Let's settle this Davros debate once and for all
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- Опубликовано: 17 мар 2024
- There has been a lot of controversy recently surrounding Davros, and his future in Doctor Who - let's settle this once and for all.
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I think that the backlash is less to do with the change itself, and more to do with the fact that people disagree with why the change was made in the first place
I understand that, however, I do largely agree with RTD's decision and motivation, disability representation in Doctor Who's history has been poor and if he wants to depict Davros differently in future stories to make his stance on representation in his new era clear, that's his prerogative as showrunner. Stranger changes have happened in Doctor Who, and for far stranger reasons. I'm more concerned about whether this change makes sense in terms of the character itself, which it does due to the events of The Witch's Familiar - namely, the fact that Davros' chair was used against him, and the fact that his injuries will presumably begin to heal after he absorbed so much regeneration energy
@@dalekbumpstrue but if you look deeper it makes sense on why each villain was evil even though they were disabled, Max Capricorn was voted out of his company for being a cyborg and he wanted revenge, lumic was sick and wanted to preserve himself and humanity ( albeit in his own twisted way ) and davros was evil before his accident
As far as I'm concerned the only fixed point in time in Doctor Who is that Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without one of Edith's Thompson plum puddings
😂Brilliant, love Chimes
All I'll say is this, Julian Bleach still nailed the role of Davros without the chair and makeup. His performance still left a chill down my spine and I didn't mind the fact that Davros wasn't in his chair in the Children in Need Special, at all
Fr, he reminds me of the food taster from ratatouille
@@ZOMBiFOX13Lmao I can't lie Davros does look a bit like him! 🤣
Seeing him without the mask & even the chair makes me appreciate his performance & casting as the character more
@@BH-98 Agreed
@@BH-98 100%. He was absolutely stunning there.
The flood music in the background
God imagine a flood infected dalek that would be terrifying
To be honest, the great irony is that Remembrance of the Daleks had already moved the discussion on and further away from potential problematic implications, in a far better way.
It was RTD himself that dragged the whole thing back to being "obviously a guy in a wheelchair."
I do actually like the idea of Davros being healed after the events of Witch's Familiar.
Why? Davros would be just another generic Nazi bad guy and erasing Terry Nation's creation.
@@EthanKnight97Exactly!
I'd say that third arguement is the strongest, but only because I've listened to I, Davros which is very good and is canon but it's Big Finish of course so it's flexible.
But it bugs me a little, just a tiny bit that Genesis seems to imply the travel machine didn't come around until after Davros' accident
what if Davros re-created the travel machine after the accident. so far we know that something exploded and only Davros barely survived.
Is it possible to indicate that the Time war rewrote history so that the travel machine is invented early
I mean according to big finish the ogrens didn't exist until the time war The daleks retconed them it
they literally joke about the timelines and canon changing in the skit, its hilarious how many people are throwing a sook over something that really isnt a big deal
You get it.
I’ve come up with a theory that in a future Davros story The Daleks Creator could conjure up a plot similar to Revelation of The Daleks where he somehow becomes a worshipped individual on another planet, runs the place by hologram that resembles his pre-accident form then reveals his true form when The Doctor uncovers his scheme. Similar to Palpatine’s appearance in the final episodes of Star Wars Rebels.
That would have been a really interesting thing to feature in Revelation of the Daleks, and honestly I'm baffled as to why Davros didn't do that when he was the Great Healer. He has a facsimile Davros 'thing' created for him as a disguise, which he uses to communicate with his followers off-world (apparently using open channels), so why does he design this thing to look exactly like him? He was trying to hide his identity, and he could have made the head in the tank look like anyone. From a production standpoint, it's also a bit of a mis-step, as it illustrates how the Davros mask does basically look like rubber - especially the scene when it melts. Revelation is a great story but there are more than a few bizarre elements to it that have always confused me, this is one of them
Perhaps Russell T. Davis or another writer on the team might do this idea in a future story. If I knew how to get in contact with RTD I'd suggest it to him.
Why is it that the channel dedicated to the darkest, most destructive and malevolent force in Doctor Who’s expansive list of dark, destructive and malevolent forces makes the most sense in the sea of Doctor Who RUclips content? 😄
This is a great video, the sort of thing that people can be pointed to - great stuff, thanks for making it
Last time we saw Davros he was being pumped full of regeneration energy, him being out of a chair would make perfect sense to me
Agreed, if anything seeing Davros still in his chair next time we see him would be strange - regeneration energy has been shown in the past to heal injuries, and Davros is injured, so putting 2 and 2 together it makes sense that he wouldn't need his chair anymore
Well if they do go that route I want them to start with him in the chair and show him getting out of it
It would be a cool moment@@dalekbumps
Funny thing is, slap some spectacles on him and he'd look a lot like Nyder as well.
Like a hybrid
Since their all about generic purity, that makes sense!
I still don’t entirely agree with RTD’s reasoning for his design change, but I quite like the idea of Davros getting healed by the regeneration energy.
In the end, it’s still the same Davros.
I mean I wouldn’t mind Davros coming back out of his chair as long as we get say a reference to it like maybe his first scene on a Dalek battleship is him on a throne like the Dalek battle computer
Honestly, I'd like to see the regeneration energy from 12 affect Davros in an unpredictable, even dangerous way, maybe causing him to grow into a large mass of flesh and cybernetics, wired into a computer or maybe revert to a more animalistic being, even accelerate him into a more Dalek-like creature, giving him new life a freedom.
Sounds like the Toymaker started scrambling the canon, I'm fine with these changes so long as they're consistently inconsistent, it'll be fun
That line is the most horrendous example of explaining something that doesn't need to be explained ever
How the hell are you gonna make a Jigsaw puzzle out of the Doctor's history when it's been a Jigsaw puzzle since the start there are 3 Atlantis is and like five different Disappearances of the crew of the merry celeste
I think if Davros is depicted walking again, it should be in an episode akin to Daleks in Manhattan and Evolution of the Daleks, showing the culmination of Davros' experiments.
Does davaros have a built in toilet in his chair or does he not need to go to the toilet since his bottom half is gone?
He dosent need to…the chair does everything
To further my earlier point, I don't think even the Daleks themselves care much about their origin. They're not a terribly introspective species and to me, their origin only seems to matter to them as a marker to ascertain the purity of the Dalek genome and to weed out impure or mutated sects of the Daleks, like the Imperial Daleks and Martez's Daleks in Blood of the Daleks. Their historical mistreatment of Davros indicates they don't care who created them, only that they were created to take up their genocidal crusade against the rest of the universe and establish themselves as the supreme beings.
I kinda like the idea of a "healed" Davros, if played right, it could actually give the Daleks some much-needed progression. Here's what I'd do:
Davros knows his creations are flawed, so he creates a "final" version that makes them less dependent on hate and purity and gives them critical thought. Perhaps the "Final Dalek Empire" prove their strength by eradicating the bronze empire, ending the Time War arc for good. (Plus they can finally get a redesign!)
But I feel like after that, it might be time to put Davros to rest for good. He's cool, but the fact that he's had 4 "final" deaths now is kinda annoying. (Who does he think he is? The Master?) I'd like to see the Daleks without him still being alive.
Seeing pre wheelchair Davros has made me wonder what if the Kelads took the Dalek's place in the timeline. Like imagine a Galactic Kelad Empire with the obsession with genetic purity slowly spreading galaxies.
The galactic empire from star wars but more racist
As a disabled person, Davros never offended me; ideology aside, I thought he was cool as a kid and, looking at him as an adult, I see he’s always been depicted as intelligent, respected among his peers *and* The Doctor, but the problem with Davros (for me) has been characterisation based, not appearance.
Hearing your description of a ‘What If’ story, where Davros has legs in one way or another, makes me more intrigued for a potential development but I do think his iconography is an important part of his character, and if you want to view Davros through a disabled lens then that should be an element explored with the character himself rather than an external factor, separate from what’s been seen on screen.
I know it may sound like I’m mad, and I was when the Unleashed episode initially aired, but I’m really not; changes happens all the time in Doctor Who, from show runner to show runner, and this is minor in comparison to other choices made over the years - I would like to see Davros in the chair again, with a more nuanced characterisation, but if this is Davros moving forward then I hope the writing team take advantage of that to tell new, intriguing, and fundamentally different stories with the character.
If he does change his chair, maybe give him robot legs
_Wrong Trousers of the Daleks_
@@PerovNigmathis is an absolutely god-tier comment 🙏
When I first heard that RTD’s decision to change Davros’ look was based on disability representation, I thought it was stupid. But when I took the time to actually hear RTD out on the subject and read what he had to say, I completely changed my mind. Yes, Davros’s original look is iconic and as a fan it’s a shame to see it go, but when I think of disabled kids (or even disabled fans in general) watching the show and seeing that the only character like them is a psychotic monster whose disfigurement is so often tied to his villainy, RTD’s reasoning becomes a lot more sound. The kinds of characters we choose to depict DOES matter and does have an influence, especially for a show so predicated on depictions of kindness and heroism. I do hope that when we see him next his “healing” will be acknowledged, but either way I’ve very much come around to the change. To any other fans who had the same reactionary response of “WTF,” I urge you to think a bit harder about the situation.
I like Davros, but I thought there really wasn't much you could do with him left, so when this skit showed up, it was such a pleasant surprise to see him back. I would be captivated by a story that showed Davros deal with leaving his Life Support system behind.
also even if RTD made Davros' redesign permanent, a different show runner can revert it
I hear that Transformers DS soundtrack in the background, you can't hide that from me
I’ve also heard that theory about Davros being healed or partially healed by The Doctors regeneration energy and I think that would be great way to get around it as it carry’s on from what Moffat did
I never considered the fact that "Davros" was the narrator of his origins... and "I, Davros" does really favor showing how he was inspired to create every element of the Daleks. The idea that he's unreliable makes me like that story even more.
Still, I do prefer the origin of the name "Dalek" presented in that story. (It comes from a Dal phrase meaning, "Men Will be Gods.")
This is all well and good but won't his legs be vulnerable without his Dalek Bumps?
The reason having characters Like Davros or Lumic in a chair works is due to the fact it shows a sheer determination. In spite of the fact that their bodies are failing them, they are willing to fight for their goals and ambitions to the utter end. It showcases that even without their physical strength they are still intelligent and are just as if not more a threat to the protagonists. It's an effective use of subverting the audience expectations. Where you might find a weak old man, you find one of the most dangerous foes the Doctor has ever faced. it may be a common trope, but it is effective because it creates an interesting character. It's a very close-minded way of thinking to suggest that people who are disabled shouldn't be villain's. Justifying inaccuracies due to accidents when writing is ok, people make mistakes and there will be discrepancies in a long running series but when you are doing it to make a take a stance on an "issue" very little people find a problem with it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth.
TL;DR: People who have disabilities can make for great villains, and changes to the canon made by "activists" isn't making said canon any better.
Id love to see the davros we got from children in need. Would change the dynamic of certain scenes. Imagine a davros that can walk around the room when doing a speech and even potentially get physical with the doctor similar the master.
I will say this, the leader of the resistance in The Dalek Invasion of Earth was in a wheelchair and helped to save humanity, and that was long before Davros was in the show. So I doubt that they were trying to associate disabilities with evil.
He didn't really help though, did he? He planned an attack on a Dalek ship that got everyone in the resistance killed, then tried to use his home-made bomb against a Dalek - which fails miserably - and he is then killed himself
@@dalekbumps whilst his bombs do fail rather spectacularly, his bravery was acknowledged by Barbara in the story when she tells Jenny that he sacrificed himself for them both. And we must remember, he is just a guy in destroyed London trying to fight intergalactic aliens, I’m not sure anyone would have had much luck 😅.
I loved the way you concluded the video
Portraying people with disabilities as evil has been a long standing issue within media for hundreds of years I also agree for CIN this type of portrayal of Davros was a genius move to still have the character without that issue especially because it’s for children.
However, if RTD wants to take the moral high ground on a disabled character from over 40 decades ago he needs to take accountability for his portrayal of disabled people during his tenure of 1-4 instead of pointing fingers taking a moral high ground. He should also be taking accountability for his actions which were much more recent with better understanding of people of disabilities compared to when Genesis came out.
I love the recent positive disability representation RTD has started already in the specials including the wheelchair ramp for the TARDIS and something as simple as “don’t make me the problem” when it came to an issue with stairs. So hopefully more to come where it feels natural to the story and not to come across as winning points which is a case often in new media to the point where is actually dehumanises people with disabilities even more making them an object of of repression politics rather than letting people with disabilities just exist within the story just like people with disabilities exist in everyday life without.
If Davros were to come back I’m really hoping for a prequel to Genesis and that be it for the character if they were to rewrite the character to have them out of the chair then I say just retire the character it would do more harm than good because it also sends a message that people who are disabled can’t be bad people which also is a wrong way to perceive people with disabilities as it encourages the thought that they are inherently different to able bodied people. Everyone can be good or bad.
Damn didn’t realise I wrote a damn essay lmaoo
@@keenansudworth9969 don't worry, I agree that RTD should definitely take accountability for the representation of disabled characters in his previous era
Hopefully we'll find out soon what the Skaro is going on!
RTD has said no Daleks but we know he lies.
See i still find this interesting because one of the people working on the show when they first joined a couple of years back said there looking forward to working on a new design. Also I swear I saw something that all but confirmed there return in the finale for the next series
To be fare when it comes to trying to trying to design the Dalek's timeline and seeing where each event fits in. Even in my own fan series idea that I'm thinking of, I don't state when exactly it is other than it takes place in what I have come to call the Crusader era. But I don't actually say what date this era is other than it's post Time-war, and the only reason I did that was because I thought of a ranking structure for the Daleks and to separate them from the Bronze Daleks.
You also have to consider that even if I do get this thing produced which will be the first thing I'll try and do after leaving University. With Doctor who and an episode of Doctor who which features that Daleks could be set at the same time as when the Crusader era takes place. Yet it uses the bronze Daleks instead of the Crusader Daleks. Then you will have to trying and think of an idea of why if it's the Crusader era the Dalek Empire which in the context of this fan spin-off ditched the Time-war casings for a new type. Yet in the main series we see the older casing.
"The shows history of disabilties being associated with vilians is unfortunate " processes to show rtd villians.
Thinking about it maybe rtd is trying to over correct his mistakes lol.
(John lumic was honestly acceptable as his unfortunately unnamed ailment is the primary motivator for his actions and theirs story telling advantages to have that vissualised)
The sooner Doctor Who fans just consider everything canon, all at the same time, regardless of inconsistencies, will be the day I feel more at ease interacting with the fans. It's crazy how much importance people place on canon consistency when the show itself does not. The book Unnatural History talks about the hundreds and hundreds of origins the Doctor has and says "it doesn't really matter" and that is absolutely the best way to take it. Yes, The Haunting of Villa Diodati is canon. Yes, Mary is also the Eighth Doctor's companion. I don't even need to rationalise it, it's just more fun taking the stories as they are then freaking out over how one isn't canon and doesn't matter any more. Just enjoy the ride, jeez.
exactly!
The four beats were used by the Master to signal the Doctor in Series 12.
true but it wasn't mentioned when the Simm incarnation (the one with the drums) reappeared in Series 10
@@dalekbumps wasn't his ''condition'' fixed by the Time Lords? The 12th Doctor said so iirc
Narrator: However, it did not, in fact, settle it once and for all... 😜
I find the canon argument as more of an excuse to change Davros, rather than an actual good reason to change the character.
As you said, everyone can be good or evil, and there should be an equal amount of representation. Hence, don't change Davros, introduce more good characters.
he absorbed a huge amount of regeneration energy in Series 9. If anything, it would be strange to have him appear in his chair again, as it's been established that regeneration energy heals injuries. RTD went to the trouble of giving Davros a robot hand in Series 4, acknowledging the fact that his hand was shot off in a previous story. Using the same logic, it makes sense for him to have Davros' injuries be healed in his next appearance, acknowledging the fact that he absorbed a huge amount of regeneration energy in a previous story
@@dalekbumps I agree, that is a good reason. That's not the canon argument I mean. That would fit. Arguing that it's impossible to have one canon for 60+ years is not a reason for changing it.
I was a bit annoyed at first but the millisecond I found out about the timeline fuckery I was 100% on board
Well said, absolutely perfectly put honestly.
Do the history of character options Dalek merchandise
It's on my list!
Thanks you! Someone else pointing out the regeneration energy dose is so nice.
Honestly, having Davros out of his chair really could work if executed well. Like you said the writers could either have Davros simply obtain new cybernetic legs & hand to replace the chair after realizing just how weak he was without it (and how The Doctor was able to use it to briefly protect himself against the Daleks), or go with having him regrow/"heal" his body due to all that regeneration energy he absorbed from the 12th Doctor.
And in a way, Davros's recovery could also potentially be the spark of another Dalek Civil War, with some believing they need Davros in his new form in order for the Dalek race to recover from the Flux Event (which devastated their numbers even before the Sontaran's tricked them into their trap) while others think Davros should remain in a semi-weakened state just so they can control him more easily & foil whatever attempts he makes to take full control of them like he's done a few times in the past.
I really would have preferred if we got Terry Melloy as the new Davros depiction. He is such a great actor I wish the show would bring him back. Plus, his laugh is just so iconic. For me, he is like Mark Hamills Joker. No one can do it better.
As much as I love Julian Bleach, I have to agree that Terry Molloy is the definitive Davros.
On an unrelated note, I would also really like to see Geoffrey Beevers return to TV Doctor Who playing his incarnation of the Master. He's great in the audios, and he could easily slip back into the role of the decayed Master in a timey-wimey plotline where a version of the Master from the distant past returns. I'd also really like to see Alex Macqueen play his incarnation on TV, he's great
@@dalekbumps Alex Macqueen 💯👌👌
It is NOT a prequel. it is a short hand alternate re-make of Genesis. There is no debate.
Correct if you see the dalek in the end of pt1 of gensis of the daleks it has just a gun and no manipulator arm so destination skaro fits in between part one and two so I sadly consider this to be a retcon
It's a time altering show, as long as Davros remains the creator of the Daleks (and he keeps his third blue eye, it's just iconic to get rid off) then I'm fine with the canon changing
Made some great points here bud, as far as I'm concerned I think Davros was due for a change like this, it opens up new possibilities for his character and creates new avenues he could potentially go down
With all of the wibbly wobbly that can happen in Doctor Who as it has for decades, we are prepared.
I thought of a resolution that uses the big finish audios to its advantage. Someone goes back to stop Davros' accident under the impression its what fuels him to create the daleks to begin with, of course it changes little and Davros develops them anyway because of who he is as a person, he then later suffers the accident anyway after Destination:: Skaro. It'd be interesting to set up the Dalek's creation as a fixed point in time that cannot be stopped no matter what.
I don’t remember the _Merlin_ fandom getting so bent out of shape when Pudsy appeared in its Children In Need sketch.
That is a solid video rationalising the whole situation regarding Davros. With the audios, that is actually a clever point that Davros could be lying and twisting the facts to suit his own ends. It would make narrative sense that Davros could change after the series 9 opener and that Davros may or may not want this change. This video definitely lives up to the title.
I might be alone in this but as much as I enjoy the Davros stories and appreciate the actors etc., I never really thought him _that_ necessary to the Dalek backstory... I just feel the Daleks more terrifying as a race who holistically simply wanted to survive no matter the cost (ala Dead Planet Daleks).
The only issue i took was the comment that me and others who are disabled were being insulted by Davros being disabled, other than that I am open to Davros being able to walk it would open the story to a lot of choices, has someone messed with the timeline or has Davros had enough of the stroller jokes and fixed his legs.
"doctor who" "canon" I don't think those mix
Q1: Yes. RTD has publicly stated that he "had a problem" with "associating disability with evil." and he was rewriting Davros to erase his disability.
Q2: Almost certainly given RTDs answer to Q1.
Q3: Yes, Canon is contradicted. But Dr Who canon has always been more than a little wibbly-wobbly.
I think critical drinker summed it up best: ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxe2xblAvmmEeKFZh8eIdo4f0mjde1nqgH
RTD didn't say he was 'rewriting' Davros, just that he's altering his appearance moving forward post-2023.
And he's right to have a problem with associating disability with evil - the vast majority of disabled characters in Doctor Who's past have been evil, and this association is also present in wider media, it's a serious issue with disability representation.
Also, Critical Drinker? Really? That guy is a bigot and I'm sorry but the fact that you're linking to one of his videos saying he 'summed it up best' is a huge red flag
@@dalekbumpsHonestly, being someone who was willing to hear you out because I enjoy your other content, I find the "liking critical drinker is a big red flag" comment a pretty big red flag.
@@muchomuchoman6050 how so? He's a bigot, plain and simple.
@@dalekbumps You're so based omg ily
@@dalekbumps the bias this statement makes known hints at what sort of bias to expect in the video
Do you love transformers 2007 DS game dis is that saontrack
I do indeed, in fact I've had several of the melodies stuck in my head since I was a kid. The mission in the Decepticons version where you had to fight Ironhide took me ages, it took over a dozen attempts before I realised you have to dodge his ground-pound and then melee him when he's recovering
Happy 40th Anniversary to The Transformers 🤖🚔✈️
Its clearly not a retcon. Davros was injured in the war at some point. If future Davros can concoct the reality bomb he can devise a way to regain his former mobility.
My problem with future Davros walking around is it feels like the lazy way out. If they want proper representation than they need to write more heroic and complex characters with disabilities. They need to have a companion who is in a wheelchair.
Davros regaining mobility comes with its own problematic baggage.
to be fair, RTD is only 4 episodes into his new era and he has already established a heroic recurring disabled character in Shirley Ann Bingham, and also established that the TARDIS is now wheelchair-accessible for potential companions who are wheelchair users that may be introduced in the future
@@dalekbumps Absolutely and I have high hopes RTD will follow through. My only worry right now is its surface level rather than meaningful representation. I don't currently see any reason to be less than optimistic though.
I never saw disability on Doctor Who as anything to do with the character. Disability is unfortunate, yeah, but people aren’t defined by that. If they wanted to address that issue, though, then Davros is definitely the wrong choice for that message. Davros never saw his disabilities as anything other than another challenge to overcome, and more often than not uses it to manipulate for his own advantage (see Davros or Witches Familiar). Davros is a ruthless, evil man, but he is defined by his intelligence and cunning, and his injuries are a physical representation of his determination, even to do terrible things. Taking away his disability, if even for a comedy short, just seems to undermine that point more than prove it. Went from cold-blooded genius to Bond villain real quick.
Going off the logic that Davros created the Daleks from his own experiences in his chair, then it muddies his vision by implying that he simply wanted to inflict his own pain onto all other Kaleds, but worse. It makes his mission one of petty vengeance, rather than the strive for his tainted view of perfection that it has been implied to be in novels, comics, audios, and modern TV stories. The Daleks are not the best of a bad situation - they are far more than that, and tainted or not, Davros' vision for them was far more than just 'more of me'
I like both, it's cool to see him out of it and to see him how he truly acted ❤
What about Emperor Davros? Where dies that fit in. I do hope Davros remains in his chair.
Davros was the Emperor during the Dalek Civil War, so post-Resurrection / Revelation but pre-Time War
I think if we see him outside of his chair again it will be pre accident.
I feel like there's a big difference between contradicting audio and contradicting TV.
seeing Davros out of his chair again post-accident would not be contradicting any TV story, it would simply be a case of Davros choosing to abandon his chair or being forced to abandon it after he was healed by the Doctor's regeneration energy
I definitely think RTD's explanation for Davros no longer having a chair was a bit odd, but hopefully if Davros does return in a post accident, post-chair story the explanation for his new body will be explained satisfactorily. Looking at his body in recent appearances there's probably not a whole lot of organics left so I would've thought a completely cybernetic body would be the most likely outcome. Maybe he'll just go full Aperture Science mode and upload his brain into a computer.
But I guess nothing is ever simple in Doctor Who. 😅 Like you said, with BB2, Flux and Toymaker's meddling maybe all manner of things about Dalek history got altered. I guess we'll see
like Darth Vader's suit from Star Wars?
People are still arguing about this?
yeah there were a few long comment debates about it in my Nyder video, which is only tangentially related to this topic, and I've been getting comments on my first video on this topic for a while now. That's what prompted me to make this video
Welcome to the Doctor Who fandom. You must be new.
Wasn't the biggest fan of your first video, but this one is good, addresses most of the points surrounding the issue.
Honestly, contradiction to Big Finish canon that bothered me more than this was the retconning of Mel's origins in "The Giggle." I know a lot of people found Mel irritating back when she was introduced, and the preppy, suburbanite background that John-Nathan Turner wrote for her didn't do much to ingratiate her with the fans either. But whereas Big Finish embraced these origins and used them to compliment her positive aspects to rehabilitate her with the fans, it feels like RTD is just trying to turn her into Sarah Jane 2.0 by turning her into an orphan girl who once traveled with the Doctor and is reunited with a version of him played by David Tenant later in her life. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the manner in which Melanie recounts how she got back to Earth implies that she only traveled in space, not time, which only casts further confusion on the subject of the time period in which Dragonfire was supposed to take place!
I seriously doubt the comedical children in need special will have involvement/impact on the actual show however if it DOES happen to re-write extended universe canon it wouldn't be the first time.
Many EU books & audio dramas have been adapted and thus retconned and the universe has just had to deal with it, an example being that ' Dalek ' is an adaptation of the audio drama Jubilee with the TV canon now trumping that of the EU as if writers will always refer to that version of events
Kaiser Wilhelm would be an interesting one
Personally, I'm fine with Davros being out of his chair and really like the idea. I just think that the reason why he did it is a bit silly
IF they bring him in remembering meeting previous doctors from his stories while not being in the chair....then frankly.... that would kill the character. Its that simple. But hey...its a tv show.
Let davros rest in peace.
if Davros is out of the chair in a future episode, set after his appearance in Series 9, it won't be the same chairless Davros that we saw in the Children in Need special. Davros absorbed a huge amount of regeneration energy in the Series 9 opening two-parter, remember? And regeneration heals injuries. So if Davros is out of his chair in his next chronological appearance following the events of Series 9, it makes sense that his injuries would be healed
@dalekbumps but he wouldn't be davros anymore...just a ratatouille critic looking bloke. Hence killing the character. Leave him alone and do something else.
@@lepterfirefall that's ridiculous, characters in Doctor Who change all the time - namely, the Doctor, when they regenerate. Just because Davros looks different doesn't mean he's not the same character, he'll still be a genius, he'll still be the creator of the Daleks, he'll still hate the Doctor, he'll still be his same megalomaniacal self. Davros is far, far more than just his chair and injuries. And consider - Davros has been a static character for the majority of his appearances over the last few decades. He occasionally changes a bit, but he always reverts back afterwards, usually within the span of the same episode. This is an opportunity to have him actually change and develop as a character, perhaps even in a meaningful way that could lead to some very interesting stories for the character later down the line.
@dalekbumps I disagree. You change the fundamental characteristics of a character...he no longer is that character. Time Lords aside, Its like changing the outside of the tardis. It's a police box. Make it anything else means it's not the same. The tardis will always be a police box. It is It's defining characteristic. Davros is davros. You can update the makeup but he remained the same. Losing that...he's just a generic fascist villan.
It doesn't matter though. It's all just opinion.
@@lepterfirefall So when Captain Jack became immortal, was he not Captain Jack anymore? When Bill was altered by the Cybermen, did she stop being Bill? No, they were the same character, just having undergone a change.
Davros is more than just his chair. His character is his character, regardless of whether he's in the chair or not. When Davros was the Imperial Emperor Dalek, he was still Davros. When Davros was the Great Healer, he was still Davros. Davros in the I,Davros audios, before his accident, is still Davros. So if Davros is healed in a future appearance, he will still be Davros. To say that Davros would be a 'genetic fascist villain' without his chair is doing the character, and his history in the show, an extreme disservice
I will say I don’t disagree with any of your arguments-in fact, your idea about the Daleks ousting Davros because of his regenerated form would make for a very interesting concept.
The only thing I don’t like about it is that I prefer the idea of Davros basing his ultimate survivors off his own life support system, not the other way around. Almost as his way of saying “I survived this horrific accident, so our descendants should be based off of me.”
Honestly, as an average cannon man, I'd say let it be.
Shan didn’t design the Daleks, she came up with the idea. Both audio stories are clear about that. Davros designed the Daleks based on himself. Just a small note on your video pal. Otherwise you’re spot on with this video.
I think people, myself included, don’t enjoy radical changes to the timeline like this; especially ones with blinkered political motivations like this one was. We can all almost universally agree RTD was wrong in his choices and his reasonings here, despite noble intentions, and now we’re dealing with the fallout.
fair point, but it's still true that the details of her contribution to the Dalek design change between audios. In 'Davros', she proposes the name Dalek, and Davros has to ask what it means. In I,Davros, Davros himself comes up with the name, based on a word from the old Kaled language
Overall, you have to admit that RTD’s heart is in the right place and regardless of what people think of the change, we can all agree that it’s nowhere near as big as something like the timeless child
tbh I have no problems with either change. the Timeless Child isn't anywhere near as 'canon-breaking' as some fans seem to think it is. Deadly Assassin changed the lore to make it so that Time Lords can only regenerate 12 times, which has caused far more trouble for Doctor Who in the long run than the Timeless Child will, I'd wager. The Timeless Child thing is only an issue if one considers the Time Lords to be the be-all, end-all of the show - which I don't
@@dalekbumps yeah you’re right. I mean this is Doctor Who we’re talking about here, a show where continuity errors reign supreme so I guess it’s not that big of a deal
*applause* Honestly there are several parts of this that should be applied to fandoms in general. Religiously taking every last detail of cannon as immutable is what holds series back and frankly makes a lot of fans of particular properties very boring people (see: Warhammer 40k fans and Female Custodes). Using your imagination to fill discrepancies and address inconsistencies, as you do here, just serves to make them more interesting.
Is "Davros healed himself so he doesn't need the chair" more insensitive than having him still in it? The point is to stop it being an offensive depiction of disabled people, but just removing the disability seems more offensive than anything
At the end of the day, some people are getting big mads over a six minute children in need comedy skit for a children's TV show.
Well, the big reason why it is a big deal, is because of the wheelchair using community. A lot in the disabled community are upset. That's the main issue I have with it. He called Davros a Wheelchair User.
It’s sad to see people pissed off about changes like this. Like, Is this the only thing that matters to you in your life? If so, man tf up, it’s a show that says “everything is canon” with its metamorphic-fluidic canon that’s consistent in mentioning past events all the way back to and ever since 23.11.63? Jesus Christ
Amazing how people are obsessed with continuity in a series involving constant Time Travel, where historical events can and have been altered.
Doctor Who stated since the start that one should never rewrite history "Not one line" and it has negative consequences and yet it breaks its own rules whenever convenient. Why should I take the show seriously and be invested ? Hence why I lost interest in the show long before the showrunners got more preoccupied craming intersectionalist politics into the show.
Finally the reason RTD revised Davros is ridiculous. For him thinking that people associate disability with evil is absurd own goal on his part. If you're concerned about "representation" why just create new good characters instead of subverting and stripping down a iconic villain like Davros that Terry Nation created.
"Why should I be invested in a show that breaks its own rules?"
Maybe for that exact reason?
Terry Nation didn't give two hoots about Davros. Look at what he did to him (and the Daleks) in Destiny of the Daleks
And RTD has created new characters that epitomise what disabled representation should be - Shirley Ann Bingham is a prime example
Could they not just cast a disabled actor as Davros?
the problem is that the bbc and Disney since they are funding doctor who now are obsessed with representation to the point they forget individuals existed and no race is a monolith, davros now represents all disabled wheelchair users instead of being a single individual, it one of reason quality of the show has gone down, think about davros, he a scientist on a world ravaged by war, crippled in a attack blinded lost his legs only one working arm and yet he survived rebuilt himself to see, became the leader of science elite, saved his race transformed them into a new form that went on to become a galactic power, that impressive, yes he did it through ruthless and evil means but that what makes him a iconic villain, he is a hybrid a half way point between a kaled and a dalek, to take that away and make him just a generic evil scientist takes away what made him special, hell he even says this himself in the big finish story curse of davros,
besides for me it insulting to the disabled and wheelchair community to say you cant have evil characters, davros is and will always be iconic, i have been to plenty of cons where real wheelchair users were dressed up as davros, so until now i never seen anyone actually angry over davros, did you go wow wheelchair users are evil after first time seeing davros?
it like saying darth vader cant be in the iconic suit anymore and must be retconed because it make burn victims/ people on life support look evil, hopefully when we next see davros he be back in the chair, and we can put this behind us, i want great characters, and all groups can be good or evil, limiting any group to be only one is bad writing and blows up in their face
the problem is that Doctor Who has a terrible track record of disability representation. The vast majority of disabled people in Doctor Who are evil tyrants, or insane megalomaniacs. Davros is far more than just his chair, and removing him from it will not take away what makes him special. His personality, motivations, genius and history with the Doctor are all unchanged by this.
Wheelchair users can still dress up as chair-bound Davros at cons - that incarnation of the character still exists. People dress up as previous incarnations of the Doctor at cons, regardless of the fact that the show has moved on from them.
And the Darth Vader analogy is flawed - we literally see at the end of Return of the Jedi that the spirit of Vader is returned to his pre-burned state after his redemption and death, when Hayden shows up at the Ewok party
The fact that people associated disability with evil is sad, i didn't care about davros being disabled, but saying all people with disability are evil is wrong and the message RTD sent basically made people notice the handful of disabled villains. which isnt that many, compared to the amount of non disabled villains there is. (There was never a problem until someone made it a problem) And not being funny but what about professor X a classic disabled superhero, ok granted its not doctor who, but still shows that disability doesn't reflect good or bad, just people want to make it sound like a big problem when it really isn't.
The issue isn't the minority of villain characters in Doctor Who who are disabled, the issue is that the majority of disabled characters in Doctor Who are villains
NO wrong again. Its literally explicitly stated in episodes that the Daleks were modelled AFTER his original life support chair which WAS THE MARK 1 travel machine. It's canon altering and you simply cant spin it as anything less than an idiotic choice made for no reason.
Which episodes explicitly state that the Daleks were modelled after Davros' chair?
And which episodes state that Davros' chair is the Mark I? The only reference to that I could find was in an old annual, in fact the I, Davros audio itself contradicts this, by stating that there were two earlier prototypes before the Mark III Travel Machine was created, neither of which were Davros' chair.
Again, I'd be very interested to know: Which Doctor Who episodes, classic or modern, *explicitly* *state* that the Daleks were modelled after Davros' chair? I'd like to know
Sure, Doctor Who has never been perfectly consistent, but this was clearly never enough the case to let a retcon this major slip in unnoticed. So this rationale holds little more weight than "Because they can". It'd be on level with the sign on the tardis one day changing to "Pork and Beans" without any explanation and the showrunners just saying "Oh yeah, we noticed there was a lot of controversy around the police and didn't wanna be insensitive about it. By the way, this is canon now and we have no plan to change it back. Tough shit, anyone who doesn't like it."
but there is an explanation for Davros changing. The Witch's Familiar has a scene in which Davros absorbs regeneration energy, which has healing properties. Davros is critically injured, so it makes perfect sense that the regeneration energy would heal him
@@dalekbumps The Witch's Familiar is set way after the events of Destination: Skaro. Unless Davros fully regenerated offscreen and someone decided to send him back in time to replace his past self, this explanation doesn't make any sense. It'd be like if I said "The Sixth Doctor tried to fix his chameleon circuit. So it'd make perfect sense if they did a special featuring the Third Doctor and had the sign on his tardis changed to 'Pork and Beans'".
@@muchomuchoman6050 The Doctor is a time-traveller, remember? The TARDIS brought him to a point in time in Davros' past, before the accident that confined him to his chair. Did you even watch the video before commenting? I assumed by your comment that you were referring to any future, post-Series 9 appearances of Davros that depict him as being out of his chair, because it's blatantly obvious that Destination: Skaro is a prequel to Genesis of the Daleks, it didn't even occur to me that you'd missed that because the special makes it very, very clear.
If future appearances of Davros, set after the events of The Witch's Familiar, depict him out of his chair, we have the regeneration energy explanation from TWF to explain that. But we don't need such an explanation for Davros' appearance in Destination: Skaro, because at that point in time Davros hasn't had his accident yet.
Of course I'm talking about the events of Destination: Skaro. That's why I called it a retcon. And sure, I guess it could make some sense of this for a future appearance of Davros, but it's still irrelevant to the discussion Destination: Skaro. And as you demonstrated with the question 3 answer, all that leaves to make sense of the events of Destination: Skaro is to either speculate that Davros decided to lie about the order in which events in his life took place for some reason or just chalk it up to "Russell T Davies is showrunner and can do whatever he wants". As for Russell's stated reasoning for this change, I've got my own thoughts on it. But from what I've seen in the video and the comments, I've realized I'm probably not changing your mind on that anytime soon.
@@muchomuchoman6050 in that case, Big Finish beat RTD to the punch when it comes to retconning Davros' history. Time War 4 establishes that the New Who Davros and the Classic Who Davros might not even be the same individual, and that the Classic Who Davros died in the Time War and the New Who Davros is an amalgamation of different Davroses from various alternate timelines (each with their own different origin stories) created by the Dalek Time Strategist to restore the Daleks to the universe after the War Valeyard erased them all from history. There'a also Anti-Genesis, in which the War Master overwrites Davros' entire history by going back in time, killing him as a boy, and taking his place in the timeline. At this point, changes to Davros' history are less 'retcons' are more a natural result of the shifting nature of the timelines within the universe, in which time travel, time wars, second Big Bangs and Toymakers canonically change history all the time
Thank you. I have been sick to death of people shouting the meaningless right wing buzz word 'woke' at Doctor Who recently.
🐙
Look I know we've already spoken about this and perhaps that comment was to an extent what prompted the video.
But in both this video and the last it feels like you're answering questions no one's asking while skipping the thing people are debating over.
No one's saying that Davros can't be shown out of the chair in future appearances.
The issue is a large amount of people interpretted what he said as the he was retconning it.
If that's not how you interpreted what he said that's ok but then to address that surely you should talk about what he said rather than just say "no" and then say a bunch of stuff that could happen.
I'd love to hear your interpretation of what he said and address the points which make people think he said something else.
But if you're really getting a bunch if comments on this it's likely because you're not doing that and kind of answering a question no one's asking.
If he is retconning it that may be justified, it may not be.
And obviously you don't believe he is... But you don't explain why beyond "no"
It's your channel obviously you can make videos on whatever you like.
But you're not RTD you can't say for certain what he meant without backing it up with at least something.
Until I see any actual evidence of a retcon in the show itself, I can confidently state that it is not a retcon. If the actual show presents evidence that a retcon has taken place, then I will alter my views to fit the facts, and release another video discussing it. But I don't take a throwaway comment made by Russell in an interview as gospel, and I think the fandom's general reaction to that interview has been massively overblown
@@dalekbumps And that's fine.
That's the stance the TARDIS Wiki are taking and I agree we should only take into account the things in the stores.
But the "throwaway comment" is to my knowledge what the discourse has been about.
And you've made two videos on it now.
Both of which say it didn't mean what most people think it meant without anything to back it up.
I guess I'm just kind of confused why, if you don't think it's that important.
Like that's the thing people are talking about.
If you don't think it's worth talking about that's fine but then why put so much effort into debunking something that you don't think is important then don't actually address that thing.
@@thebobbrom7176 it's more about people immediately assuming that RTD intends to alter Davros' past appearances, his wording in the interview was clunky so I suppose it's possible to interpret it that way but I don't think that's what he's doing at all, I think he's simply decided that in future appearances, Davros will be out of the chair in a similar way to how we see him in Destination: Skaro - which then led me to discuss the possible in-universe reasons for this, which then led me to talk about the I, Davros discrepancy, which then led to me talking about how Doctor Who's canon is fluid (and potentially non-existent) in an attempt to ease people's minds regarding the fact that there's a discrepancy between a new TV story and a beloved audio.
I'm not trying to debunk RTD's statements in the interview, I'm trying to explain how we can rationalise what we see in the actual published media itself, the only reason why I brought up RTD's interview comments was to discuss the issue of disability representation in Doctor Who as it's related to this debate (which RTD brings up in the interview) and to extrapolate from his comments the possibility that future appearances of Davros may feature him out of his chair, if that makes sense
@@dalekbumps That's fine it's just the "Did he mean.... No" kind of felt a bit weird if you're considering other interpretations.
Personally as stated the last time we spoke I do interpret what he said as an intention to retcon it.
I wish it wasn't and I could read it a different way but he said what he said and I can't think of another meaning that I can justify.
@@thebobbrom7176 RTD simply says that Davros used to look one way, and will now look a different way. Admittedly his wording is a bit clunky but he gives no indication as far as I'm concerned that he plans on actively retconning Davros' previous appearances. Chances are he will simply establish that Davros healed himself and moving forward we will see him out of his chair, but that doesn't mean that the previous appearances of Davros in his chair didn't happen, any more that having the Master appear in a female incarnation via Missy means that previous male incarnations of the Master didn't happen. He even compares it to black-and-white vs colour, arguing that Doctor Who was once in black-and-white and then shifted to colour - that doesn't mean that the previous black-and-white stories never happened, just that a change took place and from then on the show was a particular way that was different to what came before
How can it be a prequel
According to the cin special davros had created the Dalek in full, all the doctor gave him was the plunger idea
Meaning the only thing he needed to do was the arm
If davros was injured in the special and the travel machine was destroyed this would have been explained away as the way he ends up in his life support system
But seeing as the accident didn't happen and the Dalek machine is intact and the events of Genesis would be the very next moments, when he unveils the Dalek machine which means he has to get injured, heal, be inserted into his life support machine in a matter of minutes
Not possible
The canon has always been problematic in the show, yes I know this but the are major things that should never be messed with and this was one especially when the writer is the moron that caused the very problem he is criticising, he created lumic, max Capricorn, blah blah blah
The only people in wheelchairs in the classics were dortman (who took out several daleks in his final moments making him a hero), Doctor Judson (who wasn't a villain until he became possessed making him an entirely different character so neutral) and davros (who depending on your opinion was trying to help his race survive at all costs, yes his megalomaniacal nature came out in the worst way to the point where he became the villain)
Sorry RUSSELL just had to make up for his stupidity which he messed up himself "a lot of us on the production staff took issues with associating disability with evil"
Whose fault was this RUSSELL
Sorry he just messed with something big to pander to the audience who are sick of this insipid pandering
The Mark III travel machine seen in the CiN special was a prototype, made evident by the fact that Castavillian had never seen it before. In the time between this special and Genesis, many more travel machines were produced (no small feat given the resource scarcity on Skaro) and the entire Kaled Elite were aware of the project and had been working on it for a while. We see in Genesis that Davros is still making modifications to the project, focusing specifically on weapons and voice control, implying that some time has passed between the end of this special and the start of Genesis - enough time to grow the Dalek mutants en masse, produce small army of Mark III travel machines from this one prototype, and fine-tune the weapons and command programs of the Daleks - well enough time for Davros to be embroiled in an accident and build a life-support chair for himself.
Also, a minor point but worth mentioning - Dortmun didn't kill any Daleks. He tried to, but his bomb failed, and he is immediately killed, he threw away his life for nothing.
@@dalekbumps nor had any of the other scientists in the bunker
And taking out, trying to take out, either way he went out trying to do something positive
@@snakedaemongaming6590 by the time of Genesis of the Daleks, the other scientists in the bunker had definitely seen the Mark III travel machine. Ronson knew it by name, and Davros talks about it like it's a boardroom meeting - his exact word are "for some time, I have been experimenting with the Mark III project, details and modifications will be distributed later"
it is very much *not* the first time the scientists have seen the Dalek. Ronson even says "magnificent! he's perfected voice control!" implying that he and the other scientists have been working on the Dalek for some time.
As for Dortmun, not only does his bomb fail, the plan he devises to attack the Dalek ship gets everyone killed. He is very much presented in the story as a fanatic with lofty goals who is ultimately pretty useless.
@@dalekbumps the Dalek machine was created as a means of preserving the species
Obviously his tests proved ineffective so I'd assume they were rushed like most of davros' experiments seeing as the daleks tried to kill him
Sorry I refuse to believe he could perform experiments on the Dalek as well as being bed ridden, on life support, healing, etc etc
The kaled people would have got others to work on it for years so I don't see this argument working
I'm done arguing about this as RUSSELL said it himself "I say this is the way we see him now"
@@snakedaemongaming6590 for all we know, there were decades between the events of Destination: Skaro and Genesis of the Daleks. The war between the Kaleds and the Thals went on for thousands of years, and according to the I,Davros audio, when Davros was a teenager there were still areas of Skaro that were verdant, and many Kaleds still held out hope of winning the war before their city was sealed in a massive dome
Or it could be that _Doctor Who_ is kaput, for a decade or so at least, owing to a combination of politically correct ‘DEI’ colonization and a demonstrable malaise of overfamiliarity in the public consciousness 🤷♂️
I love how nobody has thought to think that the regeneration energy davros siphoned from the twelfth doctor could have slowly repaired his body
@@Theeighthdoctor1996 ikr? It seems like such an obvious explanation for why he'd be healed
@@dalekbumps at first I thought it was clone bodies like emperor palpatine in star wars then I rewatched the series 9 premier 2 parter and was like "oh yeah he siphoned off regeneration energy"