???
@@Actionfigure_fit Js reviews does it, I’m not saying I agree with him at all on his stance. I think there can be a over exceeding amount of arguing but then again we all have that right to our opinions. TLOU is still beloved by the majority so for him to be so upset over the “toxic culture” of TLOU is a bit of an exaggeration
@@TB12method”toxic culture” aka facts hurt my feelings
@@unr8ted77 no, angry nerds who kick, scream, and cry about the game. Cough cough
This is the best analysis of the game I’ve seen. Even after all these years, I’m still processing this game, because as with you the first one is my favorite game ever. Keep up the amazing work!
Getting rid of Joel was necessary since his story was finished in tlou1 and needed to fuel the events of tlou2 but my problem is that they got rid of him way too early just to get you hooked into the story.
I also had a problem with how they executed deaths from side characters. In tlou1 the deaths were spontaneous but they had a lot of build up like Sarah, Tess, Sam, and Henry. Unlike in tlou2 where Jessie is just killed and no one seems to care. Felt the same way with Manny when he was shot and Abby just moved on. They don’t carry the same amount of emotional weight as the first game.
Another thing I noticed is that the ending of both games are structured similarly but tlou2 gets more hate due to how in your face it is. In tlou1 you go through this long journey across the US just to end up changing your mind and killing everyone. Same with tlou2 where you go through this long journey just to end up not doing what you set out to do and leaving but this time with nothing in return. They also tried doing an Ellie and Joel bond with Abby and Lev but it wasn’t anywhere near as compelling or touching. Tlou1 was just better at being subtle which I attribute to Bruce Straley’s (co-director of part 1) contribution.
All in all I have always been in the middle wether I like or dislike tlou2 because I see what they were going for and the gameplay itself was fantastic but it wasn’t a satisfying sequel in my opinion.
I mostly agree with the first paragraph. If Joel HAD to die for the sake of the story they needed to do it in a later stage of the game.
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of the story in part 2 is that I felt like they could've done more with his character to be Ellie's mentor. And he just went out too soon in the beginning. Replace Joel's role in that scene with, let's say, dina- and it could've worked just the same. People would get the themes behind it. What we got instead wasn't necessarily the right way to tell it in my opinion
This video has me actually excited for the remaster later this year. I wasn’t originally interested since I don’t remember liking the story. But you’ve made me think that I should give it a proper second chance away from all the toxic discourse
I think they fumbled with the time line here. If they wanted us to like Abby so badly and push the same vengeance parallel with Ellie they should have had us play as Abby before she kills Joel. Have her target and reasoning be a mystery till finally killing him at the end of her segment. I get the message they were trying to push but it was too late then, everyone hated Abby already.
(Im just now coming to this video sorry this is like a 5 month later response lol) I agree there couldve been a better way to tell the story. I think there goal was they wanted you to hate abby when you started her story. I think they wanted people to look more inward and literally walk a mile in the shoes of a person they truly hated and see their perspective. I definitely dont think it succeeded for a lot of people. For me it did. But thats the thing about art. Everyone has their own interpretations and feelings and I think they bet too much on guessing what they could get people to feel through the story
The Last of Us Part 2 is a very heavy game, the murder, the violence, can seem like too much, initially I too wanted to avenge Joel, his death was particularly gruesome (but expected, so it didn’t shock me like it did a lot of people) so many times during the story I wanted Ellie to stop, I saw her becoming unrecognizable, and at points I saw her actions to be just as savage as Abby’s, and I think that was the point ND was trying to convey, all things have an opposing force, hate exists because love exists, Ellie was consumed by hate, but in the end it was Joel’s love that saved her… by extension it saved Abby too
"Hate exists because love exists"
I never even played any of TLOU and I grasp this. You hate because you love. You hate to lose what you love. And I love a lot, even people and things I'm not particularly into personally, because I see their value. I see people's value to themselves even if they don't mean much to others. So I hate a lot, too. But I also know to fight only the right fights, and wisely at that, including knowing where I'm out of my depth. I'd gone through much of the same stuff as J. I'd learned how people think and thus how, if possible, to change them if need be. I get that everything's connected and that even the little things can matter. I'm still not perfect in all of this, but damn me if I'm not trying.
THIS. Exactly. ☝
SO GLAD that this was your take away from the game. This was the narrative, this was the intention of the people who made the story. I’m still convinced to this day that the people who hated either didn’t play this game at all and followed the views or were just blinded by their fandom for Joel. Showing that revenge always comes at a cost and that in a world like that, NO one is righteous or inherently unjust. People TRASHED this game simply bc a favorite fictional character of theirs died when anyone with any base understanding of story structure and and fiction could have predicted this would happen. Joel has played his part and this was the next needed step. As much of a cool game that a fanservice-ey game of Ellie and Joel would have been cool it wouldn’t have truly grown the characters and narrative in an effective way like this game did. And people were mad that they didn’t get that fanservice-ey game when in reality that’s all it would’ve been. A fanservice filled game that has no direction and is a rehash on a game they already made. Instead they made yet another genre defining masterpiece. I hated Abby at first too partly bc everyone else did but also bc I was SUPPOSED to hate her bc this is being seen from a different PERSPECTIVE. And this game shows that at its core it’s all about perspectives and you come to empathize with both Abby and Ellie. These base level gaming fans just can not for the life of them appreciate well crafted and cared for art. Just glad you had this takeaway
@@bookerdewitt2022 so you’re saying EVERY single street fight in the history of the world ended in someone dying??? That’s not even close to true. Seems like YOU wanted Ellie to kill her and therefore YOU were unhappy. But in reality the ending stayed true to the themes of the game, Ellie allowing her to live was the much harder decision at that point, she was literally fighting a corpse
If only it saved the hundreds of people she killed along the way. But nope, finally gets to the one person who ruined her life and that's where the rampage stops. What.
I love the visuals
I love the gameplay
I f*cking hate the story
Facts
Gameplay is mad fun
The story is OKAY , i think the main thing is that part 1’s story is SO good that almost anything couldn’t live up to the hype . The one thing about TLOU2 that upsets me is there’s no factions
Everyone is gonna watch a RUclips video in like 2 years and let them decide that this game is good and the story is good.
this but it do be a story driven game
you don't tell me Joel was a bad influence cuz he wasn't willing to talk to Ellie about Tess
at the end of the game it showed how Joel was morr open towards ellie cuz he started Talking about Sarah when in a previous scene he didn't wanna talk about it to tommy or even take the photo from him
No doubt, I did say in that part that following the farm house scene he was way more open with her, but I just meant that it already been drilled into her that bottling up your emotions is what you do instead of addressing them earlier in the first game. This is only reinforced when Joel gets defensive and shoots her down when she confronts him about the lie. In that case, he’s just defending the lie, when he’d otherwise be okay with her being honest with him. I don’t think Joel is a bad influence on her, just that some of his worse traits have rubbed off on her.
@@JsReviews well that's the thing i think ellie should've been mad at Joel for lying to her all this time
instead of being mad at him for saving her life cuz even then the Fireflies are crap for immediately rushing things instead of doing further tests on her and they didn't even wake her up to give her consent on this or anything
even if that wasn't joels motivation a vaccine would still have not been able to spread worldwide. how do we even know if the fireflies aren't gonna just use it on themselves?
and even then all the vaccine does it protect you from zombie bites and spores. the zombies are still out there tryin to kill you
heck why should i trust marlene at all?
I agree with all those points. The Fireflies definitely weren't to be trusted and also handled it as poorly as humanly possible. I think Ellie's anger with Joel is justified, as I had said in the video, good relationships aren't built on lies. Especially when she gave him a chance to tell the truth in the hotel flashback. I think Joel did the right thing for a plethora of reasons, his lies were the one part where I just think he went wrong. Ellie was totally in the right to be mad about that, but let herself fester in that anger for far too long, since she never stopped caring about Joel, obviously. Just a really complicated dynamic between them.
@@JsReviews can you review the telltale walking dead games?. 2012-2019.
I agree with most things you said except for how Abby is presented. Abby’s section of the campaign comes across as very emotionally manipulative such as the WLF dog. The creators of TLOS2 said you’d never have to kill a dog in the campaign but as Ellie it is mandatory and then they immediately have you play with that exact dog as to say “Abby good, Ellie bad”. The problem with it all is that if you feel both characters are justified for wanting revenge then no player will ever care for Abby and her section. So you never stop see it as it’s a new perspective, because arguably they are the same perspective “revenge” and when you invest the player in Ellie’s revenge only to remove that option from them the game feels like it’s message rings hollow and the story picked a favorite that being Abby.
Maybe it's because I don't hold the same level of love/protectiveness of animals like a lot of people seem to do; but I just can't understand the "Abby protect dog, Ellie kill dog" bit.
@@aceofsharks9837 it’s the cheapest way to get players to go “I can’t believe you killed an animal! Let alone a dog! You’re bad and now I hate you cuz I fucking love dogs and dogs are always innocent!” Same thing with Mel, the pregnant lady. Get you to hate Ellie because she killed a pregnant lady. It’s all lazy writing
@@voids4818 Hmm. Guess I just formulate my opinions on characters differently. Like, I never grew to hate Ellie at any point. Every big moment of tragedy/horror just made me think about how it'll weigh on her mind, rather than reshaping my view of her. I came to care about Abby equally to how I cared about Ellie in the first game, though.
Abby had just as much of a reason to kill Ellie in the theater but she let's her go, and nobody says anything. Ellie let's Abby go and everybody freaks out.
And they're not painting one side as good or bad. Ellie kills the dog and Abby's friends and Abby kills Jesse, Joel and shoots Tommy and was going to kill Dina. How is that Ellie bad, Abby good?
Personally a bigger issue with sympathising with Abby is that we forget her father’s organization were not remotely good people. Sure they might’ve had good intentions, but good intentions don’t justify horrible actions, they including Abby’s father was fully willing to dissect and kill a unconscious young girl without her consent or say on the matter for a maybe cure that wasn’t 100% guaranteed. Hard for me to feel bad about Abby’s father’s death when her father was a horrible person.
such a great analysis, truly. straight up almost teared up at the end. already appreciated the story of tlou2, but I appreciate it so much more after this vid
Talking about your toxic internet gamer culture segment of the video I thoroughly disagree with your take on this whole thing. As a reviewer as a Critic you of all people should understand the necessity of critiquing something. Just because someone makes a comment or even a video about something does not mean that thing is their entire life whether that video or comment happens to be positive or negative. Someone can make a five or six hour video of why Toy Story 4 or Star Wars The Last Jedi or whatever is a horrible movie and still have a wrench productive life just cuz they made a video like that does not mean that they have no social lives or anything and making comments like that is honestly one of the most Petty things that you could do because you're just accusing people who don't like something of having no lives.
Are there people like that? Sure but that doesn't mean that that is the majority and making comments like that as though they are the majority simply is uncalled for. People who don't like The Last of Us Part 2 have good reason for not liking the game but just because someone makes a video on why Last of Us Part 2 is a horrible story that completely assassinates everything people liked about the first game doesn't mean that that is their entire life just as your hour-and-a-half-long video of the same game talking about why you like the game is not your entire life.
Yeah, I was fine with the video until he talked about that part. At the beginning of that part I was like "Yeah, those attacks on those actors and writers is wrong. Don't threaten them."
@@Parooka he doesn't say that, he say don't make your life hating on something. Creating an "hatebase" who want to be on that?
@@JuanPablo-su6vw from my experience most people who made videos or comments on something they don't like are just doing it because they don't like that thing and they want to express why they don't like it they don't make it there entire life. And I would know there's plenty of things that I hate that I have made tons of comments or videos about but those things aren't my life and a lot of his comments on this sort of thing really just come off as stop complaining about stuff go out and touch grass
@@supernew10doh64 its a point to be taken in consideration with how brain dead people can be with something they dislike
@@GerardoFirestorm oh yeah I agree that some people take it way too far but he talks about it like it's the majority of people or nearly everyone does stuff like this when in reality it's most likely just a very vocal minority he also talks about the criticism of Last of Us Part 2 or whatever as though it is all bad faith criticism when there is a very real argument to be made that the only reason Joel even died in the first place is because he was acting out of character when we see that before the Apocalypse he was already shown to be a very Advent Survivor doing things that were seemingly very cruel for the sake of surviving and protecting those close to him it's very hard to believe that he or Tommy for that matter would just willingly give their real names out to anyone not to mention the fact that it's hard to believe that Joel would just stand there and take all this abuse without trying to fight back when he now has something to fight for.
I recommend the channel "TLOU Explained". The real question of this game is "Can you empathize with someone you hate"
This Game cannot be a Masterpiece just for the main fact that the story is the most important aspect of this kind of games, and this Game not only fails to execute it's main pieces correctly, it fails to understand what kind of story the first Game was trying to tell and by that it fails as a sequel as well. But could we have expected something else after the series of idiotic narrative desitions made in just the first 2 hours?
@@WarpChaos The story of the first game is that "love transforms a person."
That is the story of the second game as well.
@@WarpChaos The fact that Abby bites off Ellie's fingers and robs her of the ability to play music and sing, is beyond disgusting. Her art could have been her saving grace but Abby takes that away too.
Neil simply wanted to write Ellie and Joel out of the story and have Abby supplant them.
Abby doesn't even stand on her own as a a character because she is only negatively defined by Joel and Ellie's story.
Its a huge failure.
@@WarpChaos After you beat the game, the start screen changed to sunrise and shows firefly base in the light.
So Abby literally gets the happy ending and light represents her end of the story.
Ellie puts down her guitar and walks into the distance, alone, miserable and hopeless with no recourse.
Abby, who tortured a stranger after saving her life and enjoyed killing scars for fun, is somehow morally grey.
@@WarpChaos you projecting your views into the creators is the problem, you just take away the most uncharitable conclusions for the characters and then get mad at it
@@WarpChaos you are the one mad at a piece of media lol it can't hurt you
The first game was such a warm payoff in this destroyed world that looking back there good and sad memories of it. This game it just feels dull dark and leaves you feeling depressed. Sure you can say its good since it made you feel that way but it not special compared to the first making you feeling satisfied and hopefuly and happy for the characters in a sad world like the first
The original's ending was quite uncertain which made it pretty bleak when you stop to think about it.
Warm payoff? It ends with Joel lying to Ellie about him murdering all the Fireflies and basically destroying any hope of finding a vaccine.
This is such a hilarious comment. I don't think gamers deserve well thought out narratives
Agreed 100x
Sorry but you didn't understand the first game at all
The Last of Us part 2 has some of the worst pacing I’ve witnessed in a game. The game's attempts to have you sympathize with Abby and her crew are so blatantly manipulative and fall so flat. The mid-game ability and weapon reset hurts one of the game's few positive aspects. I could go on but time and a reply have only reaffirmed how bad I think this game is.
Honestly this, TLOU2 tries hard to manipulate you into feeling bad about your actions like killing the dog via QTE then seeing Abby happily playing with it in a flashback but jokes on them I felt nothing since the game doesn't give me an option and I am emotional divorced from Elle's actions
That and like how many dogs have you killed at this point? One more isn't going to change anything no matter the amount of manipulation.
I felt worse killing random NPC enemies then any of Abby's crew
Good for you, I think is a pretty good game
None of this bothered my by any means tho. In fact I liked them
The complains about pacing are severely overstated in my opinion. The only plausible critiques of the pacing are the ones that are about the switch to Abby and the epilogue. Other than that, the pacing is fine. Both Ellie’s and Abby’s section individually are paced well, but looking at the whole game, I can see people’s issues with the switch to Abby in terms of the overall pacing. But I personally don’t think the pacing is the worst ever.
I thought that it was good. It just lasted too long lol
I’ve been one of those hard haters. And I think it comes down to my personal experiences, my own issues, my upbringing, and being raised by a sensitive mother, and an angry father. And hating the bad side of humanity.
Through your video I recognised that the last 4 years I never fully forgave Naughty Dog for this story and feel so bitter towards it. And watching your video had opened my eyes a bit more on the story. And you made some beautiful points. Thank you!
Some people won’t probably care to read. But I’m writing this purely for my own benefit to get my thoughts down that I’ve been harbouring for 4 years.
On my first play through I was so set out on killing Abby, and the only part in the entire game when I questioned myself was seeing her strung up. I felt sorry for her. But it didn’t wipe out her crimes in my eyes. And having attempted myself in real life to befriend enemies and understand them after the fact… it did only make me feel even worse once that person stabbed me in the back once again. I think I’m also quite a sensitive person and a slight people pleaser. So I may hate someone to my core, but I try to befriend them to change my mind. Sometimes it works but it’s usually been at the expense of my mental health and looking like the stupid one for even trusting them or thinking we could become friends. --Anyway back to the game So I got to a point of like “ No fuck it, you’re strung up, you want me to feel sorry for you? Bitch no you didn’t give mercy to Joel when I begged you to stop and now you want my help? You’ll probably just try to kill me once I save your life like Joel saved yours and you killed him anyway, go fuck yourself” that was my stance on it at the time.
And with regard to being sensitive. Although I was 21 when I played this… watching the torture scene of Joel gave me legit nightmares, flashback images, panic attacks, I felt sick and would cry. The world is already a dark place with monsters of human beings and seeing somebody I love (even though he’s fictional) be tortured like that really mentally affected me. But I was getting the images of him being mutilated and murdered flashing in my head years after I played the game. And now can no longer watch anything to do with those cutscenes, I see the blue hue and I’m like nope… so I skip the cut scenes. But then the game continued to shock me into seeing him by flashing it on the screen randomly. And force me to hear his screams again.
Soon after the game came out one of my family members was brutally murdered in real life. Which then it hit home even more. And it felt like a bad omen because then suddenly after playing this, my family member is murdered in a very horrific and violent way.
So I guess I have my reasonings for being so angry at Naughty Dog for making this, because it fucked me up mentally. Because once I saw it I couldn’t un-see it. It fucked with my head.
Even the only torture scene in the first game was off screen. And I squirmed a little over Joel stabbing his knee. But it then just cuts to black. We don’t see David’s face either after she butchers him. Where as this showed us Joel’s torture and the gore detail of it and I just felt so sick. I think it went too far, what started with yeah you know what’s going on to let’s make a snuff film and show you the torture and the brain matter on the club and blood spurting out of his brain and his skull caved in… for me went way too far. And that ultimately for me is what made me a huge hater, because i felt like i had just seen a real torture scene. Which affected me deeply.
Also I felt so much hope in the first game… Joel emotionally became a father to me, who protected. I play games to have fun, to unwind, to feel happy… and to then buy the last of us 2 after hyped about the trailer “you think I’d let you do this on your own” and for Neil to say “nobody loves these characters more than we do! Trust us that we will do what’s right by them”. I felt so excited and happy… but then only to feel like I’m watching a snuff film of torture, murder and misery porn. Felt like a real punch to the gut and utterly betrayed by ND. I put my trust in them and left with PTSD images, anxiety, anger, depression and a reminder of how dark humanity is. This game came out at a really bad time. We already had a real pandemic going on too.
But at the end of the day everyone is handed a different set of cards to play with. I’m not mad he died… I’m mad at how he died and the fact I had to see it like it was a snuff. Only reason I continued watching because I was like oh it’s fine plot armour will come in, he’s been badly injured before he’ll make it through this. While he recovers we will go hunt them down we know he catches up!! Because “You think I’d let you do this on your own” it’s fine!! He’s not going to die because they told us in the trailer he’s there and willing to help!!. But then at the end of those scenes it hit me like a tonne of bricks… wait no that was real he’s gone… oh my fucking god I just watched him get tortured to death. And that’s what bothered me the most.
I recognise my hate is mostly residue of my own trauma and I understand some people love how different and bold of a concept it was. Im unfortunately a bit too sensitive with my own trauma which overshadows the l story. I wish I could love it as much as others did. But I found it way too depressing and triggering.
Anyway that’s my piece. If anyone did read this long ass comment of my trauma dump 😂 thanks for trying to understand my perspective ❤
By the very second I read the title I spat out my drink in shock.
But I have loved watching your honest reviews for years. So I'll hear what you have to say.
He kindof took the wind out of your comment by changing the video title
I absolutely love this game its good to see it getting more love nowadays
It's not getting more love, it's as trash as it was when it released.
the game is awful@@thebombsquadtv6151
@@mattmas6628 Oh god, what was the original title?
I got into your videos from your metalgear series and am still here because your personality is so genuine. It's super cool to see you have a deeper personal connection to the subject matter. Keep up the great work my guy.
Here's the thing with the Last of Us Part 2, it's a game heavily focused on the narrative. Yes, if we're going to go off the gameplay improvements and the graphic and audio fidelity compared to the first one, I would consider this a masterpiece. However, the story, which is the main pillar of the franchise and the game itself is why I don't like Part 2. If Neil and the writing team rearranged a lot of the events in-game and in some cases cut certain story acts to make the narrative flow better and logically make sense to the viewer playing the game, that would've made the game a 10/10 for me.
To be fair, Neil Druckmann IS an egomaniac. His creative output has some progressive messages (although I don’t like how expendable BIPOC characters were in TLOU2)… but in his real life workplace, he is pretty terrible. He overworks his employees and takes credit for their work.
I have a friend who was a freelance writer for TLOU1 and she had such a bad experience at naughty dog that she couldn’t bring herself to watch the TV adaptation.
Bro, that’s terrible. Neil really is a hack!
Tbf even before druckman naughty dog was known for being a terrible place to work. The sad reality is that most dev companies are horrible places. Druckman catches heat because he is in the public eye, but almost every other major company is worse than ND. They are just smart enough to not have a public face.
Hopefully people will watch Grounded Pt 2 - The Making of TLOU2 where this situation is addressed.
I sympathize with you. I am a staunch defender of Bioshock: Infinite, The Last of Us' rival in 2013. Not even one year after release, it became an internet punching bag, with people throwing bad-faith argument after bad-faith argument in its direction, often misrepresenting the plot to poke holes where they don't exist, or else nakedly refusing to acknowledge ambiguity and surrealism, opting to take the story literally, judging it as a definitive story. And they would even take lines that lead writer, Ken Levine, said out of context (he once said, "I like stories that make me feel stupid", a line that clearly refers to stories that challenge him) to make it look like he had no idea what he was doing while writing the story. If you go back farther, the same thing happened to George Lucas, after Red Letter Media attacked the Prequels.
My point is, I feel you.
However, as an observer (I've not played the game, and can't judge the mechanics), I find the story lacking. Ellie dropping the map for Abby to find was contrived. Ellie and Dina getting a wounded Tommy back to Jacksonville is a serious problem, since much of the tension in the game's story relies on a lack of resources, so saying that they were able to do something pragmatically impossible offscreen without explanation destroys much of the tension going forward.
Further, Joel's decision in the first game was framed badly. The first game left it ambiguous whether Joel did the right thing or not. In this game, Joel is never given a chance to defend himself, while Abby can get away with lines like, "I'd want you to do it, if it were me on the table." This suggests that TLOU II wants you to believe Joel was in the wrong, which betrays the intent of the first game. No, Jole didn't have to monologue, but someone could've called out Abby, and Jole could've, in the heat of the argument with Ellie, said, "You were unconscious! How could you have said, 'Yes?'" or something to that effect.
Ellie's decision to forgive comes out of nowhere. I understand the implication of the ending: That Ellie is taking out her unresolved feelings towards Joel on Abby and her friends, so her letting Abby go is her finally forgiving Joel's actions (or, at least, taking a major step). But it still comes out of nowhere in either subplot. Nothing in the present sets up Ellie to even consider that revenge is bad, and nothing in the flashback subplot adequately sets up Ellie to realize that she wants Joel back in her life. So, the final resolution is poorly set up.
Most importantly, Abby. It takes a lot to get me to hate a character. You either need to be unaware of how horrible they are, or you need to write them as a Love-to-Hate character (like Umbridge from Harry Potter). Abby? I never hated her. Regardless of whatever political feelings I had towards the story and its treatment of Joel, I never felt anything toward her. She's just bland. And that's a serious problem when you consider that the second-half twist relies on you having any semblance of interest or investment. A boring protagonist makes for a boring character-driven story. Her coin-collecting hobby and her fear of heights felt like cheap gimmicks in place of an actual character, so she's just a plank of wood.
I see what the game is trying to do, but it ultimately fails. However, all that being said, I do not have any sympathy for the Hatedom. Their as rabid, incompetent, and unwilling to consider an actual argument as any fanboy, and they deserve to be chastized for it. As I said before, I sympathize with you.
You articulated everything so well man!
good answer, now this are actual arguments
Abby's path to redemption, finding something new to fight for, through saving Lev is exactly what Joel went through with Ellie. This is also Joel's message for Ellie at the end of Last of Us Part 1 outside Jackson. She needs to find something new to fight for. Which is exactly what I believe she went on to do at the end of Part 2.
I love that Joel's philosophy is what saves both Ellie and Abby from their darkness. As his actions set Abby onto her path of vengeance and his death set Ellie on her own path for vengeance, poetically it's also his wisdom that sets them both free.
wtf are you on about? did you play the game with your eyes closed. She abandoned the reasons to fight for (her wife and step daughter) for revenge, then gets randome flashback mid kill, doesn't get revenge, loses her fingers so she can't play joel's guitar. At the end she has nothing, no one. It's all gone.
@@Slavic_SnakeStep son*
@@Slavic_Snakehonestly the whole point of this ending is that she is free from her need for revenge, as much as she has lost that connection to joel in the loss of her fingers and her ability to play his guitar she can now move on with her life, her telling Abby to ''just take him'' isnt just talking ab lev, shes also talking ab joel, what this whole scene is telling you is that in that moment she forgives Joel, she is finally giving herself room to grow past what happened between Joel and her, he isnt tying her down anymore. that ''random flashback'' isnt there for no reason, its her confronting that decision she made to try and forgive him, abby in that moment (and arguably the whole game) isnt a person to her, shes a representation of that lack of forgiveness, she doesent want to kill abby just bc she killed joel, she wants to kill abby bc she took that potential forgiveness away from her and killing her in that moment would have conformed that. everything bad that happens to ellie in this game is tied to joel especially her decision to leave to go to Santa Barbra, her finally confronting that loss, forgiving him and saying goodbye to him is probably the best thing that could have happened in that moment and in forgiving him abby no longer needs to die, bc the whole point of killing her was to get over what happened between ellie and joel. Also with ellie losing that tie to joel she is able to reconnect with dina as we see when she gets to the house at the end of the game she's wearing dina's bracelet which she would have had to have gone to jackson to get from dina, shes not tied down by joel anymore and shes able to move on in jackson with the people still around to care about her.
This had to be one of my most favorite video games reviews ever. I’m one of the few who actually really loves this game and yo put everything into words so perfectly, I also relate A LOT to not taking for granted someone who truly loves you with all of their heart until they’re gone. It’s something I try to remind myself of with my father when we get into disputes. Anyone can disappear at any moment in life so make sure you enjoy that time with them because they won’t be there forever
I have to disagree with most of your story commentary here, but I can respect and accept the value that this game and its narrative have on you and your personal life. Keep trucking and keep gaming, man. You’re doing good. 👍
I love comments like this, despite disagreeing you still respect their opinion.
@@tomzydaone8976 As much as I despise the game’s story and cannot comprehend its execution and the ridiculous reasons it ended up the way it did, I can’t take the value that a piece of media has on someone, especially in this case when the said value was established long after Justin had already reviewed TLoU2.
@@CaribbeanOlympian It’s hilarious how this has the exact opposite sentiment of the original comment.
@@FiendaroÖ Not really. I disagree with Justin and despise the game’s story and would rather play anything else, but I was still willing to hear him out and respect the connection he has with it. It’s valid for him to have that and it’s nice to see him look toward a brighter future for his content and his life.
@@CaribbeanOlympian
I wish more people shared your maturity.
I personally love what this story has to say, but I struggle to actually play games like this, in a way that has nothing to do with the challenge.
I'm sorry, J, but I respectfully disagree with this game being a masterpiece. I have no problems with the gameplay or graphics, as they're genuinely great, but the story is structured in a way that becomes tiring (& not in a good way) to follow & could've used another draft or 2 to really iron out a lot of the flaws in it.
I have no problems with Joel dying as a result of what he did in the last section of the first game's story coming back to haunt him. That's perfectly fine & a nice case of dramatic irony. I don't think it should've just happened in the first few hours of the second game & think it could've been executed better, but that's a more minor problem I have with the story's writing & execution.
Ellie's story, I think, is the most compelling part of the game. It's the most fleshed out & the best-written of the 2 stories in it. However, it ends on a very downer note & feels like the writers were overly trying to make Ellie feel like the villain when, at best, she's an anti-hero/villain. Her want for revenge, I think, is also a bit overplayed with the game patting itself on the back for doing so & it comes off as smug on the writer's parts, intended or not.
Abby's story is where I have the most problems with the story's writing & execution. I'm sorry, but Abby's a horrible character & person & the game never lead me to think otherwise despite trying. I read that playtesters during the game's development kept finding Abby unlikable & the devs kept adding or changing parts of the game to try & make her better, but I don't think they ever succeeded before the game came out.
1. She spent 4 years trying to hunt down Joel to kill him. Ok. She has a nightmare still about her dad dying. Ok. Does she ever express regret or anything over killing Joel? No. As far as I can remember, she doesn't. Why am I supposed to forgive her?
I know YOU don't say I need to, J, but the game feels like it desperately wants you to like Abby as much as Neil Druckmann does & forgive her for her awful actions in the game.
2. She kills Joel, then Ellie comes after her for revenge & Abby never has a seen moment of reflection where she realizes _she_ caused that to happen, instead turning it back on _Ellie_ instead. Yes, it was when she was angry at her for killing her crew, but that doesn't make it much better. I doubt even if Abby had a more clear state of mind, she wouldn't have still felt that way.
3. She suddenly becomes a nicer person, then grows a conscience with the Wolves & Scars, then grows a kinship with Lev. Ok. I don't care. Abby's still a shit person underneath that as far as I'm concerned.
4. Neither Abby or Ellie have a moment where they talk about why they're doing what they're doing. Ellie never learns that Abby killed Joel because he killed her father rescuing her 4 years earlier. Ellie literally thinks that Abby killed Joel because Joel stopped them from being able to make the vaccine & she never learns otherwise. Abby likewise never learns that Ellie saw Joel like a father because of their journey 4 years prior & how they had a falling out, then she took him away from her before they could fully reconnect. Some people may ask why those matter, or say that it's more realistic or something that they wouldn't find these things out, but this is a written story in a game, not real life, & they never get humanized to each other as a result of these beats missing from the story. Narratively, the climax of the game is left empty without them.
Also, the use of flashbacks is way too much. Generally, you don't wanna do those too much in a story. Flashbacks are for revealing information, or showing an event that happened before where it comes in takes place. The game has way too many of them & they can last way too long. Uncharted 4 also used flashbacks, but they weren't as frequent & are used to gauge intrigue or provide new information to the players rather than pull the rug out from the player for some type of gut punch. That became tiring very quickly.
Like I said, I think the game could've used a few more drafts to iron out the flaws, or another writer who was allowed & wasn't afraid to tell Neil Druckmann what didn't work about the story. I can see someone telling me that Druckmann is open to constructive criticism, but the way I see it, the game's story is the result of a lack of essential internal constructive criticism. As said in J's review, some essential longtime ND people left after the bad crunch time of Uncharted 4 & even more people left during the development of TLOU2. The story of this game is a reworking of the original pitch of the first game's that Neil wanted to do, but the other people at ND wondered why Joel would go across the country for vengeance & they redid the story into what we got. As a narrative, I see what the game wanted to do. As a story, I think it's really badly told & is missing important story beats. Uncharted 4 also dealt with themes of obsession, losing a loved one, vengeance, etc. However, it was written & executed better & nothing felt illogical or took you out of the story. In fact, the writing worked in the game's favor. The writing in TLOUP2 works against a lot of what it wanted to do. This is how I see it at least.
Great video man. I had the luxury of playing thru LOU 1 for the first time the week part 2 came out so it was a seamless experience from introduction to sequel and I appreciate it because it allowed me to not have this entitlement and preconceived notion of what I FELT the sequel SHOULD be and instead I just took in what the developers put together and the story they chose to tell and I found it amazing tbh. Both games are in my top 5 and I wish more ppl could have experienced it w this lense. Life isn’t fair and we don’t always get what we want. You aren’t some special person who is exempt from life’s ugly realities because you’re likeable or because you feel just in your actions regardless to their outward impact and I love that they didn’t tap dance around that.
“Broke the internet”?
My internet was working just fine when this game came out. You might wanna check your modem, or call your ISP.
Everything about this game is so beautiful. The soundtrack is top notch, a fantastic mix of original and licensed music. Flawless acting, inspired directions, gripping scriptwriting, and FIRE gameplay. I honestly feel sorry for people who didn't have the same great experience I did. I respect you very much for coming around on this title. Shits profound
The "Return RUclips Dislikes" extension is very useful for videos like this.
What’s the current count?
@@juanddg4737 (for some reason my reply is deleted) it's 522 likes vs 454 dislikes. Install the extension, it's a helpful feature.
@@juanddg4737 Balanced, as all things should be.
Because it validates your hivemind?
I'm not against the extension btw, just making an observation.
TLOU2 really isn't that bad.
Your story about you and your dad added so much to the video, thank you for having the bravery to put it out there!
My experience with this series is odd. I played the first game, but lost interest and never finished it, not that the first game was bad, it just wasnt my cup of coffee. I wound up using it for a trade-in later.
I started to hear about part 2 from various content creators, mostly bc of the story leaks and all the coverage about the crunch going on at ND. And all these content creators are talking about how awful this game is, and how no one should buy it, and Abby is a monster, and Drukman is a hack writer, etc. It became so ingrained in me that im supposed to hate this game that whenever someone brought it up, my first instinct was to get mad about a game ive never played and have zero interest in playing. To be honest, this video has helped me to let go of these resentments because again, im not into these games and am not interested in going back to them. Im indifferent to the series at best.
But I will be forever salty that TLOU2 robbed Ghost of Tsushima of the awards it rightly deserved! XD
@@William5000000 Dude, are you MAD! Ghost of Tsushima was clearly the best game of 2020 and is an incredible stand-alone game. IMO, the journey of the character was handled so organically with great music, artsyle, combat, charecters, custimization and top tier storytelling. It was def robbed.
Another 'average game' is an insult, just say it wasn't your cup of tea.
ok, a lot of great games came out in 2020.
All of them at some point deserved game of the year. TLOU2 made people mad to emphasise us vs them mentality, final fantasy remade a beloved game to introduce new people to the franchise while keeping old fans happy, doom eternal perfected doom 2016 and was a good ass game. Animal crossing came out at a time people needed it to it provided comfort and social interaction to people because we couldnt go outside. Hades provided a game with a constant addicting gameplay loop for people to get lost in...
Ghost wasnt robbed it just came out in a packed year where games did soo much so this notion of ghost being robbed is lost because all games that year DESERVED that title...
@@William5000000 I was joking with my last comment (I figured the 'xD' on the end would make that apparent).
@@koolerman4443 It wasn't cinematic enough, it had too much gameplay and it didn't look like an hollywood movie, so it wasn't a good enough "moviegame" for the casual audience and the viodegaming critics, sadly.
@@koolerman4443 Its just another open world game,nothing special
If by masterpiece you mean its got the most beautiful graphics of any game today, then yes, its a graphical masterpiece. The story is just bad though, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions I guess. The reason the first game was so well received was because the story was simple. It didn't try to push any narratives or do too much. It was a simple father and daughter(like) relationship and their journey together.
being entitled to opinions is a mistake
The graphics aren't beautiful. They're just realistic. Actually beautiful graphics would look something like Guilty Gear XRD or Melty Blood: Type Lumina or Hollow Knight or Persona 5 or Cuphead or the Ori games.
@@sharzinlalebazri5673 that's just subjectivity.
@@wesleybcrowen sorry, it's not, uncanny realistically looking visuals are not masterpieces, they are modern technology.
Looks good? Yes. But that's it, TLOU2 looks worse than GoW or Spider-Man (to keep it in Playstation) objectively, it's just mud and sweat with no colors anywhere.
Technological marvel and good looking? Again, yes. But not a masterpiece, that is reserved for especial things. The only special thing of TLOU2 are the writers.
Honestly it's not even the best looking game anymore especially with all the new PS5 PC and series X games out.
This was a really nice video dude, thanks for giving your perspective and going into things in a very genuine way.
what a fantastic video. you've encapsulated my thoughts about this game and them some so well. i adore both of these games and i'm truly sad that so many seem to look for reasons to hate on part II when really they just never gave it a real chance. (a lot of fair criticism aside) thanks for spreading the good word. i hope you got some people to replay it with a more open mind.
part 2 is a terrible game
Okay your opinion not everyone has to agree@@oppressormk2362
The Last of Us Part 1 is a game that made me enjoy all the characters. The Last of Us Part 2 is a game that made me hate all the characters. Part two has good gameplay and Graphics but I honestly couldn't give two shits about anyone at the end of that game with exception of maybe lev and Tommy and even then I didn't find them that compelling by the end. When it was all over I hated Ellie and I hated Abbey and I honestly didn't care if either one of them died. It's a pretty unique thing to make me hate a character I once loved but dammit if Neil didn't succeed. I think the only way I'd be interested in a part 3 is if it was just about a whole new set of characters because I don't give a crap about these people anymore.
Why didn’t you hate Lev and Tommy? They was accomplices!
I say that not as a hater, I loved all the characters and I think your reasoning for disliking them is perfectly valid. I’m just trying to push the envelope a bit
@@someguy9345 I didn't hate Tommy because I can understand his reasoning for wanting Revenge for Joels death. Much like Joel he was already past the point of being a truly redeemable person so I feel his character wasn't mishandled when he went on a Warpath. And lev isn't involved in the whole revenge plot and is just more of an outcast so I didn't really have any reason to hate the character.
A weird take there. Did these characters bully you or something? Why do you hate them lol?
@@FraserSouris it's not really a weird take they're just very unlikable irredeemable people.
@@bigkmoviesandgames don’t they end the game saving lives and moving past their issues?
Isn’t that, by definition, redeemable?
Love this analysis/review!! I only just got into Last of Us in the last month (knowing absolutely nothing about it beforehand) and now it's safe to say it's my new obsession until the further notice. I've played the first game twice, about to do my second run on Part 2, and have watched the HBO series and most, if not all, the behind the scenes content. At the end of the second game, I was so emotionally exhausted that I was fighting tears through each blow Ellie was giving Abby in the end, just wanting all the anger and violence between them to be over. At the end of the game, I was sobbing, and could have sobbed longer but I was already getting a headache from all the stress. The way you explained the motivations behind both protagonists was totally on point, that although outwardly their perspective enemy were each other, but it was in actuality the hate and anger they felt inside that they couldn't contain and control.
Also, thank you for being so open and honest about why this game means a lot to you with it's theme of forgiveness and moving on. I think I can safely say a great deal of us can relate to having a strained relationship with a family member, and you equating the ups and downs of Joel and Ellie's relationship with your own experience was very well done.
10:44 I just can't defend the 2019 state of play trailer, The whole point of that trailer and the money shot was to see Joel again and it got me SO damn excited back then, just to replace him with different character in the final game. It's such disgusting false advertising, hiding stuff like making it seem like Dina was the one to die is fine but DON'T create entirely new false scenes just to ensure sales, this trailer alone makes me despise the game even more
It was to avoid people figuring out te story, why are you so sensitive is just marketing
@@yosos2 Because they lied to me with false promises to get my money (they opened the pre-orders right after this trailer aired). Regardless of the game's quality they did not have to outright lie like this. It's deceitful and scummy.
@@szero7429All the signs were there they showed you joel coming in as a ghost first trailer they dont talk about him for ages everyone's like where's joel he probably dead people were still excited about the game.
They drum up that trailer to throw everyone off. Movies and games do this all the time are you angry at marvel movies for doing the same thing? Or even the first TLOU for saying you never play as ellie when you actually do? its just due to fact that you didnt like the direction they went in and thats fine but there was nothing wrong with the marketing. Joel is still there in some capacity thats what the trailer shows and thats what the game gives.They did not promise anything they did not deliver...unlike other games
@@szero7429 they didn't lie to you, are you a child? You have control over your own money, they showed a gameplay segment with that trailer also, apparently they did have to lie because when people found out that Joel died they lost their shit and send death threats to the creators and actors
@@yosos2 I never said I actually paid for it, thanks to the leaks that came out I knew what what was actually going to happen so I just borrowed the game. But the trailer's intention was to get me excited for things that never happened
I’m heading through this now for the first time. Game is incredible. Some pacing problems, and a few contrivances? Sure, but I just love being in this world, and the journey of its two protagonists is beautifully explored.
I loved this game. And it's fine if others didn't. What I find exhausting though is how there isn't a single comment section discussing anything Last of Us related without a bunch of angry haters coming in and complaining about this game, even years later. I know when I hate something, I don't go out and seek comment sections discussing it to complain about it. I typically just don't talk about things I hate. I talk about things I like. But I've begun avoiding comment sections on articles and videos about Last of Us because of this.
I guess I'm making an exception on this, although I'm just leaving this comment without reading the others that are already here. I don't know how hate filled this comment section is. I'm leaving this comment because I saw your video 3 years ago. These are the only 2 videos I saw from you, but it's pretty clear you went through a lot of growth. I'm glad you are in a better place now.
2 is a bad story. 1 is the misunderstood one where people get mad that "he sacrificed the world for one girl" argument and I just see that as the experiment not actually being guaranteed to work and just kill his second daughter. Most if not all people would do the same thing if a loved one was going to die for a "chance" at humanity to survive. I wouldn't let my niece die and probably wing the doctors and leave. The world was already doomed
2 is just bad as it couldn't do "revenge is bad" and "have your revenge" storylines by dropping the ball and thats without getting into the writing and the ending
People also forgot that the Fireflies are a terrorist group, that lied to Joel all the time and in the end tried to kill him instead of giving him what they have promised.
So even if they develop the cure, they sure are no good people that will save the world out of good will, they most likely use it as a political tool to gain more power for themself.
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 That's the problem with changing writers or pandering and not having a clear idea
I understand both sides of the argument in 1 where if you could be the martyr to save humanity I'm sure some people would do it while their family would not want it to happen and vice versa just rejecting this notion as with enough time they could find another solution to save humans. I mean why not keep the kid alive and take some blood for testing? Skin sample etc. So many options even in that apocalypse of a world
The original game was supposed to have an ambiguous ending like you said. You’re supposed to wonder if Joel did the right thing, and put yourself into his shoes. But Neil Druckman had to go and retcon what joel did into him dooming humanity and the vaccine being a sure fire success. Druckman didn’t write the first game, but he took this franchise and changed it in his image. Even the TV show heavily changed the first games story in entirely poor ways.
@@mattmas6628 pretty much what I'd say so I'll just give you a like as 1 having people argue with the right decision was great while 2 took your choice away as it's bad.
The Fireflies also did this while she was unconscious, so she couldn’t even give her say on the matter. They were just ready to kill Ellie without any hesitation nor gave a damn about her own opinion.
The problem is with Abby is that one she and her are completely unsympathetic considering that Jerry was willing to kill an unconscious Ellie for the suppose sake of humanity but when he was question by Mel if he would do it if Abby was the one on the table and he hesitates and never gives Mel an answer meanwhile Abby is listening to this and agrees with his plan. This is also based the fact that Ellie never give consent to them to do this. This kinda makes Joel actions against the firefly’s pretty justified since they were willing to sacrifice someone just for thier happiness and yet Joel is somehow the bad guy in this story for doing the same thing? Not too much mention how pretty inconsistent Abby is like Joel saves her from a zombie horde but then bashes his brain in but she doesn’t do the same to two Scar children, a group that she has hated for years, kill thier members and even condone killing said children. And there is the fact that Abby never gets punished for her revenge.
Abby's revenge got a bunch of her friends killed. Including Owen, who she still clearly loved. I'd say that's pretty harsh punishment.
@@commie_maybe one, Abby immediately abandons WLF and even call them "you people" clearly casting aside any feelings for them for a person she barely met. With Owen she pretty venomously told him to get over his trauma meanwhile has spent years searching for Joel and the game pretty much acts she was justified. With Mel, she was pretty much cheating on her husband while she was pregnant. It pretty obviously that Abby plays with "Loosely".
@chandllerburse737 they still sided with them long and none of them seem to have a problem WLF also she still condone killing those kids. This was even point out by Mel WLF top Scar killer suddenly has a change of heart and has nothing to do with Owen?
@chandllerburse737 war doesn't kill Lovers and family members? It's not personal? What about the Iraq war?
@chandllerburse737 it is the same thing. Plenty of fiction has had some Protagonist hating a group and often times it is personal. Also what about real world example like ISIS.
To be fair Abbey wanted revenge 7 years later, Ellie was willing to drop it after a few days!!! Abbey is not a good person, she knowingly put all her friends at risk just for revenge, many year's later in that world? Ridiculous
This is untrue.
@@ClickClickFrick lol okay buddy
*goes on a slaughter spree killing every single person in her path*
*gets to the one person she wanted to kill the whole time* "REVENGE BAD!"
**DEEP**
How do you make that white text?
😂😂😂😂
@@Maverick100-z4e put a * on each end of what you want boldened
I absolutely HATE this kind of writing trope.
@@Moromom22 Same, it's just plain lazy
Since early 2020 after seeing the leaks, cancelling my pre-order & then watching all of the cutscenes/cinematics of The Last Of Us Part 2 on RUclips after release & vowed that I will NEVER play this game. Earlier this year during February with the hype of The Last of Us HBO Max TV Show And also after playing The Last of Us Part 1's Triple AAA+ Remaster on my PS5 [Still not calling it a "Remake"] I've finally played The Last of Us Part 2 with the PS5 Enhancements installed on the SSD. I've decided to finally man up & get it off my chest out of morbid curiosity and playing it just for the gameplay, even though I already know this story/plot-points and spoiled all the cutscenes for myself And I can finally say that I like the Gameplay, Improvements and there are some legitimate good parts of this game but I still don't like this story and you have to admit it does have writing flaws with it's pacing, flashbacks, developments, character moments, etc. If The Last of Us Part 1 is a game with a 10/10 Story, with 6.5/10 Gameplay. The Last of Us Part 2 is a game with a 5.9/10 Story, with 7.5/10 Gameplay.
My overall score of The Last of Us Part 2 it's a solid 7.0/game. I didn't think this game was a 0/10 like some stupid people out there said, but I don't think it's a 10/10 "Masterpiece" either. The true answer lies somewhere in the middle and that's where I stand. Overall good video J. All 1:34:01 of it.
37:23 And I don't mind you camera segment J, in fact I like them! I think it's pretty refreshing. It's like you're almost up there with SomecallmeJohnny with his camera segments. But if you don't like showing your face, then that's fine. I'm pretty camera shy in real life.
I think The Closer Look's video perfectly explains in the 1st half of his video on exactly just why The Last of Us Part 2's story is flawed. ruclips.net/video/MvTFF-E5wkw/видео.html&pp=ygUbdGhlIGxhc3Qgb2YgdXMgYmV0dGVyIHN0b3J5
I'm going to save anything that I have to say about the story, because I've talked about this game far longer than I should have, and I'm done trying to explain why the story is bad. If people got a better experience out of it than me, then whatever. However, I will say this, Laura Bailey did not deserve the hate she got for this role. She's wonderful, still one of the best female voice talents in the industry, and on behalf of the overall community, I apologize to her for the backlash she received. And the other thing I want to say, is that this game should not have won game of the year. Not because I think it's a bad, but because a game that caused so much hatred, so much arguing, and literally split an entire fanbase in half, should not have won. So many people were hurt and angry because of this game, and caused so many people to attack each other because they either liked it or hated it. Ghost Of Tsushima, a game that came out the same year, had nothing but universal praise and did nothing, but bring people together to talk about how awesome it was. I also hate calling media a masterpiece. The only thing that I would say in the last 5+ years that could genuinely be called a masterpiece, was Into The Spider-Verse. Nothing is perfect, and a game as flawed as TLOU2, certainly should not be called, a masterpiece.
Popularity isn't an objective measure of quality.
You brought up people saying “why didn’t Joel tell her he did it bc she wasn’t given a choice?” But completely skipped over that and didn’t argue for or against it. I think it’s a fair argument. Was it THE reason why he did it? Nah probably not. But it is the absolute truth. Would she have gone through with it if given the choice? Yeah probably. But she was never given that choice.
Abby felt like a retcon that the writers expected the player to understand, it didn't work because of what she does and how her story is told. Joel was written off by being out-of-chatacter just to give an excuse for the whole story, and the whole revenge message doesn't deliever anything, with the biggest reason being that the antagonist simply gets away with it after a long journey killing people, something that Red Dead Redemption 2 did MASTERFULLY with characters and story.
Watch the video. It responds to your message before you even wrote it, while you simply ignored anyone who dares disagree with you.
No just no. I wish i could see it. This is a letdown of a game. I have the $250 ellie edition. Unopen still. It has good moments but its like dlc.
I love how hating something is bad, but loving the same thing is totally ok
Insane
I’ve only just come across your channel and your videos on TLOU. I don’t think you’ll read this but if you do, I just wanted to say I hope you find peace with your former self. That person, did the best they could under the circumstances. I hope that you forgiveness.
On Ellie and Joel, as we mature we develop a perception of the world that is more in line with truth. One of the harder truths to accept is the flaws of our parents. They are just imperfect human beings. Despite probably knowing all along, this truth was revealed the day she cut Joel off. Ellie was made to wrestle with the fact that Joel stole from her the one thing she believed to be her calling.
Great work man! Appreciate the video!
I'm sorry, I like your reviews, I really do, but this is sloppy and is just not it. I can't speak for others, but I feel like internet culture over the last few years is the way it is now due to misinterpretations and miscommunication between multiple groups that lead to misunderstandings. I don't have enough time to go in detail about my full thoughts as to why, but every time I see a creator talk about internet culutre it always feels like it comes from a place of not seeing the bigger picture and lacking nuance.
Exactly right
No
Nice to see that this video's about as polarizing as the game itself
My opinion on TLoU2 completely changed over time. When the 2020 leaks happened, I absolutely hated the direction the story went. But I cooled my head and still bought and played the game, to give it a honest chance. And I really liked it. Weeks and months passed, and the game still was in my mind, daily. I was listening to the soundtrack almost non-stop. The game kept growing and growing on me, and then, about six months after my first playthrough, I played it again. And the experience absolutely floored me. Just remembering it makes me feel goosepumps.
I consider TLoU2 an unparalleled artistic masterpiece, lightyears ahead any movie, tv show or game that has come out in the last 10 years. The pacing, the ways story, atmosphere, themes and gameplay connect are incredible. The more I explore this story, the more meaning I find. It is so much more than "revenge bad". This point of view is just as absurd as saying that Better Call Saul is about "crime is bad". There is so much more nuance, character building, thematic exploration and progression.
Just a quick heads up for future commenters.
I get the feeling a good portion of the comments I’m reading are written before they even finish the majority of the video or simply based off the title alone. Not all of them obviously.
I have plenty of my fair share of gripes and criticisms for this game but this has been one of the better video analysis of this game so far so I hope you all can actually keep an open mind.
Please be kind, you don’t have to agree with each other in order to be respectful. Thank you ^-^
Unfortunately, they'd rather prove how their anger controls them.
Most of the hate Comments they didn't even watch the video just saw the title. Props to you for being one of the few rational people that actually gives criticism unlike the idiots where their criticism is "WoKe, nEiL sAiD ThIs" nonsense. It's so bad that people would rather discuss games with casuals then so called "fans" gamers need to do better
Or, you can say a game is good or bad and leave it at that. It’s an opinion; You HAVE to understand that no matter how people talk about any piece of media, it will always, ALWAYS be their opinion, no matter what, whether they like it or not.
Additionally, I see way more folks complaining about people hating the TLOU series than people hating the TLOU series.
Then you are not reading even this comment section
It being good and bad are statements of quality. Whether you liked it or not is subjective.
People can like bad games, movies, or tv shows.
People can not like good games, movies, or tv shows.
Your feelings have nothing to do with the actual quality of something.
@GerardoFirestorm lmao right. Are they blind? This comment section is 90% hating on the game
You can still express the fact you disagree with someone's opinion and poke holes in their argument.
Damn haven’t seen like any of your vids since your god tier DCAU stuff. RUclips was doing you dirty on my end. Granted those aren’t topics I’m necessarily interested in but you think watching 50+ hours of a channel would keep that in your algorithm. Still doing amazing work man keep it up.
i'm sorry but you're insane if you really think that. i'll still give this a watch though and see where you're coming from.
edit: alright, i take it back. i actually liked your perspective of this game and how it connects to so many themes of moving on both irl and in-game. it's not perfect, but i think there's a good conversation to be had in all this. glad you found such a powerful message in it.
I appreciate the effort put into this review, and there are a lot of good points here. But the toxic internet take is pretty far off imo.
Sounds like you’re the problem
J you don't have to come around and love every game you used to hate lmao
It all started with freaking mega man X6
Lol he’s going through that phase where he tries to look at everything super deep, but not everything really is that deep… he’s like 21 yrs old I think we all had that time where we were unsure of our own opinions
@@mattmas6628 I remember he was born in 2000 so he should be around 23.
@@mattmas6628 it's a video essay all of his content is a deep dive into whatever topic he covers. Look no further than his Teenage mutant ninja turtles videos.
@@johnholliday13 yeah I know, I was referring to him going back and changing his opinions on so many games
Hey J, I don’t think you’ll respond to this comment, but Capcom released a survey for resident evil fans to fill out in their website and asking them which resident evil game should be remake next. So if you want that Resident Evil Code Veronica remake this is your chance. Good video by the way.
joel going out the way he did is the equivalent to capitan levi getting eaten by a random titan.
p.s. levi doesnt get eaten by a random titan dw
Everybody in the saga dies like that. What did you expect?
damn. got spoiled.
@@mruchiha0209 *SPOILER*
That Levi being eaten wasn't a spoiler, he's too cool to die🗿
The manga’s ending still completely destroys Eren’s character.
Exactly! Clumsy design story decisions that lead nowhere.
And what I most loved about TLoU 2, is that they show us real humans, acting out of real emotions. It doesen't have to be Ellie or Abby but they showed us how most People would react on what happend. I heard some people complaining on how Ellies immunity wasn't important at all. That was the Point. TLoU was never a Story about the immunity or how the World could be saved. It was always about how Human beeings react in different ways on to different events to happen. Abby became what Joel was to Ellie and Ellie became for Abby what Abby was for her. It was never about a vaccine, this was always just a part of the Worldbuilding. Brilliant Worldbuilding. The cordyceps, the infection, the "cure", it was all just part of cover of this brilliant Book. The true story is within the Pages. And it was about the people. Everything else was just a way to deliver the Story.
I tried 4 years to love the last of us 2 but I can't the gameplay is great but the story pasting and climax are bad and the game is too long. At the end it was just a disappointment
Yea the game being 30 hours long was too much for me lol. They should’ve split it up or something
OH MY FLIPPING EFFIN JESUS H.CHRIST!!!!
the boat showing the round roof!
i just always assumed the rattlers were on the radio and it was a trap to get abby to the them. because the resort is round.
1:34:01 video essay: "People who have time to write comments don't have friends or social connections or family. I wrote an hour and a half long video essay." No hate, but a weird statement in a video essay of this length it seems blatantly hypocritical.
I couldn't get into this game at all. I got it day of release when it came out and dropped it after 4 hours due to finding it extremely boring and finding all the characters annoying and unlikeable. Just not my cup of tea.
I love that you took the time to tell why this game personally matters to you and speaks to you as a person and gamer. Love your content and this was a great watch
He did a good job, but doesn't change the fact that Social media is full of cretins
When people say “Joel used Ellie to fill the void left behind by Sarah,” they’re not saying he LITERALLY is trying to turn her into Sarah or thinks they’re the same person. It’s just having a daughter to care for at all is what he wanted back, no one is saying he doesn’t love Ellie for who she is, he does, but the extreme lengths he goes to not to lose her is motivated by not having to feel that pain of losing another daughter. I think you vastly misinterpreted that analysis
I don't feel those things are mutually exclusive. And nobody is saying 'literally' - he isn't putting Sarah's clothes on Ellie nor was the video guy saying that was happening. If feel his main point was that he is learning to love and connect again, and is doing that in good faith of getting to know Ellie herself instead of as a proxy or replacement for Sarah. Ultimately, I believe you two agree, but are parsing context and specific wordage.
I really felt that complication with your dad; I have a lot of issues with my own. From your description mine might be a bit more visceral and traumatic than yours, but they're also rooted in a loose relationship with the truth. Watching him struggle with a ton of issues shaped me in a lot of ways. I actively avoid drinking alcohol most of the time because of what I've seen it do to him and other members of my family. And because of something he did about 9 years ago, I've effectively cut him out of my life and unfortunately I think that was the healthiest thing to do.
And I hate that, because until about a decade ago, most of my memories with him were good. When I was with him, he was a great dad. Supportive, encouraging, everything I thought a dad should be. But that episode was the culmination of roughly a year of holes being poked in that façade, leading up to a complete shattering. Everything's coated in a layer of doubt, wondering if my perception was ever real, if he was ever a good father. And it hurts because I don't think he was; I think he knew how to act like one, just not how to *be* one. I want my dad back, but the worst part might be that he was never really there.
I don't know if I hope we can mend things down the road; frankly I think it may be too late for that, and big part of moving on for me has been making peace with that possibility. What I do hope is two things: one, if we eventually patch things up I want it to be because he's grown and recovered from some of his own struggles; two, if I ever have kids, I hope I can be a better father than he was ever able to be.
Why are people pressed he made a video about what he likes? These are HIS thoughts. If you don’t agree, cool. If you like the game, cool. Where’s the nuance these days? Everything is either the best or the worst.
Also Part 1 was a straightforward story and Part 2 was an experimental dive into something different. “We wanted more Joel” cool but more of the same would’ve been too safe. I respect the choice to make it different.
I haven’t played the game since it came out. Love that your bit about the comments is true because I look at your comments section and it is once again polarising.
They didn't even watch the video but somehow he's a shill which Btw is overused word
I believe somehow this game also made me a more empathetic and more poignantly a more FORGIVING person. I used to struggle with forgiveness and why some found it so important, but this game came at the exact moment I needed it in my life.
J, the marketing was straight up misleading to what the story would be, Neil himself lied about it. There wasn't evidence of Joel's death in the marketing, he appeared at the end of the story trailer in the place of Jessie to purposely mislead that he would appear in the present story with Ellie in Seattle. It is a huge coincidence that Abby and her crew were near Jackson the day both Joel/Tommy and Ellie/Dina are on patrol. J it's incredibly disingenuous to discredit the genuine and valid opinions of a significant portion of the fans who disliked many aspects of the story of the game. Part 2's writing is abysmal compared to Part 1. How can a story designed on purpose to spit the fanbase be a masterpiece? Abby gets away with her revenge and never learns any lesson from it. She loses her friends sure but she believes she did the right thing by killing Joel, however Ellie's arc ends up being 'revenge bad.' Dina's role in this story disappears once she reveals her convenient pregnancy and she is sidelined until the theatre confrontation, with her only real purpose to give Ellie a baby to care for and a family by the end. There's no discussion on Ellie's immunity that she revealed to Dina, it becomes about Dina's pregnancy. Abby's crew are insufferable people who have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Abby's 180 to save Yara and Lev and betrayal of the WLF was ridiculous and only served to give Abby her own 'Ellie.' This whole game has manipulated people into believing that it's deep and amazing when its not.
Amazing how people are already doing exactly what he explained was bad to do.
The first game was like this too! You’re telling me that Marlene somehow doesn’t hear Joel and Tess execute Robert?? You’re telling me that Ellie does a complete 180 and acts all happy and chipper three weeks after her best friend Riley dies? How the hell did Ellie keep Joel alive for two months after he impaled himself on a piece of metal? It makes no sense!
Also the Pittsburgh Hunters and especially the raiders in Jackson are so cartoonishly evil! It’s pretty much a statement saying “murder bad”! I don’t need to be told Murder bad!
I love both games. Are you nitpicking Part 2 because you feel the story is too much for you and you have to justify it by saying it’s objectively bad? It’s not black and white.
@@FiendaroÖ How is commenting J's inaccuracies bad? He's inaccurate at points in this video, explain to me how that is possibly bad?
@@TheSwilkos Both games are filled with these plot holes, I'm not defending Part 1 either. Part 2 is flawed to the core whereas Part 1 is mostly coherent.
@@zachinkins1839 Part 2 isn’t flawed to the core in my eyes :D
I love it!
Ehh, I went into this game preparing for the worst and with a massive preconceived notion about how much I'd hate it. By the end of the game, I not only ended up liking the game, but I preferred playing as Abby more than Ellie. Interestingly enough though, I find myself skipping Abby cut scenes, but watching the Ellie ones.
Great gameplay, bad story. And not just because of Joel being brutally killed, but other things too. For example the whole journey where Abby goes to get supplies to save Yara. Such a long journey, fighting the Rat King and all, only for Yara to die like 5 minutes after being healed. Felt completely pointless. I simply couldn't have cared less about Yara and Lev.
the pacing is so horrible, it was all over the place.. having to play in a flash-back within a flash-back straight after a cliff-hanger is the worst idea I've ever witnessed, it just came to a point that I just wanted to finish the game to end the suffering already..
Also, Naughty Dog straight lying in an interview and saying that Ellie would be the only playable character 1 year before release is just straight disgusting. I've tried to enjoy the gameplay alone in NG+ but its very hard when the game is trying to be a depression simulator. This game is a "political message" and its a straight insult to all of the OG TLOU1 fans.
Thank you Bruce Straley. You made the best game ever.
For me this was the game that finally broke Naughty Dog’s back as a developer, the story is far too complicated and the length of the game is way too long and honestly the fact that Joel dies doesn’t really bother me it made me super pissed yeah but what annoyed me more was how ND enticed fans of the character back and literally dangled him in front of us so we would fork over our cash only to just kill him off and THEN make us play his killer, I will never understand how people can be fans of Abby and anyone who says she’s a better character than him is fucking delusional
It's also the reason that if Jak comes back, I want Insomniac Games at the helm.
It didn't help in the marketing they showed Joel in a cutscene that was actually a different character in the final game to hide his death. But another factor to me that breaks Naughty Dog's back is also the intense crunch they went through in this game. I also feel the game is too long and would gladly have a shorter game if it meant there was less crunch for developers.
@chandllerburse737Wait they wanted COD numbers? 😂. There’s aiming for a high profit and then there’s being unrealistic.
@@WarpChaos If numerous mobile game ads continue to get away with stupid false advertising ads, I doubt ND would be getting any legal trouble.
@@Signerdragon123Insomniac Games? The same guys who replaced Ratchet with a purple rat to appeal to rule34 furries?
I know that I'm over 7 months late and albeit I come and go around this channel, but you're 100% right about this game about its message about not taking the people you care about for granted. I played this game as well back on release except with having prior knowledge to what happened to Joel and loved it for different reasons. I view this game now in a different light. My biological mother died Just over a year ago and never felt more regret for pushing her away while she was still around. Stopped talking to her around 17 and kept my distance and now that she has passed I never felt so regretful about not spending time with her regardless of our horrid past together. I'm glad everything worked out with you and your father and was able to come up with some sort of resolve with each other because I wouldn't wish this kind of pain towards my worst enemies
Here it is folks J's most Polarizing video of ALL TIME!
Masterful analysis of a masterful game. Kudos on a great video, brother.
With the LOU2, I was one of the people who looked into the leak and found it really bad and did not want to play. Then I saw reviews and I still didn't want to play. I absolutely loved the first game. Then late in 2022, I decided to have closure and try to play the game. The gameplay still is pretty great, except you feel very inferior when playing with Ellie than Abby as your weapons aren't that great.
I honestly couldn't care less about Abby. The way the story pacing was just left a bad taste imo. At the end, I hated Ellie's decision. She had everything she could've wanted at that time, but just throws it all away .
I didn't care if Joel died. In fact I was kinda expecting him to die. But to have it in the first 15 minutes of the game, sure shock value was there, but it didn't really feel...right.
In the end, my only beef with TLOU2 was the story. Everything else was pretty solid and graphics were amazing, but the story is what drove me to play the 1st game like you said in your last video.
that WAS THE POINT!! death is never supposed to feel,"RIGHT" or "EARNED"
@chandllerburse737 yeah I heard that too about Abby being trans. Abby's look didn't bother me, but the other rumors/leaks were blown away out of proportion now that I think about it. I just knew a lot of people hated Abby back then because of that trans rumor.
@@teamwork_videogamer sure, again shock factor is there. But I think it would've been more impactful if it was built up and pacing of the story was different imo. I remember hearing rumors that Joel was going to die in this game, but I didn't care. Joel should die according to certain perspectives of those he hunted down or hurt.
@chandllerburse737 that's nuts. I didn't like it from the leaks I heard because you got to play as Abby after killing Joel and I was like, "Why the heck would I do that?" I personally would think if we got to know Abby before and built up to the moment she killed Joel that would have been a huge impact compared to what we got. That would have been, "Oh shit! She's the bad guy?! That's why she is doing what she doing?"
@chandllerburse737 Doesn't she literally have sex with a guy? You would think said guy would bring something up if Abby you know, wasn't really biologically female? From what I know, the trans bits seem to be a bit overexaggerated.
🎶 If i ever lost my blue shoes... 🎵
I'd go check on my shelf 🎶
The ending really bothers me. Ellie sees Abby on the post, cuts her down for a knife fight, when she should have stabbed her to death rather than deciding to fight her in the water. Why would Ellie fight her in the water instead or stabbing or shooting her where she was trapped?
And then loses her fingers, lets Abby go and goes home with nothing.
It feels like the most manufactured reason for a boss fight.
Overall though, it feels like Ellie lost it all while Abby still had someone and wasnt alone.
Both characters should have lost it all, not the one we care about the most.
I felt very similar .. i love ellie so the ending was kinda shit for me
Well, she hasn't lost everything. There's still Jackson. She's probably gonna rebuild relationships there, hopefully with Dina as well.
Ellie didn’t kill Abby on sight because her desire wasn’t simply about Abby dying. Abby is basically the manifestation of all the hatred Ellie feels: the hatred she feels to herself for not forgiving Joel and the hatred she feels towards Abby for taking away the chance to forgive Joel. All that hatred and her trauma reveal that Ellie felt she needed the physical brutality of just fighting Abby to the death. And I think it’s intentional that if Ellie hadn’t went to Santa Barbra, Abby would have died, which recontextualizes her mission as a rescue mission instead of revenge mission.
Does it matter if one character in a story loses more than another? Abby’s story is about redemption so it’s significant that she has Lev. But it’s also significant for Ellie to lose so much because her story is about self-destruction and the fact that her biggest fear is ending up alone.
A good story doesn't always give you what you want. TLOU2 tells a painful and messy and frustrating story for a reason, because the world of the game (like our world) is painful and messy and frustrating. You don't have to like what happens or agree with the characters' decisions to appreciate that.
I mean I feel like you like a lot of ppl are just really over simplifying things, she obviously hesitated bc at the end of the day she isn’t really doing this from her own will. She’s been mentally forced to take on this journey bc it’s the only thing that she will feel closure. Then she comes to terms what the audience has seen the entire gameplay bc we have BEEN there for ALL of it of ALL sides told, which is that revenge won’t bring you anything it’ll just leave you feeling even more empty with added blood on your hands and she sees that. Not hating on your opinion at all as it’s your opinion but you can’t look at it as a black and white fictional story with a set ending. This is at its core a human story showing the tendencies and flaws that make us human and it’s a very realistic way to end it. She went through with the revenge when after being warmed by everyone that it’s not worth it then is faced with the forever lasting consequences of those actions both physical and metaphorical.
Love the vid and also loved your recent vid on whether or not joel was right. I gotta say it’s very easy to relate to this story for a lot of people because of just how real the dialogue is between the characters. Obviously none of us have had beef like Ellie did with Joel for killign a bunch of people but we all have probably had our moments of rage at something a parent did. For myself I remember my mother caused something that led to a falling out between myself and a girl I was dating when I was younger and she was my first love and I struggled for a long time to truly forgive my mom for what happened but like you said how Ellie not talking to joe caused her nothing but pain it was the same with my mom until I forgave her. Again it’s nothing to much like the game but just that moment where a parent did something for a right or wrong reason but in the end they do care about you and never wanted to hurt you. That to me is one of the big points of this story joel never wanted to hurt Ellie but him lying did and he faced the consequences for it.
I’ve kind of had the opposite experience, at first I really really liked the narrative. But as time has gone on I’ve noticed so many of the cracks, holes and issues with the narrative.
I really like the direction, the vision. I just think the execution of it all is really, really poorly done. There’s some moments of brilliance sprinkled in there that are over shadowed by the very poorly handled subject matter.
The game I feel like, unintentionally fools you into thinking it’s better than it is, or perhaps intentionally.
It relies on your emotional investment to carry the narrative rather than just having good writing to hold itself up.
A good example of this would actually be the ending of the game. If you successfully connected with Abby as a character, you do not want Elie to kill her and you would rather her let her go, so for people that enjoyed Abby, they feel like the moment is earned. The issue with it is that Ellie does not have a single reason to spare Abby. Ellie doesn’t actually know anything at all about Abby other than the fact that she killed Joel and that she was a firefly. She doesn’t even know that Joel killed her father, she just assumed it was because Joel made the cure impossible.
I have no issue with Ellie sparing Abby whatsoever, that’s not the issue with that scene in particular. The problem is that there’s nothing in the games narrative to build up to this revelation, it just happens on a whim and hinges entirely on weather or not you liked Abby for the moment to work.
So it ends up fooling you into thinking the narrative and writing is tight and coherent when it’s not. There are so many examples throughout the games narrative that you can point the same exact logic to. Where it relies entirely on your emotional investment rather than the narrative actually being coherent within the context of the story.
It took me a really long time to realize I was more in love with the last of us 2’s themes, ideas and overall vision rather than the actual execution of the narrative in of its self.
I would really like to see a Directors cut version, a refined version of the narrative because I fully believe that it could definitely work and actually be a lot better than it currently is. I just think it needs some revisions and rewrites and some additions and maybe a few cuts.
Same story, just improved.
Gameplays phenomenal though, pretty much everything else is 10/10 quality. It’s just the writing that needs some polishing and refining.
Really I think the appropriate word here is “manipulation“ but not so much in the sense that “I am angry that the game is trying to make me empathize with someone I hate“ but more so that it manipulates you into thinking the writing is solid when what it’s really doing is hinging everything on your emotional investment and that’s what’s doing all of the heavy lifting rather than the narrative actually being fully cohesive. Bunch of half measures and half baked under developed reasons and excuses for plot revelations that more often than not fall apart when you think about most of it for like 5 seconds. Abby’s character arc feels rushed and sloppy and not very well thought out, the time we do have with her feels underutilized.
I’m overall just indifferent to her. I don’t hold any strong feelings towards Abby one way or the other and that kinda sucks.
Really hope a directors cut does exist. I wanna see TLOU2 reach it’s full potential.
The game we have now feels like a rough draft version of a much better story. All of the ideas and concepts are there, just not the proper leg work to flesh it all out to be as good as it could’ve been.
I had a similar experience. Actually loved the game at first.
But Imo the game fools you because it has absurdly high production values and its visually stunning. Also the acting and cinematography are at the peak of the indsutry from a technical standpoint. Its an accomplished VISUAL masterpiece.
Its hard not to be in awe of the technical aspects of the game.
The writing, script and general creative direction of the story are abhorrent ,and it shows beyond the initial wow factor.
*>"A good example of this would actually be the ending of the game. If you successfully connected with Abby as a character, you do not want Elie to kill her and you would rather her let her go, so for people that enjoyed Abby, they feel like the moment is earned. The issue with it is that Ellie does not have a single reason to spare Abby. Ellie doesn’t actually know anything at all about Abby other than the fact that she killed Joel and that she was a firefly. She doesn’t even know that Joel killed her father, she just assumed it was because Joel made the cure impossible."
@@FraserSouris I mean we don’t actually know what Nora told her, we never see the conversation. We could assume that maybe Ellie knows but considering the first thing she says to Abby in the theater is
“there’s no cure because of me I’m the one that you want” which implies she’s connecting it to her survivors guilt and desire to be a martyr.
If she knows that the main motivation was that Joel killed her father, that is not something the narrative ever actually tells us and it is something we have to assume which means at a baseline level it is an inconsistency in the writing.
The thing is is that with Ellie sparing Abby, In every review I’ve ever watched of this game, or every reaction to the ending from a lets players play through, I’ve always heard so many different interpretations of why Ellie let Abby go.
Which tells me that the narrative doesn’t give you any reason whatsoever as to why she did it. It’s people drawing their own conclusions. That’s not inherently a bad thing however what I am trying to say is that as far as what is written and what is there in the narrative, there isn’t really anything there, which, as I said hinges entirely on your emotional investment above all else.
I get where you’re coming from but almost all of what you’re saying is your own interpretations or your own fillings for the blanks the narrative left open.
@@Sev3617 tbh the game gives plenty of reasons that ellie lets abby go, any one of them is good enough for most people to focus on mainly which is why you see so many interpretations, its just people talking ab which aspect of it they connected w/ most. like for me personally my fave aspect is that ellie letting abby go is basically her forgiving joel and allowing herself to move on from him and she doesn't kill abby bc killing abby was never the actual point of her whole revenge plot and we see that through her remembering the day she decided she would forgive joel. tlou2 goes at storytelling more like a tv show or movie then your average game and honestly expects you to treat it like a tv show or movie, the acting and context clues are more important then what the characters directly say and the game treats its audience like adults by expecting them to understand that. this isnt to put a downer on other games, hell Wolfenstein is up there as one of my favourite franchises but acting as if the game not giving a solid main reason for not killing abby is the same as not giving a reason at all is just ignoring where the game expects the audience to meet it and the style of storytelling it worked along