The REAL Downfall of Robb Stark | Game of Thrones | Forgotten Magic: Maggy the Frog
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- Опубликовано: 23 мар 2020
- The Hit Tv Show Game of Thrones was an adaptation of the Books A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. The Show runners David Benioff and D.B Weiss recently stated that they removed alot of the fantasy elements of a Song of ice and fire so Game of Thrones would appeal to a larger audience. I wanted to talk about this. The fantasy elements are some of my favorite elements but are also crucial parts of the story. I am making a series called Forgotten Magic and I go back thru and highlight how leaving out these magical elements changed the story. In this installment of forgotten magic I will show you the Real cause of Robb Starks downfall and how it happened before Robb Stark was even born. It all centers around one character and her forgotten magic, Maggy the Frog! Maggy the Frog's stroyline isn't only tied to Cersei Lannister, It also tied to Robb Stark, The Red Wedding and The Downfall of the King in the North! Thanks for Watching!
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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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Развлечения
I never really like, how they change the reason of Robb betraying Frey's, the "Robb married somebody he loved, insted of someone, who was just some random girl" argument. Here's a thing, that the Show runners may didn't realize. By doing that, they completely flipted Robbs character upsite down (at least in my opinion)
In the Show, Robb betrayed his honor willingly, while in the books, his action were made because of honor.
It's the hollywood minds of the showrunners. They wanted a classic love story so it made sense to their audience why he married her. Same way they changed Dario. Hot young Dany needs a hot young lover. That's the Hollywood way of thinking.
@@basquat76 The books also had Daenerys only 13 years old when she is wed to Drogo. Do you wish they stayed like the books, or are you glad they changed that for the show?
@@spirittammyk I wish Martin had written them older, cause they don't act their age. He did intend on doing a 5 year time jump, but couldn't make it work, but he does say he wish he made them older. They made her a little princess in the show though, even though in the books she is a bit of Tom boy. She likes wearing her Dothraki pants and painted west.
In the show all the kids grew up much much faster then the show developed. They probably should have thought of that in advance.
Honestly, there's some things that people complain about that really don't matter. I'm not a book reader, but the marriage Robb had in the books is just stupid. Robb meeting a beautiful exotic women from a foreign land was a perfectly fine change to the story. Also her reason for being in Westoros was a very noble reason. Robb is a young man with normal sexual desires. His relationship with Talisa wasn't some typical Hollywood love story. It was a reflection of 100% real world passion & love that has led many men to make bad decisions.
@@keitht24 Well in the books it might be a set up like most things are. I hate to be a spoiler but, Robb sleeps with a girl and feels obligated to make an honest woman out of her. His father knocked up a girl. That Stark honor at full display right there.
And his relationship with Talisa was a typical hollywood story.
We really don’t know how Maggy looked since we only get her description from Cersei, who’s not above insulting people who she hates so I take her words with a couple grains of salt.
shinrugal When Cersei says something, I envision the opposite 😊.
the show changes lots of peoples looks.
g0dseye I know it does but like I said this is from Cersei’s POV so it should be taken with a good dose of skepticism since she hated Maggie. And the people she dislikes are almost always depicted as worse looking than they are.
@@shinrugal and she remembers her from her childhood
But the witch is known as "the Frog", by others as well, because of how she looks. 🤷♀️
Tried to remove fantasy elements... From... a TV show based on fantasy books? That is stupidity on a level I cannot fathom.
It leaves us all baffled
Nobody can...
Because in the book it can be interested whether any given magic or supernatural event is actually supernatural or a trick. Remember everything is from the PoV of the characters. Whereas in the show if you show something its real.
Martin played with magic so well in the books. It's clearly real but some.chracters don't belive in it, some doubt it's power etc. But that's too much depth for the show apparently 🙄
It's like trying to make a Star Wars movie without the Force.
Thanks for keeping GoT alive for us the die hard fans 😃😃
The Young Wolf 🐺👑 I miss Greywind 😭 I wish they would’ve let us see them on the battlefield ripping Lannister men apart lol
Marley Targaryen At least we have MANY epic battles to come via Sapochnik!
"They call him The Young Wolf. They say he rides into battle atop a giant direwolf, they say he can turn into a wolf himself when he wants. They say... he cant be killed..." 😢
We didn’t even get to see Ghost rip someone up
We’ve all seen Theon’s ass tho
@@queens2nd2none that was a great scene in the show but sad😥😥😭😭
Robb was probably doomed regardless of the choices he made. Everything was a house of Cards.
Yes it was. And it is said that GRRM wrote out the Red Wedding before writing out A Storm of Swords.
@@marywilcox3102 He said when he got to that chapter he skipped it until he wrote the rest of the book
@@KurokamiNajimi Okay, so I was mistaken. Still, it would have been a tough chapter to write before or after the rest. After having read it, I can understand. Wow.
What if he just stayed home in Winterfell. The plot would have never took off😅.
@@dolphineachonga8724 the plot would have kicked off regardless either due to the war of the 5 kings, or the eventual arrival of Dany and or White Walkers. My point is that as long as he had to deal with the Freys he was FUUUUUUUUUUU.
Though I think it's unlikely, when Patches says "under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming...", a part of me wants 'mermaids will blow seashells' to mean Wyman Manderly will kill Sybell Spicer (House Westerling's sigil features seashells). I want that woman to get her comeuppance so bad. I don't think Lord Wyman will get his hands on Sybell, but if he did I could see him announcing his alliance with Stannis to the world by killing a Lannister flunky. Sybell betrayed Robb, and contributed to the Red Wedding where Lord Wyman lost a son. He has every reason to give her that work.
Brilliant connection!
I actually think that riddle foreshadows a Stannis-Aurane Waters alliance, going somewhere on the warships Aurane stole from Cersei. And Lord Manderly is involved because Davos will succeed in getting Rickon and Shaggy Dog back to Lord Wyman's custody. Which he promised to bend the knee to Stannis for. But a part of me still hopes he'll kill Sybell🤞.
Ashley of Naath Lady stoneheart is hell bent on revenge. If it happens I'm betting on her to do it.
Yup!!!
@@ashleyofnaath
Nah nah nah, Velaryon, Manderly, Baratheon alliance to fuck up every coastline until Euron dark magics their shit off.
I thought that Lady Spicer's reasoning for the betrayal was not just Tywin's promises, but also fear of what what had happened to the Reins and Tarbecks. Tyrion even mentioned how foolish the Westerlings were for joining the Starks. How near Castemere was to the Crag, Tywin should have annihilated the Westerlings for their betrayal, but he did not. That hesitation should have set off a warning bell for the Starks.
The Grey 🐺 wolf was trying warned but Robb just lock him up.
I HAVE TOO SAY YOUR VOICE GETS ME THROUGH ALOT OF LONG NIGHTS AND BEYOND.
Lordron Toryndo The juice we ALL desperately need right now!
It’s the juice time and we’re in and the night is long theses days, get us through.
Dip dip from the teee
Robb’s downfall began when Catelyn released Jaime. That’s when the Northern Lords lost faith in him.
But at the same time, she was right that he never should have trusted Theon Greyjoy.
His downfall became the moment Theon turned on him and the death of Renly fractured his plans
@Bonnie Cull true
@@vaibhavpachori017 that's so true he would have a bigger army with renly
sending Theon was the start
I can't remember if Catelyn says this in the book as well, but in the show she says that if Robb was going to break his promise to House Frey, she wished it would have been done with a more powerful house which would give a strategic edge such as marrying Margery Tyrell. I can't help imagine how different things could have been for everyone if that had happened. Imagine if Robb went to treat with Renly and felt a strong mutual attraction with Margery, and then Renly is killed and instead of the union of Tyrell and Lannister, a marriage of Robb and Margery united House Stark and House Tyrell... the forces of the North with the South. Of course that forgets all about the darker forces that were the greater threat, but from a purely political aspect it would have been an interesting alternative.
Now THAT is a fanfic I would read!
that would have worked well. I dislike what Robb does in books and the show. He makes too many avoidable silly mistakes and pays the iron price.
I will always be sad that they left Jeyne Westerling out, but this adds even more layers to the story! I just finished my first read-through (yesterday!) and now I get to soak up all this lore and backstory and theorizing. I'm enjoying your channel a lot!
It would have been too much to keep up with for the show
I have over a hundred pages left and I already start watching these videos. I know I shouldn't bc of spoilers but they are so interesting😫
I hate how they had Jeyne at the Red Wedding in the show. Because her not being there makes the Westerling betrayal of Stark so much more hurtful. Them deliberately putting Jeyne with Robb hoping he'd get her pregnant to force their marriage thus break the promise with the Frey's, knowing Robb is too caring they knew he would never bring a pregnant Jeyne to the wedding in hopes of trying to work this out as peacefully as possible. Thus, when they knew the Red Wedding was happening they knew they'd escape scot free without notable casualties. It just makes the Westerling's infinitely more hateable with Jeyne surviving.
The 'Jeyne' in the show was a prop to show off the actor playing 'Robb Stark'. D&D liked Richard Madden so damn much - and he is a looker, don't get me wrong - they changed the storyline for the show. Which begs the question: Why in the Seven Hells, is Robb's camp at the castle of Crag, which is in the Westerlands, in the show, if they weren't going to use that storyline? What a waste!
@@marywilcox3102 this mishandling of the Stark/Westerling relationship really did infuriate me
@@damienchristopher5652 They messed up a ton of book storylines in the show.
@@marywilcox3102 oh I am well aware, it was the first in a long line of fuckups and changes which shouldn't have happened
@@damienchristopher5652 Agree 100%. The sad part about it is that GRRM fought against these changes, D&D ignored him, and people still blame him. Ridiculous!
The show should stuck with the magic of the books. It was so intertwined with the story that taking so much out just screwed it.
I was very upset with the fact that D&D took out much of the magical elements of Game of Thrones. Maggie the Frog was ugly and what happened 2 the Valonqar. Cersei definitely killed her friend.
Thank you for this, I'm an ICU nurse and really needed some Westeros magic and lorecas an escape!
Wow, i had never though of the conection between Rob and Duncan Targaryen, Jenny and Jeynne. But it is clearly there, amazing.
Feast of Crows has a lot of potential that the show didn't capitalize, shame even the prophecy of cersei and even the Euron Greyjoy plot was interesting
I found the Feast for Crows is the best one. AFFC a feast for Crows.
This is crazzyyy .. I never realised the connection between Maggi the frog and the young wolf .. this is brilliant and mind blowing
Great analysis - loved it. Thanks for pointing those details.
Super stoked for this series! I love your GOT content. Thank you for keeping the love for Westeros alive!
Thanks for the video. That’s exactly why I subscribe. I haven’t read ALL the books yet, but this channel helps me understand what I have and haven’t read yet or what I read and just missed. Thanks again
This is a great idea, Gray! I'm looking forward to it!
Thank god for your videos....love that u actually know what ur talking bout...wish u wrotes season 8
@Gray Area Thanks for the video Gray! Miss watching your “Juice”! Can’t wait for The Winds of Winter book to come out! ... And the new tv show too!!
thank you for this video Gray just got into the books and are super exicted for all the stuff the tv left out, cant wait for TWOW!
Wow- thanks Gray for showing me just how much I've missed out on by only watching the show!
These topics are everything for me thank you thank you keep it up!
Loving your channel!
Well meggy sees the future more clearly because she got cersei blood, we know that blood magic is the most powerfull magic
How is sucking the a drop of blood curse you?.How it was blood magic?.
You make me laugh so much! Love listening to you, keep up the great work 👌
The show also left out the Stark army attacking the Westerlands to draw Tywin in. Tywin goes West to defend his bannermen & Stannis takes the throne & every Lannister heads would be on spikes. Then Stannis’s army & Robb’s army route the Lannister’s & destroy their house root & stem. Robb discovers the truth of why his father died. Robb then bends the need to Stannis, both agreeing that they now must prepare to defeat our common enemy, the only enemy that matters. All hypothetical of course.
Chris Connelly The King Of The North!
I know no other king but the one named Stark.
Being honest, If BloodRaven could control the Targaryen lineage, control Ghost, Mormont's raven and the voar that killed Robert, why couldn't he make all of this happen? It would've make Westeros more prepared on the fight against the Others and the Army of the Dead!
I love your videos so much, thank you for the work you're doing.
Excellent video! I have never heard the idea that Maggie the Frog might be part Children of the Forest. But the clues you have suggested are very intriguing.
You're hilarious and so spot on with your info! We really got shafted by them not going more into depth with Cersei's obsession and mental breakdown over maggis prophesies
Thank you for this video, my lady
thank you for this juice and the other flavors you provide!
"her husband was trader of pepper and saffron"
if the story was more realistic that guy would've been like a billionaire
I need to start reading this series. I loved the show and used to watch your videos religiously ❤️
I'm sure people have told you...but it's so worth it 💜📚✌️
I feel the same. It's just so hard to know where to start. I've bought and started half of the books. I started GOTs but we all know that tale so well now ..it was actually boring.. I tried ADWD but that was too far gone. I've got aCOKs . Perhaps it's time to retry that..
On a plus, I read A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and loved it!
Lmao! The picture you used of Cat looking at Robb !! Robb was my boy, RIP
Hi Gray thanks for the amazing video, we might not be in Westeros but we are going through our version of the #LongNight. Your fans appreciate that you, Quinn's Ideas and Lucifer Means Lightbringer are creating great content during this these difficult times.
Wow great vid!
Thanks for the Magic to get us through the long night. 🖤
Couldn’t have asked to find your channel in better time. Just on the re-read of ASOIAF, just got another sub, love from the uk!🇬🇧
Really like the illustration at about 2:10. Want that skull brazier!
Great video!!
This video was really interesting and brought up some things I forgot about. Will you be doing more videos like this or at least the summer hall video you talked about at the end of this one or is that in another play list? Just curious. Love your channel and videos especially obsidian nights. Would love to see more of those. Thanks again for all the great videos.
Thanks for the vids it's nice to get lost if only for a while keep up the good work and stay safe everyone.
I don't remember. But how did Tywin reward the Westerlings for their troubles? Now that Tywin is dead, Jaime kidnapped, Tryrion gone and house lannister hanging by a thread under crazy Cersei, was it a wise desicion on their part? Do you think they might pull another stunt, like claiming Jeyne is carrying Rob's heir? Or was that the end of the Westerling plot? Or will Lady Stoneheart exercise her brand of justice on them? Great video!
Can’t wait for the next one!
Really glad you are doing this series on magic in GoT. I think sometimes subtle magic gets lost in the story, and the big magics, like birthing dragons or fire wights or shadow babies get all the attention. 👏👏👏🎉🎊
I agree, but also think that she may have feared the Lannisters. Specifically Tywin, for obvious reasons. Great video! Keep them coming!
Everytime I terribelly missed this series, I’ll back here and felt this series still alive
7:08 OMG!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
You really know your stuff. How would you end the last season of the show? Thanks for your videos, you are a great story teller. Wish you or someone like you would have ended GOT with more satisfaction. Thanks again!
I have been holding out on reading the books again, I hoped to wait for the new book. Your content is peeking my interest, I also now seem to have alot of time on my hands (and soap), wonder if lockdown will end before I finish......
Outstanding video as you mention a fact that many neglect to realize, they know how much D&D butchered the story generally. The primary reason behind this (removal of the more esoteric and fantasy elements) is where you hit it spot on correctly. Yes the story suffers in the show because of the lack of spiritual and magical elements. There are a couple of other reasons, such as catering the character to the actor/actress. Thank you for posting.
of all the deaths, Robb's was always the one that hit me the most
till this day the damn red wedding still haunts me
Robb's voice was also great for ALUCARD in CASTLEVANIA
I haven't heard this theory before. Nice job presenting it.
Do you think that Jane left with the Black Fish and that Jamie is talking to the other daughter, based on their close but varying descriptions?
I think your onto something! Thanks
Love your videos. I believe lady Sybil betrayed Robb because he felt like he had no chance at winning. She knows Tywin Lannister's reputation and what happened to house Reynes and Tarbeck, given that I wouldn't side with Robb either I'd be too scared to cross Tywin Lannister even Roose Bolton knew that. I also believe jeyne could be pregnant because why did she almost bolt out of the room? Maybe she knew her mother was trying to make sure she couldn't have a kid so maybe she didn't drink the potion she gave her every morning.
Sydni Taylor Why would they tell Jeyne that? She could not have played the part they wanted for her so well if she was not truly in love with Robb
This was genius as usual Grey!
Great video, as always. But you don't have to keep telling us how the show falls short of the books. The show is great. The books are great. It's not a competition. It's okay to love them both. Mucho respect. Love your work.
Great video!
I wonder what will happen to the Westerlings. I hope Gawen ends ruling the Westerlands, but it doesn't seems likely...
So basically Rob Stark should have married one of Walter Frey's daughters as he promised.
Anthony Green yes, it’s a colossal fuck up on his part.
Colossal!!!
I'm not convinced Frey wouldn't have still killed Robb if Tywin told him too. Robb was a wild card, Tywin was a safe bet.
No, Robb being crowned was his downfall. If he wasn't crowned King, then he would've joined forces with Stannis.
@@rob3326 even though be would have had some chance at surviving if he had married the frey girl and had not been betrayed by roose Bolton he was younger than tywin and never lost a battle
Thank you so much for this video! I do not have a high opinion of a Feast for Crows or a Dance with Dragons compared to first three novels, but you do a wonderful job of putting together all the pieces of what I thought was a poorly-written mess on the page.
Amazing ! 😁🙏
Man, Ive read Asoif twice and it never hit me that Lady Spicer was giving her daughter birth control. I'm such a loser in thinking she was indeed giving Jeyne something to help her get preggers. 🤦 I'm so gullible lol
Gotta love George 😂📚
I also never noticed that before. I actually thought Robb was sterile or something.
Mr too😂
Links like the Westerlings. Should have listened to Grey Wind y'all!!! 😜 Can't wait for this series 💜 GHOST OF HIGH HEART❤️❤️
Yay! Love the juice!😁✌❤
Generally, I thought the prophecies in the Song of Ice and Fire were supposed to be vague. The only character that claimed to see the future with certainty was Melisandre. Ser Davos Seaworthy declared that Melisandre was a liar. In the books Maggie the Frog's prophecy has not come completely true... yet.
I like your point about why Lady Westering was in cahoots with Tywin.
I'm kind of over Game of Thrones, but that soothing voice of yours makes any video worthwile
These videos are all blessings ☺️
Open RUclips and Lookie Here!!! The GreyOne!!! *gets ready* this is gonna be good!
He was to arrogant and not willing to listen. However I loved myself some Rob. When he died I cried! I was like 😱Noooooooooooooo!!! They killed Rod 😭. Lol
If anything he listened to his dumbass mother too much
How did manage to misspell his name twice?
Tebert117 117 I guess the same way you manage to miss a word when typing your sentence.
Spence 😂😂 however his mom did say he was making a mistake marrying the Fray girl.
@@moniqueweb3136 he didn't marry any Frey girl he married jeyne westerling. And he did so because he took her maidenhood and it would dishonor her otherwise. That's pretty much the exact opposite of arrogance. The mistake that was made was Cat even agreeing to engage the king in the north to a Frey, without his consent I might add.
I'd also like to point out that the entire situation was orchestrated by Tywin.
I love all your videos!! You mentioned you work in healthcare , how are you handling it with all this corona stuff? Stay safe!
❤️from Atl....do a Q&A about yourself!
I completely forgot about Jenny's connection to Maggy the Frog. What you were saying about her mother seeing the future is very possible 🤔 Definitely food for thought.
Jeyne, you mean. Jenny is Jenny of Oldstones.
Love your not giving up on GOT❤⭐⭐⭐
🧃🧃🧃🧃Juice time. RIP Miss Cleo
I'll say it forever, I'd take Robb Stark over Jon Snow anyday.
Cherylle Johnson Richard Madden acted circles around Kit Harrington. Somebody please write a fan fiction about the one true... King In/Of The North!!!
Both are equally cool and iconic
to me,
@@GothicXlightning yeah both of them have amazing story's I'm just sad robs had to end that way I still liked rob stark a little bit more than jon snow and would have love to see a reunion with ary,bran,rickon,jon and sansa
i know the feel
Robb's fallen was definitively the moment that hurt me the most in the entire series
and the one i cannot watch for a second time
i remember i was going to be ready to stop watching GoT the episode were jon supposed 'died'
but after his resurrection i understood that he most likely will not die again
at least not for a wile
i know i care about both brothers about the same
but there is something special about Robb
most be cos he played also ALUCARD in Castlevania
Jon has done more as a single character in terms of development, and overcoming struggles. Robb failed in many ways, I love him but it's clear Starks don't do politics well, and Jon as (likely) half Targ is a "hero of men" in terms of the "gods flip a coin when a Targ is born" idea.
“Haggard, HAGGARD B!?CH!!!” 🤣🤣🤣
Definitely feels like the long night
Is Maggie the Frog from Grey Water Watch like Jojen and Meera?
Can you please do a video on the lore the different places in essos, sothoryos, the shadowlands, beyond the jade sea etc., please?
Can u maybe do a video about Margeary Tyrell, because I only saw the show. And for me at least, it would be interesting to see how she is doing in the books? Its just a wish u dont need to do it :)
I've been binging your videos and rereading the books.
About the prophecy given to Cercei, could the choking be a military choking? Like pale white throat meaning White Harbor and the Neck? And Euron being on both sides of the Neck?
EXCELLENT piece!!
dats why i Read, Books are betterer....
I think Jeyne inherited some of Maggy’s powers of seeing the future but hasn’t fully developed her powers. When Robb was leaving for the Twins, she said good bye to him 3 times and wanted to go with him. Sybell then tells Jaime that they didn’t know the Freys were planing the Red Wedding. It’s almost seems like Jeyne knew that Robb wasn’t coming back.
Sweet Summer Juice!
Hey, why is no one using the ASoIaF comic books from visual representation of characters? Isnt it riskier to use the actors likeness???
Hi sweet summer mom 👋👋
"But a hard head makes a soft ass" the you said that is everything 😁
00:55 Connective tissue! I’m late, I missed my pop up!
I realize they won’t remake the tv show and they would have to wait for all the books to be written, but it would be sweet to see maybe an animated show where it follows the books exactly and doesn’t change storylines or leave anything out. They would also be able to depict things how they actually are in the books like the iron throne instead of getting whatever sorry excuse for a throne we got in the show. The iron throne looks the way it does for a reason and it’s a shame we didn’t get to see the real version in the shows. That would have been awesome. I don’t think anyone even cut themselves on the throne in the show!
Oh, I think they will remake the show once the books are complete. It's probably why they are cancelling all of the spin offs because they want the popularity to die down so GRRM can finish the books.
An ASOIAF animated series would be INCREDIBLE!!!
It's doubtful they wouldn't change anything.
It’s is interesting that you say Robb and Jeyne’s story parallels that The Prince of Dragonflies Jenny of Oldstones.
Imo, Robb’s actions in no way, shape or form match with those of the prince of Dragonstone.
See, The Prince of Dragonstone gave up his crown and swore to marry for love.
Robb kept his crown and broke his married vows for lust.
See, the complete opposite.
see, The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, (to be with the woman he loved) and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.
Juxtaposed with “King” Robb who disgraced his crown, by breaking his solemn vow to marry a Frey daughter, because he had unsullied an young maid. And did not want to wed Walder Frey’s daughter, no doubt.
In the books Cercei just thinks that she is clever, a lionesses, Tywin in female body, but actually she is manipulated by pretty much everyone.
In the show she is the final villain, but in the books it seems she won't be. It's just a question who will beat her. Probably Aegon but we will see.
Also she doesn't understand the prophecy, so she ruined Tyrion life for nothing, Jaime is her little brother. He will kill her eventually.
I mean Cercie didn't have to kill her friend that night. She did it because she was afraid. But her own actions fulfilled the prophesy.
I don't think it was really fear... just showing her inherently self-centered & psycho side from an early point- I like how the series charts her devolution, contrasted with Jaime's evolution- that leads into her break from him later (eg. he was disturbed by how fascinated she is by the wildfire burning the Hand's Tower, he refuses her whims a few times after he becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard); while they both start out fundamentally similar & selfish, by Book 5, he's willing to think about more than himself- by going to the Riverlands, to try & secure Tommen's reign by ending the guerilla warfare there- & ignoring her letters.
I also think Cersei projected her issues onto Tyrion- not just the Valonquar prophecy (she doesn't think of Jaime being a possibility, because she thought of him as part of herself, at the time - her paranoia over the 'younger queen' has been growing over the years) & her father's despise of his deformity bringing down the Lannister family's rep, but- *& this is really just my speculation, here* - her shame at feeling *_relief_* for her mother's death; it's easier to pretend that she's a loving daughter, who's mother was 'killed' by a malformed monster- after all; she secretly hated all her companions when she was still a girl- 'everyone was always trying to come between Jaime & her'- it's a bit more _complicated_ when one of the people trying to keep you apart, the one who knows your deep, dark secret: is your own widely beloved & adored mother...
But, don't mind me- I'm just rambling & spit-balling, here, lol.
Wisdom Manari' Cersei is crazy, which is why she does what she does 😁. Aerys 2.0
Robb should have sided with Stannis. Two attacks on Kingslanding with Robb from the land and Stannis from the sea and happy ending for Westeros.
I don't think Robb would have agreed to burn down the godswoods, though. Much like Jon Snow even refused to side with Stannis when he was asked to be legitimized and made Lord of Winterfell by Stannis under the condition that he burns down the godswood. I wouldn't have done it either, I hope given the choice, I hope!
@@frederickirchhoff2413 maybe with an agreement they could have an alliance. Stannis is not at all close to the negotiations. Generally, he proposes very fair deal.
@@pierrelhommet1118 Stannis wouldn't have had it... He would have demanded Robb bent the knee
@@galty1987 yeah bend the knee with conditions. Stannis have tried to negotiate with Renly and Mance Rayder in the past
Robb could have but Stannis had not declared himself king yet and at the negotiations with Renly Robb had already been declared king. as far as they knew they were fighting a legitimate king which is why they crowned him instead of choosing a baratheon to kneel to. the choice was Renly as he had the largest army and was closer. the deal was made and agreed to. the very act of being a king prevented Stannis and him from being anything other than enemies.
Besides Catelyn had already attempted that by tying to get the Baratheon brothers to shake hands and hold a great council when the war was done to declare a king. Stannis flat out rejected this as did Renly.