Earthling Ed - The Intricacies of Veganism | Cosmic Skeptic Podcast #9
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2019
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-------------------------------------VIDEO NOTES-------------------------------------
Ed Winters, known online as Earthling Ed, is a vegan educator and public speaker, co-founder and co-director of Surge, which founded the annual Official Animal Rights March, producer of the documentary Land of Hope and Glory, and my most requested podcast guest to date.
Ed has spoken at over 1/3 of UK universities and at 6 Ivy league colleges, including as a guest lecturer at Harvard University. He has given speeches across the world, including two TEDx talks in early 2019.
In October 2018 Ed opened Unity Diner, a non-profit vegan diner in London where all of the profits go directly back into helping animals. He launched The Disclosure Podcast in 2019.
-------------------------------------------LINKS--------------------------------------------
About Ed: earthlinged.org/
Surge: surgeactivism.org/
Land of Hope and Glory documentary: • Land of Hope and Glory...
Earthlings documentary: www.nationearth.com/
Michael Shermer podcast: • Michael Shermer - Deat...
Arthur Schopenhauer, On The Sufferings of the World (read online): en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the...
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@Wyatt Cunningham Sure, just email me
Ill pass on that cause i dont support veganism, but ill continue to enjoy the athiesm content
@@LeatherDaddy97 you don't support not causing suffering for no reason? weird
Alex, I found this podcast very interesting and thought provoking.. I appreciate this content being available for free and widely accessible to many people. I'm inspired to purchase your charity tee shirt (next pay day). I'm wondering weather you would be interested in the antinatalist discussion you briefly touched on.
I personally would find it very interesting if you would have David Benatar professor of philosophy at the university of Capetown and (author of the "human predicament"and "the harm of coming into existence" )on your Podcast who I believe to be also a fellow Vegan but also an antinatalist.
I find the antinatalist arguments from a philanthropic point of view to be quite hard to accept and counter intuitive.
It would bring clarity or at least further englightenment on the subject to someone like me who is sitting on the fence on the matter to which I think your podcasts are so valuable in at least helping people to decide for their own reasons, given both sides are argued ,which way one should fall.
Much appreciated either way!!
Thank you so much for this. I found you through Vegan Gains and then I came here to see your video with Earthling Ed. 🤗 It's good to see the atheist community representing for veganism. I wish Seth @ The Thinking Atheist would come around to it. He really loves animals.
Alex is one of the few people who have open and honestly heard the arguments in favour of veganism and changed his lifestyle accordingly, very impressive and inspirational
I did it immediately after he did! He's amazing
that is intellectual honesty!
thats what failed it for me. He got sucked into veganism. I thought Id never see him outtalked or outsmarted. Ive followed mr Sceptic since not many k subs at all. And this; Id never have guessed. I guess I will respect your right to freedom of choice, JUST LIKE I DO ABOUT RELIGEOUSNESS (Nod and smile politely like you wouldnt understand (at the moment)) :( You were the one.
@@nibel13 yikes
He got "sucked into" not intentionally harming other sentient beings anymore? Geez, how terrible!
Omnivore here. It’s getting harder and harder to hold my position without some serious cognitive dissonance the more I listen to people like Ed and Alex.
I don’t think I can morally justify eating meat any longer, at this point it’s become more of a habit that I need to break.
Good on you for admitting that! We've all been there. Go vegan! Best of luck!
Do it for January,
When you realise how easy it is I’m sure you will want to make that temporary change more permanent.
Technically you’re eating an omnivorous diet, you are not an omnivore. ✌️
@@om-boi what's the distinction?
Me too man made I turned vegan a few months back....it's much easier than you think.
Must be nice for ed to have an intelligent discussion
I'm your 100th like !
And yes I was thinking the same thing, and the last debate I saw he was constantly cut off. Love his answers either way though!💚🌱
I know right? and cosmic is about as good as it gets 😁
Haha! Yes!
Yeah usually he is talking to brainless flesh flakes
As opposed to some of the people he meets on his trips you mean?
Fish: I started going fishing with my father when I was four. He would take the hook out of their mouths and throw them on the floor of the boat. I would cry and cry and tell him they were still breathing, they were bleeding, they were hurting and he would scold me for being "too sensitive" or "whining." After many fishing trips like this where I would become upset and he would tell me not to worry about it, he started chaining them up at the back of the boat in the hope I would stop my incessant complaining about the welfare of the fish. These fish would be towed on a chain in the water behind the boat and I would keep looking at them, watching them struggle to get free, feeling stressed they weren't dead yet and still suffering, hoping they would die soon in order to ease both their and my misery. Again my father would try to tell me not to worry about it. This went on and on, time and again, until he finally started trying to kill them right after catching them to avoid having to deal with my complaints. Unfortunately, he chose to beat them over the head with a baton. This in itself was traumatizing since it was so violent. But worse, he would then leave them to suffer more by not following through with the killing. There they would be on the bottom or back of the boat gasping for breath, bleeding out, with half their head bashed in. I would beg him to finish the job, I would beg him to use a knife through their head (now being old enough to deduce how they could die a little more humanely), and again I would be told to be quiet, settle down, enough's enough! This went on for many fishing trips until he finally became annoyed by me complaining about the baton. He then started killing them with a knife through the brain. It was still violent and would take a while sometimes for them to die but it was far better than the baton. But they didn't always die immediately even after being stabbed through the head. This would make me upset and I would beg him to stick the knife in again and again to kill them so they wouldn't suffer. He would mostly ignore these pleas (too busy fishing), though sometimes he'd do it again just to shut me up. I would only ever feel a sense of relief when I knew for sure the fish were dead.
Mostly, fishing with my father was a futile exercise in trying to stay on his good side whilst making sure the fish felt as little pain and suffering as possible.
I fished with my dad for years and years. Why? Because it was one of the only ways I could bond with him. Problem is, the violent nature of fishing caused me so many issues because we were 'bonding' via something which for me was deeply traumatizing. Yes, I was traumatized by the suffering and killing of *fish* by someone I was supposed to trust to do the right thing. It had become clear to me from the age of four that letting these creatures suffer in any way was not remotely ok - but how to reconcile that with the love I had for my own father? The man I trusted more than anyone else in the world? The man who protected me, cared for me, helped me, loved me? Imagine being a child begging your father to kill in order to not feel the overwhelming pain of empathy for a suffering fish that no one else seemed to consider? Imagine all the ways that damages a child's psyche...
You may think my father is some kind of horrible man. But you'd be wrong - he's a beloved member of his community. He helps wherever and whenever possible, he is selfless in so many ways. He is kind and generous in most ways. He was just a product of a culture that does not feel fish suffer. (Or that a child can be deeply affected by such a thing). He always thought that if he just taught me not to focus on the fish, to "look the other way," to "suck it up", to "tune it out" and "turn it off", that I would somehow learn to accept fishing/killing of fish and eventually my 'hyper-sensitivity' would be expunged. Decades later, he now understands how wrong he was. And even though I had many other experiences of witnessing cruelty to animals throughout my lifetime, it was those fish I watched as a young child who were trying to escape their suffering, gasping for breath, wounded and bleeding out, twitching with pain and dying slow, agonizing deaths in order for us to have a quick fried campfire meal, that were the driving force behind my desire to end the exploitation and suffering of all animals. Fish.
Thanks for a great discussion. It was such a pleasure to see two of my favourite youtubers come together for this.
Wow. Thank you for this comment.
@M it could very well be
Thank you so much for this story, it explains exactly how sensitive I was as a child, to the suffering of any living creature, all the while being made to feel there was something very wrong with me for caring about what I seen as cruelty, thankfully, I didn't have to experience this as much as you did,
and let's be clear, the peer review literature with respect to the neurobiology of fish gives us no indication that they do not feel pain or that they are not sentient.
“A cursory review of the neurobiology of consciousness shows both the complexity of the phenomenon of consciousness and that conscious phenomena, such as pain, are not restricted to any one location in the brain. … [T]he neocortex is unique to mammals. Were the presence of a large, considerably developed neocortex the requirement for experiencing pain, as Rose suggests, his theory would eliminate birds, amphibians, other non-mammalian animals, and even some mammals from having the capacity of feeling pain, which is unfounded.”
www.hsi.org/assets/pdfs/hsi-fa-white-papers/fish_and_pain_perception.pdf
My absolute favorite comment
Hey look it's vegan jesus and my favourite atheist.
@veganbekah269 dude sameeeee
I love them both!
The Jesus of logic
Sooner or later this jesus joke is going to become an actual thing. In fact I already see actual religious behavior by vegans. The other day I was attacked on twitter merely for suggesting that you guys should stop shoving your beliefs down everyone else's throats. It's absurd that these people would be threatening me with physical violence or suggesting I should be locked in a box to wallow in my own shit and piss. How very moral of them. Granted, most accounts had something to do with PETA. Smh
@@dillon846 I didn't say that...I specifically addressed the hypocrites who are pretending to be about morality and reducing suffering, yet have no problems threatening a human being. How very enlightened. That's not activism, that's religious fundamentalism.
Ed was really influential early on when I went vegan. Alex is great as usual. So glad he went vegan.. Such an awesome podcast.
Well hello there!
Seen the documentary on Erthling Eds bad doings?
UnArmed Music Where can I watch it??
@@nibel13 Link it please
half hour in and I think i've been convinced off the ledge from vegetarian to vegan
Ayyy
Patricia Farrell , awesome I was vegetarian for a year before I moved to be being vegan. Personally I think it's a natural progression to vegetarianism and the desire to lessen animal cruelty and exploitation.
Dairy and egg industry is just as if not more cruel. Male chicks and calf's are worthless and are killed almost immediately. Forced insemination, seperation at birth et cetera. You are making the right choice!
@@LightswrathUltimatum I was at least vaguely aware of these issues, mostly just the fact that calves are taken from their mothers, when I became vegetarian. That was back in high school where just becoming vegetarian was throwing a wrench into groceries and dinner plans for my parents. Seeing this information again, and more that I wasn't previously aware of, reminded me that as an adult, I now have the ability to make these decisions around my food myself. That makes me morally responsible for my consumption in a way I wasn't back then, and now I really want to work harder at reducing the harm I cause
Patricia Farrell You should watch the last video from Bobby’s perspective..
Cosmic Skeptic is the best thing to happen to RUclips veganism
I think this shows the power of just one person going vegan, how many people will he have an influence on now?
Ed as well
and on a selfish note, the best thing happening to me from youtube. Nothing quite like critical thinking from someone that seek the greater pleasure for people and animals alike.
I think he might be the best thing to happen to vegan social media at all.
This didn't age well
Forget Popstars and actors - you two are the kind of people I want to see on stages, giving speeches, having debates and bringing change to the world. Thank you SO much for everything you do.
Keep thinking critically!
YES X100
you do not think critically. Animal fats are required to think critically. Our descent into madness is continuing with this deficient diet.
Yes 💚
@@katrienopsomer8012 what is a pop star
Sad though it seems majority can't follow conversations like this without being distracted
I love them though-take this over the evening news any day!
Cosmic Skeptic with Earthling Ed? Is this Christmas?
Saturnalia
Best cross-over.
Santa Claus is a hoax
It`s Giftmas.
It's vegan Christmas :)
Already a vegan atheist. But thanks for the great conversation.
same combo here
It is IMPOSSIBLE* to live without harming other living things, so what criteria does a vegan use to "draw the line" between what is acceptable to kill and what is not?
E.G.:
*farming vegetables kills hundreds of small animals, rodents, bugs, living organisms
*if you walk on grass you kill insects and living organisms
*if you drive a car you kill hundreds of insects
*when building a dwelling numerous small animals, rodents, bugs, living organisms are killed in excavating the land
*plants and trees are living also, science has now shown that they even communicate with each other, so why is it ok to kill them?
*and on and on....
---- so again I ask: what is the criteria vegans are using to "draw the line" as to what is acceptable to kill and what is not?
@@MyplayLists4Y2Y It is true that small animals are killed to farm plants. It is also true that about half of our farmed plants are used to feed livestock. If you eat meat, you're intentionally killing one sentient being, as well as the small animals killed producing food for that one.
Plants are living, but they do not experience pain and suffering. Veganism is concerned with sentience, not merely whether something is alive or not.
Sure, vegans may accidentally step on bugs while walking. This seems to be an unavoidable consequence of existing. We do not fault one another for unavoidable consequences, but we are liable for avoidable consequences. Your argument, "we step on bugs, so what's the point of not eating animals?" Could be used to justify nearly any atrocity.
@@MyplayLists4Y2Y The criteria is necessity. Breeding billions of animals to slaughter them is unnecessary suffering created by us. E.g. if your house is infested with cockroaches obviously it is ok to kill them.
@@mynameishaydn3287 SAID: "It is true that small animals are killed to farm plants."
REPLY: Thank you for validating that point. So what criteria determines that to be "OK"? The rest of your reply implies it's the "number" of animals killed, is that the criteria? If so, how many is OK?
MynameisHaydn SAID: "Plants are living, but they do not experience pain and suffering."
REPLY: How do you know this to be true? What is your verifiable evidence?
MynameisHaydn SAID: "Veganism is concerned with sentience, not merely whether something is alive or not."
REPLY: What criteria are using to define sentience?
MynameisHaydn SAID: "Sure, vegans may accidentally step on bugs while walking. This seems to be an unavoidable consequence of existing."
REPLY: Thank you for validating another of the points I made.
MynameisHaydn SAID: "We do not fault one another for unavoidable consequences, but we are liable for avoidable consequences."
REPLY: This goes to the heart of my question for vegans: what criteria are using to determine "avoidable/unavoidable consequences"?
*Jain monks cover their faces with masks or Muhapatti: ... It promotes non-violence of the tiny organisms that are there in the air.
*A person does not "have to" drive a car or excavate for building a home.
---- so what CRITERIA ARE YOU USING to determine what is an "acceptable consequences"?
MynameisHaydn SAID: "Your argument, "we step on bugs, so what's the point of not eating animals?" Could be used to justify nearly any atrocity."
REPLY: I have not put forth an argument. I asked an intellectually honest question to address what appears to be an obvious flaw in the vegan philosophy. I am truly curious as to how vegans address this is issue, plain and simple.
"When you know better you have an obligation to do better." I don't think I've ever agreed more with anything I've ever heard anyone else say!
I spent a few years not wanting to know, as if being an wilful ignorant exempt me from guilt.
Lol there is no obligation
@@Sal3600surely one's moral consciousness telling them something is a moral imperative doesn't exactly look like someone рuttіng а guп to уоur hеаd but
@@filipedias7284 I don't think you understand what a moral imperative means? Read 'Hume's Guillotine'. An Ought/Should/Have to, can only make sense with an 'If clause', and they are always perspectival/subjective. The problem is that Vegans/Vegetarians think that there is some universal objective morals/ethics to which people 'have to/ought to/should adhere to or discover because it is the ''Right Thing'', ''Good Thing, ''Just Thing'', to do. There are no such things. That's transcendental nonsense.
Damn Earthling Ed is so well spoken.
@The Masculine Alpha Are his arguments for veganism wrong?
@The Masculine Alpha How so?
@The Masculine Alpha You don't need to eat the dead flesh of any animal to live, quite the opposite, you're actually gonna be way healthier without animals products, which are directly related to the top causes of death in the world, cardiovascular diseases, multiple forms of cancers, and diabetes. Millions of people die every year due to these diseases caused by the animal products they eat that are full of cholesterol, natural hormones, steroids, growth hormones, antibiotics, concentrated levels of pesticides, salmonella, e-coli, pus, blood and even fecal matter.
Animal agriculture is also the leading cause of rainforest deforestation, and extinction of species, the leading cause of ocean dead zones and river pollution.
You might not care about animal suffering, or even the destruction of our planet, but you have to care about your own health, or at least the health of the ones you love.
Watch the documentary "What the Health" if you'd like to know more about what's making us all sick.
@The Masculine Alpha so you have no arguments.
But unfortunately quite illogical! try to refute this!ruclips.net/video/h40PORX7O1A/видео.html
Ed's Ted talk was what convinced me 100%, having been swayed by Cowspiracy. His logical and rational approach is very effective, and I'm now vegan. Keep up the good word, Ed!
🥰♥️🤗
watch earthlings
@@GamingLoadown101 and Dominion!
I'm currently in the process of going vegan from being vegetarian for about a year and this conversation really gave me hope and motivation
Awesome! I did the same last year, best decision I ever made and only wish I did it sooner ✌🐖
I did this too!
Go you 👏👏👏👏
@@blackskull395
Not that I don't trust your very valuable and clearly knowledgeable opinion Coralius but...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27886704/
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."
@Mi Maybe you should research it before telling people not to. And by researching I mean also expose yourself to something that doesn't confirm your bias :)
@Mi Hey. I wasn't trying to sound demeaning at all. It was just a suggestion/proposal. About the bias, because I think it's something we all as humans can tend to do, and forget that we're doing. Me included of course :)
It's so weird to see Ed speaking to someone who uses his brain, instead of non-vegans giving ridiculous arguments to harm animals
But plants feel pain tho 😂
I wont eat anything that makes oxygen for me.
I surely did 😂
@Christopher Sabionski I never got a chance to, I was never questioned, never met a vegan or vegetarian before, just went vegan myself immediately after finding out a plant based diet is the best to reduce inflammation
@@kjustkses really? Lol
Yup. Going vegan
Ryan Bruno if you’d like free assistance, check out challenge22.com !
Be ready to suffer serious health issues. Humans aren't designed to be vegans. There are like 25 famous vegan RUclipsrs who left veganism due to health issues. That's what will happen to you.
Nahuel Humans weren’t designed to be vegan? Humans weren’t designed at all.
Nahuel there is quite a bit of legitimate evidence out there that says meat isn’t our best source of calories either. Look at all the health issues America has because of its diet. Look at our teeth. Look at our cousin species.
As long as you make sure to consume enough calories and eat plenty of whole plant foods you will do great! I find that it's a very sustainable diet. Congratulations!
Vegan atheist, bodybuilder here. Kill workouts not animals. 🌱💪🏽🖖🏽
The fact alone that you call yourself a bodybuilder conflicts with veganism. As a bodybuilder you need to eat a lot while veganism seeks to minimize suffering.
Kierch Kierch .....but they're eating plants. is eating a lot of plants to prove to the world that its possible to be a Vegan body builder really a bad thing?
@@mayganphynix8267 and while doing that you kill a lot of (smaller) animals in the process.
Kierch Kierch so were suppose to not eat anything? eating Meat & Dairy requires much more plants grown and cuts down more trees to grow food to feed the animals and to make space for the animals, on top of the animals that get Slaughtered in a terrifying way. being vegan isn't about being perfect, because perfection is impossible. its about doing the best we can. the vegan lifestyle harms and kills much less animals and its much less damaging on our planet.
@@mayganphynix8267 exactly. That's my point. So that's why a being vegan can't go together with being bodybuilder.
Also for meat and dairy you don't have to kill more animals. Just eat grassfed meat only, it's not difficult.
Fish are sentient.. there are plenty of studies on fish cognition and behavior. Worth looking into
Exactly. And how arrogant of us homo "sapiens" to have assumed earlier (or still assuming) that they don't, when it's obvious that they do!
Ironically a lot of science shows that our brains probably developed higher due to a change in diet to fish.
@@Aaronjpolk more omega 3 and extra minerals and protein for us. Plus you can eat the whole animal and get all the organ meats and nutrients in the bones more easily. Fish eggs have complete nutrition for humans , they grow. a whole animal and we are animals. Even cows cant digest plants but they have enough microbes in their four stomachs that can digest the plant fibers and protein for them and make fatty acids from it. Even cows are on high fat diets not high carbs lol.
Plants can feel/bleed and interact with environment just like animals
Just vegans consider animals more important than plants for some reason
@@selfhealing1047 look even im not vegan but I understand the difference. Its conscience awarness they are talking about. A nervous system ect. We dont know enough to say plants "feel" in any way like we do. Pain singnals and emotional hurt are two different things.
Very interesting, I became vegetarian 2 years ago, for the same reasons, trying to align my morality with my actions. Slowly cutting all animal products of my diet and life in general. It's the right thing to do for the planet and for ourselves.
you go, girl!
Be vegan ❤️
You are right, there is no justification to not be vegan
@@80slimshadys very passive aggressive
@Speak Vegan Change i do not agree with you but that is your opinion
Been vegan for almost 2 years now. My family made fun of me for 6 months until they looked into it now most of them have cut back their animal product consumption by a lotttt. My brother in law is even vegan now. All for their own reason but it’s a step in the right direction for the world.
Congratulations man! :)
That's really good. Family is the hardest ones to change.
Veganism is a new religion for some. Just another way to force your beliefs onto someone else. In this case is the belief that somehow we shouldn't eat meat, even though nature is full of animals who eat other animals, and even though our body requires vitamins like B12 which can't be found in non-animal products. I truly dislike they way vegans carry themselves, as if they were morally better than everyone else, just like some religious folk do.
Nahuel religion is praising a higher power. So it not really comparable but I get where you are coming from. You are turned of by a very vocal minority and negative actions tend to stand out more than positive ones.
But when it comes down to it it’s just a bunch of people trying their best at life noticing flaws and trying to live forward instead of backwards.
Michael ahh yes the very original “leaves more meat for me” 🤦♂️😂
kinda embarrassing how people handle a strangers diet in a passive aggressive manner. Lol
Even as a vegan, there's still so many points I never thought about here. Great discussion! :D
Ed talking about honey was an eye opener
What else was eye spending? Please share 💜🥰♥️🤗🌱🦋
Yeah same.
1:21:30 I could swear I saw a hunting video, where two deer were running away from a shooter, one was struck and fell. The other one stopped, turned around looked at the shot one, hesitated, let of a horrible scream and then turned around and resumed running. I cant find the source as it was in no way connected in the meta data to "deer mourning" but it looke exactly the same as battle footage, where the soldier is under fire and cant give more then a glance and a "NO" or something, to recognize his fallen comrade. It was not mourning from "missing" in this case, it was an immediate reaction to the witnessed death.
Well it's a very outdated (and by outdated I mean by centuries) way of thinking to presume that other animals are not sentient, meaning that they don't feel and perceive the world around them.
Alex O’Connor meets Jesus and they agree on morality (Circa 2019 AD, Colorized)
😂
omg. xDDD
@Nobal Zealot01 and lamb (that is the basis of the Passover meal) Ed is very much an atheist but he does seem to try to look like the Western depiction of Jesus as it forms a cultural icon and would appeal to many Christians. People can be very superficial. Charles Manson did the same.
Nice one 😂
I mean Alex just became vegan 3 months ago and he already seems confused as to how anyone could not be vegan.
Edit: (Im vegan btw)
@Valpal You missed the point of my comment. He shouldnt have forgotten what it's like to be a non-vegan, when he was one 3 months ago. It's like someone who just became an atheist 3 months ago after being a Christian for 20 years. And not understanding how anyone could not be an atheist.
Yes I can see his arms are looking vegan too
@@mlee-w664 I guess it's like an awakening once you make the connection and it just clicks. But yes empathizing that not everyone has made that connection yet is important.
The experiences of becoming a vegan and becoming an atheist (at separate times) both made me frustrated with the world, like I was lied to. It made me feel that the reasons people have for not being these two things are usually just lack of thought or comfort in religion / diet. I think he's going through something similar. He feels lied to by his entire culture about a very important issue.
Veganism is an awakening once you truly understand on all levels. Those going Vegan simply for "diet" alone are still missing the point a bit
I have not even watched this video but this is a conversation I need in my life.
As a vegan I love him. I've been a vegan about 12 years.
"Vegans don't ride horses either." Nice one Mr Ed :)
He's an absolute gangster isn't he!
well... if the horse is okay with riding you then go ahead...
And the most illogical!ruclips.net/video/h40PORX7O1A/видео.html
@@nathanter7622 unfortunately horses cant give you consent. We've bred horses to be ridden but go try and ask a wild horse for a ride and see if it let's you.
We have mercilessly exploited bacteria in our gut, to digest our food for us, as life forms, not species, for billions of years. just look a little closer at 'life' and remember that 50% of our genes are the same as a bananas. There is not a non-exploitative organism in existence. The bacteria didnt like the new levels of O2, so they jumped into another single celled organism for protection, and they are still going...in our guts. Still 'allergic' to O2. A non-exploitative existence is just not possible. Is riding a horse as exploitative, as using bacteria to digest our food? Who are we to judge which life takes precedence?
This is amazing...the two people I support in patreon together...you both are amazing individuals
David L because of people like you this is possible :)
Two of my favorite creators having a brilliant discussion.
0 and how is that?
I live texas and yes, veganism is rare but its growing slowly
Luminarian 111 I feel for you sooooo much. Texas is so racist and spiesstist and horrible to animals. So so wrong. Bless you. ❤️🌱❤️🌱❤️❤️🌱❤️
@@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405 hell yea!! Everyone overweight
@billy0 90 thats what it is tho
@billy0 90 that's true. I agree!
@billy0 90 Whole food plant based diet 🥰✌🌱🦋
I loved this conversation especially towards the end when you guys started discussing the "red button". I appreciate Alex's tendency to ask hard questions.
Really? I found that section immensely frustrating to listen to. The answer just seemed so clear to me:
Suffering does not outweigh happiness, or at the very least, suffering and happiness are not even antithetical to begin with. Death is not a state of non-suffering. Death is a non-state. It solves nothing, because it is nothing. The big red button dilemma dissolves.
@@PickledShark I'd say I wouldn't press the red button because there's value to life and other things that have existed for or developed over a long time. Like cutting down an ancient tree. It doesn't have any sentience neither can it suffer, but it still feels immoral to cut it down. Life on earth evolved over billions of years. To kill it all off and end it all would be even worse. It also applies to non-living objects like pieces of art. You don't just run the original Mona Lisa through a paper shredder.
But I find those kinds of thought experiments - while interesting - somewhat impractical. I don't have a red button and I'll never have. So why waste any thought on what I would do in that situation? It's like one of those questions vegans get asked: What would you do if you're stranded on an island with only pigs to eat? - Well I'm not. I live in a city where I can go to the supermarket and buy all fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains, seeds, mushrooms, beans, herbs and spices I want. The island scenario will certainly never happen. I will think about what I'd do when it happens but I will certainly never need to.
@@HarveyHirdHarmonics just curious, but what are your opinions on abortion?
@@PickledShark correct if I'm wrong but isn't happiness irrelevant in this conversation. The question is specifically about minimizing suffering. The non-state has by definition the least amount of suffering.
Man, your drawings🔥 Where's the Fcing ✅
Two of my favourites. Very excited.
"So are you pro-life?"
Jesus Alex, you're good.
Are vegans more moral? Interestingly, Richard Dawkins, a meat eater himself, has said they are. The video clip is on youtube.
Yup, he's said that future generations may view us the same way we view our ancestors who were engaged in the slave trade.
@@aphihrsi8453 Why would you imagine his morals are based on his whims? Do you really think Dawkins does not consider morals to be important? He would have a problem with any ideological position, which seems to cause you to justify your hostility. You bring your own ideology into disrepute.
Yes it is interesting that Alex goes on about "making people immoral/making them into bad people" nonsense. Perhaps a mixture of the novel excitement/youth, but a contentious tack to take. Making people more morally aware appears less smug.
By Merriam-Webster definition, Vegans are more moral than meat eaters ✌🌱 it's a fact 😊♥️
@@martinlag1 we've had various debates with Richard Dawkins, and his positions are clearly absurd, which is why we criticize them.
U actually are consistent with your beliefs morals and facts Alex. Very very little people have this trait
It's my favourite vegan and favourite atheist together! :D
Same.
haha same! xD
Atheism and Veganism are truth!
@@ShadowZZZ And efilism/antinatalism.
ShadowZZZ I’m loving the vegan atheist fest in the comments lmao y’all are my PEOPLE
@Rip van Winkle Considering I'm going to do animal right activism in a few hours I think I'm worth more alive.
Oh such mega hype. The two people that made me go vegan in one podcast I cannot thank you guys enough for helping me through this. Love y'all.
James Arnett Amazing!
Awesome!
look Up the Happy Cow App on your phone! youre welcome 😉
*two
@@mayganphynix8267 Thanks for the advice but I've already got it. Not that great for me living the middle of the countryside and my nearest vegan restaurant being an hour and a half away. F
This interview was one of the most thought-provoking pieces of content I have seen related to the morality behind veganism. It really made me think about how I view these subjects being a vegan myself. Excellent job! :)
Plant-based food to nourish the body, CosmicSkeptic to nourish the mind. Thank you.
Vegan Jesus and vegan skeptic wow
My daughter became vegan last June and I joined her. The logic is inescapable and I’m glad she set me the example
45 minutes in! Howdy :) I'm a texas vegan. I live in san Antonio, stayed in arlington (town right outside of dallas), stayed in austin and stayed in Houston. I can promise you that a vegan diet is pretty easy to maintain in all of those cities. Our standard for what is convenient has totally shifted in the past couple decades but getting a filling vegan meal here in texas is much more convenient than getting any type of filling meal was when my mom was a kid.
I agree! Every Restaurant has vegetables, and potatoes. We're not going to starve 😅😅😅
Everything vegan is becoming easier, every year, isn’t it?
This is possibly the most well-matched conversation I’ve ever witnessed.
Just wow. This was exhausting to watch, and I don't mean that in a bad way. It was nice to see this topic taken to such a deep place, you really made me think!
This is the collab that I see in my wet dreams
sorry hahaha Same
Interesting. No offence is intended, I have heard some meat+ eaters claim an instinctive/DNA inherited survival drive to eat meat+ and they compare it to the human 'animal act'/ the biological imperative for coitus. Even the 'simple' itch is not fully understood.
@Lorenzo Van Matterhorn anyone who refers to someone as a "beta male" is an absolute knob
@@isoldmysoulnowwheresmytale6945 agreed. Lorenzo didn’t even make an argument, they just committed an ad hominem fallacy and moved on because it’s easier than addressing their cognitive dissonance.
So awesome to have such a powerful and honest intellectual being as Cosmic Skeptic showing such great support for veganism.
Hold on you're vegan?! All this time I've just assumed CosmicSkeptic videos which have 'vegan' in the title were anti-vegan videos. This is great to hear.
IM ACTUALLLY CRYINGGGG OMEGAAA JASSS MY TWO FAVORITE WELL SPOKEN SUPERNATURALLY GORGEOUS SPEAKERSSSSSS
"jasss" cringe..
Meh. I wouldn't go that far. 😝😝😝
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🐻🐻🐻🐻🐻🐻🐻🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
Bobbys Perspective. Check it out
@@HumanimalChannel yea it's good comedy that channel. Nobody can be as stupid as that guy
@@80slimshadys spoken like someone who hasn't watched the latest video.
I clicked on this video thinking it was some roast video of Ed and veganism, but found out another one of my RUclipsrs went vegan and I got a whole podcast with Ed :)
This is one for the books. Thank you so much guys!
I’ve been vegan since your debate with Matt Dillahunty. A few weeks ago, I went to Chipotle for a tofu bowl. I paid for it, and when I looked at my receipt I saw that I was charged for a chicken bowl. I said “oh, this was actually tofu bowl,” and the cashier responded “oops, that’s okay, it’s the same price.” I paused for only about a second, deep in thought... Should I ask him to refund me and recharge me for the correct item? Should I inconvenience the cashier AND all the customers waiting behind me? Do I really want to be THAT guy? ...So I just said casually “eh, okay...”
So there I sat at chipotle, eating tofu even though I just supported the meat industry, my sacrifice of pleasure completely in vain. The cashier must’ve detected my internal conflict in that brief moment during our exchange, because he came over to apologize for ringing the wrong item. I told him it wasn’t a big deal, and I explained that I had recently become vegan for ethical reasons, and that I just wasn’t too happy that my money had just supported the meat industry. So he said “I’ll tell you what... the next person who orders a chicken bowl, I’ll charge them for a tofu bowl. That should fix it, right?” I called him a genius (I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of that) and I thanked him. He went back to work, and I enjoyed my food. A few minutes later, the cashier politely yelled across the busy store to me “Hey man, I got you!” giving me a thumbs up.
So here’s something I wish I could have a hard answer to: If you had to choose one or the other, would it be better to simply avoid purchasing meat, or to actively support vegan substitutes?
Try to support vegan substitutes as much as possible. But remember the healthiest diet is a vegan whole foods diet. So try to eat mostly healthy and go for some processed vegan food a couple of times a month only.
xBALL3R My concern pertains only to the ethics. Which choice would reduce more suffering?
@@AlexWalkerSmith I would say if you really want to maximize the reduction of suffering, then go for it. Eat as many substitutes as possible. And with possible i mean without severly negatively affecting your health. Being a unhealthy vegan will turn the people around you (future potential vegans) away from the vegan diet, which is somthing you want to avoid. So i guess the hard answer will be given by your body over time.
The 2 guys that convinced me of becoming vegan.
Now this is epic.
Sorry they brainwashed you to join the veganist cult.
Facts don’t care about your feelings.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27886704/
Alexis V better than the cult that demands animal sacrifice, environment devastation and health epidemics.
@@alexisv9387 What cult ? What brain washing ? If you have problems with the arguments the world is very interested to hear. CS even made a video some time ago about wanting to be convinced veganism is not the way so he could still justify eating meat.
@@alexisv9387 if you think telling people and convincing people murder is bad is brainwashing. Then I feel bad for you😂
I never thought I'd see you talking to Jesus
Hello,
Jesus/God ate meat according to the bible. Will vegans accuse the Creator of the universe? Doesn't God have the right to do as He pleases(Psalm 115:3).
Godzilla John - no, because "He" doesn't exist.
@rvrphnx He does exist! He's the second element right after Hydrogen. And the first noble gas. He can lift you up in the sky, He can also kill you. He makes your voice funny. Praise be unto He, Helium.
@@UnrizzleGrizzle Well that doesn't change the fact that God allows us to eat all things(Mark 7:19, Acts 10:13, 1 Timothy 4:4).
Christ died on a cross to save people from their sin, not animals.
@@micahhenley589 Jesus died on the cross because he chose to do so.
Effectively it was suicide to save himself from himself in order to set an example in a world that he, God, 'created' .
There is nothing remotely noble or selfless about putting yourself in a situation you created in the first place, when you if you were oh so powerful you could easily get out of it.
There is nothing remotely loving about leaving people or animals to suffer if your god was so powerful, he could stop it.
If god is unwilling to stop evil he's not loving
If god/Jesus can't stop evil then he is not all powerful and if god/jesus can stop evil but didn't, then he put himself in that situation for the sake of people worshipping him and kissing his feet and I have no empathy for him.
But he doesn't exist so that's why none of it makes sense.
These channels pushed me towards atheism and veganism. Thank you.
I became a vegan today.Thank you for this information,it has changed my reality.
Best wishes for your vegan journey.
It's been 2 years since you posted this comment. How's the vegan endeavor going?
I LOVE that veganism is being given so much time on the youtubes these days :)
Be kind. Be healthy. Be happy. Eat plants
💚💚💚🌱🌱🌱
keep making those vegan gains 💪🌱
I eat animal meat and i I'm kind, i'm healthy, i'm happy and i also eat plants and fruits.
@@iams2109 how can you kill animals for food and call yourself kind....... Will you call the Chinese yulin dog meat festival kind...... Clearly humans don't need to eat dead dog meat still they do...... Similar to what we do to other animals
@@savitasubrahmanyam3953 I'm kind with my family. I put the food on the table. Regarding the dogs, i don't eat dogs and i don't have dogs as pets. You can ask that question to Chinese people, is their problem if they want to eat dogs, cats and horses.
Amazing, I’ve been wanting to become a vegan, but I was very unsure 🙂✌🏻this video helped
DON'T DO IT
Just don't be stupid about it. Eat properly, track your micronutrients, avoid vegan junk food
For me, VEGAN for more than 27 years but die hard carnist for the first 26 years of my life, upgrading to VEGAN living was the best decision I ever made.
Please keep in mind that VEGAN is NOT a diet (most plant based dieters conflate one for the other)
.....it's the practical way of aligning our beliefs of non violence with our behaviors and actions. One cannot support the cruelties of rodeos and be vegan even if their diet is currently plant based.
Do it
Please watch this first, I think the the maker of this clip is a little too much, but he shows something. ruclips.net/video/PJnPZgLHHWQ/видео.html
This was such an amazing conversation!!! Thank you both!
Earthling Ed is a true gem. Thanks for inviting him!
I got way too excited over this
If you didn't faint at least twice, you didn't get excited enough
@@epitomeofhumantrash9794 😂😂
I really hope they do this again!
Such a great conversation with two very well spoken people! Made me question my vegetarianism
Duncan Fraser thank you for being so open minded. ❤ have you heard of the Happy Cow App? it can help you find Good Vegan Food at restaurants close to you! Cheesy Pizza, ice cream, etc. check it out! ❤🌎🐾
I was vegetarian for 6 years before learning about dairy and eggs. The switch isn't as hard as it seems, especially with all of the vegan cheese, yogurts, ice creams and scrambles available now. You can do it!
One of the most fascinating podcasts I've ever listened to! Congrats for getting him on as always!
Two of my favorite persons. What a great podcast.
Yesss finally! I have been waiting for this!
@Noble Zealot01 the majority of his content is still atheist focused.
@Noble Zealot01 i mean. Why spend so much time arguing the existence of a being that can't defend itself? I like his vegan content rn
It's nice to hear good, civilized discussions about things such as veganism.
such a thing cannot exist
@@dillon846 Look you have to options in life. normal meat diet or suicide, those are you options, even if it may not look like it at this time.
@@dillon846 Nope. never said that.
SteakOnSpear It's literally happening in this video?
@Dr Grey thought about it but no thanks. I love hunting and fishing too much, would be a waste of meat.
my two favorite youtubers in one video!!!!! this totally made my day.
That two hours flewwwwwww by fast! Great topics and great flowing conversation!
Seriously I need to know how you manage all these stuffs, while maintaining studies and life!
Great discussion.....keep up the good work Alex🔥🔥
It is exceptionally good.
I haven't heard such an intellectually stimulating discussion in a long while! Thank you, it was so great seeing two very intelligent and open people discussing such interesting topics.
I really have an interest in a follow up conversation. I had never heard Ed talk with a former vegan. He is usually very calm and logical. Because Alex is a logical philosopher... An interesting conversation would be so good to see.
Omg this is the guy that made me vegan! Damn my 2 favorite people in one video
Edit
I just realized that cosmic skeptic is why i am an atheist
Jeon Burrito why you became vegan answer my question
@@jacksonfrank6585 I went vegan because it's the least animals deserve
Mira Lubin do you know planets also have feeling
Jackson Frank watch ed winters ted talk about vegan diet and you will find your answer
@@jacksonfrank6585 what evidence do you have that plants feel pain, suffer, or even have feelings? Plants don't have a central nervous system, they haven't evolved to have any of those attributes. If you care about plants dying, you should still be vegan because more plants die in animal agriculture than just farming plants, with animal agriculture you support animal and more plant death than if you just ate plants.
Looking forward to listening to these two gentlemen speaking about veganism. GO VEGAN!
go nutritional deficiencies !
our ideology worth at least that !
Please answer
Would you eat that meat they grow in a lab ?
No
Sure, go vegan. Except its same as - believe in my god! No one has provided convincing argument for it to me.
@@sasilik honestly i see many more reasons to not go vegan
Very interesting conversation. Had been looking forward to this for a while.
This was wonderful, you're both invaluable assets to the vegan movement.
I couldn't agree more. The cogent insights that Alex is bringing to the vegan movement are truly unparalleled and I think only Earthling Ed would be the runner-up to his eloquence on behalf of the animals.
Only a third through and already an amazing talk.
Really enjoying the vegan content keep it up!
really enjoyed this conversation. i appreciate both of you.
Thank you very much for this high level of discussion. Love you guys.
I am a vegan & from personal experience (which I don't want to specify on internet) I am pro choice. Because from the example stated a cockroach's existence or life is not causing any physical or emotional pain to a human. However a forced pregnancy has severe consequences on the mother, not just the 9 months of pregnancy and the childbirth itself but also the time after. This is where the necessity comes into picture. Eating an animal or crushing the insect or such acts only have one victim and is in simple terms highly unnecessary. But in case of unwanted pregnancy especially because of abuse or forced pregnancy the mother is the first victim & has all the rights to protect herself first. I can be trashed in comments but I urge you to think twice with open mind before doing so :) I don't write this comment lightly and without experiencing it.
Amazing interview Alex!
Hopefully this will help many to break through our doctrine of unnecessary suffering towards other groups 👍🏽
Alex, congratulations on almost 4 months of veganism! The first months are the biggest learning curve. Thanks for having an open, skeptical mind in regards to veganism. Many atheists reject it outright, which I've never understood. (long exposition ahead) My questioning, and eventual refusal, to be indoctrinated into consuming animals gave me the skills and courage to question my religious indoctrination. My loss of faith was heavily influenced by my love of animals. Compassion for my fellow earthlings was the driving factor in my life that forced me to question my Christian upbringing. I remember being shocked by the animal cruelty in the bible and thinking that no god worth worshipping would demand such atrocities.
I also remember first questioning my church about animal cruelty in the Bible, with all the animal sacrifices and forcing pigs to run off cliffs, etc. My church strongly believed that animals were beneath them in every way, that they were authorized by God to exploit and use non-human animals, that humans had souls and other animals did not. It's that superiority complex that still lingers in many secular people, the idea that there is something innately superior about humans that gives us the right to treat animals in ways we would never imagine treating another human being. It's a dogmatic assumption that animals are not emotional beings such as ourselves, though the scientific evidence strongly suggests otherwise.
I became vegetarian at 9 and was the only one in my community for a long time. I was told repeatedly that "God put animals on this earth for us to eat, and by not eating them, you are defying God's will!" and other such nonsense. I couldn't comprehend an all-powerful, just, and kind god that would give an object meant for consumption sentience and the ability to suffer. If this god of which they spoke was truly good, they would not have designed a system like this. That is when I realized I was either more moral or more capable (or both) than the god of the Bible.
These experiences opened my eyes to the cruelty in the Bible, as the adults rarely mentioned the parts of the Bible that condoned and encouraged slavery, treated women as men's property, demanded genocides, etc... No, those were a bit too far out of the Overton window to mention to children, but animal cruelty was and is a social norm, especially in my rural West Virginian county. Everyone went hunting, most of my uncles and cousins fought chickens, and my parents and grandparents killed cattle and sold their bodies. They are indoctrinated into the objectification and abuse of animals, just as they are indoctrinated into the church, and taught not to question why we do the things we were taught to do.
I have been vegetarian for 12 years and vegan for 2, and it has taught me so much about uniting for our similarities rather than being divided for our differences. If we put aside our differences with another species and give up our privilege to exploit them, all the while going against the grain of society, we can certainly treat all of our fellow humans with such compassion and empathy.
16:00 I want to add quite recently a law has been passed so that instead of testing on two types of animals, they can now do it with one. For the second test they should use in-vitro and with cells, which would also be cheaper and allows more tests than they would on animals.
I know it’s still not perfect but it is at least an improvement
00:00 Into to Ed
03:22 why you went vegan
06:25 have you made peace with your past/guilt topic
08:43 are vegans morrally superior people
11:00 Where do you start with opening someone to veganism
14:37 is it allowed to buy medicine that contains lactose and will have already been tested on animals
22:15 speciesism
26:44 what gives a being moral worth
28:25 milk
34:55 how do you cultivate empathy in those that know what goes on but don't care
40:00 is fair for a farmer to carry on farming because of their livelihood depends on it
45:27 can we expect people in society with little vegan options to go vegan
48:25 is it immoral to give money to homeless knowing they will likely spend in McDonald's
52:30 should we spend money in fast food chains on their vegan options when they are largest culprits
59:48 camping with accidental non vegan food thought experiment
1:05:30 Should we have a similar reverence for animals as we do humans once they die
01:08:50 cultivating empathy for fish
01:12:20 honey
01:18:45 what is wrong from killing an animal painlessly before it is due to die
01:21:21 do animals mourn loved ones
01:23 05 can I kill and eat a cockroach (happiness potential and pro life)
01:30:48 minimising net suffering and culling.
01:36:40 It may be within human nature that suffering is the predominant force and if that's the case, what are we doing here?
01:40:40 should you press the button to end all life and suffering
01:49:00 is it irresponsible to say veganism is the most important immoral emergency facing us today
01:53:00 outro
aye, you the man Luke! I hope more people like this comment so it gets seen
Alex, I know this is an older video, and I'm sure you've heard this from enough people but your influence has been VERY powerful for me. At times I find it hard to defend my decision to pursue veganism against detractors, but watching your content on the matter really reinforces to me that the Logical Foundation of Veganism is incredibly solid, and watching you champion this cause has helped me finally make the push from Veggie to Vegan
Why is it hard to defend it cor you?
@@anyoneatall3488 There's a stark difference between "I believe in this wholly" and "I am well enough educated on the matter to where I can dismantle another's argument carefully."
I always felt it was right, and eventually built a little foundation of "it's unethical and not sustainable to eat meat" but everybody in my family has been a nay-sayer, and has tried their darndest to change what I believe and call me out for being "misinformed".
Thanks to the content from EarthlingEd and of course Alex here, I feel a lot more comfortable standing up for veganism to the people in my life as something that is both ethical AND logical.
@@Leelee-Brown right now i'll continue to eat meat because i know my family will just not listen to me, i don't want to make things tense in my house but i'd like to know if you think i'm a bad person because of this
I will still eat meat because i would find it even worse that they killed animals and i didn't even eat it, enough meat is trown to the rubbish, as soon as i'm indepemdent i'll begin a vegetarian diet, maybe even a vegan one
@@anyoneatall3488 I don't think of you as a bad person because of that. Our lives are just a collection of choices, some of which are well supported and can be described as "good, ethical, or logical", others as "weak, nearsighted, bad" choices. I think, given your position, what you're choosing to do is defensible, and fine. There's a cost to defying our parents while we live in their homes, they have the power to ruin our lives pretty much. I'm more so saddened by the fact that cases such as these do occur, where people who are considering a plant based diet are forced by circumstance (family) to give up on that consideration. As long as you stay mindful, exercise what agency you do have towards the better, and choose to act in accordance to your morals once you're independent, you're fine by me.
Though of course, I don't know anything else about you, and I don't like describing people as Good and Bad, so I'll refrain from doing as much.
Keep being mindful, and making the best decisions you can.
What a reflective conversation that starts from one place and ends at another. It's a delight hearing you both talk so truthfully with reason.
Really thrilled to see Alex and Ed together, been following both of them for some time.
It warms my heart to hear that you are vegan now!
It’s the logical compassionate choice!
It's the delusional moral fascists' choice.
@@rstevewarmorycom No such thing as a "moral" fascist. Your reactionary is showing
It's nothing of the sort. It's a mixture of an eating disorder, self-aggrandizement, a cult movement and prosperity degeneration.
@@KattReen It's quite obvious that you have no idea what fascism means.
www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm
@@noimnotnice It's an animal rights position; A position for the ethical treatment of animals.
You are a little off the mark I'm afraid.
my two favorite people in one video ❤️ loved it
Great interview! Thank you both.
Amazing! Thanks Alex and Ed. 🙏🏽
Buying honey to help keep wild pollinators well is like buying chicken wings to keep wild bird populations healthy
Exactly, honey bees are displacing native bees.
bees are in danger because of habitat loss, use of pesticides and a mite not because of the of the threat of commercial pollinator bees. Commercial pollinator bees are needed these days. Since the natural bees have not only lost their habitat but are not doing it naturally in sufficient mass anymore. Please do your research a bit more. Wild pollinators don't do what they are supposed/need to do, because of habitat loss. www.soilassociation.org/organic-living/bee-organic/why-are-bees-in-danger/ not only true in brittain but worldwide as well. Here read some more www.scienceabc.com/nature/bee-extinction-means-end-humanity.html
Natural progression for atheists to become vegans and vice versa. They both believe that morality is based on not causing harm to others which must include animals. What a wonderful basic discussion. We need more humans like these 2 beautiful people.
I don't think belief or lack of belief in God has something to do with the moral obligation to become vegan.
WhiteCrow Agreed.
Amen 🙏😁🌱♥️🦋
@@whitecrow1583
It removes the greatest barrier to that moral insight.
@@whitecrow1583 I think most Christians would agree that morality is dictated by god whereas most atheists would say that morality is based on not causing harm to others which more naturally aligns with veganism.
At 1:52, Alex makes a statement that could sum up the vegan philosophy in two sentences. Paraphrase: "The only attribute for moral consideration should be the experience of pleasure and pain. It can't depend on the vestibule in which that experience is contained."
Absolutely brilliant.
The last 20 minutes were actually very comforting and made quite peaceful. Thank you Alex and Ed
fantastic that you made the switch btw : )
I have to say that this is one of the best explanatory discussions for the ethical argument for veganism that I have come across! Well done lads!
Wow! Two of my favorite speakers in one place. Love it!