Great information, and very important to know for all players because, as you said, judges are human and humans make mistakes. Also, thanks for the shoutout
It's kinda funny to me that the head judge has so much power that they can technically at the start of the event say that all Island tap for Red(of course no judge would ever do that, but the possibility is still there).
Any rulings that absurd though would really jeopardize that judges career as a judge, while at that event sure whatever he said would stand it would be the most bizarre and outlandish event ever. Keep in mind in cases where a head judge makes a wrong ruling and it heavily impacts the tournament they can face repercussions.
Technically they have that power, but in actuality? The participants, organizers, any any other stakeholders involved would complain about such a stupid ruling. Revolution is always an option.
@@LibertyMonk There also is no incentive to do this, it's extremely hard to rise to the higher level of judge in MTG. Many of these judges spend 1000's of hours honing their skills and working at tournaments to get to level 4 or level 5 judge which only a handful of in the world exist.
During the Streets of New Capenna prerelease I had a pretty sweet Jetmir tokens deck. My opponent cast Unexpected Detour and said that he got to choose to put my Jetmir to the bottom. I knew from similar rulings on similar cards that I got to pick to put it on top or bottom, but the judge incorrectly sided with my opponent. Still won the game (lost the match) but it was annoying. After the match before the next round I pulled up the ruling on a similar card on gatherer to show the judge. He apologized and explained how he was thinking of a ruling on a similar card that was worded just differently enough to make a difference. So all three of us learned more about the rules that day.
Prereleases are hard for everyone unfortunately, so many new card 😅 The worst thing in the world for a Judge is to get something wrong and potentially ruin someone's game. But at least there was firm handshakes all 'round at the end by the sounds 😀
One of my favorite miss rulings is the interaction between Evoke and having a sacrifice outlet. You can still sacrifice/exile the evoke creature as it ETB's and get it's evoke "ETB" resolved as it goes on the stack regardless if it's sacrificed/exiled through another card or it's own evoke trigger to sacrifice itself.
Wasn't in MTG, but actually, in a Yu-Gi-Oh tournament, I went to I had this happen to me. I made a play that went for game and TLDR I activated a card that needs a specific creature in play to cast. My opponent responded with enemy controller, and I explained that it didn't matter as it just needed to be there for activation and no resolution. Guy disagrees, judge is called and makes the incorrect ruling, but thankfully, back then, there was an official website with almost the exact interaction that I could reference and direct the judge to. After he took a minute to study it, he came back making the correct ruling and even gave me a free pack for proving him wrong.
The odds of this (a judge giving an incorrect ruling) happening at a semi-major event are small, especially during top 8 when ALL of the judges are watching 4 or fewer games. But it's good to keep in mind what you can do if this does happen 🙂
I still remember I was at the MoM prerelease and was about to win the 3rd and final match, which would have me in 1st for the whole event. I was 1-1 and made a misplay accidentally giving my opponent another turn when I could have just ended the game with Chandra, but I was at 18 life so it was alright. But then my opponent played City On Fire and attacked me with a 7/7 with trample. I blocked with 3 toughness, and I said "Ok, I take 12", but my opponent and the judge (Formerly official years ago but worked at the store) said that "the creature would deal 7 damage to the 3 toughness creature, triple to 21, and then hit me for 18. Despite my arguing about how that's not how City on Fire or trample works, I had to take the loss and came in second. I'm still a bit salty about that but yeah, that's my experience in this kind of situation.
Trample is actually a may ability. The creature doesn't HAVE to trample over to the player. 702.19b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any excess damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player, planeswalker, or battle the creature is attacking. So while the opponent can choose to deal 7, tripled to 21, damage to the 3 toughness creature, you are right that the excess 18 damage doesn't trample over, because the initial 7 was all dealt to the creature and then tripled.
Replacement effects take effect on outcomes, not inputs. They can't get in the way of the internal workings of how Trample functions; they only replace the final result. Trample cannot 'look ahead' and see that the replacement will take place at some point in the process, then come back into itself and assign all those new numbers. It knows how much combat damage is available to it based on the creature's power, and how much toughness the creature blocking it has, and then allows you to assign the excess to the defending player/planeswalker/battle in the same manner as you would to a second blocking creature. Importantly, damage assignment occurs just before damage is actually dealt, and is not the same part of the process. The damage tripling replacement effect generated by City on fire affects specifically and only damage dealt, not damage assigned. The 7-power creature with trample does not have 21 combat damage to assign; it has 7. Once that damage is all assigned and the process moves forwards to actually dealing the damage, the replacement effect is applied and triples all of those numbers being dealt to the same entities and/or objects each allotment was already respectively assigned to. The first ruling for City on Fire on Gatherer is this one: (4/14/2023) -- While you control City on Fire, if a creature you control with trample would deal combat damage to a blocking creature, you must assign its unmodified damage. For example, a 3/3 creature with trample blocked by a 2/2 creature can have 1 damage assigned to the defending player. It will then deal 6 damage to the blocking creature (2 tripled) and 3 to the defending player (1 tripled). Incidentally, I now badly want to hear an homage to "The Missile Knows Where It Is" but for Magic the Gathering rules.
i wish i was told this information back when i was learning how to play the commander format while also doing commander tournaments (with prizes on the line, as basically the only way i could play the game with other people). The judge at the time, would purposely tell me bad rulings and disadvantage me and i had no idea how i could go about dealing with the corrupt judge who was specifically targeting me at the time. Thankfully, some of the other players there gained some sympathy for me and were also annoyed at my mistreatment. One of my favorite interactions is when i'd have to stand behind someone who smelt of sewage. i informed the judge, then later, got into a seemingly casual conversation about smelling offensive and the judge would mention to let him know if someone smells bad, but in a way to imply my friend and i had never informed him properly of someone else's terrible odor. it really felt like there was nothing i could do except hope the LGS changed the judge, or just stop going to the LGS. Eventually, the judge person was changed. i felt like that judge would excuse others bad behavior and odor but happily punish me. i'll never forget two games in particular, had to call him over to explain how Archfiend of Ifnir works, while my opponents continued after to ignore the judges rulings and explanation of how Archfiend of Ifnir works. The other game oh you should had seen his face, i was playing a weird "mill" deck that while one of the ways it can win is by milling out the opponents decks, it can win through milling itself. And if it wasn't for the other players yelling at him to "let me cook" as the opponent in my game gave the judge as much opportunity as possible to "disqualify me" i then milled myself and presented a win condition. My opponents in disbelief after milling myself X amount of cards (which thankfully was one at a time) i was going through the cards in my now graveyard to see how i can win that game. i know this turned into a wall of text, this was if nothing else therapeutic for me to type. if you read the whole thing, thank you for your time. This comment existing helps get this "off my chest."
In my first tournament ever, back in the 90s, I was fighting for a top 8 spot (just a local tournament, not in the US).. I won game 1, game 2 I was about to win, opponent was with low life, and I had a karma, and he had several swamps - he'd lose the game on his upkeep. Then opponent floated all his mana and cast a Kaervek's spite. I said okay, that's a play to avoid death by karma. I was about to note me losing 5 life when he said "wait - in response, I cast another Kaervek's spite). I was at 8 life, so I'd lose the game. Of course, I argued that he couldn't respond with the 2nd spite, because he'd have to discard to pay for the 1st one. Judge was called, and he initially was ruling in my favour. Then my opponent talked with the judge (I don't know what he argued). Judge ruled in my opponent's favour. I ended up losing game 3 and was out of the top 8. That hurt. I knew I was right, but not a lot I could do. Funny thing is, I ended up pairing against the judge, who was playing a pre-release (Weatheelight, I have the promo card to this day), and won the game, which was very satisfying. I wish I had said : well, that's karma", but I'll be honest, I only thought of that after the moment was gone lol
Oof. I hate being caught out on Priority/Phase technicalities. I had that happen to me once where I went to blow up my opponents land with a Lux Cannon at the end of the turn. But the guy I was playing, a known arsehole, managed to sweet talk the Judge that I somehow did it at the end of his 2nd Main Phase, which then allowed him to tap the mana and cast a sorcery speed spell. I went on to lose the match and it knocked me out of top 8 contention. Knowing what I know now, I would have called a Head Judge to restate my case without the pressure of the opponent staring into my soul 😂
@@attackoncardboard I feel you. I'll be honest I had no idea there was a head judge or that I could appeal them... well,.at least we have stories to tell, and can use them to teach! thanks for the video.
I was in a commander tournament at my local shop playing Sharuum the Hegemon infinite combo. I had phyrexian metaphorph on the board as a copy of Sharuum, and had disciple of the vault in play. Demonstrated the combo loop, asked if anyone had interaction and said good game, but all three of the older and more experienced opponents said the ETB effect would not be able to target itself. I was 19 and home from college, so not a regular at this point. I disagreed and the shop owner who acted as judge agreed with them after light googling. I know it was generally low stakes, but it UPSET me since it shot down the point of my entire deck. I went home and spent 3 hours researching rules and writing out a response before realizing it wasn't worth having a tantrum about. Thinking about it still still mildly infuriates me though and it is a reason I have on my list for wanting to learn to be a proper judge. lol
The thing to remember about situations like this is that judges are human. No matter how skilled they are, they will make mistakes especially in something as complicated as magic. As frustrating as it is a calm, reasonable discussion about the situation is what will most likely resolve it correctly. An angry confrontation will make it harder for the judge to themselves stay reasonable and objectively review possible mistakes. That's true of all competitive events really, but it's really hard to remember that in the moment when something you're so emotionally invested in could go south due to a possible error.
The thing that is crazy about magic is that there are so many rules and interactions that whenever something weird comes up, almost any answer is believable. The trigger got countered and the card stays in play with no counters on it... hmmm... makes sense. The battle has zero counters so it goes in the graveyard... hmmm... makes sense.
"This is exactly what happened to Yuta Takahashi-" Me: Ha, Faerie Mastermind got printed, so I know how this- "...in the Outlaws of Thunder Junction Pro Tour". Me: 😮
@@attackoncardboard I think the idea was that it was assumed the video was going to deal with an incident occurring in the World Championship which Takahashi won and thereafter designed Faerie Mastermind, and if that assumption was correct then therefore we viewers would already know that whatever the mistake was, it didn't prevent him from ultimately winning that tournament. However, that was an incorrect assumption, because the end of that sentence in the video identifies the event being discussed as a different tournament which happened well afterward. (Maybe there was another incident during that tournament, though, and I didn't hear about or am failing to recall it.)
I remember a similar situation happening to a friend while playing in Standard, when Hostage Taker was still legal. He cast Hostage Taker to exile an opponent's creature and then cast it from exile. However, his opponent destroyed the pirate and claimed that, by doing so, their creature returned under their control. They called a judge to resolve the situation, and the judge ruled in favor of the opponent. According to the rules, when my friend cast the creature, it was considered a new object, so the judge made a mistake. This cost him the game, and these types of situations tend to occur more frequently in prerelease events. That's why I usually keep the set mechanics rules handy for those events, although for constructed events, this is not always an option.
But why wouldn't it return? Thats how the card works. The opponent was correct here Edit: nevermind i miss read the forst part of your comment. I see what you mean now
During last years RCQ season in Pioneer i hade the same wrong misjudging happen to me two times. I played Boros Heroic with Clever Lumimancer. Two times my opponent pointed out that i hade not assigned my Clever Lumimancer "Double Prowes" ability when it triggered. The next RCQ i found out by another judge that you don't need to assign prowess abilities when they trigger, only when the opponent ask how big it is or how much damage. So in general: You only need to assign abilities when they matters.
At my LGS one time, the judge told me that my Rest In Peace didn’t exile itself when it was destroyed. It ended up not matter in that match, but I didn’t argue and pulled up the ruling after the match for him. He and many of the players were very surprised and learned something new.
I have a deck where I would make my sorceries very cheap with kaza, roil chaser. But the lgs insisted that when a stax piece makes spells cost more, it is applied after reduction. So I would still need to pay X+1. I played some games with that ruling and it was kind of fun to play like that.
Imagine you play a deck that relies on an extremely niche interaction and another game at the same event happens to have that interaction and the head judge making a mistake in the ruling which you would have been able to properly defend if you were there. But because that ruling applies to all the event you're now told that your deck isn't functional for this event.
Had an opponent call the judge in one of my pre-release events. I THINK it was Ixalan or Rivals of Ixalan, not positive. I don't remember the exact cards involved, but I was attacking with something with trample, I think any player damage would have triggered something. They double-blocked with something of theirs that would have been bad for me if it died. I proceeded to order their creatures with the one I didn't want to die second to take damage, then assigned ALL the damage from my trample creature to the first-in-line blocker. They thought I had to assign damage down the row, so to speak, and the judge agreed. Sorry for the very vague info, it was many years ago, and I only really remember the situation as a whole, not the finer details.
I've got "Judges can be wrong and it can have real consequences" story. Player A was on Nexus control, Player B was on U/x tempo. Player A, seeing that time was running out, not sure if Player B had Negate for their last win condition, decides to just start looping their Nexuses of Fate since there is no way to stop it. They are quite literally choosing to repeat a game action that does no affect the game state, can choose to stop it at anytime, and are deliberately doing so to run down the clock rather than risk losing. This is by definition stalling, which is very much against the rules. Judge: Nah, they aren't stalling. End of judgment.
Once lost a game due to bad headjudge call. He ruled clearly wrong that my Duress could be misdirected on myself even though only opponents are legal targets to that spell. I dropped due to this crap from a 100€ entry type one event in Germany. I was pissed as hell and I still get mad, when I remember that incident
I've been the victim of this. It was a low-stakes local tournament, but I was still massively cheated out of my rightful 1st place victory. I was playing an early variation of the life half of Cephalid LIfe combo. The era was somewhere around 6th Edition (fine, I'm old, sue me). Prior to the tournament, I wisely emailed WOTC rules department to confirm my combo worked. I printed out the email. The judge was so wildly incompetent, that he was using the original mulligan rule (only if you have no lands in hand and have to reveal your hand). He also seemed completely ignorant of how The Stack worked (The Stack was new back then). Dumb Judge rejected my email printout claiming I could have faked it, refused to let me show him the original email ("no using the store computer", smartphones weren't a thing yet), and I'm pretty sure he refused to refund my entry for some BS reason. I had to demand that I be allowed to rebuild my deck with what I had on hand. I managed to barely cobble together a coherent strat from some spare cards floating around in my junk box. I can't remember how well I finished.
It is sad that these sorts of memories stick with us for so long, but I just use them as a reminder to make sure that I never see that situation happen again for a new player. Always make sure the game is better for the players starting/joining after you :)
@@attackoncardboard I have a similar philosophy. And this experience is one of the driving forces behind my extensive rules knowledge. I can almost compete with L2 judges in most areas. It's led to some... amusingly complex combo brews. Dumb Judge's outdated knowledge did allow me to steal a bunch of wins by just having more life than my opponent when time was called. Evidently large boards, minimal interaction, and Congregate are strong that way.
For Rodolf Duskbringer, it states, "Flying, deathtouch, lifelink.Whenever you gain life, Rodolf Duskbringer gains indestructible until end of turn." If Rofolf is used to block a deathtouch 1/1. My understanding in that the damage step with no 1st strike or double strike then all damage is simultaneous. Meaning the deathtouch and lifeline happen at the same time making Rodolf indestructible during this step. I had the 3 players I played with telling me deathtouch before all status effects and thus activates before lifelink. Can you clarify this for me?
Damage happens all at the same time. The thing that is being missed here is that Rodolf's indestructible ability is a triggered ability. So damage would be dealt and life is gained, trigger goes on the stack, state based checks happen, sees Rodolf has been dealt 1 deathtouch damage, both creatures die. Rodolf's ability resolves but Rodolf is already in the graveyard.
I went to Dreamhack in Dallas for an RCQ. The format was modern. I was playing red green ponza pre Fury ban. My opponent was playing 4c elementals. I turned 2 Wrenn and Six. My opponent "in response" to me activating the plus ability, uses Fury's envoke ability to deal 3 damage to Wrenn and Six, and 1 damage to my Arbor Elf. I just threw my hand up and called for a judge. Judge hurrys over, I explain what my opponent just did. The judge opens his mouth and says, "Yep, that's how it works." And immediately fast walks away before getting a word in.
@@attackoncardboard You could kind of see the look on the Judge's face, He didn't want to be there, looked annoyed and rushed, walked away as fast as possible after giving the ruling. The most annoying thing is he didn't know Fury does NOT have flash.
In the full video, the Judge does go off and discuss the ruling with someone, but they still come back with the incorrect ruling. Maybe the pressure was on and it just got to them and made them overlook the rule? Having said that, I posted the situation into a Judge Q&A group and my first response back was "I see nothing wrong", until I quoted the Battle ruling 😅Maybe it's because Battles are barely played? 😂
There's usually multiple judges around the Feature Match Area, especially during top 8s, but it's entirely likely that multiple people can be wrong in the same way etc. either way, they don't usually all get filmed discussing like sports refs might.
This is a pretty obscure rule, since the situation doesn't come up very often. I actually almost punted this same interaction in a recent video and only caught it because I was looking up something else in the same part of the CR. So I could easily believe that one judge thought it worked that way and another agreed.
Googling "Corrugated paper" brings up "Corrugated cardboard" as the first result, as well as bringing up material similar to what I use for my background assets. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I appreciate the comments though 😅
@@attackoncardboard Corrugated paper is the wavy thing you see between the walls of a cardboard shipping box. Cardboard is just a generic term for "thick paper" and can range from paperboard (what cereal boxes and trading cards are made of) to corrugated fiberboard, the proper term for what we generally call a cardboard shipping box. m(_ _)m
Had everyone at mh3 pre-release tell me I couldn't pay the madness cost when discarding a card at my end step for having 8 cards in hand. I lost the game and then was told after that they double checked and you can...
Great video. Question for you and other judges out there. Consider a Competitive REL tournament and during Top 8, I found out that my opponent is using mismatching sleeves (ie. different back finish, different front finish, potentially miscut sleeves, and similar but not the same hue of coloured sleeves) AND "randomly" has cards in their deck with the open side of the sleeve facing towards them and facing away from them. I call the Judge over, and the Judge declares that my opponent has not purposefully / intentionally sleeved or stacked their deck in any particular pattern or order and there is insufficient evidence to suggest they are cheating. They allow the opponent to have an extra 10 minutes to unsleeve and resleeve their deck with a set of new sleeves. Do you agree with this ruling? If not, what would be the correct ruling in this case?
Relevant rulings here are IPG 3.8 Tournament Error - Marked Cards and MTR 3.12 Marked Cards. Judges need to find that the player would gain "substantial advantage" from the markings in order to issue a player a Game Loss. Otherwise, it's a warning and asking the player to resleeve.
Doesn't this leave room for actual corruption? Cash is cash, so if a player talks to a head judge ahead of game they can promise the judge a cut if they side with them.
The Magic Comprehensive Rules are not what determines the rules in a given game, match, or tournament. Judges are essentially the Dungeon/Game Masters in Magic, and they use the Comp. Rules as a guide, but are not bound to follow it to the letter.
Not entirely true. If a Judge was found purposely ignoring the Comp. Rules, they won't be judging events for much longer. Any Judge worth their salt would confer a more complex ruling with another Judge first.
ha that happen to me a few weeks ago in commander infact it literally lines up with this video you did. ruclips.net/video/LCL-n1ZmjNo/видео.html it was a "Horde of notions" activation to cast a "Foundation Breaker" during a opponents turn but the opponents and one judge didn't think i was wrong but i stood my ground since i knew by heart and research i was right... and it payed off they all realized a tiny bit more research later i was right since horde is instructional and not permissive. and the judge said my bad afterwards. (note another thing people keep getting wrong is "play" means cast with horde of notions whenever i do "Maelstrome wanderer" for the double cascade.)
Yup. If an effect says you play or cast something else, if it doesn't specify a duration ("until the next end step," "for as long as it remains exiled"), then it must be done immediately and ignores any timing restrictions (though technically I don't think it would ignore the "you can only play one land per turn"... But that's pretty convoluted to make come up. Conspiracy and dryad arbor and then horde of notions?)
Yuta knew that's how the interaction worked, in the full video you can see him explaining it to the judge. Again, mistakes happen and I think this is the first time I've seen this happen at a Pro Tour Top 8. Players were just lucky it didn't impact anything.
@@attackoncardboard I would say that they generally have the opinion that they are infallible or that they can't be wrong (or will, at least, not admit so). Generally speaking, an MLB Umpire will never overrule a call on the field because they think the call/ruling that was made was incorrect. Even when others argue with them, they will very rarely, if ever, overturn an already made on the field call... In the last decade, MLB has added challenges (essentially instant reply), and that is pretty much the only way an Umpire would ever change an on field call. Getting the on the field call "correct" is not seemingly the top goal.
MTG Judges are pretty good if they've got a team at the event with them. Because they're going to double check with the team. You can see in the video, the judge in the background conferring things with his colleagues and the rule book. MTG Judges want the game to be played correctly and will do everything they can to ensure so 🙂
Wow... So just lick the judges boots and be thankful they were wrong despite the rules saying otherwise. Screw that. Rules are rules and if you cant acurately mediate them dont be a judge. If you prove a judge wrong theyre fired and youre the new judge.
Yeah no. People make mistakes, but the power here is heavily stacked in the judge's favor. You're basically placing the burden of proof on the players when they question a judge's call when there's clearly no procedural mechanism to hold unscrupulous judges in check.
MTG Judges have a small tightknit community, if there's a Judge that is taking the piss, word will get around fast and they'll be swiftly dealt with. The integrity of the game is pretty important to most Judges.
Great information, and very important to know for all players because, as you said, judges are human and humans make mistakes. Also, thanks for the shoutout
Great to see you here! Absolutely love your content, your knowledge of the game is inspiring and has certainly helped me out a bunch! 😀
Rules collab video when? Seriously would love to see JudgingFTWs knowledge with AttackonCardboard’s polished video editing style.
@@olly123451 👀
It's kinda funny to me that the head judge has so much power that they can technically at the start of the event say that all Island tap for Red(of course no judge would ever do that, but the possibility is still there).
Oh, that happens once every 12 years, when the planets align a certain way. It's a dark day for Blue players everywhere 😂😭
@@attackoncardboard You could say it happens every blood moon? Okay, now I am out
Any rulings that absurd though would really jeopardize that judges career as a judge, while at that event sure whatever he said would stand it would be the most bizarre and outlandish event ever. Keep in mind in cases where a head judge makes a wrong ruling and it heavily impacts the tournament they can face repercussions.
Technically they have that power, but in actuality? The participants, organizers, any any other stakeholders involved would complain about such a stupid ruling.
Revolution is always an option.
@@LibertyMonk There also is no incentive to do this, it's extremely hard to rise to the higher level of judge in MTG. Many of these judges spend 1000's of hours honing their skills and working at tournaments to get to level 4 or level 5 judge which only a handful of in the world exist.
During the Streets of New Capenna prerelease I had a pretty sweet Jetmir tokens deck. My opponent cast Unexpected Detour and said that he got to choose to put my Jetmir to the bottom. I knew from similar rulings on similar cards that I got to pick to put it on top or bottom, but the judge incorrectly sided with my opponent. Still won the game (lost the match) but it was annoying. After the match before the next round I pulled up the ruling on a similar card on gatherer to show the judge. He apologized and explained how he was thinking of a ruling on a similar card that was worded just differently enough to make a difference. So all three of us learned more about the rules that day.
Prereleases are hard for everyone unfortunately, so many new card 😅 The worst thing in the world for a Judge is to get something wrong and potentially ruin someone's game. But at least there was firm handshakes all 'round at the end by the sounds 😀
One of my favorite miss rulings is the interaction between Evoke and having a sacrifice outlet. You can still sacrifice/exile the evoke creature as it ETB's and get it's evoke "ETB" resolved as it goes on the stack regardless if it's sacrificed/exiled through another card or it's own evoke trigger to sacrifice itself.
Wasn't in MTG, but actually, in a Yu-Gi-Oh tournament, I went to I had this happen to me. I made a play that went for game and TLDR I activated a card that needs a specific creature in play to cast. My opponent responded with enemy controller, and I explained that it didn't matter as it just needed to be there for activation and no resolution.
Guy disagrees, judge is called and makes the incorrect ruling, but thankfully, back then, there was an official website with almost the exact interaction that I could reference and direct the judge to. After he took a minute to study it, he came back making the correct ruling and even gave me a free pack for proving him wrong.
Imagine being one move away from winning that cash but then the judge says "nope" even though you re right.
i was almost in such a position. it's really dumb.
The odds of this (a judge giving an incorrect ruling) happening at a semi-major event are small, especially during top 8 when ALL of the judges are watching 4 or fewer games. But it's good to keep in mind what you can do if this does happen 🙂
I still remember I was at the MoM prerelease and was about to win the 3rd and final match, which would have me in 1st for the whole event. I was 1-1 and made a misplay accidentally giving my opponent another turn when I could have just ended the game with Chandra, but I was at 18 life so it was alright. But then my opponent played City On Fire and attacked me with a 7/7 with trample. I blocked with 3 toughness, and I said "Ok, I take 12", but my opponent and the judge (Formerly official years ago but worked at the store) said that "the creature would deal 7 damage to the 3 toughness creature, triple to 21, and then hit me for 18.
Despite my arguing about how that's not how City on Fire or trample works, I had to take the loss and came in second. I'm still a bit salty about that but yeah, that's my experience in this kind of situation.
Trample is actually a may ability. The creature doesn't HAVE to trample over to the player.
702.19b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any excess damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player, planeswalker, or battle the creature is attacking.
So while the opponent can choose to deal 7, tripled to 21, damage to the 3 toughness creature, you are right that the excess 18 damage doesn't trample over, because the initial 7 was all dealt to the creature and then tripled.
Replacement effects take effect on outcomes, not inputs. They can't get in the way of the internal workings of how Trample functions; they only replace the final result. Trample cannot 'look ahead' and see that the replacement will take place at some point in the process, then come back into itself and assign all those new numbers. It knows how much combat damage is available to it based on the creature's power, and how much toughness the creature blocking it has, and then allows you to assign the excess to the defending player/planeswalker/battle in the same manner as you would to a second blocking creature. Importantly, damage assignment occurs just before damage is actually dealt, and is not the same part of the process. The damage tripling replacement effect generated by City on fire affects specifically and only damage dealt, not damage assigned. The 7-power creature with trample does not have 21 combat damage to assign; it has 7. Once that damage is all assigned and the process moves forwards to actually dealing the damage, the replacement effect is applied and triples all of those numbers being dealt to the same entities and/or objects each allotment was already respectively assigned to.
The first ruling for City on Fire on Gatherer is this one:
(4/14/2023) -- While you control City on Fire, if a creature you control with trample would deal combat damage to a blocking creature, you must assign its unmodified damage. For example, a 3/3 creature with trample blocked by a 2/2 creature can have 1 damage assigned to the defending player. It will then deal 6 damage to the blocking creature (2 tripled) and 3 to the defending player (1 tripled).
Incidentally, I now badly want to hear an homage to "The Missile Knows Where It Is" but for Magic the Gathering rules.
i wish i was told this information back when i was learning how to play the commander format while also doing commander tournaments (with prizes on the line, as basically the only way i could play the game with other people). The judge at the time, would purposely tell me bad rulings and disadvantage me and i had no idea how i could go about dealing with the corrupt judge who was specifically targeting me at the time. Thankfully, some of the other players there gained some sympathy for me and were also annoyed at my mistreatment. One of my favorite interactions is when i'd have to stand behind someone who smelt of sewage. i informed the judge, then later, got into a seemingly casual conversation about smelling offensive and the judge would mention to let him know if someone smells bad, but in a way to imply my friend and i had never informed him properly of someone else's terrible odor. it really felt like there was nothing i could do except hope the LGS changed the judge, or just stop going to the LGS. Eventually, the judge person was changed. i felt like that judge would excuse others bad behavior and odor but happily punish me. i'll never forget two games in particular, had to call him over to explain how Archfiend of Ifnir works, while my opponents continued after to ignore the judges rulings and explanation of how Archfiend of Ifnir works. The other game oh you should had seen his face, i was playing a weird "mill" deck that while one of the ways it can win is by milling out the opponents decks, it can win through milling itself. And if it wasn't for the other players yelling at him to "let me cook" as the opponent in my game gave the judge as much opportunity as possible to "disqualify me" i then milled myself and presented a win condition. My opponents in disbelief after milling myself X amount of cards (which thankfully was one at a time) i was going through the cards in my now graveyard to see how i can win that game.
i know this turned into a wall of text, this was if nothing else therapeutic for me to type. if you read the whole thing, thank you for your time. This comment existing helps get this "off my chest."
That's what the comments are here for 😊
In my first tournament ever, back in the 90s, I was fighting for a top 8 spot (just a local tournament, not in the US).. I won game 1, game 2 I was about to win, opponent was with low life, and I had a karma, and he had several swamps - he'd lose the game on his upkeep. Then opponent floated all his mana and cast a Kaervek's spite. I said okay, that's a play to avoid death by karma. I was about to note me losing 5 life when he said "wait - in response, I cast another Kaervek's spite). I was at 8 life, so I'd lose the game.
Of course, I argued that he couldn't respond with the 2nd spite, because he'd have to discard to pay for the 1st one. Judge was called, and he initially was ruling in my favour. Then my opponent talked with the judge (I don't know what he argued). Judge ruled in my opponent's favour. I ended up losing game 3 and was out of the top 8.
That hurt. I knew I was right, but not a lot I could do.
Funny thing is, I ended up pairing against the judge, who was playing a pre-release (Weatheelight, I have the promo card to this day), and won the game, which was very satisfying. I wish I had said : well, that's karma", but I'll be honest, I only thought of that after the moment was gone lol
Oof. I hate being caught out on Priority/Phase technicalities. I had that happen to me once where I went to blow up my opponents land with a Lux Cannon at the end of the turn. But the guy I was playing, a known arsehole, managed to sweet talk the Judge that I somehow did it at the end of his 2nd Main Phase, which then allowed him to tap the mana and cast a sorcery speed spell. I went on to lose the match and it knocked me out of top 8 contention. Knowing what I know now, I would have called a Head Judge to restate my case without the pressure of the opponent staring into my soul 😂
@@attackoncardboard I feel you. I'll be honest I had no idea there was a head judge or that I could appeal them... well,.at least we have stories to tell, and can use them to teach! thanks for the video.
I was in a commander tournament at my local shop playing Sharuum the Hegemon infinite combo. I had phyrexian metaphorph on the board as a copy of Sharuum, and had disciple of the vault in play. Demonstrated the combo loop, asked if anyone had interaction and said good game, but all three of the older and more experienced opponents said the ETB effect would not be able to target itself. I was 19 and home from college, so not a regular at this point. I disagreed and the shop owner who acted as judge agreed with them after light googling.
I know it was generally low stakes, but it UPSET me since it shot down the point of my entire deck. I went home and spent 3 hours researching rules and writing out a response before realizing it wasn't worth having a tantrum about. Thinking about it still still mildly infuriates me though and it is a reason I have on my list for wanting to learn to be a proper judge. lol
The thing to remember about situations like this is that judges are human. No matter how skilled they are, they will make mistakes especially in something as complicated as magic. As frustrating as it is a calm, reasonable discussion about the situation is what will most likely resolve it correctly. An angry confrontation will make it harder for the judge to themselves stay reasonable and objectively review possible mistakes. That's true of all competitive events really, but it's really hard to remember that in the moment when something you're so emotionally invested in could go south due to a possible error.
The thing that is crazy about magic is that there are so many rules and interactions that whenever something weird comes up, almost any answer is believable. The trigger got countered and the card stays in play with no counters on it... hmmm... makes sense. The battle has zero counters so it goes in the graveyard... hmmm... makes sense.
And I hope with this channel I can clear up as many rules and interactions as possible 🙂
"This is exactly what happened to Yuta Takahashi-"
Me: Ha, Faerie Mastermind got printed, so I know how this-
"...in the Outlaws of Thunder Junction Pro Tour".
Me: 😮
Wait, there was another incident? Do tell!
@@attackoncardboard I think the idea was that it was assumed the video was going to deal with an incident occurring in the World Championship which Takahashi won and thereafter designed Faerie Mastermind, and if that assumption was correct then therefore we viewers would already know that whatever the mistake was, it didn't prevent him from ultimately winning that tournament.
However, that was an incorrect assumption, because the end of that sentence in the video identifies the event being discussed as a different tournament which happened well afterward.
(Maybe there was another incident during that tournament, though, and I didn't hear about or am failing to recall it.)
@@Arvensa Yeah, this! It was just a funny gut reaction as I was listening to the intro, was all.
I remember a similar situation happening to a friend while playing in Standard, when Hostage Taker was still legal. He cast Hostage Taker to exile an opponent's creature and then cast it from exile. However, his opponent destroyed the pirate and claimed that, by doing so, their creature returned under their control. They called a judge to resolve the situation, and the judge ruled in favor of the opponent. According to the rules, when my friend cast the creature, it was considered a new object, so the judge made a mistake. This cost him the game, and these types of situations tend to occur more frequently in prerelease events. That's why I usually keep the set mechanics rules handy for those events, although for constructed events, this is not always an option.
But why wouldn't it return? Thats how the card works. The opponent was correct here
Edit: nevermind i miss read the forst part of your comment. I see what you mean now
During last years RCQ season in Pioneer i hade the same wrong misjudging happen to me two times. I played Boros Heroic with Clever Lumimancer. Two times my opponent pointed out that i hade not assigned my Clever Lumimancer "Double Prowes" ability when it triggered. The next RCQ i found out by another judge that you don't need to assign prowess abilities when they trigger, only when the opponent ask how big it is or how much damage. So in general: You only need to assign abilities when they matters.
Excellent point! Coincidentally my latest video has a section about Missed Triggers
This one is a rule that judges frequently get wrong.
At my LGS one time, the judge told me that my Rest In Peace didn’t exile itself when it was destroyed. It ended up not matter in that match, but I didn’t argue and pulled up the ruling after the match for him. He and many of the players were very surprised and learned something new.
The easiest way of winning a pro tour is to conspire with all of the judges, you could basically play by your rules at that point
I have a deck where I would make my sorceries very cheap with kaza, roil chaser. But the lgs insisted that when a stax piece makes spells cost more, it is applied after reduction. So I would still need to pay X+1. I played some games with that ruling and it was kind of fun to play like that.
Trinisphere is the only Stax piece that applies after everything else. It has it's own step in the spell casting rules!
Imagine you play a deck that relies on an extremely niche interaction and another game at the same event happens to have that interaction and the head judge making a mistake in the ruling which you would have been able to properly defend if you were there. But because that ruling applies to all the event you're now told that your deck isn't functional for this event.
Had an opponent call the judge in one of my pre-release events. I THINK it was Ixalan or Rivals of Ixalan, not positive. I don't remember the exact cards involved, but I was attacking with something with trample, I think any player damage would have triggered something. They double-blocked with something of theirs that would have been bad for me if it died. I proceeded to order their creatures with the one I didn't want to die second to take damage, then assigned ALL the damage from my trample creature to the first-in-line blocker. They thought I had to assign damage down the row, so to speak, and the judge agreed.
Sorry for the very vague info, it was many years ago, and I only really remember the situation as a whole, not the finer details.
I know about this rule 😀
I've got "Judges can be wrong and it can have real consequences" story. Player A was on Nexus control, Player B was on U/x tempo. Player A, seeing that time was running out, not sure if Player B had Negate for their last win condition, decides to just start looping their Nexuses of Fate since there is no way to stop it. They are quite literally choosing to repeat a game action that does no affect the game state, can choose to stop it at anytime, and are deliberately doing so to run down the clock rather than risk losing. This is by definition stalling, which is very much against the rules.
Judge: Nah, they aren't stalling. End of judgment.
Once lost a game due to bad headjudge call. He ruled clearly wrong that my Duress could be misdirected on myself even though only opponents are legal targets to that spell. I dropped due to this crap from a 100€ entry type one event in Germany. I was pissed as hell and I still get mad, when I remember that incident
I've been the victim of this. It was a low-stakes local tournament, but I was still massively cheated out of my rightful 1st place victory.
I was playing an early variation of the life half of Cephalid LIfe combo. The era was somewhere around 6th Edition (fine, I'm old, sue me).
Prior to the tournament, I wisely emailed WOTC rules department to confirm my combo worked. I printed out the email.
The judge was so wildly incompetent, that he was using the original mulligan rule (only if you have no lands in hand and have to reveal your hand). He also seemed completely ignorant of how The Stack worked (The Stack was new back then).
Dumb Judge rejected my email printout claiming I could have faked it, refused to let me show him the original email ("no using the store computer", smartphones weren't a thing yet), and I'm pretty sure he refused to refund my entry for some BS reason.
I had to demand that I be allowed to rebuild my deck with what I had on hand. I managed to barely cobble together a coherent strat from some spare cards floating around in my junk box. I can't remember how well I finished.
It is sad that these sorts of memories stick with us for so long, but I just use them as a reminder to make sure that I never see that situation happen again for a new player.
Always make sure the game is better for the players starting/joining after you :)
@@attackoncardboard I have a similar philosophy.
And this experience is one of the driving forces behind my extensive rules knowledge. I can almost compete with L2 judges in most areas. It's led to some... amusingly complex combo brews.
Dumb Judge's outdated knowledge did allow me to steal a bunch of wins by just having more life than my opponent when time was called. Evidently large boards, minimal interaction, and Congregate are strong that way.
For Rodolf Duskbringer, it states, "Flying, deathtouch, lifelink.Whenever you gain life, Rodolf Duskbringer gains indestructible until end of turn."
If Rofolf is used to block a deathtouch 1/1. My understanding in that the damage step with no 1st strike or double strike then all damage is simultaneous. Meaning the deathtouch and lifeline happen at the same time making Rodolf indestructible during this step. I had the 3 players I played with telling me deathtouch before all status effects and thus activates before lifelink. Can you clarify this for me?
Damage happens all at the same time. The thing that is being missed here is that Rodolf's indestructible ability is a triggered ability. So damage would be dealt and life is gained, trigger goes on the stack, state based checks happen, sees Rodolf has been dealt 1 deathtouch damage, both creatures die. Rodolf's ability resolves but Rodolf is already in the graveyard.
@@attackoncardboard thank you
I went to Dreamhack in Dallas for an RCQ. The format was modern.
I was playing red green ponza pre Fury ban.
My opponent was playing 4c elementals.
I turned 2 Wrenn and Six.
My opponent "in response" to me activating the plus ability, uses Fury's envoke ability to deal 3 damage to Wrenn and Six, and 1 damage to my Arbor Elf.
I just threw my hand up and called for a judge. Judge hurrys over, I explain what my opponent just did.
The judge opens his mouth and says, "Yep, that's how it works." And immediately fast walks away before getting a word in.
Feels like some information must have been missed to the Judge there. How do they not know how Priority and Planeswalkers work?!
@@attackoncardboard You could kind of see the look on the Judge's face, He didn't want to be there, looked annoyed and rushed, walked away as fast as possible after giving the ruling. The most annoying thing is he didn't know Fury does NOT have flash.
Is there only one judge? It's kinda strange to me that in such high stakes games there is only one person who is responsible for such things.
In the full video, the Judge does go off and discuss the ruling with someone, but they still come back with the incorrect ruling. Maybe the pressure was on and it just got to them and made them overlook the rule?
Having said that, I posted the situation into a Judge Q&A group and my first response back was "I see nothing wrong", until I quoted the Battle ruling 😅Maybe it's because Battles are barely played? 😂
There's usually multiple judges around the Feature Match Area, especially during top 8s, but it's entirely likely that multiple people can be wrong in the same way etc. either way, they don't usually all get filmed discussing like sports refs might.
This is a pretty obscure rule, since the situation doesn't come up very often. I actually almost punted this same interaction in a recent video and only caught it because I was looking up something else in the same part of the CR. So I could easily believe that one judge thought it worked that way and another agreed.
Corrugated paper isn't cardboard. But I appreciate the background.
Googling "Corrugated paper" brings up "Corrugated cardboard" as the first result, as well as bringing up material similar to what I use for my background assets. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I appreciate the comments though 😅
@@attackoncardboard Corrugated paper is the wavy thing you see between the walls of a cardboard shipping box.
Cardboard is just a generic term for "thick paper" and can range from paperboard (what cereal boxes and trading cards are made of) to corrugated fiberboard, the proper term for what we generally call a cardboard shipping box.
m(_ _)m
TIL 😃
Had everyone at mh3 pre-release tell me I couldn't pay the madness cost when discarding a card at my end step for having 8 cards in hand. I lost the game and then was told after that they double checked and you can...
do... do you have Ape Escape music playing in the background?
I see you're also someone of good taste 😉
Great video. Question for you and other judges out there. Consider a Competitive REL tournament and during Top 8, I found out that my opponent is using mismatching sleeves (ie. different back finish, different front finish, potentially miscut sleeves, and similar but not the same hue of coloured sleeves) AND "randomly" has cards in their deck with the open side of the sleeve facing towards them and facing away from them.
I call the Judge over, and the Judge declares that my opponent has not purposefully / intentionally sleeved or stacked their deck in any particular pattern or order and there is insufficient evidence to suggest they are cheating. They allow the opponent to have an extra 10 minutes to unsleeve and resleeve their deck with a set of new sleeves.
Do you agree with this ruling? If not, what would be the correct ruling in this case?
Relevant rulings here are IPG 3.8 Tournament Error - Marked Cards and MTR 3.12 Marked Cards. Judges need to find that the player would gain "substantial advantage" from the markings in order to issue a player a Game Loss. Otherwise, it's a warning and asking the player to resleeve.
Awesome video
Thanks! 😊 I hope you enjoy the other content too 😁
Call a head judge, what you are able to do so.
these vids are awesome
Glad you like it! Hope you enjoy the rest of the content 😀
Appeal to the head judge
Doesn't this leave room for actual corruption? Cash is cash, so if a player talks to a head judge ahead of game they can promise the judge a cut if they side with them.
can you not appeal to the head judge?..
Did you watch the video? 😅 I even talk about what happens if the Head Judge is wrong!
The Magic Comprehensive Rules are not what determines the rules in a given game, match, or tournament. Judges are essentially the Dungeon/Game Masters in Magic, and they use the Comp. Rules as a guide, but are not bound to follow it to the letter.
Not entirely true. If a Judge was found purposely ignoring the Comp. Rules, they won't be judging events for much longer. Any Judge worth their salt would confer a more complex ruling with another Judge first.
Well, obviously, the MTR exists, and other similar policies too. And at Regular and unsanctioned REL, things are more flexible.
Being honest I've been super interested in becoming a judge but uh... Seems like a dieing breed unfortunately
As long as people are playing the game, people will want to teach it.
Or just Google the rules and explain them do them.
ha that happen to me a few weeks ago in commander
infact it literally lines up with this video you did.
ruclips.net/video/LCL-n1ZmjNo/видео.html
it was a "Horde of notions" activation to cast a "Foundation Breaker" during a opponents turn but the opponents and one judge didn't think i was wrong but i stood my ground since i knew by heart and research i was right... and it payed off they all realized a tiny bit more research later i was right since horde is instructional and not permissive. and the judge said my bad afterwards.
(note another thing people keep getting wrong is "play" means cast with horde of notions whenever i do "Maelstrome wanderer" for the double cascade.)
Yup. If an effect says you play or cast something else, if it doesn't specify a duration ("until the next end step," "for as long as it remains exiled"), then it must be done immediately and ignores any timing restrictions (though technically I don't think it would ignore the "you can only play one land per turn"... But that's pretty convoluted to make come up. Conspiracy and dryad arbor and then horde of notions?)
That was such an easy call. How do you make it pro and not know how to resolve such a simple interaction?
Yuta knew that's how the interaction worked, in the full video you can see him explaining it to the judge.
Again, mistakes happen and I think this is the first time I've seen this happen at a Pro Tour Top 8. Players were just lucky it didn't impact anything.
If your judge is wrong in a tournament they need to be removed as judge
So, no Judge is allowed to ever make a mistake?
Hope they don't act/think like MLB umpires.
I don't follow Baseball here in Australia. How do they act?
@@attackoncardboard I would say that they generally have the opinion that they are infallible or that they can't be wrong (or will, at least, not admit so). Generally speaking, an MLB Umpire will never overrule a call on the field because they think the call/ruling that was made was incorrect. Even when others argue with them, they will very rarely, if ever, overturn an already made on the field call... In the last decade, MLB has added challenges (essentially instant reply), and that is pretty much the only way an Umpire would ever change an on field call. Getting the on the field call "correct" is not seemingly the top goal.
MTG Judges are pretty good if they've got a team at the event with them. Because they're going to double check with the team. You can see in the video, the judge in the background conferring things with his colleagues and the rule book.
MTG Judges want the game to be played correctly and will do everything they can to ensure so 🙂
Making mistakes is super cringe ngl. Just be a better Magic player. /s
Just don't make mistakes. 5head
Wow... So just lick the judges boots and be thankful they were wrong despite the rules saying otherwise. Screw that. Rules are rules and if you cant acurately mediate them dont be a judge. If you prove a judge wrong theyre fired and youre the new judge.
What would you realistically have happen if a judge got a rule incorrect?
Yeah no. People make mistakes, but the power here is heavily stacked in the judge's favor. You're basically placing the burden of proof on the players when they question a judge's call when there's clearly no procedural mechanism to hold unscrupulous judges in check.
MTG Judges have a small tightknit community, if there's a Judge that is taking the piss, word will get around fast and they'll be swiftly dealt with. The integrity of the game is pretty important to most Judges.
it would appear to be a communist system but it's a republic system thankfully.
@@MageSkeletonThis has nothing to do with economics???????? I think you meant to say it’s not a dictatorship