Harvard Med Student & Scientist Lowers Cholesterol with Oreos - with Nick Norwitz
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- Nick Norwitz, PhD and Harvard Medical student, showed he can lower his LDL cholesterol twice as much with Oreo cookies compared to statins. Since Nick is a lean mass hyper-responder (LMHR) following a ketogenic diet, he sought to demonstrate how LDL lowering may not always be the ultimate goal, especially if you get there with Oreos! But what does this mean for how we see LDL, and how it might impact the understanding of LMHRs?
Many LMHRs follow the ketogenic diet as a medical intervention to treat conditions such as diabetes or mental disorders. Based on the “lipid energy model,” we can hypothesize that LDL elevations may not have the same impact on someone who is an LMHR. The results of Norwitz’s provocative experiment serve as a call to action for further scientific investigation to help patients weigh risks and benefits when pursuing treatment options.
Link to the Oreo Study:
Oreo Cookie Treatment Lowers LDL Cholesterol More Than High-Intensity Statin therapy in a Lean Mass Hyper-Responder on a Ketogenic Diet: A Curious Crossover Experiment
mdpi.com/2218-1989/14/1/73
Nick Norwitz - / nicholas-norwitz-md-phd
Twitter @nicknorwitz
RUclips @nicknorwitzPhD
Other studies mentioned:
Elevated LDL Cholesterol with a Carbohydrate-Restricted Diet: Evidence for a “Lean Mass Hyper-Responder” Phenotype
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
About us:
Metabolic Mind™ is a nonprofit initiative incubated by Baszucki Group. Our mission is to provide education and resources in the emerging field of metabolic psychiatry, including ketogenic interventions for mental disorders.
Our channel is for informational purposes only. We are not providing individual or group medical or healthcare advice nor establishing a provider-patient relationship. Many of the interventions we discuss can have dramatic or potentially dangerous effects if done without proper supervision. Consult your healthcare provider before changing your lifestyle or medications.
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:34 How the Oreo & LDL study was conducted
3:58 Results of the Oreo & LDL study
5:14 Why did Dr. Norwitz conduct the Oreo study?
8:46 What isn’t the Oreo study?
10:42 What will people take away from the Oreo study?
15:30 Will people conclude that Oreos are healthy?
17:00 How can this study be applied to the general population?
19:10 A call to engage with the scientific community
20:48 How this study can be applied to a clinical setting
25:37 Current body of evidence on high LDL for lean mass hyper-responders
27:29 Risks vs benefits of keto for lean mass hyper-responders
30:02 How Dr. Norwitz felt while eating Oreos and on statins
35:42 What is next for Dr. Norwitz? And how can you help?
#MetabolicMind
#KetoForMentalHealth
#MetabolicPsychiatry
#MetabolicNeuroscience
#KetogenicMetabolicTherapy
#LeanMassHyperResponder
#LDL
#Cholesterol
#LMHR
#LipidEnergyModel
#NutritionalKetosis
#KetoDiet
So many people think “cholesterol” is a disease. I hope this helps to start break that incorrect paradigm.
When i was in horrible metabolic and physical shape my TC was just under 200. My HDL was below normal and triglycerides were through the roof. My doctor never said a word.
I dropped 50lbs via IF and extremely low carb. My LDL and HDL shot up to 347/72. Triglycerides dropped from 200+ to 93. My doctor completely freaked out and wanted me on statins... NEGATIVE...i have never looked back.
You avoided certain future doom.
What a great telling moment that will likely be ignored by most of establishment medicine. We’ve been handing out statins for almost 50 years like candy and yet heart disease remains the number one killer.
I can tell you from the inside... definitely not getting ignored, LOL!
People need to lean the word "NO" and use it with their PCP. Until that happens prople woll continue to be lemmings and have bad outcomes from blindly taking these very harmful stating drugs, among others. Americans are incredibly IGNORANT and want a pill for everything. The visit to the PCP isn't for health, it's for a prescription. I know because I retired from practice because I couldn't do that anymore. I hated every time someone threatened me if I told them they didn't need a pill for their issue.
We need a whole lot more to ignore it though Nick, but keep up the good work.
Neither cholesterol nor lipoproteins cause disease
@@nicknorwitzPhD
I'm at a stage where my parents and in laws are all on statins. How could you convince them that low fat high carb is the problem???
And drinking I bet
Maybe if someone has high LDL they should get a CAC score and find out if they have CVD first? Instead of throwing a drug at them!
Very interesting thanks for sharing, I've been ketovore for 7 years, former T2D a1c from 13.3 to 5.1, 255 lbs to 175 (now 185) that's my why. Seems I always have a elevated LDL and yes they always want me to leave the office with a statin, (67 years young)
that ain't in the Sacred Protocols of the Medico-Pharma Industrial Complex.
Gila monster venom - pronounced Hee-la monster venom.
A doctor taking the time to establish an actual disease as opposed to prescribing a drug based on an outdated lipid concept? That's crazy talk!
@@Beatrice-nx5ldYou can do a CT angiogram to detect the soft plaque. But having a CAC score of 0 at your age is highly correlated to very low risk of atherosclerosis. You can repeat the CAC test every couple of years to reassure your physician
Brilliant action by Nick, to boldly go where no one has gone before!
@amfohr You are completely wrong. It seems that you are not well-educated enough to realize that this PhD student is simply discussing things that academics like myself already know. Please get a book on basic human biology and chemistry before you praise a very new PhD recipient.
@@bodybuddha-t1d What 'things' did you already know John, can you be a bit more specific? I mean, that is something I can ask of a well-educated person I hope?
@@amfohr Well the whole situation of Nick being on media talking like he has discovered something new is quite frankly comical and very dishonest, obviously he just hopes to get exposure for himself and his channel,now all the health and low carb youtube gurus will jump on the Oreo lowers LDL train to gain subscribers but normal people will be even more confused and that's what these RUclipsrs love doing,they love confusion because it makes them money making videos. While his revelations may seem less groundbreaking to those well-versed in our field, it is crucial to elucidate the biochemical intricacies at play.
Fundamentally, in the absence of a threshold glucose intake typically 100-130 grams a day, glycogen stores deplete, prompting the liver to initiate gluconeogenesis, mobilizing fat for energy. This metabolic shift elevates LDL levels, acting as metaphorical garbage trucks transporting surplus oxidized particles to the liver. Conversely, reintroducing carbohydrates/Glucose ie "Oreos" replenishes glycogen stores, leading to a decline in LDL levels,his therefore fooling no one in academic circles only very uneducated people on youtube.
This dynamic interplay underscores the importance of discerning the nuanced relationship between dietary choices and metabolic responses, dispelling the notion of Mr. Norwitz's revelations as irrelevant and highlighting the evolutionary significance of glycogen storage in the liver.
Nature has chosen to give the liver an opportunity to store Glycogen for a fast fuel for muscles to enable quick reactions(fight or flight)autonomic reactions without that gluconeogenesis in the form of fat conversion may not fully supply that need,the fact is people are overloading on simple sugars and carbohydrates,when we only really function 100% on what our livers store ie 100-130 grams per day,its the carbohydrate /glucose over load that makes red blood cells saturated and therefore causes heart disease,CV disease and obesity.
@@bodybuddha-t1d Fair enough, I don't find it confusing tbh, he also might have taken a banana or a sweet potato to get the same effect. The point was more to compare the effect of reintroducing some carbohydrates with a statin, what doctors usually tend to prescribe. The point is that reintroducing some carbs is more effective and without the downside of statins.
@@bodybuddha-t1d You write that a "carbohydrate /glucose over load makes red blood cells saturated and therefore causes heart disease,CV disease and obesity." If that is so well known then WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT EDUCATED ABOUT THAT?! 70% of Americans seem metabolic unhealthy.
Finally what is your opinion on elevated LDL on a high fat low carb diet, that is elevated LDL caused by low glycogen storage? Does it increase risk for CVD? Since you specifically mention it in regard to carbohydrate /glucose over load.
Here's a ChatGPT summary:
- Harvard Med student and scientist Nick Norwitz lowered his cholesterol with Oreo cookies while following a ketogenic diet.
- The experiment aimed to test the lipid energy model and the concept of the lean mass hyper-responder.
- Lean mass hyper-responders are individuals on a ketogenic diet who are lean and have high LDL cholesterol but good metabolic health.
- The lipid energy model suggests that LDL and VLDL are used to traffic triglycerides for energy, leading to high LDL levels in some individuals.
- Norwitz conducted a crossover trial on himself, comparing the effects of Oreo cookies to high-dose statin therapy on his LDL levels.
- The trial was conducted with appropriate IRB ethics, support from his PCP, and a consultant cardiologist.
- Oreos lowered Norwitz's LDL from 384 to 111 in 16 days, a 71% drop, which was twice as effective as the statin therapy.
- The experiment was not intended as a health intervention but as a metabolic demonstration.
- The findings are meant to provoke conversation and scientific curiosity, not to suggest that Oreo cookies are healthy.
- Norwitz experienced emotional lability and discomfort during the Oreo phase, indicating a negative impact on his well-being.
- The study aims to encourage further research into the lipid energy model and lean mass hyper-responders.
- Norwitz hopes the study will not be misinterpreted to promote unhealthy eating habits.
- The study highlights the need for more research on the specific population of lean mass hyper-responders and their cardiovascular risk.
- Main message: The experiment with Oreo cookies was a dramatic demonstration to test a scientific model and provoke discussion, not a recommendation for dietary practices.
Are you forgetting the sugary processed breakfast cereals that show up as highly recommended in the Tufts generated food rating guide? It would not surprise me to discover Oreos high up on that list.
Yeah, when you read the comments left by vegans on the Plant Chompers interview with Nick they are using it to justify their hatred of meat-based diets and saying that even the worst carbs are better than animal protein/fats. I think that this is useful for those doing keto that are concerned by their super high LDL (>300) and get bad side-effects from statins. It can even be helpful for those that want to quickly reduce their LDL for insurance purposes. Also let's remember that Nick is not the only person that has reported this effect. Dr Tro published last year a series of case studies showing that adding 50-100 g of carbs through sweet potatoes to 5 of his LMHR patients lowered greatly their LDL
They did, in fact, list chocolate chip cookies as "healthier" than ground beef. Specifically cookies were rated as acceptable in moderation, while ground beef was recommended to be completely avoided.
If I were forced to eat some junk food to lower my LDL, I would choose Romney’s Kendal mint cake, since it’s almost pure glucose. The ingredients list for Oreos is disgusting. 🤮 🤢
My doctor said since I refuse to take a statin there's no reason for him to even order a lipid panel blood test. I said "OK". But later I realized, wow! That was a tacit admission that he ONLY looks for opportunities to sell drugs, not for problems in my health.
Yep. Most doctors are legalized drug pushers.
If you don't know, you can get an NMR lipid panel done with a doctor's order. It will give basic information and the composition of your lipid particles.
@@johnow7: _"you can get an NMR lipid panel"_
Yes, I could. But as my former doctor explained, he couldn't justify asking for it for diagnosis, so I would have to pay for it. I decided I didn't want it bad enough to pay for it.
My goal is to see a doctor as little as possible. This new doctor's goal seems to be to see as little of patients as possible that he can't pump full of drugs. So I guess we're right for each other.
@@KenJackson_US I get the basic lipid panel paid for and pay out of pocket for the NMR. I diet carnivore/ketovore, mostly carnivore. I personally wouldn't dream of proceeding with this diet without regular blood work. For most of the first year on this diet, my triglycerides shot way up. I had to change my eating habits on the diet to bring them down. Who knows the long term damage I could have done had I blown off labs. I don't believe that one diet fits all and I use my labs as an indicator that the diet I have chosen is working for me.
@@johnow7 My understanding is that carbs, especially sugar causes triglycerides.
I saw my roughly yearly lipid panel markers improve in the first three and a half years of keto, so I'm not concerned. I don't even prick my finger for glucose any more. Keto shouldn't be too complicated. I'm just staying the course, trending toward carnivore.
My concern is thyroid. Why the heck am I hypothyroid? I pulled teeth to get this doctor to order the thyroid antibody tests and found that they're very high. Great. Now I know for sure that I have Hashimoto disease. Didn't know before. So I'm making progress.
Being curious is the base of science. Your findings are forcing us to think better about how certain people react to certain foods, and what that means for health. Great!
As a LMHR myself, thank you for pushing the science. I was told to see a cardiologist. Nope.
Wouldn’t hurt to get a CAC at time 1 and time 2 and see how you’re doing. But if you’re like me and don’t plan on changing my diet anyway then F it. If you feel good you are good. I don’t think any diet matters that much. Avoiding diabetes, dementia, frailty and obesity is #1. That rules out all cholesterol meds. Meat and eggs.
@@forester057 My Kaiser doctor wanted me to take a statin but refused to give me a CAC. I think of him as an insurance adjuster and drug pusher, not a doctor.
Some doctors are drug agent😁
I’m convinced ALL humans were what we would today label as “Lean Mass Hyper-Responders” for the 99.6% of our 2 million year existence prior to our invention of agriculture. The dietary pattern available to hunter-gatherers would be expected to produce higher cholesterol levels compared to that produced on the plant-based, high PUFA vegetable seed oil, high carbohydrate dietary pattern which was already the dominant dietary pattern when we began measuring cholesterol levels back in 1955. I believe if there were a “fossil record” of human cholesterol levels, it would show far HIGHER levels than what we currently label as “hypercholesterolemia”.
The genuine evidence indicates that high LDL in and of itself is NOT invariably dangerous. It is part of a milieu which must be evaluated as a whole. Unfortunately most medical professionals come nowhere near understanding the nuance.
High LDL is not causal. It's a part of the biochemical equation, but isn't indicative of disease. Biopsies of atherosclerotic plaques, for example, contain a small amount of LDL particles. However those biopsies showed staggeringly large amounts of campesterols. Since that is essentially a plant sterol, and could only get there via seed oils, that huge result has been ignored, and all focus is on the presence of tiny amounts of LDL, Not even mentioning campesterols, or that those plaques are primarily composed of scar tissue.
Oreos: the newest drug craze.
😂
OTC!
Get ready for the Oreos price to go up.
does this channel have a discount code for Oreos - asking for a friend
That was pretty dang funny. Thanks
Love his ingenuity and grit.
Awesome interview! I can so relate to *male period*. Since I went keto my actual female periods have evened out so much that I barely notice them. But I also realized that my mood wasn't only fluctuating through out the month but also sooo much through out the day. None of that now.
This is something I’m going to introduce to my Dr who is pushing me to take statins and also the specialist cholesterol clinic which I will eventually go to. They say it’s bad to have high cholesterol and needs urgent treatment but it’s like 9 months wait now for an appointment in the UK to see a specialist so not that urgent imo.
See B. Forette, et al Lancet 1989. “ Overall mortality was lowest at serum cholesterol at 270 mm.
I've had a heart attack and have 3 stents as a result, I have to believe that the human body when fed a natural whole food diet will heal itself. As far as I can tell all disease is caused by systemic inflammation and is the cause of 95% of all disease (including CVD). The inflammation is caused by diet. This experiment would not work the same on a person following the SAD.
your provocative presentation has lifted my spirits.L'm tired of being vilified by drug oriented health providers
I was hoping Nick would have a NMR test before and after. Did his LDL particles change size?
Without arterial lining damage who cares what the particle size is. But yeah that would be important to the particle size matters crowd.
My two favorite guys. Excellent discussion.
The purpose is to create some cognitive dissonance in the halls of academia.
It's not to question the oreo safety but to question the LDL safety
In my simple mind this study tells me your body knows what it’s doing. Feed it well….high LDL= healthy, feed it poorly ……low LDL= unhealthy.
@@rumproast5159that’s exactly the problem with these stunts: many completely misunderstand the meaning of the results.
@@Sobchak2 so…..what’s your takeaway from the stunt. Saturating the liver with sugar lowers LDL. I guess I assume wrongly that most people know medications poison a normal pathway in the body. Somehow statins mimic saturating the liver with glucose but not as well as the real deal. Or somehow interferes with the LDL cycle. My takeaway is to continue limiting refined sugars from the diet. Not the reverse.
@@rumproast5159 in this individual, who follows a high fat ketogenic diet, leaving a state of ketosis resulted in a significant drop of LDL-C levels.
"Saturating the liver" doesn't mean anything.
With statins you have two contrasting effects: one that keeps pushing your LDL-C levels over the rooftop, and the other, the statin, which reduces the endogenous synthesis of cholesterol.
Statins are hmg-coenzyme A reductase inhibitors, and by mimicking the structure of an intermediate in the biosynthesis of cholesterol they prevent its synthesis, mostly in the liver. They have nothing to do with sugars.
Thank Goodness there are Doctors like uou guy's. 🎉
So glad YOU did this! I would have gagged trying to eat that many cookies per day, not to mention the response in my blood sugar level.
Thank you!
I used to love tinned beetroot. After I remitted my diabetes by going low carb I decided to treat myself to some beetroot just for something different. I no longer liked it. However when I treated myself to some kiwi fruit (a tray of 5 or 6), they were very yummy but I was satisfied with only having one each day whereas before low carb I probably would have eating two at a time. I am also noticing that there are certain levels of sweetness of foods (sweetened with stevia) that make me want to keep eating them. I have made my own chocolate with coconut oil and cocoa powder with the second batch have double the amount of sweetener and I found it hard to stop eating it.
Yes. That’s food addiction. Sugar triggers our opiate sensors. Kelly Hogan, long time carnivore had the same problem and only carnivore fixed it.
It's not quite clear (to me) what you're saying here - beetroot is very sweet, kiwis are mostly acid to the point of disguising the sugar (like lemons) - except for golden kiwis (really sweet, less tartness from acidity). So I kinda get what you're saying, but not certain. ( As a carni, I can now taste very clearly a 0,.6,% sugar content in ham - it tastes disgustingly sweet. I haven't had beetroot in a while, but I used to like it (and prefer green kiwis to gold ones). So in my case, my senses are heightened, and sugar revolts me. Are you saying you still like it? Anyway, cheers! 😊
@@T-aka-T I'm noticing that there are foods that I used to like that I no longer find as enjoyable. Since changing to low carb my tastes have changed. I regularly make myself a mug cake and I started using 1 1/2 Tbl of sweetener, then found that too sweet and cut down to 1 and a bit and now I'm only using 1 Tbl. I've also started being very aware of what foods/sweetness level makes me want to eat more of that item.
@@jobrown8146 Has your sense of smell got very keen as well? I smell things now that others can't. Also, I pick up mail from a post office opposite a Red Rooster chicken place - the stench of (I suppose oxidised) seed oils is revolting - same with fish & chip shops etc. I can't IMAGINE how I once thought fried chips would be nice to eat. Interesting shifts we experience, eh?
@@T-aka-T I've always had a strong sense of smell, especially of artificial smells (I think they contain smell enhancers like food has MSG a flavour enhancer) and can smell neighbour's washing on their clothes line (1/5 acre block of land in Australia), and car scents when I'm in car parks and people open their car doors. Yes, it is interesting the shifts we experience. Mine is more of a mental thing where now when I see food I think in terms of how much sugar/carbs is in it. Before I would look at items in the grocery store and think in terms of how yummy I could remember them being but because I am more educated now it not how something tastes but how it is going to affect me. I'm going to be having ground beef with eggs mixed in for my dinner tonight with zucchini. Looking forward to it.
the point you guys are mising is the LMHR studies shows that LDL is not the independent varisble it is thought to be. for example it might be more important to how the LDL is lowered than that it was lowered. We need to reopen the research and quit the LDL is bad. most docs are lazy.
Wow Mondelez International (not Nabisco anymore) needs to apply for that Heart Healthy label for their concoction of seed oils and sugar.
Refer them to Tufts. They advertise for industry "partners" on their home page. In effect, "please send money. We have proved our carby bona fide. "
I applaud you for having the courage to be provocative. Some others have asked about if you tracked your blood sugars. Would it have been informative to also track your insulin levels?
That's what is going to happen I predict. The research has to move forward now. It just does. Anyone that tries to discredit this demonstration or the LMHR studies will down the road look ridiculous for doing so. I can't wait! I mean for the results of the upcoming studies and the conclusion of the LMHR study. Not for the critics looking ridiculous.
The medical profession and big pharma’ have been doubling down on some pretty insubstantial data (but loads of it) to support the Lipid Heart Hypothesis for decades. They will not go down without a massive fight. This and any follow-on studies will be ignored or ridiculed for a long time to come. The dogma-driven main stream medics will respond thus: “this is exactly what we would have expected. This proves keto, very low carb’ diets, elevate LDL (the bad cholesterol), even cookies are healthier than a ketogenic diet. A study of only 4.7-years isn’t long enough to show the convincing progression of atherosclerosis as CAD is a function of both high LDL (high ApoB) and exposure time.”
I tend to agree...
Well, I, for one, am totally looking forward to some of the critics looking ridiculous.
@@carnivorehippie8071 😂
I read some of the comments of Nick's discussion with Dr. Willett on the Plant Chompers channel. Their are still people their insisting the cholesterol and saturated fat causes heart disease. I think that it will take decades to change the paradigm.
Why would anyone want to reduce the amount of Low Density Lipoprotein nutrient transporters in the first place? The liver makes them for a reason: to transport nutrients. Guess what happens if that is artificially reduced...
@Metabolic Mind As an academic specializing in human biology and chemistry, I feel compelled to address the recent discourse initiated by Mr. Norwitz. While his revelations may seem less groundbreaking to those well-versed in our field, it is crucial to elucidate the biochemical intricacies at play.
Fundamentally, in the absence of a threshold carbohydrate intake, glycogen stores deplete, prompting the liver to initiate gluconeogenesis, mobilizing fat for energy. This metabolic shift elevates LDL levels, acting as metaphorical garbage trucks transporting surplus oxidized particles to the liver. Conversely, reintroducing carbohydrates replenishes glycogen stores, leading to a decline in LDL levels.
This dynamic interplay underscores the importance of discerning the nuanced relationship between dietary choices and metabolic responses, dispelling the notion of Mr. Norwitz's revelations as irrelevant and highlighting the evolutionary significance of glycogen storage in the liver.
LOL, I had the same thought. I can see Nabisco or some cookie company advertising how healthy eating their Oreo cookies are. See, they lower your LDL cholesterol. You know there are people out there that will believe it. That's why there's a warning label on hair dryers to not use in the shower or bath.
That’s the way the cookies crumble! 🤣😇❤️🇨🇦
Keto has almost cured me of anxiety and PTSD. The side effect seems to be it fixed my ADD as well my focus and concentration is 100% better.
Please email us at info@metabolicmind.org if you are interested in sharing your story. Congratulations on your success!
I always knew oreo's were healthy 😮
Thanks Bob the welder
@@250txc This was a JOKE
As if we needed a study confirming this! Pffft!
This study was not paid by oreo, trust me dude.
@@manekedark it was a joke!
I recall reading 20 or more years ago -- having no citation because I don't feel like researching what might since have been hidden -- that for every five percentage points that pharmaceutical companies insisted that LDL must be lowered, the industry generated a billion bucks.
Could the emotional roller coaster have been related to a blood glucose roller coaster? The magnitude of the BG roller coaster does not have to be huge in order to generate effect.
Like Nick, I have high LDL, low triglycerides, high HDL low BMI, a1c of 5.2. Been on a ketovore diet for almost two years. 73 years old. Where should I get health advice from? My cardiologist fights me every year to take a statin. I took them for years, but got off of them two years ago. Total cholesterol is in low 400s.
Dr Cyves has a good podcast on lean mass hyper responders, particularly Dr. Paul Saladino. LDL comes down very rapidly on about 50 g of carbs a day if I recall. Saladino chose to eat fruit. But the video will help. It is recent. In the last couple of months.
@@davidgmillsatty1900 Thank you! I'll look it up and watch.
Really hope Malaysian Ministry of Health upper echelons watch & understand this.
So you're an unreconstructed optimist ...😂
The cholesterol numbers paradox is interesting, but will you be having a coronary calcium scan and a dopler of the corotids and posting the results?
I don't think LMHR is a thing. I think that this is a normal function that applies to all. The lower our triglycerides in our blood and stores means that we will need more VLDL to find any available triglycerides. The problem is that there are so few people that are lean and doing low carb that they seem to be an exception.
I’d suggest that what you were experiencing “on Oreos” was more akin to PMS, not a period.
I assume there was something absent that is a pretty big part of a period.
I am slightly outside the lmhr numbers at ldl 258 hdl 78 tri 101. But the Dr's keep trying to get me on a level 40 statin and I keep saying no. Been eating less carbs for 40 years and have great health.
Okay, but what did it do to your VLDL, Triglycerides, Lipo a, APO b, CRP, uric acid, Blood sugar and HgbA1c???? And what was your wash-out protocol? Also did you account for the high fat content in the filling as the actual component that produced this effect. I will read the study because there seem to be several confounding variables at work here. And it's pronounced "Hila, not Hard g, gila.
The washout period was 3 months. BUT - do you want answers, or RU just chucking rocks? I'm sure the info is available if you actually look/ask, rather than appear to be just sniping from the comments section. 😮
Kudos to Dr. Norwitz. This is like David vs. GOLIATH.
I can't wait to see the next Oreo commercials.
My Doc saw my ldl hyper response from my keto diet, intermittant Fasting and daily cardio .He tried to statin-ise me .I then learned that I have the Triad of lipids , low bmi and pre-keto normal ldl amounts .... fulfilling the " lean mass hyper response " criteria . I may go back to my Doc in 2 weeks with 'normal' ldl amounts and tell him I just ate a packet of oreos each day, (just to see the expression on his face ).
IMHO, Dear Norwitz and Feldman,, et al. >>>To get through to lay people, please explain these two items carefully each time: 1. LMHR's, and how they are like genetically engineered mice which allow us to study particular effects. AND 2. What exactly is the Lipid Energy Model. I hear "LMHR" and "Lipid Energy Model" glossed over in every discussion on this subject. It has taken me at least 10 RUclips vids on this topic to understand the LEM, and why LMHR are ideal for the experiment you did and the the related papers recently published.
Can you explain?
Did you good to do some of your own research and now you're really across it, right? 😊
Wish there were this type of answer to me raising my low HDL !
Interesting. My LDL was really up being on keto and low carb. I added extra carbs in my diet and my next LDL test showed it went down. It was really strange that carbs can decrease the cholesterol. This reminds me of eating oatmeal can lower cholesterol. The real issue is for how long it can do it or if there is a ceiling for carbs to do that. Also this may demonstrate lowering LDL but may affect the triglycerides negatively.
Please do not eat mixed carbs and fats! This could disrupt the Randle cycle in your cells, creating high blood glucose and causing damage to many systems. LDL has never once been causally linked to atherosclerosis, regardless of what the medical establishment keeps pushing.
Maybe stop eating Keto - which is crap?
@@MichaelGGarry no, that's gorillas. They eat their crap. We don't. We eat the way our ancestors did. Meat.
So which part of the oreo lowered ldl, center white soft part or hard brown cover buscuits?😂or it has to be combination? And branded oreo. If it is orion but same material, does it make difference?
That’s correct about GLP-1 agonists.
So the next steps in this research are to test it for a longer period of time.
Possibly in six weeks periods with the Oreos, is it an anomaly?
Or a possible solution for many?
Etc..,
Thank you
It’s a prank! Doctors and academics have known for decades that switching from low carb no-carb diet to higher carb will drop cholesterol for many. This experiment is only surprising to the internet diet crowd, but not the MDs or PhDs that actually work in this area. Yes, longer times on moderate or high carb would be expected to sustain the benefits he saw in the short term.
You should have test: hdl, homocisteine and fasting insulin
He did test HDL. It went up.
@@johnow7 vldl ? Really strange that hdl went up with this type of product. Thanks
@@il3mendo Well he was already doing keto. He just added the Oreos to it.
@@johnow7 It seems that his metabolic health is really good.
Last time when I reintroduced complex carb my glucose level reached 250.
I am metabolic compromized due to some illnessess. Thank you
What about Oreo cookies effects on Apo B ?
Take that! Thomas Dayspring.
So what would happen with a metabolically UNHEALTHY person on SAD with high LDL, consuming Oreo cookies?
That’s the next test. This is just the beginning.
My thought: their trigs would go up and their HDL go down. No thoughts on the LDL though.
They would become even more metabolically UNHEALTHY, it’s the easiest prediction to make
Nothing. They are already eating that many grams of carbs.
Myocardial infarction? Or - just another couple of kilos of visceral fat in waiting. I want to add a grinning face here but it seems kinda churlish / Schadenfreude.
Oh, what the heck. 😁
I don’t even know, the doc says Keto is for healing these issues, and not necessarily a replacement for a standard diet, but it seems like their should be be more investigation into keto or low carb being the preferred diet. Just look at the American public walking around for a while, seems apparent their are some issues with the standard of eating
Can I use Chips Ahoy instead to lower my LDL? Thanks
did he eat only oreos for 2 weeks ?
I wonder if it is the habit of snacking?
So does this mean Oreo cookies will be $30 each now.
If general practitioners don't buy in..... it won't help me, nor others... if you believe this phenotype is so rare, then doctors who hardly ever see this phenotype won't give a ....
Starting tomorrow, I am going full blown oreo cookie diet. Like you, I am a LMHR, so if it worked for you, there is no reason it shouldn’t work for me. I am very confident in your finding and sure it will work for me too. Thanks for sharing
You can add a sweet potato instead of cookies and get a similar result.
Nick was not correct in thinking there was a possibility of the media would pick this up. An extreme percentage of advertising revenue is from the pharmaceutical industry. They heavily influence the news. Robert Kennedy has shared his story regarding this.
I think triglycerides and LDL are two different things. Please clarify, are they the same or not?
You are correct that LDL and triglycerides are different. LDL is a type of cholesterol particle whereas triglycerides are lipids or fats.
So, we can conclude from this study that oreos are safer and more effective way of treating high ldl than statins?
Nick be nimble! Nick be jacked! 😮
Wait, isn’t it a high LDL cholesterol level good for our bodies’ organs functioning?
Man, I have been eating Oreos for the last week. Nothing's changed. I think my cholesterol is worse. What the.....
What is it in Oreos that make it a powerful agent in LMHR to lower LDL. Is it the carbs? I guess so because that’s all that they are. Carbs and fat. Fat is s in a keto diet already. So how many carbs per day? Is it linear? Lea carbs less reduction of LDL?
Yes, presumably it is the carbs, so his body burns glucose and doesn't need to traffic triglycerides for energy,
My brain is fine. The speed of light C isn’t constant since the measures of time and distance aren’t constant. Changing from 60 kilometers an hour to 60 miles an hour changes your speed. Then if you go from 60 miles an hour to 60 miles a minute it increases your speed again. This what is happening in general relativity when less gravity increases the measure of distance and speeds up the rate of time over large distances. My head works fine.
I had two pieces keto Oreo chaffles today. Now I’m uncomfortably hyper bloated. Seriously 😢
Cheerios or Oreo cookies may not reduce LDL in non LMHR individuals.
To me a point that comes out of this, is that doctors shouldn’t be pushing LMHR or patients trending this way to use statins without more information. Many doctors threaten patients with noncompliance and discontinuing care if the don’t use statins. I am a DC, CCN and a LMHR. Patients can eat a sweet potato every day and see the same thing
Beyond doing a test on a hyper responder and comparing results from Oreo’s to statins this experiment really isn’t new or surprising. What about Mark Haub’s Twinkie diet in 2010 that caught media attention. Walter Kemper’s rice diet is over 80 years old. His rice diet clinic still exists today.
@4:18 *Four times* as effective: Twice the reduction in LDL in half the time.
It does not mean that you should be eating Oreo's but if your life insurance company is using your high LDL to reject you for a policy because of your LDL marker flags you as "high risk" for CVD then you might be justified as an LMHR to eat a bunch of Oreos right before you get your blood work done so as to game the "system" that is using the "system" against you.
Why would you want to lower LDL?
Because they say so, even though they know it's not casual...
Exactly @@BRunner12
So interesting and potential route to more curiosity is true. Unfortunately I think terribly naive thinking which has erupted from good intentions... that is age and smarts and only wisdom comes from experience. Respect Nick and so pleased this up and coming bright mind is sharing his talent but caution for the best interests of others is more needed... challenge academia... Sorry I listened and so great BUT in my view not thought out to the wider audience... FIRST DO NO HARM. Keep your curiosity alive and the thrill of knowledge but caution ... your seasoned 75 self will thank you. All the best!
Result of the study - People on a keto diet benefit from some carbs. People on a keto diet long term develop high cholesterol. Take statins, or add some carbs and get away from ketosis.
Well @john, that's not what he'd say. (As an aside, as much as I'd like the supposed benefits of keto, I don't think I could do it. I think I'd feel gross a lot of the time. It's not a diet as popular with women as it is with men.) He'd say that the high levels of LDL just reflect the TRANSIT of the lipoprotein, not the build up of it.
If you are severely carb depleted there will be massive response to any carbs
So, you went Keto (lowering your carb consumption) and your LDL went up. Then you went off Keto (by consuming 100g more of carbs per day) and your LDL went down. Why is this news?
Oh, THAT's why most kids don't get heart attacks . . . they eat Oreo Cookies and Twinkies.
I tried to think of the least destructive carb, something I loved from my childhood (Sta Puft marshmallow man knocks at door)
OK is this surprising at all? Like is it just me or is there a massive lack of scientific literacy and overblown sensationalism running around the comments.
Like I understand the point of being disruptive and doing things in the literature to make a point, but from the comments alone you can tell this is being misinterpreted pretty heavily, and the case report is intentionally styled to do that.
People with high LDL and accompanying CVD comorbidities are going to look at this as an excuse to refuse statins or changes to their diet. Come on now.
Why conclude Oreos are unhealthy just based on "trust me bro, it's common sense", why not test it? There was a professor in the 2000s that went on an all Twinkies diet plus 1 multi-vitamin a day to lose weight. He not only lost a lot of weight, every health metric like colesterol improved.
So, is he saying that very high LDL cholesterol is not harmful in lean responders on a keto diet?
did not say that
@@nicknorwitzPhD Hey, great to hear from you. I know you didn't say that but I'm really curious to know if you think that a keto diet is problematic for you or whether you think it's healthy despite the high LDL. Slight digression, but do you think that the Inuit having evolved to avoid ketosis even when eating what would be a ketogenic diet for most other people, suggests that ketosis is not great for human health long term.
I recall a Korean study with a cohort of millions plus another study that show higher LDL correlates with lower all-cause mortality. One might conclude that LDL is protective.
@@michaeljohnson3383 For the former, I think it's possible that the LMHR phenotype is lower risk than many might think. But I don't have the data to claim that and, therefore, aim to provoke questions and pursue those data. Re Inuit, no... I wouldn't interpret it like that
@@nicknorwitzPhD Thank you for the reply - very interesting re the LMHR phenotype. I'd also be interested in your APOB levels as a LMHR on a keto diet - if you discuss that on any of your videos. Really appreciate your taking the time to reply.
When I was young I was eating ton of cookies, pies pizzas etc. and my cholesterol was always low, now at older age it's not the case. Simple
Is it the biscuit, or the disgusting cream??
More data required.
R
Gonna eat them for breakfast, lunch and dinner. My guess is the chocolate Oreo has more antioxidants than the golden Oreo’s.😅
As you age your cells won't have the same capability to absorb LDL so you'll have excess floating around your blood stream. I'd like to see him repeat this when he's 60.
Big deal… I dropped my LDL from 238 to 65 using the old school Pritikin diet after being low carb, high fat for years… zero drugs.
Is that low protein?
The whole grains, vegetables and legumes in the Pritikin diet are loaded with oxalates, lectins (including gluten) and phytates, which are anti-nutrients and can cause inflammation. Keto and carnivore are much healthier.
Your condition is not rare. You’re not LMHR. If you were metabolically healthy, the 238 LDL was likely not risky either. But standard of care doesn’t recognize metabolic health as a factor. Studies done with those with familial hypercholesterolemia showed that the high LDL was in many cases fatal for those with F8 clotting factors. Those without the clotting factors lived normal lives with super high LDL.
But Nick lowered his while still eating his regular keto diet. Not the same
There was a Swedish study following over 44K seniors 65-99 years of age over a 35 year period. All of those who made it to 100 years old had high cholesterol. Brag all that you want.
How’d he get his LDL over 400?!
LMHR
@@metabolicmind did you lose a lot of weight leading up to the study?
He has been in ketosis for a long time and has been thin, athletic, and weight stable.
Can a diebetic use sugar free oreos
We don't recommend that anyone eats Oreos! As Nick said, he did this to prove a point and does not recommend that anyone try it themselves. We agree :)
Let's move that cognitive dissonance to the people taking statins and the doctors prescribing them.
What are you taking about? Oreo and sugary cereals are super healthy
I would like to know if during the “Oreo fase” he maintained the same amount of saturated fat he was eating before.
During both phases he continued eating his normal ketogenic diet while adding Oreos or statins.
@@johnow7 yes. I saw in another video. He said he kept everything just added 12 Oreos per day. Thanks anyway
384 LDL to start? Seems fishy something is not right. 384 LDL at his age and body mass, seems like he might have another underlining issue that they have not found the cause yet. N=1 means very little in science and only further makes my point stand... two things that i am thinking 1: he has a major underligning issue or 2: he took something to inflate his cholesterol before he started the diet...
He fits the criteria for a "Lean Mass Hyper Responder." Here is an article describing it and the proposed mechanism. cdn.nutrition.org/article/S2475-2991(22)00007-5/fulltext
@@metabolicmind Thanks for the article, but only 1 had higher LDL and that was a guy who was 69. His age is
@@johnjay6370 You are over thinking it. The LMHR study currently underway consist of 50 people with about 4 years on average on the keto diet, 55 years average age, and, of course, all with high cholesterol. Despite their age, this phenotype (high HDL >80, high LDL >200, low triglycerides
Take the bananas out of your smoothie and substitute Oreo cookies.