Deepwood Scouts better than Waywatchers?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2021
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I'm the submitter of this doomstack. For the record, all the funkiness on Lord Skills is because she's the Laurelorn Forest faction leader, and they were already filled out when I confedded her. It wasn't that bad so I let it slide. Hence the Waystalker too. I probably wouldn't have put him there if the Lord had the correct skill.
The ammo isn't a forest battle gimmick btw, they always have that much ammo. There's an Amber research that gives +40%(or something along those lines) ammunition to all units, and Deepwood Scouts naturally have higher ammo than Waywatchers do so that all starts to add up. The Master of Supplies position gives her army +15% ammo normally, +30% when the Wild Hunt is on.
I was going to submit this battle with 2 Branchwraiths with the net trait but the one I just recruited got assassinated. Also, if you are worried about the magic damage, there's a trait for Branchwraiths that reduces enemy magic resistance by 25% in the local area. You could throw that in there too, if you're fighting dawi, for example.
Very nice
Hmm wonder how it would do in SFO. Pretty nice doomstack
Armor Piercing Damage isn't really a problem... since its all magic damage anyways. Think this deserved a 9 at least.
@@gregorytuttle6538 magic damage is just as affected by armor as normal! Just changes magical vs physical resistance. Sisters have AP + magic, so they aren't much affected by armor. Deepwood scouts will be strongly affected by armor, but they get 2 shots with 5 AP each per volley, so it's actually still pretty decent AP.
How does the army have siege attacker?
Ah, yes, the wood elves main ability: ZHUFBAR 12 POUNDERS
Every race can appreciate power of good Dawi cannon
Go go ally abilities.
100% natural materials only. Ariel approved!
42 pounders you gob, you go to the book for not recognizing the 42 pounders of Zhufbar!
@@konstantinriumin2657 I guess elgi using them is a massive grudgin'!
The army ability is a forest event down near the Lustria Tree place
Really? Good to know. Is it triggered just by being in the region?
Thanks,i was kinda stumped by that one.
From memory, a vampire coast army wants to test some new heavy guns and offers to support you in battle.
If you refuse they turn the guns on you 😆
Yes, I got it. It comes from an event where pirates give you that ability to fight some skaven. Got it in my last sisters campaign. Not exactly sure what triggers it though
I love to see Legend surprised after all the years of Warhammer 2 .
"I usually don't like doing this : having an entire army that's got magic attack"
Says the guy who doomstacks Sisters of Avelorn in every High Elf campaign 😂
He does what he wants
He does what he wants
@@KillZallTheBeast you do what you want as well, that's why you commented twice
@@coaiemandushman1079 nah my phone is a last existing LG so it's on its last legs before I make a choice on a new brand
As HE you dont go up against a lot of magic resist. As WE you have to fight dwarves and they have basic 25%. So its actually a bigger problem for WE than HE. Also Sisters of Avelorn are better in melee, with higher armor, so if the enemy gets to them they are not fucked. Or not as much.
I won a battle today I had absolutely no right to win as Dwarfs going against 4 stacks of Tomb Kings because I thought "What would LegendofTotalWar do" and I did that. I bombed the ever living crap out of one and a half stacks of Tomb Kings then ran away and when they attacked again I had full ammo, bombed the ever living crap out of them again and won. Though my troops were decimated once the bombs ran out every one of my heroes walked away.
Thanks Legend. You win battles even when you aren't even there.
Running away to restock ammo is lowkey genius.
Whenever you hover over terrain on the campaign map - there will be a little biome icon in the corner of the tooltip - if it shows any of the 3 tree options (I think dense & light forest and jungle?) it will be counted as a forest battle.
Lol I love legend being shocked at a cheap ass doom stack spending most of the video trying to debunk it
Stone troll energy
Science is basically trying to disprove your hypothesis before you go on a goose chase for your whole life that goes no where. While Legend didn't really do a science here working to disprove your preconceptions is big brain stuff.
I think the forest battle thing is triggered if the battle map says forest.
Yeah there is Light Forest, Grassland, Hills etc.
Take a drink every time legend confuses waywatchers for waystalkers.
I remember the famous cannons of the wood elves. Caught me off guard quite a bit
This is a good doomstack. Cheap and you can get relatively early. Works well against most enemy. I like how fast they took down the lord and the single entities and the double arrows make them good against infantry.
Also I think the lord didnt had the Sight beyond sight cause the waystalker had it and it doesnt stack. He went for the other ability on the lord.
However, sight beyond sight does stack with the lower tier ability, so having the lord and hero paired to run both abilities works well-ish*.
* It's pretty uncommon to set up a formation that truly benefits from those stacking abilities, since the area of effect is so tiny. Only really compact units can fit effectively into the circles.
Elves forest bonus applies when standing amongst trees on any battle map.
Select any unit with a forest bonus and hover cursor over Forest for the terrain information tip, relative unit information related to their bonuses is shown there.
Depending on your stance or position on the campaign map you should be able to pull a battle map with a forest.
Thought it was counter intuitive for archer units at first, heard one can fire through the tree line for a second or so distance or something for ambush advantage, although that info never appears anywhere as a combat tool tip for archers so idk...
Yeah. Forest battles trigger when you are standing in a spot that says forest (like light forrest or hilly forest and so) when you mouse over the terrain. I don't know if talsyn have this research but there should be one that gives a lot of ammo for everyone.
This worked so well because bluetip deepwood scouts have fantastic burst dps thanks to double shot, which works fantastic against large crowds of lower to mid tier infantry. Dwarf stacks with many shielded longbeards would probably tank these guys out.
It works with jungles to. So lustria is a great place for woodelves.
I believe the pirate aid is an option for one of the quest battles for the sacred pools forrest health
If you hang out by the vampire coast, you can get an event where they offer you a few turns of naval artillery support if you fight against the skaven.
If you're doing skirmish lines as woodelves adding in a pair of sisters of thorn can do a lot to help that skirmish line with their poison debuff + their AOE slow ability
number of entities makes huge difference compared to Waystalkers. For each 3 units of Deepwood scouts, you get extra unit (entity wise) over waywatchers. What i mean is 4 units of Waystalkers will have same number of entities that 3 units of Deepwood scouts. That is huge increase in volume of fire. If you add the fact that they fire 2 shots, 3 units of Waystalkers will fire 180 arrows per volley while 3 units of Deepwood scouts will lunch 480 arrows. That is just one volley, ignoring reload time etc. So unless target is heavily armoured, they just going to dish out a LOT more damage. Even if target is armoured, they still won't have a good time. So unless you are fighting a dino stack or dwarfs, deepwood scouts might be better option.
If you add the fact that WE economy isn't that good, being cheaper should give it even more points.
against a unit with around 100 or lower armor (which is almost everything really) the Deepwood Scouts actually have slightly higher average DPS simply by virtue of the higher model count even with the variable effect of armor. It is around 300 extra potential damage per salvo and they fire faster.
super underrated unit.
Thanks im gonna try them
Non-AP damage still hurts armored units if you have enough. Armor reduces, but doesn't negate damage.
@@kubaGR8 is that not because even non-AP units have a small amount of AP still?
@@Murasame13 It's both, really.
Legend, there are "forest" areas in the battle map and there are "forest battle" types of terrain on campaign map, you can see the terrain type when you mouse over the land while looking for good ambush spot (light forest, dense forest, jungle...). Also as mentioned by others, entering world roots stance guarantees forest battle if you are attacked.
World roots and jungles don't count as forest battles, you don't get the extra ammo of the Glade Captain.
Where is Glade Lady/Lord on the pre-battle screen?
Im pretty sure if you get attacked in the world root stance it counts as a forest battle as im sure there is a check for skill like this thats done as the map is loaded.
Wasn't the chariot fix in the patch, not the beta?
I never would've thought to make a doomstack of this unit
Maybe it should be rated similarly to how you rate lords, showing a separate score for e.g. price, ease of use, strength, ease of creating the stack, etc. then averaging it
Underroot stance puts you in forest battle If you get attacked
Before you enter the battle on the analysis screen it will sya the type of terrain and it needs to say forest there to apply
just got my lunch great timing legend
Can we pit way watchers Vs scouts doomstack?
I am impressed with the very hard difficulty players who just mash the opposition. I've quiet recently moved up to hard and i am struggling badly to gain ground.
This is legendary my man :p
They just cheesing. They not using tactics
Can someone explain why he has access to Zhufbar 42-Pounders?
All the ammo comes from lvl5 Oak of Ages providing +100% ammunition for forest battles factionwide.
Ooooh, right. I forgot that one.
Actually no. It's not a forest battle, and my Oak is only lvl 4. There's an Amber research that gives +35% ammo, and she's my Master of Supplies for an additional +30% ammo when the Hunt is on.
@@TheYannir Aaah, that explains it
I had no idea that damaged walls let you attack in one turn without siege attacker.
You don't need a battering ram when there's a hole in the wall.
A forest battle is any battle fought on a map with the terrain feature of "Forest". In magical forest regions all battles are forest battles (even sieges) because the map has only forest terrain. (Maybe also the reason why woodleves get no walls, because it would fuck the code because sieges are sieges, unless fought in open fields e.e. minor settelment battles)
Worldroots don`t count and as for jungle I don`t know.
Why are there vamp coast abilities in here!?
I am waiting for more roster tier lists, specially for old world factions
I don't know man, waystalkers seem derpier when they shoot, they seem to favor all targeting one spot in an army, it seemed like this build shoots more in a spread. Dannnnng I've got to try thiiiiis. (heh I have Ash's skill mod, ima boost range by 30% at rank 11)
Scouts shoot 2 projectiles which i think affects spread
all units with bows which fire whilst moving prioritise the same entity. If you get a mod which gives free company militia fire on the move, they will shoot properly.
The short version is that Waywatchers are accurate to a fault while Swiftshiver Shards have much lower accuracy + fire extra arrows. Waywatchers are fantastic for sniping single entities at range, but will often single out and overkill units within infantry formations, while Swiftshiver Shards are generally better at "spreading" their arrows out across a larger area (essentially missing their targets), resulting in better damage versus infantry formations while being worse at sniping small targets.
Of course, higher ranked missile units get a bonus to their accuracy. Also Waywatchers had their accuracy nerfed a little while ago, making them better at killing infantry now than they previously were while reducing their lord-sniping prowess slightly.
I’m glad it’s not just me noticing that Waywatcher’s effectiveness has really dropped off with recent updates.
Theoretically since they fire 2 arrows at once, you have the equivalent of 40 deepwood scouts firing at once on top of the arrows being magic damage which only a handful of races are actually strong in magic resistance. Them being skirmishers is good too since if they have less accuracy, their range keeps them from firing too far for accuracy to really deviate. Even when running, they lasered down Azhag with only a tiny amount actually missing.
The worldroots stance enables forest battles at all times. The waystalker is there for the eye of kurnous ability. It can be worthwhile getting multiple different heroes, just to get the different traits. Especially since different levels thereof stack. Notably, the garrison buildings of woodelves also enable similar in forest benefits. You may also wanna check the office that the general has, since it's orion.
Apparently other people seem to think otherwise... Gotta check.
Are you sure about that? During the battle the units have 41 ammo.
When Legend exits the stance, they still have 41 ammo.
World root stance doesn't count as a forest battle.
@@Joeyjoejoe1708 it doesn't? How weird
@legendoftotalwar you have to be on a terrain of Forest or Lightforest.
Legend shocked = Legend chocked. 10/10 doomstack its cheaper,its doing more dmg and deepwood scouts has 80 units vs 60... :D
What's better than lots of archers shooting arrows? More archers shooting more arrows!
You can have more than 100 missile damages with sister of Avelorn too with Princess lord from Avelorn with specials traits on the battlefield in the range of the princess . Maybe I will send you it.
A pleasant surprise to see Legend enjoy a new doom stack he wasn’t sure would be good.
Why do these guys have artillery support again
When you have your pointer over some land you get that pip window with the stats. I believe it was the top right of that window says the region and that has to say forest. Could be wrong but that is how it seems to work for me.
Awesome !
You can get the canon power ups randomly from defeating a forest encounter
When recruiting a Glade Lord with the +15% bonus range trait, I've experienced that the game bugs and doubles the value of the bonus range about half the time when recruiting a new lord, (i.e. 30% bonus range for army). Puts the swiftshiver shards over 180 attack range, waywatchers to ~230 and the glade rider archers ~200 range as well.
That would be a very nice bug... XD
Rather then an outright single unit doomstack. I think mixing the late game welf archers makes a better army. Imagine only 2 swiftsilvershards in a deepwood scout doomstack for magic attack and anti fodder work.
This would wreck savage orcs and lizardmen monster mashes I bet
Thanks for the video
Perry just like to say my computer has been broken for the past two weeks and I have been unable to play Warhammer your videos make me very happy because you play the way I love to play and it brings me great joy kissing you you absolute Legend
I did use them a lot through my campaing and never get a waywatcher
It was the bottomless quiver
WAIT how he got vampire coast battle ability, just curious !
I think either he took Zhufbar (dwarf settlement by Sylvania) or its a forest encounter from what I read in the comments. I never encountered the forest encounter that gives you that though.
It’s a forest encounter event, from the lizardmen magic forest - sacred pools or w/e it’s called.
A vampire coast army wants to test some new guns and offers to support you in battle
If you refuse they attack you instead
@@BellumCarroll Actually, you have to fight Clan Pestilents, and a vampire pirate offers his services. If you accept his offer, you get those abilities for a few turns. If you don't hire him, he will sell his services to the Skaven you have to defeat.
@@gabrielmontenegro9476 ah nice, ty for clearing that up.
9/10 for me. Cheap and powerful army.
No siege attacker. The walls were damaged
Damaged but don't have bridges
No breaches though that still needs siege attacker.
In one of initial Wood Elves campaign videos ElitchTV explains about forest : we basically have 2 types, one is on campaign map, another is on the battle map, different abilities are trigger differently, depending on the type of forest you have (map or battle field).
Nice teory lets test this and seee what happen
Has someone noticed the campaign map detail got increased in the area Legend was standing? Does it have to do with the update?
Try hovering the campaign map terrain and look at the tool tip. If it says "Light Forest" or "Forest" or "Jungle", it should count.
Jungle doesn't count as forest.
Is the sword of kain good on ikit claw I got it in my campaign and I'm pretty new so I have no idea
It's not very good, you'll hamper your economy/provinces and Ikit Claw is already a giga Chad without the SoK. Sure, he isn't amazing at 1v1s against lords, but that's why you bring the weapons teams :D
Wall strength 78% so i guess those dwarves destroyed walls in siege or using a hero?
Isn't woodelves sll about being cheap? Because they're poor
I think the double shot REALLY helps their damage effectiveness, normally if you fire 1 arrow and 3 units hit the same entity, 2 of those shots get wasted, now if you're firing at 2 enemy entities, and 1 of them dies only half your shot gets wasted. I think it helps their damage efficiency, making them strong.
Extra models alone adds 320 arrows per volley.
The amount of ammo was from wild hunt event what I can see my units when playing playing sister of twilight with a lvl 40 lord with all uppgrades have less ammo. But there is a spot for the wildhunt that gives 15% more ammo and under wild hunt it gets 30 instead. In a forest battle is should be able to have so much more ammo then 41 :D Athel loren tree max lvl gives 100% more so.
As for the forest battle uncertainty, isn't it based purely on what grid mark on the map you're on? It'll tell you forest or no when you hover over it, and it should tell you if it's a forest battle on the autoresolve screen
@LegendofTotalWar Waywatcher has the Sight beyond Sight Aura buff, which is why the lord doesn't have it. And Captain has the lower rank of Dance of Loec def aura to stack more melee def on the units, which is probably considered quite important since WE archers kinda suck at melee. And Brancwraith probably has the higher rank of MA aura.
Aye.. a fun word combo shards make the foes shiver. Do you handicap a Rank on the foe faced?
Waywatcher has lower model count as well which counts for something
yeah, he totally overlooked that
@@PG-gp5xp He did mention it a couple times, but it definitely sounded like he was underestimating just how much of a difference it is. 3 DS stacks has the same number of entities as 4 WW stacks. And there were 16 stacks of DS. If the total entity count remained the same, but stack size was equalized what sounds better: having 16 Waywatcher units with better stats, or being allowed to go over the stack limit and have 21.33 Deepwood Scout units?
It is not a discovery. This was known since day 1. "Better in some ways and worse in others'.
I thought forest battle was in forest regions
An effective army for the money? Sure. It is a bit rough to call this a doom stack, though.
whaaat flock of doom got nerfed? when? how?
yeah, I was thinking that too wtf
@@CromulentEmbiggening I know. They fixed AoE spells to correctly affect only units in their area, not units close or partially inside
Ah, I see. Yeah that makes sense, it is a bit OP if just 1 man caught inside the circle causes the whole unit to take damage.
It's strangely validating to hear Legend dis one of your favourite units since game 1 and then hear that turnabout in that first fight
don't forget it's 80 guys vs 60 guys, which means you get 33% more damage by default. Same thing with shadow warrior vs shadow walker.
That also means less space to fit your guys into, which is often an issue with ranged lines. Waywatchers are still way better due to snipe mechanic, and there's little reason to go pure missile spam anyway. You can get much more from individual ranged units by only firing couple volleys at optimal targets, while your treemen/treekin/hero core needs barely any micro, and waywatchers fit that niche just better, they fuck up dangerous single entities like no other archer unit does. They struggle against infantry due to extreme accuracy, but your life mage has that covered.
33% more possible dps would be more accurate, I think. Not necessarily overall damage. Sorta depends on what you're fighting, too. Obviously, waywatchers are going to do better against, say, dwarves.
This is one of the rarest videos you struggled a lot when comprehending and evaluating the overall situation.
Like you hesitated too much back to back to back, I think you could test it out yourself in the next campaign by giving a chance to the other units cause people seem to stack even trash units with various other stat boosting combinations/factors etc to make them somewhat reliable to a degree. I know they are not 100% convenient when it comes to difficulty and economy but we may need some fun and experimental streams along the way till WH3 release.
What I cannot understand is why people don't do mixed archer doomstacks with HEF and WEF (and similar mixed missile infantry stacks for Empire/Dwarf, for that matter)- say 6 of these and 6 waywatchers, for a front and rear line, or 5 shielded LSG plus 10 Sisters (same idea, but 3x lines), or similar. In both cases, the lord skills share 100% overlap, and each unit type provides complimentary benefits (AP/non AP dps, Anti-Large/not, etc).
Fwiw, these guys do have 33% more entities than waywatchers, which almost completely negates their AP missile damage disadvantage.
(to expand, I can understand why a DEF player or similar would not use a mixed unit stack, since the martial names of power don't benefit both darkshards and shades, etc)
The forest for the we is when u hold still the mouise pointer, some terrain info will pop. And if it says Terrain: forest or Terrain: light forest the bonus is applied
"Way watchers would be better vs a more armoured army" let me do the maths on that SS 28N 10AP, WW 6N 20AP. So when 22N=10AP is . . . 60 armour. So DS SS are better at killing things under 60 armour. But that's per model and DS SS get 33% more models.
Personally I use 2/3rds DS SS and 1/5th WW. I found it extremely annoying when my WW where putting 200 arrows into 1 Skaven slave, they where too accurate, I found the greater spread on DS SS to be much more effective.
You are comparing buffed SS with non buffed WW, of course they will look better. WW have way more damage, if buffed.
@@ArktoidFTW no I didn't, I took the base stats of both off of twwstats.
The extra 20 entities per units got to be pretty big right, vs Waywatchers?
also you said Waywatchers were better it was only good as it was cheaper you forgetting the fire 2 shots per 1 (ik you said that) but also there is 20 extra units per unit over the WW so over all there is an extra 600 shots 20 units extra fireing 2 shots etc but thats just my take
About that siege attacker.. You dont need one if the walls are already broken right?
Walls weren't broken. Just "damaged", which means reduced HP against siege weapon attacks, but no breaches to negate the need for a siege attacker. The icon would have been red, not yellow, if the walls were actually broken.
The key is that they are shooting 2 arrows at once (like Wulfhart do to their hunters). This is really powerfull, they are shooting 160 arrows in setad of the 60 for the waywatchers.
Gonna try Wood Elves next, I'll give this a go since it's cheap, could have multiple of them running around.
(Waywatchers) 60 guys vs (Deepwood Scouts) 80 guys shooting at the same time may make a huge difference too....
Hmm... definitely not bad, but not a great test scenario, because Worldroot Maps are normally plenty long enough to kill most armies while retreating. But you can be flanked, cav charges will always hit from the front (wich makes it pretty easy to kill them early). In an open field, the Lower Range would have made much more of an impact, wich in my opinion makes this a lot weaker than a Waywatcher stack.
Pretty good early game stack though, if something more powerful than archers is needed before waywatchers or treemen become available.
These guys have a 360° firing circle, so they have full firepower available in any direction while stationary. Cav flanks are far less effective when the cannot close the distance without being shot at by the entire army. XD
Swift Shivers have a higher entity count than way watchers so you get more shots off I usually put 2 units of them in with my way watchers to take out shielded units ( they have so much ammo it does not matter) while my way watchers take out armored units.
PS you get the grape shot and the 42 pounder from an event triggered by defending one of your big trees ( you have to pay like 1000 gold and win an easy battle.
The lord was from the laurelorn forest confederation hence why he had some scuffed talent selections IE the mounts
Surely best elf doom stack would be mix these with way watchers
You can see if it is a forest battle by holding over the place the lord stands and read the tooltip
It's a early doomstack until your enemy start spamming heavy armor units
Magic attacks ignore armor and cause direct damage.
@@andrewparker3329 no it doesn't
@@andrewparker3329 magic doesnt ignore armor
@@flutar3343 See my below comment.
@@andrewparker3329 I have done tests before ,it doesn't
Hi Legend . It felt like you didn't want to like this army composition regardless of how it performs . You moved several goalposts in this review that Have been staples on your rating videos.
Cost. 25% is 25% that's massive for wood elves. And in any other RYDS it would be a straight positive. You've never said "eughh skellies , grave gaurd are only 25% more to upkeep , go grave gaurd " I've never seen you so desperate to compare unit stats , you're always telling us not to judge units entirely on stats , and you tried so hard to make out that waywatchers were so better on stats alone. And gave up when you just couldn't find justification. Finally you mentioned a doom stack in the 9s can deal with three armies . This one shredded 2 with minimal damage and didn't even burn through half its ammo ! You said so yourself. This would easily have dealt with three before ammo became a ln issue , possibly even 4 ... Just a few points to consider. If you're going to rate things based on the same scale. Stick to it even if you like the factions other doom stacks more
Skeletons vs grave guard isn’t a good example given that the optimal way to play VC is to rush free skeletons. So it’s a free unit vs like 300 per unit upkeep if you have several armies
No, it would not have dealt with 3 without issue. Legend literally said why it wouldn't. This dealt with 2 without issue because it got army losses early.
The only reason it got army losses early is because they only got down to about half ammo. Missile units lose almost all of their balance of power between 50%-0% ammo. That means a third army would make them lose most of their balance of power, then likely run out of ammo and have to go into melee before army losses. And they would not do well in melee.
25% cost difference is not that huge. Skellies and grave guard is not a 25% difference. It's a 100% difference. 8.5 is a generous score for this stack.
Too much Green
"you should go down the blue line as the wood elves"
how come, are they lacking in some aspect and need a boost from the blue line?
They don't have a lot of armies, so they benefit from lightning strike, and augmenting your ambush success chance is really good for the WE.
That is a LOT of arrows
Ive always found dw scouts a decent unit.
Budgetstack?
Swiftshiver Scouts are amazing for the Sisters of Twilight campaign before you get Doomstacks, the magic attack rips through darkelves and chaos alike.
Love using these guys against savage orcs and eshin units
When I use deepwood scouts, they are more inaccurate than blind goblins.
Some ammo comes from techs i think