Can We PLEASE Have An Honest Conversation about Davros? I'm Begging You All - DOCTOR WHO DISCUSSION
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
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Purely as a fan, I'm much more excited at the idea of exploring early Davros than simply dropping him into every Dalek story.
Agreed. Everything under the sun has been done with Davros at this point he's basically window dressing for a Dalek story every few years. Being able to see him pre genesis, and pre Dalek, it leaves a lot of interesting stuff one could explore with him to actually deepen his character.
mayhaps an expansion on I Davros
I remember watching classic Doctor Who for the first time and having no idea that he was in every Dalek story after his origin one.
As a fan, I don't mind a different time frame. In fact, I always pictured that period pre-Genesis as being an interesting plot point. But I think the special changed essential aspects of the character and the setting to the point I stopped caring about a reinterpretation of Terry Nation's work. He will probably still be a part of every Dalek story, but it's a more Dalek-lite period at least.
I didn't know there was enough room down the back of RTDs trousers for all them tongues. These specials might be alright but when it comes to the new series it's going to be business as usual gay,trans whatever full steam ahead this time because that was the deal he made with Disney+ was to make it more educational (adult and more sexualised.) Wait and see.
I don't count it as canon so it doesn't affect me too much. But I'm not impressed with RTD. It's a prequel, that whole "Can't associate disability with evil" was a completely unnecesary thing to say.
It's also unrealistic, because disabled people can be good and bad because they're nothing different from nondisabled people. It's patronising to suggest that a disabled person would be offended by it.
Many people who do not buy into woke crazy GB News debates , or think the BBC is amazing, appreciate nuance arguments.about these inclusion & make rational arguments against this change. I am put off by the moral certainty of RDT, just like the moral certainty people have about Brexit.People who insult or label RDT can be called out - but that doesn't make him right. The BBC did not say Russell we want a Dalek skit or revisit and change completely Genesis of the Daleks. It was his decision and could have chose something else. Perhaps something actually about the specials (i think Moffatt did the mini-episode with Paul McGann), so disappointed RTD could manage this!! So lets call out some fans who are intolerant - but appreciate this is very divisive. He could have chosen not to use Davros while showrunner or Executive Producer.
We cannot unimagine or forget the Davros we have seen - Russell had no problem with this in 2008 judging by Dr Who Confidential, It is sad that there is no accountability or engagement with many reasonable fans. Also this will have implications for the Daleks, as how can a human Davros lead this creatures who have mobility issues!!
@@johnmorris2414 Fuck sake have people not learnt to stop lobbying for the people THEY think are offended when there hasn't been a peep about the state Davros is in. Fuck me he survived getting blown up, taught other Kaled surgeons and scientists how to give him some sight,hearing and showed them how to build a LIFE SUPPORT MACHINE that isn't a wheelchair because like the Daleks it hovers. Anyway Davros should be celebrated for the impressive work he utilised to stay alive, alright he created the Daleks but until the Doctor arrived with Sarah and Harry it wouldn't have gone any farther than Skaro, it was believed by Davros and of course all of Skaro that it wax the only planet capable of supporting life. It therefore was the Time Lords themselves that pushed Davros into adding the variational chromosomes that left them without pity or concious. If they'd left well alone it would have just been Skaro. And anyway what happened to the Time Lords power to place forcefield around planets and make it like they had never existed including the people who lived there? The Daleks were obviously much more dangerous than those incompetent War Games fools? But they let the loose on the universe.
For christsake dont TV sets have off switches anymore? If your kids disabled and you don't want them to go all mushy because one villain in one TV show happens to resemble someone, slightly in a wheelchair just switch the TV off or over. Scottish have had nothing but bad press from the English for years but that's just friendly banter, and there are quite a lot of disabled people in Scotland....but that's alright just a bunch of sweaty socks (disabled Scots as well of course.) Do you see the can of worms that RTD has (deliberately under orders from Disney+)opened just for a bit of publicity. The skit was garbage,wasn't in the slightest bit funny,proved yet again D.Tennent is not anywhere near the best Doctor ever. And if he didn't want his little gold soapbox moment to tell all us unfeeling, racist,uncultured disabled people hating morons how to live because of course we can't differentiate between right and wrong unless Russell (and his Disney + masters) tell us what to do. By fuck its pathetic all they had to do was write a little story that didn't involve anyone getting up on their gold soapbox oh and reminding us that unless your on the telly you're not worthy but the way they're going about is all wrong because what is happening is all this virtue signalling is leaving us with TV that isn't even watchable anymore. And no I'm not saying that physically challenged or disabled people (like myself)people from different cultures backgrounds or anything like that can't act or present programmes, but it's pretty obvious that some people are being pushed aside who may have more talent than the person who got the job. For instance all that crap RTD was spouting about Ncuti being the most talented person and was the last audition blah blah. He'd just been working with bloke and he was acting as if he'd never met him before .....the truth is he'd already decided he was going to be the next Doctor, probably got a shag out of it for giving him the job. Remember he threw John Barrowman under the bus once he was getting nowhere. But another case of good looks versus real acting talent which John doesn't have IMO. But as soon as he gets his hands on Dr.Who in the very first episode it's all full of sexual innuendo which by the end of season 1 it's like a cross between the adventures of...........soft porn films from the 70s......and the Goodies. John Simm badly miscast as the Master, another bad choice but the worst of all D.Tennent as the Doctor and B.Piper well her character name doesn't matter, what acting talent did she have? Zero. As I mentioned before he should stick to his oversexed same story,different housing estate garbage that he has been writing since the early 90s. Dr Who is just not the platform for this kind of sexualised content. There are plenty of other shows that can deal with that. And I'm not a prude by any stretch of the imagination, but can't young people just get it off for an hour a week to just have a bit of escapism for a change. And I know this is going to be controversial but I think that little Lenny that presented CINEED is completely talentless unless your dealing with 4-6 year olds. Anyway it'll all come out in the wash....eventually when Disney+ have the Programme in their paws for a while. Mind you it's probably what the people of this country think makes them more like their foolish American counterparts sad sad sad.
Is it wrong to think a disabled person has the potential to do evil as much as a non disabled person?
Everyone has the right to evil
The half of this conversation I haven’t seen a lot of is the fact that there too little representation and acting opportunities for disabled people. It’s not that Davros in a wheelchair is wrong, it’s that the trope exists in relative vacuum of positive representation. Until this is addressed we’re going to see a lot of awkward fixes, assumptions, and disagreements along the way. RTD is doing the best he can in this current moment.
@@SailorDisco He hasn't done his best. The best thing would be to just not include davros
Excellent points!
The thing is also, showing Davros before the accident is an great possibility to show that he was an deeply evil person long before he became disabled. Because fans might know his backstory already but the casual viewer probably won't - it actually opens up more ways to show the complexeties of why he is evil AND disabled, rather than give the idea that he's evil because he’s disabled.
But also, I'm not sure RTD genuinly has plans for Davros beyond the Children in Need sketch. My guess is he wanted to write a fun little skit about why Daleks have plungers and naturally he included Davros since he's the creator. Then they were faced with the discussion of if it was bad taste in relation to children in need and an audience that may be unfamiliar with Davros. And so they decided ”no this is 2023, we don't want to reproduce that trope” and went with a pre-disfigurement Davros. And then, as you point out, RTD described that a bit clumsely.
I`m not a dwarf, but I am 4 foot 4 and I once had a social worker kneel down treating me like a child, and I was in tears begging her to stand up and talk to me like a normal adult. she literally refused to stand up properly, her desire to pretend I was 10 years old, just because my height conformed to the average 10 year old, was more important to her, then to not treat me abusively.
I am so sorry you had to experience that!
Sometimes people are not aware that doing such thing can be seen as patronizing towards the other person. Perhaps they think they're respecting the person by trying to talk on the same level like any other person they meet but it's usually not the expected outcome when the perspective is different. When you showed embarrassment or offense by the treatment, that should've been the hint to stop. We're all human after all.
People tend to react to the difference of a person rather than the petson themselves
Personally, I couldn't care less about someone's difference. I judge people by their actions
I love how much fans hated 'woke' Chris Chibnall. My god, they're not ready for RTD2.
It’s hilarious, because Chibnall’s era actually wasn’t that political, at least compared to other eras. Everyone loves to throw around how ‘woke’ Chibnall was but in the nitty gritty, his stories didn’t really say much. Even in a politically loaded image of the Daleks outside No. 10, there’s no actual commentary in the episode. And if It’s A Sin and Years and Years are any indication… then, oh boy, they really aren’t ready.
And by the way, this isn’t a criticism of RTD. I loved It’s A Sin and the vast majority of his work on Doctor Who, and I have yet to see Years and Years. If anything I’m more critical of Chibnall being LESS overtly political with the messaging.
I love how you lot here seem excited about that.
I like the new look, I think Both "forms" are good in my book
Ironically, RTD would have caused *less* controversy if he'd kept quiet.
Also, the stuff about Roger Lloyd-Pack is *not* true: Writer Tom MacRae told Doctor Who Magazine in issue #369 that this did not necessitate any rewriting: the script had always had Lumic in a wheelchair as this became part of his motivation for creating the Cybermen given that he was in a wheelchair and dying and wanted to prolong his life.
genuinely, no one would have cared if he didn't say it
Exactly. RTD is just a performing monkey for Disney+ now and was probably told to say it to keep the publicity machine in tow. He should never have been brought back because all that crap he came out with acting as if he hundreds of people and Ncuti just happened to wow everyone with his audition. Simple fact is he fancies him,just like he fancied D.Tennent which is probably what Christopher Eccleston found out and knew that RTD was just waiting on him becoming available which obviously wasn't what he wanted to hear. I'm no prude not by a long chalk but during his last stint not 10 minutes had gone past and Rose's mother was all over Christopher Eccleston,making her look like a right tart and by the end of his stint there was Captain Jack who RTD threw under the bus to make himself look better....obviously John Barrowman said no as well.
Dr.Who is a family show and when Mary Whitehouse ruled the roost he wouldn't have even got away with the Doctor kissing Rose, which is probably the reality of the situation because what would a 900 year old time traveller want with Billie Piper anyway. There is nothing in her that they would have to talk about or anything.....he should have gone back for Sarah Jane (who Davies ruined within 5 minutes having her jump about like a love sick 13 yr old.)when he finished up on Gallifrey. Fucking Billie Piper.......Nuffield said.
Same thing with the clothes! Him not having Tennant wear Jodie's outfit, created more controversy than if he just had him in the outfit!
If they did that they could've had scene in the first anniversary special where the Doctor in a callback to The Christmas Invasion goes in the Tardis wardrobe and finds his old suit but similarly to the 11th Doctor in the Bells of Saint John, decides to go for a new variation of his old outfit! That would've been really cool and perfect for an anniversary special!
@@PickyPaigeyes expecially when The master was wearing Jodie's outfit on the same episode.
I’m a wheelchair user. Doctor Who is my favourite show, I bonded to it when I got sick as a kid. In a lot of ways this show has helped me feel better about my disability, but the prevalence of “evil cripples” in the show, especially in the RTD era, has bothered me for a long time. (It’s something I’ve never felt comfortable speaking up about because I knew precisely the kind of reaction I would get from most people.)
I think Davros is a great villain and I’d even like to do a cosplay of him one day! Disabled people should be represented in all forms, this includes villains, but when we are overwhelmingly portrayed as evil it can be actively harmful. Up until recently, the only people who look like me in my favourite show are villains. That is a problem.
Russell acknowledging that this trope exists, and is seen especially often in Doctor Who, means so much to me. Personally I think as long as the able-bodied incarnation of Davros remains in a prequel context I’m happy with it! As always I’m grateful for your channel being a space for mature conversations about these things!
people who say they dont care if the evil cripple trope gives impressionable children negative attitudes towards disabled people seem to have no empathy whatsoever. I knew one woman who literally had a phobia of men in wheelchairs. it seems obvious where she got that phobia.
@@lexruptori like how people are saying that nobody gonna thinks disabled are evil bc an evil character is disabled, but the same camp is verry concerned about if white men gonna seen as evil if all the villians are white. And also being only concerned for the heroes to be replaced.
We all know in the down of our could hearts that representation in media matters
@@katokianimationit’s not even up for debate anymore how our media affects us and our viewpoints. The question is how much. Intellectually, we can know that disabled people aren’t evil, but if our only exposure to them is through characters such as Davros, than that’s still damaging to how we feel and our sympathies.
Name more than five villains that are disabled in Dr Who.....bet you'll have trouble with that. And it's got to be visible disability, like Davros or.Max Capricorn. Not a very big list is it.
What about Dortmun and the other disabled good guys? Try listing them as well. You'll soon find that the good guys far outnumber the bad ones. In fact it's only when we get to the RTD era we see all the shoddy so-called writing that everything becomes more hypocritical and piss taking. How do you think people who suffer from flatulence reacted to the Slitheen? You can not please everyone as Davros says in Genesis. People will always disagree with each other and that's why we have shows like Dr.Who
@@bendream544 name more than five disables characters in general. That’s the point here. That there are so few disabled characters and the major one is one of the most evil beings in the universe.
As long as every time Davros is shown without his chair/scars is pre-Genesis, then I'm completely fine with it. If they start messing about with the timeline and retcon him, then that would be a problem. My main issue though is that, regardless if you personally enjoyed the Chibnall era or not, this was a moment to reintroduce Tennant and unite the fractured fanbase, but instead the only thing people are talking about this which has seperated the fanbase a bit more (in my opinion, Davros was probably the wrong villain to use in the first place for a throw away charity sketch but hey-ho).
I'm not really angry at Russell for what he did, cause I think that he's a good man that at the end of the day, has the best of intentions. However, I don't think this is how Davros should be portrayed from now on. It would be nice to get a mix of both pre accident Davros and the Davros we all know and hate.
At one point in the Children in Need episode, when the Doctor appears, he does say, at one point “the timelines and the canon are rupturing”. I think that might be why some people are worrying that RTD intends for Genesis of the Daleks etc to be retconned so that Davros was able-bodied all along. I am hoping that one line in a CiN special isn't intended to lead to that. I certainly wouldn't be happy if that were the case.
That being said, I thought it was great to see him pre-life support unit. As RTD rightly said, that was entirely appropriate for Children in Need. I'm not averse to seeing Davros pre-life support unit going forward either, whether that be pre-Genesis stories or post Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar stories. If they are stories set in Davros's future though, I would at least like to see some kind of explanation of how Davros became able-bodied again - but not just by having time being re-written. Davros is a genius. Surely he can grow himself another body, or use Time Lord energy - or something. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that as long as what has gone before is still acknowledged - not all the time, but once in a while - then I am happy to see this change moving forwards.
I do feel some of RTD’s wording was incredibly ham-fisted, but certain folks seem to be wilfully misunderstanding what he is trying to say. Anyway, I've tried to be as eloquent as possible on an iPad keyboard. Hopefully I am making some kind of sense.
Thanks for pointing out that quote! According to the transcript at chakoteya 14th's exact words were _The timelines in the canon are rupturing._
What the heck, *canon* in my understanding is the set of rules and events which are agreed upon by authors and analysed by fans for a specific show. This is not something a character would say in-universe. The 12th doctor wouldn't say the time lords changed the canon by giving me more regeneration cycles, would he?
Either this is very sloppy writing or a hint RTD has the intent to 'rupture the canon' indeed. Or am I over-interpreting here, English is not my native language?
Davros still has regeneration energy right? So he could just regenerate.
In all fairness, I do have a very big DW fan friend and a very progressive person who is a wheelchair user and he was unhappy with this decision. Personally I just think it's Doctor Who, you can retcon almost anything in it, I don't see such a big issue with it. Davros is usually pointed to as an example of negative portrayals of disability, so I understand why RTD came to this decision, but sometimes you can miscalculate these changes and they can end up backfiring. I do think Julian Bleach is the kind of actor who can carry this off however. If it goes totally unexplained I think there will be a problem, but if they are able to explain this future change in a sensible way and not with just one silly throw away line then we can move forward and get used to it.
No Davros doesn't portray disabled people as evil. He is evil and megalomaniacal and it probably all started, or came to the surface when he was crippled. Fuck sake he is just a fictional character, and maybe shouldn't have been in Dr.Who CINeed sketch. But it was put there so that RTD's soapbox can get its gold makeover. In the past people would have ignored him,switched him off or just called him a fat poof and got on with there life's. All this PC has gone way too far. And there are still people who think humanity is going to be travelling out on space one day hob nobbing with aliens etc. That is never going to happen because people can't live in peace long enough on Earth for that to happen.....and they're going to re-elect Trumpet so the world's doomed anyway. You just watch him sniffle out of charge after charge because of what? Money money money.......
Interesting question, does Cassandra count as differently abled? No one chooses to be differently abled, but she chose to get all these surgeries not because she was in a life threatening situation, but because she thought it made her more beautiful. Idk, probs talking out of my arse but that to me is a weird one
That’s interesting. I guess she would count in the same way that someone who deliberately sawed off their legs would.
I think Cassandra is more of a satire on what happens when bodily modification in the name of vanity is taken to extremes. I'm almost certain she's heavily based on Jonathan Pryce's plastic-surgery obsessed mother in Terry Gilliam's classic film _Brazil._
@@ftumschk huh, I never thought of that connection to Brazil. I think you’re right about the satire part.
im a disabled trans person and Cassandra is one of my favourite underrated villains, I would be very peeved if RTD retconned her like davros.
But wasn’t the Daleks unit based on his travel unit not the other way round.
Eh. Maybe that was the intention in 1975, but it’s not as if this show has ever had that rigid a canon, especially in minor details.
@@samuelbarber6177 when his anger at the universe being what kick started the time war and what we believed was the destruction of the time lord you would think that was part of a 30 year ark .
We are way over due for the Doctor to have a wheelchair bound companion
Yes! Especially if they work on the accessibility of the TARDIS (i.e. getting in and out, and up the ramp/stairs, etc).
We are also way overdue to have a Welshman as the Doctor. We've already had three Scots, so why not?
But like, they frequently have to run away from stuff. How would that work with someone in a wheelchair?
I always saw Davros as Half-Dalek. Anyways, if it's meant to be otherwise, it'll eventually get retconned.
“Jaws” summary-a shark does nothing wrong, but is stalked and killed up by a bunch of drunken hairless monkeys.
The fear is prolly that it’ll take away what makes Davros so iconic, if he is fully fixed he’ll be unrecognisable aside from the voice.
There is a way around fully fixing Davros while still making him iconic, just give him cybernetic legs beneath the life support system and a new arm so he can catch The Doctor off guard it’ll be like a transformers thing.
Keep Davros’ third eye aswell.
Or make him a full on dalek, which I would prefer over Davros just suddenly wanting to walk on two legs and has his left arm back.
@@Donnlour They’ll more or less be prosthetics or something like that, jet boosters and what else not so he isn’t pushed around anymore lol
This isn't a 'cancellation', he's working within the continuity to update how this character is viewed to lower future harm on people with disabilities. I support this desigion, however I will point out that part of the trope is able bodied people becoming disabled as a narrative punishment. Villians can be disabled. But with such a long history of disability being used as some sort of correlation for true evil, no villain should be disabled in this day and age without THOUGHT. And that's what this is. Thought has been put in here, to not retcon 'he could walk all along' but give another side to his story.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
It was definitely a smart move to not use Davros's old design for the sketch; plus it's cool to see pre-accident Davros as it shows that him being evil has nothing to do with being disabled.
I've decided just to take my own personal stance on this matter: My viewpoint: I think it's fine to have an abled bodied Davros and that we have to acknowledge that the original design is part of an unfortunate trope in media, but at the same time, it's difficult to decide how you'd handle Davros post-Witch's Familiar.
I think the only reason I never percieved evil with disability is that I grew up on a few things that had good disabled characters in it, eg. Balamory; that old BBC One ident with the basketball players in wheelchairs. I think the point I'm beginning to get is that if you don't grow up around disabled people or see positive portrayals then something like Doctor Who is going to give you a negative interpretation on disabled people.
But another part of me wonders: is the trope still a thing in modern stuff: I mean, there are so many disabled protagonists now in many things, so is it really that bad to still have disabled bad guys every now and then? It could work if you try to establish that they've been evil long before whatever caused their disability or that unrelated circumstances led them to being evil, but another problem is, would you be able to make that clear even with a backstory? Couldn't some people still get offended?
But it bloody well makes more sense
Do you honestly think that us Dr Who fans are that fucking stupid we can't differentiate between fact and fiction? Oh look here comes a man on a mobile wheelchair.....oh shit run it's Davros or 1 of his evil twisted disabled mates....wwaaaahhhh. Its people like yourself that are the dumb cunts creating all this whoo ha over nothing. I've got a few disabilities myself. I grew up in children's homes full of disabled children and I can remember the big reveal of Davros and all the children loved him especially the handicapped because it didn't matter to them he wad in a motorised chair apart from the fact they didn't have one. Also the reveal wasn't spoiled by people like Mr Tardis who by the way knows virtually nowt about classic Dr.Who, also that other bunch of nobodies at Who Culture...they know absolutely nothing of genuine Dr.Who, they should all be tested on their knowledge of the programme before they're allowed to do shitty little channels like these. I bet that Australian tosser Crispy Pro(its all in the sad sad name folks)couldn't even list the Doctors in order and yet he's waffling a load of shit about a programme he virtually knows nothing about.....and nothing about the bloke gay / straight or whatever, he is just a fucking plum and is not a good spokesperson for the show he KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT.
Ok. I gotta ask. How come we get all this Davros discourse with this mini flashback special, yet Witch's Familiar got a free pass? Like, I know he's a kid in that and he's much older here, but we don't know how old he was when this happened. All he says in the show is "Many times in the last 50 years, factions have tried to interfere with my research here, they have failed. they will fail again". So we know he's definitely above 60, but who knows when exactly the bomb hit. I.Davros Part 3: Corruption suggests he was in his 30s, but I'm not sure if the mainline fandom regards I.Davros as canon or not.
And yes. The special DOES contradict I.Davros part 4: Guilt. But Big Finish contradict themselves all the time. The Davros Mission and The Juggernaughts directly contradict each other about the conflict inbetween Revelation and Remembrance. Again...no discourse about that. So why all the hubub now?
It's funny because another thing in that particular episode was never brought up or made a big deal of. Missy had a line of dialogue to the daleks when they refer to her as a timelord "time-lady, some of us can afford the upgrade" yet in spyfall when the doctor said "I've had a upgrade" everyone when mental. End of the day it's a Children in Need sketch. It's goal was to raise money and it did that. Its crazy how this has blown up into this debate
@@anthonyfisher-7090 I, frankly was just glad to see Davros again for the first time in 8 years. The SECOND i saw the uniform, I knew who it was and I was GLUED to the screen.
Remembrance doesn't deserve anywhere near the respect it gets. There's nearly no script left when you take it the silly premise the Doctor who hadn't even met the Daleks, all of a sudden has made this plan of stealing the Hand of Omega to wait and start a war with 2 Dalek factions (which again goes against the way the Daleks were created)the junkyard looks nowt like the original. And then you've got S McCoy whose attempts at comedy are woeful, most of the time you can't understand a word he is saying (and I Come from 16-18 miles down the road from him! As for his attempts at serious acting? It's so bloody cringeworthy it makes you embarrassed to be from his neck of the woods and as for Terry Molloy's Davros so badly written and for once by Terry a terrible performance poor guy. And those silly wobbly Daleks just made the show laughable to the point of pisstaking. Didn't anyone think that people were just going fall about laughing, except me because I was too busy crying because I knew then it was 'the final end.' It's like it hasn't come back yet because the new stuff is just all about relationships and that bullshit. There's enough soap operas on the telly already but that's what it is now a fucking stupid soap opera set sometimes in space. The Doctors immortal-no threat no menace. He is being played by the next worst Doctor - David Tennant and its being handed over again to another Scotsman(well sort of) who again has comedy written all over him. Even that one line he says at the end of the power of the Doctor is just cringeworthy and delivered terribly I think some people are going to be given the fright they didn't expect. He is no Catherine Tate and how all of a sudden people are going to see that,in fact if it weren't for her I would have switched off then,but she kept me going through it because she behaved like someone who would do being chaperoned through time and space. A couple of episodes later. It's Moffats turn and thats when the story really changes into a pile of shit. Anyway I've got to chat to the nurse again so bye for now
@@anthonyfisher-7090 exactly. Why couldn't they done another short sketch like Time Crash? They knew what they were doing alright. Pure publicity stunt. Is nobody pissed off by being lectured at as if we're all schoolkids and RTD is the holier than thou teacher. Smoke and mirrors to hide from the reality of RTD dancing on strings.....as if he's got his own Toymaker. He has Disney+ I'm telling you the shows doomed Ncuti won't last longer than 2 seasons max. Everyone saying he's the next Tom Baker ha ha ha.
@@bendream544 That's your opinion. And I'm not gonna stop you from enjoying nor vocalizing it, but at the same time, I have the polar opposite opinion (with the exception of the point about Moffat, who I think did make the show into a soap opera in space). I love Remembrance, love RTD's work, look forward to Ncuti as the doctor and adore David as 10 and 14. I'm not here to lecture you, of course not. I can see this has erked you, much the same way Quinton Reviews' review of End of Time erked me, but regardless, if we respect each others' opinions and enjoy the parts of this show we like, then we'll see less of this reactionary crud and be a better fanbase as a whole.
I haven't finished the video yet so apologies if you make this point in the video. But what I don't understand is this:
Given that drag artists have also had a long history and stereotype of being represented as evil and villainous in srories, and have also been marginalized by society, why is it okay to make Jinkx the main villan but not okay to for Davros to be in the chair? Also why was he so afraid of having Tennant in Jodie's clothes with the regeneration? I feel like RTD is a little inconsistent with possitive progressive ideas. Still excited for Jinkx's character though and for this new era don't get me wrong
Very excited for the new era too, and also worried about having the only drag cast member playing a villain. I do trust in Russell that he has an answer to that aspect though which isn’t the more conservative ‘actually drag people can go screw themselves’.
I feel like this whole discussion around Davros deserves to be treated with way, way more nuance. In part because it also ignores the fact the new Tardis apparently has an accessibility ramp and the upcoming specials has a new wheelchair-bound character that seemingly isn’t a villain.
I think this discourse also wouldn’t be nearly as harsh if Russell wasn’t - let’s face it - trolling conservatives. Because the short itself and it’s additional context doesn’t suggest revisionism. This is a broad-strokes prequel to Genesis, this is a Children In Need short, this is not the first time we’ve seen Davros standing and this shows that Davros had turned villainous before he became disfigured and disabled.
@@Amy-J It's nice to have an intelligent person reply to one of my comments for once haha. Yeah I agree with all of your points here. It was just something I noticed that not many people are talking about. The whole drag person villain trope is so overdone and sometimes can be a harmful similarly to the evil wheelchair user trope. I do have faith that RTD will carefully represent all these different characters in a way that isn't harmful.
@@Darth_Wallace Oh trust me, I’m relishing the intelligent discussion like finding an actual oasis in the desert 😅
As it stands, we’ve had hundreds of years of stories where anyone considered an ‘other’ has been disproportionately portrayed as villains both in and out of stories. I think there’s a few approaches RTD can take to set a positive example going forward though, I’d personally want to see a kinda ‘two sides of the same coin’ approach.
People would therefore be allowed to play both sides in stories, while also being given heroes and positive role models to look up to. All the while visibly showing everyone else that evil is not something defined by - for example - being disabled or being in drag.
I think he was more afraid of having Tennant in Jodie’s outfit just because of what the tabloids what say. It might sound silly, but I think there is a real fear of some outlet like the Sun getting an image of Tennant in the woman Doctor’s outfit and using that in some kind of hit piece.
@@samuelbarber6177 Apparently (and don’t quote me on this cause I’ve only heard about it), that was actually the reason the clothes regenerate too. I’m sure someone will write some throwaway line to explain it lore-wise lol.
I understand that the trope is bad, but rewriting a disabled character to be nondisabled is equally not on.
It's not re-writing though. It's a prequel.
@@MrTARDIS Yeah it's written as a prequel but if this is how we're gonna see Davros moving forward I'd rather they retire the character. Its just going to make the Canon a complete mess.
Davies said his reasoning was because "we can't associate disability with being evil". its a ridiculous argument.
@@blueknight07 I think some progressives can sometimes try so hard to look like they're doing a good thing for minorities and end up shooting themselves in the foot. I know its well intentioned though
@@MrTARDISDestination: Skaro is a Prequel (or at least set earlier in Davros's timeline than Genesis of the Daleks), but Russell's comments: "And Davros used to look like that, and he looks like this now, and that we are absolutely standing by" and "So of all the nights to make this change, I thought it was absolutely vital to do this, and I'm very, very, very proud of the fact that we have." seem to suggest that this will be the status quo for Davros going forward (at least under Davies) regardless of when the episode is set.
Though obviously we should wait to see if Russell actually uses Davros again in his tenure, and how he utilizes the character before jumping to conclusions.
then his acciedent is very close. since in genesis davros 1st reveals the travel machine to the Kaleds. one way to do it is have this be an alternative universe davros. @@MrTARDIS
The discourse about Davros redesign just proved RTD is right about ableism existing around the evil cripple trope. Being an ableist asshole is the worst way to prove that ableism doesn’t exist around Davros. The Daleks are suffering from oversaturation since the 1960s and good villains should not be so easily ruined by redesigns and Storm Trooper aiming. "Fans are clingy complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it." - Ben Yahtzee Croshaw
I think a decent chunk of the problem is coming from how exactly Russell is explaining it. Cause what I'm getting from it is, that Russell wanted to use Davros but doesn't like the disabled aspect of his character due to the trope, meaning he plans to present Davros (as a prequal or otherwise) this way in the show, but chose to reveal the change on Children in Need rather than an episode. It's like he's trying to hide a Davros story while also being blatant that Davros is coming back and so that's limiting his explanation. And if Davros isn't coming back, then it feels a lot more like a retcon rather than the entry point to a larger event, the fact the short feels like throwaway filler doesn't help matters.
Furthermore his line of "This is how we see Davros now. This is what he looks like, this is our lense, this is our eye", this line is what really makes it sound like a retcon to the character, rather than a prequal. He doesn't outright say whether this is a retcon or just for prequals, but he really should've instead of "This is how we see Davros now. This is what he looks like".
And of course anyone who is a massive fan of the expanded media such as the I, Davros series from Big Finish, are just going to be annoyed as we have the character's history.
And one final point, yes I know I'm going on a bit. But I don't understand Russell's line of "Thing's used to be in black and white, they're not black and white anyone", like is he talking literally by comparing it to the evolution of film and tv, or figuratively as in terms of everything's a grey in terms of taste?
here is my take and why I think RTD is incorrect. I think making new disabled heroes is good but I dont see what changing davros achieves. are minorities just not allowed to play villains anymore?
The thing is, Davros isn’t played by a disabled actor
@@toyguy119 I know but I was responding to what RTD said and he never made that point. he was more against the idea of minorities being villains seemingly. I've also never thought about disabled people when watching davros until the last week
I think using Jaws as an example is bad since the negative perception of sharks didn’t spring out of the aether fully formed from Jaws, it was simply going off an understandable fear of the animal that long predated it.
We don’t have good evidence in favor of a causal relationship between fiction and reality the way people assume it does.
I acknowledge it's not a perfect one-to-one comparison but if you can get on board with the idea of people's perceptions being influenced by a single piece of media or a collective trend...then you can follow that train of thought to other truisms.
They hated him the first time but they eventually loved him
I took it was Davros before he was disfigured, thats how i look at it
I don't mind Davros being able bodied but as a disabled person myself I see it fitting in with the context of the sketch as it was before his accident that left him mutated and scarred. As long as they can fit it into the future context of the show I don't have any problem with it. But I will miss the amazing prosthetic work of Davros with the disfigured face and the blue electric eye with the life support vehicle that acts as a wheelchair. It was just an amazing piece of design and craftsmanship. As long as Jillian Bleach is playing Davros then I'm happy as he understands the character well.
My honest opinion is RTD has made an immensely stupid decision with Davros. That is all.
As a wheelchair user think if it's a full time change it's definitely a mistake . If its' just a representative of pre-accident Davros that would be fine and when I first watched it that's what I yjought the mini-special was showing . Aldo Russell strictly seaking it's ot just a wheelchair it's a life support system . The quote says this IS how he and the production team see the character now implying this is how the character will be . The change appears to be for good . Did Russell actually actually consult wheelchair user.s and if so how many before making this decision? If it's a couple of BBC employees that isn't a big enough sample size for me. Davros wasn't was one of the first disabled characters depicted in television . Davros might be evil be he also has genius intellect so is RTD saying disabled people cann't be intelligent either ? I hope not. If RTD thought Davros was problematic he should have just retired the character. I wonder what Terry Nation would make of the change? Another question I would have if you think depicting physically compromised beings is offensive then why haven't the look of the Daleks themselves changed? and put Dalek thought processes and sensibilities into normal human bodies?
I think having davros be shown as evil and the creator of the daleks before any possibile accident is already a massive step forward, I've seen one video on here where they say the change is bad as it was the accident that made him so evil and they specifically said that the accident removed the last of his humanity in said video which is exactly the problem with having disabled characters depicted as evil so often. I was initially unsure about the change but the insane backlash and some people's reasoning has made it pretty clear that it was 100% the right decision and if people care more about canon than harmful tropes then they probably need to have a long hard look at themselves tbh
So you wanna just disregard Genesis of the Daleks?
I haven’t seen any “insane backlash”..Just people disagreeing with a decision they don’t like.
I feel like Davies’ statement is a bit unclear. I think we’ll just have to wait and see if he uses Davros in the future (frankly, I don’t think Davros should’ve returned after Genesis of the Daleks, he’s a great character but the need to force him in to new stuff is not very creative). At least it seems like the change has come from a good place, and it at least gives Julian Bleach a good chance to show off more of his range. But I think, honestly, this should not really be the conversation we are having. I think the conversation we are having, should be about having more Disabled representation, good and evil.
How can Destination Skaro take place pre-disfigurement if RTD has made it 'ab-sol-ute-ly' clear that Davros just *isn't* disfigured anymore. He could have said, "We didn't want to put an evil wheelchair user on Children in Need, but I really wanted to use Davros, so we set the story at an earlier point in his life." No one would have had an issue with that, in fact it's an interesting idea. But instead, he said, "I say, this is how we see Davros, now. This is what he looks like... Davros used to look like that and he looks like this, now." He didn't use the word retcon, but it's clearly a retcon by definition.
If he doesn't like the connotations of the character, then fair enough. Don't retcon him, just don't use him! Again, no one is going to turn around and say, "How dare you not feature Davros in a story!"
Yeah, how he words this is just plain odd. But this isn't the classic series where Davros is going to turn up in every Dalek story on a consecutive basis.
The Witches Familiar idea is actually really cool. I'd love the idea of him regenerating once or twice so we could get a super Davros or something like that
Now that really is silly. As I said before Davros back story makes sense if you go down that road you are doing nothing but alienating your audience. Timeless Child anyone....you're also forgetting that it was the Doctor who tricked Davros in the end. If he thought he was going to create a super Davros then that means that he basically gave his power of regeneration to him and in turn created all these Dalek Masters? A bit like the Timeless Child crap having cybermen with the power to regenerate but surely they would just regenerate back into their flesh and blood bodies because the metal and plastic parts wouldn't regenerate. So basically because they were all human before the Master regenerated them they should have all regenerated back to their human selves but only once.....because they weren't Time Lords but the Cybermen that the Master took to Gallifrey. Its bad writing all round which as Bowelstrek points out just fucks up the entire history....like dumping on William Hartnell and I don't care what anyone else says, that is unforgivable to him and all the writers who kept up with the storyline and wrote there contributions around them, until along came that obese, gay pantomime loving idiot JNT came along with Bonnie Langford and S.McCoy and it was dead..I stopped watching then because he can't act worth tuppence. I was going to mention him ruining the Hobbit as well....but that was more Jackson and his partner in crime. Despite what people say about Lord of the Rings I thought it was shit even before the credits started with the Galadriel monologue..Left the cinema 3 times before I made it to the end of the Fellowship second time when they made Bree look like it was about 2 miles down the road and missing out some of the more important parts of the story...for instance if they hadn't even met Bombadil they wouldn't have the knife that helps Eowyn defeating the Witch-king. When you have the greatest fantasy tale of all time at your disposal to work from, your script is 80% written already. They aren't real writers they're just anything fir a quick buck conmen. Big green aliens farting only works once and even then if you've got the brain of a 2 Yr old. It was all just gimmickry because the whole story fell apart because all the little 2yr old minds were waiting on the next fart and didn't watch the story. A little bit further he casts someone else who he obviously fancied as this gay superhero and then the kids were missing the storyline again because most decent minded parents would be saying "I'm not letting my kids watch this gay filth" and dragging little whoever out the room. Dr.Who is just about the Doctor on his travels around the universe saving people from monsters and maniacs.
It doesn't need all that sex and other PC especially as now the stories are a lot shorter there isn't any room for that. Just look at the debacle of the Pondlife where despite the fact he isn't supposed to cross his own timeliness, he nips back and forth all the time. Statue of Liberty casually walking through New York and if the angels had that capability why would they need that trap? Oh and out of all the people in New York the angels manage to just get Rory. The whole River Song storyline was fine when she was just a mystery from somewhere in the Doctors life. But the conceited little Moffat thought could nick that story wholesale from the Time-Travellers Wife and go one better. If you're going to plagiarise something, don't do it while the inks still drying on the original. It's doomed now the Yanks have a hold of it,because it's just another money making Franchise for them RTD will slowly get pushed to the side and it'll have been invented in Yanksville and what would us dumb limey's know eh. Rings of Power another example of tramping over some of the best stories JRR Tolkien wrote and not listening to the fans,then having to lie about how great it was received by the public. I can guarantee you next thing they'll all be flying around on dragons completely missing the real malice and devillment that Melkor imbued them with. I could go on but I'd rather watch the Russian play of LotR again......see ya
@@bendream544 have you commented this for everyone who has made a similar comment to me, or are you not that mad?
(and you know I'm not reading that rant)
@@nanotyrannusisnotvalid4820 no its all my own vitriol I'm 56 years of age and don't need to plagiarise from a bloody RUclips comment. Why not read the rant? You might learn something
5:16 Now there's a thought! If naughty RTD wrote Blofeld, he'd no doubt combine him with Oddjob from _Goldfinger_ and call him... you guessed it... "Oddfeld" ;)
Mr Tardis is simply the goat when it comes to defending Doctor Who.
The fact that the Mark III Travel Machine seems to either be complete or near complete and apparently has a live Kaled mutant inside seems to imply that this takes place very close to Genesis of the Daleks. This would leave very little time for Davros to have his accident, recover, create his mobile life support chair, all before going back to work on the Daleks for the weapons test that Sarah Jane witnesses at the end of Episode 1. This, along with the way RTD worded certain parts of his statement, leads me to believe that this probably going to be a full-on retcon.
Completely misses the point that much of Davros' canonical motivation was precisely BECAUSE he was crippled in the Thal shelling of the Kaled dome. You take that away and make him just another "misunderstood villain" that we're apparently supposed to now feel sorry for, then what's the point?
And as for the "Bond Villain" trope ... where are you getting your information? Dr No had an artificial hand, and Blofeld was in a wheelchair (and also in four legacy and two recent movies). Goldfinger, Largo, Kananga, Scaramanga (is having a 3rd nipple a disability I wonder), Stromberg, Drax, Kristatos, Khan, Zorin, Koskov, Sanchez, Trevelian, Carver, King, Graves, Chiffre, Green, Silva, none of them disabled. Hell, they even brought Blofeld back as an able-bodied man because that was before he acquired his disability at the hands of Bond himself. What "trope" are you talking about???
People aren't pissed because this was a representation of Davros before he was crippled, they're pissed because it's a deliberate rewrite of canon (yet again), to pretend he was never disabled in the first place, because anyone disabled couldn't possibly be evil. It's yet another example of rewriting / destroying history to suit modern ideological viewpoints.
You're arguing semantics, this is exactly what Davies intended. Tell me, do you honestly think we will ever get another villain with a disability in Doctor Who? Or is the only "disability" required now is being a straight white man?
I'll simply say, I am disabled and do share one of Davros' impairments to an extent. I completely respect and support RTD's decision for the process of a Children in Need special.
However I don't think the solution to this trope is to go back and change well known visual effluents of an iconic character. It tends to rub people the wrong th way because our relationship with pop culture can be fickle. Yes there are cases so aggregious that you have to make overhauls and tweaks. In Davros' case though it's pretty far removed, visually, from real people with said disabilities. And his design read always indented to directly give him distinct visual links to his creations.
I think the best way to counter the harmful disability tropes of the past is to encourage the inclusion of more heroic, visably disabled chatters in our media. And you know what might be worth considering? If it's feasible (depends on how that chair prop works) how about a disabled actor to play Davros once Julian Bleach retires from the role?
The best way to deal with this situation is to have more disabled people in the show. Disabled actors get air time on a huge bbc show and that way you don't keep falling into the trope.
It's not a backlash it's a forelash!
End of the day its a Children in need skit designed to help raise money for charities. Going forward theres a universe of possibilities (literally) its Doctor Who (timey wimey). As for RTD's comments. He also said the Daleks wouldn't be used for a bit so in that context we'll be even less likely to see Davros anytime soon too. Last point i also find it funny that the some of the very people who call any disabled actor being cast as a "box tick" are outraged at seeing a disabled character prior to their disability. Yet if they cast an actor who uses a wheelchair as Davros or even if we saw him in a regular wheelchair not in the life support system they'd be up in arms saying "woke casting" similar to how they are with Yazmin finney, Jodie, Lenny rush, tosin cole, mandip gill,
So much of the modern world, not just this fandom, is about making a fast judgement - often limited by making a fast point without nuance - that your ego then makes you stick to after it becomes logical to do so. I worry as a human race, we are currently incapable of having this discussion
It makes me curious what the human race will become in the centuries of the future
I think the thing is, the internet’s new. There are people having this discussion - this video’s proof of that - but the internet prioritizes the loudest voices in a discussion
@@SamuelBlack84Either we have a future like Ready Player One, or Wall-E.
I am a disabled person, and - though I don't currently do so - I have used a wheelchair in the past, so I feel I can way in here. I never found Davros being depicted as a wheelchair user offensive, and - to be entirely honest - growing up as a disabled child I never even made the connection between his Dalek chair and the kind of wheelchair I used.
Yes 'the evil cripple' can be a hurtful stereotype, but to be entirely honest eliminating disability entirely is not the answer. I say, let us have disabled villains, let us have disabled heros, let us have disabled people who are somewhere in between. In any case there are far more hurtful stereotypes about disabled people than 'the evil cripple', for example 'the stupid, malingering cripple' as seen in the likes Andy in Little Britain or the Colonel in 'The Unicorn and the Wasp', speaking as a disabled person I'd far rather be associated with sinister villainy that fakers and chancers.
Plus, I will point out that Davros has tended to be well written, as disabled villains go. Compare him with John Lumic, as an example. Davros may be disabled, but - in terms of character motivation - he is evil because he is a space Nazi that wants to exterminate non-Kaleds, his creation of the Daleks has never - to me knowledge - been portrayed as the direct product of him being disabled, where as Lumic's whole deal is his wish to 'upgrade' his own disabled body, he creates the Cybermen as a way of healing himself. To me, at least, portraying disability as the cause of villainy, as in Lumic, or Max Capricorn, is far worse that having a villain who happens to be disabled, as with Davros. Davros is probably the least of Doctor Who's offenders in this field.
That said, now I've had time to think about it, I don't really mind either way, so far as Davros' redesign is concerned. At first I really hated it because it represented a massive change in a long established character, but after some reflection I don't care so much. So long as they explain the redesign in the show, rather than just retconning, and that explanation isn't 'Davros was faking this whole time', I'm fine with it, really. I don't really think it was necessary, as a disabled person I never found the character offensive, but it doesn't ruin things either.
I do actually really like the idea of Davros getting his original body back after The Witches Familiar with The Doctor giving some of his regeneration energy to heal him so if Davros were to return set after that story, that’s a way Russell could incorporate him. If that’s not to happen, I’m happy to see this version of Davros explored more before the events of his accident which caused him to be disabled and facially scarred.
People have said that I, Davros from BF have told stories like that but I’m talking on screen stories if Russell writes for him again.
Trying to suggest that someone's disability has been cured is completely outrageous. It's actually more outrageous than having a vilanous disabled character
That’s not what I was getting at. I was saying that since this is the lense that Russell sees Davros now and if he were to incorporate him a future stories set after The Witches Familiar, The Doctor’s regeneration energy he gave in that story might have done that for him.
I’m not giving any ableist views here if that’s what you’re thinking but I’m just thinking of how Russell would write Davros should he return. I’m genuinely sorry if my “outrageous” plot idea offended you and I’ll be willing to take back what I said. If I got your comment implications wrong, I apologise for that as well.
@@zolaya3699 I am disabled, and I really don't think that's offensive. Were it possible, I would quite like to be cured, live a normal life, y'know, go for a few long walks, live longer than 55, and I'm not going to begrudge a fictional character that.
I mean, if your gonna bring Davros back, at least change him somehow. His character has remained static since 1975.
@@zolaya3699I agree with this although scientifically we could say regeneration would "cure" some of his conditions. I would look into the pathological treatment of disability and "health" - the idea of health for a lot of people now means non disabled even if someone is born with conditions so they will never be truly "healthy" and then say not valued by society as they may not be able to fully work in a capitalist society or access different things.
In 1963, the Daleks were people damaged and mutated by nuclear radiation. They adapted by living as cyborgs inside Dalek casings. Technically, every Dalek is a disabled person. Russell T Davies is now in a tight corner. If the retcon of Davros is to be applied consistently, then the Daleks would have to become evil robots, following on from "Destiny of the Daleks", where Terry Nation had retconned the Daleks into robots to borrow a plot idea from Isaac Asimov, to pit them against the Movellan robot race. As an aside, the Daleks could be given legs, thus converting them into fudged, low rent Cybermen. The Cybermen are disabled people with augmented cybernetic appliances. The principle is exactly the same as with Davros, the Daleks and the Cybermen. A bird breaking a snail's shell with a stone is using a tool. Tool usage predates humanity. A bird is an advanced form of dinosaur. Davros' chair, the Tardis and a smartphone are all applied technology. If this principle is to be applied consistently, then we would have to live as less than animals who have used simple tools for millions of years. The HG Wells "War of the Worlds" Martians would be forced to relinquish their tripod war machines in the service of political correctness and the song thrush would starve through want of a stone to obtain vital food. It is vital to apply an idea consistently. Making Davros into a goose-stepping Twinkletoes can be seen as politically correct cherrypicking. No Davros chair. No Daleks. No Cybermen. If the Daleks had not appeared in 1963, NO DR WHO!!! The show would have been axed due to declining viewer ratings, a trend dramatically reversed by the success of the disabled Dalek creatures, who found a way of surviving by resourceful, technological adaptation to an altered and hostile environment. Davros was the architect of this. "NuHu" is a towering edifice of retrospective continuity. It will be forced to remain so in order to retrieve the vital cornerstones and pillars of the show. The relationship of living beings to technology and survival is part of life and the implications raised by the future possibilities of this is huge. This goes way beyond Dr Who. It is a vital ingredient of Science Fiction itself. More importantly still. Science Fact!!!
i do hope pre-accident Davros and the doctor do not meet face to face. i think that will remove any weight from their meeting in Genesis of the Daleks.
I didn't particularly vibe with the comedic style of Destination: Skaro, but I think it was absolutely the right decision for a Children in Need mini episode to avoid using utilising a version of Davros that was in a wheelchair. If they DO end up using Davros in the future then I hope RTD or whoever is involved approaches it with more nuance, but a charity event like this was never going to be the place to make use of a disabled villain. Honestly, I think I more agree with the idea that Davros should be retired now, we've had several great stories featuring him, but there are so many stories that can be told without him too
Outside of Genesis of the Daleks, I feel like most of the Davros stories are only good in spite of his inclusion, rather than because of it. There’s twice in all of Doctor Who when I think his return was legitimately a good idea, and those were Revelation of the Daleks and The Stolen Earth. In all the other ones, he feels like an obligation, and I don’t really feel like he needed to come back at all after Genesis.
@@samuelbarber6177 Yeah, I can definitely see that. A lot of stories with Davros work, but they feel like they could work without him too. His role in Remembrance was important too as he was the leader of the Imperial Dalek faction, but even there it would have been possible to find other ways to have opposing Dalek factions without using Davros. Honestly he's worked better for me in several audio stories which are fundamentally built around Davros instead of being Dalek stories
Here’s the thing,we never got an age for when Davros became wheelchair bound,we know that he was in a building that got shelled on Skaro,and we saw that he was a child and almost died during that one 12 episode,but we also know that aside from time and space the TARDIS can also travel between dimensions(I mean it’s in the name),so theoretically both of Davros’s stories could be correct,just for different versions of Davros
EDIT:Also wanna add that although I’m not physically disabled,I don’t think there would be such a kneejerk reaction to suggestion Davros is an evil cripple stereotype,if he actually wasn’t an evil cripple stereotype,seriously,it’s a huge self report to say he’s not but act in a manner as if your trying to cover the fact that he is
I'm sorry but I don't know how you look at what RTD said and think that depicting Davros the way he was in the child in need special is just a one off thing. HE IS IMPLYING THAT TO DEPICT DAVROS THE WAY HE HAS CLASSICALLY BEEN DEPICTED IS OFFENSIVE AND WE SHOULDN'T DO IT ANYMORE. I mean does it really sound you like it is a one and done thing? really? Also maybe a a badguy in a wheelchair is a trope. But what exactly should we do about it? Is the right reaction to say we should never ever every show someone in a wheel chair who is evil? The problem with that is that is not treating wheel chair bound people as real people. Real people can be good, real people can be evil, real people can be in a grey area. Why shouldn't we show wheel bound people as some being good, some being evil, some in a grey area, just like we would non-disabled people?
This character was created by Terry Nation and while I understand the Pre-Accident appearance. However to change the character outside of that takes away from showing the results of his horrifying experiments. I think RTD should come up with his own character instead of changing somebody else's work. There have been positive depictions of disabled characters like Ironside and Harry O, Dortman etc so I don't think every depiction is negative. Yes I understand your point about it being children in need so pre-accident was a good choice but permanent change of the character no. Your right interesting discussion
the davros character should NEVER have come back after GENESIS OF THE DALEKS in 1975 (1) he was EXTERMINATED by the daleks at the end and (2) the Michael Wisher performance was so good it has never been done better.
Especially when you realise, thanks to this channel, he pops in multiple Dalek stories on a consecutive basis in the classic series to the point that the character is bordering on overused.
The Dr met Davros as a boy in a hand mine field. The Dr knows that once Davros was able bodied. There is an unshown story that Davros was hit by a missile and badly damaged by it. There has to be a time when Davros was creating the Daleks but before he was blown up.
The Children in Need video fits that pre missile story and is really a joke about the Dalek's toilet plunger appendage.
I understood the context and the joke, what's the problem?
Isn’t the whole point of him being on life support why he created the daleks? He became obsessed with survival so much he seeked to lock his species in armoured shells. Coupled with his fascist ideas the daleks were an eventuality. The ultimate kill or be killed. Like why would davros start the travel machine project at all? The accident is the very drive that segwayed his research.
I see both sides of this debate and I agree (within reason) with both sides.
I may have not thought about it myself but Davros is a character that for better or worse does play into the Evil Disabled person trope.
I think it's admirable and decent of RTD to change this and say that going forward they won't play into those tropes and I believe there are two possibilities of addressing the changes.
1. They retire the chair version of Davros and only explore him pre Genesis. I do believe that on screen we haven't seen enough of pre Genesis and in this current climate of alt right tensions it would be a great way of addressing that and how the Kaled/Thal war mirrors tensions we are facing.
2. They go with the Witch's Familiar idea and due to regeneration energy (which lets be honest is a repair mechanic for writers) he has been restored to his former self pre Genesis.
I think those are the best options RTD and the producers have and I feel those options are the best to keep both fans and the wider audience happy.
I completely understand those who feel the change is too much but as an autistic individual who struggles with change, Doctor Who has allowed me to understand and process change as a concept.
The people screaming "woke" are not Whovians, any fan who is alt right or shares similar views to those who are alt right do not understand the show.
i can remember the bad old days when doctor who was cancelled.and all i had was the conventions.the fact is after all these years the fact we are all watching dr who feels my heart with glee.
I really wish they would resurrect Sapphire and Steel
A return to spooky and mysterious sci-fi
Listen to how Russ says TASTE that scare me 🦊
Simple Davros regenerated when The Doctor when gave the Daleks regeneration energy
If it's early Davros (who then time travels to the present perhaps) then it's not a problem.
We could compromise and say that that is just what really old Kalleds and Thals look like.
Where can I find the original interview with RTD?
You described Davros as a "victim of war". Yes, victims do get maimed, scarred and crippled. And sometimes those wounds can fester and seethe and manifest into evil. So I do not see "trope" so much as underlying resentment, hurt and loss. It empowers the villain's hatred and visually embodies that torment and bitterness. the dichotomy of supreme power coupled with helpless fragility.
And so what about Ironside, Matt Murdock, Professor Xavier, Scotty McDowell, Clint Barton etc?
i dont really understand the whole "evil cripple" trope, i mean if theres just as many able bodied villains (there are) doesnt that just make it a coincidence and not a trope?
it seems to be a case of people pulling a pattern because they want to see one
It’s more just the overall lack of representation. There’s only really a handful of any wheelchair-user representation (heck, the two major ones I can name are Davros and Professor X). I think the conversation should probably be more around just having more wheelchair user representation entirely, and the major problem is that a large chunk of what it is there is villainous in nature. The same as people with facial disfigurements like eye patches and scars. When the vast majority of characters with those qualities are evil, then it does shape people’s perceptions.
The point is that disabled characters have historically tended to be disproportionately villains or just generally sinister. There may be more able bodied villains, but if you look at the number of physically disabled characters in this sort of fiction a high percentage have been villains. Somebody disputed this point with me recently arguing that there was a heroic character in a wheelchair in Dalek Invasion of Earth - and he was right, but that was one heroic character in a wheelchair in one story in 1965 , compared to multiple appearences by Davros and several other villains who appear to be in wheelchairs.
So my take on this is that it is fine that there was a point before Geneis when Davros hadn't yet had his accident and therefore this scene was still possible and fits in fine (and thus not a retcon). This shows that Davros was evil before he became wheelchair bound and thus helps the narrative that it is the person that was evil all along and that it was only later that he became wheelchair bound. I would however not really support a later Davros (after Genesis) that wasn't in the chair as it breaks continuity.
RTD is on record as saying he wrote large chunks of episodes credited to other writers and you can hear it. The only writer he didn't rework was Steven Moffat.
And Chibnall in Series 3, apparently.
I don't believe him, that just seems far too ridiculous.
For me, though the trope is immensely problematic, I think there have been more nuanced examples where it is used no simply to dehumanize, but rather the opposite. Take Darth Vader or Davros, their injuries and disabilities are leveraged just as much to generate sympathy and or pity for the characters as to visually indicate their supposed villainy. However, that leveraging is just as problematic. In the end, Davros was an injured/disabled character. He was not evil because of these visual/physical traits, he was simply driven to survive at any and all costs, and for Davros, as with Vader, this entailed a life support unit. However, as you are keen to note, Davies was wise to change the depiction of Davros without breaking canon via a prequel to his disfigurement. I think the only major issue would have been if he had elected to change the character/canon. However, he is the showrunner and it's his story to tell again. No sense in the knee jerk reaction either way, but you are absolutely right, this is a fascinating and nuanced conversation. Honestly, Davies recognizing the optics of depicting an evil, disabled character in the context of Children in Need and taking steps to avoid the comparison was a wise move.
Arcturus isn't disabled. He is an alien visiting a planet with a different atmosphere. If he is disabled Buzz Aldrin was when he went to the moon. The Face of Bo was practically the same character. Every single Dalek is in the same boat as Davros. Every Cyberman is an amputee. Which villains are you allowed to show? Do Sontarans "other" short bald people? The Master with his mental health issues and tinnitus must also be problematic. Where does removing images end until we do the right thing and show mentally ill or physically disabled or injured people well... Oh yeah the show was already doing that... See Under the Lake, Vincent and the Doctor, Flux etc for details.
Yeah I think what would solve a lot of these problems is if they just say the Children in Need special was pre-accident Davros. Although I'm fine for them to say the regeneration energy has brought Davros back to his old self if they do that. One of the old jokes about Davros was that there was less and less of him for each appearance. To be fair in the Revelation of the Daleks story it turned out he wasn't really 'just a head', but we did see Davros say he had to remove his own skin and flesh to create new Daleks in Season 4, so if you were Davros and losing body parts over time I can see why you'd want to find a way to get your old body back.
Nobody complained when Davros as a kid was shown?
You keep saying people are doing this and people are doing that but this is all down to one person. One person who chose to put a classically depicted injured character in a telephon for the benefit of (amongst other people) disabled children, chose to show them before their injury and chose to make a pronouncement about the future of that character. A character he did not create. A character that is a show icon and a popular choice for disabled cosplaying fans. He did this without consultation with those fans. He just did it. And as you say presented as being self congratulatory. Despite being the guy who wrote John Lumic and the Master the way he did. There are the usual suspects complaining about wokery etc and the tabloids are quoting Ian Levine's words in sensational terms and I think Russell meant well but it is so clumsily done. Those words shouldn't have been said and certainly shouldn't have been broadcast then and there. If he wanted to start a conversation he has had years before RTD2 to start it in. He has had years before the 60th to start it in. He has had years before a comedy skit in a telephon for the benefit of children to start that in. But it's not a conversation.
It is kind of funny that they dressed and made Julian Bleach up like this, since it makes it seem like Davros chose Nyder from Genesis Of The Daleks because he looked like him.
7:00 except that is a paraphrase of what RTD said in the clip. He and the production team had an issue with Davros being a wheelchair user and evil so they removed his disability from his character.
That is very much cancelling his disability in fear that it will cause offense. I get the trope exists and I agree that we have to be careful to avoid leaning into it too heavilly but Davros' disabilty is an integral part of his character. Arguably it's more of a part of his character than Davros being evil, which is how we view him because he sticks by the Daleks after they have brcome evil muderous machines. (Again arguably because of the doctor's actions in genesis of the Daleks).
Prior to that he could have been just a very clever scientist who created a powerful weapon to help his side during the Skaro civil war.
No-one would say that those behind the Manhaten project were inherently evil for their part in creating the Atomic Bomb although what their genius ultimately created was.
Back to Doctor Who itself though, it hasn't really leant into this trope to much anyway. Yes you have Davros, John Lumic and Max Capricorn who plan evil acts and are disabled. But none of those are evil because they are disabled.
At the same time we have characters like Banacafalata, Lazloo (from the Daleks in Manhatten two parter) and the Face of Boe who are disabled/disfigured and also very noble, good characters.
There are also many further villans who are not disabled or disfigured in any way. Such as Luke Rattigan, the radica brotherl in Demons of the Punjab, Mr Daeagalus (Daleks in Manhatten) and The Master. Even arguably Captain Jack when he first appears or River Song in her early (from her perspective) days!! All villans who are not disabled.
The CiN skit works well as a prelude to Genesis of the Daleks but RTD's comments as you show them are ill-advised and arguably rather narrow-minded or foolish.
I do admit that I am really sad amd disappoint about the Davros decision, but I do understand and sympathize with RTD's argument, and I can live with it. I know that this may sound offensive, so I apologize in advance, but I really do think that there are multiple factors involved and need to be defined in this broad topic as well: Was the villain born disabled? Was the villain become evil before or after? Did he gain the injurties as a side-effect of his actions (Dr. No) Was he elderly? (I’m not sure if this counts but the extend of the injuries). I think it needs to be said, in the tv tropes it was Ozwell E Spencer, I think he used a wheelchair because he was elderly and near the end of his life. He was evil megalomaniac before then, because he was founded the umbrella company and had no qualms about assassinating his fellow colleagues. Davros (and Palpatine) shares the same negative trope in a way to the unfair ugly elderly (like a crone) witch-like trope too.
I am concerned about what if it was an able-bodied villain who willingly wanted to become gradually cybernetic in the first place. Or something like a villain being an inch from death and being revived as a cyborg (like “Taurus Bulba” from Darkwing Duck). And also how disability is handled in that media?
I think The Geek Council hit the nail on the head with the suggestion of including more GOOD characters with disabilities along with the bad. I really do believe that this topic needs to be clearly defined. I don't think that people should be vilified for being Davros fans, and that people shouldn't vilify people on the other side of this, especially the youtuber guy which is unfair.
If I didn't hear that interview I wouldn't even think about the change to Davros, since it makes sense in the story. And if Davros came back in a future story with like a reconstructed perfect body or something I would probably just be like "Oh, cool." because that would be like a new angle for Davros narratively. But with that interview... man, it just rubs me the wrong way. The self grandizing is the main thing for sure, but then saying that this is how they see him going forward is just gonna make me think about that damn interview any time Davros appears like this going forward.
It doesn't ruin the short or Davros for me or anything, and I do agree especially for Children in Need this was the right call. But man... they should've really edited down or redone that interview IMO.
Sounded to me more like RTD was on the defensive, which is what happens when you have certain segments of the fandom saying he’s “woke” or he’s “preaching The Message”.
I wonder what other so-called 'progressive' philosophy will replace woke in the future?
In another fifty years or a century it will be forgotten and something else will take centre stage
the captain hook of the once upon a time tv series was actually a good guy, getting attacked by villains and peter pan who was an evil entity kidnapping children.
Uoat was so awsome at remixing and twisting classic characters
I just wish that Davros never appeared again after Genesis of the Daleks.
It is a complex conversation but one of the people not having a complex conversation about it is Russell.
Has he ever said anything about his own heavy use of the trope by the way?
Honestly until I saw people reacting over this, I thought this was just before the bombing in the audio story IDavros. What I find really funny though is people saying Davros is just a Nazi now, he’s always been a space Nazi? The most upsetting thing to me, is that this might retcon IDavros. If they have a story about Davros well being the scientist he is simply rebuilds himself that’s fine.
Personally it comes across to me that anything can fit into the trope in the course of a story, look at superior spider man, is doc ock the “villainous cripple” despite the fact that for the majority of his appearances he’s completely abled. It’s a very tricky situation and I believe entirely comes down to opinions on a person to person basis
which media is this? I don't follow all of the comics and spin off media, but i get his arms in spiderman raimi films are transport but also take over his mind and he can't live without them anymore
@@Char10tti3 main 616 comics continuity
"He wasn't born without legs" is someone gonna mention child Davros in series 10? (Or was it 11?)
I don't hate anyone. I dislike to various degrees of intensity what some people do. This whole issue was badly managed. Yes it generated publicity but at a time when we should be excited about the future we have this unnecessary dump on the past. I'm a registered disabled person. Like all people I work at being as good a person I can be. I can screw up. The notion that an injured person is immune to evil acts once they become scarred or require technological assistance is insulting. The solution to poor representation is more representation. Not removing a show icon that chair users cosplay as for fun and to raise money. And was a comedy skit the vector for this message? If Davros had turned up without his chair and no speech had been delivered it would have been treated as a fun curio. By making a political statement it's upset people when we really didn't need it.
I feel like the problem's a lack of disabled protagonists etc
(To offset the evil villains etc)
I keep pointing out that this is Davros BEFORE the accident. Before the disfigurement happened. The Children in Need special was a sketch occurring well before "Genesis of the Daleks." If you recall "The Magician's Apprentice," a young boy walking around in a handmine field is portrayed as Davros.
No. Anakin Skywalker ended up in his life support system with cyberntic upgrades because he was swayed into the dark side by Palpatine and challenged Obi Wan to a duel near a lava river and Obi Wan cut his limbs off due to Anakin;s arrogance and overconfidence and he got burned by the lava and that is how he ended up the way he did.
Trying to think of good or non evil characters who are disabled. Guts, Robocop, Nemo...I'm sure there's more but i cant really think of any and i guess thats were the problem lies. Tbh tho Davros should've been done with after his death in Genesis.
breaks the fourth wall "stef means jews" im on the floor
I always considered that Davros developing his chair was part of what lead to him developing the Daleks
Just a thought…
Isnt the whole point of the Daleks that they (the Daleks themselves) are augmentations constructed by Davros for the purpose of creating the perfect (Nazi) soldier? Isn’t the Genesis of the Daleks lore that the creatures are contained and protected within the Dalek/suit of armour-which is analogous to a support or assistive device like as a wheelchair ?
This isn’t meant as an argument for or against the creative decision regarding Davros. I don’t know how I feel about it, honestly, and regardless of what I do end up feeling, it isn’t likely to contain anger, rage, fury, self righteous indignation, or any government petitions (your comment about that re perspective was very appreciated, by the way!). I get so frustrated with all the “dOcToR wHo SuCkS iTs GoNe aLl WOOOOOKE!!!!1! bollocks that it’s just nice to have someone use the phrase “nuanced conversation” with respect to DW and have it not be a complaint. * cough * BOWLSTREKetal. * * cough *
I, Davros is all free on Spotify last time I checked!!
As a 35 year fan, who remembers when Colin Baker and John Nathan-Turner were the most evil people around, and there was no Doctor after Sylvester .... I have NO problem with Davros not being in a wheelchair. I'm interested in the character's early history, which has always been a story looking to be told. Does he look like a nazi knockoff? Yeah, but his short scene was cool. My problem is with RTD. 1. he said it was a wheelchair, when its not. He should know its a life support system. Its like Christopher Pike. NOT A WHEELCHAIR. So, he's gaslighting all of us telling its something that its NEVER BEEN. Why? .... 2. Well, to push an agenda and dump on fans that don't exist. Nobody ever has thought Davros was in a wheelchair cause he was evil or folks in wheelchairs are evil or something. Nobody ever. He talked about the long history of evil wheelchair folks, but didn't give any. Folks supporting him point out Blofeld (sp?) in James Bond. I've read all the Ian novels, hunting all of them up to get the early editions. He walks. In his debut in the movies - having seen all of them - he walks. He didn't get into a wheelchair until AFTER Bond left him for dead. Its a perfect character arc that Bond didn't always have in the movies. So, who else is evil due to being in a wheelchair or is in a wheelchair cause he's evil in fantasy? Can't think of anyone in RTD's long history, so he's on an agenda bender for a non-existent problem that he feels required to fix. Fixing a fake problem is a sign of mental illness, its called delusional. 3. Telling fans they have problems with Davros, when they never have. I told my gf this - who is NOT a fan - and her response: all the Doctor Who fans I know are queer super liberal folks, activists, and I can't imagine a single one of them thinking this. His comment made no sense. I mentioned Bond to her (her brother was a huge fan), and she even said the wheelchair was character development. So, all that being said. If Davros was reinvented as a younger man, not deformed - cool! But, for RTD to come out with his blathering was upsetting. He caused MORE problems by opening his mouth, gaslighting and telling fans off. That's my HONEST opinion. Sometimes just do something, and leave out the explanation.
Oh come of it... RTD may not have said the words but he certainly implied that disabled people are seen as evil. That was the very reason he used for making the change. Sorry, it is YOU who is building the strawman by saying he never actually said the words. So yes, let's please have an HONEST conversation... including from you.
Ok, then let's go back to context in order to make a nuanced conversation. What Russell said was and I quote: "Time and society and culture and taste has moved on and there's a problem with Davros being a wheelchair user who is evil and I had problems with that. And the production team had problems with that - Associating disability with evil. And trust me, there's a very long tradition of this. I'm not blaming people in the past at all but the world changes, and when the world changes, Doctor Who has to change as well."
Now, let's get straight to the facts of this story.
What Russell is saying is that social reality has changed and that there's a clear link between evil characters and disability in entertainment, so Doctor Who has to change that perspective. In practice, it's not a strawman argument if I say he's retiring the look (as he told us: "these are our lenses"). Sure, I believe people can get behind that whole message of eliminating the trope but, if you think a little bit closer about what this entails, you can deduce that this creative choice is to remove the stigma behind this trope (a trope nobody associates to Davros because one thing does not equate the other). It's not straw-manning, it's basic reasoning (and I'm not adding the problems with the special itself in regards to presentation and retconning certain elements of Terry Nation's story recklessly, I'm just addressing the elephant in the room).
And here's more: RTD also says that "we're getting to the front of the conversation", but we're not. What RTD is doing with this is deflecting the stereotype by making a new one, not actually fixing it. It doesn't take the human factor of those represented into consideration, the good and the bad. It's not a strawman argument when the same has been happening with works of fiction in recent years... being edited and re-edited according to personal sensibilities to the point where you lose the historical context of the stories. I'm sorry, but when personal sensibilities get ahead of historical and human context, it's just as harmful as the problem he's trying to remove. At some point, there will be no more human subjectivity and no more villains in stories and almost everything will become offensive by association. Most people live with those tropes because they don't define us, choices do, and they know that. I hope this helps understand why this creative decision is still a wrong move.
The Fact Is (while they are evil characters) it can be very powerful to see a powerful character with a disability. That being Disabled doesn't always make you weak, that you can rise above it to be just as strong or even stronger then the able-bodied.
We need more Professor Xs.
From that infamous interview on DWM about his reasons behind the regenerated clothes, this take demonstrate and confirm further what I've been saying about him since last year: Davies strongly needs a crash course in Corporate Communication, as soon as possible.
So many rookie mistakes from his part in terms of PR.
Why does he need that? He's asserting that he's attempting to deviate from a common trope within television and film. That being disabled or disfigured individuals being prone or inclined to immorality.
I respect the awareness, however I believe Davros is essentially ill choice to rehabilitate. His disability not being merely set dressing in greater lore.
@@AshanBhatoa Because communication is not merely about delivering a message: the task of a communicator is also about crafting what they want to convey by predicting exactly how their interlocutor might react before the publication of such a message, in order to avoid misunderstandings that could lead to an image damage.
If your interlocutor misinterprets your delivery, then you made a terrible job in communicating it.
And that's exactly what happened with his take on Davros and his take on the Doctor's regenerated clothes.
Without mentioning that those details revealed by Davies were part of what in the field is called organizational communication, that is meant to be received exclusively by insiders, not customers (whom are addressed with institutional communication and marketing communication).
The internal decision-making processes of a company are left out from customers hands for a specific reason, the same one Davies ended up causing.
Summarizing, what Davies ended up delivering with the regenerated clothes take was delivered as patronizing, not as a compromise situation (as he intended to be understood) but as a surrender to the media establishment.
What Davies ended up delivering with the wheelchair Davros take is also patronizing and not what he wanted to state: it didn't pass as a take of consciousness about the trope, but an imposition of some sort.
Those are mistakes a rookie in his first days of working in communication field makes; that's why I insist in saying Davies needs a crash course in Corporate Communication: because he is evidently incapable of crafting his takes in order to not be misunderstood.
People saying disabled people can be good or evil are ignoring the fact that the trope comes from the fact that up until recently disabled people have been inherently seen as either a lesser being or evil usually due to being rightfully pissed off for being seen as lesser being. Making the choice to avoid a trope that comes from such an evil place is an ethically good thing to do that doesn't actually hurt anything especially in a show that deals with time travel and things changing. If you can retcon The Doctor's having committed a double genocide(and as a byproduct make many episodes in 9/10s run make no sense), then you can retcon a bad trope away.
I think Russel should have just said simply: "This is Children in Need, we don't need to show a villain in a wheelchair, so we show him before his accident to get around that and it works for the joke we wanted to make about the Dalek arm." He can talk about the trope and not feeding into it, which is wonderful, but I think he invited upset by implying it would be this way from now on. The NotFans of DW love to hate-watch for anything they can try to destroy the show for, and this was an easy dig they could make by just removing context, as they always do. The Daleks of antifandom are always removing context, it is what gets them clicks and money and they won't stop until we stop feeding their BS.
All of that said, it is almost lore-breaking that Davros has never repaired himself to full mobility. I mean I am constantly being asked by the show to believe the Daleks have the capability of nearly destroying the Time Lords, could make all sorts of duplicates with eyestalks in their heads to act as Dalek agents, but they could never give Davros a new body? Really? Yeah, I know we all love the iconic nature of the character, but at some point the realism is broken by not doing the obvious. For outside of WHO example, I loved Barbara Gordon as Oracle, the computer genius helping Batman and all the other members of his extended network of bat-family members, but with all the super science in DC it was becoming ridiculous that nobody could restore her legs, so eventually DC had her recover her mobility. If Davros is given a working body again, it could easily be explained, either by the Regeneration energy the Doctor passed on, as you mentioned, or via Davros actually finally deciding to use all the science at his command to address the issue.
Doctor Who anime full 12 years ago