As an avid Symbolic World and Fr. Josiah listener, I believe after watching this video icon veneration finally clicked. I now see meditating on the OT Saints, Apostles , and the Theotokos in the Word and venerating the icons are both the same practice. If I meditate on passages of the Bible, it doesn’t follow that I’m committing idolatry. All passages point to Christ. All icons point to Christ.
This is excellent. Thanks Jonah. I feel like Sean Luke loves this kind of thing- sacramental signification, or built-in teleology in icons/images is so good.
This was really good, my friend! I also think that we in the West - myself included - are unnaturally averse to kissing in general, despite the apostolic exhortation to "greet one another with a holy kiss." If all Christians kept this command with their brethren on earth, kissing the icons would only serve to strengthen the communion of saints with our brethren in heaven, which is how these blessed and humble saints want to greet us sinners.
Fully agreed. I honestly think that passage is an implicit exhortation to icon veneration since we must, in some real sense, recognize the communion of the saints as never dying, but always present in Christ to us. Thus, if we are exhorted to venerate one another as icons, why would we refrain from doing so toward the saints who have completed the race?
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe." I've found iconography helpful to answer this prayer from Ephesians 1 in my life.
🎵🎵 "No one could describe the Word of the Father, But when He took flesh from thee, Oh, Theotokos, He accepted to be described, And restored the fallen image to its former place, By uniting it to Divine Beauty. We accept, we accept and proclaim Our salvation in word and images! " Hymn from the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy.🎵🎵
Jonah, that is for me the very best presentation of why i icons are important that i have ever heard! And it also carries in it the Faith, and the Hope, and the Love that is a part of the veneration of icons as images of those we love who love us.. BEAUTIFULLY presented. ☦📿💝📿☦
It's weird how effortlessly conservative evangelical Americans venerate the flag, the Founding Fathers, and our veterans. I'm not even critical of it, these deserve our veneration. But the moment it is an icon, or a crucifix, or the saints, suddenly it becomes idolatry. "Ah, but," the objector says, "it's not really the same." Picture this: It is the Fourth of July. A festive mood fills the morning air as you sit in a folding chair on a sidewalk beside hundreds of fellow spectators. You wait in anticipation as the parade approaches up Main Street. First, a line of officers on horseback carry American flags. Behind them, a band plays the star-spangled banner. Behind them a dancing troop whirls in red white and blue skirts, waving banners and twirling streamers. And then, a parade float rolls by, carrying painted portraits of the founding fathers. Behind them comes another float, with a portrait of a local veteran who fell in the line of duty. Now imagine a similar scene, but replace all of the patriotic imagery with Christian religious imagery. A procession carries a cross forward. Behind them comes singers, followed by a float bearing icons of saints. Presented with one or the other of these two scenes, the average American evangelical would view one as patriotic, and the other would to them smack of idolatry. Bringing this hypocrisy up in conversation could easily be met with accusations of trying to justify idolatry. The Puritan influence is so thoroughly leavened in our culture that we are conditioned from birth with a blind spot in this particular area. And if anyone reads all of that and thinks, "well then to heck with parades," go read Esther Chapter 6. "Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delights to honor." If it is sinful to venerate that which is not God, then it was sinful for Mordecai to receive the honor he received, which the story of Esther clearly portrays in a positive light.
Good video. My problem with Nicea 2 is not iconography per se. I agree that the Incarnation makes iconography eminently appropriate-the divine has taken humanity; the invisible has become visible; the holy has sanctified the mundane. My problem with the council is twofold: (1) the historical claim that veneration of icons had been the universal and historical practice of the church from the beginning; and (2) it anathematizes those who refuse to venerate them. So I guess my view of iconography would probably be closer to that of the Council of Frankfurt, though I have no personal problem showing appropriate respect to sacred images.
Dear 'doubting' ..., i haven't seen this video yet. Got interested in comments. My inadequate response is in 2 parts, and i know that others could write better than i but here goes: 1. As i understand them, the ideas of anathemas are meant to alert someone to see that they are wrong...not to destroy them.. So the idea of the anathema here, as i best understand it, would be to say that not accepting icons would be a way to not accept the fullness of the Faith. It surely doesn't mean that someone's head is forced to kiss them.. 2. Please find the story of the ICON NOT MADE WITH HANDS Feast Day, August 16.. I first read about it in the (BEAUTIFUL) " PROLOGUE OF OHRID", complied by St. Nicholai Velimirovich..Who also added scriptures readings, homilies, and reflections along with the lives of the saints honored on the Church calendar whom he chose to write about.. I cannot overstate the value of work. But there are Orthodox sites such as the OCA where you can read about it. This icon was THE VERY FIRST ICON. It was miraculously made by JESUS HIMSELF when He held a previously-folded cloth to HIS OWN FACE and reproduced HIS OWN IMAGE on it. A servant of Prince Abgar/Abgarus of Edessa (in Syria?) had found Him and given Him a letter from his master in which the prince asked Jesus to allow his servant to paint HISS portrait.. Because, Prince Abgar had leprosy..and he told Jesus that he was convinced that he could be healed if he saw HIS FACE. JESUS told the servant that HE could not stop because HE was on HIS way to Jerusalem.. HE told the servant that the prince should hold the image to himself and he would be healed, but not entirely. But that in due time, HE would send someone to him and teach him.. AND HE DID just that after Pentecost. Prince Abgar WAS partially healed. And, then, one of those who had followed Jesus and who was from Edessa was sent to teach the prince. Prince Abgar was baptized and was completely healed. His family and household were baptized.. As eventually was his whole city.. He had that miracle-working icon mounted on a board and covered with precious metals, pearls,.and stones and had it mounted over the gates of his city.. Below it he had had written: "OH, LORD, JESUS CHRIST, NO ONE WHO TRUSTS IN YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED! " It became a destination point for early Christians to see what Jesus looked like. As i understand it, this story was used at the 7th Ecumenical Council to help affirm/confirm the veneration of Holy icons.. ONE MORE THING: That PAGAN prince wrote Jesus that he knew that there were those who wanted to kill Him. But, said the Prince, he had a lovely city. And that it was big enough for both of them.. And he offered JESUS a place of sanctuary i under his protection if HE wished to live there. Even as Jesus was on HIS Way to die in Jerusalem.. ☦📿💝📿☦
Nicea II was also summoned by a very wicked woman. Highly doubt she was regenerate. Nicea II is on shaky ground and so is the whole idea of icon veneration.
@@KnightFelthere is an Orthodox channel named PATRISTIX, which just an hour ago released a new video entitled Kassia the Hymnographer (Kassiani). I have been thinking about her and the Empress St. Theodora ever since i read your comment last night. Perhaps you might like to watch this lovely video..
Solid stuff--don't worry, we won't get tired of discussing iconography. This is at the heart of why many have embraced the Sacramental worldview.
As an avid Symbolic World and Fr. Josiah listener, I believe after watching this video icon veneration finally clicked.
I now see meditating on the OT Saints, Apostles , and the Theotokos in the Word and venerating the icons are both the same practice.
If I meditate on passages of the Bible, it doesn’t follow that I’m committing idolatry. All passages point to Christ. All icons point to Christ.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
You got it. That's exactly it.
Please KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS - It’s needed for us Christians.
Yes it definitely is
This is FANTASTIC! Thank you, Jonah!
What a great explanation! Thank you.
This is excellent. Thanks Jonah. I feel like Sean Luke loves this kind of thing- sacramental signification, or built-in teleology in icons/images is so good.
Yes! Sean and I see this issue quite similarly, I think. Thanks for the comment!
This was really good, my friend! I also think that we in the West - myself included - are unnaturally averse to kissing in general, despite the apostolic exhortation to "greet one another with a holy kiss." If all Christians kept this command with their brethren on earth, kissing the icons would only serve to strengthen the communion of saints with our brethren in heaven, which is how these blessed and humble saints want to greet us sinners.
Fully agreed. I honestly think that passage is an implicit exhortation to icon veneration since we must, in some real sense, recognize the communion of the saints as never dying, but always present in Christ to us. Thus, if we are exhorted to venerate one another as icons, why would we refrain from doing so toward the saints who have completed the race?
@@merecatholicitydo you kiss icons Jonah?
@@Yan-Shcherbyna Yes.
@@merecatholicity only Jesus, or Mary and the saints also?
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe."
I've found iconography helpful to answer this prayer from Ephesians 1 in my life.
Yes, indeed!
🎵🎵 "No one could describe the Word of the Father, But when He took flesh from thee, Oh, Theotokos, He accepted to be described, And restored the fallen image to its former place, By uniting it to Divine Beauty.
We accept, we accept and proclaim
Our salvation in word and images! "
Hymn from the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy.🎵🎵
Jonah, that is for me the very best presentation of why i icons are important that i have ever heard!
And it also carries in it the Faith, and the Hope, and the Love that is a part of the veneration of icons as images of those we love who love us..
BEAUTIFULLY presented.
☦📿💝📿☦
It's weird how effortlessly conservative evangelical Americans venerate the flag, the Founding Fathers, and our veterans. I'm not even critical of it, these deserve our veneration. But the moment it is an icon, or a crucifix, or the saints, suddenly it becomes idolatry. "Ah, but," the objector says, "it's not really the same." Picture this:
It is the Fourth of July. A festive mood fills the morning air as you sit in a folding chair on a sidewalk beside hundreds of fellow spectators. You wait in anticipation as the parade approaches up Main Street. First, a line of officers on horseback carry American flags. Behind them, a band plays the star-spangled banner. Behind them a dancing troop whirls in red white and blue skirts, waving banners and twirling streamers. And then, a parade float rolls by, carrying painted portraits of the founding fathers. Behind them comes another float, with a portrait of a local veteran who fell in the line of duty.
Now imagine a similar scene, but replace all of the patriotic imagery with Christian religious imagery. A procession carries a cross forward. Behind them comes singers, followed by a float bearing icons of saints.
Presented with one or the other of these two scenes, the average American evangelical would view one as patriotic, and the other would to them smack of idolatry. Bringing this hypocrisy up in conversation could easily be met with accusations of trying to justify idolatry. The Puritan influence is so thoroughly leavened in our culture that we are conditioned from birth with a blind spot in this particular area.
And if anyone reads all of that and thinks, "well then to heck with parades," go read Esther Chapter 6. "Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delights to honor." If it is sinful to venerate that which is not God, then it was sinful for Mordecai to receive the honor he received, which the story of Esther clearly portrays in a positive light.
LETS LET SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE PERCIEVE THE IMAGES AND RELAY THE MESSAGES OF THE ICONOGRAPHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TRY NOT TO LAUGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good video.
My problem with Nicea 2 is not iconography per se. I agree that the Incarnation makes iconography eminently appropriate-the divine has taken humanity; the invisible has become visible; the holy has sanctified the mundane. My problem with the council is twofold: (1) the historical claim that veneration of icons had been the universal and historical practice of the church from the beginning; and (2) it anathematizes those who refuse to venerate them. So I guess my view of iconography would probably be closer to that of the Council of Frankfurt, though I have no personal problem showing appropriate respect to sacred images.
Dear 'doubting' ..., i haven't seen this video yet. Got interested in comments.
My inadequate response is in 2 parts, and i know that others could write better than i but here goes:
1. As i understand them, the ideas of anathemas are meant to alert someone to see that they are wrong...not to destroy them..
So the idea of the anathema here, as i best understand it, would be to say that not accepting icons would be a way to not accept the fullness of the Faith.
It surely doesn't mean that someone's head is forced to kiss them..
2. Please find the story of the ICON NOT MADE WITH HANDS Feast Day, August 16..
I first read about it in the (BEAUTIFUL) " PROLOGUE OF OHRID", complied by St. Nicholai Velimirovich..Who also added scriptures readings, homilies, and reflections along with the lives of the saints honored on the Church calendar whom he chose to write about..
I cannot overstate the value of work.
But there are Orthodox sites such as the OCA where you can read about it.
This icon was THE VERY FIRST ICON. It was miraculously made by JESUS HIMSELF when He held a previously-folded cloth to HIS OWN FACE and reproduced HIS OWN IMAGE on it.
A servant of Prince Abgar/Abgarus of Edessa (in Syria?) had found Him and given Him a letter from his master in which the prince asked Jesus to allow his servant to paint HISS portrait..
Because, Prince Abgar had leprosy..and he told Jesus that he was convinced that he could be healed if he saw HIS FACE.
JESUS told the servant that HE could not stop because HE was on HIS way to Jerusalem..
HE told the servant that the prince should hold the image to himself and he would be healed, but not entirely.
But that in due time, HE would send someone to him and teach him..
AND HE DID just that after Pentecost.
Prince Abgar WAS partially healed.
And, then, one of those who had followed Jesus and who was from Edessa was sent to teach the prince.
Prince Abgar was baptized and was completely healed.
His family and household were baptized..
As eventually was his whole city..
He had that miracle-working icon mounted on a board and covered with precious metals, pearls,.and stones and had it mounted over the gates of his city..
Below it he had had written:
"OH, LORD, JESUS CHRIST, NO ONE WHO TRUSTS IN YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED! "
It became a destination point for early Christians to see what Jesus looked like.
As i understand it, this story was used at the 7th Ecumenical Council to help affirm/confirm the veneration of Holy icons..
ONE MORE THING:
That PAGAN prince wrote Jesus that he knew that there were those who wanted to kill Him.
But, said the Prince, he had a lovely city. And that it was big enough for both of them..
And he offered JESUS a place of sanctuary i under his protection if HE wished to live there.
Even as Jesus was on HIS Way to die in Jerusalem..
☦📿💝📿☦
Nicea II was also summoned by a very wicked woman. Highly doubt she was regenerate. Nicea II is on shaky ground and so is the whole idea of icon veneration.
@@KnightFelthere is an Orthodox channel named PATRISTIX, which just an hour ago released a new video entitled Kassia the Hymnographer (Kassiani).
I have been thinking about her and the Empress St. Theodora ever since i read your comment last night.
Perhaps you might like to watch this lovely video..
Is making God the Son in our own Imagine breaking the send commandment?
What is around your neck
Celtic cross necklace made out of wooden beads.
@@merecatholicity where can I get one?
@@Brother-Martin Legacy Icons is where I got mine.
THIS IS THE GREATEST VIDEO OF THE DAY. HERE IS A SMART YOUNG MAN!