Beautiful machine. In it's day, shapers were a perfect solution to a machining need. Good to see these machines still in use and not scraped. Good video
very interesting, another reason to use the shaper, is the plesure of watching it do its thing. i have boath a shaper and a mill, and i use the shaper the moast, beacouse i love looking at it 🙂
It takes me 6 to 10 minutes to just put the vise on my mill. And the vise for the shaper is about 200lbs so I never comes off. I like doing a lot of work on the shaper instead of the mill just because the cost of HHS is so much cheaper. Then HHS end mills.
Very interesting experiments. In the small hobbyist workshop HSS has a place, and it really ought to be in preference to carbide. Less brittle, easier to resharpen and much cheaper in the long run. Thank you for another great episode. 👏👏👍😀
You were led correctly, carbide is not good with interrupted cut on any machine, this, well let's call it a 'truism' is a time served turner's mantra from when carbide first emerged in industry. Compared to HSS and Cobalt the turner's were used to, carbide was quick to degrade when turning/facing over hole pcd's etc. If you apply the logic to a milling machine, every feasible cut from any tool is interrupted by nature of the fact the tool spins. On a milling machine in industry (CNC) , it is best practice to keep the tool buried in the material as long as possible, it is the entry and exit of cuts that breaks the cutting edge down more quickly. Hope this helps demystify an age old mantra. Cheers, Jon
My favorite for old manual machines is M42 cobalt high spped tool steel,( American designation ) cuts beautifully, and is virtually indestructible at lower speeds best regards and happy holidays !
Great video Michel, Carbide is nearly always negative rake, and requires high surface speed, and high forces, compared to HSS, where positive rake is normal, with low surface speed, and reduced forces. Thanks for sharing.
Have been enjoying your Videos since being recommended by Mr Factotum. It’s so nice to see a shaper in action, it’s quite rare now. I continue to look forward to future episodes in 2022. Thank you. 🎄
Thanks for the video Michel, I had always wondered about using carbides in the shaper. I also like your innovative return damper. A very interesting session, Cheers friend and Merry Christmas to you!
The workholding is the pit fall of traditional shaper. There is vertical machines which bypass large part of problems, but they are heavy and high. Even some job shops today keep big ass Pratt, Butler, etc vertical in corner while they still have old hand who can ran it. Saves good amount of money and time not to send part to EDM shop.
Shaper. You did it backwards. I would suggest truing up the sides first, so that you have a true surface to put in the vise when cutting the front and back sides. This would give you much better holding pressure and cutting the ends square can be easily accomplished by using a square for set up. Shapers can do virtually everything a vertical or horizontal milling machine can do, and some they can't, like cutting internal splines or keyways. What killed them is that they were not really amenable to CNC technology and required an operator to sit and watch them. I love mine and it is fun to watch old technology work so well!
The ideal is to do the biggest surface first and use this as a referance to square up the others. But what I did here works too. After all, square is square.
Being a guy that did that all (well most) on the lathe for the longest time, I feel your pain 😅. That being said, whatever that part is for, it looks good! 😊 Thanks for sharing, Michel! Cheers!
I have operated shapers and millers for over 60 years. I have a 10in stroke shaper in my home workshop, no milling machine. I use a vertical slide on my Colchester lathe for any milling jobs not possible on the shaper. On carbide tools: I make my own. When brazing the tip I stack the tip as follows after cleaning everything and fluxing the bits. A shim of brass followed by a copper shim then another brass shim. Put the tip on top. Heat using a gas air blow tourch. When the brass starts to melt press down on the tip with an old screw driver or file. Let the tool cool slowly in ashes or warm dry sand If you are using oxy acetylene use soft flame. I was told as an apprentice that a fierce oxy flame can de-nature the carbide. Now the important bit is that the copper shim acts as a shock absorber protecting the tip from shock when machining say lumpy cast iron or using the tool on a shaper😅
Mele Kalikimaka from Hawaii. I always enjoyed the challenge of the setup once setup anyone can stand by and watch the machine operate and stop it in case of problems. Nice thought I worked for many years with HSS only and still like to be able to make a custom tool bit for my application.
I think the carbide can be cut and honed to a proper edge to work on the shaper. However it is still brittle and will disintegrate. I have a broken carbide endmill, I should try this some time.
Hi Michel ☺ season's greetings from Yorkshire, thanks for another interesting video, enjoying our time in our workshop is the main thing, we win some and we loose some, but it's all interesting. Here's Whishing you and your's all the best for Christmas, and a happy new year, ,Stuart Uk.
Rusti, as you say time is not such a factor for the hobby machinist. I have a shaper and I have no plan to buy a mill at the moment. If I did it would probably be a benchtop CNC mill. For me there are many advantages to a shaper - it can be quite compact, tools are cheap, it cuts keyways, and it is relaxing and nice to watch. With a bit of imagination it can be adapted for other tasks. Cheers
Very interesting, great idea with the leather even if it does not work out Its good to see you looking so well once again Merry xmas to you and your family
Maybe a strip of spring steel in place of the leather to protect the carbide. Also it would be interesting to see how it would work in a shear configuration. Cheers
Hi M Interesting comparison, I bet there's not much difference in set up times, I too can't see the point of carbide in the shaper for hobby work, like you say, time is not money for the hobbyist. take care Kev
It is not easy to drill a hole with a shaper, I have not done it and do not know if it is possible. I do know that the tooling for a shaper is BUCKET loads less expensive than that for a Mill as well as to cut an internal keyway on a Mill you have to have an expensive attachment. Each Machine has it's own pro's and cons, I love both. John, Australia. Edit for spelling. John.
Could Not argue much about setting up times on either machine. Run Times ?? Could be a Totally different story 🤔 Not much that can be made on a Decent Bridgeport Style machine. Where as a Shaper can be very limited in it's operations, when comparing to a Mill. Possibly only my thoughts of course ?? Still a good video to share 👍
On a shaper you can make whatever you want. The "run times" just depends on the way the operations are executed. This, of course counts for milling machines too.
I have both V mill , H mill and a Shaper, both the H mill & Shaper are Atlas. My Shaper is the go to for serface work. HHS stays sharper longer and much easer to tharpen, clean up of large chips is easer, the serface finish is better. The clean up for the Vmill with thoes tiny ants swords Thats a real pan in the ass, end mills dull fast and one needs a mill end shapeaner. Lately I have been using my Vmill for a drill press.Set up time seems to be in faver of the Shaper
Hi Michel, Great video as always ! I wonder if an insert that is designed for a face mill might work better ? At least the shaper doesn't look like an overgrown drill press 🤣 To me there is something mesmerising about them , it is a bit like watching a beam engine run as there are all sorts of mechanisms moving or spinning -almost as if it were alive !
A couple thoughts, Michel. Whenever you are going to shoot something that is time reliant/dependant try to get a clock into the shot... or turn the timestamp feature on in your camera... Also, I think your carbide insert experiment bears repeating. Go to your local shoe repair guy and ask for an off-cut of 1/4" thick VegTan Sole leather, way more wear resistant, and maybe thick enough that it doesn't need to go all the way under the cutting edge... Also, most cobblers are "tool guys", so if you explain what you want to do with it they will likely give it to you free, and want your Channel Name so they can see what you did with it... Bonus feature.. New subscriber!!! ;)
Found very informative and interesting...Course I am a long way from have our Klopp up and operating, but what about trying a round insert?? The Klopp does have an advantage that is has the clapp auto lift, but the leather,,yes good idea :)> ! The tare down of our Klopp has been slow,,waiting on an assemble / shop manual, and the Holiday mail service is slower than ever,,,Great and a safe Holiday's to you and all,,Bear.
Hi Michel, interesting comparison between mill and shaper. Carbide on a shaper is not a good plan, the whole benefit of a shaper is the reduced tooling cost, the minute you use carbide you lose this. Also, as you correctly point out, you just can't achieve the surface speed (although I reckon EYUP Tony had a good go on his video last night 😂😂😂). Fantastic slow motion footage, I could watch that all day long! Cheers, Jon
Carbide in the shaper is a waste of time I think, They were invented before carbide and retired before carbide. It was not a cutting tool they were ever intended to be used for. It would be frightening to see a shaper moving fast enough to use carbide (100-200m/min). Re setup time, my milling table is large enough that my vise is almost never removed. I can use the table either side for alternate setups. It's just not a fair or relevant comparison. Use the tools you have to make what you want and have fun doing so. If time was really important to you, you wouldn't own a shaper LOL.
@barrygerbracht5077 That is a very wrong statement. Carbide existed when shapers were widely used. The reason to not use carbide is: a) to brittle for the interrupted cutting b) doesnt like the varying surface speeds of the stroke. Later on, shapers were used to create very flat surfaces with exceptional finishes (like milling machines or machine tables, and mold and die work) because shaping is much faster than a grinder that you plop a whole milling machine onto.
Hello Michel, I did find the video interesting... I think as always you think outside of the box, actually I think you've thrown the box away... Take care. Paul,,
I dont know anything about a shaper besides for the few things on youtube ive seen. When it comes to how the engineering industry see a shaper machine and its application, i also dont know, yet maybe there could be variants of inserts suitable for these applications, or maybe not. However, what ive seen in your slowmotion part of video, the return stroke of the clapper box is designed to protect the cutting tool when pulling it back and up. Yet the action somehow allows the cutting tool to get knocked up and beaten. Would it be right to say its one of the few constraints of the uses of the shaper machine. For the individual who experimented with set up times, id say it may not be fair to compare them this way, the mill and the shaper are good in their own right for their application. Just my silly opinion😂
I had an idea about the carbide. We all know carbide is sensitive to shock loading, and interrupted cuts. What if there was a way to remove some of the tool pressure on the carbide? Perhaps set up a brazed on piece to mimic the way a hss cutter is ground for finishing passes?
Very interesting to see the leather piece there. I have not seen that before. What if you double up the leather and keep it short of the carbide? Might work. Good one Michel.
Always interesting Rusti 👍 I have often wondered why nobody has come up with a device/jig/attachment/thingy to hold the cutter up on the return stroke, surely it must be possible?
I've seen that very thing in an old tips and jig book I have somewhere. May have been a Lindsey Pub. Book. Simply a piece steel behind the cutter precisely set so it's edge rides the work instead of the cutting edge.
@@theradarguy 👍 Sounds like a good idea. I was more thinking of something that might be connected to the ram with offset timing to physically lift the cutter on the backstroke. Beyond my paygrade to be more precise, just an idea 🍺
Hi Mr. T. Do you think you will ever buy a milling machine ? I find I use both the shaper & mill on the same job ! is it just me but when I have got a job to do the vice always needs turning 90 degrees. Being hobbyists its good to experiment with different cutting tools, thats how we learn. Just bought some brazing flux, gonna try a go at putting some carbide on some chisels I have made for wood turning. Finally what music do you listen to on your hi-fi. Del.
I by no means am a expert but it seems like it was pushing the chip straight instead of off to the side just an idea maybe a different angle on the carbide insert would help I've noticed that with my lathe tools aluminum vs steel have different rake angles
Is a shaper more cheaper and easier way to make flat and parallel surfaces than compared to face mill doing the same task? Can this be used to shape flat for scrap granite surfaces?
@@Rustinox I wonder how I can scrape 24" x 24" x 3" rough granite surfaces of all sides using the shaper to make it square, flat and parallel, I can use HSS blanks to scrape granite? Thanks.
I'm finding the trick to good surface finish on my old shaper is a razor sharp edge. The cheap insert tooling I have doesn't have an edge like that. I've not tried to sharpen them to an edge like that, can it be done?
The leather idea is totally brilliant! While it's not really the same type of setup, I recently reconfigured 1 of my mills into its "shaper" configuration ruclips.net/video/kPe7LEVRjhU/видео.html If I recall correctly it was about 15 minutes to do that alone...that being said most simple op setup times for mills and shapers probably isn't really too bad...especially for more skilled operators...of course more complex setups like a rotary table or dividing head that's another story obviously... Even as a hobbiest time matters for me, as such I tend to try to take advantage of the speed the mill offers over the shaper, and use the shaper/slotter for there strong points when needed... All that being said, I think shapers are fantastic machines. My biggest issue with even my 14" shaper was lack of table space. Not really an issue on the Cochrane bly at least... And of course sometimes we need to work harder metal's that HSS just can't manage...
I think there ist not much difference in Time to set um this past in the Shaper or the mill. I learned you need a automatic clapper for Carbide because it is so bridle My Klopp has an automatic clapper but I mostly use hss
@@Rustinox installing and trimming the vise is about 2 or 3 minutes. Depends on the experience of the operator You can also spend 10 minutes on trimming....
Beautiful machine. In it's day, shapers were a perfect solution to a machining need. Good to see these machines still in use and not scraped.
Good video
In commercial workshops you don't see shapers anymore. Milling machines are more versatile. But in the hobby shop it can have it's place.
Who needs a milling machine when you have Rustynox.
Great video Michael.
Well, milling machines are fun too.
very interesting, another reason to use the shaper, is the plesure of watching it do its thing.
i have boath a shaper and a mill, and i use the shaper the moast, beacouse i love looking at it 🙂
That is indeed a very good reason.
It takes me 6 to 10 minutes to just put the vise on my mill. And the vise for the shaper is about 200lbs so I never comes off. I like doing a lot of work on the shaper instead of the mill just because the cost of HHS is so much cheaper. Then HHS end mills.
Yes, I can understand that a vise like that, you don't want to move it if not really needed.
Nice demonstration there Michel. Thanks for the video.
My pleasure.
Very interesting experiments. In the small hobbyist workshop HSS has a place, and it really ought to be in preference to carbide. Less brittle, easier to resharpen and much cheaper in the long run. Thank you for another great episode. 👏👏👍😀
I agree.....From Texas
I totally agree with that.
I was led to believe that carbide doesn't like an interupted cut. I confess iv'e never tried it but i will now........Cheers
You were led correctly, carbide is not good with interrupted cut on any machine, this, well let's call it a 'truism' is a time served turner's mantra from when carbide first emerged in industry. Compared to HSS and Cobalt the turner's were used to, carbide was quick to degrade when turning/facing over hole pcd's etc. If you apply the logic to a milling machine, every feasible cut from any tool is interrupted by nature of the fact the tool spins. On a milling machine in industry (CNC) , it is best practice to keep the tool buried in the material as long as possible, it is the entry and exit of cuts that breaks the cutting edge down more quickly. Hope this helps demystify an age old mantra. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Thanks Jon, appreciate that👍
Give it a go. Maybe it works just fine for you.
hello from spain rustinox...the milling machine is the Queen of de garaje,,the shaper is a good complement,,
I suppose there's pros and cons for every machine.
Great overview! Thanks!
Welcome.
I bought a beautiful Atlas 7b. I just made a stand for it, so I'll be using it soon. Hopefully, I'll be able to operate it as well as you.
Go for it and have fun.
My favorite for old manual machines is M42 cobalt high spped tool steel,( American designation ) cuts beautifully, and is virtually indestructible at lower speeds
best regards and happy holidays !
Yes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with HSS.
Great video Michel, Carbide is nearly always negative rake, and requires high surface speed, and high forces, compared to HSS, where positive rake is normal, with low surface speed, and reduced forces. Thanks for sharing.
Indeed, Carbide needs more "horses" than HSS.
Have been enjoying your Videos since being recommended by Mr Factotum. It’s so nice to see a shaper in action, it’s quite rare now. I continue to look forward to future episodes in 2022. Thank you. 🎄
Thanks Peter. More to come.
Thanks for the video Michel, I had always wondered about using carbides in the shaper. I also like your innovative return damper. A very interesting session, Cheers friend and Merry Christmas to you!
The tool protection is shown in old books. So, it's not a new idea.
The workholding is the pit fall of traditional shaper. There is vertical machines which bypass large part of problems, but they are heavy and high. Even some job shops today keep big ass Pratt, Butler, etc vertical in corner while they still have old hand who can ran it. Saves good amount of money and time not to send part to EDM shop.
Work holding isn't different on a shaper than any other machine. It's just that every type of machine has it's pros and cons. And shapers are fun :)
Really interesting content. Your videos are always so informative while being entertaining at the same time and all in a second language. Amazing.
Thank you very much.
Yeah thanks for the video, always amazed how good your English is.
Shaper. You did it backwards. I would suggest truing up the sides first, so that you have a true surface to put in the vise when cutting the front and back sides. This would give you much better holding pressure and cutting the ends square can be easily accomplished by using a square for set up. Shapers can do virtually everything a vertical or horizontal milling machine can do, and some they can't, like cutting internal splines or keyways. What killed them is that they were not really amenable to CNC technology and required an operator to sit and watch them. I love mine and it is fun to watch old technology work so well!
The ideal is to do the biggest surface first and use this as a referance to square up the others. But what I did here works too. After all, square is square.
Wishing you and yours a Merry Christmas.
Thanks. Same to you.
having a good time in the workshop,,, never a truer word spoken!
That's because it is :-)
Being a guy that did that all (well most) on the lathe for the longest time, I feel your pain 😅.
That being said, whatever that part is for, it looks good! 😊 Thanks for sharing, Michel!
Cheers!
Thanks Chris.
Greetings from Wisconsin my friend. I really enjoy your videos and hope to use my shaper as well as you use yours someday.
You will. I'm sure.
I have operated shapers and millers for over 60 years. I have a 10in stroke shaper in my home workshop, no milling machine.
I use a vertical slide on my Colchester lathe for any milling jobs not possible on the shaper.
On carbide tools: I make my own. When brazing the tip I stack the tip as follows after cleaning everything and fluxing the bits. A shim of brass followed by a copper shim then another brass shim. Put the tip on top. Heat using a gas air blow tourch.
When the brass starts to melt press down on the tip with an old screw driver or file. Let the tool cool slowly in ashes or warm dry sand
If you are using oxy acetylene use soft flame. I was told as an apprentice that a fierce oxy flame can de-nature the carbide.
Now the important bit is that the copper shim acts as a shock absorber protecting the tip from shock when machining say lumpy cast iron or using the tool on a shaper😅
That's interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Mele Kalikimaka from Hawaii. I always enjoyed the challenge of the setup once setup anyone can stand by and watch the machine operate and stop it in case of problems. Nice thought I worked for many years with HSS only and still like to be able to make a custom tool bit for my application.
I'm a big fan of HSS too. It's very versatile.
I think the carbide can be cut and honed to a proper edge to work on the shaper. However it is still brittle and will disintegrate. I have a broken carbide endmill, I should try this some time.
Go for it and give us your thoughts.
My God, that's a beautiful shaper! Wow.
You have a nice lion :-)
Enjoyed your experiment with carbide! Fun video.
Thanks Allen. I had great fun with it.
Hi Michel ☺ season's greetings from Yorkshire, thanks for another interesting video, enjoying our time in our workshop is the main thing, we win some and we loose some, but it's all interesting. Here's Whishing you and your's all the best for Christmas, and a happy new year, ,Stuart Uk.
Merry Christmas to all of you over there.
Having a good time in the workshop - says it all right there. I don't care what I am making or building, as long as I am having fun doing it.
Spot on.
Amen Greg!
Very informative! Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.
Thanks. My pleasure.
Michael thank you for a wonderful year from the Cullen Family .
Merry Christmas and happy New year.
C J Cullen
Thanks Christopher. Give them all a big hug from me over there.
Rusti, as you say time is not such a factor for the hobby machinist. I have a shaper and I have no plan to buy a mill at the moment. If I did it would probably be a benchtop CNC mill. For me there are many advantages to a shaper - it can be quite compact, tools are cheap, it cuts keyways, and it is relaxing and nice to watch. With a bit of imagination it can be adapted for other tasks. Cheers
Indeed, on a shaper you can make whatever you want. Just go for it.
Very interesting, great idea with the leather even if it does not work out
Its good to see you looking so well once again
Merry xmas to you and your family
The piece of leather is an old trick that can be used if the clapper doesn't have a tool lift.
Maybe a strip of spring steel in place of the leather to protect the carbide.
Also it would be interesting to see how it would work in a shear configuration.
Cheers
I never tried with the sheer tool. Maybe I should give it a go some day.
Never a dull moment watching your videos "Go for it"😉
Thanks Patrick. That's nice.
Merry Christmas Rusti. Stay safe, happy but most of all stay well. A.
Thanks. I!ll do my best.
Enjoyed…happy holidays
Thanks Chuck. Same to you and yours.
Great exercise Michel. Merry Xmas, see you in the New year.
Thanks. Same to you and yours.
Hi M
Interesting comparison, I bet there's not much difference in set up times, I too can't see the point of carbide in the shaper for hobby work, like you say, time is not money for the hobbyist.
take care
Kev
That's indeed my idea.
It is not easy to drill a hole with a shaper, I have not done it and do not know if it is possible. I do know that the tooling for a shaper is BUCKET loads less expensive than that for a Mill as well as to cut an internal keyway on a Mill you have to have an expensive attachment. Each Machine has it's own pro's and cons, I love both. John, Australia.
Edit for spelling. John.
Indeed, just use a machine for what it's made for.
great video... loved it
Thanks.
I'd think a much shorter leather strip, just barely touching the work piece, and soaked in oil might be a good thing.
Maybe, but HSS works better.
Could Not argue much about setting up times on either machine.
Run Times ??
Could be a Totally different story 🤔
Not much that can be made on a Decent Bridgeport Style machine.
Where as a Shaper can be very limited in it's operations, when comparing to a Mill.
Possibly only my thoughts of course ??
Still a good video to share 👍
On a shaper you can make whatever you want. The "run times" just depends on the way the operations are executed. This, of course counts for milling machines too.
Well done. I was always curious how the carbide would handle the impact of the interrupted cutting on a shaper.
All the best:
Dan
Well, it doesn't end well for the carbide :)
I have both V mill , H mill and a Shaper, both the H mill & Shaper are Atlas. My Shaper is the go to for serface work. HHS stays sharper longer and much easer to tharpen, clean up of large chips is easer, the serface finish is better. The clean up for the Vmill with thoes tiny ants swords Thats a real pan in the ass, end mills dull fast and one needs a mill end shapeaner. Lately I have been using my Vmill for a drill press.Set up time seems to be in faver of the Shaper
That's very interesting. Thank you very much.
Hi Michel,
Great video as always !
I wonder if an insert that is designed for a face mill might work better ?
At least the shaper doesn't look like an overgrown drill press 🤣
To me there is something mesmerising about them , it is a bit like watching a beam engine run as there are all sorts of mechanisms moving or spinning -almost as if it were alive !
It IS alive. No doubt about it.
A couple thoughts, Michel. Whenever you are going to shoot something that is time reliant/dependant try to get a clock into the shot... or turn the timestamp feature on in your camera... Also, I think your carbide insert experiment bears repeating. Go to your local shoe repair guy and ask for an off-cut of 1/4" thick VegTan Sole leather, way more wear resistant, and maybe thick enough that it doesn't need to go all the way under the cutting edge... Also, most cobblers are "tool guys", so if you explain what you want to do with it they will likely give it to you free, and want your Channel Name so they can see what you did with it... Bonus feature.. New subscriber!!! ;)
Well, the fun is, I am an ex shoe repair guy myself and I have pieces of leather and rubber.
@@Rustinox Awesome! That was one of the 3 jobs I had back in highschool...
Found very informative and interesting...Course I am a long way from have our Klopp up and operating, but what about trying a round insert?? The Klopp does have an advantage that is has the clapp auto lift, but the leather,,yes good idea :)> ! The tare down of our Klopp has been slow,,waiting on an assemble / shop manual, and the Holiday mail service is slower than ever,,,Great and a safe Holiday's to you and all,,Bear.
As long as you have a good time doing it, it's all good.
Hi Michel, interesting comparison between mill and shaper. Carbide on a shaper is not a good plan, the whole benefit of a shaper is the reduced tooling cost, the minute you use carbide you lose this. Also, as you correctly point out, you just can't achieve the surface speed (although I reckon EYUP Tony had a good go on his video last night 😂😂😂). Fantastic slow motion footage, I could watch that all day long! Cheers, Jon
It's the slow motion function on my phone. Works really well.
Carbide in the shaper is a waste of time I think, They were invented before carbide and retired before carbide. It was not a cutting tool they were ever intended to be used for. It would be frightening to see a shaper moving fast enough to use carbide (100-200m/min). Re setup time, my milling table is large enough that my vise is almost never removed. I can use the table either side for alternate setups. It's just not a fair or relevant comparison. Use the tools you have to make what you want and have fun doing so. If time was really important to you, you wouldn't own a shaper LOL.
" Use the tools you have to make what you want and have fun doing so"
Spot on. I cant agree more.
@barrygerbracht5077 That is a very wrong statement. Carbide existed when shapers were widely used. The reason to not use carbide is: a) to brittle for the interrupted cutting b) doesnt like the varying surface speeds of the stroke. Later on, shapers were used to create very flat surfaces with exceptional finishes (like milling machines or machine tables, and mold and die work) because shaping is much faster than a grinder that you plop a whole milling machine onto.
Good luck drilling the holes on the shaper.
That could be challenging indeed :)
The "boring thing that makes holes" for the mill is actually just called a "boring head." :)
The moment I wanted to say "boring head", I had a short circuit in my brain.
So, "thing" it became. Thanks for the tip anyway.
Hello Michel,
I did find the video interesting... I think as always you think outside of the box, actually I think you've thrown the box away...
Take care.
Paul,,
Who needs a box anyway :)
I dont know anything about a shaper besides for the few things on youtube ive seen. When it comes to how the engineering industry see a shaper machine and its application, i also dont know, yet maybe there could be variants of inserts suitable for these applications, or maybe not. However, what ive seen in your slowmotion part of video, the return stroke of the clapper box is designed to protect the cutting tool when pulling it back and up. Yet the action somehow allows the cutting tool to get knocked up and beaten. Would it be right to say its one of the few constraints of the uses of the shaper machine. For the individual who experimented with set up times, id say it may not be fair to compare them this way, the mill and the shaper are good in their own right for their application. Just my silly opinion😂
A lot of shapers have an automatic system that lifts the tool on the backstroke.
I had an idea about the carbide. We all know carbide is sensitive to shock loading, and interrupted cuts. What if there was a way to remove some of the tool pressure on the carbide? Perhaps set up a brazed on piece to mimic the way a hss cutter is ground for finishing passes?
That could work, but you loose the advantage of wear resistance of carbide.
HSS will preform the same.
Very interesting to see the leather piece there. I have not seen that before. What if you double up the leather and keep it short of the carbide? Might work. Good one Michel.
In old shaper and planer books the tool protection is shown, so it's not really new.
maybe an idea would be a torsion spring at the back of the tool holder rubbing onto the material to lift it on the back stroke
That could work.
OK, now compare cutting an internal key way in the mill and the shaper!
That would be a challenge :)
Ik heb de kleine Ai Hembrug schaafbankje gekocht, ik denk het zelfde formaar
Klinkt goed. Have fun with it!
Always interesting Rusti 👍 I have often wondered why nobody has come up with a device/jig/attachment/thingy to hold the cutter up on the return stroke, surely it must be possible?
I've seen that very thing in an old tips and jig book I have somewhere. May have been a Lindsey Pub. Book. Simply a piece steel behind the cutter precisely set so it's edge rides the work instead of the cutting edge.
@@theradarguy 👍 Sounds like a good idea. I was more thinking of something that might be connected to the ram with offset timing to physically lift the cutter on the backstroke. Beyond my paygrade to be more precise, just an idea 🍺
It is usually a feature on larger shapers with heavier tools and holders. Mostly the tool lifter is cam operated.
The automatic tool lift exists since the shaper was invented. There is even one on my machine, but it never worked.
@@Preso58 Obviously I have a lot to learn about shapers 🤣 Luckily I know a bloke that has one tho
Coz of your insert wasn't have a suitable geometry. Try to using TPGX or TPGH insert has no chip breaker. Just clean knive
I think I will stay with HSS.
Hi Mr. T. Do you think you will ever buy a milling machine ? I find I use both the shaper & mill on the same job ! is it just me but when I have got a job to do the vice always needs turning 90 degrees. Being hobbyists its good to experiment with different cutting tools, thats how we learn. Just bought some brazing flux, gonna try a go at putting some carbide on some chisels I have made for wood turning. Finally what music do you listen to on your hi-fi. Del.
The day a come across a good deal on a milling machine, I will buy it. There's absolutely no doubt about it.
I have a friend who is selling an old Aamco shaper, are there any tasks other that keyslots in which these excel over a mill?
The shaper can remove material faster than the milling machine.
But the milling machine is more versatile.
Just an idea would the geometry of the Insert holder be wrong for that type of cut?
I by no means am a expert but it seems like it was pushing the chip straight instead of off to the side just an idea maybe a different angle on the carbide insert would help I've noticed that with my lathe tools aluminum vs steel have different rake angles
Indeed, as I said in the video, the tool geometry is not correct for this application.
Good video. Do you only have a shaper?
Thanks.
I posted a shop tour on my channel.
Is a shaper more cheaper and easier way to make flat and parallel surfaces than compared to face mill doing the same task? Can this be used to shape flat for scrap granite surfaces?
Absolutely. The machine is cheaper to buy and tooling is just Hss blanks.
@@Rustinox Thank You for replying.
@@Rustinox I wonder how I can scrape 24" x 24" x 3" rough granite surfaces of all sides using the shaper to make it square, flat and parallel, I can use HSS blanks to scrape granite? Thanks.
I'm finding the trick to good surface finish on my old shaper is a razor sharp edge. The cheap insert tooling I have doesn't have an edge like that. I've not tried to sharpen them to an edge like that, can it be done?
Indeed, very sharp cutting tools give the best results.
You can grind carbide with alu-oxide or diamond wheels.
The leather idea is totally brilliant!
While it's not really the same type of setup, I recently reconfigured 1 of my mills into its "shaper" configuration ruclips.net/video/kPe7LEVRjhU/видео.html
If I recall correctly it was about 15 minutes to do that alone...that being said most simple op setup times for mills and shapers probably isn't really too bad...especially for more skilled operators...of course more complex setups like a rotary table or dividing head that's another story obviously...
Even as a hobbiest time matters for me, as such I tend to try to take advantage of the speed the mill offers over the shaper, and use the shaper/slotter for there strong points when needed...
All that being said, I think shapers are fantastic machines.
My biggest issue with even my 14" shaper was lack of table space. Not really an issue on the Cochrane bly at least...
And of course sometimes we need to work harder metal's that HSS just can't manage...
I've watched your video's on the shaper head. Aldo Machine Nut Del. That's what inspired me to make this video on setups and carbide.
I think there ist not much difference in Time to set um this past in the Shaper or the mill.
I learned you need a automatic clapper for Carbide because it is so bridle
My Klopp has an automatic clapper but I mostly use hss
I also think that the setup time is about the same for both machines.
@@Rustinox installing and trimming the vise is about 2 or 3 minutes.
Depends on the experience of the operator
You can also spend 10 minutes on trimming....
You can make anything on a shaper except money
The kind of statement made by those who don't know how to run a shaper.