The only thing that was actually bad about his fight is that we severely underestimated how much elemental damage was truly required for the fight. As soon as we got the elemental part down it was plain and simple afterwards.
I think he is still very strong. Heck i think he was stronger than Anything in dark souls 3 even after you Break his Elemental check. It's just that most people have finally learned all his movesets by the time you lower your pride to use an Elemental weapon instead of the usual META. thats why you feel he become so much simpler.
@@prophetmuhammad3890 Oh no i completely agree with him still being hard even with max elemental damage. And unlike some people still today i went in knowing what to use. Unfortunately even what a year and a half, people still use freaking raging brachydios weapons and it hurts very badly.
I do agree that its what the majority of us probably started with, but i still feel aswell that some weapons are just having bad matchup issues cause of the winning condition for it. And I can see people might find it discouraging when their weapon regardless of builds having to work far harder than others and it still doesnt come close. They might find it as a chore after few first runs of farming his mats.
I honestly think Alatreon would’ve been hated less if the MH Team had flipped the release of Raging Brachy with Frostfang, it would’ve given people access to strong Ice weapons to counter the fire phase instead of dropping a very strong Blast monster who gave essentially useless weapons for the Alatreon fight. If people had used Frostfang there’d be no issues.
I honestly think that Alatreon (in retrospect) was mechanically fine and a nice challenge, it's just that the mechanics around Escaton Judgement and a few other important things weren't explained nearly well enough. We were told "Bring elemental weapons". What we weren't told is that certain elements are totally useless. We weren't told the elements that could be useful are entirely situational. We weren't told that there was a high chance all of us going in for the first time were going to bring the wrong element and couldn't switch without dying. We were told "Deal elemental damage to weaken its ultimate attack". What we weren't told was that the attack was an outright, guaranteed, map-spanning one-shot that would completely end a four player hunt in an instant without *ANY* chance for recourse if you didn't manage the DPS check. What we weren't told was that we also had to juggle special horn break mechanics on top of that, at risk of the next elemental check being rendered impossible. What we weren't told was that Alatreon would be in the air for half the fight, making the window for most weapons to get that vital elemental damage in *really* tight. We were told "You can't use farcasters in the final area". What we weren't told was that the 'final area' was the *ONLY* area, meaning you weren't allowed to fix any mistake related to the above points without dying. Combine how little we were told with how collectively complex Alatreon's mechanics were compared to literally everything else in the game up to that point, and it's no wonder that Alatreon had such a piss-poor reception when he first dropped. Really doesn't help that the entire meta before that was blast weapons, and people had mostly been ignoring elemental stuff for months, if not longer. Again, Alatreon wasn't bad in and of itself, but it needed either a more in-depth explanation or a stronger precedent for any of what it was doing beforehand. Then you have Fatalis, which was proof that you can have an incredibly dangerous monster in that game without being overtly complex or vague about it. All they really tell you is "break the head", and that's all you need to know beyond basic Hunter skills you already learned up to that point, and it still ended up being a harder fight than Alatreon. Hell, you theoretically don't even *need* to break Fatalis' horns if you can evade his stage 3 attacks well enough, whereas the Alatreon elemental check is mandatory if you don't want to cart. Fatalis succeeded at every point where Alatreon failed, and thus had a much better reception. In fact, I'd argue that Iceborne's Fatalis should be the gold standard for hyper difficult fights in Monster Hunter moving forward, there isn't an ounce of bad game design in that fight outside of MAYBE a couple hitboxes.
You were told that some elements didnt do any damage, but only when you used it. We and the NPCs knew NOTHING about this monster. Its natural that they wouldn't tell us. All they really knew were stuff from legends. Besides, if they told us EVERYTHING, people would complain about handholding. They made this one into a unique puzzle that you had to solve and I think that's beautiful.
@@renno2679 I agree, to an extent. There's a fine line between having a challenging thing you have to figure out and having a slew of unexplained mechanics that heavily punish you for not immediately getting just one of them. Every other monster in the game with special mechanics both does a better job explaining/demonstrating them before its too late and generally has less of said mechanics that you have to figure out all at once. Not to mention, in the grand scheme of things, it's better to risk explaining a set of mechanics a bit more than you should than it is to throw players into the deep end with only an extremely vague and arguably misleading idea of how to swim. They didn't have to explain every part that they missed, only a couple more points probably could've made Alatreon a whole lot less jarring on the first attempts. The idea that in-universe we wouldn't know this stuff also only really gets you so far once it causes the initial gameplay experience to suffer for it. This brings me back to Fatalis, since he is a monster that we lore-wise knew even less about going into the battle, was more difficult than Alatreon by a fair margin, and they still did a better job explaining while keeping a lot hidden. One of the key ways it does this is that it doesn't wait until you are already far past fixing your mistakes (without simply abandoning the quest) to tell you that you're doing something wrong, which is one of the things that made Alatreon really frustrating at first. Fatalis gave you every opportunity to fix any shortcoming, meaning it was on you whether or not you could get through it, whereas Alatreon was just like "Oh, you didn't bring the right element, and you're in a team of four, so you can go fuck yourself" and made that attempt a guaranteed failure.
@@manzac112 theres a difference between "spoiling a fight" and leaving out crucial information to the success of a mission that can only be figured out by a combination of throwing your body @ the monster and values/numerics you literally can not access in game.
@@BlueBannette Well, the Monster Hunter endgame isn't really the type of that is going to hold out your hand and give you a lot of information. Plus, I'm okay with the devs doing something like this for once because it's a fun and challenging right. I should count my blessings lucky as a dual blades main. Not to mention, that there are many more hunters that will help you than just outright complaining on Reddit about an ENDGAME BLACK DRAGON. Another main problem was that it was Master Rank 24 and not an MR 80-90 quest.
I really loved Alatreons move set and fight, he's fight has a really nice flow to it, but I understand the debate and dislike around his Judgment move.
I appreciate this fight. It's the devs presenting a problem to the players that they then have to solve. Raw builds, blast builds and shield/spread HBG's were all anyone played online. The mechanics that just shredded Temporal/Rocksteady also removed a huge safety net. The devs said here's a hard endgame fight with great weapons and armor as a reward go figure it out. You have to sit and actually learn the fight, the patterns, the animation, the weaknesses and prepare. But once you learn it, you're unstoppable. That's like the essence of the series in a nutshell. I'm glad that wasn't lost.
I totally agree. My first kill on Alatreon was me and 3 other random hunters figuring out the fight blind, and after a few attempts we had pretty much solved the mechanic, it was just up to our skill from then on. We strapped on our best Ice builds, and that kill was the second most satisfying hunt I've ever completed (the first being Fatalis ofc)
I didn't like the elemental checks but I also had more fun with this monster than any other in the series, so I can't hate Capcom and this was also free dlc.
i think alatreon is an amazing monster and an amazing fight, but i despise escaton judgement. it's not really the fact that it's a dps check; i just hate the fact that it's literally 100% impossible to avoid no matter how good you are. you can go completely untouched throughout the entire fight but escanton will FORCE you to take damage and FORCE you to heal. i think it goes against the entire point of a combat system that rewards you for learning telegraphs and avoiding attacks.
its not 100% impossible to avoid it, you can kill him before he does his first escaton. You can check most speedruns with any weapon and they do that, they dont even bother building elemental damage and go full raw instead
@@ronoronoronorono tbh factoring in speedrunners is kinda pointless because the grinded the game so much to get specific times. Of course they can kill Alatreon in less than 5 mins but behind that one specific attempt they had to endure countless EJ.
I think it is an amazing fight but has the downside of forcing the players hand. The fight tries to make it that you need to solve the problem of Escaton but only gives one solution and it just rubbed people the wrong way.
@@rerdak4334 It's definently possible with GS, especially if you're a good player and are doing it solo. It was possible with Gunlance as well but you'd have to play melee only. And imo atleast you might as well play something else then. Glad to hear you chadded on him with GS tho!
@@rerdak4334 It's possible to do GL against him, but unless you're that determined to fight him with it or you're a speedrunner you won't be able to go past the bad matchup.
Sums up the issue with MH I've been seeing since FU. The playerbase will inevitably rise up the difficulty, which clouds their judgement even if some fight have glaring issues like Alatreon.
As a long time MH player my own opinion is that W:I Alatreon was implemented badly for me. 1. The fight by itself, without factoring in Escaton Judgment mechanic, is fun for me. But you can tell they did design Alatreon to be fought with a group of people. Old school Alatreon's attacks and speed were very slow, but all its attacks had long, wide reach and area. W:I has that with a major speed boost and few intervals between attacks that leave it open before quickly moving onto its next attack. This leaves more defensive style players at a disadvantage compared to aggressive players. It also tells me that the intended strategy is while its focused on attacking one of your party members it was then your and others chance to at least then to get a few meaty hits in before Alatreon switched to you or another party member. Granted this maybe done to balance it out for how long it stays down when a horn is broken or is power sealed. 2. They released it before Frostfang Barioth. Frostfang's weapons would have at least been really useful in quests when Alatreon starts in Fire active mode (especially its Special Assigmnent quest) if you didn't have access to Safi or Kulve weapons because they aren't available to you or if you couldn't be bothered to grind for them. Kulve Taroth for the RNG and Safi for its materials. 3. It is ultimately unbalanced that certain weapons can clearly abuse the Elemental DPS check and is ironic that many of the fastest speedruns against it were done with Blast or Raw weapons. 4. MR 24 was too low of a requirement. They should have at least made it MR50 then you know that most of players by then would have spent some time in the Guiding Lands and would have had materials to augment their equipment. The English language Twitter account when Alatreon released gave the advice to use 4 pieces of Silver Rath armour for the True Elemental Crit set bonus, however, you had to be at least MR70 to do Silver Rath quests in any capacity. This made more than few people be peeved.
1. What? Designed for a party? I went back to world one evening/night, had a couple of beer and was feeling them pretty good. And even after not playing that game for a few months i managed to kill him solo. Yes, with dual blades, but like i said, i was drunk. 2.That point is very... That is not even a part of an argument. The first runs i went with Beotodus DB? It would have worked if i just had more experience with DB´s. We reached the DPS check pretty every time. 3. It was well known that the light weapons are way better in terms of elemental damage and the heavy ones are for raw damage. So the deal always was: motion value for elemental damage. And like you said: It is possible to kill it with raw really fast. So whats the point here? 4. Well .. Yeah. If you cart VERY easy .. Go back, get better gear, try again. Isn´t that what MH is about? I can´t tell how many tries I had on AT Velkhana. And i had to go back several times to change my set just to be pretty balanced between damage and utility.
@@gnihi1 1. Let's not forget that a major selling about MH is the multiplayer. With W:I arguably having the best online play capability of the main line MH games its stands to reason they would plan around making the stronger end game monsters a bit more focused around multiplayer. With them figuring that most players will rather try and tackle it together with other players. Alatreon is not like Safi or Behemoth exactly and it is quite possible to do it solo reliably. I have done it several times as well, but like I said with its higher speed and less openings compared to its old self, more defensive players or not as aggressive players are at a disadvantage as they won't get in as much damage in. And so they don't reach the DPS check or they don't kill it in time after the 2nd horn break basically resigning them to automatic failure. I think the dev team planned it so that the general good tactic against Alatreon would be have a balanced team of the heavy and light, fast hitting weapons. The light quick weapon users with their better elemental power can weave in and out between attacks to seal Alatreon's power easily, then when it falls over after after a power seal or horn break the heavy hitting weapons can have the perfect chance to land their hardest hitting attacks (which are slow) for the extra HP damage. It's the same with Fatalis too essentially. You can do Fatalis solo as well, but you can tell they planned its fight so people could tackle it with a balanced team of ranged and melee weapon users. Ranged weapons users can break the wings easily and readily attack its chest preventing it from flying and making it go on all fours more often so that melee users will have an easier time hitting the head. As they can break its horns more easily with their weapons. That is also likely why they gave Excitable Fiver (Aiden) a Heavy Bowgun in the Special Assigmnent quest knowing that certain melee weapons were some of the most popular weapons used by players to maybe hint at the melee and range team up. 2. I will concur you are somewhat right on that point and that its more of a "quality of life" issue. But Frostfang coming after Alatreon kind left its own presence a bit underwhelming and you can not deny its weapons would be ideal against a Fire mode starting Alatreon having a good balance of strength and elemental power. Because the irony is that they geared players to be as prepared for Alatreon. They rotated Safi and MR Kulve whose weapons are strongest elemental weapons in W:I. And even gave Level 4 elemental attack decos a week before Alatreon release as log in bonuses. Having Frostfang's weapons as an option to tackle Alatreon would have only been beneficial. 3. My point is they made elemental DPS kind of moot and be an annoying or trivial mechanic rather than one that was really engaging and fun. 4. Yes that is a point of MH, but MH also works well to sort of guides you as the game gets harder and you take more dangerous monsters. Alatreon is a bit outlier since it was introduced as DLC so it broke the pattern a bit as you would usually fight something like it at the end of a MH game. A MR 50 barrier would suffice in order for players to get and augment their gear so that they wouldn't at least go in with tissue paper defence and would get some decos as well. Essentially more casual and newer players were led to a slaughter and much of the misunderstanding that took place could have been avoided
@@Castigar48 Like I said W:I Alatreon is not impossible to solo and it can readily be done by players who know what they are doing. It's just how it attacks and its new attack speed is what makes me think they planned Alatreon to be a bit more focused around multiplayer with them figuring that most of the player base will rather tackle it in a group. That the intended strategy was maybe to have players with faster hitting weapons to weave in and out of the wide AOE attacks and that when it gets power sealed the opportunity presents itself for everyone to land their longest combos or slowest but strongest attacks. The same applies for W:I Fatalis. It can be done solo as well, but you can tell they intended to make Fatalis to be tackled with a balanced group of gunners and melee users. Gunners can attack the wings and chest effectively making Fatalis' head more accessible for Blademasters so that they can break its horns.
I have a love hate relationship with alatreon, I think he's really cool and I really have no problem fighting him, until I for some reason get to the point where I've broken both of his horns, consistently beat the damage checks and he's somehow not dead yet and now I'm screwed bc I can't deal any more elem damage
That's why I always fight him with dragon element He has 1 or 2 weakness stars to it when It's on fire or ice state but he has 3 (or 2 I can,t remember) when on dragon. So when I break the horns he is always on dragon and I can deal damage for the rest of the fight Only problem is that I deal less elemental damage early in the fight
The only REAL problem with Alatreon is the Escaton, too punishing if your team doesn't deal enough elemental damage. Ironically I prefer hunt it solo. For me it's more manageable.
Both of you are wrong. Online is even easier to hunt Alatreon. Only way to fail is if you get paired up with bad players, which will happen at least twice a day.
@@Gayhan- alatreon and fatalis are monsters I have to do solo cause people will triple cart. I get 15 minute hunts solo anyway for Alatreon so I don't care. But I beat fatalis once, with one other person any more was a failure. even post fatalis couldn't get a single alatreon win because people would kart before judgement and we also wouldn't deal enough to stop him. for reference, solo I easily get 2 elemental stuns and I'm using hunting horn meaning my team were also getting support buffs to further help us not die and hit harder.
I mained Great Sword in Iceborne, which has little to no elemental damage and Alatreon is still very much doable if you change your build to elemental attack. People at the time were just following youtube META videos like idiots and then complained because you can't complete the game with only 1 build. Like, what's the point of playing Monster Hunter if you only use one build
I’ve never understood the hate for Iceborne’s Alatreon. There have ALWAYS been one-shot attacks you need to deal with properly, it’s just that dealing with them was relegated to Superman dives, blocking, etc. Alatreon is just the more interesting version of that, awarding aggressive play and proper preparation with an easier hunt and faster kill. And the biggest thing I don’t get is that a lot of the complaints come from the same people who say World was devoid of pre-hunt preparation. For Alatreon, you had to build for one element specifically, bring Astera jerky, and above all, you couldn’t restock. It’s THE most prep-heavy fight in the game, and yet a lot of the older hunters immediately turned their backs on him because “MMO mechanics don’t belong in Monster Hunter” I guess, despite weapon classes, combos, overdetailed armor and weapons, etc all being major components of MMO’s. That’s not even to mention his amazing move pool and hitboxes, Alatreon’s one of the most fair and intense fight in the series, and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like his design that much/hates his old world hunt for how boring it is.
Replying having completely finished the video, the gunlance is actually a fair criticism I’ll admit. I’ve been playing exclusively with the ICE mod which changes elemental values recently, hence my ignorance, sorry about that. Even if EVERY monster has easier and harder matchups depending on your weapon, Alatreon made Gunlancers almost completely useless, even more so without using slap Lance. This is still a pretty minor issue though, as he is not unkillable for a solo GL player, in a similar vein to Gogmazios with Hunting Horn. Plus, every other weapon has a decent to great contribution to add, even GS has the amazing frostcraft/crit element set of Velkhana. Overall still a 10/10 fight in my book, something I eagerly look forward to doing every time I come back to World.
The only thing I disliked about this Alatreon and one of the things I think should have been done away with or at least done different is the fact that regardless of if you are successful or not stopping the big Super Nova you will STILL take Damage. I'm all for stopping or avoiding One Hit Kills it's the fact that it still damages you either way that annoyed me personally.
@@lunarpurge8494 Hmm I guess I could see that being a personal issue, but I don't mind it after only one mitigation. Maybe after two or three you should be immune? Or if you break a horn?
what it was, was that in everyone's head, raw was the most optimal offensive option. They slept on the Safi gear, slept on the Kjarr Weapons, all those tools capcom gave us because they were outperformed by raw damage and blast weapons that technically did more damage. And they were caught offguard without thinking about this. they were set in their ways to just bring the high damage generalist sets, whereas anyone that was actually paying attention to the tools they were receiving was ready to tackle it. Hell, I was experimenting with fire options for AT Nami.
Yeah that was really weird, I feel bad for all the young hunters coming across their first alatreon fight and getting absolutely destroyed cause they didn’t have the right equipment to beat him.
you can actually definitely beat alatreon without augmented gear and mr 24 equipment. its just a skill check at that point. tons of non-speedrunners and casuals on reddit can do it with some time put into it.
I do think that was an issue. More than anything, the low experience level of those players made the fight seem impossible. It should be a MR100 fight.
Difficulty shouldn't be brought into the argument since it is an subjective matter after all. Most people dislikes Alatreon because they don't understand the mechanic and got steamrolled. The best argument I've seen is the one mentioning Elemental DPS check limiting certain playstyles, which is true. I've only tried Alatreon solo with DB, CB, LS, GS, HH, Bow and LBG so I can at least assure that these mains shouldn't have any problem dealing with Judgement. Gunlace users that mained shelling is probably the biggest victim of Alatreon's design choice.
Well, Gunlance is the least liked weapon by capcom, so thats not a suprise. But for real: The Gunlance without shelling is pretty much useless. The damage is to low and even with frost craft it was laughable. On top of that, the moving speed is slow as well. Speaking of the real hits, not the poking.
@@gnihi1 I mean, they eventually did justice by introducing fatalis weapons, and his Gunlance has literally the highest raw number among all weapons in iceborne. That said, it's not that the devs hate Gunlance but they're just bad at designing its overall mechanic.
@@zionpark0803 It doesn´t help much to add one weapon. First of all: Not everyone had beaten Fatalis. I never did, so i hadn´t the chance to craft it. Second, it has normal shelling, but what if that is absolutely not your play style? You have three different shellings and therefore three different play styles. So its maybe useless. Even in Stories 2 the Gunlance has by far the lowest damage numbers and the worse skill set. And the numbers make it pretty clear. Gunlance is always one of the slowest weapons in speedruns. The movement is static, the damage small, the shelling can´t make up for that and there is only one skill to push your damage.
@@zionpark0803 introducing an endgame weapon with busted slots as justification for the sub-par design isn't enough. Sure fatalis Gunlance is good, but what about the rest of the gunlances?
My major gripes with Alatreon are that 1. Despite Element being highly, highly encouraged because Escaton Judgment, his Elemental hitzones aren't very potent. His Forelimbs cap out at 20, and his Head caps out at like 14 or something. And it gets even worse when he goes into Dragon mode. In terms of actual DPS, Raw is a bazillion times better than Element in this fight. 2. The progress towards suppressing a Judgment is directly correlated to the actual Element damage you're dealing to Alatreon. That in itself is fine, but it goes back to his hitzones again. His Forelimbs aren't his weak spot, it's his Head. However, his forelimbs are his Element weak spot. And other than borderline autistic measuring of your own damage numbers or looking that up on the internet, you wouldn't know that. Hitting the actual weak spot should do the most damage, but in terms of suppressing Judgement, it doesn't All I would do to his fight is bump up the Element hitzones on his head and forelegs. Like, 25 on the forelegs and 25 or 30 on the head.
1. and 2. are pretty much the same thing.What weapon were you using to have that many problems passing Escaton,Gunlance? If you ever tried to look at the time during your solo Alatreon clears,you would notice that raw is winning,but usually not by great far(even with Fatalis) because of the free knockdowns you get after passing a check,you can always get 2 really comfortably as long as you know the fight. And no,bumping up his elemental hitzones would not help,I am glad you're not on balance team and no wonder you like For Honor.If you increase his hitzones every other weapon will be affected as well,if you think some weapons have problems dealing enough elemental damage then you should just decrease their difficulty of passing Escaton instead of making a change that will affect everyone else,you clearly never played old gens when it was an actual thing,and DBs obliterated endgame bosses with high Elemental HZVs
@@kiravremyanoi4772 no, it's much better to have element actually be good. You can very easily just make the threshold for the nova higher. Which in practice, doesn't change much, but it results in the mechanic feeling natural (the monster with a crippling weakness to element is actually weak to it? Makes sense) as opposed to now where it feels kind of forced. And it would make speedruns significantly more interesting too, but I get most MH copers think being good at the game is cheating or some shit so it'd be lost on them. That and element sucks dogshit in this game, who gives a fuck if it's OP vs Alatreon, let it at least be useful somewhere seeing as it's complete meme tier for all but 3 weapons and CB vs Luna. It's the same theory as monster w/ low HP but bad hitzones vs monster w/ high HP and great hitzones. In practice, same length fight, but it just feels infinitely better to fight the latter because shitty damage for no discernable reason just feels bad, and the actual player feel is very important to the perception of the fight. The guy also never said he had trouble with Escaton, just that he thinks it's dumb as fuck to have the monster whose whole gimmick is elemental weakness not actually be weak to element in a meaningful way.
Alatreon is fine, what is not tho is Escaton. Specifically after you break both of his horns. To add, why is he available for MR24? That's ridiculously low and is quite literally shoving people into a wall. The fact that Ruiner Nergigante had to be grinded to MR100 to even be available to fight makes the design choice of putting Alatreon in such a low MR baffling. Which is why people tend to look at the fight with such disgust because their first impressions of it were shattered when they went in blind with Raging Brachy Gear.
you literally parrot every opinion from forums into 1 comment,what are you bringing to the table except repeating? if you cant kill alatreon in 2 novas you're definetly doing something very wrong,especially if you don't do it solo
@@kiravremyanoi4772 So I'm not supposed to comment my own opinion on the topic, just because I watched the video late and alot more people had a similar opinion? Idk what's with that amount of vitriol just because I had similarities to others. And besides, the fact that to counter EJ is a flat DPS check is what I'm having an issue with, which is highlighted when you break both of his horns. It's either you hit those checks or you cart. Which isn't bad by itself, but when the means to hit that check is via elemental damage, something that is absolutely terrible in World AND you can only do it optimally in a specific phase of the fight, just makes the flat DPS check feels cheap. Hell, I even enjoyed Fatalis more than Alatreon purely because of how restricting that fight was.
The Alatreon( Iceborne one ) has honestly the most stylish basic attack and i'm not even talking of THE ESCATON JUDGMENT( of course it was annoying but yet badass )
Aletreon's base kit one among my favorites in the game. 95% of my problem with the fight is that Aletreaon has the clock on his side and he intends to stall for as long as possible on the majority of runs by staying in the air. He's completely immune to any standard method of dropping him when enraged, and it's surprisingly difficult to reach for a flinch shot on the rare chance he isn't enraged. Making this fight feel like trying to get an optimized speed run in a game with a lot of RNG... I would propose to make the DPS check a bit larger (maybe change the horn HP, but idk) but make him ONLY fly while to use his aerial moves. This way it would be more skill dependant than what we have now.
Tbh, it's one of my favorite fights in the game rn. The problem is that a lot of people didn't care about / weren't good at making builds and got dunked on for it. When I first tried alatreon, I kept failing the escaton check in a 4 man while using an optimized stygian zinogre hh build (good dragon attack + lots of elemental dmg songs). I was a bit confused at first and thought the escaton check should've gotten a minor nerf, but then I looked at my teammate's builds... I ended up grinding out the kjarr dragon DB and proceeded to kill him first try on my first ever DB hunt. The problem were the people who innitially thought it was a skill issue, learned the fight (or maybe not lmao), then complained after still not being able to do it when their build had
@@Exel3nce I personally disagree, I like the idea in monster hunter of having to adapt to the monster rather than being stationary with a build that's been carrying you, it's monster hunter the monster don't have to revolve around you. In my case the main problem was that I didn't have many good elemental HH available when I unlocked Alatreon and my sole option was Frostfang barioth HH, because I despise de ammount of grind it takes Safii jiiva, and had a personal grudge of not using anything from safii jiiva because all the videos i've seen with HH were using safii stuff/kulve weapons, So i did it by my own with a not minmaxed set focused on elemental which made the fight a ton of fun having to plan a strategy around my limitations. Then I have my personal takes that only translate to me as a person, but saying that it's a bad design it's a weird statement. There are some execution problems, but escathon is a good mechanic that forces you to be out of your comfort zone and think as a hunter adapting to the monster and the hunt. Rather than using whatever meta set you find in google. there's a reason of why there are many different weapons of choice, playstyles, armours that function for different purposes. I don't see anything wrong of having to adapt and play outside of the comfort builds and having to use specialized gear for a monster.
@@Exel3nce but thats how monster hunter is supposed to function? you're SUPPOSED to plan around a monster and exploit their weaknesses, thats the whole point of making builds in the first place
@@terribletyto thats is true, but not to this extend where you have to simply throw everything away that you got and start doing other shit before you even can try
@@Exel3nce with all due respect, you don't "throw everything away" in monster hunter though. its not like you make a build but never use it again because of one monster. you adapt, you overcome. that's the fundamental of this game. all these youtube videos talking ab endgame armor make it seem like there's only one way to play monster hunter when it simply isn't true. don't be afraid to experiment, that's the entire point of MH anyway! basically dont give up hope, even if it does feel hopeless.
While i'm not the biggest fan of EJ, my biggest gripe with Alatreon isn't with the fight, it's that i never managed to get a Safi Hunting Horn with an element and songlist i liked to fight it with.
Escaton judgement.... I dont mind it, however it’s very disruptive to the usual monster gimmick If iceborne alatreon didnt have escaton judgement I think it’s a 10/10 fight Edit: I main gunlance, greatsword, switchaxe I’ve gotten used to gunlance having horrible matchups So I said screw everything and use insect glaive I roleplayed FFXIV, full drachen layered, with layered gae bolg And used kinsect for the dps check (in less than 2 minutes, me with greatsword couldn’t do that consistently) The true FFXIV experience, walkin around casting whilst dodging AOE’s while listening to dope tunes
gunlance only had one bad matchup imo and that was 3u brachydios because slime blew you up on blocking another slime attack. that and his gosh darn tail that game was a menace. managing aggression and sticking too monsters is a staple issue of the weapon but never so far as to make matchups a nightmare. escaton isn't that disruptive imo it just forces a certain kit and if you really wana be effective a certain combo to maximize elemental dps on the various punish windows alatreon gives you. simply clutch the face into a wall and the horns break like a toothpick.
Honestly the thing I hated most about this guy was the arena you fought him in and the disgustingly tiny wallbang hitbox it gave you, while (to me) it almost being necessary to hit it to break the horn due to using a weapon without any vertical reach at all. The amount of times I had to restart because the attempt at a wallbang ended in him grinding his face against the wall 3 inches away from where a wallbang would've counted. In my first successful hunt I didn't even manage any horn breaks, but just went super aggressive and hit the dps check in its dragon form.
Here's my take: Alatreon is a GOOD fight with bad design decisions. Now, as a Black Dragon, he deserved to be insanely fecking hard, however I feel that DPS checks like Behemoth don't make the most sense in Monster Hunter, at least in the way Alatreon was done. You can argue that it challenges hunters to use unique strategies outside their comfort zones, which has been said by devs to be a main design decision of the series. Can't win with your normal strategy? Try something new! However with Iceborne's Alatreon, some weapons legitimately I don't feel like they can handle the Elemental DPS check to me. Mainly the heavier, usually RAW weapons (Great Sword, Hammer, Lance, Hunting Horn) at least for me. I NEED to use Charge Blade, Swax, Glaive, L.Bowgun or Bow, weapons I am either semi-decent with or just inexperienced in. Now the thing is, I can get by all of that, but my main issue is that Alatreon in Iceborne, doesn't FEEL like a Monster Hunter fight to me. Not because of the single zone or anything, but BECAUSE of his phases. It feels like an MMO fight to me MIXED with Monster Hunter, akin to the Behemoth crossover, as imo, when playing online which I like to do, multiplayer is the heart of MH to me, you need "roles". Two fire/ice dps for fire/ice phase, a dragon dps for the dragon phase (with Partbreaker), and a support in the form of a wide-range SNS (usually) who can still do elemental dps. Now this feel isn't exclusive to Alatreon to me, in fact I wasn't a huge fan of how DPS check's became the standard for iceborne's "big 3" as I call them. Safi, Alatreon AND Fatalis all have (or had in Safi's case since he was nerfed) semi-strict DPS checks. That's even without mentioning Ancient Leshen's jank. I do still LIKE the fights, but the DPS checks in conjunction with strict time limits (in Fatalis' case especially) are double edged swords to me. They add an extra layer of challenge to Monsters who SHOULD be a challenge, but in a way that I feel also hinders the fights. That's just my take though. It'll probably change down the line
Never minded the elem check part of it. I just hated how much running around is featured in the fight. Ala loves to hop back across the entire arena, and once enraged and flying I just feel SOL. Can't claw onto it, it reacts instantly with the charge attack to yeet you off. Can't hit it consistently up there. It just feels like it's wasting my time soon as that starts and it can take like 5minutes before it decides to finally come back down. Killed it a few times and never wanted to learn it properly, just hated the whole ordeal.
MMORPG mechanics for Behemoth makes sense, considering that was the entire point of the crossover. Forcing a classic monster to be remade with forced MMORPG mechanics in a Monster Hunter game is awful and has no place in Monster Hunter. If the devs wanted people to try elemental builds, they should probably make elemental more useful for weapons other than just Dualblades and Bow. (Not to mention you can just circumvent the entire mechanic by just using high raw and carting a few times solo.)
That's what makes it so heartbreaking that they had to ruin such an excellent monster with that bullshit nonsense EJ and dps check. I always have fun when fighting it, then it EJ happens cus I didn't meet the check with my 700+ elem weapon and I hate it all over again.
@@MezzoForte4bruh it’s so easy to meet the dps check if you can’t meet it you’re not good enough to fight him, i literally soloed him at mr 80 without any safi or kulve gear
@@Exel3nce no… just someone who doesn’t complain as soon as there is a hard monster in the game? Alatreon isn’t a hard monster, he has huge openings that are very punishable, how is that elitist?
I'm going be the one to say it wasn't a great fight. The mechanics felt too much like an MMO (wipe mechanic and dps check) and felt like player builds were limited around elemental damage just to force a bit of change. Sure the fight looks and sounds great but it was so frustrating to the point that it pushed me and a friend of mine away from the endgame of iceborn completely. Time will tell if sunbreak will or won't have these types of fights, but hopefully it has an endgame I can enjoy regardless.
Agreed… Alatreon was the fight that’s broken me more than any other. It sucks because it’s damage is high, forces you to play aggressive anyways, and spends a good portion of the fight dashing away from you in my experience.
My opinion for why this is the worst fight in the game is because nobody likes the judgement ability. It’s gimmicky and it ruins an otherwise interesting and fun boss fight. Having a dps check that is also a SPECIFIC damage type dps check is annoying. Other 1 shot abilities (for the most part) have a direct way to always be able to deal with it. Having the DPS check is just “you either did it or you didn’t, now you are guaranteed to die”. Next thing is this fight was made with the premise of making elemental weapons useful. This in my opinion is a slap in the face because they never buffed elemental damage and just made it REQUIRED for a single fight in the game, while not fixing the issue.
The problem was never Alatreon itself or really how most of the fight played out. It was just the bullshit arbitrary damage wall you had to meet during the fight in order to not immediately fucking die. From an unavoidable 1 shot area of effect explosion that would kill you and your whole squad if you didn't meet said damage wall. Whuch you could STILL wipe to even if you did meet it, if your team didn't know they had to spam jerky (which most people didn't even fucking carry until that point because there was no reason and therefore probably forgot it even existed.) As well as place a health booster next to everyone else's health boosters to out heal the tick damage of the attack. Which was an extremely unnecessary level of difficulty for a boss that was already pretty fucking tough to begin with as it was, but not to mention also never had said bullshit mechanic in previous games.
Besides the removal of player build choice and giving the players vague instructions on to combat the monster at the time... The greatest sin is the fact that these *"endgame"* black dragons are listed as a MR 24 quest and not somewhere in the 100s and up.
I'd argue that having to alter your build to adapt to each challenge, giving more incentive to play the game for various equipment and not bypassing the game with the same exact tactics in every situation is WHAT MAKES THE GAME FUN.
exactly, raw damage donkey builds kill the spirit of monster hunter. i really wish they'd be nerfed like they should be viable yes, but they should never outperform the element that the monster is weak to.
@@lion-ef1nv I mean, it's the heart of the series to grind monsters and adapt, it's not their fault you don't have the time. It's an endgame fight, not a great Jagras lmao
Why I hate Alatreon? I was forced to deal with EJ twice because breaking his horns twice is literally the only chances you have of not dying. Once those are gone, it is impossible to weaken him once he switches to an element you cant oppose.
There hasn’t been a single fight in this game that has challenged me like Alatreon has, so I can appreciate the struggle. Haven’t beat him yet but i’m getting closer
he is the best fight in the game. So fun, challenging, strategic and technical. Perfectly designed end game encounter. Some weapons were naturally gonna have a harder time but that applies to every fight. I used Great Sword, which has terrible elemental output, yet can still beat him comfortably with frostcraft. Alatreon embodies the principle of recognising the threat and preparing accordingly. It's not restrictive, it's considered design that tests a specific skill from the player. Every monster does this to an extent but Alatreon is the best at it.
My issue was that I wanted to go in blind... And I did... And all my builds were mostly raw hammer... And I had sold my kulve weapons... Long story short with my available play time I effectively had to spend like a month grinding to actually have a good build that allowed me to actually ya know... Attempt the fight, and that basically closed online since every time I tried it was only the hunters who couldn't even survive until the first judgment happened. I normally solo hunt anyway but with the trouble Alatrion was giving me online would have at least been nice to have as a viable option while learning him.
Missed Opportunity on talking about MHP3rd's Alatreon ! It's basically MHTri Alatreon but added a mechanic where it will not start flying AND switch to Thunder + Ice mode **if you do enough damage to his Head/Horns consistently ** . It makes the fight massively more enjoyable for almost all weapon types. Because of that it's probably the 2nd best version of Alatreon we've ever got, even when Gen/GU made improvements on the visuals of its elemental mode. It definitely inspired the Alatreon horn break mechanics we got in Iceborne.
The reason why people hate this is because this fight forces you to use light weapons (LS, SnS, IS, DB) and if you use heavy weapons (GS, Lance, Hammer, HH) like me, then you either have to switch to a weapon you don't like playing or do a ridiculous amount of damage before Escaton Judgement can even happen.
It really doesn't because they had modifiers on how much a weapon was contributing to the dps check. Dual blades contributed the least, and greatsword contributed the most. Which means all weapons were basically equal, other than gunlance which generally relies on shelling. In fact, with greatsword I could guarantee multiple topples before EJ but I couldn't guarantee it with Dual Blades despite one of the two being supposedly better for element
As a gunlance user Alatreon really frustraded me I pride myself with my defensive capabiletys, even beeing able to block Sharas super beam But beeing forced to take a hit no matter what I do and nothing I can do about is just really frustrating I'm still havent figuered out how to beat him, I just know using my beloved gunlance wont help me
Alatreon ain't bad at all. Man once I realized it was an ELEMENTAL fight. Took off the blast Longsword and forgot I had a chad KJAR ICE in my storage. Made the build and suited up getting that lovely stagger in sub 3 minutes to take his ass OUT
The meta losers just couldnt get over the fact they couldnt bring theyre stupid unfun meta builds into the fight and they had to actually play monster hunter
Indeed once you understand how it works, when you can hit, when you can't, the hunt becomes one of the best. For real I really enjoy hunting alatreon just for fun. For example, fatalis is also great, but I don't hunt him for him for fun as he's too stressful, and Safi is too tedious sometimes. So if I just want a casual hard black dragon hunt, I go for alatreon
Alatreon was the game ender for me. i had enjoyed playing through MHW with my gf and playing it with two other buddies, i think i was getting tired of the game what with some Safi grinding. So when this big boy shows up and we try multiple times to beat him - i just gave up and moved on. I'll come back for you Alatreon. Just you and me... one day >:I
My solution to the contraversy is to shift EJ's mechanics. The way it works is that it has a X damage threashhold. Should you deal X Elemental damage, escaton judgement will do nothing. Additionally, should you deal half of X damage, EJ does half its damage. These are hard limits. You must hit those thresholds or else you fall victim to Alatreon's cycle of EJ, death, wrong element (if you didnt swap elemental weapon), no damage, no reduction of EJ, death, repeat. The way I'd change it to be a bit more fair is that whatever damage you deal to Alatreon to affect EJ directly affects EJ, rather than a hard threshold. If you deal 30% of EJ, then 30% of EJ's damage would be taken away. Allowing an easier way of out healing without perfect darkside timing. Atm if you were to deal 30% of the threshold you'd not deal X÷2 thus causing death. There are a few ways this could alter the way EJ works. Affects duration of the attack, so you could outheal it in a short time via max potion. Affects the tick rate causing less dps to the player for the duration. Affects the damage each tic does for the same effect as above. Since it currently does the amount of damage delt per tic, it would fit to have this also apply to my approach so it'd make it easier to deal with. Rather than bottlenecking players with a *You must deal X damage or else* mechanic. All in all it'd make mixing your playstyle should you not have a *MAX elemental dps ultra build & knuckles* easier. Instead have a decent weapon and have a good healing supply to balance out your lack of elemental dps. *Everything else* about Alatreon's fight is perfect. Its just the forced playstyle that soured the experience as it runs counter to MH's design.
My main thing with alatreon is that he kind of goes against the idea that monster hunter allows you to choose whatever weapon you want to fight these gigantic behemoths and one of the big ones is greatsword which does amazing basic damage but has little to no elemental damage and it was designed that way but because it is that way it means that any greatsword main was screwed against alatreon
I know for a fact I have commented somewhere in this comment section before about how terrible Alatreon fight is. That was months ago, and right now I can consistently make Alatreon my bitch. From that perspective, I think the only viable gripe I had with fight was relative lack of feedback. What I mean by that is that even if I consistently weaken its Escaton Judgement and break its horns, I kept dying to everything other than Escaton. With my unsucessful fights lasting for nearly half an hour, I had no idea how close or far I was from victory. I think that part made me so frustrated and salty. Right now, all my other gripes were proven to be untrue. Alatreon isn't unfair. I can - and therefere everyone could - kill it with HBG in a manner developers intended instead of brute forcing. To answer whether Alareon was really that bad, I'd say no. It is pretty great fight actually, you just need to be really prepared for it, and even if you are, the fight is going to be challenging, so you need to learn the moveset, learn to not overcommit your attack, learn when to stay down instead getting up immediately etc. But a satisfaction from crushing seemingly invincible wall is really worth all the salt and anger
I'm starting to realize I'm ine of the only players who uses consistent elemental combat. I usually go for high defense and elemental resistances and then a weapon that can take advantage of the elemental weaknesses. Probably doesn't hurt that im a bowgun user.
I actually appreciate that they forced people to use element just because raw crit builds where so common and stale It's mostly a result of having so much leeway with skills whereas in older games you really had to push for every individual skill and couldn't max out agitator, crit eye, attack up, crit boost, weakness exploit, and any weapon specific skills I really think they should rework skills or create more unique ones to keep builds more diverse
I was really happy when Alatreon gave me a proper excuse to build an entirely new set. Breaking up the raging brachy meta even if it was just for one hunt was a breath of fresh air I didn't know how much I needed til I got it. He's one of my favorite fights in the game -- once you understand his quirks, he's easy enough to deal with, but still very punishing if you're sloppy. A good fight all around, in my opinion anyway. I'm a bit less proud to admit that it did bring out the git gudder in me when the review bombing began. But I'll never not think that wasn't a massive overreaction on the part of salty players. It's fine not to like the fight, but come on guys...
I like this fight because it makes the hunter change their build. At that time the R.brachy equipments were meta for a long period, each and every hunt were done by the same build(raw) over and over again. So it was nice to see some changes in build and strategy while hunting this BLACK DRAGON. This fight makes the hunter to play agressive plus alatreon attacks/moves are well telegraphed. I guess the main issue would be the weapon match up like GS, hammer.
As someone who mained Gunlance in Iceborne and mained Greatsword for all of base game World. I was pretty damned annoyed how my main weapon was literally useless and Greatsword was just a detrement to bring. Really didn't feel nice that i just completely couldn't bring my main weapons.
I've always loved Alatreon. He is, even after Iceborne, my favorite Black Dragon, and possibly my favorite Elder Dragon. But I really, REALLY disliked the mechanics of his fight in IB. I didn't like being told to bring friends to a 3-cart quest where you can all simultaneously be killed by a guaranteed O.H. kill, instantly failing. I didn't like trying to deal elemental damage while he kept jumping away from me or flying. I didn't like being forced to use certain weapons and builds in a game where you normally have the freedom to use whatever the heck you want. And above all, I hated that 5-minute timer that took me out of the game, that made me feel like I was playing something else entirely besides Monster Hunter, that made me sigh with relief rather than cheer with victory when I finally killed him. I didn't feel happy that I beat Alatreon, I was happy that the ordeal was over and I could go back to my just-for-fun, sub-optimal builds that were super enjoyable to play, but TERRIBLE at killing this one specific monster. Yeah, Capcom and the Monster Hunter team made Alatreon threatening again... but at what cost? Is this how endgame content is going to be in the future, with timers and countdowns that mess with your immersion and lead to certain failure unless you fulfill some condition, deal an arbitrary amount of damage? It worries me.
@@BrunoSantana16 No more like he's concerned that Endgame is slowly going the MMO route of "oh you didn't prep for this specifically? Well you ain't getting any sense of achievement".
Bruno Santana You smell like a World baby who never played the old games because they were too “clunky”, never realizing the brilliance of THEIR game mechanics in teaching the player.
Bro to this day I havent had a team with high enough elemental to kill a single one. Built for max element on all 3 that are good or decent and still nothing. Everyone tried different elements as well and still nothing. The closest I got to killing it was solo with a light bow gun.
IN MY OPINION Alatreon is not a bad fight. Sure some of the mechanics can be frustrating to deal with from time to time especially if you've going at it for a while and haven't quite gotten it down, however his kit is rather learnable than what it may seem on the surface. Learning a fight is probably a key thing to note on any monster in any part of monster hunter is knowing what to do when a monster do certain things. Not saying you have to just get good or anything but if you haven't figured out anything about a fight that yu've been stuck on then I personally think you have no excuse. On the other hand if you have learned the fight a bit but still aren't seeing results then it may have something to do with how you are coming at the fight itself. Maybe a change of playstyle IS needed to perform better at certain points but not all the time. In Monster Hunter all weapons are able to perform what they need to do when they need to and are able to fluctuate with however way the player tries to do stuff. Sometimes changing things up is necessary. I'm gonna stop there
i will say this. alatreon is amazing. if they wanted to make players use elements. then well you know.... MAKE ELEMENTS WORTH IT. dont force people to use them with a new mechanic. because you made it bad in the first place. no matter what. element should always do more damage. lets say if you have a weapon thats 100 raw. vs a weapon thats 80 raw 20 fire. you fight a fire weak monster. the fire weapon should always come out on top. WITH ALL WEAPONS not just stuff like dual blades. a max elemental crit element set should always be king in damage over a raw crit / crit boost set.
People who hate on the fight tend to incredibly overstate the elemental damage check. If you know what you are doing, you can survive the nova with a single elemental topple, which is pretty much always attainable with any weapon as long as you 1: use a weapon that has elemental damage to begin with, and 2: actually hit the monster enough. If anyone fails at either of those two requisites, then they deserve to cart every single time until they learn. Still baffles me that, between Alatreon and Fatalis, people unironically believe the former is somehow less "fair" than the second.
If you know what you’re doing and going solo, you don’t even need an elemental weapon. Just eat one or two carts from escatons and kill him before the third. Figuring out the fight took a while but I was happy in not being able to steam roll brand new content as soon as it dropped for once.
Looking back it was just because my build was really underleveled. I was a bow main so I switched to Sword and shield because I was having problems with the bow for some reason. So I had to go back and grind the optimal weapons for ice and fire sword and shield. Looking back once I figured things out it wasn't that bad. I was frustrated and I understood why people were too. Honestly I beat Altreon once and never went back lol. I died some many times that I had enough material to go craft all the other weapons and armor. Yeah I died that much.
Even many, many months later, Alatreon is still IMO harder to fight than Fatalis despite the latter being the "final" challenge... mostly because of how much of a DPS check he is.
Hard agreed; and this is coming from a guy who wants to solo these fights. Alatreon WITHOUT Judgement would probably be an 'easier' fight, although the scalar would be low since if he wasn't pretty difficulty he wouldn't be a proper Black Dragon, but with the mechanics it becomes a lot more difficult than Fatalis by virtue of everything you need to keep track of, whereas with Fatalis its just you, the arena and a very angry dragon.
My only problem with alatreon is the fact that if you know not what to do, you simply can't beat him. It never states how much ele damage is needed or anything else and seeing as it's a very easy fight to get into because all you need to do is survive a weakened safi fight. It doesn't prepare a player for one of the hardest fights in the series. But that is probably a good thing because there is no B's in the fight. Personally I would like it more if alatreon was always grounded or that his aerial attacks werent as often because it breaks the flow of the fight too much and really showed why bow or gun is the best weapon in the game. Like seriously you expect me to do enough dmg in 8 minutes when 4 of those minutes were him flying. I like altreon, he shows the greatness of MHW but also it's heavy handed flaws
Lol there was a time in monster hunter world when complained that the game was too easy. And as soon as master rank shows up they wanna complain that the late game monsters were too hard.
It makes me so angery how one of the last fights in the post post game of the DLC to my long ass game wants me to use elemental weapons. It takes away all my freedom and the ability to use my huge arsenal of weapons (1 raw LS). Jokes aside, I love Alatreon, it's probably my most favorite fight in all of MH and i like how Fatty and Ala actually require some effort for once. I also think it's funny how most people that complain about how he takes away your weapon freedom are the same people that only use raw weapons.
For me its just escalon judgement thats it maybe if it was change so instead of oneshoting you he would imbue himself in dragon element and the next element in line as well as increased damage that way it would feel less artificial
Alatreon stung really bad for me when i first fought it because my mains were gunlance and lance, with greatsword, hammer, and sticky/spread hbg as secondary weapons, 4 of which are not good at dealing elemental, lance is ok at dealing elemental, I just wasn't good enough with it to actually stay on the monster to deal enough of it out. The fact that I was using 35% of the entire games weapon roster, and all of which were not good at this fight specifically, I just decided to skip on it. About 6 months later, a while after I had beaten fatalis and gotten some fun builds going, I was playing around with all sorts of other weapons, and I decided to just make some dual blades with the highest possible ice damage I could get given the resources I had at the time. It took a couple of tries to get reacquainted with the fight, but I was getting elemental topples everytime, sometimes even twice in one ESJ rotation, and within that same day it was dead. That shit is why I still really dislike this fight, the game told me "no, you have to play something that does good elemental, unless you want a face full of ESJ", like its completely doable with all the weapons I was playing, but waaaaay easier with DB. I think its good for monsters to have different weapon matchups, I think that it incentives variety and broadening horizons, its why I played 5 different weapons in the first place, but the difference is normally a few minutes and some saved potions for later, not a failed quest.
Actually, you're wrong. They actually had modifiers based on the weapon you were using so that all weapons were more or less equal for the elemental dps check. In fact, I found multiple topples before judgment easier with greatsword then with dual blades
Alatreon was my nemesis for a while, but my manner of fighting it solo eventually became rocking Namielle Gamma + Dragon Kjarr dual blades, while a touch slow, being able to enjoy and learn the full extent of the moveset does let me get the topple in midway trough the Dragon Active state. Been my solo fighting for it ever since with how punishing getting Dragonblighted is in this iteration.
the big problem with MHW is the power creep. they boosted the monster so much that people compelling to make stronger and stronger raw set to deal with them. yet Alatreon is their "attempted" to "force" the player to consider elemental build. when you have to "force" the player to do something, they will not like to do it. they should have "reward" the player for using elemental weapon for the fight instead of "if you dont do elemental damage, you die" approach. it simply bad game design. player never want to be forced into making a decision. they can make their own decision of using elemental to improve their gameplay, but forcing it on them will simply not work. they start off making raw weapon massively out class elemental weapon, then do a 180 and make player use elemental weapon for one specific monster. that make player confused. if they want player to use elemental weapon, they should have make it stronger than raw weapon to begin with. like each monster supposed to be weak to a different element, it is much harder to build an elemental build than a raw build, it more costly to make an elemental build, then why is it not better than raw build? simply because MHW have a very bad elemental balance. many monster are of the same element, while some element only have 1 or 2 monster. it make some element build and some element type totally useless. why bother spending resource in making element build that you never gonna use? why dont you just make a raw build that is good for everything?
To this day, I still can’t beat it in the story mode. I’ve tried everything I can think of. I get close, but he just flies and charges me endlessly, and hitting with aoe in between. I might try again eventually, but I quit nearly a year ago because of this fight.
As someone who really really struggled with the fight for almost 3 years, what I was really looking for was a hard number recommendation. I was using the velkhana insect glaive and I had about 400 elemental damage and every attempt it just didn't come close. I eventually switched to the Frost fang barioth weapon capping out at about 600 and beat the guy in almost 20 minutes. There's plenty to like about the fight and to be perfectly honest, it is easily one of the most diverse and challenging in terms of movesets and spacing. But the fact that the game is so cryptic with what it wants you to do means that players who are not quite as savvy or maybe aren't having as easy. A time with his general moves are really left up a creek without a paddle.
Alatreon was amazing. The DPS check was nerve racking and it forced you to play aggressively. I learned to love frostcraft GS because of it. What's the point of putting in a black dragon if he's gonna be a push over.
I think another thing to take into consideration besides what weapon is used, is how you play. Solo the dps check isnt all too punishing. But when ramped up into online play, with people who may now know how to build for elemental damage (MH doesnt do a great job reinforcing the info after the initial "Hey its a thing!"). It makes the dps check feel like something you cant count on beating cuz, like you said, if a new player is running their raw dmg build and refusing to switch off because every other fight says "you can ignore elemental dmg" it can get really annoying getting wiped at the same move time and time again when all 4 carts get used in a full lobby
In short no. He's my favorite. No joke. Anyone who dislikes alatreon is just not prepped well enough. Also player choice isn't taken. You can run any weapon type. There's really no bad weapons in mh.
I'm late, but back in world I was a black sheep building for Sleep/Exhaust/KO on a hunting horn. I kept the monster on the floor, but Alatrion didn't work with that build. I could keep it on the grond for others but the lack of element damage we could never survive the judgement. I luckily main the glaive too so we still where able to take it down without too much change.
Between the game expecting me to go through the 7 layers of rng hell for a good elemental weapon and the dps check i cant beat cuz Alatreon spends 60% of the fight in the air... Had no fun learning the fight so i quit after wipe 3.. Also whoever thought giving him multiple elements but no way to switch gear without carting deserves to step on a lego
To be fair, the literal 5 first times i tried it he did hit me with something in the first 5 seconds, i waited for him to miss an attack heal get hit again and die, in like 30 seconds
Honestly Alatreon is awesome. I loved the fight. Almudron though... I know every attack it puts out and how to dodge them but the shit hitboxes on its tail still hit incredibly often and its annoying.
Yes. Even though ala was my favorite fight in tri, adding a one shot move is dumb. Capcom and do better, I have seen them do better, just using a one shot to make a monster harder is dumb. That is my only real complaint because its such a hard and fun fight, just the one shot move sucks.
What I enjoyed about Alatreon and Fatalis was that they were fights you had to figure out why certain things just killed you. Even Fatalis has it's horn thing, where it's close to impossible to survive if you don't break the horn before last phase, or early on in the last phase. Both of them made me do close to 9hours of repeated failures of trying different things. And the one kill we finally got down was actually to just tank Escaton Judgement, and this was with a random group where we just took all the jerky and friendship we could muster and managed to get a W. It was fun trying to solve the mystery and we kind of realized very early on that element was a big factor anyhow. The problem mainly was that people didn't have elemental builds ready and it all started to show on community posts that it's somehow a bad system, which it is not. Atleast not as bad as some people made it out to be.
looking back on icebornes alatreon and having actually fought him in gen u now, the absolute worst decision the dev's did with this fight was the MR rank requirement. why the eff is it at 24??? everyone, and I mean everyone who understands what is difficulty is, looks at another player and sees a rank of 24 knows full well they are 100% NOT ready for a 1st class threat black dragon. I was a little upset at the fight too at first but that was me being an absolute child venting my frustrations and too prideful to look up a guide (and I was above 120 and maining bow by that point so could you imagine the upset a below 50 rank player is gonna have) It's honestly no wonder there were soooooo many people wanting him nerfed or removed....the players who haven't even fought ruiner nergie outside of story are upset they cant beat a monster that is in a whole another threat level. once people got better at the game and started to understand the game more and actually make more builds with a different purpose other than "gotta them dps", alatreon wasn't as nearly as bad. and capcom did actually give us a nerfed alatreon...as a requirement for fighting fatalis. its not like a rank 24 was gonna beat alatreon anyways. they were gonna need to get carried and well the player base in monster hunter is VERY against low rank players when it comes to these end game fights. world/iceborne from what I can tell is WAAYY nicer then gen u was. want to do a deviant lvl 14 and 15 for your weapon upgrades? hope u got friends irl that can carry cause most of the time anything below a 50 rank and they leave as soon as they pop in (if they pop in at all). ps - god bless you 999s on gen u...u are absolute saviors
Alatreon was my fav fight in the game. Took 8 hours for me to finally get a kill, but after you learn moveset and the judgement mechanic was worked out, it wasn't much of an ordeal.
i mostly solo'd alatreon since most randoms are just unga bunga blast weapons. alot of people complained about the amount of elemental damage needed for the checks, meanwhile i just breezed through the fights with critdraw, element up velk armor with elemental safi gs(combination of element up and sharpness up).
This fight was amongst my favorites in world to duo. My friend usually builds many sets so he didn't mind and I like raw efficiency so we went fire/ice and Dragon respectively depending on the quest starting element and I also like the HH so I gave out extra elemental buffs. I just swapped a few skills since I know I didn't need too much raw damage for more element and after a dozen tries we got the hang of it and farmed out all of it's gear. Now I'm rocking an alatreon set with 2k dragon damage and the ability to buff others too to make it easier. We've even helped out people who had 0 elemental damage. I only wished that elemental builds could outdamage Crit/raw builds due to hitting a monsters weakness (3 star)but since Crit was the most optimal for damage people did not like change or making a new set for what worked in a majority of fights.
I think they should have scrapped the dps check and focused on the elements. Remove the dps check, make Alatreon straight up immune to raw and only take elemental damage, change escaton judgement to do all elemental types of damage, if the players don't break alatreon's horns and don't have 20 resist in a damage type they receive a special version of each elemental blight they don't resist that can't be removed or have its duration shortened (5 minutes). BAM! Now Alatreon is all about the elements and his armor that has decent elemental resists can benefit even elemental resistance can play a more important role in the fight and make Alatreon's set bonus very valuable in fighting him. The focus is more on the elements now and less on an artificial dps check, even breaking the horns feels more like a bonus.
I think the issue with this fight is that the main mechanic doesn't fit monster hunter. DPS checks, undodgeable nukes, specific gear requirements... that's stuff you'd have in an MMO raid. Like, Safi, Fatalis and Behemoth had simular nukes but the difference was that you didn't have to facetank them, their mechanic was all about avoiding them altogether. Stand in the right spot, read the tells, make sure your cover isn't destroyed prematurely and you'll be fine. A lot of Monster Hunter players have a general idea that the only reason why you'd ever get hurt or faint should be because you messed up and got yourself hit, either failing to read the monster or failing to respond to a move properly. Alatreon isn't about that. Even when you weaken him, the damage amount you suffer is still technically enough to kill you, it's just dealt so slowly that you have a chance of outhealing the damage. You cannot avoid that damage. There's no safety rocks to hide behind, no emergency gate to activate, no gesture that provides ivulnerability if you time it perfectly. You just take a fuckton of damage, guaranteed. I think to a lot of players, particularily those coming from previous generations of the franchise, that's simply not how a fight should work. The fact that the only way to make the attack survivable is to deal elemental damage and if you mess up a part break at the right time, you are locked out of dealing elemental damage entirely is just adding insult to injury.
I think players would have less of an issue with it if breaking the horns locked Alatreon from swapping into the opposite elemental form, period. But it only really skips a phase and if you don't dish out enough damage to kill Alatreon before he'd swap into that phase in the next rotation, that's already a guaranteed faint. Alternatively, if they let you retreat to camp whenever you want so that you could swap to a different weapon if need be, that'd work as well. But they've locked players into a very specific way this quest has to be played and that just eliminates player choice. Certain weapons either rely on non-elemental attacks or have a hard time actually breaking the horns. It also forces people who main slow weapons to craft an elemental build specifically for that purpose, as elemental damage is usually quite irrelevant on weapons such as GS and Hammer. Personally, I also think it actively diminishes the monster. You aren't fighting Alatreon, you are fighting the dps check.
On a side note: It's also entirely unintuitive that Escaton Judgement doesn't relate to Elderseal. Like, MHW was the one game to explicitly have a mechanic based around weakening elder dragons with dragon weapons and then they added a boss entirely built around a weakening mechanic that doesn't have anything to do with Elderseal.
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
The only thing that was actually bad about his fight is that we severely underestimated how much elemental damage was truly required for the fight. As soon as we got the elemental part down it was plain and simple afterwards.
I think he is still very strong. Heck i think he was stronger than Anything in dark souls 3 even after you Break his Elemental check.
It's just that most people have finally learned all his movesets by the time you lower your pride to use an Elemental weapon instead of the usual META.
thats why you feel he become so much simpler.
@@prophetmuhammad3890 Oh no i completely agree with him still being hard even with max elemental damage. And unlike some people still today i went in knowing what to use. Unfortunately even what a year and a half, people still use freaking raging brachydios weapons and it hurts very badly.
@@Mega-Munch Alatreon taught us to not rely on Blast Weapons...
and it worked on me; I outright stopped using Blast Weapons for the rest of Iceborne!
I do agree that its what the majority of us probably started with, but i still feel aswell that some weapons are just having bad matchup issues cause of the winning condition for it. And I can see people might find it discouraging when their weapon regardless of builds having to work far harder than others and it still doesnt come close. They might find it as a chore after few first runs of farming his mats.
I honestly think Alatreon would’ve been hated less if the MH Team had flipped the release of Raging Brachy with Frostfang, it would’ve given people access to strong Ice weapons to counter the fire phase instead of dropping a very strong Blast monster who gave essentially useless weapons for the Alatreon fight. If people had used Frostfang there’d be no issues.
I honestly think that Alatreon (in retrospect) was mechanically fine and a nice challenge, it's just that the mechanics around Escaton Judgement and a few other important things weren't explained nearly well enough.
We were told "Bring elemental weapons". What we weren't told is that certain elements are totally useless. We weren't told the elements that could be useful are entirely situational. We weren't told that there was a high chance all of us going in for the first time were going to bring the wrong element and couldn't switch without dying.
We were told "Deal elemental damage to weaken its ultimate attack". What we weren't told was that the attack was an outright, guaranteed, map-spanning one-shot that would completely end a four player hunt in an instant without *ANY* chance for recourse if you didn't manage the DPS check. What we weren't told was that we also had to juggle special horn break mechanics on top of that, at risk of the next elemental check being rendered impossible. What we weren't told was that Alatreon would be in the air for half the fight, making the window for most weapons to get that vital elemental damage in *really* tight.
We were told "You can't use farcasters in the final area". What we weren't told was that the 'final area' was the *ONLY* area, meaning you weren't allowed to fix any mistake related to the above points without dying.
Combine how little we were told with how collectively complex Alatreon's mechanics were compared to literally everything else in the game up to that point, and it's no wonder that Alatreon had such a piss-poor reception when he first dropped. Really doesn't help that the entire meta before that was blast weapons, and people had mostly been ignoring elemental stuff for months, if not longer. Again, Alatreon wasn't bad in and of itself, but it needed either a more in-depth explanation or a stronger precedent for any of what it was doing beforehand.
Then you have Fatalis, which was proof that you can have an incredibly dangerous monster in that game without being overtly complex or vague about it. All they really tell you is "break the head", and that's all you need to know beyond basic Hunter skills you already learned up to that point, and it still ended up being a harder fight than Alatreon. Hell, you theoretically don't even *need* to break Fatalis' horns if you can evade his stage 3 attacks well enough, whereas the Alatreon elemental check is mandatory if you don't want to cart. Fatalis succeeded at every point where Alatreon failed, and thus had a much better reception. In fact, I'd argue that Iceborne's Fatalis should be the gold standard for hyper difficult fights in Monster Hunter moving forward, there isn't an ounce of bad game design in that fight outside of MAYBE a couple hitboxes.
Well, the devs didn't really want to spoil the fight.
You were told that some elements didnt do any damage, but only when you used it. We and the NPCs knew NOTHING about this monster. Its natural that they wouldn't tell us. All they really knew were stuff from legends.
Besides, if they told us EVERYTHING, people would complain about handholding. They made this one into a unique puzzle that you had to solve and I think that's beautiful.
@@renno2679 I agree, to an extent. There's a fine line between having a challenging thing you have to figure out and having a slew of unexplained mechanics that heavily punish you for not immediately getting just one of them. Every other monster in the game with special mechanics both does a better job explaining/demonstrating them before its too late and generally has less of said mechanics that you have to figure out all at once.
Not to mention, in the grand scheme of things, it's better to risk explaining a set of mechanics a bit more than you should than it is to throw players into the deep end with only an extremely vague and arguably misleading idea of how to swim. They didn't have to explain every part that they missed, only a couple more points probably could've made Alatreon a whole lot less jarring on the first attempts.
The idea that in-universe we wouldn't know this stuff also only really gets you so far once it causes the initial gameplay experience to suffer for it. This brings me back to Fatalis, since he is a monster that we lore-wise knew even less about going into the battle, was more difficult than Alatreon by a fair margin, and they still did a better job explaining while keeping a lot hidden. One of the key ways it does this is that it doesn't wait until you are already far past fixing your mistakes (without simply abandoning the quest) to tell you that you're doing something wrong, which is one of the things that made Alatreon really frustrating at first. Fatalis gave you every opportunity to fix any shortcoming, meaning it was on you whether or not you could get through it, whereas Alatreon was just like "Oh, you didn't bring the right element, and you're in a team of four, so you can go fuck yourself" and made that attempt a guaranteed failure.
@@manzac112 theres a difference between "spoiling a fight" and leaving out crucial information to the success of a mission that can only be figured out by a combination of throwing your body @ the monster and values/numerics you literally can not access in game.
@@BlueBannette Well, the Monster Hunter endgame isn't really the type of that is going to hold out your hand and give you a lot of information. Plus, I'm okay with the devs doing something like this for once because it's a fun and challenging right. I should count my blessings lucky as a dual blades main. Not to mention, that there are many more hunters that will help you than just outright complaining on Reddit about an ENDGAME BLACK DRAGON. Another main problem was that it was Master Rank 24 and not an MR 80-90 quest.
"You don't like him because you can't beat his gimmick. I don't like him because I'm bad at the game. We are not the same."
I really loved Alatreons move set and fight, he's fight has a really nice flow to it, but I understand the debate and dislike around his Judgment move.
"It restricts your playstyle so much!" *Looks at your uber-meta crit raw/blast masters-touch build.* "Uh huh, yeah, creativity limited so much."
I appreciate this fight. It's the devs presenting a problem to the players that they then have to solve. Raw builds, blast builds and shield/spread HBG's were all anyone played online. The mechanics that just shredded Temporal/Rocksteady also removed a huge safety net. The devs said here's a hard endgame fight with great weapons and armor as a reward go figure it out. You have to sit and actually learn the fight, the patterns, the animation, the weaknesses and prepare. But once you learn it, you're unstoppable. That's like the essence of the series in a nutshell. I'm glad that wasn't lost.
I totally agree. My first kill on Alatreon was me and 3 other random hunters figuring out the fight blind, and after a few attempts we had pretty much solved the mechanic, it was just up to our skill from then on. We strapped on our best Ice builds, and that kill was the second most satisfying hunt I've ever completed (the first being Fatalis ofc)
Killed it with a fire and ice kinsect only not even my weapon. Lol
EXACTLY. I loved this fight. I absolutely sucked ass at it at first because we knew nothing about it. But now I can slay it pretty easily.
I didn't like the elemental checks but I also had more fun with this monster than any other in the series, so I can't hate Capcom and this was also free dlc.
Yeah the very complex "use elemental weapon" problem.
Truly a challenge for only the smartest of minds.
i think alatreon is an amazing monster and an amazing fight, but i despise escaton judgement. it's not really the fact that it's a dps check; i just hate the fact that it's literally 100% impossible to avoid no matter how good you are. you can go completely untouched throughout the entire fight but escanton will FORCE you to take damage and FORCE you to heal. i think it goes against the entire point of a combat system that rewards you for learning telegraphs and avoiding attacks.
its not 100% impossible to avoid it, you can kill him before he does his first escaton. You can check most speedruns with any weapon and they do that, they dont even bother building elemental damage and go full raw instead
@@ronoronoronorono speedrunners do not represent the average player. for the average player, they won't be avoiding escaton
@@cynicalgold9992 I agree, but you said its impossible
@@ronoronoronorono because it is for the average player
@@ronoronoronorono tbh factoring in speedrunners is kinda pointless because the grinded the game so much to get specific times. Of course they can kill Alatreon in less than 5 mins but behind that one specific attempt they had to endure countless EJ.
I think it is an amazing fight but has the downside of forcing the players hand. The fight tries to make it that you need to solve the problem of Escaton but only gives one solution and it just rubbed people the wrong way.
"Any difficult challenge will feel unfair until you learn how to beat it." - CoreA Gaming
Say that to anyone playing Gunlance/Greatsword lmao.
@@darkspine133 got many great solo GS runs against Alatreon. Haven't tried GL, but hey, it's not so bad having to play different weapons.
@@rerdak4334 It's definently possible with GS, especially if you're a good player and are doing it solo.
It was possible with Gunlance as well but you'd have to play melee only. And imo atleast you might as well play something else then.
Glad to hear you chadded on him with GS tho!
@@rerdak4334 It's possible to do GL against him, but unless you're that determined to fight him with it or you're a speedrunner you won't be able to go past the bad matchup.
Sums up the issue with MH I've been seeing since FU. The playerbase will inevitably rise up the difficulty, which clouds their judgement even if some fight have glaring issues like Alatreon.
As a long time MH player my own opinion is that W:I Alatreon was implemented badly for me.
1. The fight by itself, without factoring in Escaton Judgment mechanic, is fun for me. But you can tell they did design Alatreon to be fought with a group of people. Old school Alatreon's attacks and speed were very slow, but all its attacks had long, wide reach and area. W:I has that with a major speed boost and few intervals between attacks that leave it open before quickly moving onto its next attack.
This leaves more defensive style players at a disadvantage compared to aggressive players. It also tells me that the intended strategy is while its focused on attacking one of your party members it was then your and others chance to at least then to get a few meaty hits in before Alatreon switched to you or another party member. Granted this maybe done to balance it out for how long it stays down when a horn is broken or is power sealed.
2. They released it before Frostfang Barioth. Frostfang's weapons would have at least been really useful in quests when Alatreon starts in Fire active mode (especially its Special Assigmnent quest) if you didn't have access to Safi or Kulve weapons because they aren't available to you or if you couldn't be bothered to grind for them. Kulve Taroth for the RNG and Safi for its materials.
3. It is ultimately unbalanced that certain weapons can clearly abuse the Elemental DPS check and is ironic that many of the fastest speedruns against it were done with Blast or Raw weapons.
4. MR 24 was too low of a requirement. They should have at least made it MR50 then you know that most of players by then would have spent some time in the Guiding Lands and would have had materials to augment their equipment. The English language Twitter account when Alatreon released gave the advice to use 4 pieces of Silver Rath armour for the True Elemental Crit set bonus, however, you had to be at least MR70 to do Silver Rath quests in any capacity. This made more than few people be peeved.
1. What? Designed for a party? I went back to world one evening/night, had a couple of beer and was feeling them pretty good. And even after not playing that game for a few months i managed to kill him solo. Yes, with dual blades, but like i said, i was drunk.
2.That point is very... That is not even a part of an argument. The first runs i went with Beotodus DB? It would have worked if i just had more experience with DB´s. We reached the DPS check pretty every time.
3. It was well known that the light weapons are way better in terms of elemental damage and the heavy ones are for raw damage. So the deal always was: motion value for elemental damage. And like you said: It is possible to kill it with raw really fast. So whats the point here?
4. Well .. Yeah. If you cart VERY easy .. Go back, get better gear, try again. Isn´t that what MH is about? I can´t tell how many tries I had on AT Velkhana. And i had to go back several times to change my set just to be pretty balanced between damage and utility.
@@gnihi1
1. Let's not forget that a major selling about MH is the multiplayer. With W:I arguably having the best online play capability of the main line MH games its stands to reason they would plan around making the stronger end game monsters a bit more focused around multiplayer. With them figuring that most players will rather try and tackle it together with other players. Alatreon is not like Safi or Behemoth exactly and it is quite possible to do it solo reliably.
I have done it several times as well, but like I said with its higher speed and less openings compared to its old self, more defensive players or not as aggressive players are at a disadvantage as they won't get in as much damage in. And so they don't reach the DPS check or they don't kill it in time after the 2nd horn break basically resigning them to automatic failure.
I think the dev team planned it so that the general good tactic against Alatreon would be have a balanced team of the heavy and light, fast hitting weapons. The light quick weapon users with their better elemental power can weave in and out between attacks to seal Alatreon's power easily, then when it falls over after after a power seal or horn break the heavy hitting weapons can have the perfect chance to land their hardest hitting attacks (which are slow) for the extra HP damage.
It's the same with Fatalis too essentially. You can do Fatalis solo as well, but you can tell they planned its fight so people could tackle it with a balanced team of ranged and melee weapon users. Ranged weapons users can break the wings easily and readily attack its chest preventing it from flying and making it go on all fours more often so that melee users will have an easier time hitting the head. As they can break its horns more easily with their weapons. That is also likely why they gave Excitable Fiver (Aiden) a Heavy Bowgun in the Special Assigmnent quest knowing that certain melee weapons were some of the most popular weapons used by players to maybe hint at the melee and range team up.
2. I will concur you are somewhat right on that point and that its more of a "quality of life" issue. But Frostfang coming after Alatreon kind left its own presence a bit underwhelming and you can not deny its weapons would be ideal against a Fire mode starting Alatreon having a good balance of strength and elemental power. Because the irony is that they geared players to be as prepared for Alatreon. They rotated Safi and MR Kulve whose weapons are strongest elemental weapons in W:I. And even gave Level 4 elemental attack decos a week before Alatreon release as log in bonuses. Having Frostfang's weapons as an option to tackle Alatreon would have only been beneficial.
3. My point is they made elemental DPS kind of moot and be an annoying or trivial mechanic rather than one that was really engaging and fun.
4. Yes that is a point of MH, but MH also works well to sort of guides you as the game gets harder and you take more dangerous monsters. Alatreon is a bit outlier since it was introduced as DLC so it broke the pattern a bit as you would usually fight something like it at the end of a MH game. A MR 50 barrier would suffice in order for players to get and augment their gear so that they wouldn't at least go in with tissue paper defence and would get some decos as well. Essentially more casual and newer players were led to a slaughter and much of the misunderstanding that took place could have been avoided
Considering that people have solo killed alatreon in under 4 mins with hbg and around 4:15 with melee. I think he was fine to fight solo
@@Castigar48 Like I said W:I Alatreon is not impossible to solo and it can readily be done by players who know what they are doing. It's just how it attacks and its new attack speed is what makes me think they planned Alatreon to be a bit more focused around multiplayer with them figuring that most of the player base will rather tackle it in a group.
That the intended strategy was maybe to have players with faster hitting weapons to weave in and out of the wide AOE attacks and that when it gets power sealed the opportunity presents itself for everyone to land their longest combos or slowest but strongest attacks.
The same applies for W:I Fatalis. It can be done solo as well, but you can tell they intended to make Fatalis to be tackled with a balanced group of gunners and melee users. Gunners can attack the wings and chest effectively making Fatalis' head more accessible for Blademasters so that they can break its horns.
@@dianslabbert504 god what a good fight
I have a love hate relationship with alatreon, I think he's really cool and I really have no problem fighting him, until I for some reason get to the point where I've broken both of his horns, consistently beat the damage checks and he's somehow not dead yet and now I'm screwed bc I can't deal any more elem damage
That's why I always fight him with dragon element
He has 1 or 2 weakness stars to it when It's on fire or ice state but he has 3 (or 2 I can,t remember) when on dragon. So when I break the horns he is always on dragon and I can deal damage for the rest of the fight
Only problem is that I deal less elemental damage early in the fight
just use kjarr ice/fire with full safi with as much crit you can bring, you'll at least get 2 topple per judgement
That means you were not dealing enough damage and the fight was prolonged as a result. Simple as that.
Yeah you gotta get the elemental topple as well as the horn breaks
@@_ariaofthesoul_ dragon is about 7x worse for the dps check than using the right element (counting the dragon phase)
The only REAL problem with Alatreon is the Escaton, too punishing if your team doesn't deal enough elemental damage.
Ironically I prefer hunt it solo. For me it's more manageable.
It also doesn't help that elemental is so screwed up in World
Both of you are wrong. Online is even easier to hunt Alatreon. Only way to fail is if you get paired up with bad players, which will happen at least twice a day.
Best fight in the game besides escaton
@@Gayhan- alatreon and fatalis are monsters I have to do solo cause people will triple cart. I get 15 minute hunts solo anyway for Alatreon so I don't care. But I beat fatalis once, with one other person any more was a failure. even post fatalis couldn't get a single alatreon win because people would kart before judgement and we also wouldn't deal enough to stop him. for reference, solo I easily get 2 elemental stuns and I'm using hunting horn meaning my team were also getting support buffs to further help us not die and hit harder.
@@tbc1880 yea, sometimes the randoms were trash, I'd leave a Alatreon SOS if I saw that the host was running fatalis or raging brachy gear.
I mained Great Sword in Iceborne, which has little to no elemental damage and Alatreon is still very much doable if you change your build to elemental attack. People at the time were just following youtube META videos like idiots and then complained because you can't complete the game with only 1 build.
Like, what's the point of playing Monster Hunter if you only use one build
I’ve never understood the hate for Iceborne’s Alatreon. There have ALWAYS been one-shot attacks you need to deal with properly, it’s just that dealing with them was relegated to Superman dives, blocking, etc. Alatreon is just the more interesting version of that, awarding aggressive play and proper preparation with an easier hunt and faster kill. And the biggest thing I don’t get is that a lot of the complaints come from the same people who say World was devoid of pre-hunt preparation. For Alatreon, you had to build for one element specifically, bring Astera jerky, and above all, you couldn’t restock. It’s THE most prep-heavy fight in the game, and yet a lot of the older hunters immediately turned their backs on him because “MMO mechanics don’t belong in Monster Hunter” I guess, despite weapon classes, combos, overdetailed armor and weapons, etc all being major components of MMO’s. That’s not even to mention his amazing move pool and hitboxes, Alatreon’s one of the most fair and intense fight in the series, and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like his design that much/hates his old world hunt for how boring it is.
Replying having completely finished the video, the gunlance is actually a fair criticism I’ll admit. I’ve been playing exclusively with the ICE mod which changes elemental values recently, hence my ignorance, sorry about that. Even if EVERY monster has easier and harder matchups depending on your weapon, Alatreon made Gunlancers almost completely useless, even more so without using slap Lance. This is still a pretty minor issue though, as he is not unkillable for a solo GL player, in a similar vein to Gogmazios with Hunting Horn. Plus, every other weapon has a decent to great contribution to add, even GS has the amazing frostcraft/crit element set of Velkhana. Overall still a 10/10 fight in my book, something I eagerly look forward to doing every time I come back to World.
I find his fight very fun aswell. I use him as a warm-up everytime I feel myself being rusty
The only thing I disliked about this Alatreon and one of the things I think should have been done away with or at least done different is the fact that regardless of if you are successful or not stopping the big Super Nova you will STILL take Damage. I'm all for stopping or avoiding One Hit Kills it's the fact that it still damages you either way that annoyed me personally.
@@lunarpurge8494 Hmm I guess I could see that being a personal issue, but I don't mind it after only one mitigation. Maybe after two or three you should be immune? Or if you break a horn?
what it was, was that in everyone's head, raw was the most optimal offensive option. They slept on the Safi gear, slept on the Kjarr Weapons, all those tools capcom gave us because they were outperformed by raw damage and blast weapons that technically did more damage.
And they were caught offguard without thinking about this. they were set in their ways to just bring the high damage generalist sets, whereas anyone that was actually paying attention to the tools they were receiving was ready to tackle it. Hell, I was experimenting with fire options for AT Nami.
You left out the low player rank for entry to the fight. Which had people going in with non-meta sets because they didn't have access to them yet.
Yeah that was really weird, I feel bad for all the young hunters coming across their first alatreon fight and getting absolutely destroyed cause they didn’t have the right equipment to beat him.
Nah you can beat him with MR24 equipment
you can actually definitely beat alatreon without augmented gear and mr 24 equipment. its just a skill check at that point. tons of non-speedrunners and casuals on reddit can do it with some time put into it.
I do think that was an issue. More than anything, the low experience level of those players made the fight seem impossible. It should be a MR100 fight.
@@reckyourself6948 with MR100 equipment you outright demolish him though on MR24 you have the necessary tools to deal with him
Difficulty shouldn't be brought into the argument since it is an subjective matter after all. Most people dislikes Alatreon because they don't understand the mechanic and got steamrolled. The best argument I've seen is the one mentioning Elemental DPS check limiting certain playstyles, which is true. I've only tried Alatreon solo with DB, CB, LS, GS, HH, Bow and LBG so I can at least assure that these mains shouldn't have any problem dealing with Judgement. Gunlace users that mained shelling is probably the biggest victim of Alatreon's design choice.
Well, Gunlance is the least liked weapon by capcom, so thats not a suprise. But for real: The Gunlance without shelling is pretty much useless. The damage is to low and even with frost craft it was laughable. On top of that, the moving speed is slow as well. Speaking of the real hits, not the poking.
@@gnihi1 I mean, they eventually did justice by introducing fatalis weapons, and his Gunlance has literally the highest raw number among all weapons in iceborne. That said, it's not that the devs hate Gunlance but they're just bad at designing its overall mechanic.
@@zionpark0803 It doesn´t help much to add one weapon. First of all: Not everyone had beaten Fatalis. I never did, so i hadn´t the chance to craft it. Second, it has normal shelling, but what if that is absolutely not your play style? You have three different shellings and therefore three different play styles. So its maybe useless.
Even in Stories 2 the Gunlance has by far the lowest damage numbers and the worse skill set.
And the numbers make it pretty clear. Gunlance is always one of the slowest weapons in speedruns. The movement is static, the damage small, the shelling can´t make up for that and there is only one skill to push your damage.
@@zionpark0803 introducing an endgame weapon with busted slots as justification for the sub-par design isn't enough.
Sure fatalis Gunlance is good, but what about the rest of the gunlances?
My major gripes with Alatreon are that
1. Despite Element being highly, highly encouraged because Escaton Judgment, his Elemental hitzones aren't very potent. His Forelimbs cap out at 20, and his Head caps out at like 14 or something. And it gets even worse when he goes into Dragon mode. In terms of actual DPS, Raw is a bazillion times better than Element in this fight.
2. The progress towards suppressing a Judgment is directly correlated to the actual Element damage you're dealing to Alatreon. That in itself is fine, but it goes back to his hitzones again. His Forelimbs aren't his weak spot, it's his Head. However, his forelimbs are his Element weak spot. And other than borderline autistic measuring of your own damage numbers or looking that up on the internet, you wouldn't know that. Hitting the actual weak spot should do the most damage, but in terms of suppressing Judgement, it doesn't
All I would do to his fight is bump up the Element hitzones on his head and forelegs. Like, 25 on the forelegs and 25 or 30 on the head.
1. and 2. are pretty much the same thing.What weapon were you using to have that many problems passing Escaton,Gunlance?
If you ever tried to look at the time during your solo Alatreon clears,you would notice that raw is winning,but usually not by great far(even with Fatalis) because of the free knockdowns you get after passing a check,you can always get 2 really comfortably as long as you know the fight.
And no,bumping up his elemental hitzones would not help,I am glad you're not on balance team and no wonder you like For Honor.If you increase his hitzones every other weapon will be affected as well,if you think some weapons have problems dealing enough elemental damage then you should just decrease their difficulty of passing Escaton instead of making a change that will affect everyone else,you clearly never played old gens when it was an actual thing,and DBs obliterated endgame bosses with high Elemental HZVs
@@kiravremyanoi4772 no, it's much better to have element actually be good. You can very easily just make the threshold for the nova higher. Which in practice, doesn't change much, but it results in the mechanic feeling natural (the monster with a crippling weakness to element is actually weak to it? Makes sense) as opposed to now where it feels kind of forced. And it would make speedruns significantly more interesting too, but I get most MH copers think being good at the game is cheating or some shit so it'd be lost on them. That and element sucks dogshit in this game, who gives a fuck if it's OP vs Alatreon, let it at least be useful somewhere seeing as it's complete meme tier for all but 3 weapons and CB vs Luna.
It's the same theory as monster w/ low HP but bad hitzones vs monster w/ high HP and great hitzones. In practice, same length fight, but it just feels infinitely better to fight the latter because shitty damage for no discernable reason just feels bad, and the actual player feel is very important to the perception of the fight.
The guy also never said he had trouble with Escaton, just that he thinks it's dumb as fuck to have the monster whose whole gimmick is elemental weakness not actually be weak to element in a meaningful way.
Alatreon is fine, what is not tho is Escaton. Specifically after you break both of his horns.
To add, why is he available for MR24? That's ridiculously low and is quite literally shoving people into a wall. The fact that Ruiner Nergigante had to be grinded to MR100 to even be available to fight makes the design choice of putting Alatreon in such a low MR baffling. Which is why people tend to look at the fight with such disgust because their first impressions of it were shattered when they went in blind with Raging Brachy Gear.
If you cant kill alatreon in 2 cycles yur doing something wrong.
you literally parrot every opinion from forums into 1 comment,what are you bringing to the table except repeating? if you cant kill alatreon in 2 novas you're definetly doing something very wrong,especially if you don't do it solo
@@kiravremyanoi4772 So I'm not supposed to comment my own opinion on the topic, just because I watched the video late and alot more people had a similar opinion?
Idk what's with that amount of vitriol just because I had similarities to others.
And besides, the fact that to counter EJ is a flat DPS check is what I'm having an issue with, which is highlighted when you break both of his horns. It's either you hit those checks or you cart. Which isn't bad by itself, but when the means to hit that check is via elemental damage, something that is absolutely terrible in World AND you can only do it optimally in a specific phase of the fight, just makes the flat DPS check feels cheap.
Hell, I even enjoyed Fatalis more than Alatreon purely because of how restricting that fight was.
Honestly MR24 is more than enough to beat him
@@magosexploratoradeon6409 Fucking based. You hit the nail on the head with this.
The Alatreon( Iceborne one ) has honestly the most stylish basic attack and i'm not even talking of THE ESCATON JUDGMENT( of course it was annoying but yet badass )
Which one do you mean? He literally has the most stylish basic attacks in Monster Hunter
Water Style: Water Bullets!
Aletreon's base kit one among my favorites in the game. 95% of my problem with the fight is that Aletreaon has the clock on his side and he intends to stall for as long as possible on the majority of runs by staying in the air. He's completely immune to any standard method of dropping him when enraged, and it's surprisingly difficult to reach for a flinch shot on the rare chance he isn't enraged. Making this fight feel like trying to get an optimized speed run in a game with a lot of RNG...
I would propose to make the DPS check a bit larger (maybe change the horn HP, but idk) but make him ONLY fly while to use his aerial moves. This way it would be more skill dependant than what we have now.
Tbh, it's one of my favorite fights in the game rn. The problem is that a lot of people didn't care about / weren't good at making builds and got dunked on for it. When I first tried alatreon, I kept failing the escaton check in a 4 man while using an optimized stygian zinogre hh build (good dragon attack + lots of elemental dmg songs). I was a bit confused at first and thought the escaton check should've gotten a minor nerf, but then I looked at my teammate's builds... I ended up grinding out the kjarr dragon DB and proceeded to kill him first try on my first ever DB hunt. The problem were the people who innitially thought it was a skill issue, learned the fight (or maybe not lmao), then complained after still not being able to do it when their build had
and that is not good. forcing people to make something "specific" is truly bad design
@@Exel3nce I personally disagree, I like the idea in monster hunter of having to adapt to the monster rather than being stationary with a build that's been carrying you, it's monster hunter the monster don't have to revolve around you. In my case the main problem was that I didn't have many good elemental HH available when I unlocked Alatreon and my sole option was Frostfang barioth HH, because I despise de ammount of grind it takes Safii jiiva, and had a personal grudge of not using anything from safii jiiva because all the videos i've seen with HH were using safii stuff/kulve weapons, So i did it by my own with a not minmaxed set focused on elemental which made the fight a ton of fun having to plan a strategy around my limitations. Then I have my personal takes that only translate to me as a person, but saying that it's a bad design it's a weird statement. There are some execution problems, but escathon is a good mechanic that forces you to be out of your comfort zone and think as a hunter adapting to the monster and the hunt. Rather than using whatever meta set you find in google. there's a reason of why there are many different weapons of choice, playstyles, armours that function for different purposes. I don't see anything wrong of having to adapt and play outside of the comfort builds and having to use specialized gear for a monster.
@@Exel3nce but thats how monster hunter is supposed to function? you're SUPPOSED to plan around a monster and exploit their weaknesses, thats the whole point of making builds in the first place
@@terribletyto thats is true, but not to this extend where you have to simply throw everything away that you got and start doing other shit before you even can try
@@Exel3nce with all due respect, you don't "throw everything away" in monster hunter though. its not like you make a build but never use it again because of one monster. you adapt, you overcome. that's the fundamental of this game. all these youtube videos talking ab endgame armor make it seem like there's only one way to play monster hunter when it simply isn't true. don't be afraid to experiment, that's the entire point of MH anyway!
basically dont give up hope, even if it does feel hopeless.
While i'm not the biggest fan of EJ, my biggest gripe with Alatreon isn't with the fight, it's that i never managed to get a Safi Hunting Horn with an element and songlist i liked to fight it with.
Escaton judgement.... I dont mind it, however it’s very disruptive to the usual monster gimmick
If iceborne alatreon didnt have escaton judgement I think it’s a 10/10 fight
Edit: I main gunlance, greatsword, switchaxe
I’ve gotten used to gunlance having horrible matchups
So I said screw everything and use insect glaive
I roleplayed FFXIV, full drachen layered, with layered gae bolg
And used kinsect for the dps check (in less than 2 minutes, me with greatsword couldn’t do that consistently)
The true FFXIV experience, walkin around casting whilst dodging AOE’s while listening to dope tunes
gunlance only had one bad matchup imo and that was 3u brachydios because slime blew you up on blocking another slime attack. that and his gosh darn tail that game was a menace. managing aggression and sticking too monsters is a staple issue of the weapon but never so far as to make matchups a nightmare. escaton isn't that disruptive imo it just forces a certain kit and if you really wana be effective a certain combo to maximize elemental dps on the various punish windows alatreon gives you. simply clutch the face into a wall and the horns break like a toothpick.
@@tbc1880 thats why you run dash juices infinite block city well at least until you die from cheap damage xD
Honestly the thing I hated most about this guy was the arena you fought him in and the disgustingly tiny wallbang hitbox it gave you, while (to me) it almost being necessary to hit it to break the horn due to using a weapon without any vertical reach at all.
The amount of times I had to restart because the attempt at a wallbang ended in him grinding his face against the wall 3 inches away from where a wallbang would've counted.
In my first successful hunt I didn't even manage any horn breaks, but just went super aggressive and hit the dps check in its dragon form.
Here's my take:
Alatreon is a GOOD fight with bad design decisions.
Now, as a Black Dragon, he deserved to be insanely fecking hard, however I feel that DPS checks like Behemoth don't make the most sense in Monster Hunter, at least in the way Alatreon was done. You can argue that it challenges hunters to use unique strategies outside their comfort zones, which has been said by devs to be a main design decision of the series. Can't win with your normal strategy? Try something new!
However with Iceborne's Alatreon, some weapons legitimately I don't feel like they can handle the Elemental DPS check to me. Mainly the heavier, usually RAW weapons (Great Sword, Hammer, Lance, Hunting Horn) at least for me. I NEED to use Charge Blade, Swax, Glaive, L.Bowgun or Bow, weapons I am either semi-decent with or just inexperienced in.
Now the thing is, I can get by all of that, but my main issue is that Alatreon in Iceborne, doesn't FEEL like a Monster Hunter fight to me. Not because of the single zone or anything, but BECAUSE of his phases. It feels like an MMO fight to me MIXED with Monster Hunter, akin to the Behemoth crossover, as imo, when playing online which I like to do, multiplayer is the heart of MH to me, you need "roles". Two fire/ice dps for fire/ice phase, a dragon dps for the dragon phase (with Partbreaker), and a support in the form of a wide-range SNS (usually) who can still do elemental dps.
Now this feel isn't exclusive to Alatreon to me, in fact I wasn't a huge fan of how DPS check's became the standard for iceborne's "big 3" as I call them. Safi, Alatreon AND Fatalis all have (or had in Safi's case since he was nerfed) semi-strict DPS checks. That's even without mentioning Ancient Leshen's jank.
I do still LIKE the fights, but the DPS checks in conjunction with strict time limits (in Fatalis' case especially) are double edged swords to me. They add an extra layer of challenge to Monsters who SHOULD be a challenge, but in a way that I feel also hinders the fights. That's just my take though. It'll probably change down the line
Never minded the elem check part of it. I just hated how much running around is featured in the fight. Ala loves to hop back across the entire arena, and once enraged and flying I just feel SOL. Can't claw onto it, it reacts instantly with the charge attack to yeet you off. Can't hit it consistently up there. It just feels like it's wasting my time soon as that starts and it can take like 5minutes before it decides to finally come back down. Killed it a few times and never wanted to learn it properly, just hated the whole ordeal.
MMORPG mechanics for Behemoth makes sense, considering that was the entire point of the crossover. Forcing a classic monster to be remade with forced MMORPG mechanics in a Monster Hunter game is awful and has no place in Monster Hunter. If the devs wanted people to try elemental builds, they should probably make elemental more useful for weapons other than just Dualblades and Bow. (Not to mention you can just circumvent the entire mechanic by just using high raw and carting a few times solo.)
Say what you want about Escaton and the dps check, he still has the cleanest hit box in all monster hunter, period. It almost brings tears to my eyes.
That's what makes it so heartbreaking that they had to ruin such an excellent monster with that bullshit nonsense EJ and dps check. I always have fun when fighting it, then it EJ happens cus I didn't meet the check with my 700+ elem weapon and I hate it all over again.
@@MezzoForte4bruh it’s so easy to meet the dps check if you can’t meet it you’re not good enough to fight him, i literally soloed him at mr 80 without any safi or kulve gear
@@b4bnik oh no, an elitist
@@Exel3nce no… just someone who doesn’t complain as soon as there is a hard monster in the game? Alatreon isn’t a hard monster, he has huge openings that are very punishable, how is that elitist?
@@b4bnik the point is there shouldn't be no dps check at all
I'm going be the one to say it wasn't a great fight. The mechanics felt too much like an MMO (wipe mechanic and dps check) and felt like player builds were limited around elemental damage just to force a bit of change. Sure the fight looks and sounds great but it was so frustrating to the point that it pushed me and a friend of mine away from the endgame of iceborn completely.
Time will tell if sunbreak will or won't have these types of fights, but hopefully it has an endgame I can enjoy regardless.
Agreed… Alatreon was the fight that’s broken me more than any other. It sucks because it’s damage is high, forces you to play aggressive anyways, and spends a good portion of the fight dashing away from you in my experience.
My opinion for why this is the worst fight in the game is because nobody likes the judgement ability. It’s gimmicky and it ruins an otherwise interesting and fun boss fight.
Having a dps check that is also a SPECIFIC damage type dps check is annoying. Other 1 shot abilities (for the most part) have a direct way to always be able to deal with it. Having the DPS check is just “you either did it or you didn’t, now you are guaranteed to die”.
Next thing is this fight was made with the premise of making elemental weapons useful. This in my opinion is a slap in the face because they never buffed elemental damage and just made it REQUIRED for a single fight in the game, while not fixing the issue.
The problem was never Alatreon itself or really how most of the fight played out. It was just the bullshit arbitrary damage wall you had to meet during the fight in order to not immediately fucking die. From an unavoidable 1 shot area of effect explosion that would kill you and your whole squad if you didn't meet said damage wall. Whuch you could STILL wipe to even if you did meet it, if your team didn't know they had to spam jerky (which most people didn't even fucking carry until that point because there was no reason and therefore probably forgot it even existed.) As well as place a health booster next to everyone else's health boosters to out heal the tick damage of the attack. Which was an extremely unnecessary level of difficulty for a boss that was already pretty fucking tough to begin with as it was, but not to mention also never had said bullshit mechanic in previous games.
Besides the removal of player build choice and giving the players vague instructions on to combat the monster at the time...
The greatest sin is the fact that these *"endgame"* black dragons are listed as a MR 24 quest and not somewhere in the 100s and up.
I'd argue that having to alter your build to adapt to each challenge, giving more incentive to play the game for various equipment and not bypassing the game with the same exact tactics in every situation is WHAT MAKES THE GAME FUN.
yes thats how old monster hunter kinda was until you ended up with an amazing set. and even then you had to prepare items to do well.
exactly, raw damage donkey builds kill the spirit of monster hunter. i really wish they'd be nerfed like they should be viable yes, but they should never outperform the element that the monster is weak to.
Sorry that I don't have a ton of time to farm elemental sets from the ground up,fuck me I guess.
@@lion-ef1nv And the fact that almost all the best elemental weapons are locked behind RNG (Safi and KT weapons) so yeah, fuck me too
@@lion-ef1nv I mean, it's the heart of the series to grind monsters and adapt, it's not their fault you don't have the time. It's an endgame fight, not a great Jagras lmao
Why I hate Alatreon? I was forced to deal with EJ twice because breaking his horns twice is literally the only chances you have of not dying. Once those are gone, it is impossible to weaken him once he switches to an element you cant oppose.
There hasn’t been a single fight in this game that has challenged me like Alatreon has, so I can appreciate the struggle. Haven’t beat him yet but i’m getting closer
he is the best fight in the game. So fun, challenging, strategic and technical. Perfectly designed end game encounter. Some weapons were naturally gonna have a harder time but that applies to every fight. I used Great Sword, which has terrible elemental output, yet can still beat him comfortably with frostcraft. Alatreon embodies the principle of recognising the threat and preparing accordingly. It's not restrictive, it's considered design that tests a specific skill from the player. Every monster does this to an extent but Alatreon is the best at it.
My issue was that I wanted to go in blind... And I did... And all my builds were mostly raw hammer... And I had sold my kulve weapons... Long story short with my available play time I effectively had to spend like a month grinding to actually have a good build that allowed me to actually ya know... Attempt the fight, and that basically closed online since every time I tried it was only the hunters who couldn't even survive until the first judgment happened. I normally solo hunt anyway but with the trouble Alatrion was giving me online would have at least been nice to have as a viable option while learning him.
Alatreon's Escaton Judgement gate keeped. That was the problem.
Missed Opportunity on talking about MHP3rd's Alatreon !
It's basically MHTri Alatreon but added a mechanic where it will not start flying AND switch to Thunder + Ice mode **if you do enough damage to his Head/Horns consistently ** .
It makes the fight massively more enjoyable for almost all weapon types.
Because of that it's probably the 2nd best version of Alatreon we've ever got, even when Gen/GU made improvements on the visuals of its elemental mode. It definitely inspired the Alatreon horn break mechanics we got in Iceborne.
The reason why people hate this is because this fight forces you to use light weapons (LS, SnS, IS, DB) and if you use heavy weapons (GS, Lance, Hammer, HH) like me, then you either have to switch to a weapon you don't like playing or do a ridiculous amount of damage before Escaton Judgement can even happen.
It really doesn't because they had modifiers on how much a weapon was contributing to the dps check. Dual blades contributed the least, and greatsword contributed the most. Which means all weapons were basically equal, other than gunlance which generally relies on shelling.
In fact, with greatsword I could guarantee multiple topples before EJ but I couldn't guarantee it with Dual Blades despite one of the two being supposedly better for element
Legitimately It took me 6 months to beat it but I love that fight
Edit: also you nailed the pronunciations
Hahaha, had to study up, y’all roasted me last time
As a gunlance user Alatreon really frustraded me
I pride myself with my defensive capabiletys, even beeing able to block Sharas super beam
But beeing forced to take a hit no matter what I do and nothing I can do about is just really frustrating
I'm still havent figuered out how to beat him, I just know using my beloved gunlance wont help me
Alatreon ain't bad at all. Man once I realized it was an ELEMENTAL fight. Took off the blast Longsword and forgot I had a chad KJAR ICE in my storage. Made the build and suited up getting that lovely stagger in sub 3 minutes to take his ass OUT
The meta losers just couldnt get over the fact they couldnt bring theyre stupid unfun meta builds into the fight and they had to actually play monster hunter
Bro once you get the fight down and the set its such a breeze it's such an enjoyable fight
Indeed once you understand how it works, when you can hit, when you can't, the hunt becomes one of the best. For real I really enjoy hunting alatreon just for fun. For example, fatalis is also great, but I don't hunt him for him for fun as he's too stressful, and Safi is too tedious sometimes. So if I just want a casual hard black dragon hunt, I go for alatreon
Alatreon was the game ender for me. i had enjoyed playing through MHW with my gf and playing it with two other buddies, i think i was getting tired of the game what with some Safi grinding. So when this big boy shows up and we try multiple times to beat him - i just gave up and moved on.
I'll come back for you Alatreon. Just you and me... one day >:I
My solution to the contraversy is to shift EJ's mechanics.
The way it works is that it has a X damage threashhold. Should you deal X Elemental damage, escaton judgement will do nothing. Additionally, should you deal half of X damage, EJ does half its damage.
These are hard limits. You must hit those thresholds or else you fall victim to Alatreon's cycle of EJ, death, wrong element (if you didnt swap elemental weapon), no damage, no reduction of EJ, death, repeat.
The way I'd change it to be a bit more fair is that whatever damage you deal to Alatreon to affect EJ directly affects EJ, rather than a hard threshold. If you deal 30% of EJ, then 30% of EJ's damage would be taken away. Allowing an easier way of out healing without perfect darkside timing. Atm if you were to deal 30% of the threshold you'd not deal X÷2 thus causing death.
There are a few ways this could alter the way EJ works.
Affects duration of the attack, so you could outheal it in a short time via max potion.
Affects the tick rate causing less dps to the player for the duration.
Affects the damage each tic does for the same effect as above.
Since it currently does the amount of damage delt per tic, it would fit to have this also apply to my approach so it'd make it easier to deal with. Rather than bottlenecking players with a *You must deal X damage or else* mechanic.
All in all it'd make mixing your playstyle should you not have a *MAX elemental dps ultra build & knuckles* easier. Instead have a decent weapon and have a good healing supply to balance out your lack of elemental dps.
*Everything else* about Alatreon's fight is perfect. Its just the forced playstyle that soured the experience as it runs counter to MH's design.
My main thing with alatreon is that he kind of goes against the idea that monster hunter allows you to choose whatever weapon you want to fight these gigantic behemoths and one of the big ones is greatsword which does amazing basic damage but has little to no elemental damage and it was designed that way but because it is that way it means that any greatsword main was screwed against alatreon
I know for a fact I have commented somewhere in this comment section before about how terrible Alatreon fight is. That was months ago, and right now I can consistently make Alatreon my bitch. From that perspective, I think the only viable gripe I had with fight was relative lack of feedback. What I mean by that is that even if I consistently weaken its Escaton Judgement and break its horns, I kept dying to everything other than Escaton. With my unsucessful fights lasting for nearly half an hour, I had no idea how close or far I was from victory. I think that part made me so frustrated and salty.
Right now, all my other gripes were proven to be untrue. Alatreon isn't unfair. I can - and therefere everyone could - kill it with HBG in a manner developers intended instead of brute forcing.
To answer whether Alareon was really that bad, I'd say no. It is pretty great fight actually, you just need to be really prepared for it, and even if you are, the fight is going to be challenging, so you need to learn the moveset, learn to not overcommit your attack, learn when to stay down instead getting up immediately etc. But a satisfaction from crushing seemingly invincible wall is really worth all the salt and anger
I'm starting to realize I'm ine of the only players who uses consistent elemental combat. I usually go for high defense and elemental resistances and then a weapon that can take advantage of the elemental weaknesses. Probably doesn't hurt that im a bowgun user.
I actually appreciate that they forced people to use element just because raw crit builds where so common and stale
It's mostly a result of having so much leeway with skills whereas in older games you really had to push for every individual skill and couldn't max out agitator, crit eye, attack up, crit boost, weakness exploit, and any weapon specific skills
I really think they should rework skills or create more unique ones to keep builds more diverse
I was really happy when Alatreon gave me a proper excuse to build an entirely new set. Breaking up the raging brachy meta even if it was just for one hunt was a breath of fresh air I didn't know how much I needed til I got it. He's one of my favorite fights in the game -- once you understand his quirks, he's easy enough to deal with, but still very punishing if you're sloppy. A good fight all around, in my opinion anyway.
I'm a bit less proud to admit that it did bring out the git gudder in me when the review bombing began. But I'll never not think that wasn't a massive overreaction on the part of salty players. It's fine not to like the fight, but come on guys...
I like this fight because it makes the hunter change their build.
At that time the R.brachy equipments were meta for a long period, each and every hunt were done by the same build(raw) over and over again. So it was nice to see some changes in build and strategy while hunting this BLACK DRAGON.
This fight makes the hunter to play agressive plus alatreon attacks/moves are well telegraphed.
I guess the main issue would be the weapon match up like GS, hammer.
As someone who mained Gunlance in Iceborne and mained Greatsword for all of base game World. I was pretty damned annoyed how my main weapon was literally useless and Greatsword was just a detrement to bring. Really didn't feel nice that i just completely couldn't bring my main weapons.
I've always loved Alatreon. He is, even after Iceborne, my favorite Black Dragon, and possibly my favorite Elder Dragon. But I really, REALLY disliked the mechanics of his fight in IB. I didn't like being told to bring friends to a 3-cart quest where you can all simultaneously be killed by a guaranteed O.H. kill, instantly failing. I didn't like trying to deal elemental damage while he kept jumping away from me or flying. I didn't like being forced to use certain weapons and builds in a game where you normally have the freedom to use whatever the heck you want. And above all, I hated that 5-minute timer that took me out of the game, that made me feel like I was playing something else entirely besides Monster Hunter, that made me sigh with relief rather than cheer with victory when I finally killed him.
I didn't feel happy that I beat Alatreon, I was happy that the ordeal was over and I could go back to my just-for-fun, sub-optimal builds that were super enjoyable to play, but TERRIBLE at killing this one specific monster. Yeah, Capcom and the Monster Hunter team made Alatreon threatening again... but at what cost? Is this how endgame content is going to be in the future, with timers and countdowns that mess with your immersion and lead to certain failure unless you fulfill some condition, deal an arbitrary amount of damage? It worries me.
@@BrunoSantana16 how’d you come to that conclusion lmao, they’re just saying they would’ve liked if they had more freedom to use the gear they want
@@BrunoSantana16 No more like he's concerned that Endgame is slowly going the MMO route of "oh you didn't prep for this specifically? Well you ain't getting any sense of achievement".
Bruno Santana You smell like a World baby who never played the old games because they were too “clunky”, never realizing the brilliance of THEIR game mechanics in teaching the player.
Bro to this day I havent had a team with high enough elemental to kill a single one. Built for max element on all 3 that are good or decent and still nothing. Everyone tried different elements as well and still nothing. The closest I got to killing it was solo with a light bow gun.
IN MY OPINION
Alatreon is not a bad fight. Sure some of the mechanics can be frustrating to deal with from time to time especially if you've going at it for a while and haven't quite gotten it down, however his kit is rather learnable than what it may seem on the surface. Learning a fight is probably a key thing to note on any monster in any part of monster hunter is knowing what to do when a monster do certain things. Not saying you have to just get good or anything but if you haven't figured out anything about a fight that yu've been stuck on then I personally think you have no excuse. On the other hand if you have learned the fight a bit but still aren't seeing results then it may have something to do with how you are coming at the fight itself. Maybe a change of playstyle IS needed to perform better at certain points but not all the time. In Monster Hunter all weapons are able to perform what they need to do when they need to and are able to fluctuate with however way the player tries to do stuff. Sometimes changing things up is necessary.
I'm gonna stop there
I do like Alatreon, for me it went from hate to love as i tried to solo him, so i don't mind him being a super boss
I even dare to call this the “final boss.”Yes Fatalis is the true final boss but there’s something about alatreon that definitely screams Final battle
i will say this. alatreon is amazing. if they wanted to make players use elements. then well you know.... MAKE ELEMENTS WORTH IT. dont force people to use them with a new mechanic. because you made it bad in the first place.
no matter what. element should always do more damage. lets say if you have a weapon thats 100 raw. vs a weapon thats 80 raw 20 fire. you fight a fire weak monster. the fire weapon should always come out on top. WITH ALL WEAPONS not just stuff like dual blades.
a max elemental crit element set should always be king in damage over a raw crit / crit boost set.
Q: Was Alatreon really that bad?
A: No, people are
People who hate on the fight tend to incredibly overstate the elemental damage check. If you know what you are doing, you can survive the nova with a single elemental topple, which is pretty much always attainable with any weapon as long as you 1: use a weapon that has elemental damage to begin with, and 2: actually hit the monster enough. If anyone fails at either of those two requisites, then they deserve to cart every single time until they learn.
Still baffles me that, between Alatreon and Fatalis, people unironically believe the former is somehow less "fair" than the second.
If you know what you’re doing and going solo, you don’t even need an elemental weapon. Just eat one or two carts from escatons and kill him before the third.
Figuring out the fight took a while but I was happy in not being able to steam roll brand new content as soon as it dropped for once.
@@michaelmeissen844 you don’t even need that, it’s possible to kill him before the first Escaton with blast weapons
He was a great fight and a fantastic addition to world but escaton judgment and all the restrictions on your ability was dumb
Looking back it was just because my build was really underleveled. I was a bow main so I switched to Sword and shield because I was having problems with the bow for some reason. So I had to go back and grind the optimal weapons for ice and fire sword and shield. Looking back once I figured things out it wasn't that bad. I was frustrated and I understood why people were too. Honestly I beat Altreon once and never went back lol. I died some many times that I had enough material to go craft all the other weapons and armor. Yeah I died that much.
Loved Ala, I remember the first time I finally cleared it solo I was so happy.
Even many, many months later, Alatreon is still IMO harder to fight than Fatalis despite the latter being the "final" challenge... mostly because of how much of a DPS check he is.
Hard agreed; and this is coming from a guy who wants to solo these fights. Alatreon WITHOUT Judgement would probably be an 'easier' fight, although the scalar would be low since if he wasn't pretty difficulty he wouldn't be a proper Black Dragon, but with the mechanics it becomes a lot more difficult than Fatalis by virtue of everything you need to keep track of, whereas with Fatalis its just you, the arena and a very angry dragon.
The element thresholds were the only bad part because it is stat-based, not skill based like breaking his Horns. Other than that, the fight was okay
This is one of my favorite fights in the game
My only problem with alatreon is the fact that if you know not what to do, you simply can't beat him. It never states how much ele damage is needed or anything else and seeing as it's a very easy fight to get into because all you need to do is survive a weakened safi fight. It doesn't prepare a player for one of the hardest fights in the series.
But that is probably a good thing because there is no B's in the fight. Personally I would like it more if alatreon was always grounded or that his aerial attacks werent as often because it breaks the flow of the fight too much and really showed why bow or gun is the best weapon in the game. Like seriously you expect me to do enough dmg in 8 minutes when 4 of those minutes were him flying.
I like altreon, he shows the greatness of MHW but also it's heavy handed flaws
It is a challenging fight. It made me realize why I usually hunt solo.
Lol there was a time in monster hunter world when complained that the game was too easy. And as soon as master rank shows up they wanna complain that the late game monsters were too hard.
Alatreon isn't bad, the people who still complain about how strong it is are lol
It makes me so angery how one of the last fights in the post post game of the DLC to my long ass game wants me to use elemental weapons. It takes away all my freedom and the ability to use my huge arsenal of weapons (1 raw LS). Jokes aside, I love Alatreon, it's probably my most favorite fight in all of MH and i like how Fatty and Ala actually require some effort for once.
I also think it's funny how most people that complain about how he takes away your weapon freedom are the same people that only use raw weapons.
For me its just escalon judgement thats it maybe if it was change so instead of oneshoting you he would imbue himself in dragon element and the next element in line as well as increased damage that way it would feel less artificial
Alatreon stung really bad for me when i first fought it because my mains were gunlance and lance, with greatsword, hammer, and sticky/spread hbg as secondary weapons, 4 of which are not good at dealing elemental, lance is ok at dealing elemental, I just wasn't good enough with it to actually stay on the monster to deal enough of it out. The fact that I was using 35% of the entire games weapon roster, and all of which were not good at this fight specifically, I just decided to skip on it.
About 6 months later, a while after I had beaten fatalis and gotten some fun builds going, I was playing around with all sorts of other weapons, and I decided to just make some dual blades with the highest possible ice damage I could get given the resources I had at the time. It took a couple of tries to get reacquainted with the fight, but I was getting elemental topples everytime, sometimes even twice in one ESJ rotation, and within that same day it was dead.
That shit is why I still really dislike this fight, the game told me "no, you have to play something that does good elemental, unless you want a face full of ESJ", like its completely doable with all the weapons I was playing, but waaaaay easier with DB. I think its good for monsters to have different weapon matchups, I think that it incentives variety and broadening horizons, its why I played 5 different weapons in the first place, but the difference is normally a few minutes and some saved potions for later, not a failed quest.
Actually, you're wrong. They actually had modifiers based on the weapon you were using so that all weapons were more or less equal for the elemental dps check. In fact, I found multiple topples before judgment easier with greatsword then with dual blades
alatreon was amazing, people were just bitching that they had to actuslly adapt to the monster and its unique mechanics(myself included for a time)
Alatreon was my nemesis for a while, but my manner of fighting it solo eventually became rocking Namielle Gamma + Dragon Kjarr dual blades, while a touch slow, being able to enjoy and learn the full extent of the moveset does let me get the topple in midway trough the Dragon Active state. Been my solo fighting for it ever since with how punishing getting Dragonblighted is in this iteration.
the big problem with MHW is the power creep. they boosted the monster so much that people compelling to make stronger and stronger raw set to deal with them. yet Alatreon is their "attempted" to "force" the player to consider elemental build. when you have to "force" the player to do something, they will not like to do it. they should have "reward" the player for using elemental weapon for the fight instead of "if you dont do elemental damage, you die" approach. it simply bad game design. player never want to be forced into making a decision. they can make their own decision of using elemental to improve their gameplay, but forcing it on them will simply not work.
they start off making raw weapon massively out class elemental weapon, then do a 180 and make player use elemental weapon for one specific monster. that make player confused. if they want player to use elemental weapon, they should have make it stronger than raw weapon to begin with. like each monster supposed to be weak to a different element, it is much harder to build an elemental build than a raw build, it more costly to make an elemental build, then why is it not better than raw build? simply because MHW have a very bad elemental balance. many monster are of the same element, while some element only have 1 or 2 monster. it make some element build and some element type totally useless. why bother spending resource in making element build that you never gonna use? why dont you just make a raw build that is good for everything?
I loved the alatreon fight. Managed it with every weapon in the game. I would hunt it daily
To this day, I still can’t beat it in the story mode. I’ve tried everything I can think of. I get close, but he just flies and charges me endlessly, and hitting with aoe in between. I might try again eventually, but I quit nearly a year ago because of this fight.
As someone who really really struggled with the fight for almost 3 years, what I was really looking for was a hard number recommendation. I was using the velkhana insect glaive and I had about 400 elemental damage and every attempt it just didn't come close. I eventually switched to the Frost fang barioth weapon capping out at about 600 and beat the guy in almost 20 minutes. There's plenty to like about the fight and to be perfectly honest, it is easily one of the most diverse and challenging in terms of movesets and spacing. But the fact that the game is so cryptic with what it wants you to do means that players who are not quite as savvy or maybe aren't having as easy. A time with his general moves are really left up a creek without a paddle.
Alatreon was amazing. The DPS check was nerve racking and it forced you to play aggressively. I learned to love frostcraft GS because of it. What's the point of putting in a black dragon if he's gonna be a push over.
I think another thing to take into consideration besides what weapon is used, is how you play. Solo the dps check isnt all too punishing. But when ramped up into online play, with people who may now know how to build for elemental damage (MH doesnt do a great job reinforcing the info after the initial "Hey its a thing!"). It makes the dps check feel like something you cant count on beating cuz, like you said, if a new player is running their raw dmg build and refusing to switch off because every other fight says "you can ignore elemental dmg" it can get really annoying getting wiped at the same move time and time again when all 4 carts get used in a full lobby
I killed alatreon with GS with NAKED TA WIKI RULE + get 2 time elemental topple. Its a fun fight ngl. I dont understand ppl complain that alatreon.
In short no. He's my favorite. No joke. Anyone who dislikes alatreon is just not prepped well enough. Also player choice isn't taken. You can run any weapon type. There's really no bad weapons in mh.
Hey man keep up the great work ! Love the vids !
I'm late, but back in world I was a black sheep building for Sleep/Exhaust/KO on a hunting horn. I kept the monster on the floor, but Alatrion didn't work with that build. I could keep it on the grond for others but the lack of element damage we could never survive the judgement. I luckily main the glaive too so we still where able to take it down without too much change.
Between the game expecting me to go through the 7 layers of rng hell for a good elemental weapon and the dps check i cant beat cuz Alatreon spends 60% of the fight in the air...
Had no fun learning the fight so i quit after wipe 3..
Also whoever thought giving him multiple elements but no way to switch gear without carting deserves to step on a lego
me who plays dual blades and bow "you guys struggled?"
To be fair, the literal 5 first times i tried it he did hit me with something in the first 5 seconds, i waited for him to miss an attack heal get hit again and die, in like 30 seconds
The real problem is the fact you access to alatreon and fatalis at rk24…
Honestly Alatreon is awesome. I loved the fight. Almudron though... I know every attack it puts out and how to dodge them but the shit hitboxes on its tail still hit incredibly often and its annoying.
Yes. Even though ala was my favorite fight in tri, adding a one shot move is dumb. Capcom and do better, I have seen them do better, just using a one shot to make a monster harder is dumb. That is my only real complaint because its such a hard and fun fight, just the one shot move sucks.
What I enjoyed about Alatreon and Fatalis was that they were fights you had to figure out why certain things just killed you. Even Fatalis has it's horn thing, where it's close to impossible to survive if you don't break the horn before last phase, or early on in the last phase.
Both of them made me do close to 9hours of repeated failures of trying different things. And the one kill we finally got down was actually to just tank Escaton Judgement, and this was with a random group where we just took all the jerky and friendship we could muster and managed to get a W.
It was fun trying to solve the mystery and we kind of realized very early on that element was a big factor anyhow. The problem mainly was that people didn't have elemental builds ready and it all started to show on community posts that it's somehow a bad system, which it is not. Atleast not as bad as some people made it out to be.
looking back on icebornes alatreon and having actually fought him in gen u now, the absolute worst decision the dev's did with this fight was the MR rank requirement. why the eff is it at 24??? everyone, and I mean everyone who understands what is difficulty is, looks at another player and sees a rank of 24 knows full well they are 100% NOT ready for a 1st class threat black dragon. I was a little upset at the fight too at first but that was me being an absolute child venting my frustrations and too prideful to look up a guide (and I was above 120 and maining bow by that point so could you imagine the upset a below 50 rank player is gonna have) It's honestly no wonder there were soooooo many people wanting him nerfed or removed....the players who haven't even fought ruiner nergie outside of story are upset they cant beat a monster that is in a whole another threat level. once people got better at the game and started to understand the game more and actually make more builds with a different purpose other than "gotta them dps", alatreon wasn't as nearly as bad. and capcom did actually give us a nerfed alatreon...as a requirement for fighting fatalis. its not like a rank 24 was gonna beat alatreon anyways. they were gonna need to get carried and well the player base in monster hunter is VERY against low rank players when it comes to these end game fights. world/iceborne from what I can tell is WAAYY nicer then gen u was. want to do a deviant lvl 14 and 15 for your weapon upgrades? hope u got friends irl that can carry cause most of the time anything below a 50 rank and they leave as soon as they pop in (if they pop in at all).
ps - god bless you 999s on gen u...u are absolute saviors
Alatreon was my fav fight in the game. Took 8 hours for me to finally get a kill, but after you learn moveset and the judgement mechanic was worked out, it wasn't much of an ordeal.
i mostly solo'd alatreon since most randoms are just unga bunga blast weapons.
alot of people complained about the amount of elemental damage needed for the checks, meanwhile i just breezed through the fights with critdraw, element up velk armor with elemental safi gs(combination of element up and sharpness up).
This fight was amongst my favorites in world to duo. My friend usually builds many sets so he didn't mind and I like raw efficiency so we went fire/ice and Dragon respectively depending on the quest starting element and I also like the HH so I gave out extra elemental buffs. I just swapped a few skills since I know I didn't need too much raw damage for more element and after a dozen tries we got the hang of it and farmed out all of it's gear. Now I'm rocking an alatreon set with 2k dragon damage and the ability to buff others too to make it easier. We've even helped out people who had 0 elemental damage.
I only wished that elemental builds could outdamage Crit/raw builds due to hitting a monsters weakness (3 star)but since Crit was the most optimal for damage people did not like change or making a new set for what worked in a majority of fights.
Alatreon would be fine without the dps check. Need I say more?
Well structured video and a decent take I'd say.
I'm surprised you don't have more subs.
I think they should have scrapped the dps check and focused on the elements. Remove the dps check, make Alatreon straight up immune to raw and only take elemental damage, change escaton judgement to do all elemental types of damage, if the players don't break alatreon's horns and don't have 20 resist in a damage type they receive a special version of each elemental blight they don't resist that can't be removed or have its duration shortened (5 minutes).
BAM! Now Alatreon is all about the elements and his armor that has decent elemental resists can benefit even elemental resistance can play a more important role in the fight and make Alatreon's set bonus very valuable in fighting him. The focus is more on the elements now and less on an artificial dps check, even breaking the horns feels more like a bonus.
I was so surprised by the playerbase at that time, I absolutly LOVE Alatreon, either when it came out (in tri and iceborne, and still now)
The thing I hated about alatreon is that I had to read about how to beat him instead of trying to figure it out by myself, which is very unsatisfying
I think the issue with this fight is that the main mechanic doesn't fit monster hunter. DPS checks, undodgeable nukes, specific gear requirements... that's stuff you'd have in an MMO raid.
Like, Safi, Fatalis and Behemoth had simular nukes but the difference was that you didn't have to facetank them, their mechanic was all about avoiding them altogether. Stand in the right spot, read the tells, make sure your cover isn't destroyed prematurely and you'll be fine.
A lot of Monster Hunter players have a general idea that the only reason why you'd ever get hurt or faint should be because you messed up and got yourself hit, either failing to read the monster or failing to respond to a move properly. Alatreon isn't about that. Even when you weaken him, the damage amount you suffer is still technically enough to kill you, it's just dealt so slowly that you have a chance of outhealing the damage. You cannot avoid that damage. There's no safety rocks to hide behind, no emergency gate to activate, no gesture that provides ivulnerability if you time it perfectly.
You just take a fuckton of damage, guaranteed.
I think to a lot of players, particularily those coming from previous generations of the franchise, that's simply not how a fight should work.
The fact that the only way to make the attack survivable is to deal elemental damage and if you mess up a part break at the right time, you are locked out of dealing elemental damage entirely is just adding insult to injury.
I think players would have less of an issue with it if breaking the horns locked Alatreon from swapping into the opposite elemental form, period. But it only really skips a phase and if you don't dish out enough damage to kill Alatreon before he'd swap into that phase in the next rotation, that's already a guaranteed faint.
Alternatively, if they let you retreat to camp whenever you want so that you could swap to a different weapon if need be, that'd work as well.
But they've locked players into a very specific way this quest has to be played and that just eliminates player choice. Certain weapons either rely on non-elemental attacks or have a hard time actually breaking the horns. It also forces people who main slow weapons to craft an elemental build specifically for that purpose, as elemental damage is usually quite irrelevant on weapons such as GS and Hammer.
Personally, I also think it actively diminishes the monster. You aren't fighting Alatreon, you are fighting the dps check.
On a side note: It's also entirely unintuitive that Escaton Judgement doesn't relate to Elderseal. Like, MHW was the one game to explicitly have a mechanic based around weakening elder dragons with dragon weapons and then they added a boss entirely built around a weakening mechanic that doesn't have anything to do with Elderseal.