As an LCMS, I can confirm this. However, there are differences in how we practice the faith. I honestly wouldn't mind to slightly modify it to be more catholic.
Calvin didn’t teach the Calvinistic view of the Eucharist… he always rested on the mystical Union and we still feed on Jesus’ two natures. Ronald Wallace’s book “Calvin’s doctrines on the word and sacrament” is eye opening.
I don’t want to throw stones, but I have a feeling a lot of people have expected more doctrinal unity than they actually get with Rome. We have super-liberal boomer parishes near us, with goofy liturgical dance numbers, and a wave of charismatic woo-woo at another. The LCMS? On paper, unified. In reality, it’s a mess of dying Seminex wannabes, modern praise music that seem embarrassed to be Lutheran, boomer Jesus people congregations, and some High Church Lutherans. Everyone has issues. I think in the G-3 we are working on it, but it’s just going to take some time. In the meantime, the grass is not greener.
As an LCMS, I agree. I consider myself in between a lutheran and an anglican. I'd love to take the LCMS and slightly modify it to make it more catholic.
@@legacyandlegend I completely agree. I think there are some folks doing some good work right now in that regard, but they are fighting some strong headwinds with a whole generation that hasn’t retired yet.
@@Zhought3391 True. I like how anglicans have 7 sacraments. Sacraments of the church and of the gospel. I also like anglican's episcopal apostolic succession. That would make us much more like the early church.
@Zhought3391 I'd also like to have apocryphal readings in the liturgy like anglicans do. Despite not being considered part of the canon, those books are very useful for edification and teaching. Basically, make the LCMS more like anglicans, but without the diversity and female ordination. That would be about the closest we can get to the church Christ established as possible, in my opinion. I'd even be open to allowing alcoholics and those who choose not to drink alcohol the option of non alcoholic wine in every LCMS church for the eucharist. Not grape juice, though. That isn't wine and didn't exist 2000 years ago. What do you think?
@@legacyandlegend I think there’s been a lot of discussion over the type and purity of wine used-but I know it has varied greatly in different places over time. I would not do grape juice, as it is not the same. Outside of that, yes the Deutero-Canonical books are extremely useful! And there are Anglicans who do not have female ordination-check out groups like the G-3 or Continuing Anglicans, including the ACC, APA, and ACA (all of which are unifying once again after years). That might give you some great ideas, and sounds like a lot of what you might be after!
How can you compare differing opinions on Vatican 2 and it’s consequences or whether or not the western rite is a good thing within the Orthodox Church to disagreeing about the Eucharist and female priests? Liturgical diversity (or disagreements over liturgical diversity) is not the same as doctrinal disunity.
I would say we almost chose to be Anglican. We visited a few of them. They were all vastly different, in belief and in service. Some had female priests, and some didn’t. We ultimately decided that we wanted to go to Orthodoxy. I think it’s a problem that if you say you are Anglican to someone, they would assume you are fine with gay marriage and female priests based on other Anglican churches.
@@merecatholicity but isn’t the statement by the College of Bishops in 2017 the crux of the issue? Had they accepted their duty in that moment, there would be absolutely no confusion. Instead, their desire to keep the liberals in house caused downstream effects that harm Anglicanism as a whole.
I really think the issues over which there is division within Anglicanism are far more significant than what we see in RCC or the EO … which together are like 65% of all Christians on the planet. (So, if I’m correct, then Anglicanism does in fact exhibit more disunity than most other Christians). No one in the RCC is teaching the Eucharist is merely a symbol (though individual lay believers may erroneously hold that opinion). No one in the EO is teaching bishops are not at the core of the Church ( “ “). The areas of contention you highlighted in this talk are of a real magnitude. I’ve been investigating Anglo-Catholicism for a bit now (very much appreciate your channel!) and this does give me pause.
As one who has been Anglican for about 18-19 years now, I hear you. I was confirmed in the ACC but joined a new formed local ACNA parish about 14 years ago. I belong to a traditional parish that leans Anglo-Catholic, but what concerns me the most is that the province keeps kicking the WO can down the road rather than decisively dealing with it.
@@doubtingthomas9117 thanks for sharing! I was under the impression the ACNA allows the jurisdictions that comprise it to make their own decisions about WO, so there is a spectrum of whether or not it is practiced, and that was simply how they operate - are you suggesting the ACNA as a whole may uniformly go one way or the other on this issue? (But are kicking the can down the road?)
@@OMNIBUBB each diocese can make its own decision on the issue (mine does not ordain women) but I think this is not a proper long term solution to the problem.
Rome is nearing schism over the Papacy. Orthodoxy is ethnically divided. Liberalism encroaches on all sides. All churches have their besetting sins. Repentance is the path forward, not blame-shifting. That is ultimately my point.
@@doubtingthomas9117 As someone who by grace has good inside information, I can assure you the issue is not simply being kicked down the road. Though it may look like that, I promise you our orthodox bishops are working hard and believe the issue will eventually be resolved. We must trust them and the Holy Spirit.
I would have liked to see you address confessional Lutherans. From what I've seen, they posses the strongest doctrinal unity out of all denominations.
So it seems
As an LCMS, I can confirm this. However, there are differences in how we practice the faith. I honestly wouldn't mind to slightly modify it to be more catholic.
Great insights once again. Thank you and may God continue to bless you with wisdom, humility and a desire for substantive unity.
Absolutely not ! They used to see diverse interpretations as a positive. It has proven to be not so.
Calvin didn’t teach the Calvinistic view of the Eucharist… he always rested on the mystical Union and we still feed on Jesus’ two natures. Ronald Wallace’s book “Calvin’s doctrines on the word and sacrament” is eye opening.
I don’t want to throw stones, but I have a feeling a lot of people have expected more doctrinal unity than they actually get with Rome. We have super-liberal boomer parishes near us, with goofy liturgical dance numbers, and a wave of charismatic woo-woo at another.
The LCMS? On paper, unified. In reality, it’s a mess of dying Seminex wannabes, modern praise music that seem embarrassed to be Lutheran, boomer Jesus people congregations, and some High Church Lutherans.
Everyone has issues. I think in the G-3 we are working on it, but it’s just going to take some time. In the meantime, the grass is not greener.
As an LCMS, I agree. I consider myself in between a lutheran and an anglican. I'd love to take the LCMS and slightly modify it to make it more catholic.
@@legacyandlegend I completely agree. I think there are some folks doing some good work right now in that regard, but they are fighting some strong headwinds with a whole generation that hasn’t retired yet.
@@Zhought3391 True. I like how anglicans have 7 sacraments. Sacraments of the church and of the gospel. I also like anglican's episcopal apostolic succession. That would make us much more like the early church.
@Zhought3391 I'd also like to have apocryphal readings in the liturgy like anglicans do. Despite not being considered part of the canon, those books are very useful for edification and teaching. Basically, make the LCMS more like anglicans, but without the diversity and female ordination. That would be about the closest we can get to the church Christ established as possible, in my opinion. I'd even be open to allowing alcoholics and those who choose not to drink alcohol the option of non alcoholic wine in every LCMS church for the eucharist. Not grape juice, though. That isn't wine and didn't exist 2000 years ago. What do you think?
@@legacyandlegend I think there’s been a lot of discussion over the type and purity of wine used-but I know it has varied greatly in different places over time. I would not do grape juice, as it is not the same.
Outside of that, yes the Deutero-Canonical books are extremely useful! And there are Anglicans who do not have female ordination-check out groups like the G-3 or Continuing Anglicans, including the ACC, APA, and ACA (all of which are unifying once again after years). That might give you some great ideas, and sounds like a lot of what you might be after!
How can you compare differing opinions on Vatican 2 and it’s consequences or whether or not the western rite is a good thing within the Orthodox Church to disagreeing about the Eucharist and female priests? Liturgical diversity (or disagreements over liturgical diversity) is not the same as doctrinal disunity.
I would say we almost chose to be Anglican. We visited a few of them. They were all vastly different, in belief and in service. Some had female priests, and some didn’t. We ultimately decided that we wanted to go to Orthodoxy. I think it’s a problem that if you say you are Anglican to someone, they would assume you are fine with gay marriage and female priests based on other Anglican churches.
The liberal Anglican churches are an extremely small portion of Anglicanism. The majority (3/4's) are orthodox.
@@merecatholicity but isn’t the statement by the College of Bishops in 2017 the crux of the issue? Had they accepted their duty in that moment, there would be absolutely no confusion. Instead, their desire to keep the liberals in house caused downstream effects that harm Anglicanism as a whole.
I really think the issues over which there is division within Anglicanism are far more significant than what we see in RCC or the EO … which together are like 65% of all Christians on the planet. (So, if I’m correct, then Anglicanism does in fact exhibit more disunity than most other Christians). No one in the RCC is teaching the Eucharist is merely a symbol (though individual lay believers may erroneously hold that opinion). No one in the EO is teaching bishops are not at the core of the Church ( “ “). The areas of contention you highlighted in this talk are of a real magnitude. I’ve been investigating Anglo-Catholicism for a bit now (very much appreciate your channel!) and this does give me pause.
As one who has been Anglican for about 18-19 years now, I hear you. I was confirmed in the ACC but joined a new formed local ACNA parish about 14 years ago. I belong to a traditional parish that leans Anglo-Catholic, but what concerns me the most is that the province keeps kicking the WO can down the road rather than decisively dealing with it.
@@doubtingthomas9117 thanks for sharing! I was under the impression the ACNA allows the jurisdictions that comprise it to make their own decisions about WO, so there is a spectrum of whether or not it is practiced, and that was simply how they operate - are you suggesting the ACNA as a whole may uniformly go one way or the other on this issue? (But are kicking the can down the road?)
@@OMNIBUBB each diocese can make its own decision on the issue (mine does not ordain women) but I think this is not a proper long term solution to the problem.
Rome is nearing schism over the Papacy. Orthodoxy is ethnically divided. Liberalism encroaches on all sides. All churches have their besetting sins. Repentance is the path forward, not blame-shifting. That is ultimately my point.
@@doubtingthomas9117 As someone who by grace has good inside information, I can assure you the issue is not simply being kicked down the road. Though it may look like that, I promise you our orthodox bishops are working hard and believe the issue will eventually be resolved. We must trust them and the Holy Spirit.
No.
Negatory