For our S&W Bodyguard 2.0 we had an average of 946.1 fps (extreme spread of 5.1), for the Kimber Micro 380 we had 964.3 fps for the average (extreme spread of 54.3) and for our Beretta 80x Cheetah we have 1021 fps for the average (extreme spread of 43.3). for 95 grains, that's on the higher side of velocity for 380 ACP. My belief is either Winchester needs to slow these down OR they need to redo the material or bullet design on the bullet.
@@kevinrichardson8859 Agreed, too soft. Thanks again for catching I missed my velocity testing!! I've re-edited the video and I'll upload it as a new video, something like the long version. YT kind of kills reuploads and I'd have to delete this video and all the comments but hopefully I can sneak it in without ruining this one and it will be there if people want to see it. But you have all the essential information now.
In this case, which is rare for me, brand new gel block. Could have been though. But this is also the most expansion I've had from any 380 acp round. I believe it just expanded so much and 380 acp isn't going fast enough it didn't over come the momentum. The BG2.0 round only got 2" of penetration so that makes me think its right. Of course my second test didn't repeat it so definitely could be gel or a fluke.
These are scary results. However, a bullet that shoots the bad guy and then self extracts is a novel concept. 😊A previously tested ammo in the same gel block would tell you if the poor penetration was a function of the ammo or the gel block.
OK, that was wild. I don't believe I've ever seen that happen before! Man you have the most in-depth, informative videos. Without a doubt eye opening. 🤠👍
At the end of all this testing, you should do a round up episode detemining the best 3 rounds in your opinion. Good stuff as usual man🤟 i also just picked up a ruger security 380 and it has the same 1:10 as the bodyguard, so im hoping to have so repeat performances that you get.
Will do. This will go to episode 7…but I just shot 4 more tests yesterday so 11?? 😂🤣. I chose 2-3 of the best for my first video. In hindsight I should have kept them longer. But I think you are right, another video of the best after all the evidence is there would be helpful. That’s ruger security 380 is a gun I’d love to pickup. If I find it cheap I’ll get one. Bigger than these micro guns but I’ve heard it’s easy to load, easy to rack and a very light recoiling gun. Let us know how it goes!!
@triggerbarPhD im not telling you to get it there but they may be on sale on palmetto state🙂 we really appreciate your effort in the videos and your willingness to interact with your viewers, it really sets you apart in the RUclips world!
One thing I’ve noticed with the body guard is to be careful will high pressure.380 I was testing one the other day with some warm .380 and there was lots of unburned powder and sparks flying back towards the shooter it was very un pleasant
I purchased the BG2.0 Friday and took to the range yesterday for first 100 rounds, fantastic firearm. What defense ammo would you recommend at this point after all your testing? Thanks for the great content!
hi Osmonic! So far the three top rounds have been Federal Hydra Shok Deep, Fiocchi Defense Dynamics and Underwood extreme defender, IMO. The first two are in my first episode. I'd definitely buy enough ammo though to test it. I've had issues with the extreme defender from underwood, others have not. This gun is like many different 380 acp guns and some defense (hollow point/non-FMJ) rounds make it malfunction. Just make sure what you choose words in your gun! Thanks for watching!
I believe 6 - 8 inches of penetration is the norm for this round. Unfortunately, a lot of 380 ammunition has similar performance. Either no expansion and good penetration or good expansion, but no penetration. That's why I carry Hydra-Shok Deep, it seems to strike a good balance.
Federal has that HSDeep at ~155 - 160 ft-lbs...and could even be loaded so weak, just to pass these video tests. So it's about 80% the power of this ammo. If there's one thing that allows bone to defeat a bullet, it's low power.
Seems to agree with Tools and Targets testing. The 380 that expands well, penetrates poorly. It comes down to using FMJ or a non expanding penetrator round in 380 if you want to reach FBI minimum. Those rounds expanded beautifully but 8" into bare gel is very very poor. It's better than throwing a rock but will it be enough to stop the threat?
Thanks. He is a great tester. And yup that’s the problem with 380. Such a slow round hitting that perfect balance of penetration and expansion is tough. I agree, I’d rather have this than nothing but I’d also rather have a different round or different caliber!!😂
It's clear ballistic gel, they make it. Also, I have more videos (2) with this same gel block and the rounds are normal. This stuff just expands too fast IMO. And yes, clear ballistics is more bouncy than FBI organic gel. But, you get consistency and a more clear picture with it.
In my mind, I'd give the bullet/load credit for penetration, before bounce back. There's little doubt that some form of a wound channel, kind of normal looking, formed well past the resting place. Possibly similar to, not wanting six inches of knife in one, even though it was pulled out, ouch. On the other hand, that is quite the bounce back. Personally, I wouldn't blame the gel batch, possible, but the company can't send out substandard material, knowing the testing intention. It did seem most of the 380 tests had noticable bounce back, relatively? Gotta say, I really like, appreciate the engineering put into the Federal HS Deep. Smart compromise by putting the expansion only in jacket, without any lead core. I think, it's good that you mentioned bullet length after expansion. Lehighs aside, the Federal was the only one that retained length to diameter proportions of a projectile? These flattened discs of this Win ammo may just have enough elastic bounce back velocity to beat the gel temporary wound cavity closure? Thanks TB, it was worth doing, and seeing!
Thanks Craig. That’s pretty much how I feel. Yes all of them are having what I’d call more than normal bounce back. It has to be due to the lack of momentum in these rounds (slow and relatively lightweight). It expands very well but I just want more penetration than what this is giving. And I agree, the hydra shok deep for 380 seems to have done that perfect balance between these competing desires.
That’s some wild stuff. But then I feel for Winchester. That Real Clear Ballistics nonsense is just a RUclipsr thing. None the those projectiles will ever pop out backwards out of a real target 😂. There are gazillion recipes on the interwebs that show how to make pretty clear real calibrated gel.
Hi Niko. I've gotten into some debates in the comments already. But... ;-) I agree, it won't bounce back in real tissue. But real tissue is elastic. I shot an elk and the round stuck between the "meat" or tissue, and the layer of furr/skin. To me that tells me it tried to poke out but bounced back. It would be basically un real physics to have just landed there. Real organic gel is a pain in the keester. You have to keep it at a certain temperature for it to be valid (too warm, like 70 degrees, and it starts to melt). I'm sorry but I don't like doing YT videos that much. This is hard enough with the remelting after a use. But should give a comparison between two rounds in this simulation of a simulation (organic gel), which was a simulation of shooting pigs/cadavers, which was a simulation of live tissue bodies. So... who the freak knows how this translates. In the organic gel it seems to bounce less and videos I've seen the rounds expand more. That doesn't seem to be a better thing necessarily for this round! Take care my friend just giving my thoughts, not that you didn't hear enough of them already! hahaha.
@@triggerbarPhD and don’t forget the BB calibration to make all the real nerds happy 😂. No no, believe me I get why almost everybody RUclipsr is using it. The reason that I personally don’t like it as a consumer of those already expensive and time eating tests is that it imho fails exactly with the one key reasons to use a ballistic medium - showing the differences between cartridges and bullet designs. E.g. a 380 ACP, a 9mm Luger and a 357 Sig look basically the same in Real Clear Ballistics besides the penetration depth. Which is nonsense to me. 600 ft-lb have a different effect than 250 ft-lb. physics is real 😁. The RCB pros will argue that you can see a difference if you try hard enough. But this stuff visually nivellates test results tremendously. And the bounce back is just hilarious - congratulations, that’s the first bullet fart I have ever seen
@ hahaha, bullet fart. That’s the best explanation!! Real wounding understanding still feels like a conundrum to me. Some medical articles I’ve read seem to think there is no difference except when bullets go over the 2000 fps level. They claim that’s from Red Cross data from war zones and hospital data from doctors but I would think those wouldn’t have tons of data about which bullet and cartridge were used. Like you said it makes no sense.
You count the entire penetration, not the bounce back. Think about it, it’d already done all the damage at the distance that it went and it only pulled back because of the gel.
@@triggerbarPhD it means the same amount of damage going in would happen for the distance that it retracted too. Especially if there was a hollow point ridge or petals coming back. But I do not believe that would happen in a body cavity once the outer skin and muscle had been penetrated.
@@toadranger50 agreed. I do believe the body is elastic (temporary wound cavity is that example which has been proven medically. I also don't believe a bullet doing this "damage" in live tissue would ever bounce out. But I tend to believe the cutting shown in the gel is probably real, as much as we can believe the gel to be close to live tissue and thats a different debate.
@@toadranger50 I agree, however, I'm going to be discussing this tonight and will go into the evidence for how elastic some tissue is (skin, muscle, lung tissue, bowel wall, etc..) while other is less (organs).
I would re-shoot that same gel block with an ammo that you have shot into gel before that gave you good results and see if you get a different result with that block. Just to be sure it is not the block itself. IMHO
I've seen Extreme Defender 380 come back out of the gel and hit the guy in the leg. I'll try to reply to myself with the title, channel and approx time, and see if it allows it to post...
amazing, never ever imagined that situation. The gel farted the bullet out...... shot explosive diarrhea. Man, even those old Russian Silver Bear are looking better......
hahahaha, exactly! I had never seen that before, I didn't believe it. When editing the video I realized why I never found the bullet, I was looking TOO CLOSE to the gel, lol, I should have looked closer to where I was kneeling. crazy.
Energy ft/lb dose not cause mechanical damage directly, but what it is, is energy. Energy is required to push a certisn diameter to a certian depth in a consistent media given a particular profile. The profile will make very little difference compared to the diameter. For a 380, the max diameter to achieve 12" in organic gel is roughly 0.45" from a 2.75-3.3" barrel. Controlled expansion that marginal might not even be seen in synthetic gel that is 0% water, leading some to belive it will not expand in the real world. So manufacturers want the clear gel test to show expansion, so what you end up with is limited penetration. This can even be seen with 9 hst and gold dot. To achive 16" with 9, you want bo more than 0.6" as a rile of thumb. You will generally see more expansion and less penetration in organic gel (or more organic media). 90gr xtp might look as good in clear gel but it is the answer for 380. You want to be 950-1000fps ideally. If it dosent hit 12" in clear gel i would cautious of any option. 124 hst often hit 15" in clear gel but only 10" in bare organic and 13" with heavy clothing and 0.7-0.8 diameter in organic gel. Some data with general rules, hope it helps someone
Very much so, thanks Dylan. I’ve been reading old ballistic reports and gel tests, data verifying organic gel tests and differences between clear ballistics synthetic gel and organic FBI gel. I agree with what you are saying from all that I’ve read. With all of that, I still like federal hydra shok deep. Doesn’t over expand. Not sure I have a XTP yet but I do have the FTX coming up next! (Caution, I shot and edited and produced these videos probably before I should have so my comments may not “gel” with my current understanding. 🤷♂️
@@triggerbarPhD looking at your test with the hydro shock deep it is over 0.45 in clear gel. You want 0.45 in organic gel that will expand the bullet more than clear. Maybe in organic gel it would peel the petals all the way back and reduce the diameter but your back to the same range. Generally speaking the star pattern, wide expansion seen in clear gel is not a good design. Some of the absolute best performers have a ftx/xtp deformed cylinder shape that is far less drag. This includes a lot of Winchester rounds of various names and calibers. Our lying eyes want to see the beautiful star in clear gel, but that isn't backed up by the real data from my observations
@@dylanholbrook6239 Thanks Dyln. Yes in organic gel it will expand more but penetrate less. But I don't think we will see more expansion with this bullet and it's unique design to have the solid spike core in the middle which helps generate more penetration. If we'd see more expansion in the organic gel with the BG2.0 then we would have seen it with the longer, higher velocity shot with the Beretta, which we didn't. Sigh, I really don't want to use organic gel...
Understood. It's a simulation of FBI gel, which is a simulation of corpses and pig bodies, which was a simulation of shooting actual live tissue. At that point you have estimates upon estimates that introduces error. I'm not making gel and keeping at temperature for testing. And this provides at least a way to test different ammunition and compare them while the actual performance may varry. I've seen that in FBI gel, hollow points open more than in this gel. That makes me even more worried about this ammo. Additionally, while it was crazy that it bounced back, I know that wouldn't happen in live tissue but would it go more than 8" in tissue? And is that enough? Some here think its plenty penetration. That's gonna be a personal choice!
@triggerbarPhD Are you kidding me? Never seen it happen hunting and I do a lot of hunting and I absolutely cut carefully to see what the round has done
@@timjohnson8390 sorry I didn’t mean to offend. I’ve not seen it in the animals I’ve hunted either but I’ve always used much more powerful rounds. In some sense this temporary expansion and bounce back is basically just temporary wound channels.
@timjohnson8390 one other thought, this would be hard to see. I shot an elk where the bullet was laying just between the skin and the meat. Do I know it didn’t push out and then expand back? I mean that’s how physics works with elastic media. We just, at least I don’t have a lot motion camera on game to see it.
2 inches? That's not the depth of that bullet. That gel is known for bullet bounce back. 8 inches is about right for that bullet, because it expands very wide 60 plus caliber. The round doesn't bounce back in real calibrated ballistic gel. You also need some clothing in front of the gel unless you're going to only shoot naked people. What works in bare gel doesn't always work with clothing.
Okay. First, I showed all of it. Second, skin and tissue is absolutely elastic and there is bounce back in tissue all the time. Why do you think something gets stuck between the muscle and the skin on game and humans? It's elastic and bounces back. I agree, tissue and organic gel isn't this elastic. Also clear ballistics gets about 40% more penetration than organic gel and bullets expand MORE in organic gel. So factor those both in as well. Finally....Clothing only has impact on hollow point expansion, that is taken from the journal articles written by the authors who made the organic gel tests for the FBI. Clothing isn't some kind of armor but it does tend to clog the bullet, just like fur does when hunting. For 380 ACP, the worst thing a hollow point can do is expand too quick and under penetrate (well, causing a jam in your gun is probably worse and perhaps more common for 380's). 380ACP is so anemic we have to find a round that balances expansion and penetration. This test is showing the one extreme, and when we are looking at JHP, the worst of it.
I'm not a big Winchester fan but it's done ok on other channels. This looks like a bad block of gel. The bounce back is the worst I've ever seen in any test on any channel.
Very well could be. Brand new gel block from clear ballistics. Could be a bad batch but I tested more rounds after this one and they performed as expected, so I kind of doubt that. This had too much expansion, too fast and 380 acp is slow. That's my theory. Also, as shown it wasn't repeatable as a second shot got 6" (which is still terrible but given the expansion understandable). So could just be a fluke but still crazy. (my next video on Thursday will be testing hornady critical defense and it performs fine (well wish it had more penetration but waaaay better than this round). I also tested Federal Punch in this gel block and it got excellent penetration.
I've watched lots of gel tests. I've never seen a round bounce backward out of the gel. 😮 The rounds looked great, but the penetration was terrible. Thanks, Trigger Bar. 👊👍🫡🇺🇲
Thanks GreyShooter. I mean the expansion was fantastic. Yah, it over expanded or expanded too rapidly with not enough power to get it in deep enough. Crazy.
I've seen it (extreme defender 380)...this super-duper awesome sensering big-brother platform not allowing users to post links to their own platform apparently won't allow me to post the link...or maybe it's big-daddy TBP suppressing? hah
Trigger there was no velocity recordings? Did i miss them? This could have helped explain the performances??
WOW. I have that film but go so caught up in the gel I forgot to include that. Gosh I better leave a pinned comment, thanks for catching this. UGH!!!!
Hmmm, I may post those results in this chat and put out another video today with that included. Wow, that was a big miss by me....
For our S&W Bodyguard 2.0 we had an average of 946.1 fps (extreme spread of 5.1), for the Kimber Micro 380 we had 964.3 fps for the average (extreme spread of 54.3) and for our Beretta 80x Cheetah we have 1021 fps for the average (extreme spread of 43.3). for 95 grains, that's on the higher side of velocity for 380 ACP. My belief is either Winchester needs to slow these down OR they need to redo the material or bullet design on the bullet.
@triggerbarPhD likely a softer bullet alloy
@@kevinrichardson8859 Agreed, too soft. Thanks again for catching I missed my velocity testing!! I've re-edited the video and I'll upload it as a new video, something like the long version. YT kind of kills reuploads and I'd have to delete this video and all the comments but hopefully I can sneak it in without ruining this one and it will be there if people want to see it. But you have all the essential information now.
The bounce back is typical in Clear Ballistics.
These rounds opened up so much, more than any other round I tested. Wouldn’t do that in a human but that’s a LOT of bounce back.
Makes me wonder if the gel is out of spec somehow. Never seen so much bounce back
In this case, which is rare for me, brand new gel block. Could have been though. But this is also the most expansion I've had from any 380 acp round. I believe it just expanded so much and 380 acp isn't going fast enough it didn't over come the momentum. The BG2.0 round only got 2" of penetration so that makes me think its right. Of course my second test didn't repeat it so definitely could be gel or a fluke.
These are scary results. However, a bullet that shoots the bad guy and then self extracts is a novel concept. 😊A previously tested ammo in the same gel block would tell you if the poor penetration was a function of the ammo or the gel block.
Interesting and informative. Thank you for testing and sharing. 👍
Thanks Ted, I really appreciate your comments!!
OK, that was wild. I don't believe I've ever seen that happen before! Man you have the most in-depth, informative videos. Without a doubt eye opening. 🤠👍
Hahaha well that’s very kind of you Ron, this was shocked me!!
This is exactly why I carry ball ammo in my .380’s. Great video TBP 🤠
This round is the poster child for that philosophy! lol. Thanks my friend!!
At the end of all this testing, you should do a round up episode detemining the best 3 rounds in your opinion. Good stuff as usual man🤟 i also just picked up a ruger security 380 and it has the same 1:10 as the bodyguard, so im hoping to have so repeat performances that you get.
Will do. This will go to episode 7…but I just shot 4 more tests yesterday so 11?? 😂🤣. I chose 2-3 of the best for my first video. In hindsight I should have kept them longer. But I think you are right, another video of the best after all the evidence is there would be helpful. That’s ruger security 380 is a gun I’d love to pickup. If I find it cheap I’ll get one. Bigger than these micro guns but I’ve heard it’s easy to load, easy to rack and a very light recoiling gun. Let us know how it goes!!
@triggerbarPhD im not telling you to get it there but they may be on sale on palmetto state🙂 we really appreciate your effort in the videos and your willingness to interact with your viewers, it really sets you apart in the RUclips world!
@Millzspec okay now I’m looking 😂🤣
One thing I’ve noticed with the body guard is to be careful will high pressure.380 I was testing one the other day with some warm .380 and there was lots of unburned powder and sparks flying back towards the shooter it was very un pleasant
Yuck, thanks for that warning Arthur!!
That was some pretty wild results, great video Trigger Bar
Hi Chris! Right! Crazy.
I purchased the BG2.0 Friday and took to the range yesterday for first 100 rounds, fantastic firearm. What defense ammo would you recommend at this point after all your testing? Thanks for the great content!
hi Osmonic! So far the three top rounds have been Federal Hydra Shok Deep, Fiocchi Defense Dynamics and Underwood extreme defender, IMO. The first two are in my first episode. I'd definitely buy enough ammo though to test it. I've had issues with the extreme defender from underwood, others have not. This gun is like many different 380 acp guns and some defense (hollow point/non-FMJ) rounds make it malfunction. Just make sure what you choose words in your gun! Thanks for watching!
@@triggerbarPhD thank you!
I believe 6 - 8 inches of penetration is the norm for this round. Unfortunately, a lot of 380 ammunition has similar performance. Either no expansion and good penetration or good expansion, but no penetration. That's why I carry Hydra-Shok Deep, it seems to strike a good balance.
Well summarized. That’s the round I carry for exactly this reason as you stated.
Federal has that HSDeep at ~155 - 160 ft-lbs...and could even be loaded so weak, just to pass these video tests. So it's about 80% the power of this ammo.
If there's one thing that allows bone to defeat a bullet, it's low power.
@@ShastaBean well, we'll have to check bone then, I'm pretty sure I've seen it beat that.
Accurate video. Am also eager for lasers to be made to fit the bodyguard-2.
Thanks! Yah I wonder when those are coming?
wow interesting round thanks for video. note to self use any fmj over this round as it might come back at me.
hahahahaha, exactly!! I mean even at 6" it's terrible.
The expansion is nice. It seems like a gel issue
One of the best expanders that I tested. I did test other rounds (see my next test) in this same gel block and they got much deeper penetration.
Seems to agree with Tools and Targets testing. The 380 that expands well, penetrates poorly. It comes down to using FMJ or a non expanding penetrator round in 380 if you want to reach FBI minimum.
Those rounds expanded beautifully but 8" into bare gel is very very poor.
It's better than throwing a rock but will it be enough to stop the threat?
Thanks. He is a great tester. And yup that’s the problem with 380. Such a slow round hitting that perfect balance of penetration and expansion is tough. I agree, I’d rather have this than nothing but I’d also rather have a different round or different caliber!!😂
That was amazing that one bullet came back out. That stuff is garbage. Curious. What does a block of that gel cost? Good job on the video.
Thanks Rich. Gel is about $90 plus shipping. Clear Ballistics is the name of the company, this is the 10% "FBI" block 16x6x6.
Is your gel mix correct? Seems oddly rubbery.
It's clear ballistic gel, they make it. Also, I have more videos (2) with this same gel block and the rounds are normal. This stuff just expands too fast IMO. And yes, clear ballistics is more bouncy than FBI organic gel. But, you get consistency and a more clear picture with it.
In my mind, I'd give the bullet/load credit for penetration, before bounce back. There's little doubt that some form of a wound channel, kind of normal looking, formed well past the resting place. Possibly similar to, not wanting six inches of knife in one, even though it was pulled out, ouch.
On the other hand, that is quite the bounce back. Personally, I wouldn't blame the gel batch, possible, but the company can't send out substandard material, knowing the testing intention. It did seem most of the 380 tests had noticable bounce back, relatively?
Gotta say, I really like, appreciate the engineering put into the Federal HS Deep. Smart compromise by putting the expansion only in jacket, without any lead core. I think, it's good that you mentioned bullet length after expansion. Lehighs aside, the Federal was the only one that retained length to diameter proportions of a projectile?
These flattened discs of this Win ammo may just have enough elastic bounce back velocity to beat the gel temporary wound cavity closure? Thanks TB, it was worth doing, and seeing!
Thanks Craig. That’s pretty much how I feel. Yes all of them are having what I’d call more than normal bounce back. It has to be due to the lack of momentum in these rounds (slow and relatively lightweight). It expands very well but I just want more penetration than what this is giving. And I agree, the hydra shok deep for 380 seems to have done that perfect balance between these competing desires.
I've avoided Winchester for years (other than PDX defender in .223). This is just another reason.
I agree!
That’s some wild stuff. But then I feel for Winchester. That Real Clear Ballistics nonsense is just a RUclipsr thing. None the those projectiles will ever pop out backwards out of a real target 😂. There are gazillion recipes on the interwebs that show how to make pretty clear real calibrated gel.
Hi Niko. I've gotten into some debates in the comments already. But... ;-) I agree, it won't bounce back in real tissue. But real tissue is elastic. I shot an elk and the round stuck between the "meat" or tissue, and the layer of furr/skin. To me that tells me it tried to poke out but bounced back. It would be basically un real physics to have just landed there.
Real organic gel is a pain in the keester. You have to keep it at a certain temperature for it to be valid (too warm, like 70 degrees, and it starts to melt). I'm sorry but I don't like doing YT videos that much. This is hard enough with the remelting after a use. But should give a comparison between two rounds in this simulation of a simulation (organic gel), which was a simulation of shooting pigs/cadavers, which was a simulation of live tissue bodies. So... who the freak knows how this translates. In the organic gel it seems to bounce less and videos I've seen the rounds expand more. That doesn't seem to be a better thing necessarily for this round!
Take care my friend just giving my thoughts, not that you didn't hear enough of them already! hahaha.
@@triggerbarPhD and don’t forget the BB calibration to make all the real nerds happy 😂. No no, believe me I get why almost everybody RUclipsr is using it. The reason that I personally don’t like it as a consumer of those already expensive and time eating tests is that it imho fails exactly with the one key reasons to use a ballistic medium - showing the differences between cartridges and bullet designs. E.g. a 380 ACP, a 9mm Luger and a 357 Sig look basically the same in Real Clear Ballistics besides the penetration depth. Which is nonsense to me. 600 ft-lb have a different effect than 250 ft-lb. physics is real 😁. The RCB pros will argue that you can see a difference if you try hard enough. But this stuff visually nivellates test results tremendously. And the bounce back is just hilarious - congratulations, that’s the first bullet fart I have ever seen
@ hahaha, bullet fart. That’s the best explanation!! Real wounding understanding still feels like a conundrum to me. Some medical articles I’ve read seem to think there is no difference except when bullets go over the 2000 fps level. They claim that’s from Red Cross data from war zones and hospital data from doctors but I would think those wouldn’t have tons of data about which bullet and cartridge were used. Like you said it makes no sense.
You count the entire penetration, not the bounce back. Think about it, it’d already done all the damage at the distance that it went and it only pulled back because of the gel.
That seems reasonable. I do think the large amount of bounce back does mean something, just not sure what it means though! Lol
@@triggerbarPhD it means the same amount of damage going in would happen for the distance that it retracted too. Especially if there was a hollow point ridge or petals coming back. But I do not believe that would happen in a body cavity once the outer skin and muscle had been penetrated.
@@toadranger50 agreed. I do believe the body is elastic (temporary wound cavity is that example which has been proven medically. I also don't believe a bullet doing this "damage" in live tissue would ever bounce out. But I tend to believe the cutting shown in the gel is probably real, as much as we can believe the gel to be close to live tissue and thats a different debate.
@@toadranger50 I agree, however, I'm going to be discussing this tonight and will go into the evidence for how elastic some tissue is (skin, muscle, lung tissue, bowel wall, etc..) while other is less (organs).
Defense against your own bullets? Elitely.
hahahaha, that's hilarious.
I would re-shoot that same gel block with an ammo that you have shot into gel before that gave you good results and see if you get a different result with that block. Just to be sure it is not the block itself. IMHO
Already done and you can see that Thursday. It’s normal. Just this ammo.
@@triggerbarPhD
That's some pretty sad ammo then. Good job TBP
That’s what I’m thinking. Thanks!
Well you can use that projo twice if you managed to find it 😂
Totally flat, it’s no good but I were quicker I could have caught it! 🤣😂
I've seen Extreme Defender 380 come back out of the gel and hit the guy in the leg. I'll try to reply to myself with the title, channel and approx time, and see if it allows it to post...
LCP MAX 380: G9 EHP vs Xtreme Defender in and out of gel
Modern Ammo channel
at ~ 3 min 06 sec
ruclips.net/video/zkLUmH4muO8/видео.html
Very interesting and had pretty good penetration but as I heard him say that was one of his reloads. Underloaded maybe?
Howdy trigger, got coffee on?😊
Thanks for stopping by Brad, so good to hear from you!! Not a coffee drinker but morning get up and out drink is happening!!
Hey ohh how is going
Hi Arthur!!
amazing, never ever imagined that situation. The gel farted the bullet out...... shot explosive diarrhea. Man, even those old Russian Silver Bear are looking better......
hahahaha, exactly! I had never seen that before, I didn't believe it. When editing the video I realized why I never found the bullet, I was looking TOO CLOSE to the gel, lol, I should have looked closer to where I was kneeling. crazy.
Energy ft/lb dose not cause mechanical damage directly, but what it is, is energy. Energy is required to push a certisn diameter to a certian depth in a consistent media given a particular profile. The profile will make very little difference compared to the diameter. For a 380, the max diameter to achieve 12" in organic gel is roughly 0.45" from a 2.75-3.3" barrel. Controlled expansion that marginal might not even be seen in synthetic gel that is 0% water, leading some to belive it will not expand in the real world. So manufacturers want the clear gel test to show expansion, so what you end up with is limited penetration. This can even be seen with 9 hst and gold dot. To achive 16" with 9, you want bo more than 0.6" as a rile of thumb. You will generally see more expansion and less penetration in organic gel (or more organic media).
90gr xtp might look as good in clear gel but it is the answer for 380. You want to be 950-1000fps ideally.
If it dosent hit 12" in clear gel i would cautious of any option. 124 hst often hit 15" in clear gel but only 10" in bare organic and 13" with heavy clothing and 0.7-0.8 diameter in organic gel.
Some data with general rules, hope it helps someone
Very much so, thanks Dylan. I’ve been reading old ballistic reports and gel tests, data verifying organic gel tests and differences between clear ballistics synthetic gel and organic FBI gel. I agree with what you are saying from all that I’ve read. With all of that, I still like federal hydra shok deep. Doesn’t over expand. Not sure I have a XTP yet but I do have the FTX coming up next! (Caution, I shot and edited and produced these videos probably before I should have so my comments may not “gel” with my current understanding. 🤷♂️
@@triggerbarPhD looking at your test with the hydro shock deep it is over 0.45 in clear gel. You want 0.45 in organic gel that will expand the bullet more than clear. Maybe in organic gel it would peel the petals all the way back and reduce the diameter but your back to the same range. Generally speaking the star pattern, wide expansion seen in clear gel is not a good design. Some of the absolute best performers have a ftx/xtp deformed cylinder shape that is far less drag. This includes a lot of Winchester rounds of various names and calibers. Our lying eyes want to see the beautiful star in clear gel, but that isn't backed up by the real data from my observations
@@dylanholbrook6239 Thanks Dyln. Yes in organic gel it will expand more but penetrate less. But I don't think we will see more expansion with this bullet and it's unique design to have the solid spike core in the middle which helps generate more penetration. If we'd see more expansion in the organic gel with the BG2.0 then we would have seen it with the longer, higher velocity shot with the Beretta, which we didn't. Sigh, I really don't want to use organic gel...
suddenly 38 5 wheel, looking btr. Even 22mag.
LOL right??
Clear gel is an insufficient medium for testing. It does not approximate fbi gel whatsoever.
Understood. It's a simulation of FBI gel, which is a simulation of corpses and pig bodies, which was a simulation of shooting actual live tissue. At that point you have estimates upon estimates that introduces error. I'm not making gel and keeping at temperature for testing. And this provides at least a way to test different ammunition and compare them while the actual performance may varry. I've seen that in FBI gel, hollow points open more than in this gel. That makes me even more worried about this ammo. Additionally, while it was crazy that it bounced back, I know that wouldn't happen in live tissue but would it go more than 8" in tissue? And is that enough? Some here think its plenty penetration. That's gonna be a personal choice!
That bounce back wont happen in the body
Why do you say that? The human tissue is VERY elastic.
agreed.
@triggerbarPhD Are you kidding me? Never seen it happen hunting and I do a lot of hunting and I absolutely cut carefully to see what the round has done
@@timjohnson8390 sorry I didn’t mean to offend. I’ve not seen it in the animals I’ve hunted either but I’ve always used much more powerful rounds. In some sense this temporary expansion and bounce back is basically just temporary wound channels.
@timjohnson8390 one other thought, this would be hard to see. I shot an elk where the bullet was laying just between the skin and the meat. Do I know it didn’t push out and then expand back? I mean that’s how physics works with elastic media. We just, at least I don’t have a lot motion camera on game to see it.
We have some 9mm short testing I see.
Hahaha yup. Short being a great description!!
2 inches? That's not the depth of that bullet. That gel is known for bullet bounce back. 8 inches is about right for that bullet, because it expands very wide 60 plus caliber. The round doesn't bounce back in real calibrated ballistic gel. You also need some clothing in front of the gel unless you're going to only shoot naked people. What works in bare gel doesn't always work with clothing.
Okay. First, I showed all of it. Second, skin and tissue is absolutely elastic and there is bounce back in tissue all the time. Why do you think something gets stuck between the muscle and the skin on game and humans? It's elastic and bounces back. I agree, tissue and organic gel isn't this elastic. Also clear ballistics gets about 40% more penetration than organic gel and bullets expand MORE in organic gel. So factor those both in as well.
Finally....Clothing only has impact on hollow point expansion, that is taken from the journal articles written by the authors who made the organic gel tests for the FBI. Clothing isn't some kind of armor but it does tend to clog the bullet, just like fur does when hunting. For 380 ACP, the worst thing a hollow point can do is expand too quick and under penetrate (well, causing a jam in your gun is probably worse and perhaps more common for 380's). 380ACP is so anemic we have to find a round that balances expansion and penetration. This test is showing the one extreme, and when we are looking at JHP, the worst of it.
Wow, I can't believe anyone would buy that junk.
I wouldn’t. Others here seem to think it’s fine. I will remain that I want more penetration.
I'm not a big Winchester fan but it's done ok on other channels. This looks like a bad block of gel. The bounce back is the worst I've ever seen in any test on any channel.
Very well could be. Brand new gel block from clear ballistics. Could be a bad batch but I tested more rounds after this one and they performed as expected, so I kind of doubt that. This had too much expansion, too fast and 380 acp is slow. That's my theory. Also, as shown it wasn't repeatable as a second shot got 6" (which is still terrible but given the expansion understandable). So could just be a fluke but still crazy. (my next video on Thursday will be testing hornady critical defense and it performs fine (well wish it had more penetration but waaaay better than this round). I also tested Federal Punch in this gel block and it got excellent penetration.
Dang, not so elite is it. 🤣
😂🤣 nope!
I've watched lots of gel tests. I've never seen a round bounce backward out of the gel. 😮 The rounds looked great, but the penetration was terrible. Thanks, Trigger Bar. 👊👍🫡🇺🇲
Thanks GreyShooter. I mean the expansion was fantastic. Yah, it over expanded or expanded too rapidly with not enough power to get it in deep enough. Crazy.
I've seen it (extreme defender 380)...this super-duper awesome sensering big-brother platform not allowing users to post links to their own platform apparently won't allow me to post the link...or maybe it's big-daddy TBP suppressing? hah
@ShastaBean dang did I forget about it? Text it to me and I’ll post it Shasta!!
ruclips.net/video/zkLUmH4muO8/видео.html