Alonso's 3-step save at China, & why Sainz crashed
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- #alonso #sainz #china #turn16 #oversteer #shanghai
Finally, F1 is putting gravel on the outside of kerbs so we don't have silly track limit problems and instead we're treated to a fantastic display of car control by Fernando Alonso at Turn 16! But how did he keep it on the track when Carlos Sainz lost it in near identical circumstances? Watch and find out!
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Comments on your comments:
1. The likeability of a driver has nothing to do with their skill.
2. Yes, Sainz was further over, so arguably in worse trouble than Alonso. But maybe not. It also depends on how much the car was turning at the time, and how much throttle was applied as they ran wide, tyre compound and various other factor. All else being equal, Sainz was worse off, but not all else is equal and you we don't have all the data.
3. What is absolutely incontrovertible is that Alonso wound on more steering lock, and more quickly than Sainz. That is a big reason as to why he was able to recover and Sainz was not. Had Alonso steered like Sainz he would have been in the wall for sure. Had Sainz steered like Alonso he *may* have been able to recover.
4. Mo-r-racing noted this oversteer recovery process must be sub-concious. They are right, you must train and practice such that it is entirely instinctive. Too late to watch my videos as the car is spinning 🙂
Snap of oversteer explained ruclips.net/video/pJVGAhUfss0/видео.html
How you can learn oversteer recovery ruclips.net/video/kQ5leWLp65I/видео.html
5 steps to learn drifting ruclips.net/video/xnDbSsxKGns/видео.html
The Circle of Traction - essential understanding for how cars work ruclips.net/video/dZ33KJ1cl_c/видео.html
Understeer recovery ruclips.net/video/jnlADJE-ER0/видео.html
Practice until you get it right, then practice until you can't get it wrong
Alonso is not a whoever F1 driver, he is one of the top F1 drivers of all time.🥰💯
What's most striking to me about this EPIC save is the reflexes it takes to do that. Especially at his age, and especially for a guy who many have said for years is too old to do this at a high level. Not only is he doing it, he's still doing it at an *elite* level, even among F1 drivers.
Alonso is another level. Top level
Not only does Alonso save it, he activates DRS at the line, Amazing.
That's a very informative explaination. Shows how the racecraft differs from the most experienced to the average good driver.
It's more car control than racecraft. The term 'racecraft' tends to mean the driver's ability to manage the race, overtake, defend, strategy, look after the car. This example is raw ability to drive, or car control.
So, Sainz was much further into the gravel and also he was on a quali lap. It makes sense to take a bigger risk and keep the foot planted. Whereas, the stakes for Alonso were much higher because it was the actual race. The amount of opposite lock for Sainz looks suspicious, I would expect a better reaction. But I guess he knew it was all lost and just resorted to "avoid the wall" mode.
Agreed yes, 3/10 in quali is not the same as 3/10 over a race. Many drivers have gambled and won, Sainz lost..but regardless of that, he still didn't get enough steering lock on quickly enough. Alonso did.
Simple, Alonso is a better driver
At his age now... He is more than just a better driver.... He is an amazing driver
the most mindfuck moment was alonso’s passing hamilton just after he saved the car
Even if Sainz counter steered rapidly like Alonso, he would still spun out because he never even modulate the throttle to stop the car spinning.
Probably yes. But he didn't even steer as well as Alonso.
43y reaction time
Alonso was much faster to respond to the oversteer. He puts on lock much earlier than Sainz
Much faster when you slow it down.
It wasn't a lot slower when we use normal seconds as our perspective.
Something that's mentioned a few times is that Sainz was further into the gravel as well which doesn't help. Also different situations in terms of a qualification lap vs a race lap.
Something else that technically isn't mentioned is that despite it being an extremely similar situation. It's impossible to know what Alonso felt, compared to Sainz.
This argument I'm trying to make is extremely difficult to explain. This is something racing drivers know fairly well, the feeling of your vehicle.
Even when you drive the exact same speed or exact same line, there are minor differences of how your car feels when taking a corner correctly.
It's a lot more noticeable in the wet with mixed conditions where the grip levels change constantly.
What I'm trying to get at is that potentially the Aston Martin provided Alonso with the "I lost the rear" feeling that slight moment earlier than Sainz. Meaning the reaction time difference was there instead of in the brain to send the wheel to the right.
Impossible to tell from any data point available. So it's much easier to just say that it's driver skill here. Which is absolutely what I think is the case here, but I don't want to say that if Alonso was back in the Ferrari & swapped seats with Sainz the moment he hit the apex.. That Alonso would've saved it.
Again, from what we can just see. Alonso did better, but I know that it just wasn't exactly the same. So it's impossible to compare.
I love this type of content & makes me miss racing!
The situations aren't precisely comparable, but comparable enough. The key point and takeaway for every driver is that Alonso a) got the lock on faster and b) put more lock on. Had Sainz done that he may have recovered. Had Alonso used Sainz' steering effort he would not have recovered. To that extent, it is worth comparing.
Agree Alonso's was asuperb save, but worth mentioning that once Sainz lost it he managed to minimise damage by getting the car to hit broadside rather than rear or front first, so just front wing damage. Note his steeering wheel as the car contacts the wall. It is straight. So some element of control still there, though of course not comparing it to Alonso's banzai save.
Sainz was a litle bit more out of the line. I reckon his entire rear right tyre was on the gravel while Alonso was just parțial on the gravel
Experience 👊
Interesting video
Glad you think so!
amazing vid by the way
For Aston Martin, Alonso is the G.O.A.T, Lance Stroll is just a goat.
Hey stop comparing Stroll to a bunch of Capras! They would still drive better than Stroll!
I feel Alonso would have expected a spin as he exited the turn 16, since he kew he carried more speed. Thats why he was so quick to correct. Sainz maybe did not.
When you drive a racecar, you need to be ready for anything, all the time. There is no expectation, there is just instinct, otherwise a crash.
disagree, Sainz was much further into the gravel than Alonso, it's not comparing apples with apples, plus the amount of bounce Sainz got from the recovery seem to be more. Skill and experience saved Alonso but anyway. what I don't understand is why people have to make videos about this kind of stuff, this is textbook stuff.
Only ignorants on the basics of physics can talk about "further in the gravel" when both cars lose the grip sufficiently to spin almost equally. Videos from straight line and onboard show a very similar behaviour as kinetically and dynamically expected. Alonso reaction was just simply better for the case...
Exactly!!!
No..
Sainz WAS further into the gravel and that does make a difference.
As soon as Alonso spun out, he was out of the gravel immediately already, so when he quickly corrected the car it reacted expectedly as it had much more grip than Sainz had at that point.
When Sainz spun out, his rear right wheel was still in the gravel as it was sliding, or atleast on the gravel that the car has brought with it on track. He didn't have any grip to support his corrections.
Yes his reaction wasn't as quick as Alonso's, but as someone else commented already, it's not entirely the same situation, so we don't know exactly how it felt for them.
But that you mention physics here and then say something like that... Well, it's questionable at the very least.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say
lol can’t believe all the Sainz fans actually defending him and saying it was unavoidable. He was marginally further to the right, his reaction time and subsequent steering speed was much slower comparatively to Alonso. Then there’s the throttle difference. These are clear facts from the video. Facts. Someone even said Sainz has 4 wheels in the gravel 🤣 “Fans” can’t comment on F1. If you can’t remove your bias don’t comment on F1.
YES! Thank you for being the voice of reason!!!
👏👏👏
Sainz should ride a bicycle more to get that instinct.
I miss the Throttle table from Sainz! Did he lift the throttle like Alonso?! I dont think so, thats why he crashed.
Couldn't find it, otherwise would have included it.
I thought something like that, thanks for reply 👍
And after that save he humiliates lulu hamster
Noob heads, saint was farther over in the gravel & chassis prob bottomed out on the curb
This is the best that they can use for propaganda to keep claiming that he is "one of the best" even when he has not won a race in 11 years. Enough with Mr. "Next season" or "next team" while he doesn't achieve anything real.
Is that what you really believe?
This is what has been happening since 2007. I challenge you to prove it otherwise. @L2SFBC
So your logic is that because he's not won a race for 11 years, he cannot be "one of the best" ?
Where in this logic considers the fact he's not been driving the quickest car for all this time? Is not "11 years on the grid" some testament to the guy's abilities?
@@L2SFBC Alonso has been focused on using propaganda to keep active in F1. He is not one of the best and he will never win again in any team. End of the story. 18 years of the same bs is enough.
18 years which has included many, many races wins, two world championships, nearly 4 or 5, and is now absolutely caning his team-mate who Vettel only just beat? Is that "18 years of the same bs"? Interested to know which drivers you think *are* good?
its important to note that this is not a mechanical process. This is all happening at a sub-conscious level, and is a great example of a driver who has that additional layer of natural feel to respond that fraction quicker to what the bum and body signals are saying. It's such a perfect example of car control from one of the best.
Very true, has to be entirely instinctive as you say!
Ultra Instinct
Alonso trained and prepared for situations like that as he showed today in his Instagram.
@@MrChologno Exactly. It's not just instinct, and not just training. It's both.
also alonso, 4. push DRS at the DRS line
I was just shocked he didn't get a penalty for erratic driving, after using the pedals differently to the lap before..........
LOL!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍
He certainly would if Russell would've been behind him 😂
sainz was slow to react whereas alonso was incredibly quick. and i mean INCREDIBLY. sainz is a great driver. alonso is other-worldly. fact
Sainz reaction times leave him on shame
Alonso is no less than ten times bettern than Sainz
Half the grid is 10 times better than Sainz
1:05 sainz is further right than Alonso. His tyres are fully in the gravel.
Sainz we much further off the surfaced area than alonso (look at the position of the front left wheel in relation to the white line). It's almost, if not a full wheel width
Yes, I did note that. But both are far enough over to lose traction.
Look at the reaction time . Look at the time Alonso took to give a full opposite lock , along with throttle lift, back on to throttle after the save and straight to DRs button. Sainz reaction time was poor compared to Alonso. It’s a comparison between great car control vs good car control.
Also, much lighter car
I'd also say Sainz wasn't able to save it cause he dipped much further into the gravel, to the point where the car probably bottomed out, whereas Alonso only nicked the 2 wheels on the gravel mostly.
What about the fact Alonso wound on steering lock more quickly, and more of it?
@@L2SFBC Of course, Alonso handled the car much better, no argue in that, considering how he managed to activate DRS with zero delay just a couple milliseconds after the save. But I think if Alonso went off as far as Sainz did in his lap, he wouldn't have been able to easily prevent spinning off.
Thanks for explaining!!
Happy to help!
Driver reaction time training are affect here and show itself
Alonso is magical ❤️
ah easy because he is him
And ANTICIPATE the recovery! Don't wait till the back end is fully gripped up to start straightening the wheel. Start to straighten the wheel the moment you have a hint of grip returning or you'll end up shooting off in the other direction.
But in a case like this, you can't wait for that either. With such an extreme slide and knowing you're gonna get an extreme recovery of grip, you have to straighten the wheel as soon as you can. It's really an educated guess, and Alonso is very well educated lol
Please , please, please go back to school! LEARN WHAT UNDER STEER IS!!!!
What happens here is exceeding the coefficents of friction! It has NOTHING to do with the steering andsuspension geometry! If it had, the car would be do it on every corner and all speeds bar really slow!
Here are a few fundamentals.
F1 cars are anti (or reverse) Akemann steering geometry, this is exceedingly important as it effects how the car over or under steers. At low speeds the car will under steer as the outer wheel is slipping. At high speed the vehicle over steers, this is because the weight on the outer wheel is increased and the lateral force of cornering increases the tyre slip angle and creates more traction (grip).
When you exceed the tyre slip angle and on your load/cornering force graph, which you should know all about, you exceed your coeffience of friction and you SKID! This is very important to driving as you want to remain in the best friction zone for the corner, it gives you speed in and out of the corner.
Over stering is NOT and should NEVER be labelled as over steer. it is not the same for specific reasons namely it is driver input request NOT vehicle attributes.
Under steering is simply not turning tight enough to make the corner - usually seen with novice drivers.
Loss of traction is when the coefficence of friction is exceeded known as a SKID - this is probably THE most important thing about keeping a car on any surface! it is not a fundamental of the steering and suspension but can be caused by them or driver input requests (throttle, steering, brake etc...)
So it is easy to see that not making a corner that is perfectly able to be made if certain criteria is met is friction related not how the steering acts when the suspension is compressed or decompressed or how tight one wheel turns compered to the other.
The key to which one you have comes down to a fair amount of fairly complicated math but is simple to see.
Understand tyre slip angle! The amount of effective slide the tyre can endure before traction is lost. You will get maximum grip at a certain tyre slip angle, This angle is different for pretty much ever car and tyre. but for some tyres it is published regarding the weight and cornering force needed to produce the greatest grip, but I digress.
Once you exceed the available grip, by whatever means whether you are driving an old Beetle (massively oversteers as the rear wheel goes under the body on tighter corners os alters the steering and suspension geometry!) or you jsut over-cooked the entry into the corner (too fast and too much driver input request) - or as clearly happens in the first clip, driver puts too much throttle on when the rear wheel has little traction as on gravel, so as the diff is probably locked, the inner wheel spins (as expected to have less grip than the outer but has more) and the car skids, it slews to the left, thus the driver input request then is to turn to the right and brake. This is NOT under steer! this is driver error. Yes, they are highly skilled drivers, but also human, they make a fair few mistakes, just not many end in a crash.
Seriously though if it was Under steer or over steer, the cheif engineer would be firing people! they don't, they accept there is driver error and carry on. Call a skid a skid, call driver input requests what they are, don't call it something it's not. It is NOT over steer or under steer. You steer into a skid, you do not steer into under steer.
Alonso is champion material Car lost is not.
bullshit
@@guyayori i mean he is right, out of the drivers on the grid he is one of 3 that has proved that he has what it takes to win a world title
The fact that you have to call him "car lost" proves what an idiot you are.
Really interesting video!!
Glad you think so!
This is nonsense. Sainz's car was further into the gravel and that's why his outer wheels had no grip. Also Carlos was doing a quali lap and Alonso was in the race, Carlos had more momentum and the car turned more into the counter direction for him to catch it. Quali laps would be all-or-nothing full-send laps, in the race that is not the case.
1. Alonso's outer wheel also exceeded its grip limit...which is why he started to spin.
2. Yes, Sainz was on a quali lap where 2/10 is more important than in the race. He gambled, didn't pay off.
3. Even allowing for the fact Sainz may not have lifted. you can see he doesn't turn the steering wheel as quick, or as far as Alonso. He should have done, and maybe then he wouldn't have crashed.
Also in Quali the fuel load is low and grip is the highest but he still crashed
@@SwaroopKadaba If his wheels are more outside, does it matter if fuel load is low? Also, he was carrying more speed, because it was a quali lap. Here even a 5 kmph speed difference would make all the difference.
@@L2SFBC not sure if there is a point to say shouldve couldve wouldve when neither you, nor I know what would have worked. Not for a single second am I saying Alonso doesn't have FANTASTIC car control, but this video is clutching at straws.
Some of this is conjecture, but the fact is Alonso got more steering lock on quicker. Could he have recovered Sain'z spin in the same way? We'll never know. Similarly, if he'd have done what Sainz did...would he have recovered? Probably not.
Alonso was luckier.
Skillful you mean!
Yes, Alonso is Lucky being a beast. The BEST.
And talent
you’re either blind or untruthful.
Sainz is further out into the gravel than Alonso was and the video stop shots you show clearly indicate it at the very point you claimed they were equal. They were not equal and that little bit of difference had a lot of impact. Sainz’s rear end kicked out further and provided less opportunity to be catchable than Alonzo had. That was the true difference based on my own 40+ years of amateur racing experience. Because I do understand the point attempted to be made here, but you truly misjudge the situation. Again, you can clearly see in the side-side freeze fame shot that Sainz was slightly further to the right than it shows Alonso to be.
Please read pinned comment which addresses your point. What you have not considered is the fact that Alonso a) wound on more lock b) did so more quickly.
What about that?