MTGs HARDEST rule is actually EASY - Let me explain: Layers for Beginners
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
- It's finally here, the Layers video. Layers is notorious for being MTGs hardest rule to wrap your head around. In this video, I break down and explain Layers, Timestamps, Dependencies and cover everything you'll need to know about Layers, so you can apply them in you next game of Commander!
0:00 Intro
0:24 What are Layers?
1:00 Layers practice example
1:42 The 7 Layers
3:17 How to apply Layers
3:59 Answering the example
5:32 Timestamps
6:10 When do Timestamps get applied?
6:33 Timestamp example
7:31 Dependencies
8:10 Dependencies example
8:46 Layers Summary
Thanks for watching!
#MagicTheGathering #mtg
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This is the most in-depth beginners guide ever
It was one of those rulings where I couldn't not talk about just Layers, I had to include Timestamps and Dependencies, just to make sure everyone had all the info they needed, but I'm pretty confident I presented the info in a way that was easily digestible :)
I was so proud of myself having mastered the stack and priority, now I watch this and it's really humiliating to admit to be a beginner, but you're right 😢
Have you ever tried to learn unity?
@@TheThiccestChungus Not yet. I'm currently learning After Effects as right now I just do everything in Premiere 😅😅
@@NerdJakee 1qq no Zé azzx😢😅😅
This is why, when I was a judge, I had a card in my pocket at all times that listed out the layer order :D I think over the few years I judged at events, I only ever had to refer to the layers rules a couple of times, but it was (IMO) the most complicated portion of the rules to keep memorized!
I also still remember Humilty + Opalescence (and increasingly complicated additions to that combo, like adding a second Humility, etc) being a popular topic and challenge among judges when it was a particularly slow evening :P Luckily that was an interaction that never came up in any tournament, Legacy/Vintage players tend to not be the sorts to bring meme "stump a judge" decks to official tournaments. (Commander players on the other hand not so much, but at the time, a lot of the players I knew who had Commander/EDH decks _were_ judges)
I had another favourite interaction involving Blood Moon: together with Conversion and creating dependencies AFTER the timestamp order was determined by simply playing a land
Having a card in your pocket is a great idea. I would actually like to see the steps of the turn and tips cards pop-up in draft packs more often than the “magic minigame“ cards. A card on the stack, or even a card on the layers would be a great thing to include.
I scoop these up all the time. Have a whole commander sized deck box of them I keep with me in my bag for new players. If someone brings their significant other or a friend and they're just watching, I'll pass them one too. I also have a teaching kit I keep with me for between rounds. Best way to get new players into the game: have the resources to show them without making it complicated.
Really helpful even for an experienced player like myself. Been playing for almost 20 years and still haven't gotten explanations as clear as this video was. This can be a really complicated game and its nice to see explanations like this to help clear confusion.
That's the goal of this channel. Taking "complicated" rules, and breaking them down so they're easier to digest :)
Here's a fun example of layers colossus hammer makes creature lose flying but gets +10/10 so if you want a flying hammer you've got to equip an equipment that gives flying after you equipment hammer
Heck yeah! Timestamps!
So the timestamps there depend on when the equipment entered the battlefield or on which was equiped first/last??
When the equipment ETBs it gets a time stamp and when it equips, it gets a new one.
I've been playing magic with my friend for 11 years and have never heard of Layers until now. This is why people say the game's too complicated to start playing. That doesn't make sense when you say it. Both are static effects. So when looking at it and reading it. it seems that it would lose the ability lol wow how very insightful ❤
What happens if two cards with continuous effects on the same layer that aren’t dependent on the other come into play at the same time. For example, say you cast a Brilliant Restoration that returns both Levitation and Mystic Decree from your graveyard to the battlefield at the same time. Would creatures you control have or not have flying?
I'm glad you brought this up, as I didnt have time to add this to the video as it was already long enough 😅 APNAP actually takes over.
613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
Oh wow so in this case the person reanimating both of these enchantments would just get to choose which “comes in first”/has an earlier timestamp and thus would get to choose whether all of their creatures will have or not have flying?
Yup, if they both come into play under the same persons control, they would get to choose the order 🙂
Instead like leyline of the void and blightsteel colossus you chose if blightsteel return to the deck or no that instead is a remplacement effect and dont touch the graveyard.
@@koalafridge4170 this makes sense, since you also get to order triggers that occur simultaneously under your control.
I really dislike that the dependency rule does not apply to earlier layers. Would that not make things simpler as the first example (making lands into mountaind) is clearly made way more complicated by the current layer rules? Maybe I am missing cases in which things are held together by this system.
If dependencies applied to earlier layers, humility and opalescence would create an undeterminable board state.
@@sanscipher9166 Could you elaborate? Maybe I just don't understand, but the way I interpret it, if dependencies would apply to earlier layers, nothing would change regarding the humility and opalescence interaction. Since they're on the same layer (power/toughness) and aren't dependent on one another, timestamps make the board state determinable here. Are you trying to say that the effect of humility is dependent on the fact that it's an enchantment? Because opalescence specifically states that it's still an enchantment, so there's no conflict or dependency here that I can tell.
Then Humility's ability would depend on the Opalescences (because they change the set of creatures that can be humiliated), but the Opalescences abilities also depend on Humility (because it might remove the abilities).
This is called a "dependency loop" and it can happen under the layer system too, but very rarely. Basically it's resolved by ignoring those dependencies and going back to timestamp order.
It would certainly be possible to design a better layer system that had fewer unintuitive results, but it's not trivial, and it's not important enough to Wizards for them to dedicate any effort towards.
@@sanscipher9166 That's not correct, the whole point of applying effects in a specific order is that there's always a well-defined end result. The only way in which the order matters is that it changes what that result is and whether it's one that humans will find intuitive.
Legitimately super informative, I'm glad someone finally laid it out in a way that's understandable
When you formulate the question and while formulating it you see where your thinking eas wrong :D
Really good video, I had no idea about these rules! Didnt even know they exist! Thanks a lot!!!
😊
That was incredibly helpful. I had no knowledge of these rules. I did not see some of the cards you showed in a game before. Now I know what to do when I see it.
Glad I could help. Layers don't come up all too often, and I wouldn't expect anyone to remember the Layers list if they're playing casually, but it's a good thing to be aware of and keep in mind :)
Beautiful. Thanks 🎉
The one thing I'd wish you'd touched on is *why* the layers are that order. Magus of the Moon + Humility make it confusing why you apply types before abilities, but it's easy to understand with Rise from the Grave + Death Baron. Layers are meant to provide intuitive answers for common scenarios, and definitive answers for tricky scenarios.
That sounds like something for another video for sure. I only have a few examples where the game breaks if the order of Layers are changed. It's been brought up a couple of times, will definitely keep this in mind :)
@@attackoncardboardreally in the end changing the order will "fix" some interactions, but create a problem backwards somewhere else. So in the end SOME cards have to lose.
I'm still left questioning if a new nonbasic gets put into play after humility is out.
Magus has no ability, will the new land put into play remain what it is or will it become a mountain
@@Fuzzi999 I think it's still a mountain by my interpretation of the video - every time the board state is checked, you would apply the layers in order again, and so magus's would still be locked in despite another land entering.
I think a better way to explain why the layers are in the order they are is to just think about why they'd be messed up if they weren't in that order. Like, how could you remove an ability from a creature if you didn't even know whether it was a creature or not (abilities layer being after the type layer makes sense here). Or, can I change the color of a permanent I control if I don't know whether I control it or not (control has to be a super early layer, of course)?
The ape escape music ties it all together
I am happy you came up on my fyp! You videos are well thought out, educational, and beginner friendly. You pacing with starting the videos of in clear view of what’s to come is pleasant, and therapeutic. Something that most videos like these lack. Please keep up the work! I look forward to you and the community you grow!❤❤❤
That's wonderful to hear 😁 I have such a passion for this game and I love helping people get more into it! 😀
If you've ever got any questions, I'm always reading the comments and I'm happy to help 🙂
Really clear explanation. thanks!
The good this will do for the overall knowledge of the game is immense based solely on how easily it was broken down. I don't even think the TCC has a video like this.
Tyvm and crowd-surf the Karn
Well done. Thanks.
Thank you so much for making this video:)
😊
Your channel is amazing! Thank you for these videos. This should be required viewing for all mtg players
If there's anything else you would like to know, just ask :)
THANK YOU!
This is a great guide, but it's gonna be really hard to remember during a guide (particularly remembering the actual layers). It's obviously one thing for a judge to come in afterwards, check the rules, and say how something should work, it's another thing to think on the spot of how the interactions will work before you make your move. You'd have to study for this haha.
It's not something that comes up too often, but it's good to know that this exists and is something to keep in the back of your mind :)
Great video, and a great explanation! You should do one for replacement effects too; those can be tricky to understand.
Who let you read my scripts folder?! 😂 It wont be the next one as that video is already 90% complete but maybe the one after that :)
1:40- this is the perfect use of the Will emoji!
Fantastic guide. Can you elaborate more on dependencies. How blood moon interacts with Urborg.
I really enjoy the subtle music in the background especially the song from Zelda. Also great video! But I'm still confused as a new-ish player and will probably always be, magic is hard!
Feel free to let me know what you're confused on and I'm happy to try and explain again in the comments 🙂
I can’t wait for the “explaining where all these cards came from” video! That must have some complicated layers as wel…
Great explanation.
Glad it was helpful! 😀
On one hand: excellent information. Truly useful. On the other hand: the title suggests that knowing this makes layers easy, and doesn't address the one thing that makes layers hard: there's so d*** many of them!
I mean, not really. Just seven, plus some sublayers
@@sanscipher9166 I’m glad seven’s not a lot to you. Without some pretty significant effort, I won’t be able to remember even what’s on the list, much less what order they occur in.
@@Dnallohes How much effort did it take you to memorize what order days of the week go in?
When you edit a 10 minute layers video for 3 days straight, they stick after that 😂
This music from ape escape 1 almost made me cry of joy/sadness becaiuse of my age
As a Yugioh player, on the one hand, I find it stupid that removing an continuous effect doesn’t remove its application once applied, but on the other hand have to remind myself that if that non-basic land would have an effect to make every enchantment a 1/1 creature that looses all abilities you would look at an infinite state change without player interaction that’s unresolvable without the layers rule. (We have some issues with these , doesn’t really come up often but once some people found a bad card named pole position that could trigger those infinite game states pretty reliably which in end result prevented the opponent from ever playing a card since it was illegal to make a move in Yugioh that would result in an unresolvable game state, until they mended the ruling)
I feel like you're doing most things right and it's just time until a weird rule pops up in tournament/for a popular streamer and you end up exploding in popularity. Which I hope you do, cus I love this channel
Thanks 😊 I had that happen with March of the Machines 😅 I went from 300 to 1k subs very quickly. I noticed that nobody was talking about an interesting rules changes (tokens can now transform) and decided to talk about it and it's implications. Just need another one of those to happen 😂
Love the Ape Escape track.
Great video ! What happens in the magus/command tower/humility example if the magus is removed from the battlefield ? Does the lands in play staying Mountains as far as they stay on the bf ?
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. Any time anything happens the "layer program" runs.
When Magus leaves the battlefield, so does their effect 🙂
Really great, you need more subs!
Thank you 😊
niice guide bro!
I feel like I have learnt all this stuff like 5 separate times over the years but then it comes up so rarely that I forget it all by the time it is relevant again
Practise makes perfect. The only reason I remember it all is because I made this video 😂
Gained a sub from me. Been playing for over a decade and this is the best breakdown I've seen.
😊
I been playing mtg for 5 years now and I didn't even know "layers" existed as an official thing like this, dang.
by the dependency rule you describe wouldn't that make magus of the moon turn off and return nonbasics to their original form? Since the static effect will no longer be in play because of humility? Or have I missed something significant? Sort of like how if we had an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite a humility won't kill my creatures because they are turned to 1/1 at the same time as EN's -2/-2 debuff ability is turned off.
Timestamps and Dependencies only come into play when we're looking at Effects trying to be applied in the *same* layer.
Magus works on Layer 4 (Type) and Humility works on Layer 6 (Abilities) and 7 (Power and Toughness) :)
@attackoncardboard I don't think that answers his question. I think he's confused over the logical inconsistency of the ability not being there anymore, yet still applying. Logically, the continuous effect of Magus of the Moon should be checked for continuously. Like if we destroy the Magus, the effect goes away no?
WOW I never knew this was a rhing at all. Thank you so much!
Glad I could help 🙂
Got it, thanks.
Does the example at 5:24 with Magus, Non-Basic, and Humility apply to subsequent non-basic lands played. Do they enter as mountains?
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. With Magus of the Moon and Humility in play. Non-basic lands will still enter as Mountains.
There absolutely needs to be a Shrek crossover!
🙏
A+ for Ape Escape music
Just for my own clarification, in the Magus of the Moon example with Humility, if another non-basic land is played while both Magus and Humility are on board, does the the land still enter as a "mountain" or as whatever it is now that Humility is blanking Magus?
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. With Magus of the Moon and Humility in play. Non-basic lands will still enter as Mountains :)
@@attackoncardboard somehow I missed the constantly checked. Duh lol
This was actually VERY informative holy shit.
Hope you enjoyed it :) If there are any other rules you need a hand with let me know 😀
Thank you for the video. Super informative, concise and helpful. The layer rule is clear. Im curious as to why the layers are ordered numerically and the philosophy behind each layer's 'number'.
Maybe Copy first as to define conditional 'if' interaction spells and the legendary rule. Control perhaps logically follows to line up with Upkeep phase/damage logics/"its controller" effects. The first two layers seem to set the stage for how those cards can interact with players and the game state in layers 3-7.
Guess aside, are there resources available that give insight to this rule philosophy in MTG or in general game design?
An interesting interaction to think about if Layers 1 and 2 were swapped:
I cast Copy Enchantment on your Mind Control.
If the Layers were swapped, I wouldn't gain control of one of your creatures.
@@attackoncardboardDamn, interesting! Thank you for the quick response and your time. Your video has invigorated a desire to learn and explore more about this
While the Layers aren't intuitive at first glance, they've ensured that all cards across 30 years just simply work without massive changes to the rules each time a new set comes out.
I don't have the exact answer as to why it is the way it is, I just know it breaks the game if it's not 😅
Very good video, very enlightening video. i would had thought Dress Down would shut down Magus of the Moon so lands can tap for their non basic abilities. But apparently not.
Would you be up to explain Slicer, hired muscle? and/or Assault Suit? More specifically the types of things you can equip onto the creature and who benefits from any triggers?
I'd be happy to answer your question, but I'm not sure what it is. Any equipment can be attached to Slicer, Hired Muscle unless it says otherwise. Changing control of Slicer doesn't change what's attached to it, nor does it change the controller of those Equipment.
You are a legend
This was great, thank you! I might still need some clarification on dependencies. Are we talking "anything from effect B that would change the effect of effect A?". That seems like it might be too broad? Also just double checking: dependency only applies within the same layer, right?
So dependencies only come into play for effects on the same layer.
The comp. rules tell us the exact meaning of a dependency:
613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
Effectively yes, if Effect A would change the outcome of Effect B, B is dependent on A, therefore apply A first.
Just a clarification on the Bloodmoon Urbog scenario, it was mentioned that Urbog's effect is dependent whether bloodmoon's effect is applied first, does that mean if bloodmoon was already in play and a turn later a player would play Urbog, lands will be swamps? TIA
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. When Urborg ETB, Layers will be check, the layers will see a dependency between Urborg and Blood Moon. So Blood Moon will be applied first and remove Urborgs ability :)
Thank you for the video, I didn't know about the layers system!
I have a question regarding the Humility/Opalescence interaction at 6:33 though: By the time Humility's effect is being applied in Layer 6 it has already become a creature. As its effect states "All creatures..." wouldn't it be dependent on itself? It seems to me like a paradoxical situation in which it would lose its ability only if it keeps its ability... if that makes sense.
While in the video, I explained that Layers are applied step by step, they're technically applied all at once, at the same time. So Humility will end up being a 1/1 creature with no abilities (with Opalescence in play) but this is only after the layers are applied.
Official ruling for ppl who are curious:
- "If Magus of the Moon loses its abilities, it continues to turn nonbasic lands into Mountains. This is because effects that change subtypes are applied before considering effects that remove abilities, regardless of the order in which those effects started."
I'm still confused as to why blood magus's ability would apply under humility when humility says that it doesn't have an ability to apply
Because Layer 4 type changes are applied before layer 6 ability changes.
Outside of Humility, this is usually what you want to have happen. Consider Cyberdrive Awakener, which when it comes in makes all your noncreature artifacts into creatures for a turn (layer 4) and then gives them flying (layer 6).
@@siosilvar but why wouldn't a game state check happen afterwards and see there is no longer anything causing the layer change.
Edit: I see now every time there's a game state check it'll run down the same layers see that it's supposed to change the lands then see it's supposed to lose its abilities. I guess that's the point of this video is it's counter intuitive, but I wonder what damage would be caused by switching the layering so you could turn off the magus
@@undeaddueler13 It would break a lot of other cards. The fact that layer 4 is before layer 6 is what lets Archetype of Imagination grant flying to manlands or vehicles, for example
very informative video! could you give me a little bit tougher example of a dependency? I think I understand it but just want to make sure.
My Archetype of Imagination is enchatned by Darksteel Mutation. Does my Grizzly Bear have flying? Why or why not?
Im curious about the first example does that mean that every subsequent land that came into play after the humility are its regular land time since Magus of the Moon lost its ability? Or are the layers essentially constantly reapplying every time something is done?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the lands would be mountains. Time stamps only apply when determining which layer applies first. Playing a Strip Mine for example, it doesn’t have anything that is on the same layer as Magus’s effect.
If you had a creature that had the ability “all non basic lands are swamps” and you played that with Magus on the field, then all non basic lands would be swamps because the magus would be applied first then the “swamp creature” would be applied next, making all non basic lands swamps. (I made up a creature for this example)
The layers are constantly applying; continuous effects do what the name implies and apply continuously. Any new lands will be Mountains.
I’m a literal idiot and understand things way better when told and laid out like this. I will retain this so much more than other bs but just in case I’ve saved the video so I can always find it again. I appreciate the helped watched tons of videos about layers as I wanna judge but I can’t wrap my head around it this helped a ton even though I’m sure it will get mixed up later.
I do wanna ask if you could add any additional information about dependencies cause I don’t understand how exactly the urborg or sliver was dependent on the blood moon or humility respectively.
Man, when you lay it out like that, layers actually sound quite simple.
😁 glad to hear it made sense. I'll be looking to do a follow up video in the near future. So if you're still unsure about anything, let me know 🙂
For other rules, I understand linked abilities and how they only reference the other ability they're tied to, but it should make logical sense that you could use the second part of a linked ability if you were able to otherwise fulfill its condition.
Here's an example:
Kheru Mind-Eater equipped with Kaldra Compleat that exiles another creature with combat damage should allow you to play the exiled card.
It doesn't because of the rule on linked abilities, eventhough it makes sense to allow it if you read both cards.
Ooo nice. I think I was kind of aware of this rule, just purely down to how many games I've played, but I would have never of known it was called "Linked Abilities". This looks like some good night time reading!
607.5 for anybody else reading this:
"
If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past.
Example:
_Arc-Slogger has the ability “{R}, Exile the top ten cards of your library: Arc-Slogger deals 2 damage to any target.” Sisters of Stone Death has the ability “{B}{G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Sisters of Stone Death” and the ability “{2}{B}: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control.” Quicksilver Elemental has the ability “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If a player has Quicksilver Elemental gain Arc-Slogger’s ability, activates it, then has Quicksilver Elemental gain Sisters of Stone Death’s abilities, activates the exile ability, and then activates the return-to-the-battlefield ability, only the creature card Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Sisters of Stone Death’s ability can be returned to the battlefield. Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned._
"
yeah, I agree that's silly, seems like it's actively working against good deck building
In the example you gave with magus of the moon and humility, wouldnt it only keep the lands as mountains until the next time the board state was checked? if my opponent plays MotM, and i play Humility, all my non basic lands would be mountains by the end of the stack, but when i play a new non basic land, MotM would have no abilities, so the new land would not be a mountain, and because his effect was checked it would reset all my non-basics?
Follow up question (assuming that im correct in my previous assumption) wouldnt me playing anything/changing phases check the board and change all my non-basic lands back to what they were, so the effect of having only mountains would only really effect my next card play in that phase?
The layers don't loop around. They start with each card's printed text and go down, layer by layer.
Question: why does the ability adding/removing effect not stop humility or opalescence from giving power/toughness since it applies in layer 6 and the power/toughness applies in layer 7?
You finish applying the rest of an effect if you start applying any part of it. Rule 613.6
Can you explain the interaction of leonin shikari, syr gwyn, and argentum armor being passed between attacking knights?
You're only going to get one Argentum Armor trigger and one Syr Gwyn trigger. All attackers are declared at the same time, and that's when "whenever a creature attacks" triggers trigger. Moving the Argentum Armor after the creatures have already attacked won't make them attack again.
@isaacking1524 I think my misunderstanding came from the difference between "attacking" and "attacks" your explanation makes sense.
I've been playing for years and never knew about these rules.
Gotta say, great presentation very clear and concise... but I think I'll just do my best to avoid these cards going forward. Gives me real pole position vibes from Yu-Gi-Oh.
Complicated layers states don't come up too often, but if you're playing cards like Darksteel Mutation or Humble (effects that remove abilities) effects, it's always good to know how they interact with other permanents, especially Commander :)
when this video appeared i had just talked a few days earlier to a friend starting magic how layers were the most complicated rule in MTG XD. Also if humility's on the board before magus of the moon, does magus of the moon still "have time" to apply his effect ? The only thing i can think of is if layers "resolve" when states are being checked and state based actions take place
Layers don't resolve, they apply constantly. And yes, Magus still applies his effect
Oooooh that Ape Escape music just hitting.
Absolutely love Ape Escape. You can hear my childhood in all these videos. Music and SFX are all from my favourite games 😁
so while remembering each layer is kind of hard, it can be summed as layers work the exact opposite as the stack. the stack is first in, last out and layers is first in, first out.
If you spend 3 days straight editing a video all about Layers, you'll remember the order 🤣
Great video! I still don't understand how Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is dependent on Blood Moon, but Magus of the Moon isn't dependent on Humility, though.
Magus and Humility operate on different layers. Dependency can only exist between effects on the same layer
@@sanscipher9166 Oh, okay, that makes sense. Thanks!
Due to timestamps will the new lands played after Magus of the Moon has been changed by Humility now keep their original form and only the lands that were in effect before stay as mountains.
Nope, new lands will still be mountains.
This is great to know. Does this mean that Veyran, voice of duality would still be usable, if she lost her abilities to an aura? The not magecraft part.
Veyran's first ability Is a triggered ability and the second one is a replacement effect. If Humility (or an ability removing effect) was played, they would no longer have either of those abilities.
Now that we understand the Layers, Timestamps, and Dependencies rulings, we can speculate that there might be a time when the rules committee decides to simplify the rules and do away with the counterintuitive Layers rules, leaving us only with Timestamps and Dependencies. Furthermore, Dependencies may not be necessary any more either, since they create an unnecessary complication in the rules system, leaving us only with Timestamps, APNAP, and the choice of the controller to apply effects to break ties. This would be the simplest version of the rules. But for now, I recommend learning the rules as they are and then relearning them when they change. I say "when" and not "if" because damage used to use the stack, interrupts used to exist, and the Legend rule has changed many times. Thanks again for making this clarification video, which I will now watch again.
Layers are unlikely to go. There used to be a time when only timestamps existed, and let me tell you, it was capital c confusing
@magusofthebargain I would encourage you to spend a while thinking about the consequences of those changes. Look up some cards with continuous effects and ask yourself what the result would be with no layers and no dependencies. You may be surprised. ;)
This makes me think of the card "Infinite Reflection" and its kind of busy text-box.
If the card was reduced to something like "Each other nontoken creature you control is a copy of enchanted creature", then it sounds like it wouldn't actually affect creatures that are under your control only due to control effects (noting that Copy comes before the Control layer). Do I have that right?
I'm guessing that's why the card is structured to have control be checked only at very specific moments (on trigger). Though, I wonder why those two layers are ordered in that way. What would be the implications if they were flipped?
That's correct!
If layers 1 and 2 were swapped, what would happen if you played Copy Enchantment and copied Control Magic? :)
8:08 You say that if a dependency exists, you always apply the DEPENDENT effect first. Then in the following example you apply the effect on which the dependent effect depends (Blood Moon's effect) first.
I'm going to have to come back to this. could you have talked about Warpworld, do you know the card? it says all players shuffle all their paraments into their decks and draw that meaning cards then put all creature land and enhancements in an order then discard all instants and sorcery
If the question is what timestamps the permanents from Warp World will have, it's APNAP order. (With Enchantments after the others of course.)
@@isaacking1524 I get that but if it's a 4 player game how dose non active player cards work going in at the same time.
I've got a video explaining this ;) It's the one with Palpatine in the thumbnail 🙂
Fun Fact I used to play Darksteel Garrison in my Horobi EDH deck. That was the only time I've ever seen it being played.
I feel like that's a Black Lotus moment. I've actually seen a Black Lotus in person, but never a Darksteel Garrison 😂
I’ve got it in my Baru, Fist of Krosa EDH deck, because I like weird cards that almost never work, and it has a lot of land animation.
If there was a Magus of the Moon and Humility out and then someone played a non-basic land would that land still be a Mountain? Or would it enter as a non-basic land since the Magus no longer has that ability?
(IE, does Magus still have its ability active but hidden under Humility or is it gone but the damage was already done so it only applied to old lands?)
Layers are constantly checked, updated applied. When anything happens the "Layers Program" is run. So any new Non-basic lands will be Mountains
@@attackoncardboard Awesome, thanks for the answer! 😁
The magus of the moom + humility example still confuses me. Just sent this example of the cards to my friends and asked them if their nonbasic lands are Mountains. None of them said yes...
It's certainly not intuitive, but that's how the layers work in MTG 😅
Yeah I got it wrong too at first cause I thought dependencies worked across different layers 😅
Timestamps only matter when looking at Effects on the same layer, Dependencies are related to Timestamps. That's how I learn it :)
how many of them are judges tho?
@@sanscipher9166 none of them. Just a group of casual commander players
I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that continuous effects aren't always actually continuous.
In Magic, continuous effects are any effects that "modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period."
This, unintuitively, includes things like Oko's +1 ability, despite the fact that there is nothing continuous about it in the English sense of the word.
Layers always sounded incredibly daunting to me. But this actually made it very easy to graps. I'm sure there's still some iffy interactions here and there, but going through those steps makes me think I should be able to tell how it works in most cases!
That being said, could you, or anyone for that matter, by chance name 1-2 more examples of dependency cases? Those still feel a bit abstract and I'm struggling to think of other cases where that could apply, and worry I might miss those if they come up.
Archetype of Courage is enchanted with Darksteel Mutation, for example!
In the blood moon example, what happens when the magus dies? As per application of the rules. Intuitively, they would stop being mountains, but given at that point the magus doesn't have the ability, what part of the rules would change the board state so ghat the lands would stop being mountains. Or am I wrong and those lands will remain mountains?
The game recalculates continuous effects "continually and automatically". Once Magus is no longer there to provide the layer 4 type-changing effect, it goes away, and all lands go back to normal.
I guess this is the video i needed to answer a question about the interaction between Geist of Saint Traft, Annoited Procession and Divine visitation. So i attack with geist, place angel 4/4 attacking, Annoited procession triggers and I play another angel... Divine visitation simply adds vigilance to those Angels which i will have to exile at the end of combat. Is my understanding correct?
So you attack with Geist and get a trigger that *would* put a tapped and attacking Angels. Instead you get 2 tapped and attacking Angels that now have vigilance (they'll still be tapped). You'll then exile them both at end of combat.
I don’t feel like dependencies were explained well enough in this video. I understand the subtlety and can infer, but everything else was so defined I feel dependency was left behind. None the less you’ve blown my mind after 10 years of casual magic, thanks for this video!
Ohhh..it’s fairly clear. Blood moon works whether or not urborg is there, and Urborg depends on blood moons timestamp, therefor blood moon takes priority. It’s clear. Again, thanks for the video
That's it, you got it :)
@@attackoncardboard Truly thanks for this video. I remember my first year finding out about the stack..this brought me RIGHT BACK to that time. Great stuff.
> Urborg depends on blood moons timestamp
Technically, it doesn't.
The interaction is the same whether Blood Moon enters first or second.
Before applying either effect in Later 4 we see if applying one would...
- change the set of objects that the other would apply to...
- change what the effect does to the set of objects it applies to...
- cause the other effect to not exist
if we were to apply Urborg first...
- Blood Moon still applies to the same set of objects
- Blood Moon still makes those objects Mountains
- Blood Moon still has its effect
but...
if we were to apply Blood Moon first...
- Urborg wouldn't have any abilities and its effect hasn't been applied yet so Blood Moon would remove the existence of Urborg's effect therefore dependency
as a result Urborg has to wait for Blodd Moon to apply and once it does Urborg has no ability and no effect.
In the magus of the moon/humility example once that resolves what happens if someone plays a nonbasic land on the next turn? Since Magus of the moon now has no abilities now would just this nonbasic not be a mountain?
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied. Any time anything happens, the "Layers Program" gets run, so when a new land ETB, if it's non-basic, it will be a Mountain.
@@attackoncardboard hm that's so interesting. Thanks for the reply!
Great job. Thanks. But what about mishras factory with humility and the ability to pump each other up
Layers are constantly checked, updated and applied.
With Humility in play, when you activate Mishra's Factory, it becomes a 1/1 land Assembly-Worker artifact creature with no abilities (until end of turn). So when it becomes a creature, it will lose the ability to pump other Assembly-Workers.
Do new lands coming in after Magus of the Moon loses abilities still become mountains, or just pre existing?
Layers are constantly being checked, updated and applied. So when a new land comes into play. The Layers "program" runs, and it will apply the layers list to the card where appropriate.
So yes, new lands will ETB as Mountains (with Magus and Humility in play) :)
For the humility + opalescence I would have guessed that Humility would be a 4/4 but for another reason😅. I thought it would go like this: opalescence type change aplies first; the the ability removal from Humility happens making Humility creature not have any abilities; and then the power toughness setting comes in but only opalescence still have the ability so it becomes a 4/4.
What am I missing?
That’s how it happens. Assuming Humility was played first then Opalescence. Opalescence makes enchantments into creatures. Humility makes all the creatures 1/1 with no abilities. Then Opalescence (because it doesn’t make itself a creature it doesn’t lose its abilities) makes all enchantment creatures power/toughness equal to there mana cost.
but in that case the timestamps don't matter right? we simply follow the layers
What you're missing is that removing Humility's abilities in layer 6 doesn't prevent it from modifying a creature's size in layer 7, because that effect already started to apply in layer 6. An effect will never "half apply". Even though its abilities have been removed, it can still set creatures to be 1/1s in layer 7. So you need timestamps to determine whether they'll be 1/1s or 4/4s.
@@Chojan7189 I think timestamp does matter. If Opalescence is played first, it would make the enchantments creatures. Then, It would make all enchantment creatures power/tough = to mana cost. Then Humility would make all creatures 1/1 with no abilities. Since making the power/toughness are the same layer, timestamp mattes for which one will apply in what order.
4:50 what happens if you then remove magus of the moon? It has no ability so removing it should leave the command tower a mountain, but that just doesnt seem right.
Continuous Effects are constantly checked and applied. Any time any action is taken, the game runs through the Layers list. If Magus gets removed, the Layers "Program" gets run again, but this time there's no Magus effect to apply at Layer 4, so non-basic lands will go back to normal :)
@@attackoncardboard How does the Magus work with a card like Witness Protection? Since Magus is Layer 4 and Witness Protection is Layer 6 would that not mean that there is no way at all to remove the Magus effect since any effect that would remove the magus ability would ALWAYS happen AFTER (layer 6) the Magus already changes non-basics to mountains (layer 4)? (I'm ignoring the Layer 7 P/T changes as they're not relevant to the question I assume)
@@CloudsSword WItness Protection removes abilities the same way Humility does, so it doesn't affect Magus of the Moon making things Mountains.
I'm not sure what you mean by "no way at all to remove the Magus's effect", but in general that's not the case. For example, you could turn it into a copy of a vanilla creature using True Polymorph. Or you could turn it into a Mountain itself with Ashaya, Spreading Seas, and Trait Doctoring!
The background remember me to Smosh
What happens if there are 2 Opalescence and 1 Humility? Both Opalescence set their types to Creature, then humility says they are 1/1 without abilities, then Opalescence cant set p/t to 4/4 because of dependency, right?
What does locking the layer mean? Does it mean that any result or value set in a previous layer cannot be changed by ulterior layers? Thank you.
Example: I have a Wolrath deck and have always applied +1+1 counter on Wolrath on top of setting his values to a 7/5 because I thought subsequent layers modify what was before. Is this wrong?
When we start applying all the continuous effects, we apply them in order of the layers list from top to bottom. Once we apply the effect, any subsequent layers cannot remove or change their effect.
With Volrath's ability, his P/T setting ability happens in Layer 7b.
Counters come into effect at Layer 7c.
So he becomes a 7/5, then his P/T gets modified by counters.
@@attackoncardboard Thanks a lot! Great video by the way!
Incredible video but I'm still a little confused on how dependencies work, mostly because the term wasn't actually defined and I'm not sure enough on the definition to comfortably understand it
Context: the interaction between humility and magus of the moon. With both on the field, all nonbasics are mountains, and magus is a 1/1 w/o abilities. What, then, if magus is removed while humility stays in play? Would all non basics (played before magus) permanently be mountains? Because they only revert back when he leaves because he has that ability, correct?
No. The layer 4 effect that Magus makes is no longer there once it leaves the battlefield, so when effects are recalculated (which is "continuously and automatically performed by the game") it's removed.
In the Magus of the Moon/Humility example...what happens when I play another non-basic land? Does it become a mountain or not?
It does. Continuous effects are evaluated top to bottom constantly.
Ok, question time:
I have a deck with a lot of land animation. The deck sometimes also cares about creature colours and/or types.
Say I have an Ambush Commander, stating: [Forests you control are 1/1 Green Elf creatures that are still lands] and I play an Animate Land on one of the forests which states: [Until e.o.t., target land becomes a 3/3 creature that’s still a land.]. The land becomes a 1/1 green elf first, and then a 3/3 creature. But, is it still green and an elf?
If I play a Life and Limb, stating [All Forests and all Saprolings are 1/1 green Saproling creatures and Forest lands in addition to their other types.], with the ambush commander in play, it says [in addition to their other types] So they would become 1/1 green elf forest saprolings.
But if I play the ambush commander after the life and limb, do the forest lose the saproling type because the ambush commander doesn’t state [in addition to their other types]?
Also, are decks like these the reason I don’t get invited to commander nights anymore?
Rule 205.1b - "still a land" is the same thing as "in addition to its other types". First example is a green 3/3 elf forest, second example is green 1/1 elf saproling forests regardless of order.
@@siosilvar thanks!
One card stating the “in addition to” and the other not had me confused, but it looks like it doesn’t really matter 😄
Now I wonder why one card uses that line and another doesn’t.. ah well.
7:30 What would happen if Humility and Opalescence entered play at the same time?
Like if you restarted the game with Karn Liberated and you began the game with both on the field. This is just one example I could think of how two permanents would enter play at the same time.
APNAP takes over :) If you control both enchantments, you get to choose the Timestamp order. If you control one and your opponent controls the other, the order is Active Player, Non-Active Player.
@@attackoncardboard Is it APNAP or reverse? Layering seems to resolve in order 1st to last. APNAP, as it applies to triggers at least, puts them on the stack 1st to last but that means resolves last to 1st. So which way does APNAP go here
@@mse326
It's APNAP order to work out which effect has the earliest timestamp. The Active Player objects will have the earliest timestamp.
613.7m If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
So in the Magus of the Moon example with Humility, I had a question.
If Magus of the Moon, without Humility on the field is removed from the field, non- basic lands are no longer mountains and revert back to their orginal card text; correct?
If yes, then would removing Magus of the Moon while Humility is in play NOT turn non-basic lands back into their orginal card text. As the continuous effect that was already applied, no longer exists; it's reverting a non-existent effect.
Layers are constantly check, updated and applied. Any time anything happens.
So if Magus gets removed from play, so does their ability. So all non-basic lands would return to normal.
The reverse is true, if Magus is in play with Humility, any new lands that enter play will still be Mountains.
@attackoncardboard Thank you mate. It feels like you're coding when you actually state and apply the rules in real time.
Soo... for the first example: intuitively, I would say that at next state check (next time someone gets priority) all lands would return to its base form, since in that moment Magus of the Moon will have no abilities.
But, what you are saying is that when the Board looks at the cards again, it will consider its base text, so the Magus's effect keeps on, is that it?
Layers are checked, updated and applied constantly. Anytime anything happens, the game runs the "Layers Program". So while Magus is in play, its ability is constantly being applied at Layer 4. So unless you can remove that ability, it will keep on applying.
And in those checks, Magus will continue to have its ability, since the check is made on the base card text, right?
Thx for the answer @@attackoncardboard !
@@lucaslopes2911 yup. You'll need to remove the ability at Layer 4 or before to stop him.
Song of the Dryad is one way :)
I see. Thanks again,@@attackoncardboard,now it is clear to me!
How does the interaction of Ashya, soul of the wild, magus of the moon, and rootpath purifier work?
Magus is dependent on both Purifier and Ashya. Purifier is dependent on Ashya.
Apply Ashya first - All nontoken creatures you control are Forest Lands in addition to other types and have "T: Add G" in addition to other abilities.
Apply Purifier second - All lands you control (including nontoken creatures) are now basic.
Apply Magus third - All nonbasic lands (which you control none) are Mountains and lose other land types and all abilities and gain "T: Add R"
@@sanscipher9166 Not quite; Magus is only dependent on Purifier if there's a nonbasic land on the battlefield. (Doesn't change the result here, but it can in other situations.)
@@isaacking1524 Absolutely fair point.
first off. great video, i actually learned alot.
second. the fact that nonbasic lands are mountains with magus and humility in play really makes no sense. i know that's the rule but i don't like it. it's counter-intuitive.
Glad you enjoyed it ☺️
I'm likely to do a follow up on this video and see if I can find some interactions that will break the game if Layers aren't followed as layed out.