How Doctor Who Ruined The Cybermen
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- The Cybermen behind the Daleks are arguably the most iconic Doctor Who villains ever. Introduced in the first doctors last story, the tenth planet, the cybermen have Plagued the doctor ever since. the 4th doctor faced them in revenge of the cybermen and companion adric even perished due to them. The Cybermen are one of the most scary villains ever put to screen. The cybermen returned in 2006s Age of Steel, where they were made instantly iconic yet again. In later episodes, the show moved away from the cybermens good traits around horror and technology and paired them with the Master instead. Removing any characterisation they had making them boring and ruining good plots like Ashad the Lone Cyberman with the timeless child and the master.
In today's video we look at the factors like them being overused which led to them being ruined.
World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls is still the last great Cybermen story. That is one of the best stories of the show period and my favorite Cybermen story. Its right up there with Tomb of The Cybermen and Earthshock as one of their best.
Have you listened to Spare Parts by Big Finish. If you like WEAT/TDF, you'll probably like Spare Parts too. Definitely a nice easy one to get into as well if you're new to Big Finish.
One of the cooler parts of World Enough and Time is how, just like Bill, you start off appalled at the state of the hospital and the patients, but slowly, over the course of the episode, become desensitised to the reality of the situation; it’s only when _Bill_ gets taken that you realise the full horror of it, and it’s at the same time as the companion.
For me the scary part of cybermen was the implied body horror. Ashad was a good design, so was torchwood and their icky failed and partial conversions. Obviously who cant have that massive amount graphic detail so i feel like it will never be able to capture that true body horror feeling. Originally the implication of it was alright, plus the horrific mental image of humans being forced into it, brains being removed the lack of consent and self control/bodily autonomy etc (like pg zombies i suppose), but after about 6 years of them just being "generic robot bad guy" they need some shock to the system to bring them back. They need visceral, shock and horror to spark the life back into them. And i hope they get that in a spinoff.
I once had an idea for a three-part Cyberman story. The first part shows the Doctor arriving on Mars and seeing the remnants of a crashed Moonbase Cybership that crashed into Mars following the Moonbase incident. Luckily, all the Cybermen here are long dead, but the companion, who at that point never encountered the Cybermen before, is curious about the Doctor's history with them, prompting the Doctor to reluctantly recall his first ever meeting with them prior to the Tenth Planet. The Doctor tells(in a full never before seen 'flash-back' adventure) the companion the story of the 1st Doctor & Susan mistaking Mondas for Earth shortly before they go to Earth, and they sort of witness and get involved with the creation of the first Cybermen, etc. Then, following a separate unrelated story in between this, the second part starts with the Doctor and the companion arriving on a planet that's not meant to exist, a planet called Neo-Mondas and meet a group of renegade Cybermen who, after a bit of misunderstanding are revealed to be somewhat more benevolent than the regular Cyberman, but there's a mystery as an unknown and very ancient trans-dimensional alien force left over from the Dark Times is trying to take over, killing everything in its path and the Doctor has to join forces with these renegade Cybermen and humans they're protecting as part of an experiment. Meanwhile, the threat of the hostile Cybermen looms overhead...
the issue with that is. hartnell doesn't reconise the cybermen in tenth planet. so you can't have a pre-tenth planet meeting. plus the whole doctor accidentally helping create the cybermen is done in big finish. spare parts.
@@TheWeepingDalekI have watched The 10th Planet recently. I think he does recognise them or at least Mondas.
@@danielyeshe I think he knows of mondas yes. But no real knowledge of the cybermen.
The thing is.
5:07 dont forget the cyber man head in series 1 in dalek
The cybermen in the age of steel two parter and then world enough and time i think were their best stories. These stories give the cybermen their humanity back which makes them scary. Ashad was a great extension of this part human part cyberman. One of the few good ideas chibnall came up with. Their pairing with the master/missy speaks more to a mischaracterising of the master. Clearly the writers don’t think that master/ missy is villain enough on their own. The cybermasters were a such a big mistake. Cybermen are scary because when a cyberman is killed they convert a human to replace it. A regenerating cyberman is more over the top novelty than scary villain. I don't mind their cameos, it helps flesh out the world they’re included in.
The Cyber Time Lords idea is rather cartoonish and feels like too often they're treated as just robots. What makes the Cybermen scary is not the robotic element but the fact that humans have been forcibly turned into them.
A world enough and time is the master/cybermen story that works the strongest. Death in heaven is cool but the cybermens independent ability is shadowed but the master. The chibnal era was the same for the most part (the cyber masters looked cool but we’re dumb)
One of my biggest problems with the Cybermen and the Daleks is the drop-off of continuity after series 5. Until after Victory of the Daleks, both villains had been given somewhat of a trackable timeline that us as the viewer could follow. But after that point, both villains were relegated to timeless empires. The cyber wars are mentioned but only vaguely, same for the new Dalek regime. Neither faction has any agency like they did in the 10th Doctor era, where you felt like you knew how/why the factions were where they are currently. As much as I loved seeing the Mondas Cybermen again, it was undercut but the addition of modern cyber models. I also think that the current appearance of Cybermen is too upgraded. We need to bring them back to basics to really delve deep into the horror. Doesn't have to be a classic model, just a more primitive version from earlier in their timeline.
I am a big fan of both The Cybermen and The Master but i do think doctor Who really needs to stop potting them in the same episode as they are better and more interesting separate the only exception is the session 10 two part finale
Here's an idea for making lemonade out of rotten lemons: bring back gallifrey and the cybermasters and say its become the new homeworld of the cybermen! Essentially say that the atrocities of time lord society have been revived with a cyber empire at its helm! Idk about you, but that sounds terrifying as fuck!
That does sound awesome ngl. Have the Doctor and Rassilon team up to stop them.
The daleks always beat the cybermen.
I love that they brought back the design from the 70’s
A shame they added that stupid stompy noise when they walked.
@@peytonmac1131 I agree
The doctor fall was the best use of them
I'd be great if we had a Cybermen episode that touches on the anxieties surrounding stuff like Neuralink and AI.
If I were to do anything, I would make a horror film that does not say that the story is related to Doctor Who (outside of a BBC credit and a Peddler/ Davis credit that would be picked up immediately by fans) featuring either a group of friends or a family that end up getting cyber-converted, especially if they were to use a variation of the Mondassian design. Play up the cloth replacing the skin of a face, show the true expulsion of emotions and betrayal, and remind you of the actual horrific nature it once brought. Even if you minimize the physical trauma and leave the more intense parts left to the imagination, there is a solid psychological horror there, especially if you include the backdrop of a crippling society that is getting pushed more and more toward a technologically advanced society that could fix their problems by upgrading and forcing their beliefs on others.
One issue is the fact the the cybermasters can regenerate and also Moffat making them just underlings to other villans and effectively robots. Also the cybermasters should have limited regenerations not be unkillable.
Less matter to regenerate means they have to spend less energy. I just assumed "unkillable" was an exaggeration, but they'd just have like 26 lives or something since it's just brain and nerves that exist in cybermen
The Cybermen would be perfect for a UNIT Spinoff since UNIT's first enemy were The Cybermen.
The Cybermen could probably be led by Ashad once again or a new CyberController/Leader
I wish Ashad's story arc had been a consequence of the Doctors unfinished buisness in the animated serial Real Time.
Having the power of love defeat them in that Godawful James Corden episode was a travesty.
Closing Time is the worst thing to happen to the Cybermen since the Doctor
Honestly, Ashad works way better than Mr. Clever, who was just "11th Doctor but evil with a cyberman thing on his face". Ashad was really an emotional cyberman done well, you see the human he once was, but the only emotion he has is the hate for his own humanity. He WANTS to be a robot because he hates being part human. Not only it gives us a new type of cyberman, it also fits the premise of the cybermen to upgrade yourself until you loose your humanity, just in this case not for survival, but out of hatred.
I'm not sure I'd say they were ruined but more like, deviated from their original horror - the idea that they are organics forced into cybernetics with useless bits removed, is what makes them interesting - I feel NuWho, up until World Enough and Time leant too heavily into them being a robotic army, which makes them cold, but to be reminded so viscerally that they are people, really makes the stomach churn.
Its why Ashad was such a great character (alas thrown away so carelessly), you can actually _see_ the man in the machine, feel his pain. He was both compelling and scary, and he was just one lone cyberman.
The Lone Cyberman was probably the only good thing in the Chibnal run, he was kind of like the anti-doctor. And then they killed him in a quite ridiculous way after three episodes.
Then brought him back as a clone without any point.
Great vid
I think the use of the Cybermen in Doomsday was novel at the time and I like that and at the time it was fresh. Rise of the cybermen and age of steel is my favourite new who cybermen story I have seen (living in Republic of Ireland with no access to BBC player and Doctor Who off Netflix) I feel that it is the most relevant Cyberman story and the Cybus Cyberman suit is a nice in between the old who suits and the new who suits that came after with them having a human shape, plastic hand areas, hydraulics, not entirely metal giving them a clunky look, restricted to the ground only, the helmet that reminds you of the skull.
Decent amount of body horror in that episode from screams in the conversion chamber, the autopsy of the Sammy Feeling cyberman, the encounter with the Jackie Taylor cyberman, the cyberman wailing and that one cyberman looking into a mirror sobbing after the emotional inhibitors are disabled. Believe the additional material explores the Cybus Cyberman story in the parallel earth further.
As for a new villain for a season end the one who waits as mentioned by the Toymaker. I rather that it be like the River Song arc where it takes place over multiple series’s.
have you seen the world and enough time/the doctor falls? its better imo
Imo with the current leaps in technology we are having (e.g. AI generated images/footage getting uncomfortably realistic or Elon's Neuralink), the Cybermen are more relevant than ever!
Like I'd kill for a Cybermen story where they are trying to become human-like again but they just can't get it right, something's just always off - maybe at the climate of the episode, they finally perfect it and start an invasion or something. Yes this about AI art/footage. And yeah this is basically the monsters from Wild Blue Yunder, but the body horror aspect works for the Cybermen (frankly they need to focus on the body horror more, that's one of their strongest strength). It also makes them more humanoid again, an issue I have with New Who is that the Cybermen look too much like robots.
I wouldnt say Ruined but just overused
the cybermen did appear in the 3rd doctors era as a cameo and they appeared tons in the 2nd doctors era. But overall you're right
A fun statistic is that the Cybermen appeared in Episode 12 of every series in the Moffat era. Literally every single one of them.The Pandorica Opens, Closing Time, Nightmare in Silver, Death in Heaven, Hell Bent, The Doctor Falls.
As a NuWho fan, I don't know too much about ClassicWho, I'm only just getting into that, but I must agree, when they where reborn for NuWho to lead up to Doomsday, they were brilliant, they were fine then, but as time has passed, they replaced even the Daleks as the finale bad guy fodder, and they're being done no justice anymore. Maybe with the 15th Doctor they can be utilized better, but we'll just have to see
Crazy timing for this video to drop cuz I was literally watching their reintroduction in Series 2.
My problem with the cybermasters is that they can survive regeneration!!! Thing that can destroy literally everything is now "controlled"
I believe it's just the organic parts that get destroyed and recreated during the regeneration, so generally just the brain.
@@toast99bubbles meta-crisis doctor appeared from palm of the hand
@@alex-oh8bh I was referring to the organic material left in the CyberMasters. The only organic parts in them would be the brains. As for the Meta Crisis Doctor, that was a while separate situation where leftover regenerative energy was siphoned into the hand.
the issue is what triggers regen. it's when the body is dying not dead. meaning a timelord would start regenerating during the conversuion.
you mean how Moffat ruined the Cybermen, Davros, and the Sontarans and his own Angels.
i mean. was it him who ruined them. lets just look at the cybermen stories of his era. 1stly you have the cybermen being part of the allience to trap the doctor and save the universe from him. sure a cybermen being killed by a sword not the best but it was weak and technically he wasn't killed by a human but an auton. no real issue there.
the next story was closing time. that wasn't written by moffat. and honeslty only the ending lets it down. you can't undo cyber conversion. otherwise it's quite a solid cyberman story. heck if craig had stayed converted i would have considered it one of the best.
you then have nightmare in silver. again. interesting idea. having the cybermen. learn to adapt and overcome weaknesses is a good concept. yes the light speed never being used again is dumb but the fact that they adpat to weaponary is a good idea. they constanyl upgrade to survive.
trenzalore. stuff. ok. dumb wooden cyberman. but thats it.
dakr water was the 1st time teaming up cyebrmen and master. not a terrible idea at that time. and having them turn to even converting the dead is very much the zombie scene. with only the strong willed keeping the soul and overcoming the programming.
then you have World Enough and Time doctor falls. one of the best cybermen stories.
davros. umm. while not biggest magiaance apprencite fan davros was one of the best bits of that story. and the dialog he had with 12 is great. it really makes you think that while yes it was a trap. he genuinely connected with the doctor.
sontarans. well. he never really had a Sontaran episode just a charatcer who happened to be a sontaran. and it's explained what was wrong with him.