I have an ID.4. Looking at my own panel, I kind of agree that it doesn't seem that it adds that much interior room and there should have been space for a frunk. But watching you and Ben struggling to get into the Mach-E, which has NO DOORS compared to the ease with which you both entered the fully assembled ID.4 cockpit kind of kills your argument. In your own words "OK it's a lot tighter in this cabin than we saw in the ID.4" As someone who has owned VWs for a long time and shudders at the thought of replacing an HVAC unit that's housed in the dash, I would happily trade a frunk for ease of repair/replacement of that part. I bet it's not an 8 hour job on the ID.4 to replace a blower motor.
@@StormyDog Everything fails eventually. I'm talking 10+ years into ownership. And yes, some of us keep cars long enough that owner repairability is a factor.
Mr Munro, there is a reason for that space in the ID.4, that reason is called HUD. European cars can fit a Head Up Display, a quite large one, that can project images and indications on the windscreen. That option is not available for the US version due to US regulations. VW moved the HVAC to the front so they can fit the HUD projector, and they need to be able to do so for left and right hand drive cars, that means that they need to leave a lot of room in both sides of the car's instrument cluster. You may have expertise, but you didn't do enough research. As many have told you a lot of VW's design decisions are due to having a shared platform for multiple cars that can fit multiple optionals, some of those optionals are not available in the US but VW has to make room in the platform for said optionals. Trying to understand design decisions without doing research regarding other markets and the differences between cars for those markets will led you to erroneous conclusions.
@@gt5228z Cars are not designed for North America. This is not the 80's. Don't forget these EV's from Tesla, Ford and VW are intended for the global market.
@@gt5228z You dont design a car for a single market unless you are only releasing it in that market. The ID.4 is based on the MEB platform, that is designed for many cars across several brands and will be used in many markets. Making a specific design for the US market would be too expensive as it would require many redesigns, extra employee training, extra parts that would increase costs... in the end VW has decided to save as much cost as possible by making a design that can be used in many markets without large redesigns. It may not be as optimal as it could have been for any specific market, but it will be cost effective and that will allow VW and other brands to sell cars based on the MEB without having high costs or having to do huge redesigns. That saves money and will reduce the price of the car. Regarding the HUD, you must remember that a HUD is a projector, and a large one, as it needs be visible during bright daylight, that kind of projector is quite bulky, even modern ones.
@@AccoUnt-cs2ee why not make a bulkier IP for foreign markets then? See what I'm getting at??? The German engineers choose a route that's easier for them but bad for customer. Real engineering would be good for any market. Engineers have to get creative to come up with solutions for the customer and OEM. BTW see the link, this is a BMW HUD projector. It takes up almost NO space. www.ebay.com/itm/303614652380?epid=879840406&hash=item46b0d7efdc:g:TZkAAOSwpeBfATRR
Good point about the HUD - explains the apparent "wasted space" underneath the dash. That said, personally, I don't think the HUD adds enough value for what it delivers. Consider you already have the driver's display and the HUD mirrors much of the same data. Many people with the HUD say they could easily live without it but perhaps VAG has future plans for the HUD that we're not aware of.
The ID.4 might be the only easily repairable and reliable VW made in the last 15 years. When the AC cabin fan dies, you no longer need to disassemble the dash to repair it. In a world where most modern VW engines have PLASTIC OIL PANS(!!!!) let's commend them for designing their BEVs with longevity in mind.
Hi I’m a Volkswagen technician in a independent shop and I for one like the way Volkswagen engineered the ID4 especially the HVAC unit. Not long ago I had to replace 2 temperature flap motor on MK7 Golf and I assure you that after replacing them I had a sore body for a couple days If I could’ve replaced the under the hood in a more convenient place I would choose the ID4 design. Let say the A/C evaporators needs replacement on the Mach E how many hours compared to the VW and this repair done under warranty is going to save the manufacturer a lot of money and the customer in the long run.
Replacing a temp motor flap in a ID 4,open bonnet,remove 3 bolts:10 $,replacing a temp flap motor in a mach-e:,remove dash panel to remove 3 bolt 500 $.I hate when engineers squeeze a part and when you have to replace it,you have to dissmantle the entire car for a 2$ part
Engineers do that. You have to drop engines, and tear though a whole car for a 50 dollar part. Sandy wonders why the average age of America car is 12 years old and a full 25%, of the cars out there are over 15 years old.
I won't pretend to be an engineer (am a software engineer, but let's not open that can of worms), nor a mechanic. Worked on many vehicles because I like to DIY and have noticed them getting more difficult to work on. Likely because of what Sandy said about being better for the customer not the engineers. My only question with that line of thinking is does it make maintenance more expensive when it's jammed into every nook and cranny and difficult to get to vs just under the hood where you can look at it? If a doo-dad under the dash of the Mustang needs to be serviced, it may take 3 hours to get to, vs. maybe 30 minutes in the VW? I genuinely don't know and could be way off. When I build stuff (again, not an engineer), I always consider maintenance, mostly because I have to maintain whatever thing I hacked together.
With all due respect, many engineers and companies have a complete disregard for the problems created when cramming many components in such a way that servicing afterwards becomes a nightmare. I would assume that good design also evaluates ease to service a vehicle which affects the cost of servicing the vehicle during its entire service life.
Why in the world would they do that? It isn't like this is some sort of platform that dozens of models and millions of cars will be built on. ...Oh wait!
Unfortunately serviceability isn't what customers come to dealerships for. The average new car buyer couldn't give two s**ts about the travails of service technicians, and EVs generally have fewer mechanical components to fail. What they do care about is a frunk.
My grandfather once told me about one of his jobs driving bare bus chassis 100 miles from where they were built to the factory where the body was put on; he used a shipping crate perched on the frame as a seat. He drove tanks during WW2 so all things considered the bus chassis was probably a less dangerous occupation.
One thing Sandy is missing from his analysis is this is the MEB platform. The Mach-E is purpose-built. For the MEB platform the body and interior can change, so putting a bunch of stuff in the dash would have limited the variations of the interior. With the components in the front, a new body can be put on top.
@@t39868 Yes, that's likely the case. They opted for a shorter wheelbase and even shorter front end which offers very good cabin and luggage space, and a very good turning circle as many reviewers have noted. Not to mention, low price.
It does honestly seem weird that Sandy is failing to take into account serviceability. The “frunk” space being given over to a dedicated service bay seems like a far more sustainable and maintenance friendly solution rather than the relatively small increase in storage volume. Not having to rip out interior trim to chance a filter seems like better engineering.
He is a manufacturing engineer. Once it's out the factory and the customer is satisfied during the test drive and buys it...it's not his problem anymore. In my opinion he sometimes has a very limited view on things. One additional concern is noise. Anything under the IP (blower, ac, etc.) is emitting noise into the cabin, while for VW it's behind the firewall and dampened. Also cost. Just bolting stuff into the engine bay is cheap and fast. Maybe not good, but somehow VW has to bring the cost down. Also they both didn't even measure the distance to the front of the vehicle from the ip, giving a better measurement of total space available (or wasted).
@@Findalfen well, given that the HVAC system in an EV is the same as an ICE vehicle, the same? The filter alone needs replacing every 10k, and the fluids in there probably every few thousands miles. I’d much rather have a servicing bay that gives me easy access to these systems when I need it, than having a super special ice bucket for my 12 pack of crap American lager….
@@streddaz Or if at the very least, VW would sell you schematics, diagnostic tools, and replacement parts in a reasonable time schedule. I waited 2 months for a new windshield because, according to the dealership, all product was going towards their production line.
@@alexp9303 VW does sell all that, go to er.win an buy them, all there guides, schematics, part lists, service instructions... And that has been the case since the late 90s.
@@DooMMasteR Like I said, reasonable schedule. The car in question had less than 500 miles on it when the rearview mirror mount had fallen off. VW dealership said since it was a 2021 model, they did not have the part in stock, or at any local distributor. On a side note, do they provide any diagnostic tools on their Car-Net modules? That also has never worked for me since taking the car, and the dealership claims nothing is wrong with the hardware. So how would you go about fixing this? Also, what happens after the first 5 years and the Car-Net is disabled? Can I swap out the SIM, and host my own server endpoint for the car to communicate with?
I have new cars and old cars. In new cars I do not care that much, but with the old ones (which I much maintain myself) I care a lot. And I hate engineering where many things are combined big units which are hard to repair, but are probably cheaper to manufacture. And if we think sustainability, things (including EVs) should be maintainable. One big reason to go to EVs is sustainability -> it should also mean EVs should be easy to maintain and repair and recycle.
Id 4 is 8-15 inches shorter than model y and mach E, but offers same interior and more usable trunk space than both. Tesla doesnt offer a HUD for the very reason there is no space available in the dashboard.
The HUD argument holds no water. Below is a link to a peugeot HUD projector, pretty small huh? Peugeot is not imported to north america. Even if this argument makes sense, to that I would just say that they would be smarter to just have a smaller IP for n American market. www.amazon.com/dp/B086RFZBWB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_V4RT00JSJR431BF1GT3K
Tesla didnt decline to put a HUD for lack of space. There is plenty of room to add a HUD. They skipped it because it doesnt match their design ethos for human interaction in this model. (Per tweets from Elon). You can argue that you dont agree with that design ethos, but it would be wrong to say its due to lack of space.
Hey Sandy you really should do this with an ID.4 with all the euro options; Heat Pump, Heads Up Display, and AWD. That probably make a difference. Maybe they could get a small tray for charging cables, but maybe not much more. While your investigating missing frunk mysteries you should look into the nee BMW i4 that thing has a mile long hood and still no frunk.
I don't want to be the Devil's Advocate but you have to choose between providing additionala storage space versus packing a lot of stuff in an unaccessible area making later maintenace access difficult and costly.
@@davidhumeston5292 I don't think many people care to be honest, not as much as a few would love to want. As many people are more used to not having that space in a car, and 99% of the time it's only a few keeping charging cable or something in that space. People won't keep something in a slave that's a hassle to open and close all the time, which is why a lot keep the cables in the back where the rear door self opens and closes. What do you think is easier? A door that opens closes or one where you have to pull a cable twice then get out and open the hood then hold it or whatever to get a cable out. Tesla doesn't have self opening or closing hoods Have to remember the id cars have been #1 in Europe for the last 8 months in the largest ev market in the world.
Components that are rated to last the lifetime of the car don't need to be service accessible... A clever engineer can have their frunk and eat it too!
Your comparison of the ID.4 vs. MachE front end space utilization was very interesting. One aspect of vehicle design that you don't dwell on very much, though, is serviceability. Can VW legitimately claim advantages in the form of easier maintenance that the "frunk potential" was spent on?
The only parts that require regular maintenance is under a plastic shroud located under the hood nearest the firewall. EV HVAC systems should very rarely need service compared to an ice vehicle.
@@gt5228z Everyone says that evs don't need any maintenance and it's just bs. There's heaps of videos on people redoing the suspension on Tesla's because it's shot after 3 years. And they don't want to pay Tesla $12,000 to replace it
@@zagan1 I'm talking specifically about what's under the IP. This stuff hardly needs maintenance with an ice vehicle let alone an EV. I say less with ev because what makes heat and ac work is more complex in an ice vehicle. Suspension and chassis parts maintenance will not differ between ice and EVs.
Sandy Munroe: why no frunk for the ID 4? Answer from the Klaus Bischoff, the head of Volkswagen desig ( it is about ID 3 but is also apply to ID 4): There is no ‘frunk’ (referring to luggage space where the engine usually is) on the ID.3 as the nose is quite short and the available space had to be used for the 12-volt battery (which runs the lights, wipers fans, etc), the cooling system and fluid reservoirs. The projector module for the Head-Up Display, which is significantly larger than in other models due to the presence of Augmented Reality takes up a lot of the front space.
I appreciate the videos, thank you. Just a thought from a former VW mechanic regarding the vw’s lack of a frunk: it seems possible that by moving components from inside the IP to under the hood; that long term service and repair costs would be lower because of better access for the technician. Is it possible that it is not a case of lazy engineering but rather different design priorities? Does good engineering require components to be difficult to access even if there is ample space for said components elsewhere? Could this design lower assembly costs? Seems like there are plenty of customer benefits besides a frunk. Honestly, I think the greatest appeal of frunks to most people is telling other people that their new car has a frunk:)! Really appreciate the work you’re doing.
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, if I'm a mechanic and I have to replace a broken component, having it in the frunk is a LOT more appealing than having to crawl under the dash (or even worse pull the dash apart) to make the repair. Maybe it's good engineering to use up as much space in the IP as possible, but doing so DOES have a negative side as well
This is what separates the good engineers from the average engineers. Engineers with better spatial comprehension design them to be easily serviced and repaired in the future while also innovating.
If anything under the IP fails on a Mach-E it would be very difficult expensive to replace. You may have to rip out the entire dash. Perhaps VW just decided to trade off serviceability against a frunk. I have had an EV for 8 years and never used the frunk, so perhaps it was not so dumb. Perhaps it was a conscious decision. Just sayin.
True for most. 'Course, I only buy used cars, so personally spend a little more time under there than others might. I'm looking forward to see how well this generation of electric cars ages.
There is three options missing from the ID.4 you are showing, That takes up much of the "wasted" space Augmented Reality Heads Up Display/AR-Hud sits under the dashboard, Heatpump sits out in the front and the front differential(in AWD version) AR-Hud and Heatpump are not options in North America
I think part of the point was focusing on the customer need, not the engineer or technician. Having said that, if the parts in question are likely to require service, ease of service will affect the customer once warranty is over in terms of cost. Personally, a decent frunk seems to be a desirable feature that can be delivered in EV's. VW not delivering one is a fail, regardless of what the arguments are about serviceability etc. Seems like it might have been a rush job in engineering by VW to recover from dieselgate and possibly a lack of funds for the engineering on this first model because of things like 30 billion dollars of fines for dieselgate.
You still don’t get it! Look at cargo and seating space, not under the dashboard where nobody occupies. The ID.4 is 5” shorter and still has more Cubic feet space than the Mach-e in including the front trunk. Sounds like good engineering!
What if VW's design considerations were ease of maintenance and cost saving instead of cramming in a frunk that could be used as a cooler for your Pabst Blue Ribbon?
Exactly. Good engineering is being able to design an innovative product while also retaining excellent serviceability and repairability, within the budget. The majority of engineers don't understand this.
Yeah, threaded fasteners appear to be his “issue”. I work in an industry that deals with strict tolerances, high pressures, and strong regulatory oversight and you won’t find many fasteners that are not threaded, especially where safety is a concern.
@@ILLEagle_1 True. And one thing that frustrates me when I go to work on a car is when plastic fasteners that have become brittle from heat and age snap off and leave me with no way to reinstall the part without replacing a bunch of plastic crap.
@@henryD9363 I get that. But in some respects, eliminating parts by creating systems that combine functions can add complexity and cost. For instance, on my Touareg, the PCV valve needed to be replaced. But that traditionally easy-to-replace $15 part (yes, I’m old) has been integrated into the valve cover (~$500) that requires removal of the intake manifold to replace! So what used to be a cheap DIY project has evolved into an expensive $1,500 trip to the shop. I wan’t happy with that experience. And apparently VW are not alone with that particular evolution. I am not opposed to smart design evolution, but don’t box stuff up in complex components and systems just to avoid threaded fasteners; which I don’t believe are nearly as unreliable as portrayed to be. I don’t ever recall going to fix something to find that it was loose fasteners that led to the failure, because I don’t recall ever finding loose threaded fasteners on things that I took apart.
I think sandy does not (want to) see the bigger picture. There are so many more Cars on the MEB platform in Europe and Sandy just sees the ID.4 as the only car (without the platform). And having a platform also benefits the Customer (parts, service and so on). It's not like Tesla where they have 4 different cars and that's it, for VW Group it will be dozens of different models. I think Sandy's opinion is important and valuable in his field, but in the end the manufacturer has to decide and consider all other requirements which have to be taken into account.
At 7:25 I agree with Sandy but when your H-Vac radiator goes out some makes of car currently you looking at 3,000 to 5,000USD bill to fix a 20 to 50USD part because all the dashboard has to come out of the car etc - when it placed in the frunk it makes the owner of the car and the mechanic that gets to employed to replace the broken part a lot happier
That's the argument most people made in the first video of Sandy's take on the ID.4 front end. Instead of covering that point, he ignored it and looked at something completely different!
I respect your experience, but it was communicated by VW well before the first ID cars left the plant, that they had a lot of space of the instrument panel allocated for the augmented reality HUD. You seem to have a vehicle without the HUD, so of course that space is empty.
@@murphyseb at 8:42 you can watch the lead architect of MEB talk about the space under the hood, explaining that it was a conscious decision to free up interior space: ruclips.net/video/eRFzmdEQ3sM/видео.html I indeed couldn't find a picture of the actual HUD-unit, but in this post someone took a picture from top down. You can see a fairly large black area in front of the steering wheel. That's the HUD. www.goingelectric.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1338994#p1338994
@@murphyseb good news: Audi has a video where there is at least a schematic of it: www.audi-technology-portal.de/de/elektrik-elektronik/fahrerassistenzsysteme/audi-q4-e-tron-ar-hud-de/ You can see the red outline from 0:22
@@ianthomasdooley859 such a great response... and a day later at that... it's you that need a life. Me i'm fine doing multiple things a day like asking when someone state something like it's the only truth without providing sources.
The measurement-strategy is strange. It would make more sense, measuring the distance between the front of the car and the steering wheel. So we can compare the length difference between the driver and the front end. For me, the „frunk delta“ seems to be more or less the lengh distance difference of the front end. The hood of the FOrd is way longer. But Sandy dont like the ID4, we are getting it.
It is shorter overall, smaller in volume and seems not to lack in passenger space... Maybe it is just a more compact car 🤔 I cannot see how he could overlook that fact.
@@DooMMasteR One thing he didn’t overlook and what’s most important. The Mustang Mach-E has better engineering behind it than the ID4. VW needs to reduce the price of the ID4. It is way too close in price to the Mach-E, yet you get a lot more car out of the Mach-E. It’s clearly the better vehicle of the two.
@@waynelewis9110 The Mach-E is a single model car, while the ID.4 is based off a common platform with the ID.3 and other VAG brand cars, which is where the savings return. Also a lot of the engineering is done because these are world cars, the ID.4 e.g. has a 3/4 way CO2 heat pump in Europe, not available in the US. There also is a HUD available here, which takes a lot of the dash space, and it is not at all available in the US. Same goes for other stuff like massage seats and such. So while the Mach-E is a single off car, the ID.x cars share most parts between them which makes it a lot less viable to place components inside of the cabin and also requires a short common hood. And short cars are a preference in most parts of the world.
Having those components easily accessed would increase the ease of repair, wouldn't it? Rather than need to remove the dash to access something it's right on show under the hood. Personally I'd trade a small storage space for making this easier to access and repair.
@@twany442 no, I didn't hear them say that. Admittedly when I watched this I had just woken up, and was in the midst of feeding pets and making coffee so I may have just missed it. If they said it that's great. The way they did it was the most logical choice while designing the vehicle. I had a model 3 as a company car for 18 months, and that thing was a nightmare. Several things broken with the screen/infotainment and fans in the dash and the entire dash had to come out each time to access literally anything. The VW looks like an entirely better vehicle to me (aside from the interior colour at least).
@@Kevin-hp5fk And thing Mach E looks like a better vehicle to me that's neither here or there though. The id4 has a shorter front end and more interior space. The Mustang Mach e has less interior space and a longer front end. At the end of the day they'll both unsnap the dashboards off of both and do what they need to do.
@@andrewcannon587 I guess it depends a bit. I heard Sandy was complaining about empty space, which I understood from other chats that it is reserved for Heat pump and HUD for example. So there is no empty space available. So it actually seems that analysis was off from the beginning.
i think there is something to be said to not have to pull apart the dash to change the in cabin air filter. The frunk on the Mach e is cool for sure, but im not putting beers in it all the time.
Lots of cars put the cabin filter in the back of the glovebox; just because Tesla put it in an super inconvenient location doesn't mean everyone has to.
The ID4 still could have had a frunk. They simply just designed for it to not have one. I mean dude, he literally showed that they had a bunch of wasted, empty space under the passenger side of the dash. They could have made space for a frunk, but they didn’t. There is no excuse for VW here.
@@CoxJul That is not important. The ID4 and Model Y have roughly the same size hood area, yet the Model Y has a frunk, but the ID4 does not. It’s not that VW couldn’t include a frunk. They literally made the choice not to.
How is the noise level in the cabin in the Mach-e compared to ID.4 when the HVAC is running at high speeds? I know my ID.4 is quite silent compared to my previous vehicle which had the HVAC unit in the IP.
As a consumer my request is to get rid of the dashboard completely. Ditch the "frunk" idea and pack everything from under the dash to the frunk. Makes things easily repairable, gets rid of ugly dashboards and opens up the cabin immensly.
If you do that then any touch screens or touch points (climate control, radio) would be too far away from the driver bolted to the firewall. Those items have to be brought closer to the driver, so why not use that empty space above your feet to hid those things. Unless, of course, you love the seating position in the original Beetle where your hand hits the windshield while turning.
From one old engineer to another: you are my role model. Your knowledge and skill are too valuable to waste, and engineering is too much fun give up for retirement. Go Sandy!
I strongly suspect that the VW -MEQ- MEB HVAC layout is identical across a large number of current and future models by VW and its numerous sub-brands. VW may well have done actual market research to determine customer demand for a Frunk. I don't know this to be true but I do know customers are highly motivated by pricing. Reducing tooling and assembly labor by reusing assemblies across various products can absolutely reduce the sales price of a product. I've never said you don't know engineering. I have said and still say that when you venture into areas of EV performance, customer preferences, and other areas where you are less expert it undermines your brand. EDIT: and I have to add that, as a guy who has fiddled with components under an instrument panel I am sure mechanics in the future will appreciate VW's layout, even as those same future mechanics will curse a leaking Octovalve.
And the ID4 he was is not even a top of the line model with AWD, heads up and lots of extras. It is so embarrassing that he can not get the Meb platform and how versitale it is.
@@flienky Oops! Thanks for catching my typo! Yes, Sandy does seem to get stuck on some details and just can't let them go. It has been fun to watch him turn around on Ford though. For years he has carped about how awful they were when he worked there The first Mach E video had a lot of that but he quickly evolved as he got deeper into the car.. This video and the Maverick review show him really going through some changes.
You weren't going to get an OTA Update as soon as you took the doors off. The Mach-E Manual states that the doors must be closed for updates to be performed.
Tricking the ECU with a closed sensor, there is no need for a door. But Sandy Munro is not so much into software and software features anyway. They are more into parts and hardware and their production and assembly like moldings, extrusions, stampings, fasteners, clips, rivets, glue and whatnot. So, any OTA update simply makes no difference to them.
@@MunroLive Just had an idea for a video. Tesla will install 10,000 superchargers this year. What is the cost difference between the tesla superchargers and the other charging stations with their screens and RFID readers. Maybe a teardown of the chargers with an eye on how to make them more reliable. Thanks.
it looks like then MEB platform can give more freedom for the interior designer and a faster car development time. when ford has develop mach-e, volkswagen group has develop id.3, id.4, enyaq, q4 e-tron, cupra born and all could be build in the same fab. (enyaq will be made in the skoda fab). even ford will build MEB cars it can't be that bad concept.
Designing generically seems like a great goal, but your competition is going to crush you with more custom designs. This is physical space we are talking about, not modular software. It does provide reduced development costs but as far as making a competitive end product...
Standardization has served the auto makers well. It keeps development and manufacturing costs down and provides more opportunities to review and modernize the platform. One-off designs tend to be expensive to produce and if you don’t produce sufficient volume, can lead to a longer learning curve with the tech.
Not sure how it is in the us, but the combined sale of Enyaq, id4 and Q4 is much higher than the Mach E in Europe, to me it’s looks like VW is crushing Ford.
@@gytefisk Ford's still building production. Wait. VW already isn't selling well in key areas like China. So they frankly have nothing the brag about yet. The infotainment is a complete disaster right now.
You seem a bit biased against the ID.4. I already had that impression when you compared the battery packs: while you criticized VW several times for the amount of screws you didn’t mention it once on the ford despite the number seemed equal at first glance. Here again it seems to me you overrate the value of having this front trunk. I as a costumer would rather have more storage else where. On the hood you have those double looking mechanism, that doesn’t seem very convenient compared to the back trunk with automatic opening and stuff. Having said that Volkswagen probably made a mistake there if there is some unused space in there… Still enjoy your videos, keep going! :)
From gas car point of view, i wouldn't want to have anything inside the dashboard as it's a total pain to take out and fix. A broken heater core in an older car is usually left as is because it can take 2000 bucks to replace just because of work hours needed to rip the dash out.
Now I get the point from a manufacturer consultant but fixing things behind/under the IP is a huge pain in the ass. So we have that fix stuff vs build stuff having different pressures.
It looks like Sandy still doesn’t know why VW decided to move the HVAC unit out of the way. I know he knows much about car industry but he doesn’t know everything about anything. Could VW have done it better? Maybe, but you know I don’t think a frunk was on their list when they designed the platform. Sandy should remember that the MEB is not a car but a platform where many cars share lots of parts. Nevertheless, as always very informative. BTW, Ford has long ago started designing some hybrid metal-composite structural parts for their cars, so not much to see at that hatch.
What about comparing the length from the front edge of the car to bottom edge of the windshield between id4 and the mustang? I bet the mustang is much longer and that explains why there is so much more space in its frunk.
I have 49 years under my belt as an engineer and i know my personal engineering capabilities (all aspects) just like you know yours. Don't get offended by morons who insult you by questioning your engineering skills - you know how good you are and that is all that is necessary. Your track record speaks for itself - you have better things to waste your time on than their opinions...
Good engineering is being able to design an innovative product while also retaining excellent serviceability and repairability, within the budget. The majority of engineers don't understand this. Just remember that experience doesn't help if you've been doing something suboptimally. Not an attack against Sandy but it's to challenge the notion that experience is king. Many variables.
@@andrewmeehan6151 People who buy BEVs every 3 years also bought ICE cars every 3 years. I plan to drive my Tesla around 10 years barring any accidents.
As Sandy probably knows, it isn't always the engineers who "miss" opportunities in design, but the bean counters who nix more aggressive development, or the marketers for the sake of speed to market. Engineering is always a compromise between utility vs cost. While I tend to agree with Sandy's design assessment, it might still be more a problem of current constraints placed on the VW engineers, than their lack of imagination. Anyway, the market will decide who's right better than I can.
re: "it might still be more a problem of current constraints placed on the VW engineers" exactly, lest we forget these are the same guys who built both the Bugatti VEYRON and 300MPH Bugatti CHIRON SuperSport, the ID-R (Nurburgring EV Lap Record 6:05 and Pikes Peak Overall Record 7:57, built the Porsche GT2RS/MR Nurburgring Record 6:43, and built the Lemans 919 Hybrid Nurburgring Record 5:19). unfortunately it seems a great many are either A: not paying attention...? or are B: SELECTIVELY paying attention...? ref Teslarati, neurotic/maladjusted "Techies" who are "baby young to the world" (particularly the world of Automotive R&D).
re: "It isn’t always the bean-counters’ fault." oh no it's ALWAYS the fault of bean counters. this is accepted GOSPEL across the board and across all sectors. SUCK IT CPA's...!!! IN YOUR FACE STUPID ACCOUNTANTS...!!!
@@phillyphil1513 I respectfully disagree. Having worked in the engineering field for the last 30+ years, my experience tells me that sometimes it just ain't so.
At the cost of less frontal crumple zone? No thanks. It's an EV; repairability is less important. Obviously it'll still require repair, and time will tell, but ideally it'll require less repair over time than an ICE.
I love this channel. Getting new videos from Sandy is a highlight of my week. Most of the time, I agree with him BUT I am an ID.4 owner who chose VW over Tesla. The ID.4 serves me well. The AC works great in the VA heat. And I don’t really care if I don’t have a frunk.
as an owner of an ID4 I can see with my own eyes that they could have rearranged the contents under the hood for a small frunk. With what Sandy is point out I don't see why they didn't unless it makes it easier when switching between Seat, Cubra, and Skoda.
Sandy lost me completely in his id 4 suspension video where he did claim that its mcpherson strut front suspension was cheap "like Toyota",while the model 3 suspension was premium "like BMW". The fun thing is that generations of BMWs until today have struts up front like VW and Toyota while Teslas have dual wishbones like generations of american pick up trucks.
He may have been referring to their multilink front and rear, not the struts. BMW uses multilink with struts while Toyota uses simple struts with lower control arms, if memory serves me correctly. I still think everything else is a compromise versus double wishbones.
I think that Sandy's [and Ben's] general impression of the VW ID.4 is spot on. It's a very good vehicle, but it could have been better. My own ID.3 has much the same feel. There's a lingering quality about it which suggests that VW had to get the product to market double quick. And you can imagine their thinking - "why do they need a big space at the front? The previous cars had engines in there. Next time they can have a frunk. We don't have time to completely design away from what we've done before..." And although the ID series of cars have never had ICE engines anywhere near them, VW engineers couldn't help but be influenced by tried and trusted methods. That's been my impression of my car so far. Incidentally, the space under the ID.3 bonnet is packed too. No frunk for me. EDIT: Wow, 10 months quickly go by - I mentioned before that the space under my ID.3's bonnet was packed. Actually, that's not quite true. It's packed because all the components are spaced out. There would be plenty of room for a small frunk if VW had taken the time. You can reach in between the components and wave your forearm about. But as I wrote before, I believe they rushed it. Incidentally, the Infotainment software is still poor and lagging, as of May 2022, but VW can still correct that. We're never going to get that frunk, except perhaps in a major facelift or the next model.
This is beyond ridiculous? Just because a car is electric should not automatically mean the car has a 'frunk'. Ice cars usually don't have a 'frunk', which means people have been without one for nearly 100 years. Its really a major turn off that every EV that isn't from Tesla must meet or exceed a Model 3.. These EVs from other brands are not Teslas, these other cars are unique within their own brands. There needs to be EVs for people who do not want a Tesla.
It is allways the best i hear from people when we talk about their work and why they are good at it...."Because i do this for 10/15/20/30 years...!" You made my day...
My ID.4 (in the Netherlands) has a projecting HUD in the instrument panel, yhis is basically a short-throw projector as it utilizes a large part of the windscreen to project navigation directions. Could that be the reason that the filled the "engine bay" as they needed the space for this projector? Isn't it also that the Mach-e hood is a bit longer, allowing some more space in the front?
Mr Munro- I can't believe that anyone would challenge your knowledge. I really appreciate you and your staff sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. Thanks!
When I built my FFR ‘65 Daytona Coupe, I used the instrument panel/box for ignition, Coil, fuse box, ground block and the junction point for all the wiring. HVAC is n/a but there is very little wiring exposed under the hood.
Frunk? Who cares. Nobody wants to routinely open and close the front hood ... so any storage there isn't a big deal ... unless you do like Ford did with the Lightning and make it a workspace (that seemed brilliant for a work truck IMHO). Go do a study and find out how often a frunk is actually used for grocery bags ... I think not ... because opening/closing that large hood is awkward. If everything is stuffed under the dash, isn't it harder and more expensive to service? "I can't even get my hand in!" ... my point exactly. So use the space to make maintenance easier. I can't tell you that that is VW's thinking (or if that's the best thinking), but arguing about a frunk is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I haven’t seen the « engine bay » by myself yet but... stashing electronics there is a hazard when it comes to rain, sleet, snow and frost. Here in Canada we have road salts and it gets EVERYWHERE so anything that we can get inside is a plus in the long run. Thank you Sandy for the holiday wishes, it’s good that a US citizen acknowledges this as most US citizens see us as foreigners. We’re cousins, not strangers. Happy 4th of July to all!
Granted EV's don't require the maintenance that ICE's do but the less time I spend at a dealer service center the better. The same people who whine about not having a coupl extra square feet of storage with 'tailgating accessories' will be the ones blistering Ford in the forums and comment sections for how much they had to pay for the multiple hours of service, time lost with the family, had to take a whole day off from work, etc.
@@bluetoad2668 No, but the quieter cabin because the HVAC and a lot of pumps aren't hidden under the dash, but are under the hood instead, will make you buy it. And the ID4 is quite a bit quieter and more refined than the Mach-E.
I know this is a two years old clip from Munro. The reason why VW Company and Nissan do not have a frunk is because they have chosen to put the air conditioning out in the so-called engine compartment to reduce noise in the cabin. And the noise in a Tesla and Ford Mach E is louder in the ID7, Enyag, Q4 and the Nissan Ariya. I prefer a quieter car than a frunk car, which I will never use
Interesting. Despite all that waste and despite the fact that the ID.4 is 17cm shorter and 68mm narrower, it offers 6cm more interior length than the Model Y. It really annoys me that VW was so wasteful. The ID.4 could have been around 100 kg lighter and more spacious. I'm really interested in the ID.4 II and ID.3 II.
VW insist that the model Y is in a different vehicle class than the ID4, they're right about that. Model Y is in a class of its own and it'll outsell the ID4 by about 5 to 1 at least.
@@bluetoad2668 The Model Y, which is about 10000 bucks more expensive, can't be that great either if it offers less interior space even though the ID.4 is so wasteful and much smaller. Furthermore the Model Y's ride comfort is much worse.
Maybe they wanted to make servicing more accessible? I see it costs hundreds of dollars to change air conditioner units that are hidden behind the dash, requiring a almost full tear-out. Just a thought Sandy 🙋♂️
By your logic BMW i3 has worst space design. IP is super deep compare to these two vehicles. Next time measure distance between licence plate and steering wheel. That would make much more sense.
As a tech I can say I have no complaints with what VW did, Wont have to remove the dash to replace a leaking evaporator. And will not break the bank for a customer getting out of warranty evaporated replaced.
Maybe they are engineering for the customer in terms of repairability. If everything is squashed and hidden, it's also a pain if something needs to be replaced in there.
Question is how often do the components in the IP need replacing. I've had my ICE car for 12 years and they never had to take the dash apart. Changing the cabin filter was a bit of a PITA but was doable.
I’ve worked for a few seriously good companies and brilliant and experienced engineers and designers, Sandy you don’t need to answer to anyone, you know your shit and then some!!! Bravo!!!
I the case of the frunk that's not true at all, please go see video of repair Tesla, except for body repair like all car the rest is easy, heck kids can do it (see Goonzsquad video).
I think it would have been a better design for both the ID.4 and the Mach-E to have a smaller hood similar to the Model Y to have a better Cd (Drag coefficient). But VW and Ford want to be able to add a Range extender or an Hydrogen Fuel Cell stack. The fact that the frunk cannot be open with an App of a button on the display monitor instead of an handle located only fron the driver side proove it.
Is this a joke? They "reverse engineer" a US-spec car without head-up display, without heatpump, without frontwheel motor and drive (all of which are available in Europe). And they wonder why there's so much room? Also, they compare a purpose built car such as the E Mach - which has a 6" longer hood - with the open MEB platform from VAG. Please Sandy, do your homework. This is laughably bad.
I have taken some of your advice into consideration, regarding fasteners. The team and I, are trying to work on a shore power device, and will look to add clips instead of bolts, and test it for vibrations in SolidWorks. Appreciate your contributions to the field!
I don't really get the rant. The ID4 was engineered to have more usable space than the Model Y. www.automobile-propre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/model-y-id-4-comparaison.jpg Having empty space under the dash doesn't mean there is no space in the ID4 .And to be honest as a customer I don't care if there is any unused space underneath my dashboard, I just want usable space in my car. As a mechanic it completely different and I'm very happy about some room to work with. Good luck changing the airfilter or blower in that Mach-E. Just my 2 cents.
Living in the UK it seems pretty obvious why there is nothing on the "driver side" ;). Also who wants a frunk..... happy to store all my stuff in the back
Mach-E length: 4717 mm; boot: 502 dm3 // Id4 length: 4584; boot: 543 dm3; VW id4 smaller outside; bigger inside...
You did this entire video, much better, in about 30 seconds :-) And without even going into your credentials :-)
I have an ID.4. Looking at my own panel, I kind of agree that it doesn't seem that it adds that much interior room and there should have been space for a frunk. But watching you and Ben struggling to get into the Mach-E, which has NO DOORS compared to the ease with which you both entered the fully assembled ID.4 cockpit kind of kills your argument. In your own words "OK it's a lot tighter in this cabin than we saw in the ID.4" As someone who has owned VWs for a long time and shudders at the thought of replacing an HVAC unit that's housed in the dash, I would happily trade a frunk for ease of repair/replacement of that part. I bet it's not an 8 hour job on the ID.4 to replace a blower motor.
Or you could use a quality blower motor...
@@StormyDog Everything fails eventually. I'm talking 10+ years into ownership. And yes, some of us keep cars long enough that owner repairability is a factor.
Mr Munro, there is a reason for that space in the ID.4, that reason is called HUD. European cars can fit a Head Up Display, a quite large one, that can project images and indications on the windscreen. That option is not available for the US version due to US regulations. VW moved the HVAC to the front so they can fit the HUD projector, and they need to be able to do so for left and right hand drive cars, that means that they need to leave a lot of room in both sides of the car's instrument cluster.
You may have expertise, but you didn't do enough research. As many have told you a lot of VW's design decisions are due to having a shared platform for multiple cars that can fit multiple optionals, some of those optionals are not available in the US but VW has to make room in the platform for said optionals. Trying to understand design decisions without doing research regarding other markets and the differences between cars for those markets will led you to erroneous conclusions.
It's apoorly engineered car for North America in that case. Also I fail to see why HUD needs to take up this space, it's not the late 80s.
@@gt5228z Cars are not designed for North America. This is not the 80's. Don't forget these EV's from Tesla, Ford and VW are intended for the global market.
@@gt5228z You dont design a car for a single market unless you are only releasing it in that market. The ID.4 is based on the MEB platform, that is designed for many cars across several brands and will be used in many markets.
Making a specific design for the US market would be too expensive as it would require many redesigns, extra employee training, extra parts that would increase costs... in the end VW has decided to save as much cost as possible by making a design that can be used in many markets without large redesigns. It may not be as optimal as it could have been for any specific market, but it will be cost effective and that will allow VW and other brands to sell cars based on the MEB without having high costs or having to do huge redesigns. That saves money and will reduce the price of the car.
Regarding the HUD, you must remember that a HUD is a projector, and a large one, as it needs be visible during bright daylight, that kind of projector is quite bulky, even modern ones.
@@AccoUnt-cs2ee why not make a bulkier IP for foreign markets then? See what I'm getting at??? The German engineers choose a route that's easier for them but bad for customer. Real engineering would be good for any market. Engineers have to get creative to come up with solutions for the customer and OEM.
BTW see the link, this is a BMW HUD projector. It takes up almost NO space.
www.ebay.com/itm/303614652380?epid=879840406&hash=item46b0d7efdc:g:TZkAAOSwpeBfATRR
Good point about the HUD - explains the apparent "wasted space" underneath the dash. That said, personally, I don't think the HUD adds enough value for what it delivers. Consider you already have the driver's display and the HUD mirrors much of the same data. Many people with the HUD say they could easily live without it but perhaps VAG has future plans for the HUD that we're not aware of.
The ID.4 might be the only easily repairable and reliable VW made in the last 15 years. When the AC cabin fan dies, you no longer need to disassemble the dash to repair it. In a world where most modern VW engines have PLASTIC OIL PANS(!!!!) let's commend them for designing their BEVs with longevity in mind.
Show me how it is harder on a Tesla? Go see new Goonzsquad video, it's a easy as it can get.
@@murphyseb Try replacing the Model 3/Y air filter then get back to us.
Hi I’m a Volkswagen technician in a independent shop and I for one like the way Volkswagen engineered the ID4 especially the HVAC unit. Not long ago I had to replace 2 temperature flap motor on MK7 Golf and I assure you that after replacing them I had a sore body for a couple days If I could’ve replaced the under the hood in a more convenient place I would choose the ID4 design. Let say the A/C evaporators needs replacement on the Mach E how many hours compared to the VW and this repair done under warranty is going to save the manufacturer a lot of money and the customer in the long run.
The VW is a smaller vehicle but has greater interior volume🤷♂️ I think VW did very well
Replacing a temp motor flap in a ID 4,open bonnet,remove 3 bolts:10 $,replacing a temp flap motor in a mach-e:,remove dash panel to remove 3 bolt 500 $.I hate when engineers squeeze a part and when you have to replace it,you have to dissmantle the entire car for a 2$ part
Salty!
Engineers do that. You have to drop engines, and tear though a whole car for a 50 dollar part. Sandy wonders why the average age of America car is 12 years old and a full 25%, of the cars out there are over 15 years old.
@@Frank71 EVs will be kept longer I think.
@@Frank71 EVs will be kept longer I think.
I won't pretend to be an engineer (am a software engineer, but let's not open that can of worms), nor a mechanic. Worked on many vehicles because I like to DIY and have noticed them getting more difficult to work on. Likely because of what Sandy said about being better for the customer not the engineers. My only question with that line of thinking is does it make maintenance more expensive when it's jammed into every nook and cranny and difficult to get to vs just under the hood where you can look at it? If a doo-dad under the dash of the Mustang needs to be serviced, it may take 3 hours to get to, vs. maybe 30 minutes in the VW? I genuinely don't know and could be way off. When I build stuff (again, not an engineer), I always consider maintenance, mostly because I have to maintain whatever thing I hacked together.
ID.4 will be much easier and cheaper to maintain than Mach-E if they have the same faults
With all due respect, many engineers and companies have a complete disregard for the problems created when cramming many components in such a way that servicing afterwards becomes a nightmare. I would assume that good design also evaluates ease to service a vehicle which affects the cost of servicing the vehicle during its entire service life.
Bingo
Why in the world would they do that? It isn't like this is some sort of platform that dozens of models and millions of cars will be built on.
...Oh wait!
@@updlate4756 VW is probably trying to lookout for their dealers so they can both make that money on servicing their EVs, haha.
Unfortunately serviceability isn't what customers come to dealerships for. The average new car buyer couldn't give two s**ts about the travails of service technicians, and EVs generally have fewer mechanical components to fail.
What they do care about is a frunk.
@@Avantime So true! VW built the ID4 in a way that they are anticipating many part failures down the road.
20 miles an hour sitting on that stool 💀Fearless! 💀
Ben is brave.
Already seeing consumer reports writing an artice about how unsafe those electric cars are😂
@@berndm9411 CR might try and one better Ben by drive it without the stool.
My grandfather once told me about one of his jobs driving bare bus chassis 100 miles from where they were built to the factory where the body was put on; he used a shipping crate perched on the frame as a seat. He drove tanks during WW2 so all things considered the bus chassis was probably a less dangerous occupation.
He was fearless even sitting on it, It looked kind of weak.. 👍
One thing Sandy is missing from his analysis is this is the MEB platform. The Mach-E is purpose-built. For the MEB platform the body and interior can change, so putting a bunch of stuff in the dash would have limited the variations of the interior. With the components in the front, a new body can be put on top.
Exactly. But Sandy can not understand it. It is quite embarrassing for him
Also the HUD projector is missing from the US models. Maybe that's part of the space he's seeing.
Wait, does that mean all vehicles from MEB platform will not have frunks?
All that would mean is the platform is not sufficiently granular and therefore flexible.
@@t39868 Yes, that's likely the case. They opted for a shorter wheelbase and even shorter front end which offers very good cabin and luggage space, and a very good turning circle as many reviewers have noted. Not to mention, low price.
Hardly anyone actually uses the frunk, I am glad VW sacrificed it to increase the size of real usable space in the cabin. Sandy is a frunk lover.
Yep. I have nothing against frunk, but VW approach is better.
It does honestly seem weird that Sandy is failing to take into account serviceability. The “frunk” space being given over to a dedicated service bay seems like a far more sustainable and maintenance friendly solution rather than the relatively small increase in storage volume. Not having to rip out interior trim to chance a filter seems like better engineering.
He is a manufacturing engineer. Once it's out the factory and the customer is satisfied during the test drive and buys it...it's not his problem anymore. In my opinion he sometimes has a very limited view on things. One additional concern is noise. Anything under the IP (blower, ac, etc.) is emitting noise into the cabin, while for VW it's behind the firewall and dampened. Also cost. Just bolting stuff into the engine bay is cheap and fast. Maybe not good, but somehow VW has to bring the cost down. Also they both didn't even measure the distance to the front of the vehicle from the ip, giving a better measurement of total space available (or wasted).
How often do you service an EV compared to how often you will use the frunk?
@@Findalfen well, given that the HVAC system in an EV is the same as an ICE vehicle, the same? The filter alone needs replacing every 10k, and the fluids in there probably every few thousands miles. I’d much rather have a servicing bay that gives me easy access to these systems when I need it, than having a super special ice bucket for my 12 pack of crap American lager….
How much VW pay you?
@@nickbrenchley5430 who said that those were not serviceable when having a frunk?
The fluids are usually accessible from the side.
VW was listening to it’s technicians to make accessing the parts easier. The frunk spqce IS easier than working under/inside the IP
That would be ok if all their customers were VW technicians 😂
@@streddaz Or if at the very least, VW would sell you schematics, diagnostic tools, and replacement parts in a reasonable time schedule. I waited 2 months for a new windshield because, according to the dealership, all product was going towards their production line.
@@alexp9303 VW does sell all that, go to er.win an buy them, all there guides, schematics, part lists, service instructions... And that has been the case since the late 90s.
@@DooMMasteR Like I said, reasonable schedule. The car in question had less than 500 miles on it when the rearview mirror mount had fallen off. VW dealership said since it was a 2021 model, they did not have the part in stock, or at any local distributor.
On a side note, do they provide any diagnostic tools on their Car-Net modules? That also has never worked for me since taking the car, and the dealership claims nothing is wrong with the hardware. So how would you go about fixing this?
Also, what happens after the first 5 years and the Car-Net is disabled? Can I swap out the SIM, and host my own server endpoint for the car to communicate with?
Some people prefer a vehicle that's easy to repair. Maybe that's why they put systems under the hood, where they're more easily accessible.
I have new cars and old cars. In new cars I do not care that much, but with the old ones (which I much maintain myself) I care a lot. And I hate engineering where many things are combined big units which are hard to repair, but are probably cheaper to manufacture.
And if we think sustainability, things (including EVs) should be maintainable. One big reason to go to EVs is sustainability -> it should also mean EVs should be easy to maintain and repair and recycle.
Id 4 is 8-15 inches shorter than model y and mach E, but offers same interior and more usable trunk space than both. Tesla doesnt offer a HUD for the very reason there is no space available in the dashboard.
The HUD argument holds no water. Below is a link to a peugeot HUD projector, pretty small huh? Peugeot is not imported to north america. Even if this argument makes sense, to that I would just say that they would be smarter to just have a smaller IP for n American market.
www.amazon.com/dp/B086RFZBWB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_V4RT00JSJR431BF1GT3K
Tesla didnt decline to put a HUD for lack of space. There is plenty of room to add a HUD. They skipped it because it doesnt match their design ethos for human interaction in this model. (Per tweets from Elon).
You can argue that you dont agree with that design ethos, but it would be wrong to say its due to lack of space.
@@h57s I did not know that Elon do not like HUD. As far as I can see he is wrong here. HUD is great.
@@mho0 sure, my girlfriends E-Tron has a HUD, and it's great. I love it. I also disagree with Elon and have ordered an aftermarket HUD for my Model Y.
I’m in my 60’s and more impressive than your remarkable engineering prowess is the fact you can climb under the f##king dash 👏🏻🤘.
I’m in my 60’s and more impressive than you
Sandy is a Contortionist at his age !
Climbing in is one thing but he was able to get out again too!!!!
@@bluetoad2668 He engineered his way out ...
@@bextar6365 a clever system of levers and pulleys no doubt?
Hey Sandy you really should do this with an ID.4 with all the euro options; Heat Pump, Heads Up Display, and AWD. That probably make a difference. Maybe they could get a small tray for charging cables, but maybe not much more.
While your investigating missing frunk mysteries you should look into the nee BMW i4 that thing has a mile long hood and still no frunk.
Also, the ID.4 ist 140mm shorter overall but still fits 2 more banana boxes than the MachE.
I don't want to be the Devil's Advocate but you have to choose between providing additionala storage space
versus packing a lot of stuff in an unaccessible area making later maintenace access difficult and costly.
Car manufacturers have to supply you with front storage space in a car " frunk space".
That ship has sailed catch up or be left behind.
Ok, No Frunk For You! One ID.4!!!
@@davidhumeston5292
I don't think many people care to be honest, not as much as a few would love to want. As many people are more used to not having that space in a car, and 99% of the time it's only a few keeping charging cable or something in that space.
People won't keep something in a slave that's a hassle to open and close all the time, which is why a lot keep the cables in the back where the rear door self opens and closes.
What do you think is easier? A door that opens closes or one where you have to pull a cable twice then get out and open the hood then hold it or whatever to get a cable out.
Tesla doesn't have self opening or closing hoods
Have to remember the id cars have been #1 in Europe for the last 8 months in the largest ev market in the world.
@@morrisg You must buy a converted ICE car (Audi etron) to get a frunk out of VW group. 😂
Components that are rated to last the lifetime of the car don't need to be service accessible... A clever engineer can have their frunk and eat it too!
Your comparison of the ID.4 vs. MachE front end space utilization was very interesting. One aspect of vehicle design that you don't dwell on very much, though, is serviceability. Can VW legitimately claim advantages in the form of easier maintenance that the "frunk potential" was spent on?
The only parts that require regular maintenance is under a plastic shroud located under the hood nearest the firewall. EV HVAC systems should very rarely need service compared to an ice vehicle.
@@gt5228z
Everyone says that evs don't need any maintenance and it's just bs.
There's heaps of videos on people redoing the suspension on Tesla's because it's shot after 3 years.
And they don't want to pay Tesla $12,000 to replace it
@@zagan1 I'm talking specifically about what's under the IP. This stuff hardly needs maintenance with an ice vehicle let alone an EV. I say less with ev because what makes heat and ac work is more complex in an ice vehicle. Suspension and chassis parts maintenance will not differ between ice and EVs.
You can probably change the VW air filter in seconds. 😁
@@abraxastulammo9940 Have you seem something that indicates the same is not possible in the Mustang?
Sandy Munroe: why no frunk for the ID 4? Answer from the Klaus Bischoff, the head of Volkswagen desig ( it is about ID 3 but is also apply to ID 4): There is no ‘frunk’ (referring to luggage space where the engine usually is) on the ID.3 as the nose is quite short and the available space had to be used for the 12-volt battery (which runs the lights, wipers fans, etc), the cooling system and fluid reservoirs. The projector module for the Head-Up Display, which is significantly larger than in other models due to the presence of Augmented Reality takes up a lot of the front space.
Yet there is still a lot of usable space in the ID3 front end. If only they had packaged the components better.
I appreciate the videos, thank you.
Just a thought from a former VW mechanic regarding the vw’s lack of a frunk: it seems possible that by moving components from inside the IP to under the hood; that long term service and repair costs would be lower because of better access for the technician. Is it possible that it is not a case of lazy engineering but rather different design priorities? Does good engineering require components to be difficult to access even if there is ample space for said components elsewhere? Could this design lower assembly costs? Seems like there are plenty of customer benefits besides a frunk. Honestly, I think the greatest appeal of frunks to most people is telling other people that their new car has a frunk:)!
Really appreciate the work you’re doing.
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, if I'm a mechanic and I have to replace a broken component, having it in the frunk is a LOT more appealing than having to crawl under the dash (or even worse pull the dash apart) to make the repair. Maybe it's good engineering to use up as much space in the IP as possible, but doing so DOES have a negative side as well
Car companies don’t care about mechanics. It is not their problem, they never have to open it after it is sold.
No negative effect for them.
@@gurthuk Warranty repairs
This is what separates the good engineers from the average engineers. Engineers with better spatial comprehension design them to be easily serviced and repaired in the future while also innovating.
100% correct
Now I know IP is instrument panel. “Hey kids, get your feet off the IP !”
Sandy with the ID.4: "You can't fit a dead cat in here!"
Sandy with the Mach-E: "You can hide a body in here!"
I love Sandy's morbid analogies lol.
Let me try that out. I bet I can fit a few dead cats and bodies in the ID.4.
Watch for Florida-man like headlines.
I came to the comment section just to see someone talk about this because I was laughing too hard 😂
And yet, id.4 has more total cargo volume, so is he really on point there?
Just put some bubble wrap on top of the VW motor and you can put all your cables inside. 👍
@@davorperat1069 Wouldn't the ID4 have even more cargo volume if they use the IP space and created a frunk? I think he is on point.
If anything under the IP fails on a Mach-E it would be very difficult expensive to replace. You may have to rip out the entire dash. Perhaps VW just decided to trade off serviceability against a frunk. I have had an EV for 8 years and never used the frunk, so perhaps it was not so dumb. Perhaps it was a conscious decision. Just sayin.
One drawback of cramming all that stuff in the dash is that it utterly sucks to try to fix anything under there.
True for most. 'Course, I only buy used cars, so personally spend a little more time under there than others might.
I'm looking forward to see how well this generation of electric cars ages.
There is three options missing from the ID.4 you are showing,
That takes up much of the "wasted" space
Augmented Reality Heads Up Display/AR-Hud sits under the dashboard,
Heatpump sits out in the front
and the front differential(in AWD version)
AR-Hud and Heatpump are not options in North America
If I were a Technician, I'd rather work under the Dash of the VW.
Like you there's nothing there
To do what?
Perhaps clarification: I'd rather service something that is under the hood of the VW than the comparable part built into the IP of the Ford.
I think part of the point was focusing on the customer need, not the engineer or technician. Having said that, if the parts in question are likely to require service, ease of service will affect the customer once warranty is over in terms of cost. Personally, a decent frunk seems to be a desirable feature that can be delivered in EV's. VW not delivering one is a fail, regardless of what the arguments are about serviceability etc. Seems like it might have been a rush job in engineering by VW to recover from dieselgate and possibly a lack of funds for the engineering on this first model because of things like 30 billion dollars of fines for dieselgate.
@@bikeaddictbp assuming there's a likelihood that the parts that are in there commonly need service.
You still don’t get it!
Look at cargo and seating space, not under the dashboard where nobody occupies. The ID.4 is 5” shorter and still has more Cubic feet space than the Mach-e in including the front trunk. Sounds like good engineering!
re: "not under the dashboard where nobody occupies" CHALLENGE ACCEPTED...!!! (Matt Watson voice)
What if VW's design considerations were ease of maintenance and cost saving instead of cramming in a frunk that could be used as a cooler for your Pabst Blue Ribbon?
Exactly. Good engineering is being able to design an innovative product while also retaining excellent serviceability and repairability, within the budget. The majority of engineers don't understand this.
And the ID4 is 13cm overall shorter
You’re being way too nice to VW here lol
How much VW pay you?
@@3nityC I’ll tell you if you tell me how much Sandy paid you.
Don’t hate on Sandy…you’ll be outta here faster than threaded fasteners
Yeah, threaded fasteners appear to be his “issue”. I work in an industry that deals with strict tolerances, high pressures, and strong regulatory oversight and you won’t find many fasteners that are not threaded, especially where safety is a concern.
@@texaszag8748 Almost sounds like different problems need different solutions.
@@ILLEagle_1 True. And one thing that frustrates me when I go to work on a car is when plastic fasteners that have become brittle from heat and age snap off and leave me with no way to reinstall the part without replacing a bunch of plastic crap.
@@texaszag8748 I think you have more choices than threads or plastic snaps. For example, design it so that you don't need all those fasteners.
@@henryD9363 I get that. But in some respects, eliminating parts by creating systems that combine functions can add complexity and cost. For instance, on my Touareg, the PCV valve needed to be replaced. But that traditionally easy-to-replace $15 part (yes, I’m old) has been integrated into the valve cover (~$500) that requires removal of the intake manifold to replace! So what used to be a cheap DIY project has evolved into an expensive $1,500 trip to the shop. I wan’t happy with that experience. And apparently VW are not alone with that particular evolution. I am not opposed to smart design evolution, but don’t box stuff up in complex components and systems just to avoid threaded fasteners; which I don’t believe are nearly as unreliable as portrayed to be. I don’t ever recall going to fix something to find that it was loose fasteners that led to the failure, because I don’t recall ever finding loose threaded fasteners on things that I took apart.
No frunk, save weight. Easy to inspect & service. Great!
I think sandy does not (want to) see the bigger picture. There are so many more Cars on the MEB platform in Europe and Sandy just sees the ID.4 as the only car (without the platform). And having a platform also benefits the Customer (parts, service and so on). It's not like Tesla where they have 4 different cars and that's it, for VW Group it will be dozens of different models. I think Sandy's opinion is important and valuable in his field, but in the end the manufacturer has to decide and consider all other requirements which have to be taken into account.
Ben’s delivery is much improved. Sandy must be a great mentor.
Totally agree
Yea it’s great to see them grow as a channel! :)
At 7:25 I agree with Sandy but when your H-Vac radiator goes out some makes of car currently you looking at 3,000 to 5,000USD bill to fix a 20 to 50USD part because all the dashboard has to come out of the car etc - when it placed in the frunk it makes the owner of the car and the mechanic that gets to employed to replace the broken part a lot happier
Citroen BX from the 1980s had polymer rear hatch and trunk lid along with one piece polymer bumpers. The latter were self coloured so no paint costs.
The ability to change a tire without a tire jack was advanced.
But how long is the hood? Does Ford get a frunk because there is a greater length from fire wall to bumper?
That's the argument most people made in the first video of Sandy's take on the ID.4 front end. Instead of covering that point, he ignored it and looked at something completely different!
@@updlate4756 biases can be hard to acknowledge.
ID4 is quite shorter too in total length, 14cm
If you look at what’s inside the Mach E frunk, there’s just as much stuff. Most of the frunk comes from the longer hood.
I respect your experience, but it was communicated by VW well before the first ID cars left the plant, that they had a lot of space of the instrument panel allocated for the augmented reality HUD. You seem to have a vehicle without the HUD, so of course that space is empty.
source? photo of the HUD in the space? I will go wild an say you are completely guessing.
@@murphyseb at 8:42 you can watch the lead architect of MEB talk about the space under the hood, explaining that it was a conscious decision to free up interior space: ruclips.net/video/eRFzmdEQ3sM/видео.html
I indeed couldn't find a picture of the actual HUD-unit, but in this post someone took a picture from top down. You can see a fairly large black area in front of the steering wheel. That's the HUD.
www.goingelectric.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1338994#p1338994
@@murphyseb good news: Audi has a video where there is at least a schematic of it:
www.audi-technology-portal.de/de/elektrik-elektronik/fahrerassistenzsysteme/audi-q4-e-tron-ar-hud-de/
You can see the red outline from 0:22
@@murphyseb you defend these people like they are you’re own flesh and blood - seriously find something more productive to do with your life.
@@ianthomasdooley859 such a great response... and a day later at that... it's you that need a life. Me i'm fine doing multiple things a day like asking when someone state something like it's the only truth without providing sources.
The measurement-strategy is strange. It would make more sense, measuring the distance between the front of the car and the steering wheel. So we can compare the length difference between the driver and the front end. For me, the „frunk delta“ seems to be more or less the lengh distance difference of the front end. The hood of the FOrd is way longer. But Sandy dont like the ID4, we are getting it.
The ID4 has a shorter front overhang though
And is quite shorter overall (13cm)
It is shorter overall, smaller in volume and seems not to lack in passenger space...
Maybe it is just a more compact car 🤔
I cannot see how he could overlook that fact.
@@DooMMasteR One thing he didn’t overlook and what’s most important. The Mustang Mach-E has better engineering behind it than the ID4. VW needs to reduce the price of the ID4. It is way too close in price to the Mach-E, yet you get a lot more car out of the Mach-E. It’s clearly the better vehicle of the two.
@@waynelewis9110 The Mach-E is a single model car, while the ID.4 is based off a common platform with the ID.3 and other VAG brand cars, which is where the savings return.
Also a lot of the engineering is done because these are world cars, the ID.4 e.g. has a 3/4 way CO2 heat pump in Europe, not available in the US.
There also is a HUD available here, which takes a lot of the dash space, and it is not at all available in the US.
Same goes for other stuff like massage seats and such.
So while the Mach-E is a single off car, the ID.x cars share most parts between them which makes it a lot less viable to place components inside of the cabin and also requires a short common hood. And short cars are a preference in most parts of the world.
@@seb. "seems NOT to lack in passenger space" so yeah the offered space for size is very good on the ID.4.
Lol the hood of the Match E is like twice as long as the ID.4
Yeah inside of the ID.4 passage space and cargo area seems larger and it is 13 cm smaller than the Mach-E
I agree.. I dont get the hate. I rather have a bigger boot than a Frunk to be honest. I wonder if people ever use their Frunks
Having those components easily accessed would increase the ease of repair, wouldn't it? Rather than need to remove the dash to access something it's right on show under the hood. Personally I'd trade a small storage space for making this easier to access and repair.
You and me both.
Did you not hear what the just said?
That's why he said what he said. And I'm quite sure that he took all of that into consideration.
@@twany442 no, I didn't hear them say that. Admittedly when I watched this I had just woken up, and was in the midst of feeding pets and making coffee so I may have just missed it. If they said it that's great. The way they did it was the most logical choice while designing the vehicle. I had a model 3 as a company car for 18 months, and that thing was a nightmare. Several things broken with the screen/infotainment and fans in the dash and the entire dash had to come out each time to access literally anything. The VW looks like an entirely better vehicle to me (aside from the interior colour at least).
@@Kevin-hp5fk And thing Mach E looks like a better vehicle to me that's neither here or there though. The id4 has a shorter front end and more interior space. The Mustang Mach e has less interior space and a longer front end. At the end of the day they'll both unsnap the dashboards off of both and do what they need to do.
Sandy hit it right in the head with “Engineers need to make it what’s best for customers and not for them”
seem 'german' engineering is way behind the americans in EVs
@@andrewcannon587 I guess it depends a bit. I heard Sandy was complaining about empty space, which I understood from other chats that it is reserved for Heat pump and HUD for example. So there is no empty space available.
So it actually seems that analysis was off from the beginning.
@@mho0 sandy rated iD4 as the worst of mach E and audi etron
@@andrewcannon587 Yep. And I think analysis to get that to conclusion was not very good. It was missing quite many facts.
@@mho0 maybe there is no such thing as a guru in anything, there is always somebody out there that's know more.
i think there is something to be said to not have to pull apart the dash to change the in cabin air filter. The frunk on the Mach e is cool for sure, but im not putting beers in it all the time.
Lots of cars put the cabin filter in the back of the glovebox; just because Tesla put it in an super inconvenient location doesn't mean everyone has to.
One measurement I would like to know for the ID4 and Mach-e: total distance from the edge of the IP in the cabin to the very edge of the front bumper.
My thoughts exactly! Just look at that long 'muscle-car' Mustang bonnet!
That's what I expected to discover in that video, disappointed 😞
I guess the whole Sandy's point would make much less sense then
The ID4 still could have had a frunk. They simply just designed for it to not have one. I mean dude, he literally showed that they had a bunch of wasted, empty space under the passenger side of the dash. They could have made space for a frunk, but they didn’t. There is no excuse for VW here.
@@CoxJul That is not important. The ID4 and Model Y have roughly the same size hood area, yet the Model Y has a frunk, but the ID4 does not. It’s not that VW couldn’t include a frunk. They literally made the choice not to.
How is the noise level in the cabin in the Mach-e compared to ID.4 when the HVAC is running at high speeds? I know my ID.4 is quite silent compared to my previous vehicle which had the HVAC unit in the IP.
As a consumer my request is to get rid of the dashboard completely. Ditch the "frunk" idea and pack everything from under the dash to the frunk. Makes things easily repairable, gets rid of ugly dashboards and opens up the cabin immensly.
If you do that then any touch screens or touch points (climate control, radio) would be too far away from the driver bolted to the firewall. Those items have to be brought closer to the driver, so why not use that empty space above your feet to hid those things. Unless, of course, you love the seating position in the original Beetle where your hand hits the windshield while turning.
From one old engineer to another: you are my role model. Your knowledge and skill are too valuable to waste, and engineering is too much fun give up for retirement. Go Sandy!
I strongly suspect that the VW -MEQ- MEB HVAC layout is identical across a large number of current and future models by VW and its numerous sub-brands. VW may well have done actual market research to determine customer demand for a Frunk. I don't know this to be true but I do know customers are highly motivated by pricing. Reducing tooling and assembly labor by reusing assemblies across various products can absolutely reduce the sales price of a product.
I've never said you don't know engineering. I have said and still say that when you venture into areas of EV performance, customer preferences, and other areas where you are less expert it undermines your brand.
EDIT: and I have to add that, as a guy who has fiddled with components under an instrument panel I am sure mechanics in the future will appreciate VW's layout, even as those same future mechanics will curse a leaking Octovalve.
And the ID4 he was is not even a top of the line model with AWD, heads up and lots of extras.
It is so embarrassing that he can not get the Meb platform and how versitale it is.
@@flienky Oops! Thanks for catching my typo!
Yes, Sandy does seem to get stuck on some details and just can't let them go. It has been fun to watch him turn around on Ford though. For years he has carped about how awful they were when he worked there The first Mach E video had a lot of that but he quickly evolved as he got deeper into the car.. This video and the Maverick review show him really going through some changes.
You weren't going to get an OTA Update as soon as you took the doors off. The Mach-E Manual states that the doors must be closed for updates to be performed.
Don't expect him to do any actual research or know what he's talking about.
Tricking the ECU with a closed sensor, there is no need for a door. But Sandy Munro is not so much into software and software features anyway. They are more into parts and hardware and their production and assembly like moldings, extrusions, stampings, fasteners, clips, rivets, glue and whatnot. So, any OTA update simply makes no difference to them.
Congratulations on 200k subs.
Thank you so much 😀
@@MunroLive Just had an idea for a video.
Tesla will install 10,000 superchargers this year. What is the cost difference between the tesla superchargers and the other charging stations with their screens and RFID readers. Maybe a teardown of the chargers with an eye on how to make them more reliable. Thanks.
you got your play button yet
@@ogodei70 Great idea
it looks like then MEB platform can give more freedom for the interior designer and a faster car development time. when ford has develop mach-e, volkswagen group has develop id.3, id.4, enyaq, q4 e-tron, cupra born and all could be build in the same fab. (enyaq will be made in the skoda fab). even ford will build MEB cars it can't be that bad concept.
Designing generically seems like a great goal, but your competition is going to crush you with more custom designs. This is physical space we are talking about, not modular software. It does provide reduced development costs but as far as making a competitive end product...
Standardization has served the auto makers well. It keeps development and manufacturing costs down and provides more opportunities to review and modernize the platform. One-off designs tend to be expensive to produce and if you don’t produce sufficient volume, can lead to a longer learning curve with the tech.
Not sure how it is in the us, but the combined sale of Enyaq, id4 and Q4 is much higher than the Mach E in Europe, to me it’s looks like VW is crushing Ford.
@@gytefisk Ford's still building production. Wait. VW already isn't selling well in key areas like China. So they frankly have nothing the brag about yet. The infotainment is a complete disaster right now.
ID4 seems like a product targeting Europeans. My wife took one look at the ID4 and laughed.
You seem a bit biased against the ID.4. I already had that impression when you compared the battery packs: while you criticized VW several times for the amount of screws you didn’t mention it once on the ford despite the number seemed equal at first glance. Here again it seems to me you overrate the value of having this front trunk. I as a costumer would rather have more storage else where. On the hood you have those double looking mechanism, that doesn’t seem very convenient compared to the back trunk with automatic opening and stuff. Having said that Volkswagen probably made a mistake there if there is some unused space in there…
Still enjoy your videos, keep going! :)
From gas car point of view, i wouldn't want to have anything inside the dashboard as it's a total pain to take out and fix. A broken heater core in an older car is usually left as is because it can take 2000 bucks to replace just because of work hours needed to rip the dash out.
Now I get the point from a manufacturer consultant but fixing things behind/under the IP is a huge pain in the ass. So we have that fix stuff vs build stuff having different pressures.
I didn't know Recaro made stools, but I'm digging it.
LOL, awesome
Simplify and add lightness! 😉
It looks like Sandy still doesn’t know why VW decided to move the HVAC unit out of the way.
I know he knows much about car industry but he doesn’t know everything about anything.
Could VW have done it better? Maybe, but you know I don’t think a frunk was on their list when they designed the platform. Sandy should remember that the MEB is not a car but a platform where many cars share lots of parts.
Nevertheless, as always very informative. BTW, Ford has long ago started designing some hybrid metal-composite structural parts for their cars, so not much to see at that hatch.
What about comparing the length from the front edge of the car to bottom edge of the windshield between id4 and the mustang? I bet the mustang is much longer and that explains why there is so much more space in its frunk.
That's what i expected to see in this video, mach-e is 14cm longer, with a less impressive packaging
Sassy Uncle Sandy is one of my favorites!
Driving a Mustang 🐎 with heavy metal blasting, wind in the hear, sitting on a stool 💺...... 🤦
Love it! Thanks Munro team!
I have 49 years under my belt as an engineer and i know my personal engineering capabilities (all aspects) just like you know yours. Don't get offended by morons who insult you by questioning your engineering skills - you know how good you are and that is all that is necessary. Your track record speaks for itself - you have better things to waste your time on than their opinions...
Highly underrated channel! This is really showing the people what we are buying under all that pretty sheet metal and plastic.
c'mon Sandy. we all have so much respect for you and your experience. no need to defend yourself.
100% agree!
Good engineering is being able to design an innovative product while also retaining excellent serviceability and repairability, within the budget. The majority of engineers don't understand this.
Just remember that experience doesn't help if you've been doing something suboptimally. Not an attack against Sandy but it's to challenge the notion that experience is king. Many variables.
I think folks who buy BEVs will probably buy a new one every 3 years. Probably part of the reason they actually have a bigger carbon footprint.
@@andrewmeehan6151 People who buy BEVs every 3 years also bought ICE cars every 3 years. I plan to drive my Tesla around 10 years barring any accidents.
@@ymcpa73 fair enough, I just base that on the iPhone analogies!
@@ymcpa73 In that case do you care about maintainability, as it seems to be one core topic here?
As Sandy probably knows, it isn't always the engineers who "miss" opportunities in design, but the bean counters who nix more aggressive development, or the marketers for the sake of speed to market. Engineering is always a compromise between utility vs cost. While I tend to agree with Sandy's design assessment, it might still be more a problem of current constraints placed on the VW engineers, than their lack of imagination. Anyway, the market will decide who's right better than I can.
re: "it might still be more a problem of current constraints placed on the VW engineers" exactly, lest we forget these are the same guys who built both the Bugatti VEYRON and 300MPH Bugatti CHIRON SuperSport, the ID-R (Nurburgring EV Lap Record 6:05 and Pikes Peak Overall Record 7:57, built the Porsche GT2RS/MR Nurburgring Record 6:43, and built the Lemans 919 Hybrid Nurburgring Record 5:19). unfortunately it seems a great many are either A: not paying attention...? or are B: SELECTIVELY paying attention...? ref Teslarati, neurotic/maladjusted "Techies" who are "baby young to the world" (particularly the world of Automotive R&D).
It might also be constraints the engineers placed on themselves because of competing design priorities. It isn’t always the bean-counters’ fault.
re: "It isn’t always the bean-counters’ fault." oh no it's ALWAYS the fault of bean counters. this is accepted GOSPEL across the board and across all sectors. SUCK IT CPA's...!!! IN YOUR FACE STUPID ACCOUNTANTS...!!!
@@phillyphil1513 I respectfully disagree. Having worked in the engineering field for the last 30+ years, my experience tells me that sometimes it just ain't so.
Makes the design the ID.4 easier to repair? If yes, I would prefer it.
At the cost of less frontal crumple zone? No thanks.
It's an EV; repairability is less important. Obviously it'll still require repair, and time will tell, but ideally it'll require less repair over time than an ICE.
I love this channel. Getting new videos from Sandy is a highlight of my week. Most of the time, I agree with him BUT I am an ID.4 owner who chose VW over Tesla.
The ID.4 serves me well. The AC works great in the VA heat. And I don’t really care if I don’t have a frunk.
as an owner of an ID4 I can see with my own eyes that they could have rearranged the contents under the hood for a small frunk. With what Sandy is point out I don't see why they didn't unless it makes it easier when switching between Seat, Cubra, and Skoda.
They're all the same under the skin, VW, Skoda, SEAT so it wouldn't make a difference in that respect.
Sandy lost me completely in his id 4 suspension video where he did claim that its mcpherson strut front suspension was cheap "like Toyota",while the model 3 suspension was premium "like BMW". The fun thing is that generations of BMWs until today have struts up front like VW and Toyota while Teslas have dual wishbones like generations of american pick up trucks.
He may have been referring to their multilink front and rear, not the struts. BMW uses multilink with struts while Toyota uses simple struts with lower control arms, if memory serves me correctly. I still think everything else is a compromise versus double wishbones.
I think that Sandy's [and Ben's] general impression of the VW ID.4 is spot on. It's a very good vehicle, but it could have been better. My own ID.3 has much the same feel. There's a lingering quality about it which suggests that VW had to get the product to market double quick. And you can imagine their thinking - "why do they need a big space at the front? The previous cars had engines in there. Next time they can have a frunk. We don't have time to completely design away from what we've done before..." And although the ID series of cars have never had ICE engines anywhere near them, VW engineers couldn't help but be influenced by tried and trusted methods. That's been my impression of my car so far. Incidentally, the space under the ID.3 bonnet is packed too. No frunk for me.
EDIT: Wow, 10 months quickly go by - I mentioned before that the space under my ID.3's bonnet was packed. Actually, that's not quite true. It's packed because all the components are spaced out. There would be plenty of room for a small frunk if VW had taken the time. You can reach in between the components and wave your forearm about. But as I wrote before, I believe they rushed it. Incidentally, the Infotainment software is still poor and lagging, as of May 2022, but VW can still correct that. We're never going to get that frunk, except perhaps in a major facelift or the next model.
The 1st VW, the VW Beetle had a frunk...
@@StormyDog Indeed. But no boot.
This is beyond ridiculous?
Just because a car is electric should not automatically mean the car has a 'frunk'. Ice cars usually don't have a 'frunk', which means people have been without one for nearly 100 years.
Its really a major turn off that every EV that isn't from Tesla must meet or exceed a Model 3..
These EVs from other brands are not Teslas, these other cars are unique within their own brands.
There needs to be EVs for people who do not want a Tesla.
It is allways the best i hear from people when we talk about their work and why they are good at it...."Because i do this for 10/15/20/30 years...!" You made my day...
My ID.4 (in the Netherlands) has a projecting HUD in the instrument panel, yhis is basically a short-throw projector as it utilizes a large part of the windscreen to project navigation directions. Could that be the reason that the filled the "engine bay" as they needed the space for this projector? Isn't it also that the Mach-e hood is a bit longer, allowing some more space in the front?
Mr Munro- I can't believe that anyone would challenge your knowledge. I really appreciate you and your staff sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. Thanks!
Make it easy for the customer, like VW did.
Easy to walk past their dealerships ^^
When I built my FFR ‘65 Daytona Coupe, I used the instrument panel/box for ignition, Coil, fuse box, ground block and the junction point for all the wiring. HVAC is n/a but there is very little wiring exposed under the hood.
Frunk? Who cares. Nobody wants to routinely open and close the front hood ... so any storage there isn't a big deal ... unless you do like Ford did with the Lightning and make it a workspace (that seemed brilliant for a work truck IMHO). Go do a study and find out how often a frunk is actually used for grocery bags ... I think not ... because opening/closing that large hood is awkward. If everything is stuffed under the dash, isn't it harder and more expensive to service? "I can't even get my hand in!" ... my point exactly. So use the space to make maintenance easier. I can't tell you that that is VW's thinking (or if that's the best thinking), but arguing about a frunk is making a mountain out of a molehill.
How much VW pay you?
@@3nityC Zero. My thoughts and comments are my own.
I haven’t seen the « engine bay » by myself yet but... stashing electronics there is a hazard when it comes to rain, sleet, snow and frost. Here in Canada we have road salts and it gets EVERYWHERE so anything that we can get inside is a plus in the long run.
Thank you Sandy for the holiday wishes, it’s good that a US citizen acknowledges this as most US citizens see us as foreigners. We’re cousins, not strangers. Happy 4th of July to all!
You make a ton of great points but as a technician there are somethings i disagree with. I guess engineers and mechanics will always be at odds
The best products ocurr, when they talk to each other and learn a lot. This leads to best long life products.
200,000 subscribers! Congratulations MunroLive team
Thanks very much for thinking of and mentioning Canada at the wrap up of this video. Very thoughtful.
Sandy is from Canada -- Windsor Ontario.
The front of the mach-e is also longer than the id4. Maybe that's also why.
Maybe you can work on the VW without tearing the entire thing apart.
If you look up how to change the cabin air filter on either car, you will see this is exactly the case. Much easier on the VW.
@@michaelbuschmanable yeah, and that's what'll make you decide to buy a VW, every time. (sarcasm)
Granted EV's don't require the maintenance that ICE's do but the less time I spend at a dealer service center the better. The same people who whine about not having a coupl extra square feet of storage with 'tailgating accessories' will be the ones blistering Ford in the forums and comment sections for how much they had to pay for the multiple hours of service, time lost with the family, had to take a whole day off from work, etc.
@@michaelbuschmanable Few people will make a purchase decision based on the ease of replacing the cabin filter.
@@bluetoad2668 No, but the quieter cabin because the HVAC and a lot of pumps aren't hidden under the dash, but are under the hood instead, will make you buy it. And the ID4 is quite a bit quieter and more refined than the Mach-E.
I know this is a two years old clip from Munro.
The reason why VW Company and Nissan do not have a frunk is because they have chosen to put the air conditioning out in the so-called engine compartment to reduce noise in the cabin.
And the noise in a Tesla and Ford Mach E is louder in the ID7, Enyag, Q4 and the Nissan Ariya.
I prefer a quieter car than a frunk car, which I will never use
Interesting. Despite all that waste and despite the fact that the ID.4 is 17cm shorter and 68mm narrower, it offers 6cm more interior length than the Model Y. It really annoys me that VW was so wasteful. The ID.4 could have been around 100 kg lighter and more spacious. I'm really interested in the ID.4 II and ID.3 II.
VW insist that the model Y is in a different vehicle class than the ID4, they're right about that. Model Y is in a class of its own and it'll outsell the ID4 by about 5 to 1 at least.
@@bluetoad2668 The Model Y, which is about 10000 bucks more expensive, can't be that great either if it offers less interior space even though the ID.4 is so wasteful and much smaller. Furthermore the Model Y's ride comfort is much worse.
Maybe they wanted to make servicing more accessible? I see it costs hundreds of dollars to change air conditioner units that are hidden behind the dash, requiring a almost full tear-out.
Just a thought Sandy 🙋♂️
Ben, great explanations along with Sandy of course!
Plus: moving parts towards middle of vehicle, gives a more agile/quick turning vehicle.
By your logic BMW i3 has worst space design. IP is super deep compare to these two vehicles. Next time measure distance between licence plate and steering wheel. That would make much more sense.
As a tech I can say I have no complaints with what VW did, Wont have to remove the dash to replace a leaking evaporator. And will not break the bank for a customer getting out of warranty evaporated replaced.
The ID.4 has a much more flexibility for multiple types of products. The Mach-e as far as know is a single model with very little variance.
Maybe they are engineering for the customer in terms of repairability. If everything is squashed and hidden, it's also a pain if something needs to be replaced in there.
Question is how often do the components in the IP need replacing. I've had my ICE car for 12 years and they never had to take the dash apart. Changing the cabin filter was a bit of a PITA but was doable.
Space aside is the VW version more serviceable because of better access
Maybe the goal is to make a car that doesn't need service and not a car that is more serviceable...
I’ve worked for a few seriously good companies and brilliant and experienced engineers and designers, Sandy you don’t need to answer to anyone, you know your shit and then some!!!
Bravo!!!
Cars engineered by Sandy would be basically unrepairable.
I the case of the frunk that's not true at all, please go see video of repair Tesla, except for body repair like all car the rest is easy, heck kids can do it (see Goonzsquad video).
And they would need repairing as he favors cheap short life parts.
Sandy would be good at designing something like an F1 car or a single use machine like a rocket. Things with pre-determined lifespans
I think it would have been a better design for both the ID.4 and the Mach-E to have a smaller hood similar to the Model Y
to have a better Cd (Drag coefficient). But VW and Ford want to be able to add a Range extender or an Hydrogen Fuel Cell stack.
The fact that the frunk cannot be open with an App of a button on the display monitor instead of an handle
located only fron the driver side proove it.
Is this a joke? They "reverse engineer" a US-spec car without head-up display, without heatpump, without frontwheel motor and drive (all of which are available in Europe). And they wonder why there's so much room? Also, they compare a purpose built car such as the E Mach - which has a 6" longer hood - with the open MEB platform from VAG.
Please Sandy, do your homework. This is laughably bad.
I have taken some of your advice into consideration, regarding fasteners. The team and I, are trying to work on a shore power device, and will look to add clips instead of bolts, and test it for vibrations in SolidWorks. Appreciate your contributions to the field!
I don't really get the rant. The ID4 was engineered to have more usable space than the Model Y.
www.automobile-propre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/model-y-id-4-comparaison.jpg
Having empty space under the dash doesn't mean there is no space in the ID4 .And to be honest as a customer I don't care if there is any unused space underneath my dashboard, I just want usable space in my car. As a mechanic it completely different and I'm very happy about some room to work with. Good luck changing the airfilter or blower in that Mach-E.
Just my 2 cents.
Living in the UK it seems pretty obvious why there is nothing on the "driver side" ;). Also who wants a frunk..... happy to store all my stuff in the back