I was a little worried that Munro Live would stagnate after the Model Y teardown series wrapped up, but it turns out I just love engineering porn, and this channel is probably the best out there. The insights we get for free from this channel are highly valuable.
It's great but remember that's it's not for free, the RUclips algorithm and therefore Google and so Alphabet have sold your attention to the advertisers which you see on the platform - that's the business model. Munro live is great content but nothing on this platform is free.
@@torcek1991 Looks like it's riveted directly to the cell-interconnects with the flexibility taking up tolerances. Not needing connectors at each interconnect probably balances out the cost.
Full stop, watch munro... Hey, Sandy! Can you go over the differences between pouches and cylinder cells. Things like energy per volume, energy/kg, ability to use as structural component, etc?
Higher energy capacity possible per unit means fewer cells Battery weight can be lower but harder to package cells a way that can provide structural support for a vehicle.
The 52 second intro of the disassembly taking place could easily be extended for many minutes. It's fascinating! Thanks as always, Sandy, Ben and team.
I agree, that's a pretty good design with a lot less assembly work than a 21700 or 18650 Tesla tray with all the aluminum ribbon cooling paths. Love these videos - you are doing a great job!
Be careful there, Tesla batteries have proven themselves over millions of miles, it's the most critical part of a BEV and it has to be right. My single biggest reason for going with Tesla is the high confidence I have in their tech and the no. 1 part is the battery.
It is noticeable that the assembly of packaged batteries is difficult to automate. It is very difficult to ensure the quality of the assembly of the cells. (Based on the experience of Kona and Bolt)
Mache-E is beginning making me begin to doubt the overall superiority of cylindrical cells, I can't wait to see your best of best design. Hats off to the Ford team and hats off to Munro and associates.
These pouches are def better and as they learn to get good connections and control swelling they will take over. I personally think they should wire them in spirals to cut down on collectors and bus bars.
I deal with a lot of batteries mostly pouch style but also cylindrical cells in industrial equipment. Seen several thermal runaways and caused one myself. I have a healthy fear of anyone or any machine handling pouches. Give me a good strong can any day.
@@videcomp Perhaps the foam in between the poach cells does more than just compensate for the expansion. kulrtechnology.com/hydra-thermal-runaway-shield/
Excellent review guys. I am encouraged by what Ford has done on the Mach-E. I hope they can manage to be flexible and act quickly to evolve this and other vehicles. Your comparisons shed so much light on competing designs. I sure hope you sell your upcoming "composite design" I can only imagine how positive that would be for all OEMs. One this is for sure, you are helping advance the development of EV design in a BIG way.
Thanks for the detailed break down. Reviewing to use three of the smaller battery packs to replace the lead batteries in my 96v lead battery powered Wheego.
Just read a video title today (didn't get around to watch the video yet) and it seems it's a manufacturing defect from LG, so construction method is unrelated to the Bolt fires.
It was interesting to see that LG's packs are using the same type of cells as I have used in electric model aircraft, while Tesla continues to use individual cells like 18650s.
This feels a lot like character development, it's very interesting how our opinion about a car changes during this teardowns after the first impressions you get the out of the superficial stuff. A lack of attention to detail, or the opposite, at this level can really shift your impression of the car
That’s a lot of fluid carrying rubber hose, hose clamps & push connectors inside the sealed battery pack. Service nightmare if a clamp or o-ring leaks.
Note the compressing bolts in the four corners of the modules and the rigid metal webbing to reinforce the end plates to prevent warping. This provides compression across the pouch cells to keep them in contact with the cold plates and to keep the individual layers internal to each pouch in close contact. Since the anodes swell when charged and shrink when discharged this is why you need the compression of the pouch stack along with the foam to compensate for the swelling / shrinking. Compare this to a cylindrical cell where the jelly roll is built to a certain diameter, placed in the can and then the electrolyte is added and the can capped. The metal cylinder provides the compression force to the jelly roll. The amount of swelling on charge / shrinking on discharge increases as you add more silicon to the carbon of the anode. Adding silicon adds energy capacity to the cell, but if it swells / shrinks too much it can fracture the anode coating and ruin the cell. A delicate balance must be maintained.
Your statement about swelling is only true for the first 400 charge cycles for state of charge then it changes. After 400 cycles swelling will not change due to state of charge and will become permanent and grow with age. FYI stiffness of jelly roll change drastically with state of charge.
9:00 After you've separated the cells like that, you're not dealing with voltages high enough to require PPE. I'd still wear basic gloves, but that's only to prevent contaminants.
Given GM and Hyundai Motor Group's recent issues with LG Chem pouch cells, I'd be seriously worried about the long term safety of this battery pack. Ford needs to do some serious testing on these cells to make sure they aren't going to cause vehicle fires as they have in Hyundai and Chevy's EVs.
Thanks Sandy and crew! I feel like the videos you added lately are of amazing quality and very informative and show how much your channel has grown. I feel like you are educating the tech fans like me to a level that satisfies every expectation and I'm sure you are inspiring tons of people to get an education in engineering, design, and whatnot, this is what matters the most in the end!
Love the channel, but you should consider getting a EE on staff that can talk about the electronics from an electrical perspective. Love the assembly/manufacturing perspective but a skilled electrical/electronics engineer to dig into the EE details.
Don't slam Albert like that. Sandy is a hack! I just watch him to remind me who the dirt bag is that's cheapened American cars to the point of junk. He needs a box of bolts rammed up his back side
no. it was perfect. it was loud enough to give the music its full voice. -- but what was the music used? it was not appropriately attributed in the notes
My guess is that the Bolt problem is a bad battery batch from LG. This would explain the failed fixes as GM try every work around that they can to avoid the immense cost of full battery pack replacement. A newer batch of batteries from LG should not have the same problem.
Some Mach Es have already gone in for battery replacements. Replacing not repairing. I think Ford either wants whole units back to autopsy, but maybe just doesn't trust dealers to do the repair yet. I'm following this on the Mach E forum. I find it telling that the upcoming Ford Lightning electric pickup is using SK batteries.
No way. A tenth of the stiffness, a third of the strength. You can redesign it but will need to increase the pack height by at least half an inch. That's either less batteries, or even less room in the cabin... Steel and aluminum are good materials. Plastic is not for structural applications (and I'm a plastic automotive engineer....)
Looking forward to seeing your Best of the Best Battery Mach-up. Pun intended! Really enjoy these videos - progress is made in small measures over time.
I guess you've never seen a Tesla battery, which has modules (like this) with fluid connections to every module, and layers of structure to hold everything together. There's little difference in complexity.
I would imagine that these companies have patents on almost every aspect of their designs, so it will be interesting if you take the best ideas from each to make a better, cheaper battery. Better factor in some significant royalty costs for that bad boy.
A one sided one can be. The process for mass production using continuous fed plastic ribbon requires less material handling than rigid board. Ribbon can be punched and cut to odd shaped with lower cost tooling than rigid board. Flexible boards can connect to directly to other nonplanar components, eliminating added connectors and harnesses.
Sandy & Corey, whatever level you need to pull or decal you need to sell to get one of the first Rivian R1T's & Tesla CyberTruck Tri-Motor in a tear-down comparison will blow your channel up! I have reservations on both, plus the Lightning. Love what your team is doing! Thank you
we visited there last Oct. & it was awesome.. i've ordered the tri motor fsd ct & i can't wait for it to get here!! I may buy the S or the Y in the meantime..i got lots of solar & back up battery system as well.
Plastic is mPPO if it's like the Bolt. No worries as this thing will only see 60 degrees C max.... 0 thermal degradation, no UV exposure... Mild stresses.
So it's basically a larger Bolt design. Far too many parts, assemblies... the MEB pack looks simpler with its extruded aluminum modules. However, these extruded modules have one additional layer of thermally conductive gap filler, an inner insulation that's coated, and welded end caps making it tough to disassemble. So it's a trade off, clearly!
amazing, you can get a 101 course on manufacturing something as state-of-the-art at car batteries, right on your closest screen. I only hope this helps bring home manufacturing to my city, state and country. Watch and learn young geniuses!
I'm curious - are there any built-in protection features at the cell level? Overcurrent, over/under-voltage? Or is that redundant when you have a sophisticated BMS managing the whole pack?
Great question, my understanding is that different cells can degrade at different rate, so they need smart charging down to the cell level. But I have no idea if anybody actually does that.
Same concern since the battery is similar to Chevy Bolt and the multiple Bolt fire caused by charging. The Bolts that had battery fire issues were from 2019 and earlier so let's hope Ford is up to sniff with their software and hardware .
Cell voltage is always the same for the ones in parallel. So never at a single cell level but by rows of 2 here on these modules. You cannot charge the cells independantly. Current flows in series from the tabs, and only time with deep discharge or high charge can rebalance things. The BMS can track this, but cannot correct it independantly. Just imagine a bath tub with multiple cavities that have slightly different levels. It's only when you reach the top that you can balance all cavities...
Man another great Friday with Munro Live! I think it's kinda nice the whole battery tray could be disassembled in sections, Great Channel, Yes Ford is Taking Notes
Very informative video as always, thanks! The cooling system looks better than anticipated... Will you please weight all the bus bars and balancing cables? It will be interesting... :-D
Regardless, there must be a better way than using all those individual connectors. Clearly the future will not look anything like this. I'm thinking the cooling solution may end up looking like a giant laptop CPU cooler. But that's just a paper napkin idea.
i think this pouch format should have shielding or aluminum housing for each cell. It makes more for a more expensive cell but simplifies battery pack design and improves physical protection and cooling.
There is an aluminum plate against each cell for cooling, which is shown and described in the video. There is no reason for more housing around the cells; the polymer stacking frames and the metal battery case do the job.
@@brianb-p6586 much has happened and i've learn more since and the Chevy Bolt has a terrible battery problem and will not be built in till the last week of January 2022. The BYD Blade battery has safer, weaker LFP battery cells but still has shielding for each cell.
@@zodiacfml "shielding for each cell" in the BYD "Blade" battery just means that they are metal-cased prismatic cells, not pouch cells. BYD uses the cell case as structure in the Blade pack design, so one very long cell spans the width of the pack, supporting itself when packed against other cells. It doesn't do any more for cooling than the plates sandwiched in the pouch stack by LG. If prismatic cells are used in the same size as pouch cells - so there is no structural benefit - the extra cell container is just extra weight and cost... which is why that sort of construction is now rare.
High amperage very dangerous. Way back when, a fellow GI leaned over a jamming pod that had a large capacitor bank 600V 25,000 AMP. His hands were on the bare metal housing. He had a metal bead chain lanyard holding his badge, touching his neck. The chain contacted the circuit... his chest was blown out, died instantly. This is how new safety rules are born.
It seems so odd that they made the 1st bay slightly smaller than the other 4. I would have thought making all five identical would have been easier and a little extra battery wouldn't hurt range.
The pack tapers at the front a bit so the vehicle structure can tuck in for the front wheels. Many packs have a few modules of a different size to make the packaging work, and to reach the desired total cell count.
@@MunroLive - I really do like them. I have learned to appreciate the simple build quality and dependability of my ICE powered pickup so very much over all of the electronic and plastic electric vehicles currently being produced. Just my honest opinion. I look forward to when EV's really are quality built like some of the older ICE vehicles.
Hey guys! Thanks a lot for another interesting and educational video! About the battery pack and refrigeration system, is it then feasible for you to study the problems in the Bolt leading to the 3 recalls so, now having the similarities found in the Mustang, discern whether or not we may start to find fire risks elevate for the Mustang also through time and volumes?
So, wait, if the Mach-E is using the same batteries as the Bolt, will Mach-E's start lighting on fire soon like the Bolts are today? Are the differences in the battery enough to have fixed the Bolt's problem?
I see a LOT of copper and aluminum thermal management pieces for battery cooling. No wonder the battery pack weighs so much. I can't imagine how much that is costing Ford to produce per pack. Needs to be more efficient, especially in weight.
Genuinely interesting to see, let’s hope Ford have the charge management cracked and haven’t followed GM into the overheating and fire issues they have had/are having.
So, doing a few calculations shows the Mach E battery pack is 10 modules of 30 cells in 10S3P configuration and 2 modules of 24 cells in 8S3P configuration. That's 116S3P overall which means a pack voltage of about 464 volts @ 4v/cell (nearly fully charged) and nominal 417.6 volts @ 3.6v/cell for the majority of the discharge curve. For a 77 Kwh pack (useable energy) that's about 221 watt-hrs per pouch cell. Sorry, just nerding out online.
There are only eight of the 10S3P modules (and yes, two 8S3P modules), so the pack overall is 96S3P (not 116S3P) with a total of 288 cells. That's 267 Wh/cell for 77 kWh, at proportionately lower voltages.
Ben and Sandy are smart guys. Imagine what they'd be like if 20 years ago somebody had told them they were going to be on camera doing videos. I'm sure they would have been practicing and developed presentation skills equal to their analytic skills. The thing is that Sandy might have found it easier to sell his ideas within companies and we wouldn't have him doing this work today.
It seems like every manufacturer except Tesla goes for pouch or prismatic cells. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out in the future, because they are very different approaches with big implications for manufacturing, cooling, and presumably cost.
The MIC Model 3 SR+ uses CATL LFP prismatic cells. Already available in many countries. That LFP battery soon to be available in USA in Model 3 I believe. It is a less energy dense & heavier pack than the equivalent NCA 2170 round cell battery, but is cheaper, safer, uses no cobalt or nickel, has similar performance and LFP chemistry inherently has longer life. That specific chemistry has improved a lot in the last 3 or 4 years and may well take over as the dominant battery type in affordable EVs. Even Tesla's not yet released 4680 battery may end up with a LFP version.
@@adrianleitch6996 - its a good Solution for a RWD Short Range car , but batteries are too Heavy for a Dual Motor or Performance model. those, work better with Nickel cells.
"These cells have been discharged already, that's why we can touch them" That's not why you can touch them. A single cell is only 4 volts fully charged, as long as you don't short the cell or damage it then it's safe enough. A discharged cell still has enough energy to start a fire, so the precautions are the same either way. "We send them out to have it done, we don't have that capability here." That also doesn't make sense, I discharged one of these using a space heater (which is just a 9.8ohm resistor) and a multimeter. If you have 30 bucks you have the space heater, and if you don't already have a multimeter you shouldn't be handling a battery.
Has Munro Live provided any theories and thoughts around the Norway reports that Mach-E EVs are overheating going downhill? How about the various news stories around Mach-E EVs being "Bricked" due to software updates. If the Mach-E uses -- seemingly -- the same LG batteries as the Bolt, shouldn't he address the fire defect that GM is currently managing through? Or is he mainly focused on traditional mechanical engineering / door gap fit and finish? Does Munro still recommend this EV?
IDK about Sandy but I wouldn't want one. As a rule it's not a good idea to be the first to buy a new product. Most honest engineers will secretly agree.
No worries for the machE batteries. The cells are built in Poland in the same factory and inner design than Audi ETron, Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I pace... None of them catched fire. The module construction is similar to the Bolt EV, but the cell is far better constructed.
@@harrychu650 you're right but nothing due to the cells to my understanding. Issue with voltage peaks due to the weak on board charger trying to do 110V -> 800V. No fire in Europe where it did 240V-> 800V but I may be wrong....
I really like the cell design with respect to the thermal management but much like the cooling system, they have way too much copper busbar in there. Like they didnt even attempt to plan a better option...
I think that's all you can do when your packing modules like those. Unless they were designed to be connected corner to corner like a string of 9 volt batteries. I should patent that LoL
Well done, guys! I wonder, why they put the cooling plates at the bottom of the packs. Wouldn't they be more efficient at the top as heat raises and the cold sinks in the pack?
heat isn't a fluid - it doesn't rise or fall. Cold doesn't even exist - it's just the absence of heat. Hot air rises compared to cold air, but the heat transfer in the battery is by conduction (exchange of heat through stationary materials) not convection (movement of heated fluid such as air). Putting the plates on the top wouldn't make any difference to the heat flow.
LG/Chevy just announced a recall for their defectives battery pack design in 207 to 2019 Chevy Bolt. Kia and Hyundai did it last year. Hopefully they resolved the issues with this design.
No worries for the machE batteries. The cells are built in Poland in the same factory and inner design than Audi ETron, Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I pace... None of them catched fire. The module construction is similar to the Bolt EV, but the cell is far better constructed.
The LG Chem battery cells and modules look a lot more expensive to manufacture and assemble than Tesla. Also, GM recalled 69,000 Bolts today for faulty battery packs.
1) They're not more expensive 2) Only the mid 2019 and older cars were recalled, not "69,000" This car f*cked up your $tsla stock price. Doubtful they go up from here and will get pushed into a niche corner within a decade.
There should be a mandated Quench Facility built in for these Batteries not dissimilar to an MRI. Might take the paint off the roof or something but it should be able to self discharge in a safe manner and hold shunted even.
"As they grow older they need a little more space." Yeah, me too.
Yes, even my skull seems larger with age!
I was a little worried that Munro Live would stagnate after the Model Y teardown series wrapped up, but it turns out I just love engineering porn, and this channel is probably the best out there. The insights we get for free from this channel are highly valuable.
It's great but remember that's it's not for free, the RUclips algorithm and therefore Google and so Alphabet have sold your attention to the advertisers which you see on the platform - that's the business model. Munro live is great content but nothing on this platform is free.
@@bluetoad2668 true. But then you can just develop the power to literally ignore all ads
Ben, you're getting a lot more comfortable in front of the camera! Keep up the good work.
Thanks, will do!
7:10 That's not a ribbon cable, it's a flexible PCB
That's what it looks like to me, too.
In the Aero business we used to call them flex tapes.
and its more expensive than a rigid pcb
@@torcek1991 Looks like it's riveted directly to the cell-interconnects with the flexibility taking up tolerances. Not needing connectors at each interconnect probably balances out the cost.
@@ericsandberg3167 it’s amazing how many manufacturing techniques from the aerospace industry they are using to make more efficient EV‘s
Love geeking out with Uncle Sandy and the team. Look forward to every upload! Always learning something new.
Thanks for watching, Zak!
Looking forward to hearing about the new battery tray designed by your team
Industrial design is like cooking " you mix the best of everything " ;-)
It will be Tray Magnifique!
Full stop, watch munro...
Hey, Sandy! Can you go over the differences between pouches and cylinder cells. Things like energy per volume, energy/kg, ability to use as structural component, etc?
Higher energy capacity possible per unit means fewer cells Battery weight can be lower but harder to package cells a way that can provide structural support for a vehicle.
There’s this wonderful new tool on the internet called Google but PS was very kind to answer your question.
Well, Tesla's engineers decided against them - but what do they know?
@@psdaengr911 Ive read the pouch-style cells can swell….not when they were old, but in normal use. Is that true
Watch this video:
www.eevblog.com/2020/10/02/eevblog-1340-new-tesla-4680-battery-cell-explained/
Lovely understatment from Sandy, 'death can ruin your day'
The 52 second intro of the disassembly taking place could easily be extended for many minutes. It's fascinating! Thanks as always, Sandy, Ben and team.
Glad you enjoyed it
Sandy, you have an amazing team! Thank you for making these videos!
Thanks for watching, Freddy!
Thanks Sandy and crew, great breakdown!
With ya Kevin, love ya driving vids...
Our pleasure, Kevin!
@@EVBud69 thanks :) appreciate the support
I agree, that's a pretty good design with a lot less assembly work than a 21700 or 18650 Tesla tray with all the aluminum ribbon cooling paths. Love these videos - you are doing a great job!
Occasional fires a small drawdown?
This can never really be structural, bags are not structural… the case yes but that is extra weight.
Be careful there, Tesla batteries have proven themselves over millions of miles, it's the most critical part of a BEV and it has to be right. My single biggest reason for going with Tesla is the high confidence I have in their tech and the no. 1 part is the battery.
It is noticeable that the assembly of packaged batteries is difficult to automate. It is very difficult to ensure the quality of the assembly of the cells. (Based on the experience of Kona and Bolt)
FORD is using OUTDATED pouch LION cells from the Laptop industry , not ideal.
SANDY says Cylinder LION is Superior.
@@markplott4820
Go and talk to Warren.
That was a Tesla talking point. Packagingwise, they're a nightmare which is why Tesla is going to the much larger cell size
Watch this automated assembly of cells to bus bar sheet: ruclips.net/video/KgN3lVDO_j4/видео.html
@@markplott4820 That's hilarious - the 18650 format of cylindrical cells were taken straight from laptops.
I hit that notification faster than I do my chores.
Cant be that fast then! :p
Me too. I really look forward to the next exciting episode of Munro Live.
Makes Sandy and Ben sound like Batman and Robin 🤣
😂😁
Thats a nicely designed battery pack. Not bad for a first real try by Ford.
Likely an LG design...
Awesome, Finally the video we've all been waiting for!
Hope you enjoyed it!
Very interesting to see how different manufacturers go about producing a similar product.
Very FEW can copy Tesla, except RIVIAN and LUCID.
all other LEGACY OEM are using OUTDATED Lion pouch battery from the Laptop industry, not ideal
200k subscribers in 1.3 years, Good !
Sandy - You and you team are an engineering university! Thank you!
Mache-E is beginning making me begin to doubt the overall superiority of cylindrical cells, I can't wait to see your best of best design. Hats off to the Ford team and hats off to Munro and associates.
These pouches are def better and as they learn to get good connections and control swelling they will take over. I personally think they should wire them in spirals to cut down on collectors and bus bars.
I deal with a lot of batteries mostly pouch style but also cylindrical cells in industrial equipment. Seen several thermal runaways and caused one myself. I have a healthy fear of anyone or any machine handling pouches. Give me a good strong can any day.
@@videcomp Amen to that.
@@videcomp Perhaps the foam in between the poach cells does more than just compensate for the expansion. kulrtechnology.com/hydra-thermal-runaway-shield/
@@videcompthanks for the reassurance. I’ve seen the trend is to move away from pouches towards cylindrical or prismatic.
Excellent review guys. I am encouraged by what Ford has done on the Mach-E. I hope they can manage to be flexible and act quickly to evolve this and other vehicles. Your comparisons shed so much light on competing designs. I sure hope you sell your upcoming "composite design" I can only imagine how positive that would be for all OEMs. One this is for sure, you are helping advance the development of EV design in a BIG way.
Thanks for the detailed break down. Reviewing to use three of the smaller battery packs to replace the lead batteries in my 96v lead battery powered Wheego.
Glossed over the leak potential in the battery cooling but not with the motor cooling.
I enjoyed the surprise ‘one more thing’!
Given the Bolt was just recalled *again* for battery fires, it may not be a good thing this is so similar to the Bolt's!
Just read a video title today (didn't get around to watch the video yet) and it seems it's a manufacturing defect from LG, so construction method is unrelated to the Bolt fires.
No fires with these cells
The dimples also increase the total surface area of the plate for more heat dissipation.
It was interesting to see that LG's packs are using the same type of cells as I have used in electric model aircraft, while Tesla continues to use individual cells like 18650s.
Hard to remember what life was like b4 discovering Munrow, such fascinating content
Legacy automotive engineers and home shop mechanics the how's and why's of car 2.0 it's all here, free and entertaining. Thank you Mr Munro and crew
This feels a lot like character development, it's very interesting how our opinion about a car changes during this teardowns after the first impressions you get the out of the superficial stuff. A lack of attention to detail, or the opposite, at this level can really shift your impression of the car
That’s a lot of fluid carrying rubber hose, hose clamps & push connectors inside the sealed battery pack. Service nightmare if a clamp or o-ring leaks.
6 connectors for cooling EACH tray ??? color me confused - 6 holes but 1 or 2 quick tube connects. confused.
This is a great channel. Sandy is right on top of the difference in effectiveness of turbulent and laminar flow in heat exchangers.
I got my signed bumper sticker in the mail yesterday. Looking forward to when you guys get the plaid
Thanks for you and your teams hard work on these videos.
Love the explanation with very knowledgeable tesms
Note the compressing bolts in the four corners of the modules and the rigid metal webbing to reinforce the end plates to prevent warping. This provides compression across the pouch cells to keep them in contact with the cold plates and to keep the individual layers internal to each pouch in close contact. Since the anodes swell when charged and shrink when discharged this is why you need the compression of the pouch stack along with the foam to compensate for the swelling / shrinking. Compare this to a cylindrical cell where the jelly roll is built to a certain diameter, placed in the can and then the electrolyte is added and the can capped. The metal cylinder provides the compression force to the jelly roll. The amount of swelling on charge / shrinking on discharge increases as you add more silicon to the carbon of the anode. Adding silicon adds energy capacity to the cell, but if it swells / shrinks too much it can fracture the anode coating and ruin the cell. A delicate balance must be maintained.
Thanks for the Google research
Your statement about swelling is only true for the first 400 charge cycles for state of charge then it changes. After 400 cycles swelling will not change due to state of charge and will become permanent and grow with age. FYI stiffness of jelly roll change drastically with state of charge.
As a member of a Formula Student Powertrain team, this knowledge is GOLD. Looking forward to the "best-of-the-best" battery pack
9:00 After you've separated the cells like that, you're not dealing with voltages high enough to require PPE. I'd still wear basic gloves, but that's only to prevent contaminants.
Yeah. That was a dumbass remark. Even a fully charged module is modest in voltage (around 40V)
Cool to see you again Munro, we missed you last time :) :)
Thanks!
Given GM and Hyundai Motor Group's recent issues with LG Chem pouch cells, I'd be seriously worried about the long term safety of this battery pack. Ford needs to do some serious testing on these cells to make sure they aren't going to cause vehicle fires as they have in Hyundai and Chevy's EVs.
They don't care, it's a tiny portion of their business.
6:48 the orange pcb is a FLEX PCB and they cost more than the common rigid pcb.
Thanks Sandy and crew! I feel like the videos you added lately are of amazing quality and very informative and show how much your channel has grown. I feel like you are educating the tech fans like me to a level that satisfies every expectation and I'm sure you are inspiring tons of people to get an education in engineering, design, and whatnot, this is what matters the most in the end!
Love the channel, but you should consider getting a EE on staff that can talk about the electronics from an electrical perspective. Love the assembly/manufacturing perspective but a skilled electrical/electronics engineer to dig into the EE details.
Hey Ben. Great to see you on camera.
Hey, thanks!
Does anyone else think that Sandy looks more like Albert Einstein every episode?
Don't slam Albert like that. Sandy is a hack! I just watch him to remind me who the dirt bag is that's cheapened American cars to the point of junk. He needs a box of bolts rammed up his back side
He does, but he's not. I wish he'd shave and act his age. He's only 72., my age, and he looks and acts +10 years older.
@@psdaengr911 he thinks young though. Always thinking of ways to innovate. I like that. Long may it continue.
No
@@rzu7120 you need to see an optician 😎
Very enjoyable. I bet you are encouraging many future engineers/ interns/employees to work at your place. Keep up the great work.
If you turn down the intro music 3-5 decibel, I think it'd be perfect!
no. it was perfect. it was loud enough to give the music its full voice.
-- but what was the music used? it was not appropriately attributed in the notes
Are you concerned that Mach-E might face similar battery issues as the Bolt if they are using similar modules?
Nope, the issues might actually come from the bolt management system.
My guess is that the Bolt problem is a bad battery batch from LG. This would explain the failed fixes as GM try every work around that they can to avoid the immense cost of full battery pack replacement. A newer batch of batteries from LG should not have the same problem.
@@johnpublicprofile6261 I am thinking it’s a software or hardware issue with their charging and power control.
Some Mach Es have already gone in for battery replacements. Replacing not repairing. I think Ford either wants whole units back to autopsy, but maybe just doesn't trust dealers to do the repair yet. I'm following this on the Mach E forum. I find it telling that the upcoming Ford Lightning electric pickup is using SK batteries.
@@Miata822 yeah I thought SK was their supplier but they did have that lawsuit so they probably went with LG to get the first batch out.
Glass molded plastic would be a game changer for battery tray, light but strong.
No way. A tenth of the stiffness, a third of the strength. You can redesign it but will need to increase the pack height by at least half an inch. That's either less batteries, or even less room in the cabin...
Steel and aluminum are good materials. Plastic is not for structural applications (and I'm a plastic automotive engineer....)
Looking forward to seeing your Best of the Best Battery Mach-up. Pun intended!
Really enjoy these videos - progress is made in small measures over time.
Would you like fries with that?
(Subtle Hyundai, GM ref?)
Reminds me of how a beehives cools themselves. Only problem is heat rises and there is no way to cool the tops of the cells properly
Heat doesn't rise. Hot air rises, but the heat transfer within a battery like this is by conduction, not by moving air (convection).
This battery construction makes a stack of 18650 or 2170 cells look simple by comparison.
I guess you've never seen a Tesla battery, which has modules (like this) with fluid connections to every module, and layers of structure to hold everything together. There's little difference in complexity.
I would imagine that these companies have patents on almost every aspect of their designs, so it will be interesting if you take the best ideas from each to make a better, cheaper battery. Better factor in some significant royalty costs for that bad boy.
love the design of 'Dimples' it may help with extent the coolant
Also consider open protocol management, repairability and end of life recycling for your design.
Sandy starts talking Adoendra's " we take the best part of everything and combine it to something super " :-)
since when is a flexible PCB less expensive than a FR4 PCB?
A one sided one can be. The process for mass production using continuous fed plastic ribbon requires less material handling than rigid board. Ribbon can be punched and cut to odd shaped with lower cost tooling than rigid board. Flexible boards can connect to directly to other nonplanar components, eliminating added connectors and harnesses.
Sandy and the team, you are inspiring people doing this. Keep it up 👍
Thank you! Will do!
Superb job with the breakdown and explanation Ben
Glad you liked it!
Sandy & Corey, whatever level you need to pull or decal you need to sell to get one of the first Rivian R1T's & Tesla CyberTruck Tri-Motor in a tear-down comparison will blow your channel up! I have reservations on both, plus the Lightning. Love what your team is doing! Thank you
Best automotive show. Period. Munro over Clarkson any time.
we visited there last Oct. & it was awesome.. i've ordered the tri motor fsd ct & i can't wait for it to get here!! I may buy the S or the Y in the meantime..i got lots of solar & back up battery system as well.
further mention of appreciation towards snap together plastic parts left me wondering about plastic degradation over years.
Plastic is mPPO if it's like the Bolt. No worries as this thing will only see 60 degrees C max.... 0 thermal degradation, no UV exposure... Mild stresses.
What does Ford/LG use for their terminating connectors of the module ribbon cable?
I need to get hold of 4 of the male connectors.
Thanks
Forgot to mention question is in context to the 10S3P modules.
Lightening round, coming soon to Munro Live!
I know it’s bad habit to comment without watching the whole thing, but your intro music rocks & so happy Sandy s back!
Should I do the Correy thing? 😂😂😂. Thanks for keeping it real Sandy!
So it's basically a larger Bolt design. Far too many parts, assemblies... the MEB pack looks simpler with its extruded aluminum modules. However, these extruded modules have one additional layer of thermally conductive gap filler, an inner insulation that's coated, and welded end caps making it tough to disassemble. So it's a trade off, clearly!
amazing, you can get a 101 course on manufacturing something as state-of-the-art at car batteries, right on your closest screen. I only hope this helps bring home manufacturing to my city, state and country. Watch and learn young geniuses!
I'm curious - are there any built-in protection features at the cell level? Overcurrent, over/under-voltage? Or is that redundant when you have a sophisticated BMS managing the whole pack?
Great question, my understanding is that different cells can degrade at different rate, so they need smart charging down to the cell level. But I have no idea if anybody actually does that.
Same concern since the battery is similar to Chevy Bolt and the multiple Bolt fire caused by charging. The Bolts that had battery fire issues were from 2019 and earlier so let's hope Ford is up to sniff with their software and hardware .
Cell voltage is always the same for the ones in parallel. So never at a single cell level but by rows of 2 here on these modules. You cannot charge the cells independantly. Current flows in series from the tabs, and only time with deep discharge or high charge can rebalance things. The BMS can track this, but cannot correct it independantly. Just imagine a bath tub with multiple cavities that have slightly different levels. It's only when you reach the top that you can balance all cavities...
Just like every other EV, the BMS handles the cell at the lowest parallel group level; individual cells in a group function as a single larger cell.
Man another great Friday with Munro Live! I think it's kinda nice the whole battery tray could be disassembled in sections, Great Channel, Yes Ford is Taking Notes
Very informative video as always, thanks!
The cooling system looks better than anticipated... Will you please weight all the bus bars and balancing cables? It will be interesting... :-D
@w4csc stop talking nonsense, its not a super hot/high pressure piping system compared to ICE cooling.
Regardless, there must be a better way than using all those individual connectors. Clearly the future will not look anything like this. I'm thinking the cooling solution may end up looking like a giant laptop CPU cooler. But that's just a paper napkin idea.
@@mntbighker by using things like gallium the electronic may be made way safer and reliable
Gallium? Are you an idiot or a PhD?
i think this pouch format should have shielding or aluminum housing for each cell. It makes more for a more expensive cell but simplifies battery pack design and improves physical protection and cooling.
There is an aluminum plate against each cell for cooling, which is shown and described in the video. There is no reason for more housing around the cells; the polymer stacking frames and the metal battery case do the job.
@@brianb-p6586 much has happened and i've learn more since and the Chevy Bolt has a terrible battery problem and will not be built in till the last week of January 2022. The BYD Blade battery has safer, weaker LFP battery cells but still has shielding for each cell.
@@zodiacfml "shielding for each cell" in the BYD "Blade" battery just means that they are metal-cased prismatic cells, not pouch cells. BYD uses the cell case as structure in the Blade pack design, so one very long cell spans the width of the pack, supporting itself when packed against other cells. It doesn't do any more for cooling than the plates sandwiched in the pouch stack by LG. If prismatic cells are used in the same size as pouch cells - so there is no structural benefit - the extra cell container is just extra weight and cost... which is why that sort of construction is now rare.
Love this channel. The media is dead asleep. The future is here.
High amperage very dangerous. Way back when, a fellow GI leaned over a jamming pod that had a large capacitor bank 600V 25,000 AMP. His hands were on the bare metal housing. He had a metal bead chain lanyard holding his badge, touching his neck. The chain contacted the circuit... his chest was blown out, died instantly. This is how new safety rules are born.
As always a great job !!
Thank you so much 😀
It seems like tesla with the 4680 cells and cooling system will be a really good way in efficiency standpoint. PS great video
Keep em coming guys, loving the frequent uploads 👌👌🙏
More to come!
Best Subscribe Pitch Ever, "Save me from Corey's Wrath"! But we all know that Corey can be appeased with a bottle of Beer!
It seems so odd that they made the 1st bay slightly smaller than the other 4. I would have thought making all five identical would have been easier and a little extra battery wouldn't hurt range.
And there's empty space in that bay as well
The pack tapers at the front a bit so the vehicle structure can tuck in for the front wheels. Many packs have a few modules of a different size to make the packaging work, and to reach the desired total cell count.
Can't wait to see this battery! Wow.
Thank you for these videos.
Glad you like them!
@@MunroLive - I really do like them. I have learned to appreciate the simple build quality and dependability of my ICE powered pickup so very much over all of the electronic and plastic electric vehicles currently being produced. Just my honest opinion. I look forward to when EV's really are quality built like some of the older ICE vehicles.
Hey guys!
Thanks a lot for another interesting and educational video!
About the battery pack and refrigeration system, is it then feasible for you to study the problems in the Bolt leading to the 3 recalls so, now having the similarities found in the Mustang, discern whether or not we may start to find fire risks elevate for the Mustang also through time and volumes?
So, wait, if the Mach-E is using the same batteries as the Bolt, will Mach-E's start lighting on fire soon like the Bolts are today? Are the differences in the battery enough to have fixed the Bolt's problem?
Wow I like that cooling system a lot more than the old Tesla packs. I think my favorite thing was they eliminated the fastener holding the plate down.
I see a LOT of copper and aluminum thermal management pieces for battery cooling. No wonder the battery pack weighs so much. I can't imagine how much that is costing Ford to produce per pack. Needs to be more efficient, especially in weight.
There are no copper thermal management components - the copper is all for electrical connections.
Genuinely interesting to see, let’s hope Ford have the charge management cracked and haven’t followed GM into the overheating and fire issues they have had/are having.
So, doing a few calculations shows the Mach E battery pack is 10 modules of 30 cells in 10S3P configuration and 2 modules of 24 cells in 8S3P configuration. That's 116S3P overall which means a pack voltage of about 464 volts @ 4v/cell (nearly fully charged) and nominal 417.6 volts @ 3.6v/cell for the majority of the discharge curve. For a 77 Kwh pack (useable energy) that's about 221 watt-hrs per pouch cell. Sorry, just nerding out online.
There are only eight of the 10S3P modules (and yes, two 8S3P modules), so the pack overall is 96S3P (not 116S3P) with a total of 288 cells. That's 267 Wh/cell for 77 kWh, at proportionately lower voltages.
Ben and Sandy are smart guys. Imagine what they'd be like if 20 years ago somebody had told them they were going to be on camera doing videos. I'm sure they would have been practicing and developed presentation skills equal to their analytic skills. The thing is that Sandy might have found it easier to sell his ideas within companies and we wouldn't have him doing this work today.
It seems like every manufacturer except Tesla goes for pouch or prismatic cells. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out in the future, because they are very different approaches with big implications for manufacturing, cooling, and presumably cost.
if Pouch or Prismatic cell = DEAD LAST, which is why RIVIAN can get 400 miles on 2170, and LUCID is also using 2170.
The MIC Model 3 SR+ uses CATL LFP prismatic cells. Already available in many countries. That LFP battery soon to be available in USA in Model 3 I believe. It is a less energy dense & heavier pack than the equivalent NCA 2170 round cell battery, but is cheaper, safer, uses no cobalt or nickel, has similar performance and LFP chemistry inherently has longer life. That specific chemistry has improved a lot in the last 3 or 4 years and may well take over as the dominant battery type in affordable EVs. Even Tesla's not yet released 4680 battery may end up with a LFP version.
@@adrianleitch6996 - its a good Solution for a RWD Short Range car , but batteries are too Heavy for a Dual Motor or Performance model.
those, work better with Nickel cells.
thanks, folks.
"These cells have been discharged already, that's why we can touch them"
That's not why you can touch them. A single cell is only 4 volts fully charged, as long as you don't short the cell or damage it then it's safe enough. A discharged cell still has enough energy to start a fire, so the precautions are the same either way.
"We send them out to have it done, we don't have that capability here."
That also doesn't make sense, I discharged one of these using a space heater (which is just a 9.8ohm resistor) and a multimeter. If you have 30 bucks you have the space heater, and if you don't already have a multimeter you shouldn't be handling a battery.
Has Munro Live provided any theories and thoughts around the Norway reports that Mach-E EVs are overheating going downhill? How about the various news stories around Mach-E EVs being "Bricked" due to software updates. If the Mach-E uses -- seemingly -- the same LG batteries as the Bolt, shouldn't he address the fire defect that GM is currently managing through? Or is he mainly focused on traditional mechanical engineering / door gap fit and finish?
Does Munro still recommend this EV?
IDK about Sandy but I wouldn't want one. As a rule it's not a good idea to be the first to buy a new product. Most honest engineers will secretly agree.
No worries for the machE batteries. The cells are built in Poland in the same factory and inner design than Audi ETron, Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I pace... None of them catched fire.
The module construction is similar to the Bolt EV, but the cell is far better constructed.
@@harrychu650 you're right but nothing due to the cells to my understanding. Issue with voltage peaks due to the weak on board charger trying to do 110V -> 800V. No fire in Europe where it did 240V-> 800V but I may be wrong....
Friday satisfaction and I didn't lift a finger .
I really like the cell design with respect to the thermal management but much like the cooling system, they have way too much copper busbar in there. Like they didnt even attempt to plan a better option...
I think that's all you can do when your packing modules like those. Unless they were designed to be connected corner to corner like a string of 9 volt batteries. I should patent that LoL
Yep i agree there's too much. However, need to be careful with copper section to avoid heating by joule effect with quite some amperage
Well done, guys! I wonder, why they put the cooling plates at the bottom of the packs. Wouldn't they be more efficient at the top as heat raises and the cold sinks in the pack?
heat isn't a fluid - it doesn't rise or fall. Cold doesn't even exist - it's just the absence of heat. Hot air rises compared to cold air, but the heat transfer in the battery is by conduction (exchange of heat through stationary materials) not convection (movement of heated fluid such as air). Putting the plates on the top wouldn't make any difference to the heat flow.
Ford put a lot of thought into making this car, and also how easy their dealers can fix/service it.
LG/Chevy just announced a recall for their defectives battery pack design in 207 to 2019 Chevy Bolt. Kia and Hyundai did it last year.
Hopefully they resolved the issues with this design.
No worries for the machE batteries. The cells are built in Poland in the same factory and inner design than Audi ETron, Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I pace... None of them catched fire.
The module construction is similar to the Bolt EV, but the cell is far better constructed.
The LG Chem battery cells and modules look a lot more expensive to manufacture and assemble than Tesla. Also, GM recalled 69,000 Bolts today for faulty battery packs.
More customers are starting to ask for a buyback
1) They're not more expensive
2) Only the mid 2019 and older cars were recalled, not "69,000"
This car f*cked up your $tsla stock price. Doubtful they go up from here and will get pushed into a niche corner within a decade.
There should be a mandated Quench Facility built in for these Batteries not dissimilar to an MRI. Might take the paint off the roof or something but it should be able to self discharge in a safe manner and hold shunted even.
It costs $100,000 to fuel up an MRI. You can buy two of these cars for just the cost of cold starting an MRI.