Thanks for testing a motor more expensive than I'd ever buy. Glad to know I'm not missing much. I'm down to one brushed truck anyway, those dang outrunners are addictive.
That's me with Fusions. But even at that, it's not like I have a ton of unused systems lying around. I just keep building more rigs to eat up more electronics.
I have an OG Fusion 1800 kv and I just can't convince myself to like it. It seems that FOC removes everything I like about little trail trucks. It's just... too perfect? Too digital? Like modern recordings compared to tape? I'm a brushed motor type of guy, definetly. I love the sound of them, the fact that they bog down when in a bind and I know it's time to find a better line.
You would NOT like the Fusion Pro. It's like putting in cheat codes. The power is so linear, I can do a whole line with the throttle held at a single position. I guess I'm more of a digital guy, because I'd own a dozen of them if I could.
Great review. I'm obsessed with Fusions on my "main" trucks, but I have an SCX10 ii F100 I have mainly for visiting friends and my kid. I've have been looking for a different motor for it (non-Holmes, knowing about your customer service experience with them). That Injora is definitely finding a home in my Axial.
Good review and interesting. I noticed the behavior of the rig (assume it's the batt) on descending. A few nose-stands. I was wondering, when you have SOA and BOA, is the 60/40 weight distribution just as important? Sprung, unsprung, etc. Maybe a question to answer when you talk about the change.
The nose stands are a result of slapping the battery on the servo and making no other changes. The rear is now oversprung and underdamped, because a quarter pound came off the the springs, weight moved forward, and I made no adjustment to compensate. It's all tunable-- it's just untuned. ATM.
for $14 with a few les teeth on the pinion and heavier shock oil - best value of these 3 - can't go wrong -maybe with a bit of curve tuned on the remote
Well, torque sleeves do work-- I've tried putting the sleeve from a 550 on a 540 and it did make a perceptible change in drag brake performance-- but it can only go so far. At the end of the day, it comes down to the size/strength/quality of the magnets. I'm not running any brushed motor that isn't a 540+, and all of those Surpass motors use neodymium magnets instead of ferrite magnets-- which is how a 5-slot 540 can hold like a 3-slot 550.
I’ve always used the Holmes Crawlmaster Expert 5 slot line of brushed motors which are in the middle price of his motors and I wonder how much better the Crawlmaster Magnum is for a price of $175 which to me sounds crazy for a brushed motor.
The price of hand-wound motor has always been crazy, and it's only gotten worse. I have no genuine idea who the buyer is for a brushed motor of that price-- because I can tell you that you could spend your life trying to wear out enough $14 motors to match it, and never get there. The Magnum is gonna be smoother, and have more torque than a comparable motor at the same turn count, but IMO those kinds of motors are well beyond the point of diminishing returns. They definitely fall into the same sort of situation where someone chooses a Rolex over a Timex. It's better made, and there's a cachet to it-- but it's not necessarily going to tell time more accurately.
Ahoy there! Have you tried the Reedy Radon box motors? I built a Enduro builders kit for my first 1/10 crawler and bought a Reedy (model# 27424) 540 16T 5 slot 1875kv brushed motor with a 1080WP and 18t pinion. Flysky GT3C radio. I’m curious if the rtr motors are different than the box/crate motors? People are amazed that it’s brushed and that it’s a Reedy cause it’s so smooth but has a ton of punch.
There's nothing wrong with the Radon motors other than the price. They're re-labeled Surpass 5-slots, and usually cost 30-40% more-- the "Reedy Tax." I never met a 5-slot motor that I liked (traded too much torque for too much smoothness, IMO) until I met the Rocket 540+ V2 motors, and never looked back. Anything I have that's brushed is running some flavor of Surpass 540+.
@@CrawlerCanyon good to know! If I remember correctly my motor was about $25-$30 dollars from Tower. I keep thinking I’ll upgrade to a Holmes but this Radon keeps on truckin. I’ve learned more from your channel than any other channel and I truly love the commentary. I have much to learn so keep up the good work my friend.
@@davincox-vt1gs The Surpass Rocket 540+ and NHX Momentum are basically bargain versions of the Holmes Magnum. The NHX is the cheapest. amzn.to/3SMUm5r
I think one of the differences that you inadvertently picked up on is break in. Once the brushes seat and make full contact, it changes behavior. The Injora is as Chinese factory fresh and stiff as a pair of payless shoes. Break in, and taking a minute to clean out the manufacturing gunk makes it as smooth as anything custom wound. Once it's transmitter/esc tweaked and geared right you can't tell the difference. I would pretty much guarantee the hand wound motor is prerun and broken in, and most likely the Tekin is at least run in on a bench. IMO paying anything over $20 for a brushed motor is ridiculous with all the great brushless out there.
The only exception I would make to that are the 540+ 5-slots, which are the closest brushed motors I've ever felt to the control and torque of brushless. Sure, much of that is negated by the fact that you can get a Rhino and an outrunner for the same money as a 1080 and a 540+, but hey... gotta have some variety.
@@CrawlerCanyon I would agree with that. However Hobbywings FOC has made brushed set ups and even some brushless seem archaic with the dreaded "rubber band effect". I still can't get fully comprehend I paid $70 for a 1200kv ES. (The latest units are 58mm long unlike the older ones and fit right into the VS410 with no modifications!)
I'd say the Brood is fusion crisp, the Tekin is milder than the brood and the Injora has more punch but better drag brake than the Tekin. I think for the money I'd go for the Injora and a curve in the radio. Or just go fusion :)
HD for sure, but that's my bias-- me and 5-slot don't get along. I haven't really liked a single one I've ever tried, and I've tried lots. The HD 35T is a great motor.
Sounds like you're hitting diminishing returns with each, but incrementally better refinement with each price increase. The performance of the Team Brood motor looked awesome on video. This is similar to guitars. Is the $5k custom shop guitar 5x better than the $1k production line guitar? Probably not, but the finish details and refinement will be better (assuming no ringers, and average examples of both). The people that buy custom shop things either want the prestige, want the best in refinement, or are at a skill level high enough where that last 5% is noticeable. People going to regional or national comps probably will want that refinement and predictability of a hand wound. Alternatively, if you're spending hundreds on the best chassis, transmission, axles, and radio, a builder is probably going to get a motor that is commensurate with the other parts. Otherwise, and here comes the social perception and pressures thing, people are going to be like, why'd you cheap out on the motor 🙃
The same goes for bikes. People pay through the nose for "boutique" stuff, when they could spend the same or less for custom, and get a frame made for their body. People are willing to pay a whole lotta money for prestige. I always remember an interview with a violinist from YEARS back (it may have been Anne Akiko Meyers) talking about owning a Stradivarius-- which spends 99% of it's time in a vault/humidor. When she would tour, she played a carbon fiber bodied violin, because it sounded EXACTLY the same, whether she was playing it on the top of mountain or on a beach. So I appreciate that kind of utilitarianism. I'll use that as the excuse to not buy things like $175 brushed motors, and buy $150 Fusion Pros instead. Works the same, all the time.
@@CrawlerCanyon Oh yeah my most expensive brushed is a Crawlmaster Expert at 45 or 50 bucks. Then I started getting into brushless options. I have a new Fusion Pro going into my new Phoenix build. I'm really looking forward to the torquey, quiet attitude of the Pro. I'm also looking forward to your impressions of the SE. I have to think there will be more similarities than differences on driving impressions
RUclips figures we don't need the ability to talk to people directly, so they did away with direct/private messaging a few years ago. Because... reasons, I guess?
@@Steve_J81 according to the internets, RUclips added direct messaging in 2017, and then took it away in 2019. All of the like "help articles" date back to 2019 or so.
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Thanks for testing a motor more expensive than I'd ever buy. Glad to know I'm not missing much.
I'm down to one brushed truck anyway, those dang outrunners are addictive.
That's me with Fusions. But even at that, it's not like I have a ton of unused systems lying around. I just keep building more rigs to eat up more electronics.
Motor bin tour? Brief thoughts on each?
That was great they all did better than i first thought
I have an OG Fusion 1800 kv and I just can't convince myself to like it. It seems that FOC removes everything I like about little trail trucks. It's just... too perfect? Too digital? Like modern recordings compared to tape? I'm a brushed motor type of guy, definetly. I love the sound of them, the fact that they bog down when in a bind and I know it's time to find a better line.
You would NOT like the Fusion Pro. It's like putting in cheat codes. The power is so linear, I can do a whole line with the throttle held at a single position. I guess I'm more of a digital guy, because I'd own a dozen of them if I could.
No no, I get the appeal. It's a fantastic thing that. I've always looked for beauty in imperfection. That's my jam.
Great review. I'm obsessed with Fusions on my "main" trucks, but I have an SCX10 ii F100 I have mainly for visiting friends and my kid. I've have been looking for a different motor for it (non-Holmes, knowing about your customer service experience with them). That Injora is definitely finding a home in my Axial.
Good review and interesting. I noticed the behavior of the rig (assume it's the batt) on descending. A few nose-stands. I was wondering, when you have SOA and BOA, is the 60/40 weight distribution just as important? Sprung, unsprung, etc. Maybe a question to answer when you talk about the change.
The nose stands are a result of slapping the battery on the servo and making no other changes. The rear is now oversprung and underdamped, because a quarter pound came off the the springs, weight moved forward, and I made no adjustment to compensate. It's all tunable-- it's just untuned. ATM.
Hi do the injora is producing a lot of heat?
for $14 with a few les teeth on the pinion and heavier shock oil - best value of these 3 - can't go wrong -maybe with a bit of curve tuned on the remote
I wonder if you slapped extra magnets on the outside of the can if that would increase the torque level of the motors.
Well, torque sleeves do work-- I've tried putting the sleeve from a 550 on a 540 and it did make a perceptible change in drag brake performance-- but it can only go so far. At the end of the day, it comes down to the size/strength/quality of the magnets. I'm not running any brushed motor that isn't a 540+, and all of those Surpass motors use neodymium magnets instead of ferrite magnets-- which is how a 5-slot 540 can hold like a 3-slot 550.
@@CrawlerCanyon Adding magnets on top of magnets increases the strength of the magnets so maybe I will do an experiment on this and see what happens.
I’ve always used the Holmes Crawlmaster Expert 5 slot line of brushed motors which are in the middle price of his motors and I wonder how much better the Crawlmaster Magnum is for a price of $175 which to me sounds crazy for a brushed motor.
The price of hand-wound motor has always been crazy, and it's only gotten worse. I have no genuine idea who the buyer is for a brushed motor of that price-- because I can tell you that you could spend your life trying to wear out enough $14 motors to match it, and never get there. The Magnum is gonna be smoother, and have more torque than a comparable motor at the same turn count, but IMO those kinds of motors are well beyond the point of diminishing returns. They definitely fall into the same sort of situation where someone chooses a Rolex over a Timex. It's better made, and there's a cachet to it-- but it's not necessarily going to tell time more accurately.
Awesome video
Ahoy there! Have you tried the Reedy Radon box motors? I built a Enduro builders kit for my first 1/10 crawler and bought a Reedy (model# 27424) 540 16T 5 slot 1875kv brushed motor with a 1080WP and 18t pinion. Flysky GT3C radio. I’m curious if the rtr motors are different than the box/crate motors? People are amazed that it’s brushed and that it’s a Reedy cause it’s so smooth but has a ton of punch.
There's nothing wrong with the Radon motors other than the price. They're re-labeled Surpass 5-slots, and usually cost 30-40% more-- the "Reedy Tax." I never met a 5-slot motor that I liked (traded too much torque for too much smoothness, IMO) until I met the Rocket 540+ V2 motors, and never looked back. Anything I have that's brushed is running some flavor of Surpass 540+.
@@CrawlerCanyon good to know! If I remember correctly my motor was about $25-$30 dollars from Tower. I keep thinking I’ll upgrade to a Holmes but this Radon keeps on truckin. I’ve learned more from your channel than any other channel and I truly love the commentary. I have much to learn so keep up the good work my friend.
I’ll check out the Rocket motor you suggested.
@@davincox-vt1gs The Surpass Rocket 540+ and NHX Momentum are basically bargain versions of the Holmes Magnum. The NHX is the cheapest. amzn.to/3SMUm5r
I think one of the differences that you inadvertently picked up on is break in. Once the brushes seat and make full contact, it changes behavior. The Injora is as Chinese factory fresh and stiff as a pair of payless shoes. Break in, and taking a minute to clean out the manufacturing gunk makes it as smooth as anything custom wound. Once it's transmitter/esc tweaked and geared right you can't tell the difference. I would pretty much guarantee the hand wound motor is prerun and broken in, and most likely the Tekin is at least run in on a bench. IMO paying anything over $20 for a brushed motor is ridiculous with all the great brushless out there.
The only exception I would make to that are the 540+ 5-slots, which are the closest brushed motors I've ever felt to the control and torque of brushless. Sure, much of that is negated by the fact that you can get a Rhino and an outrunner for the same money as a 1080 and a 540+, but hey... gotta have some variety.
@@CrawlerCanyon I would agree with that. However Hobbywings FOC has made brushed set ups and even some brushless seem archaic with the dreaded "rubber band effect". I still can't get fully comprehend I paid $70 for a 1200kv ES. (The latest units are 58mm long unlike the older ones and fit right into the VS410 with no modifications!)
I'd say the Brood is fusion crisp, the Tekin is milder than the brood and the Injora has more punch but better drag brake than the Tekin. I think for the money I'd go for the Injora and a curve in the radio. Or just go fusion :)
That Injora is tough to beat at fourteen bucks, I must admit.
For the price how which direction would you go between the Tekin 35t HD or the Tekin 16t 5 slot?
HD for sure, but that's my bias-- me and 5-slot don't get along. I haven't really liked a single one I've ever tried, and I've tried lots. The HD 35T is a great motor.
I was wondering how the injora would hold up against the pricey motors I have 2 of the injora's work great
I was pleasantly surprised by the $14 Injora. Definitely punches above it's weight. Not as smooth as the others, but I mean... so cheap.
Hmmmm, I have a Yeah Racing Hackmoto V2 35T sitting in my electronics drawer. 🤔
Sounds like you're hitting diminishing returns with each, but incrementally better refinement with each price increase. The performance of the Team Brood motor looked awesome on video. This is similar to guitars. Is the $5k custom shop guitar 5x better than the $1k production line guitar? Probably not, but the finish details and refinement will be better (assuming no ringers, and average examples of both). The people that buy custom shop things either want the prestige, want the best in refinement, or are at a skill level high enough where that last 5% is noticeable. People going to regional or national comps probably will want that refinement and predictability of a hand wound. Alternatively, if you're spending hundreds on the best chassis, transmission, axles, and radio, a builder is probably going to get a motor that is commensurate with the other parts. Otherwise, and here comes the social perception and pressures thing, people are going to be like, why'd you cheap out on the motor 🙃
The same goes for bikes. People pay through the nose for "boutique" stuff, when they could spend the same or less for custom, and get a frame made for their body. People are willing to pay a whole lotta money for prestige. I always remember an interview with a violinist from YEARS back (it may have been Anne Akiko Meyers) talking about owning a Stradivarius-- which spends 99% of it's time in a vault/humidor. When she would tour, she played a carbon fiber bodied violin, because it sounded EXACTLY the same, whether she was playing it on the top of mountain or on a beach. So I appreciate that kind of utilitarianism. I'll use that as the excuse to not buy things like $175 brushed motors, and buy $150 Fusion Pros instead. Works the same, all the time.
@@CrawlerCanyon Oh yeah my most expensive brushed is a Crawlmaster Expert at 45 or 50 bucks. Then I started getting into brushless options. I have a new Fusion Pro going into my new Phoenix build. I'm really looking forward to the torquey, quiet attitude of the Pro. I'm also looking forward to your impressions of the SE. I have to think there will be more similarities than differences on driving impressions
I sent you a message on instagram, I would have done it here on youtube but I didn’t see an option.
RUclips figures we don't need the ability to talk to people directly, so they did away with direct/private messaging a few years ago. Because... reasons, I guess?
@@CrawlerCanyon I was wondering because doing a google search shows I can. 🤷♂️
@@Steve_J81 according to the internets, RUclips added direct messaging in 2017, and then took it away in 2019. All of the like "help articles" date back to 2019 or so.