I understand Snady's joy over snap fits for production, but as an end consumer these things are a G-D disaster making a modern car more difficult to work on. Most snap fittings cannot be removed without damaging them. Not to mention environmental deterioration making them brittle. And while repairs may be rare for most people, They do some times occur. I've got a 2014 Tundra that has had rear bumper applique fittings fail as well as front metal grill fascia snap fittings starting to fail. There is no way to repair these built in failing snap fittings.
Couldn't agree more. I LOVE bolts. A trusty socket set and you can work on almost any part of an old car. Meanwhile I have broken multiple panel clips on newer cars. I wish there was a middle ground.
I keep wondering how you can do any kind of collision repair on these cars before totaling them. Sure, a few pounds of bolts hurt the advertised specs, but I probably carry more weight with the junk in my glove box.
The solution to the issue could be to include bags of extra snap fittings with the vehicles. They're mainly a PITA when they break and you have to find replacements right then.
9:15 Sandy.. it is VERY design complex and expensive to "simply turn that connector" on that module box. Because it is a sealed connector / box, getting a right angle connector in there is NO picnic. I've been designing this stuff for vehicles for decades.. .. a cheaper solution would be to mount the box without a bracket as you showed... but NOT turn the connector on the box, instead use a different connector system that has a LOWER Profile so it fits in the space there.
You can see that Ben is starting to get a bit more comfortable in front of the camera. It's cool to see him come into his own so that it's not just the Sandy show. (though I do enjoy Sandy's straightforward delivery and straight talking).
Full disclosure: I am not a car manufacture engineer or what so ever but I am an engineer in IT and I have a construction exp. Few moments: 10:40 - This stamped part separated for a simple reason - it will be a problem to have a robotics automated welding with that sticking part. So they just took a shortcut and put it after the welding. 10:06 - that plastic part with an angle. The trade-off they have here is simple: they decided to go with an external complexity with a simple internal board design. The L-shaped connector is the simplest way to mount any connector to the board. To mount a connector that aligned directionally with a board is more complex. So tradeoff made right - always go for the complexity with a bigger part if the other parameters are about the same.
My interpretation of that shelf was also possibly an NVH reduction on the PCB. All the hard bumps the car experiences with that PCB attached to the frame might loosen board components. I'm no EE though, just a guess unless there are feet/isolaters inside that box.
I love the disassembly montages. The production quality of these videos just keeps increasing! Also having Ben go through the disassembly process with Sandy giving supplementary info, insights, and anecdotes is so great
I imagine that the box in the fender is probably on off-the-shelf item for Ford so they made the mounting bracket. Or maybe it needed some vibration isolation so it couldn't be mounted directly to the metal? The nylon bracket would have some vibration reduction. Or perhaps there is a directional sensor of some sorts in that box that needs to be oriented in a specific way.
LoL. The folks at the beginning look like office workers who got bored on their lunchbreak and decided to prank their coworker by taking their car apart :D
The Mustang Mach E Premium long range battery was delivered to me three months ago. It is one of the best vehicles I've every owned. I can get up to 270 miles traveling at speeds between 70-85. After traveling that distance, the level 3 chargers will charge up to 80 percent within 20 minutes or so. The ride, handling and noise reduction are outstanding. It handles similar to a sports car when in "unbridled." There is a learning curve, but it is well worth it. Ford has done an outstanding job for their first EV!
you break one of those snap fits and you have to replace the whole component. This is what is destroying insurance premiums. Good for the OEM's bad for the consumers in upkeep costs which result in higher premiums
Near the end talking about nesting plate, where I work we call the waste "drop". Sometimes if it is significant enough to use later, said remnants go back into stock for future use. If too small or bad geometry then it goes in the recycle bin. It's fun to hear this talked about on the car manufacturing side, it's always a balance of working with stock sizes and optimizing for sheet usage that also makes for the least amount of weld. Sometimes it is preferred to make welds where we can use coil sheets vs standard 96" or 120" wide sheets. Cost/lb plays into usage since coil is cheaper. In the case of these car parts, they're mostly small and you have the freedom to work with whatever size sheet your heart desires. Typically thinner gauges only come in 48" or 60" wide sheets though. We typically work with 3/16" to 2" thick plate so we can be picky on what width/lengths we require from the mill to minimize splices etc where a standard length won't work.
Sandy talking about nesting and waste reminded me of something I did 40 hears ago. Was sitting in a bar with a friend and for some reason, probably beer-related, we started unfolding a cigarette pack from a well known brand that came in a red and white pack. Anyhoo, we messed with it and made a prototype to test our idea. With a small and insignificant change to the design and folding, and careful nesting we saved 20% material. Sent our idea to the manufacturer……and never heard a thing. Kept expecting to one day see our idea implemented, but I gave up smoking not long after :)
I'm guessing that they use a single fender attachment piece to guarantee proper spacing for the side fender clips. That piece probably goes through tolerancing that the main BIW doesn't. If they remove that center beam and replace it with two pieces then that spacing could be problematic.
I like the fender brackets. They are a bit adjustable also. If it was part of the upper apron assy insurance would write full refinish time on aprons something like 1.8 vs .3 for a bracket. And customers who always bump the RT or LT corner of car pulling out...and it’s a lot would have to only purchase a $20.00 part. Most of these brackets can be bent back with your little pinkie but some are overbuilt stamping that should be rethought.
Based on precision requirements for mounting body pieces, you would want the mounts to be very precise. As Sandy mentioned with Castings, you could remove parts and still maintain precision by also eliminating the welds. So, it CAN be done.
@@johnnicol8598 A new platform does not mean all new parts. To save money, you might re-purpose existing designs rather than pay for tooling up all new parts.
@@mfridmanyt Granted. And I agree. However this is there first real endevour in to the all battery market. Honestly looks pretty weak to me. Some of it is all new and point on. A lot is just God awful though. This is not a low end vehicle, nor priced that way.
10:20 do you think this bolted on to make collision repairs easier? If all of the fender attachment points are welded or stamped as part of BIW, it seems like repairs would be hugely complex and expensive with a lot of cutting, welding and fabrication.
I initially thought the same thing, but then I realised that the mounting pieces that those brackets are bolted to are welded to the BIW, and there’s no reason to expect that in an accident only the bolted-on piece would deform and the welded bits would survive intact. So there’s no real difference in terms of repairability.
Everything should be meant to be repaired. If we treated people like these new cars, we'd just toss em' in a dump after they turn 40. "Green" cars should be maintainable so that they don't fill up landfills like E-waste already does.
The probability of that kind of collision needs to be multiplied by the cost savings to understand whether that is actually a smart idea or not. You also need to consider the time value of money (and interest rates) from an accounting standpoint. Otherwise, a consumer would rather just put the savings in their pocket and get charged a negligible amount more to insurance company, which can then also invest that money into bonds to reduce costs further.
@9:40 even simpler: snap-mount the connector into the chassis (there's a big hole where the cable comes through) and just plug the electronics box into it. That way the connector itself will function as a mount.
the mounting bracket is probably there to move the electrical connector and potential leak areas away from a surface and vertical orientation where moisture will run over it, into the upside down orientation held away from cold metal and/or wet wheel spray.
The problem I have experienced with these snaps is that with time they get brittle and they break taking them apart. I still like the old fashion screw and nut plates much better.
9:50 You may be seeing a side effect of rapid development... they may not have known the dimensions of the module by the time the chassis accessories were ready for testing, so they designed a bracket so all that needs to be known for the people doing that module packaging is that there's a mounting method and a given amount of space available. I'll bet during the next refresh that bracket does go away and the module is mounted in a manner that reduces material cost, since now they have the module and can work backwards from that.
@@Conservator. None. The only benefit is sleeker design and cost saving. The stock will love you, the costumer and the workshop hate you. So the decision is clear.
@@febrianadji5758 There are 8 year old Tesla’s being sold here in The Netherlands for over €30,000. The average age of cars is 13 years here. Yes, BEV’s produced today will still be around in 10 years time.
I have a 2007 Fiat with similar ideas on the front bumper panels. They are all fine, but broken clips on black trims would get refitted with acrylic sealant.
If you are Ford employee watching this please 👍 Not as joke. It is actually sign of respect being able to watch someone critical of your work and thinking whether it is worth taking into practice...
Or for damage repair costs. Insurance companies have quite a big input on design nowadays as cheap insurance equals more fleet sales equals more profit. If you bump the fender and bend the mount, the bolt on bit is much cheaper to repair than anything that requires welding.
The platform (that electronic box is situated) on page 8:03 is intended to distant the spill over water (of spinning front tire) from bordering the electronics. So the box and connector need not be splash proof.
Depending on what that electronics box is, it may have to be oriented with the board horizontal. If it contains an IMU or compass or multi-axis accelerometer or something else that measures movement, orientation matters - they will often be more accurate when measuring around one axis than another. The right angle bracket may have been the cheapest solution for aligning with the car, especially given the other options are 'a chip that's more accurate in other axes' and 'dumb PCB tricks' like putting the chip in question on a sub-board with some kind of interconnect.
I agree with V R. Once the plastic cracks or yellow or pits to the point of a home diy person wanting to replace the headlights it looks like a bigger chore.
Thank you Monroe et all for continuing to point out OEMS lost opportunities for usable/convenient storage/stowing. Usable storage is more critical w/smaller cars (ID4), I had an 01 Echo w/tons of storage/stowage. Our slightly large 02 Civic design engineers missed nearly every opportunity to incorporate an inkling "usable/convenient stowage/storage.
Love the detailed look-see. What you might be missing when you ask why component X was not incorporated into component Y is the concept of “Commonality of parts”. You are looking at this car and only this car. FORD makes a whole bunch of cars. So, for example, that control box bracket in the fender well might have been used on another car. Also, the right-angle connector might fit more elegantly in other FORD cars and just a bit more awkwardly on this particular car. You have to look at car design programmatically, which is understandably difficult for you to do since you are scrutinizing just one vehicle in their lineup.
The Mach-E has sold 10,500 units as of end of May. They are experiencing demand issues. EV buyers are not looking solely for a electric drive train, they want the latest technology. This is what VW and the other legacy autos are learning the hard way.
@@CoreyWoodcox The sales numbers for VW ID4, ID3, Mach-e are in decline. Those are the facts. They are following the trajectory of the Audi eTron. And I imagine you are thinking what is a e-Tron.
Those brackets are bolted on later in the process because the stamped sheet metal has to be able to be stacked for transport. It won't stack with extra brackets hanging off of it.
If I owned an E-Mustang and was inclined to want to work on or repair it, I would love to be able to buy from Munro a set of videos on how they dissect this car....it would be way better than a shop manual.
Tearing things apart is easy, getting the torque values however is the part you pay for. Luckily with the internet, someone usually beats you to the replacement and they share their knowledge. Welcome to the information age.
@@gwarlow I think that they overcharge at a dealership. I do any car repairs myself. I don't mind paying fair prices, buy prices through the roof are unacceptable.
Around 10:20… this looks like it's good for easier replacement of a dented/disfigured quarter panel and bent bracket... People do fender benders all the time...
Great analysis! But this question: Why do you keep calling it “the body in white?” Isn’t that a holdover from when a body could be pulled from the assembly line with “white primer” but in an incomplete state? It seems like this could /should be referred to as “the body” or the car.
The SORB test was the test the Tesla Model S 2012 and 2017 (revised structure) got a yellow (average) rating from IIHS. Many were hoping for a revised Model S for the recent refresh, but Tesla didn't indicate whether any changes were made. If you look on the IIHS website, you'll see that most compact cars score better in this test than Tesla. Munroe Live, can you comment?
Overall Ford’s done a nice job on this car. Build is very good (with room for improvements) and real world range is up there with the best. Maybe Ford can take some of Munro and Assoc. recommendations and make the next MachE even lighter and more efficient. Great job for your first real competitive EV Ford.
i would bet that some of the parts they are talking about optimizing are existing parts from the part bin and not newly designed for Mach-E. This of course shortens the time to develop and qualify the part for its use in the vehicle and spread the cost across multiple vehicles
My model Y shut off on me twice on the freeway with no warning and getting it fixed was an exercise in frustration and anger management. When it was eventually fixed I traded it for a Mach E and im really enjoying it so far.
As someone who's had to replace headlights for people after a deer hit or a fender bender, having the headlights actually mount to the bumper like that sends alarm bells ringing in my head. Not only does it mean that you HAVE to replace a damaged bumper now, but it also makes it critical to have the bumper mounting points exactly in place or the headlights will be pointing off worse than that guy from scary movie 2 after you take his glasses off.
One more thing we in the auto service industry are so overlooked in this one area. We sell cars. That’s right our customers always ask what car to buy next. And if you got the work van with the welded hinges on and the kit from oem to swap out said hinges are overpriced. and come with pre tapped backing plates special hardware and drill times of 1.5 hrs plus refinish two stage and small bead of seam sealer. Asks me what to buy next...it’s not that one trust me. Oh shhhh we also sell insurance. Wink wink.
Single use cars. Undercarriage with battery electronics etc. Body with seating and a canvas for weather protection. I guess battery weight + 200kg for the rest. Yes!
Kitchens have way too many fasteners and who in the right mind thought plywood would be a good idea arount water?? We need an injection molded standard cabinet that can be custom fitted to the sadly random kitchen spaces. Also kitchens are way overpriced for the materials used.
Snap-on for the headlights, that''ll make for expensive gentle bumps... Possibly similar issue for fender bolt-on bracket, maybe a way to avoid touching the body in white for gentle side swipes.
The wide-body kit will need different brackets for the fenders. Also using different brackets bolted to the same crash rails... 2023 Ford Taurus, Ford Explorer, Ford Et Cetera
While powertrain tech is important, we buy cars for the stuff we can see - interior and exterior - and performance. Taking cost out of the body and improving performance at same time will always have a place in vehicle design.
That under-fender bracket screams of module re-use. Use a bracket to make an existing module work. Those extra brackets looks like last minute redesign decisions for styling.
As manufacturers design their vehicles very specifically to past specific tests like the small overlap one I wonder how well that actually translates to better survivability in the real world. I suppose it will help but I also feel that making a design that is optimized for one very specific amount of overlap would cause compromise in other amounts of overlap. Would almost be better if the testing was done at a random point that the manufacturer wouldn't know within a range to force them to build more to safety in real world crash scenarios rather than building just to pass a very specific test. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about though I'm certainly no expert.
9:30 Sandy, I am confident the purpose of that $2 shelf is likely more serious rock-chip protection of expensive electric component, from tire, in case that inner-fender became damaged/missing (a common situation).
@@raddaks2039 my opinion, fine example to learn from on the next fresh design for ford, but I think a perfect example of us being fools wasting our time postulating the how what why, when we don't have any inside knowledge and Ford could have spent millions on multiple teams trying to attack the same problem without inter-communication between teams, and pushing the corporate envelope / yearly narrative.. deadlines must be met, and $2 shelves exist. It's BS and there is deeper technology being suppressed, for the mainstream narrative. IMO important we don't lie to ourselves and consider at least, if we want to get anywhere.
It sure looks like that electronics box bracket is a design-for-repair consideration. If it were bolted directly to the metal work, it'd require a right-angle driver and much more fiddly hand work to install, along with probably a slightly larger footprint to have top-edge fasteners still accessible from the bottom reaching up behind the fender. Perhaps they intend to eliminate it in the future if the longevity of that module proves sufficient - maybe those electronics don't have a lot of miles on them yet for that confidence.
I disagree with the idea that threaded fasteners are bad. Plastic snap-fasteners will get brittle with time & temperature extremes, and they will tend to break rather than yield and come loose. Later repairs will get a lot more complicated with snap fasteners, and more expensive because more parts have to be replaced.
Everything is a trade-off. Where is your priority for cost savings? Also, which repair scenarios should be easy? Which ones are infrequent or imply the car is totaled? You look at everything and seek to minimize TCO, total cost of ownership.
Sandy does not care about repairability. He has said so on previous videos numerous times. He only cares about initial production costs. "Hey boys and girls, let's make a car that will terrible for you in a few years." I'm with you. 5-yro snaps are terrible to work with. The worst is that its often the retainer on the part that breaks instead of the disposable clip! It's so much nicer to unscrew a bolt. It seems to me that a repairable car will retain value in the used market.
I’m a very long time crash fan. i study all the details closely. good job on the “sorb” and strategizing and prioritizing energy management. i wonder if ford is using 1500 mpa steel for its lower sections around the toe pan, rocker panel, and a pillar? not that it’s necessary. but fun to know
btw props to Volvo whose S80 from 2007 as the oldest model that passed this test as well as the 2013 Accord with its ACE body structure. The Infiniti G37 sedan from 08ish also did reasonably well. everyone else failed miserably. As for side impact, the industry is about to get shaken up by the IIHS side impact 2.0… stay tuned. newsflash: the current Camry will be a super star. the accord acceptable. The VW Atlas also superb, having the strongest body ever tested.
Great video, anybody else notice at about 1 minute and 10 seconds there is a slice across the top of the radiator or condenser whatever it is. Goes diagonally from top right to bottom left it's possible it's supposed to be there I don't know why though it definitely looks like something cut through the top of it. Perhaps something happened while they were disassembling the vehicle
Once again FORD are thinking of making work for their dealers so that the customer would be forced at some point to bring the vehicle to be serviced at the dealer's servicing dept. BRAVO FORD you say Sandy, to which I say you are correct in assessing that the parts are there to make work for another dept.
Yeah, that plate is going to absorb the shock but it's another element to gather mud, salt and schmoot to make the car rust as fast as possible. Great planned obsolescence idea ! Built to self-destruct !
The chips inside the module mounted directly on the body would probably fail due to excessive vibrations over the years. Having it on the platform reduces vibrations. Comon Sandy, you can do better.
I've been looking around maybe this is the right channel to ask this question when a car manufacturer completes a car and it's parked how long can it be stored like that until it's considered damaged goods I'm assuming the first failures are going to be like gasket, seals and chemicals in the motor, chemicals throughout the car take your pick but how long are they stored or parked until they're considered damaged goods
Snaps give a lower score for insurance during accidents. So higher risk of getting a car scrapped out after an accident. It can be as little as a body seal and 12 snaps on a BEV to have insurance just scrap the car.
@@mamadouaziza2536 It looks like they are meeting their goal to buy the Tesla. As fast as they are raising money, he'll spend non of his money to buy the Tesla plaid.
1. Don’t see the point in saving a few grams on a Ford considering the supersized Americans that drive them. 2. The criticism should be around why the electronics box is not installed in an easily accessible place, like under the bonnet. Ah that’s right there was no space because someone wants to put his handbag into a frunk.
What would be really interesting, and probably impossible for it to happen, is having the engineer at Ford explain why they choose to design the section Sandy wants to change the way they did. Why did they design the module so that the connector snaps in at 90 degrees rather than straight in at 180? It would be insightful to understand the thought process that lead to that decision. Without that knowledge suggestions regarding making changes are guesswork.
I had to look this up: Body in white is the stage in automobile manufacturing in which a car body's frame has been joined together, that is before painting and before the motor, chassis sub-assemblies, or trim have been integrated into the structure.
That control box at 9:30 is likely to be another parts bin special. Ford purchasing won't source anything more suitable so the body engineers have to make a bracket. BUT - why is the control box not inside the front trunk area clipped to the scuttle??
I can’t help but wonder if those brackets coming out from the fender to hold it on aren’t a separate piece to accommodate repairs should a small fender bender occur. It seems to me that integrating a lot of that into the major structural portions of the car would drive the repair cost through the roof.
![Hunxho - Ball Forever [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nki9ZTF9Uls/mqdefault.jpg)
I understand Snady's joy over snap fits for production, but as an end consumer these things are a G-D disaster making a modern car more difficult to work on. Most snap fittings cannot be removed without damaging them. Not to mention environmental deterioration making them brittle. And while repairs may be rare for most people, They do some times occur. I've got a 2014 Tundra that has had rear bumper applique fittings fail as well as front metal grill fascia snap fittings starting to fail. There is no way to repair these built in failing snap fittings.
I agree completely, old brittle plastic snap fitting parts are just the worst to work on
Couldn't agree more. I LOVE bolts. A trusty socket set and you can work on almost any part of an old car. Meanwhile I have broken multiple panel clips on newer cars. I wish there was a middle ground.
Sandy’s opinions are biased toward the ease of and decreased cost of manufacturing because that’s what his firm sells.
I keep wondering how you can do any kind of collision repair on these cars before totaling them. Sure, a few pounds of bolts hurt the advertised specs, but I probably carry more weight with the junk in my glove box.
The solution to the issue could be to include bags of extra snap fittings with the vehicles. They're mainly a PITA when they break and you have to find replacements right then.
9:15 Sandy.. it is VERY design complex and expensive to "simply turn that connector" on that module box. Because it is a sealed connector / box, getting a right angle connector in there is NO picnic. I've been designing this stuff for vehicles for decades.. .. a cheaper solution would be to mount the box without a bracket as you showed... but NOT turn the connector on the box, instead use a different connector system that has a LOWER Profile so it fits in the space there.
You can see that Ben is starting to get a bit more comfortable in front of the camera. It's cool to see him come into his own so that it's not just the Sandy show. (though I do enjoy Sandy's straightforward delivery and straight talking).
Yah Boy... Set up Ben with a pair of Spanx and a Manssiere, then he will be looking lean and mean and talking keen
The condo plug at the end -- gotta love Sandy, he doesn't beat around the bush.
As long as it's offered with the right price bracket, Sandy'll be happy.
If it were a little further north... 😁
Full disclosure: I am not a car manufacture engineer or what so ever but I am an engineer in IT and I have a construction exp.
Few moments:
10:40 - This stamped part separated for a simple reason - it will be a problem to have a robotics automated welding with that sticking part. So they just took a shortcut and put it after the welding.
10:06 - that plastic part with an angle. The trade-off they have here is simple: they decided to go with an external complexity with a simple internal board design. The L-shaped connector is the simplest way to mount any connector to the board. To mount a connector that aligned directionally with a board is more complex. So tradeoff made right - always go for the complexity with a bigger part if the other parameters are about the same.
My interpretation of that shelf was also possibly an NVH reduction on the PCB. All the hard bumps the car experiences with that PCB attached to the frame might loosen board components. I'm no EE though, just a guess unless there are feet/isolaters inside that box.
I love the disassembly montages. The production quality of these videos just keeps increasing! Also having Ben go through the disassembly process with Sandy giving supplementary info, insights, and anecdotes is so great
I imagine that the box in the fender is probably on off-the-shelf item for Ford so they made the mounting bracket. Or maybe it needed some vibration isolation so it couldn't be mounted directly to the metal? The nylon bracket would have some vibration reduction. Or perhaps there is a directional sensor of some sorts in that box that needs to be oriented in a specific way.
Love the quality of the videos lately. Good job Munro Team!
Thanks Eric!
Terrific educational videos😊! I
@@MunroLive the intro music 🤤 and Munro Live is just oozing valuable content these days!
LoL. The folks at the beginning look like office workers who got bored on their lunchbreak and decided to prank their coworker by taking their car apart :D
The Mustang Mach E Premium long range battery was delivered to me three months ago. It is one of the best vehicles I've every owned. I can get up to 270 miles traveling at speeds between 70-85. After traveling that distance, the level 3 chargers will charge up to 80 percent within 20 minutes or so. The ride, handling and noise reduction are outstanding. It handles similar to a sports car when in "unbridled." There is a learning curve, but it is well worth it. Ford has done an outstanding job for their first EV!
I bought the Mach-e a few weeks ago. These teardowns are absolutely amazing, valuable, and obviously educational. Thank you Munro
Congratulations !
you break one of those snap fits and you have to replace the whole component. This is what is destroying insurance premiums. Good for the OEM's bad for the consumers in upkeep costs which result in higher premiums
Not a problem if they use replaceable snap fits.
@@AB-yt4hd you mean those metal insert ones? those tend to break the plastic after a few uses. Might as well use some adhesive or velcro.
As someone who is fascinated with vehicle crash testing, this video is absolutely wonderful. Great stuff! I love this channel so much.
Thanks Cody
Near the end talking about nesting plate, where I work we call the waste "drop". Sometimes if it is significant enough to use later, said remnants go back into stock for future use. If too small or bad geometry then it goes in the recycle bin. It's fun to hear this talked about on the car manufacturing side, it's always a balance of working with stock sizes and optimizing for sheet usage that also makes for the least amount of weld. Sometimes it is preferred to make welds where we can use coil sheets vs standard 96" or 120" wide sheets. Cost/lb plays into usage since coil is cheaper. In the case of these car parts, they're mostly small and you have the freedom to work with whatever size sheet your heart desires. Typically thinner gauges only come in 48" or 60" wide sheets though. We typically work with 3/16" to 2" thick plate so we can be picky on what width/lengths we require from the mill to minimize splices etc where a standard length won't work.
This is fascinating!
Sandy talking about nesting and waste reminded me of something I did 40 hears ago. Was sitting in a bar with a friend and for some reason, probably beer-related, we started unfolding a cigarette pack from a well known brand that came in a red and white pack. Anyhoo, we messed with it and made a prototype to test our idea. With a small and insignificant change to the design and folding, and careful nesting we saved 20% material. Sent our idea to the manufacturer……and never heard a thing. Kept expecting to one day see our idea implemented, but I gave up smoking not long after :)
I'm guessing that they use a single fender attachment piece to guarantee proper spacing for the side fender clips. That piece probably goes through tolerancing that the main BIW doesn't. If they remove that center beam and replace it with two pieces then that spacing could be problematic.
I like the fender brackets. They are a bit adjustable also. If it was part of the upper apron assy insurance would write full refinish time on aprons something like 1.8 vs .3 for a bracket. And customers who always bump the RT or LT corner of car pulling out...and it’s a lot would have to only purchase a $20.00 part. Most of these brackets can be bent back with your little pinkie but some are overbuilt stamping that should be rethought.
Based on precision requirements for mounting body pieces, you would want the mounts to be very precise. As Sandy mentioned with Castings, you could remove parts and still maintain precision by also eliminating the welds. So, it CAN be done.
I'm guessing, the reason for the oddly mounted ECU in the fender was re-use of an existing part, which packaged differently on a different vehicle.
Brand new platform. Ford is crap.
@@johnnicol8598
Still use standard parts.
A unique car is too expensive.
@@johnnicol8598 A new platform does not mean all new parts. To save money, you might re-purpose existing designs rather than pay for tooling up all new parts.
@@mfridmanyt Granted. And I agree. However this is there first real endevour in to the all battery market. Honestly looks pretty weak to me. Some of it is all new and point on. A lot is just God awful though. This is not a low end vehicle, nor priced that way.
"Are we done?" "We are done for today". Guys, I hope you're never done! Thanks, Sandy!
10:20 do you think this bolted on to make collision repairs easier? If all of the fender attachment points are welded or stamped as part of BIW, it seems like repairs would be hugely complex and expensive with a lot of cutting, welding and fabrication.
The car is not meant to be repaired, in a perfect world there would be no crashes.
I initially thought the same thing, but then I realised that the mounting pieces that those brackets are bolted to are welded to the BIW, and there’s no reason to expect that in an accident only the bolted-on piece would deform and the welded bits would survive intact. So there’s no real difference in terms of repairability.
Came here to say this, larger SORB spaces allow for more temporary damage repair areas.
Most light accidents affect fenders and/or quarter panels.
Everything should be meant to be repaired.
If we treated people like these new cars, we'd just toss em' in a dump after they turn 40.
"Green" cars should be maintainable so that they don't fill up landfills like E-waste already does.
The probability of that kind of collision needs to be multiplied by the cost savings to understand whether that is actually a smart idea or not. You also need to consider the time value of money (and interest rates) from an accounting standpoint. Otherwise, a consumer would rather just put the savings in their pocket and get charged a negligible amount more to insurance company, which can then also invest that money into bonds to reduce costs further.
@9:40 even simpler: snap-mount the connector into the chassis (there's a big hole where the cable comes through) and just plug the electronics box into it. That way the connector itself will function as a mount.
Sandy's "Anti-threaded Fastener Crusade" carries on - ha!
the mounting bracket is probably there to move the electrical connector and potential leak areas away from a surface and vertical orientation where moisture will run over it, into the upside down orientation held away from cold metal and/or wet wheel spray.
I know what you're doing with these Mach-E teardowns, you're getting more and more manufacturer engineers subscribing to this channel.
Imagine if absolutely no cars worse than this were ever made.
The problem I have experienced with these snaps is that with time they get brittle and they break taking them apart. I still like the old fashion screw and nut plates much better.
9:50 You may be seeing a side effect of rapid development... they may not have known the dimensions of the module by the time the chassis accessories were ready for testing, so they designed a bracket so all that needs to be known for the people doing that module packaging is that there's a mounting method and a given amount of space available.
I'll bet during the next refresh that bracket does go away and the module is mounted in a manner that reduces material cost, since now they have the module and can work backwards from that.
I see a lot of thinkin’ for the manufacturer, not for the unfortunate mechanic
I mean as long as you're careful and the plastic doesn't break it's cool.
Plastic never breaks right?
Yep, mechanics love easily accessible threaded fasteners and loctite!
And also not for the customer. If the clips on the headlight breaks you need new headlights.
@@winkekeks most headlights are trashed if they are hit any harder than a 6 yr old can hit. most Bolt on through plastic tabs.
All I see is cheap plastic.
Learning how a car is designed, fabricated and assembled and why is very interesting. Well done and thank you.
Snap clips are great... until they aren’t. Nothing like having one of those pieces of junk stick.
See how many of those snap clips are still intact after 10 years or less in warm climates.
@@Conservator. None. The only benefit is sleeker design and cost saving. The stock will love you, the costumer and the workshop hate you. So the decision is clear.
@@Conservator. I don't think ppl will use this for more than 10yr
Well, it's also depending on advancement on BEV within that 10yr tho
@@febrianadji5758 There are 8 year old Tesla’s being sold here in The Netherlands for over €30,000. The average age of cars is 13 years here. Yes, BEV’s produced today will still be around in 10 years time.
I have a 2007 Fiat with similar ideas on the front bumper panels. They are all fine, but broken clips on black trims would get refitted with acrylic sealant.
If you are Ford employee watching this please 👍 Not as joke. It is actually sign of respect being able to watch someone critical of your work and thinking whether it is worth taking into practice...
I really like the 'tag team' format with Sandy and Ben - another fantastic video - thanks Team Munro
Thanks Simon
The stamped wing fasteners are for alternative designs, or done because final skin design wasn’t complete
Or for damage repair costs. Insurance companies have quite a big input on design nowadays as cheap insurance equals more fleet sales equals more profit.
If you bump the fender and bend the mount, the bolt on bit is much cheaper to repair than anything that requires welding.
Taurus sheet metal will be next.
The platform (that electronic box is situated) on page 8:03 is intended to distant the spill over water (of spinning front tire) from bordering the electronics. So the box and connector need not be splash proof.
Depending on what that electronics box is, it may have to be oriented with the board horizontal. If it contains an IMU or compass or multi-axis accelerometer or something else that measures movement, orientation matters - they will often be more accurate when measuring around one axis than another. The right angle bracket may have been the cheapest solution for aligning with the car, especially given the other options are 'a chip that's more accurate in other axes' and 'dumb PCB tricks' like putting the chip in question on a sub-board with some kind of interconnect.
I agree with V R. Once the plastic cracks or yellow or pits to the point of a home diy person wanting to replace the headlights it looks like a bigger chore.
Assembled in Mexico, disassembled in the U.S.
Munro Live now with 100% genuine RUclips unboxing soundtrack
Thank you Monroe et all for continuing to point out OEMS lost opportunities for usable/convenient storage/stowing. Usable storage is more critical w/smaller cars (ID4), I had an 01 Echo w/tons of storage/stowage. Our slightly large 02 Civic design engineers missed nearly every opportunity to incorporate an inkling "usable/convenient stowage/storage.
I learn something every time I watch your videos. Thank you so much for introducing me to efficiency and cost reduction in mass manufacturing.
Stepping up the editing, much appreciated 😊
Love the detailed look-see. What you might be missing when you ask why component X was not incorporated into component Y is the concept of “Commonality of parts”. You are looking at this car and only this car. FORD makes a whole bunch of cars. So, for example, that control box bracket in the fender well might have been used on another car. Also, the right-angle connector might fit more elegantly in other FORD cars and just a bit more awkwardly on this particular car. You have to look at car design programmatically, which is understandably difficult for you to do since you are scrutinizing just one vehicle in their lineup.
Ford looking like a contender among the OEMs in the how not to suck rankings.
Ford is killing it.
I'll believe it if I see them produce something in more than compliance quantities.
The Mach-E has sold 10,500 units as of end of May. They are experiencing demand issues. EV buyers are not looking solely for a electric drive train, they want the latest technology. This is what VW and the other legacy autos are learning the hard way.
@@harrychu650 They’re flying off the lots in Quebec, I’ve been trying to get my hands on one for weeks
@@CoreyWoodcox The sales numbers for VW ID4, ID3, Mach-e are in decline. Those are the facts. They are following the trajectory of the Audi eTron. And I imagine you are thinking what is a e-Tron.
Those brackets are bolted on later in the process because the stamped sheet metal has to be able to be stacked for transport. It won't stack with extra brackets hanging off of it.
If I owned an E-Mustang and was inclined to want to work on or repair it, I would love to be able to buy from Munro a set of videos on how they dissect this car....it would be way better than a shop manual.
Tearing things apart is easy, getting the torque values however is the part you pay for. Luckily with the internet, someone usually beats you to the replacement and they share their knowledge. Welcome to the information age.
@@mhamma6560 Good point….if Sandy had his way there would be zero fasteners in the entire car…all snap fits and 3M panel bonded.
You are so right. They are building these cars so that people can fix them on their own
@@jimcmf2 Don’t say that in front of a Ford dealership’s service department. ;-)
@@gwarlow I think that they overcharge at a dealership. I do any car repairs myself. I don't mind paying fair prices, buy prices through the roof are unacceptable.
Around 10:20… this looks like it's good for easier replacement of a dented/disfigured quarter panel and bent bracket... People do fender benders all the time...
Wow - Ford really impressed me with this design.
the hood molding is on that bracket which partially holds the hood's weight
Efficiency on all levels. And it makes it easier for aftermarket parts. Pandemic design
I see those front fins opening and closing not working worth a shit in the winter time in an snow/Ice storm 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Great analysis! But this question: Why do you keep calling it “the body in white?” Isn’t that a holdover from when a body could be pulled from the assembly line with “white primer” but in an incomplete state? It seems like this could /should be referred to as “the body” or the car.
It’s so interesting to see the structure behind some “little” tests.
For the SORB impact a longitudinal tube in the doors helps to not open the doors. VW Group uses it
The SORB test was the test the Tesla Model S 2012 and 2017 (revised structure) got a yellow (average) rating from IIHS. Many were hoping for a revised Model S for the recent refresh, but Tesla didn't indicate whether any changes were made. If you look on the IIHS website, you'll see that most compact cars score better in this test than Tesla. Munroe Live, can you comment?
Overall Ford’s done a nice job on this car. Build is very good (with room for improvements) and real world range is up there with the best. Maybe Ford can take some of Munro and Assoc. recommendations and make the next MachE even lighter and more efficient. Great job for your first real competitive EV Ford.
"We done?" - This is productive communication!
They should take a look at the older Volvo C30 / S40 / V50 headlights (when Ford owned Volvo)
1 electrical plug
1 mechanical pin
I am no engineer, but the way they approach analysis is a great thinking exercise.
i would bet that some of the parts they are talking about optimizing are existing parts from the part bin and not newly designed for Mach-E. This of course shortens the time to develop and qualify the part for its use in the vehicle and spread the cost across multiple vehicles
It might be me imagining things, but I'm happy to see Ben being more comfortable in front of the camera!
@Pauline Weinberger He is, indeed!
TIL the term “body in white” which basically means the frame before most of the other bits have been added.
wondered about "body in white". thanks
My model Y shut off on me twice on the freeway with no warning and getting it fixed was an exercise in frustration and anger management. When it was eventually fixed I traded it for a Mach E and im really enjoying it so far.
Let us know if the coolant leaks out.
Had a similar experience today with my Skoda Enyaq. Sadly Tesla can still not deliver Model Y oder Cybertruck in Europe.
@@Roman-ur4dt 9500 miles in and hasnt been back to the dealership for more than the complimentary tire rotation and car wash
@@mattbrew11 that's good to hear. Similar to my Model Y experience only I didn't need to go to the service at all. It came to me.
@@mattbrew11 you let the dealer wash your car. That shows a lot about you
As someone who's had to replace headlights for people after a deer hit or a fender bender, having the headlights actually mount to the bumper like that sends alarm bells ringing in my head. Not only does it mean that you HAVE to replace a damaged bumper now, but it also makes it critical to have the bumper mounting points exactly in place or the headlights will be pointing off worse than that guy from scary movie 2 after you take his glasses off.
One more thing we in the auto service industry are so overlooked in this one area. We sell cars. That’s right our customers always ask what car to buy next. And if you got the work van with the welded hinges on and the kit from oem to swap out said hinges are overpriced. and come with pre tapped backing plates special hardware and drill times of 1.5 hrs plus refinish two stage and small bead of seam sealer. Asks me what to buy next...it’s not that one trust me. Oh shhhh we also sell insurance. Wink wink.
Imagine if all cars were autonomous, and never crashed. We would shave off huge amounts of weight.
Single use cars. Undercarriage with battery electronics etc. Body with seating and a canvas for weather protection. I guess battery weight + 200kg for the rest. Yes!
Then there would be no need for car insurance....oh boy....what will those guys do then???
@@MolloRelax Sell fire insurances?
the tech will never get there unfortunately.
@@korgied Absolutely. And man will never fly either.
Imagine how efficient the kitchen is in Sandy’s Condo….
Lol
Kitchens have way too many fasteners and who in the right mind thought plywood would be a good idea arount water??
We need an injection molded standard cabinet that can be custom fitted to the sadly random kitchen spaces.
Also kitchens are way overpriced for the materials used.
just a microwave
Snap-on for the headlights, that''ll make for expensive gentle bumps...
Possibly similar issue for fender bolt-on bracket, maybe a way to avoid touching the body in white for gentle side swipes.
The wide-body kit will need different brackets for the fenders. Also using different brackets bolted to the same crash rails... 2023 Ford Taurus, Ford Explorer, Ford Et Cetera
While powertrain tech is important, we buy cars for the stuff we can see - interior and exterior - and performance. Taking cost out of the body and improving performance at same time will always have a place in vehicle design.
That under-fender bracket screams of module re-use. Use a bracket to make an existing module work.
Those extra brackets looks like last minute redesign decisions for styling.
The top fender mounts are for fender rigidity don’t you think.
As manufacturers design their vehicles very specifically to past specific tests like the small overlap one I wonder how well that actually translates to better survivability in the real world. I suppose it will help but I also feel that making a design that is optimized for one very specific amount of overlap would cause compromise in other amounts of overlap. Would almost be better if the testing was done at a random point that the manufacturer wouldn't know within a range to force them to build more to safety in real world crash scenarios rather than building just to pass a very specific test. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about though I'm certainly no expert.
9:30 Sandy, I am confident the purpose of that $2 shelf is likely more serious rock-chip protection of expensive electric component, from tire, in case that inner-fender became damaged/missing (a common situation).
I think his comment still holds; you could make do with a smaller shield piece of you mounted the box sideways as he demonstrated.
@@raddaks2039 my opinion, fine example to learn from on the next fresh design for ford, but I think a perfect example of us being fools wasting our time postulating the how what why, when we don't have any inside knowledge and Ford could have spent millions on multiple teams trying to attack the same problem without inter-communication between teams, and pushing the corporate envelope / yearly narrative.. deadlines must be met, and $2 shelves exist. It's BS and there is deeper technology being suppressed, for the mainstream narrative. IMO important we don't lie to ourselves and consider at least, if we want to get anywhere.
It sure looks like that electronics box bracket is a design-for-repair consideration. If it were bolted directly to the metal work, it'd require a right-angle driver and much more fiddly hand work to install, along with probably a slightly larger footprint to have top-edge fasteners still accessible from the bottom reaching up behind the fender. Perhaps they intend to eliminate it in the future if the longevity of that module proves sufficient - maybe those electronics don't have a lot of miles on them yet for that confidence.
I disagree with the idea that threaded fasteners are bad. Plastic snap-fasteners will get brittle with time & temperature extremes, and they will tend to break rather than yield and come loose. Later repairs will get a lot more complicated with snap fasteners, and more expensive because more parts have to be replaced.
different engineering for repairs than for production. Sandy worries about production cost.
Everything is a trade-off. Where is your priority for cost savings? Also, which repair scenarios should be easy? Which ones are infrequent or imply the car is totaled? You look at everything and seek to minimize TCO, total cost of ownership.
Sandy does not care about repairability. He has said so on previous videos numerous times. He only cares about initial production costs. "Hey boys and girls, let's make a car that will terrible for you in a few years."
I'm with you. 5-yro snaps are terrible to work with. The worst is that its often the retainer on the part that breaks instead of the disposable clip! It's so much nicer to unscrew a bolt. It seems to me that a repairable car will retain value in the used market.
@@AndyZach Parts, like lights, that don't last out the power train?
I’m a very long time crash fan. i study all the details closely. good job on the “sorb” and strategizing and prioritizing energy management. i wonder if ford is using 1500 mpa steel for its lower sections around the toe pan, rocker panel, and a pillar? not that it’s necessary. but fun to know
Hi Sandy will you be tracking the improvements ford makes over the next few months testing the ability of ford to make running changes.
bolted on fender mounts make sense for adjustment.
best condo salesman in the u.s.
I am guessing that the small controller may have multiple applications.
AWESOME BREAKDOWN.
I was Absorbed by this video. 🤣
btw props to Volvo whose S80 from 2007 as the oldest model that passed this test as well as the 2013 Accord with its ACE body structure. The Infiniti G37 sedan from 08ish also did reasonably well. everyone else failed miserably.
As for side impact, the industry is about to get shaken up by the IIHS side impact 2.0… stay tuned. newsflash: the current Camry will be a super star. the accord acceptable. The VW Atlas also superb, having the strongest body ever tested.
Sandy selling a condo at the end.. nice!
That center section of the fascia where the grille should be looks like a child's coffin....you can't un-see it.
Great video, anybody else notice at about 1 minute and 10 seconds there is a slice across the top of the radiator or condenser whatever it is. Goes diagonally from top right to bottom left it's possible it's supposed to be there I don't know why though it definitely looks like something cut through the top of it. Perhaps something happened while they were disassembling the vehicle
Once again FORD are thinking of making work for their dealers so that the customer would be forced at some point to bring the vehicle to be serviced at the dealer's servicing dept. BRAVO FORD you say Sandy, to which I say you are correct in assessing that the parts are there to make work for another dept.
Yeah, that plate is going to absorb the shock but it's another element to gather mud, salt and schmoot to make the car rust as fast as possible. Great planned obsolescence idea !
Built to self-destruct !
Continue on Munro! Love these series!
The chips inside the module mounted directly on the body would probably fail due to excessive vibrations over the years. Having it on the platform reduces vibrations. Comon Sandy, you can do better.
What’s the purpose of that side electronics box? Maybe there’s sensors that require a certain orientation?
Or vibration resistance. I'd imagine directly attaching to the frame would have more vibration
I've been looking around maybe this is the right channel to ask this question when a car manufacturer completes a car and it's parked how long can it be stored like that until it's considered damaged goods I'm assuming the first failures are going to be like gasket, seals and chemicals in the motor, chemicals throughout the car take your pick but how long are they stored or parked until they're considered damaged goods
Snaps give a lower score for insurance during accidents. So higher risk of getting a car scrapped out after an accident. It can be as little as a body seal and 12 snaps on a BEV to have insurance just scrap the car.
It looks like Sandy put his condo for sale to buy the Tesla Plaid. Respect!
Huh? You have to be kidding?
They raised the money to buy the Plaid via donations, selling merchandise.
@@mamadouaziza2536 plaid = 125k
Teardown =750k
Donations so far: 80k
Do the math bro
@@John_Doe742
Ok. I forgot about the actual cost of the tear down.
@@mamadouaziza2536
It looks like they are meeting their goal to buy the Tesla. As fast as they are raising money, he'll spend non of his money to buy the Tesla plaid.
@@Frank71
Ok
Snap connections are good and all... for the first 5 years. After that your not just replacing your bumper but both headlights along with it $$$$$
1. Don’t see the point in saving a few grams on a Ford considering the supersized Americans that drive them. 2. The criticism should be around why the electronics box is not installed in an easily accessible place, like under the bonnet. Ah that’s right there was no space because someone wants to put his handbag into a frunk.
What would be really interesting, and probably impossible for it to happen, is having the engineer at Ford explain why they choose to design the section Sandy wants to change the way they did. Why did they design the module so that the connector snaps in at 90 degrees rather than straight in at 180? It would be insightful to understand the thought process that lead to that decision. Without that knowledge suggestions regarding making changes are guesswork.
I'm sure there are plenty of WIWAF's lurking in the comments section to fulfill that need! (WIWAF = When I Worked At Ford)
I had to look this up: Body in white is the stage in automobile manufacturing in which a car body's frame has been joined together, that is before painting and before the motor, chassis sub-assemblies, or trim have been integrated into the structure.
Arent those fender brackets made separate for design refreshes?
That control box at 9:30 is likely to be another parts bin special. Ford purchasing won't source anything more suitable so the body engineers have to make a bracket. BUT - why is the control box not inside the front trunk area clipped to the scuttle??
_'SNAP SNAP SNAP'_
_Life's a 'SNAP'!_
I can’t help but wonder if those brackets coming out from the fender to hold it on aren’t a separate piece to accommodate repairs should a small fender bender occur. It seems to me that integrating a lot of that into the major structural portions of the car would drive the repair cost through the roof.