All I know is that at Warp, the window of contact where the weapons can hit the target must be very small. Hence you can get hit, wait a minute for the ship to turn around, get hit again. It's a great way to have conversations a plan your next move during battle. Unlike battles that occur at sublight.8
@@711desmond Yes but they also declared that that wasn't something which should have been possible. I attribute that to the Kelvin timeline using a different type of warp tech
@@MatthewCaunsfield It still amazes me how Hollywood can give us shit we don’t want over and over and over in lieu of just giving us what we want.... regular, good-ole fashioned Star Trek in the prime universe sans any of the added garbage.
The attacking Orion ship was a special variant, and I suspect the people responsible for designing its drive were on board in order to babysit the system. That would mean that they died when the ship was destroyed, and so we never see further versions of this ship in the canon. A similar situation would occur years later in "Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country". The Klingons would field a warship capable of firing weapons while being cloaked, but we never see this variant again. I suspect that, for security reasons, the scientists and engineers who devised this capability were on Chang's ship, and were therefore killed when the ship was destroyed. And yes, I am considering the possibility that copies of the development files remained behind on the Orion and Klingon homeworlds. But we can then debate (and I would welcome discussion) how paranoid and distrustful the Orions and the Klingons were.
I would also add, bad at paperwork. I got a prisoner intake form that's just a splatter of blood and what looks like gagh smeared on it like a finger painting by a toddler, that says "p'tahk". Instead of filing it in my inbox, it was shoved in the mouth of said prisoner's disembodied head, before being thrown through my office window. It's the third time this week.
The part worth really questioning here, is who ordered this "enterprise killer" to be built? The orian syndicate is definitely a power in the quadrant, but a minor one, and they tend to avoid commiting acts of war against the quadrant's super powers like the UFP and Klingon Empire. So there is an unknown third party involved. With Undiscovered Country, we have all the answers by the end, but in Journey to Babel, we hardly know any more than we started with at the end.
@@Mephilis78 Would it be possible that the syndicate had this vessel in reserve in the event that an opportunity for a major beneficial strike occurred, and the Babel conference regarding the Coridan system was such an opportunity? Especially with so many delegates in one place? I'm also willing to bet that the syndicate had a spy in more than one delegation, delivering lucrative information back to the syndicate.
From watching the episode, it's clear there was no issue with phasers needing to breach warp bubbles or any such technobabble. Rather, the Orion ship is explicitly stated to be moving _too fast_ for Enterprise to hit. Going with Occam's Razor, the Enterprise can hit objects at warp, but not targets moving as fast as Warp 10.
My initial thought was, "Of course you can't fire phasers at warp. That's what torpedoes are for!" But the concept of matching warp factor really does make the idea work. If we treat it as each warp factor is a "layer" of subspace further down than the previous, then you would need to be in the same x.0-x.9 range, and probably would need to be within a certain distance so the phaser doesn't "dissipate" after leaving your warp field and before reaching the opponent's warp field. This also allows you to overtake a ship you're charging from behind and start speeding up afterward. Doing maneuvers at warp though, that's a trickier bit to accept given post-TOS works. It could be adjusting the output of a warp grille by sections so the field acts a bit like a rudder or elevator at warp speeds, while maneuvering thrusters might not be powerful enough alone at warp speeds? And it's possible that warp maneuvers was a thing pioneered during the cold war with the Klingons that doesn't work above certain speeds, and ended up largely forgotten in the Lost Era/TNG as speeds rose ever higher and peace was more commonplace. You could call it warp compressibility, much like the high-speed compressibility issues planes can have. You know, basically once you go fast enough, the air flow compresses so much that the flight controls lock up. Could be a similar issue with high warp speeds. Of course, the idea of warp speed representing subspace layers could get confusing given the warp scale restructuring between TOS and TNG. Overall, really nice work and quite thought provoking from a lore perspective.
@@ashlevrier Played SFB when I was in the Navy, where I devised a way to greatly streamline game play. The ship charts were divided into six sections, each one representing the structures and systems that faced each side of that ship's game board hex. Rather than rolling for hits, the damage dealt would be chosen by the receiving party, but confined to the zone facing the incoming fire (unless all boxes in that zone were blacked, then you would proceed to the opposite side.) It was great for visualizing such scenes as the dis-masting of Reliant by Enterprise, which was the hottest thing in theaters stateside. Of course when we got back to dry land we forgot about the game, and discovered booze and girls, but those were some times. Good God, I'm old.
In the James Blish books Kirk makes the point in his back and forth with the Orion assassin that no captain with all of the VIP's on board would leave himself defenseless. And he has a point I think. After all he had a lot of high level federation delegates on board. Also I think this is one of those times when Kirk had the ability on an instinctive level to get a feel for the character of his opponent and act based on that. He had no idea the the ship attacking him was only meant for one mission, but he guessed they'd want to savor the kill. He gambled on their enjoyment of the death of the Enterprise and want to enjoy that. One thing I would have liked to see in this episode was Kirk and Sarek going head to head in a game of chess.
I like your reasoning. With the Orion spy on the bridge, Kirk had the "face" and mindset of his opponent. An advantage the commander of the Orion vessel didn't possess.
Fun fact: The Enterprise herself actually reached Warp 10+ at least twice. Once during the episode with Nomad and once during “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.” However, this is dangerous as the ship isn’t built to handle that kind of speed. Anyway, great vid!
That doesn't fit with TNG 'canon' does it? In TNG/Voyager, Warp 9.9 is approx 1000 x lightspeed IIRC, so same as TOS. Also, Voyager was said to be thrown 70,000 light years across the galaxy. It was also said to be 70 years from home. So again, at Voyager's fast cruise of about Warp 9.9, that's about 70,000 light years in 70 years. Finally, Janeway describes 'Kirk's ship' as being "half as fast" as her own. This also suggests the same 'Warp Scale' because: Warp 8 = 8 cubed = 512 x lightspeed. Warp 9.9 = 9.9 cubed = 970 x lightspeed (almost twice as fast). It all fits, doesn' it?
@@moorhen6156 But (bear with me here) can you square this 'technical manual' with Janeway's statement (ships half as fast) and the idea of being 70,000 light years thus 70 years from home?
@@moorhen6156 So - how long should it have taken to reach Federation Space at warp 9.9? What is the formula for Velocity as a function of Warp Factor in TNG cannon?
I love this analysis. For me, the original series and SFB are the most accurate Star Treks. Give me D7s that fire disruptors and Orions with custom built ships!
Probably the optimum turn rate speed for a Connie, one that combines the smallest circle with the highest speed, to turn inside, and get around behind your foe.
@@FusionAero Yeah. Though, in another episode it was even established that the Enterprise uses the warpdrive to turn on place which I liked and makes sense. It uses the warp effect to not just move forward, but in general. In said episode, they were a sitting duck and only had navigational thrusters, which were much slower without an active warp field^^
@@Gosti85 Available speed range is another thing that makes a certain speed "optimum". From Warp 2 you can either quickly accelerate out of weapons range, or suddenly decelerate into a spinning bootleg turn, and bring your forward torpedo tubes unexpectedly to bear, having just dodged an inbound disruptor volley with an equally unexpected burn-out. It's called the Kirk Manever, and it may well be the reason the the Crown Prince of Troyyus has absolutely no blue in his complexion. (Loved that episode)
7:55 - I suppose they could if, IF, like the theory of the Plasma Torpedo traveling at Warp being caught in the warp bubble. With that in mind, since Photon Torpedoes only have warp stabilizers, they'd end up getting caught in the warp bubble, then sure they could buuut... Not too likely I guess. In a way, that happens a lot in STO when enemies decide to warp out of TFO's because of a timer ran out and the Photon Torpedo initially tries to follow them. This was amazingly animated. You've gotten really good at 3D Modelling and animated. Wish I had that determination but I keep getting sidelined by 3000 "musts" and stuff in the way. Great video!
STO also revisited the events of Journey to Babel. The reason the ship exploded after just one hit was due to the Na'kuhl bomb that they had tried to plant on the Enterprise and was instead beamed aboard the Orion vessel, which also prevented any further contamination of the timeline (though Scotty did end up picking up Chekov's temporal transponder).
I’m not sure about the spikey “teeth” from the ring to the hull, but your design is still 1,000% better than the SFB design of Orion ships. Everytime I watch one of your videos with the Enterprise I desperately want to get a TOS version kit. But I’d then be adding it to a rather embarrassingly large pile of models I’ve already got. 🤷♂️
Yo! The ships look really cool. I wonder of you could do a small fan film with the ships fighting ( enterprise, and maybe a romulan or Gorn ship) some audio conversations for good measure😄
@@resurrectedstarships CBS not inviting Axanar and others in the fan community to participate as part of the Web/Online experience was idiotic and lost the company a lot of good will, not to mention free publicity. Sigh.
@@pauld6967 right on Paul. 80% of the vids by fans are better than the drool star trek has become. I just know this guy here and a few others would do an awesome job making something. One they know trek and how it should be and they have the passion to make it right! Oh well, take care bro
I haven't seen this episode or the conclusion of this video before realizing that dropping out of warp would've been the best decision to avoid destruction. As you pointed out, the Orion ship made a mistake engaging outside of warp. If both ships fought optimally, they would've been at a standstill. The Federation ship would've dropped out of warp to recharge shields & damage control. The Orion ship would've waited for the Federation ship to re-enter warp, and cool warp coils before starting harassing the Federation ship once again. Ultimately, I believe the Orion ship would've won. A single direct hit at a critical system/life support/food supply would've been the deciding factor after doing that dance a few times.
I’ve actually saved this video. The ST Vs SW debate is officially Over! with ST FTL maneuvering and combat finally being recognized! Thank You @Resurected Starships! I knew you could do it!
if you match the speed, there's a chance you can make the warp bubbles combine, thus giving you a clear shot, though it probably would take more than a second or two for stabilization (at point blank range no less) or they both get punched out of warp at the best of outcomes... Subatomic goo being one of the worse. Ships extending their warp bubble to disabled vessels is well documented in beta canon, tos, and current tech exposes, weaponizing such a trick wouldn't be much of a stretch. Good visual on it though.
7:36 wait why would anyone think Photon torpedos don't work at warp? One example of them being used in warp is the Encounter with the J25 borg cube. I know it's not a TOS example but still...
well they have to be fired when your at warp for it to go warp speeds but the thing is they can stay at those speeds but that can't speed up or slow down and a weapons bridge tectal officer would have to calculate where and when to fire the torpedo at the target to directly hit or indirectly hit via a timed delay photon torpedo detonation area of effect when it near the target by the time its close enough!
@@ashtiboy I know, but my point is that in every series up to enterprise have battle scenes with photon torpedoes being used in Warp speeds. Why would anyone doubt that?
Interesting to see the old 'rocket' nacelles on the Enterprise here. They were later changed when the entire idea of what 'warp' did was better codified, although in-universe the explanation was to allow greater room for warp coils inside.
SFB explained this away by establishing that the Orions can temporarily double the output of their warp reactors at the expense of damaging the reactor.
@@BoydofZINJ I never even saw any Trek (besides TAS when I was little) before I played SFB. The SFU is the Star Trek I grew up on. Everything else is alternate universes
I remember reading in a few of the novels that for warp combat to happen, the ships need to close and "synchronize warp fields" or something like that. Which seems to me like the warp bubbles around each ship are merged in order to fire.
I like that classic Trek writers understood the real story behind the Tower of Babel. That it wasn’t about reaching the heavens that disturbed god, it’s was humans working together and doing great things. That’s why god fractured human languages, to prevent humans from working together and making such great things ever again. That sentiment was the heart of this episode, of outside forces sowing confusion among various cultures because they are afraid of what could be done if those cultures cooperated together.
Except that it is nearly a direct copy of an episode from the 50s kids space show, "Rocky Jones Space Ranger". It is possible that the writers imagined some Sumerian analogy, but is is much more likely this is just the same play, slightly matured, with more of the corn removed. Elan of Troyus (forgive the spelling guess) was also borrowed from Rocky Jones, which was borrowed from The Taming of the Shrew....later Atomic Shakespeare in 1986. The title however is the exact opposite of the Helen of Troy motifs as her marriage would stop war, not cause it. If I would hazard a guess, you may be applying a motive to the writers that is not established, though a very Gilgamesh poetic one, as various reasons can employ the name Babel for multilingual things. Babel Fish Babel websites Babel training disks
@@STho205 I take it you never saw the Rocky Jones Space Ranger episode “silver needle in the sky” aka “the duel”? Journey to Babel is inspired by this episode sure, but in no way was it a direct copy. The main plot of The Duel was about Cleolata taking some ambassadors hostage in an attempted prisoner exchange. She has two captured agents that she wants back, so she abducts the ambassadors on a space station while Rocky is away on another planet. There is also a sub plot about some of Cleolata’s agents looking for a promotion. So one of them traps everyone on the space station and cuts off the oxygen to kill them all after the prisoner exchange. The plots of the two episodes are not the same. Only the most basic premise of “an intercultural peace conference is attacked by an outside force for the benefit of those opposed to those at the conference” is applicable. Which is a story as old as time really. Nothing new. The main plot of Journey to Babel is about a false flag operation in order to derail the conference. Not a prisoner exchange like in The Duel. Journey to Babel is definitely inspired by The Duel but they are not the same on most levels, plot, characters, motives and events are all very different. Having seen both I can see what was used to inspire a different story in Trek, but don’t be mistaken, they are very different stories. The plot line of Cleolata’s subordinates fighting each other for greater prestige upon return was turned into a double agent plot with the fake Andorian in Journey to Babel(JtB). The plot line to sabotage Rocky’s ship before take off was changed to an assassination implicating Sarek. The dialogue line about Cleolata’s agent’s ship keeping on the edge of sensor range until Rocky left was used as a main tactic by the Orion ship in JtB. The plot line of Dr.Titan using a suspended animation capsule on himself was changed to be the double agent taking a slow release poison to kill himself in JtB. Even the names “Silver Needle in the Sky” and “The Duel” were used to inspire the interaction with the unknown enemy ship in JtB. The titles were used to inspire so well that JtB has more plot elements justifying those two names than the Rocky Jones Space Ranger episode does. Bobby definitely inspired Wesley Crusher, I mean the leave it to beaver Boy Scout attitude and… the hair. The plot about a Max/Min’ed space ship confusing the sensors and being unable to hit wasn’t in The Duel. The plot about a main character’s medical emergency needing surgery, substantial blood transfusion and how that effects who is in command of the ship after captain is still recovering from a stab wound is entirely new to JtB. The need for the conference being, the procuring of a strategic resource(dilithum)so an enemy power doesn’t get it is entirely new. Kirk’s lame duck maneuver to win final the duel wasn’t in The Duel. The plot line about an estranged child reuniting with his family was entirely new. In almost every way JtB was better written and more complex than The Duel. Literally nothing was directly copied. As for the Tower of Babel story, have you not read the bible? It’s a bible story. Sure, Nimrod from the bible is seen as Gilgamesh by some but it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison. My main point was that the Tower of Babel story in modern times is mistakenly described as “angering god because humans were trying to get to heaven” when that wasn’t the biblical reason for god confusing human languages. Nimrod built the Tower to escape a second global flood, not to reach heaven. God saw an attempt to escape punishment as disturbing so he confounded human speech so humans could never try such hubris of escaping punishment ever again. The plot point of “causing confusion and distrust in a group that you don’t want working together” was the reason the episode is named “Journey to Babel”. As the usage of “Babel” is about different cultures being able to understand each other and work together, not simply being multilingual. Babel is associated with translation or learning a new language. It’s not a synonym for multilingual. To paraphrase your quote “If I were to hazard a guess, you may be applying a motive to me that is not established.” The biblical history and meaning of the Tower of Babel is well established. The usage of “Babel” in JtB is well placed in regards to the plot. That was my point. You on the other hand have not shown your work, you just vaguely disagreed instead. So, have you ever even watched an episode of Rocky Jones Space Ranger?
@@ManicPandaz I did see it. Did you bother typing all that or did you paste it from a plot summary. The Orville also borrowed elements from it, and borrows several elements from the series for the setup of their show, just as Roddenberry did for his. Star Trek's first set director was the set director on Rocky Jones. He had a girlfriend named Vina in a skimpy dress and the helmsman and navigator sat behind an astrogator console looking at a video screen with series blinking lights below it. Nearly a dead ringer for the two pilots. Oh there was an elevator with shhhishing double doors right behind the captain.
A lot of ST writers were scientologists, inspired by Scientology and long dismissed heretical Gnostic, Arian, Maricon ideas, ....or hung out with Hubbard as Roddenberry did. He was quite popular in the 60s. This applies to Ellison, Dorothy Fontana and several other repeat scripters. Scientology is spread all through ST (later ones too) and many SF works of the era. Engrams, Thetans, Aeons, Archons, Daemons, the ships... The IDIC is an existing Dianetics Scientology broach Roddenberry borrowed, pinned on Nimoy without warning, wrote in some lines day of shooting and had mass produced for his fan collectibles catalog he was creating in 68 for the upcoming afternoon syndication. He knew the show would run at least three years in early 1967 when Desilu sold under a contention that at least 75 episodes would would be sold into syndication by 1970 and Roddenberry was on the deal. Kept it a secret too to keep salaries in check, and kept "fighting cancelation"...he knew would not happen. Solow revealed that tidbit in the early 90s. So take care with "revealed truth" as most of it...if it appears classic... is steeped in Hollywood Fads.
Excellent analysis. This kind of thinking is what made classic trek great. Yes, Babel is one of the top Trek episodes of all time, woth so many firsts and trek lore creation. Demonstrates all the Best of trek, and how to do a top notch trek episode. Also noteworthy for Shatner doing his own stunts with the Andorian fight. Drop kick off the wall for the win?
Definitely enjoying that ship design you made. I also agree with what you said about the Constitution class being very tough to be during the TOS era. Each era of Starfleet is defined by what I call their "Big Bruiser": the class of ship that can take a hit, smile, then punch you right back harder. The Constitution, Excelsior, Galaxy, and Sovereign all fit this description. Each one had the oomph of their respective eras, but when more advanced ships became available, here comes a new Big Bruiser from Starfleet. It's also worth noting that, at least from my observation, the Big Bruiser also obtains an Enterprise. By that logic, I guess the Ambassador class would've been its era's Big Bruiser? *shrugs* Speculations aside, love the these videos. Always interesting to see a breakdown of some of the more famous fights from the TOS Era.
The Orion ship might have been desperate for the opportunity to drop out of warp, too. The thing was probably running within a hair's breadth of overheating, frying components, or just plain blowing itself up at any given moment. It was souped up to the maximum of what was possible to achieve for a ship that size at that point in the tech of most of the Federation-adjacent (or Federation) societies. If they believed they had disabled the Enterprise, they might have been thinking "Hey, we can let the coils have a break, pound this un-shielded hunk of metal to slag, and slow-roll on home. We might actually live through this!"
The warp sustaining coils in a photon (or quantum) torpedo allow it to essentially snag a little sub-pocket of the warp bubble the ship is generating and keep it stable for a short time. They can't create on themselves, nor enhance the existing one they pick up. If they couldn't, they'd drop out of warp as soon as they got clear of the ship's warp bubble and the ship, if it had fired them forward, would basically immediately run into its own torpedoes. They'd have to be rear-firing only, like dropping depth charges. Not that that's completely unworkable, but it would be very tactically limiting, especially since ships would quickly learn that coming up directly behind a fleeing starship is basically suicidal. Next Generation photon torpedoes had the ability to use the matter and antimatter in their warheads to extend their warp speed range, at the cost of reducing their yield in proportion to the amount of matter/antimatter they used up for fuel. I don't recall that feature ever being mentioned in the original series, so presumably it was a later development. Also, dilithium always seemed to be a scarce strategic resource in the original series era, and the range-extended torpedoes had to have a small amount of dilithium to allow the modulated matter/antimatter reaction (rather than a simple explosion), so even if someone thought of it, it probably would have been considered a huge waste of dilithium to shoot it at people and blow it up.
As someone who grew up on Voyager and thus has a soft spot for it, damn you for your (definitely accurate) criticisms! We don't talk about the salamander episode!
It was TNG that established "Warp 10" as an unobtainable, hypothetical speed, not Voyager. It was mentioned in the show and is in the TNG writer's guide, along with the explanation why. They did this for good reason, to prevent the writers from using ever higher warp factors to make a scene more exciting, like TOS, TAS, the movies, etc would do. Voyager's writers(who were also TNG's writers) stuck to that.
Fantastic breakdown. Your analysis of the Orionian ship's engines was very astute (you read your tech manuals!). The way you talked about superluminal frames of reference was almost too simple, but just simple enough to get the point across: Well-appreciated. One point of contention; 'collapsing a ship's warp bubble' is not the effect or main purpose of scoring hits at warp; if a ship has enough reserve power it can maintain warp, however, if it must apply enough power to other systems to avoid critical damage it is forced to drop out of warp. It's not warp stability, but power system stability that is the issue. Torpedoes (photon, quantum, plasma) of high enough energy yield can destabilize a warp field such that the ship may drop out of warp by default to avoid going into an 'FTL tailspin' of sorts.
Ok with Tom Paris's "faster than light no left, no right" is actually a funny and old (by Star Trek standards) saying describing that if you do move faster than light due to the speeds you cannot see to the left and right of you meaning you lose your bearings. It's somewhat stupid with Star Trek's semi non relativistic warp drive but it's an accurate saying.
I believe there was a huge pot hole in the sick day medical technology. In the 23rd century Dr. McCoy should have been able to easily heal Captain Kirk's stab wound. It's amazing that the general audience at the time never picked up on that discrepancy. You can credit the writing. The episode was filled with raw emotion. The writers needed a sense of urgency for the plot to move forward. When raw emotions are in play it's very difficult for people to think critically. Actually I'm sure many people who first watched the episode way back in the 1960's probably noticed what I did now but we didn't have RUclips back then.
2K Thumbs Up + Mine! 👍 You're welcome! Thanks for the fun and informative, digital video recording! 🎬✌️🖖🙏🤠🤓😎 Notes: I haven't played those games since my college years, so I haven't thought about stuff like this since. I just enjoy what I'm watching as best I can, despite any quibbles, since I don't have anyone to talk to them about any more. 🖖
On the Orion ship; I like the TOS Remastered design's weird ring-and-spinning-engine look, especially as a homage to the "spinning light" effect from the original VFX of the episode, but I like yours too. Neat how it sort of incorporates that big engine ring into a more "common" starship design mentality. Think I prefer the TOS-R version for the sheer uniqueness of it, but still, kudos.
Huh, for some reason I had it in my head that in that Voyager episode mentioned in this video they said that warp 10 could not be exceeded rather than could not be attained. Makes me want to rewatch it. In the movie Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home they managed time travel by slingshotting around the sun to reach warp 10.
Really like your take on the Orion ship! In the original episode, I remember they only showed the front view on a spinning ring around an orb -- this is awesome as the idea of a TOS-era Orion scout/destroyer. I really wish they showed more warp combat in Trek, because it's so much more compelling to me than the big DS9 fleet battles. Those seemed like such a regression in terms of tactics and tech, but I get the TV reason for why. Would be really curious to see your take on The Ultimate Computer combat scenes (I forget now if those were warp or impulse, but they had some of the best maneuvering in TOS).
So basically Pimp My Suicide Ride😎. Yes this was a great episode and the animation and ship models are as usual TOP NOTCH. Also like your explanation of Why the E couldn't hit a ship moving at higher warp. I think that they could have laid a minefield (modified PTs?) and simply waiting for the Orion Suicide ship to charge into it as I doubt it had much maneuverability. I would love to see more Orion Syndicate ships as they really don't get much love in canon.
Awesome visuals as always, although sometimes I‘m confused by the sudden complete stops of motion like at 02:03, which makes it seem like the actual screen froze or something during the „time freeze shots“. Maybe a sort of panning back and forth or blinking could serve to fill those gaps, when nothing is moving. Or maybe it’s just the contrast to the otherwise phenomenal panning shots, that makes it seem frozen, but I still enjoyed it.
I understand. What's happening here is limitations of render time. Most frames you see take about 25 seconds for my computer and 3d software to render at the current level of resolution, which is still only 1280 by 720. And with thousands of frames to render, a video like this has over 20 hours of render time behind it - and should I spot a mistake - well you get the idea. Until I get better hardware I am always learning tricks such as loops and such to keep from freeze framing so much. You prompt me to research how I can speed this up. But thats why it is that way...
@@resurrectedstarships a lot of channels seem to do extremely slow zoom-in or zoom-out to make a static image appear less static. Maybe you could do just on your freeze frames without even having to render any more 3D footage.
I love this! Keep this coming for ToS and ToS movies! It's absolutely amazing! Maybe you could do some FASA module combat? That'd be amazing! Great work!
My personal theory on the warp scale is that in TOS era, they hadn't plumbed the depths of subspace and they measured speeds on an exponential scale, more by real space speed than by actual warp geometry. With the Transwarp project in Wrath of Khan, they had built an engine which finally reached the last layer, and found that there were no more layers. The technology was incorporated into later warp drives, and by TNG era, all ships were using transwarp technology (though they continued calling it simply warp drive) and so they switched to a logarithmic scale that more accurately represents the subspace geometry they were traveling through. Each transwarp factor resides within a specific layer of subspace, which also explains the weird speed limit episode. Warp 10 represents the bottom of the subspace continuum, which is like the center of a black hole, it can never be reached. Ships fighting at warp simply have to be within the same layer of subspace, and then they are able to physically interact with each other, according to the physical laws of subspace. There are also secondary and tertiary subspace domains, which we occasionally see in TNG, which are branches off of the linear subspace layer tree which can be reached in a warp direction orthogonal to the primary warp field. Transwarp conduits might also use these secondary domains to bypass normal subspace layers entirely, tunneling directly from one to another through a secondary medium.
@ Resurected Starships: This is Fantastic Thank you man good job This is the FASA explanation of warp combat. the concept of matching warp speeds to fire is great as warp works on the concept that the ship isn’t actually moving through space space is moving and so is not subject to the the Physics we know . now at least it’s finally out there. you and I both know warp combat is a real in universe canon thing!
In Starfleet Battles a tactical game based on the TOS Orion ships are able to double their warp output while taking continuous damage to the engines while doing so. It allows for great leaps of speed and lots of shield reinforcement but not forever as your engines will eventually be destroyed maintaining this. Battles are fought at warp speed of course.
Combat was at warp speeds in many of the ToS episodes with starship combat. In fact, the episode Elaan of Troyius they make a point of how helpless a ship that can't go to warp is against even a small ship that can go to warp.
Great job with the entire presentation. The only thing I might debate is your theory that ships must match warp speeds as they fire phasers at one another. I believe that phasers, being directed energy weapons, can have their energy projected at warp speeds. Just as subspace radio and active sensor beams are a form of projected energy that travels many times faster than a starship is capable of, phasers beams can be accelerated to high warp speeds greater than that of the firing or target ships. So the Orion ship could maintain warp 10 as it fires on the Enterprise and Enterprise could fire back even though it is moving much slower. The challenge is not the phaser beam it’s self catching a faster ship, but the targeting. It the Orion is moving at warp 10, and Enterprise is moving at warp 6, then the Orion is going almost 5 times faster than Enterprise. It’s easier for the faster ship to hit the slower ship in a strafing run. Imagine a fast moving airplane strafing a car speeding down a road. To the pilot, the car isn’t changing position as quickly as the plane is to the driver of the car.
I remember reading that the Photon torprdos needed the ship to be at warp for the topedos to catch the ship. If both vessels were at impulse then forget about it your toast if your on reciving end of the torpedo.
Regarding warp combat: It is established that within a warp bubble, ‘normal’ spacetime exists, so combat can take place at warp within the same bubble (see USS Prometheus shooting up the USS Honshu). The question is whether a ship can shoot from one warp bubble at another. The short hand answer is no, because whatever travelling at warp velocities would be super luminal in normal space time between the bubbles. However, if the projectile (or particles) can in some way have its own “warp tunnel” from one warp bubble to another, then it would be the same as if the 2 ships are in the same bubble. Torpedoes can do this via the onboard warp field sustainer. Particle weapons like phasers might either spontaneously “steal” a part of the ships’s warp field or perhaps the warp field is adjusted for the formation of a tunnel.
I wish we'd seen this Enterprise as the redesign in Star Trek Discovery and Strange New Worlds. This Enterprise is amazing and it looks modern while still being the same as the original. It is beautiful, and it is perfect. TOS Enterprise is the only ship that looks perfect and beautiful from every angle.
Really cool analysis of a classic episode and starship battle. 👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎 I lile your interpretation of the spinning ball of light that was the original TOS special effect. Different from the Remastered vessel. Both are cool. 😃😃😃😃😎😎😎😎 I would like to see you do a video on the two FASA Orion designs, the Wanderer and Lighting Blockade Runners. 😃😃😃😃
It is well established across multiple episodes that warp 7 is the max speed for the Enterprise, & that even that speed can't be maintained for long. However, as is usual in Star Trek this was made exception in ONE episode entitled "The Enterprise Incident" where after stealing & installing a Romulan cloak, Kirk orders Warp 9. This is the only time outside Alien intervention that the Enterprise goes faster than warp 7.
My Star Trek books are my best investment. They gave me hours of enjoyment -- and there is still so much to learn about the vast universe they created. Also great is Star Wars Art by Ralph Mcquarrie. The older paintings in that book are the best. These are my other favorite books, all available on Amazon: - Dinosaur Art by Steve White - Beyond the Horizon by John Harris - Great Fighter Jets of the Galaxy 1 by Tim Gibson
One of the official old TNG tech manuals discuss the warp difference between eras. There is the episode where Enterprise gets up to something like warp 14, though at high risk of ship destruction and due to some alien influence. I am trying to remember episode.
I think the episode is That Which Survives. Losira sabotages the Enterprise engines on their way back to the Kalandan planetoid in an attempt to make it explode. The other episodes I can think with extremely high warp factors are The Changeling, By Any Other Name, and Is There In Truth No Beauty, so it may be one of those instead.
In my head canon about no left or right movement at warp is that the change in warp scale meant narrowing in warp fields that although gives them extra speed means they cant move with destabilising it.
I am all for the Warp Scale changing between the team of the Original Series and Next Generation. All because ships were going faster and Warp Cores were more efficient than in the past. The speeds these ships were going were insane. To top it off. Much like in Star Trek III, the USS Excelsior was supposedly fitted with a new Warp Core all to achieve what was dubbed as "Transwarp". Going to speeds of Warp 14.1. This was using the Warp Scale of the Original Series. And as much as thr "Great Experiment" was a failure, due to sabotage (If I recall right). The experiment still yielded results and the new Warp Core design was used across the fleet. On top of a whole scale change within the Federation. That changed how the calculations of Warp Travel was measured. All because that Experiment did not really touch the barrier of Transwarp Technology. It was just further pushing the barrier of Warp Travel and the fact the numbers were getting stupid high. I mean it may sound cool to yell, "WARP FACTOR 69!" But really you could just be traveling at Warp Factor...or let us say, 8, in the new Scale. Big numbers sound cool but impractical and unnecessary at times. Even though if I recall. Q straight up kicked the Enterprise-D across the galaxy as the ship was going...I believe it was Warp Factor 20 or something. To which the Enterprise came into contact with the Borg. Then, the Enterprise tried to outrun the Borg Cube but the cube was so much faster and could maintain a high speed so much longer than the Enterprise could maintain. Of course, in the end. Picard admits to Q that Q was right and bets the Godlike Being to get them away from the Borg. Though only delaying the inevitable fact that the Federation will have to face them later. Now I am just pulling out examples out of my butt here. I could be wrong and some quick Google Series to get some Alpha Canon context right. But overall not totally right. Plus this is my Fan Theory and something I personally justify with myself to help cope with the plot holes that crop up in each series of Star Trek. Even how much people make fun of Voyager and its many issues with "Canon". I overall did like that series and really have accepted a lot of that's series' canon as being apart of the Universe. And yes includes that very episode of Tom Paris turning into some creature and ending up dragging Captain Janeway through and two ending up having babies...damn man. Tom had some game. Really do not deny it lol. No, matter how much a lot of people really want to not remember lol.
Combat at warp makes perfect sense to me, it's just something that is more difficult to visualise on our TV screens
All I know is that at Warp, the window of contact where the weapons can hit the target must be very small. Hence you can get hit, wait a minute for the ship to turn around, get hit again. It's a great way to have conversations a plan your next move during battle. Unlike battles that occur at sublight.8
Didn’t they show warp combat in Star Trek into darkness
@@711desmond Yes but they also declared that that wasn't something which should have been possible. I attribute that to the Kelvin timeline using a different type of warp tech
@@MatthewCaunsfield It still amazes me how Hollywood can give us shit we don’t want over and over and over in lieu of just giving us what we want.... regular, good-ole fashioned Star Trek in the prime universe sans any of the added garbage.
You nailed it!
The attacking Orion ship was a special variant, and I suspect the people responsible for designing its drive were on board in order to babysit the system. That would mean that they died when the ship was destroyed, and so we never see further versions of this ship in the canon.
A similar situation would occur years later in "Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country". The Klingons would field a warship capable of firing weapons while being cloaked, but we never see this variant again. I suspect that, for security reasons, the scientists and engineers who devised this capability were on Chang's ship, and were therefore killed when the ship was destroyed.
And yes, I am considering the possibility that copies of the development files remained behind on the Orion and Klingon homeworlds. But we can then debate (and I would welcome discussion) how paranoid and distrustful the Orions and the Klingons were.
I would also add, bad at paperwork.
I got a prisoner intake form that's just a splatter of blood and what looks like gagh smeared on it like a finger painting by a toddler, that says "p'tahk". Instead of filing it in my inbox, it was shoved in the mouth of said prisoner's disembodied head, before being thrown through my office window. It's the third time this week.
@@jtjames79 Klingon bureaucracy is the envy of the Galaxy.
The part worth really questioning here, is who ordered this "enterprise killer" to be built?
The orian syndicate is definitely a power in the quadrant, but a minor one, and they tend to avoid commiting acts of war against the quadrant's super powers like the UFP and Klingon Empire. So there is an unknown third party involved.
With Undiscovered Country, we have all the answers by the end, but in Journey to Babel, we hardly know any more than we started with at the end.
@@Mephilis78 Would it be possible that the syndicate had this vessel in reserve in the event that an opportunity for a major beneficial strike occurred, and the Babel conference regarding the Coridan system was such an opportunity? Especially with so many delegates in one place?
I'm also willing to bet that the syndicate had a spy in more than one delegation, delivering lucrative information back to the syndicate.
this episode is the justification for Orion engine doubling in the starfleet Battles board game.
That Orion ship design is absolutely gorgeous
From watching the episode, it's clear there was no issue with phasers needing to breach warp bubbles or any such technobabble. Rather, the Orion ship is explicitly stated to be moving _too fast_ for Enterprise to hit. Going with Occam's Razor, the Enterprise can hit objects at warp, but not targets moving as fast as Warp 10.
Yeah as in TMP Kirk's first thought of debris clearing in the "wormhole" was phasers.
@@barrybend7189
Exactly.
My initial thought was, "Of course you can't fire phasers at warp. That's what torpedoes are for!" But the concept of matching warp factor really does make the idea work. If we treat it as each warp factor is a "layer" of subspace further down than the previous, then you would need to be in the same x.0-x.9 range, and probably would need to be within a certain distance so the phaser doesn't "dissipate" after leaving your warp field and before reaching the opponent's warp field. This also allows you to overtake a ship you're charging from behind and start speeding up afterward.
Doing maneuvers at warp though, that's a trickier bit to accept given post-TOS works. It could be adjusting the output of a warp grille by sections so the field acts a bit like a rudder or elevator at warp speeds, while maneuvering thrusters might not be powerful enough alone at warp speeds? And it's possible that warp maneuvers was a thing pioneered during the cold war with the Klingons that doesn't work above certain speeds, and ended up largely forgotten in the Lost Era/TNG as speeds rose ever higher and peace was more commonplace. You could call it warp compressibility, much like the high-speed compressibility issues planes can have. You know, basically once you go fast enough, the air flow compresses so much that the flight controls lock up. Could be a similar issue with high warp speeds.
Of course, the idea of warp speed representing subspace layers could get confusing given the warp scale restructuring between TOS and TNG.
Overall, really nice work and quite thought provoking from a lore perspective.
This content is so good.
The only thing keeping me interested in Star Trek is the community.
I hear ya.
its all thats left. star fleet battles is based on TOS so they are a good bunch to be around.
@@ashlevrier So is the real time computer game version, Star Fleet Command, of which the Windows 10 compatible version can be found on GOG.
@@CZ350tuner i have that game too.
@@ashlevrier Played SFB when I was in the Navy, where I devised a way to greatly streamline game play. The ship charts were divided into six sections, each one representing the structures and systems that faced each side of that ship's game board hex. Rather than rolling for hits, the damage dealt would be chosen by the receiving party, but confined to the zone facing the incoming fire (unless all boxes in that zone were blacked, then you would proceed to the opposite side.) It was great for visualizing such scenes as the dis-masting of Reliant by Enterprise, which was the hottest thing in theaters stateside. Of course when we got back to dry land we forgot about the game, and discovered booze and girls, but those were some times.
Good God, I'm old.
Journey to Babel is one of my favorite episodes, I've been watching since I was in grade 7, today if I have time, I'll watch it. thanks for sharing
In the James Blish books Kirk makes the point in his back and forth with the Orion assassin that no captain with all of the VIP's on board would leave himself defenseless. And he has a point I think. After all he had a lot of high level federation delegates on board. Also I think this is one of those times when Kirk had the ability on an instinctive level to get a feel for the character of his opponent and act based on that. He had no idea the the ship attacking him was only meant for one mission, but he guessed they'd want to savor the kill. He gambled on their enjoyment of the death of the Enterprise and want to enjoy that.
One thing I would have liked to see in this episode was Kirk and Sarek going head to head in a game of chess.
I like your reasoning. With the Orion spy on the bridge, Kirk had the "face" and mindset of his opponent. An advantage the commander of the Orion vessel didn't possess.
Fun fact: The Enterprise herself actually reached Warp 10+ at least twice. Once during the episode with Nomad and once during “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.” However, this is dangerous as the ship isn’t built to handle that kind of speed. Anyway, great vid!
Journey to babel , just more then just a label , call red alert and show them I'm able .
so from my understanding warp 10 on the TOS scale is 1000 x lightspeed which is approximately warp 7.95 on the TNG scale
That doesn't fit with TNG 'canon' does it?
In TNG/Voyager, Warp 9.9 is approx 1000 x lightspeed IIRC, so same as TOS. Also, Voyager was said to be thrown 70,000 light years across the galaxy. It was also said to be 70 years from home. So again, at Voyager's fast cruise of about Warp 9.9, that's about 70,000 light years in 70 years. Finally, Janeway describes 'Kirk's ship' as being "half as fast" as her own. This also suggests the same 'Warp Scale' because:
Warp 8 = 8 cubed = 512 x lightspeed.
Warp 9.9 = 9.9 cubed = 970 x lightspeed (almost twice as fast).
It all fits, doesn' it?
@@eventcone my numbers come from the official technical manual that was released during voyager's run
@@moorhen6156 But (bear with me here) can you square this 'technical manual' with Janeway's statement (ships half as fast) and the idea of being 70,000 light years thus 70 years from home?
@@eventcone but based on, on screen dialog voyager can also travel 5.2 light years at warp 2 inside one day (s3e26) which isn't possible
@@moorhen6156 So - how long should it have taken to reach Federation Space at warp 9.9? What is the formula for Velocity as a function of Warp Factor in TNG cannon?
I love this analysis. For me, the original series and SFB are the most accurate Star Treks. Give me D7s that fire disruptors and Orions with custom built ships!
Regarding the whole "not able to fight during warp" in another episode of TOS it is even established that the standart combat speed is warp 2
Probably the optimum turn rate speed for a Connie, one that combines the smallest circle with the highest speed, to turn inside, and get around behind your foe.
@@FusionAero Yeah. Though, in another episode it was even established that the Enterprise uses the warpdrive to turn on place which I liked and makes sense. It uses the warp effect to not just move forward, but in general. In said episode, they were a sitting duck and only had navigational thrusters, which were much slower without an active warp field^^
@@Gosti85 Available speed range is another thing that makes a certain speed "optimum". From Warp 2 you can either quickly accelerate out of weapons range, or suddenly decelerate into a spinning bootleg turn, and bring your forward torpedo tubes unexpectedly to bear, having just dodged an inbound disruptor volley with an equally unexpected burn-out. It's called the Kirk Manever, and it may well be the reason the the Crown Prince of Troyyus has absolutely no blue in his complexion. (Loved that episode)
7:55 - I suppose they could if, IF, like the theory of the Plasma Torpedo traveling at Warp being caught in the warp bubble.
With that in mind, since Photon Torpedoes only have warp stabilizers, they'd end up getting caught in the warp bubble, then sure they could buuut... Not too likely I guess.
In a way, that happens a lot in STO when enemies decide to warp out of TFO's because of a timer ran out and the Photon Torpedo initially tries to follow them.
This was amazingly animated. You've gotten really good at 3D Modelling and animated.
Wish I had that determination but I keep getting sidelined by 3000 "musts" and stuff in the way.
Great video!
STO also revisited the events of Journey to Babel. The reason the ship exploded after just one hit was due to the Na'kuhl bomb that they had tried to plant on the Enterprise and was instead beamed aboard the Orion vessel, which also prevented any further contamination of the timeline (though Scotty did end up picking up Chekov's temporal transponder).
Starfleet Battles, originally a tabletop game, defined all this forty years ago.
I still have my original copy. Never played it.
I’m not sure about the spikey “teeth” from the ring to the hull, but your design is still 1,000% better than the SFB design of Orion ships.
Everytime I watch one of your videos with the Enterprise I desperately want to get a TOS version kit. But I’d then be adding it to a rather embarrassingly large pile of models I’ve already got. 🤷♂️
Ah you to have a pile of ship kits to build, lol.
Dude. Having a large stock of unbuilt models is called a research library.
I see your plastic and raise you.... more plastic!
Let's goooo! Been wait for this vid for a while! :D
First! Love the animation, what do you use?
I am using mostly Blender3d - its great and free!
@@resurrectedstarships Amazing that you can make such detailed and beautiful things using free software, keep up the great work!
Yo! The ships look really cool. I wonder of you could do a small fan film with the ships fighting ( enterprise, and maybe a romulan or Gorn ship) some audio conversations for good measure😄
Oh I could but I am not allowed to monetize star trek fan films ;) Ever since the Axanar fan-film debacle!
@@resurrectedstarships CBS not inviting Axanar and others in the fan community to participate as part of the Web/Online experience was idiotic and lost the company a lot of good will, not to mention free publicity.
Sigh.
@@resurrectedstarships Rats! But, thanks for getting back to me, that was cool. Do enjoy it vids man and I'm telling people about it.
@@pauld6967 right on Paul. 80% of the vids by fans are better than the drool star trek has become. I just know this guy here and a few others would do an awesome job making something. One they know trek and how it should be and they have the passion to make it right!
Oh well, take care bro
@@jimkluska253 You too. Have a good rest of the week.
Review Star Fleet Battles. It used the episode "Balance of Terror" for the foundation of its rules.
This channel is criminally underrated
I haven't seen this episode or the conclusion of this video before realizing that dropping out of warp would've been the best decision to avoid destruction. As you pointed out, the Orion ship made a mistake engaging outside of warp. If both ships fought optimally, they would've been at a standstill.
The Federation ship would've dropped out of warp to recharge shields & damage control. The Orion ship would've waited for the Federation ship to re-enter warp, and cool warp coils before starting harassing the Federation ship once again. Ultimately, I believe the Orion ship would've won. A single direct hit at a critical system/life support/food supply would've been the deciding factor after doing that dance a few times.
We know from _Elann of Troyus_ that ships at warp can attack ships that are at sublight.
I’ve actually saved this video. The ST Vs SW debate is officially Over! with ST FTL maneuvering and combat finally being recognized! Thank You @Resurected Starships! I knew you could do it!
Man, where’s this channel been all my life! It’s so refreshing to see fan content nowadays - subbed! 🙌
if you match the speed, there's a chance you can make the warp bubbles combine, thus giving you a clear shot, though it probably would take more than a second or two for stabilization (at point blank range no less) or they both get punched out of warp at the best of outcomes... Subatomic goo being one of the worse. Ships extending their warp bubble to disabled vessels is well documented in beta canon, tos, and current tech exposes, weaponizing such a trick wouldn't be much of a stretch. Good visual on it though.
Star Fleet Battles? Tabletop star trek combat at FTL speeds with lots and lots of rules.
That nacelle careening away from the explosion was a neat touch.
7:36 wait why would anyone think Photon torpedos don't work at warp? One example of them being used in warp is the Encounter with the J25 borg cube. I know it's not a TOS example but still...
well they have to be fired when your at warp for it to go warp speeds but the thing is they can stay at those speeds but that can't speed up or slow down and a weapons bridge tectal officer would have to calculate where and when to fire the torpedo at the target to directly hit or indirectly hit via a timed delay photon torpedo detonation area of effect when it near the target by the time its close enough!
@@ashtiboy I know, but my point is that in every series up to enterprise have battle scenes with photon torpedoes being used in Warp speeds. Why would anyone doubt that?
Interesting to see the old 'rocket' nacelles on the Enterprise here. They were later changed when the entire idea of what 'warp' did was better codified, although in-universe the explanation was to allow greater room for warp coils inside.
Oooh I like this render of the enterprise!
Great analysis and great graphics. Thanks for taking the time to produce both.
Love this episode and love your Enterprise.
SFB explained this away by establishing that the Orions can temporarily double the output of their warp reactors at the expense of damaging the reactor.
SFB is 100x better than anything paramount is currently doing. I loved their logic and universe
@@BoydofZINJ I never even saw any Trek (besides TAS when I was little) before I played SFB. The SFU is the Star Trek I grew up on. Everything else is alternate universes
I remember reading in a few of the novels that for warp combat to happen, the ships need to close and "synchronize warp fields" or something like that. Which seems to me like the warp bubbles around each ship are merged in order to fire.
I like that classic Trek writers understood the real story behind the Tower of Babel. That it wasn’t about reaching the heavens that disturbed god, it’s was humans working together and doing great things. That’s why god fractured human languages, to prevent humans from working together and making such great things ever again. That sentiment was the heart of this episode, of outside forces sowing confusion among various cultures because they are afraid of what could be done if those cultures cooperated together.
There's a lot of Biblical references in TOS that are right on the money.
Except that it is nearly a direct copy of an episode from the 50s kids space show, "Rocky Jones Space Ranger".
It is possible that the writers imagined some Sumerian analogy, but is is much more likely this is just the same play, slightly matured, with more of the corn removed. Elan of Troyus (forgive the spelling guess) was also borrowed from Rocky Jones, which was borrowed from The Taming of the Shrew....later Atomic Shakespeare in 1986. The title however is the exact opposite of the Helen of Troy motifs as her marriage would stop war, not cause it.
If I would hazard a guess, you may be applying a motive to the writers that is not established, though a very Gilgamesh poetic one, as various reasons can employ the name Babel for multilingual things.
Babel Fish
Babel websites
Babel training disks
@@STho205 I take it you never saw the Rocky Jones Space Ranger episode “silver needle in the sky” aka “the duel”? Journey to Babel is inspired by this episode sure, but in no way was it a direct copy.
The main plot of The Duel was about Cleolata taking some ambassadors hostage in an attempted prisoner exchange. She has two captured agents that she wants back, so she abducts the ambassadors on a space station while Rocky is away on another planet. There is also a sub plot about some of Cleolata’s agents looking for a promotion. So one of them traps everyone on the space station and cuts off the oxygen to kill them all after the prisoner exchange.
The plots of the two episodes are not the same. Only the most basic premise of “an intercultural peace conference is attacked by an outside force for the benefit of those opposed to those at the conference” is applicable. Which is a story as old as time really. Nothing new.
The main plot of Journey to Babel is about a false flag operation in order to derail the conference. Not a prisoner exchange like in The Duel.
Journey to Babel is definitely inspired by The Duel but they are not the same on most levels, plot, characters, motives and events are all very different. Having seen both I can see what was used to inspire a different story in Trek, but don’t be mistaken, they are very different stories.
The plot line of Cleolata’s subordinates fighting each other for greater prestige upon return was turned into a double agent plot with the fake Andorian in Journey to Babel(JtB). The plot line to sabotage Rocky’s ship before take off was changed to an assassination implicating Sarek. The dialogue line about Cleolata’s agent’s ship keeping on the edge of sensor range until Rocky left was used as a main tactic by the Orion ship in JtB. The plot line of Dr.Titan using a suspended animation capsule on himself was changed to be the double agent taking a slow release poison to kill himself in JtB. Even the names “Silver Needle in the Sky” and “The Duel” were used to inspire the interaction with the unknown enemy ship in JtB. The titles were used to inspire so well that JtB has more plot elements justifying those two names than the Rocky Jones Space Ranger episode does. Bobby definitely inspired Wesley Crusher, I mean the leave it to beaver Boy Scout attitude and… the hair.
The plot about a Max/Min’ed space ship confusing the sensors and being unable to hit wasn’t in The Duel. The plot about a main character’s medical emergency needing surgery, substantial blood transfusion and how that effects who is in command of the ship after captain is still recovering from a stab wound is entirely new to JtB. The need for the conference being, the procuring of a strategic resource(dilithum)so an enemy power doesn’t get it is entirely new. Kirk’s lame duck maneuver to win final the duel wasn’t in The Duel. The plot line about an estranged child reuniting with his family was entirely new.
In almost every way JtB was better written and more complex than The Duel. Literally nothing was directly copied.
As for the Tower of Babel story, have you not read the bible? It’s a bible story. Sure, Nimrod from the bible is seen as Gilgamesh by some but it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison. My main point was that the Tower of Babel story in modern times is mistakenly described as “angering god because humans were trying to get to heaven” when that wasn’t the biblical reason for god confusing human languages. Nimrod built the Tower to escape a second global flood, not to reach heaven. God saw an attempt to escape punishment as disturbing so he confounded human speech so humans could never try such hubris of escaping punishment ever again.
The plot point of “causing confusion and distrust in a group that you don’t want working together” was the reason the episode is named “Journey to Babel”. As the usage of “Babel” is about different cultures being able to understand each other and work together, not simply being multilingual. Babel is associated with translation or learning a new language. It’s not a synonym for multilingual.
To paraphrase your quote “If I were to hazard a guess, you may be applying a motive to me that is not established.” The biblical history and meaning of the Tower of Babel is well established. The usage of “Babel” in JtB is well placed in regards to the plot. That was my point. You on the other hand have not shown your work, you just vaguely disagreed instead. So, have you ever even watched an episode of Rocky Jones Space Ranger?
@@ManicPandaz I did see it. Did you bother typing all that or did you paste it from a plot summary. The Orville also borrowed elements from it, and borrows several elements from the series for the setup of their show, just as Roddenberry did for his. Star Trek's first set director was the set director on Rocky Jones. He had a girlfriend named Vina in a skimpy dress and the helmsman and navigator sat behind an astrogator console looking at a video screen with series blinking lights below it. Nearly a dead ringer for the two pilots.
Oh there was an elevator with shhhishing double doors right behind the captain.
A lot of ST writers were scientologists, inspired by Scientology and long dismissed heretical Gnostic, Arian, Maricon ideas, ....or hung out with Hubbard as Roddenberry did. He was quite popular in the 60s. This applies to Ellison, Dorothy Fontana and several other repeat scripters.
Scientology is spread all through ST (later ones too) and many SF works of the era. Engrams, Thetans, Aeons, Archons, Daemons, the ships...
The IDIC is an existing Dianetics Scientology broach Roddenberry borrowed, pinned on Nimoy without warning, wrote in some lines day of shooting and had mass produced for his fan collectibles catalog he was creating in 68 for the upcoming afternoon syndication.
He knew the show would run at least three years in early 1967 when Desilu sold under a contention that at least 75 episodes would would be sold into syndication by 1970 and Roddenberry was on the deal. Kept it a secret too to keep salaries in check, and kept "fighting cancelation"...he knew would not happen. Solow revealed that tidbit in the early 90s.
So take care with "revealed truth" as most of it...if it appears classic... is steeped in Hollywood Fads.
Excellent analysis.
This kind of thinking is what made classic trek great.
Yes, Babel is one of the top Trek episodes of all time, woth so many firsts and trek lore creation.
Demonstrates all the Best of trek, and how to do a top notch trek episode.
Also noteworthy for Shatner doing his own stunts with the Andorian fight.
Drop kick off the wall for the win?
Reasonably argued, excellent animation!
Definitely enjoying that ship design you made.
I also agree with what you said about the Constitution class being very tough to be during the TOS era. Each era of Starfleet is defined by what I call their "Big Bruiser": the class of ship that can take a hit, smile, then punch you right back harder. The Constitution, Excelsior, Galaxy, and Sovereign all fit this description. Each one had the oomph of their respective eras, but when more advanced ships became available, here comes a new Big Bruiser from Starfleet. It's also worth noting that, at least from my observation, the Big Bruiser also obtains an Enterprise. By that logic, I guess the Ambassador class would've been its era's Big Bruiser? *shrugs*
Speculations aside, love the these videos. Always interesting to see a breakdown of some of the more famous fights from the TOS Era.
Brilliant episode
You should definitely do more of these battle break downs. You seem to understand the tactics involved in combat in trek.
The Orion ship might have been desperate for the opportunity to drop out of warp, too. The thing was probably running within a hair's breadth of overheating, frying components, or just plain blowing itself up at any given moment. It was souped up to the maximum of what was possible to achieve for a ship that size at that point in the tech of most of the Federation-adjacent (or Federation) societies. If they believed they had disabled the Enterprise, they might have been thinking "Hey, we can let the coils have a break, pound this un-shielded hunk of metal to slag, and slow-roll on home. We might actually live through this!"
Finally ! bring a FASA fan i’m happy you finally acknowledged warp speed maneuvering at FTL
The warp sustaining coils in a photon (or quantum) torpedo allow it to essentially snag a little sub-pocket of the warp bubble the ship is generating and keep it stable for a short time. They can't create on themselves, nor enhance the existing one they pick up. If they couldn't, they'd drop out of warp as soon as they got clear of the ship's warp bubble and the ship, if it had fired them forward, would basically immediately run into its own torpedoes. They'd have to be rear-firing only, like dropping depth charges. Not that that's completely unworkable, but it would be very tactically limiting, especially since ships would quickly learn that coming up directly behind a fleeing starship is basically suicidal.
Next Generation photon torpedoes had the ability to use the matter and antimatter in their warheads to extend their warp speed range, at the cost of reducing their yield in proportion to the amount of matter/antimatter they used up for fuel. I don't recall that feature ever being mentioned in the original series, so presumably it was a later development. Also, dilithium always seemed to be a scarce strategic resource in the original series era, and the range-extended torpedoes had to have a small amount of dilithium to allow the modulated matter/antimatter reaction (rather than a simple explosion), so even if someone thought of it, it probably would have been considered a huge waste of dilithium to shoot it at people and blow it up.
The TOS Enterprise looks so great in your videos.
Utterly loved the comment on the techno sin committed by Voyager lol.
Also.... You gave the Bebop warp Nacelles. Kudos.
Excellent video and the Orion ship was very interesting! Nice job all around!
Very good presentation and interpretation of the encounter!
As someone who grew up on Voyager and thus has a soft spot for it, damn you for your (definitely accurate) criticisms! We don't talk about the salamander episode!
Don't worry, I am still a fan of Voyager - it's still mostly within my head canon.
It was TNG that established "Warp 10" as an unobtainable, hypothetical speed, not Voyager. It was mentioned in the show and is in the TNG writer's guide, along with the explanation why. They did this for good reason, to prevent the writers from using ever higher warp factors to make a scene more exciting, like TOS, TAS, the movies, etc would do. Voyager's writers(who were also TNG's writers) stuck to that.
Fantastic breakdown. Your analysis of the Orionian ship's engines was very astute (you read your tech manuals!). The way you talked about superluminal frames of reference was almost too simple, but just simple enough to get the point across: Well-appreciated.
One point of contention; 'collapsing a ship's warp bubble' is not the effect or main purpose of scoring hits at warp; if a ship has enough reserve power it can maintain warp, however, if it must apply enough power to other systems to avoid critical damage it is forced to drop out of warp. It's not warp stability, but power system stability that is the issue. Torpedoes (photon, quantum, plasma) of high enough energy yield can destabilize a warp field such that the ship may drop out of warp by default to avoid going into an 'FTL tailspin' of sorts.
Neat Orion custom class Ship Design and interesting analyses! 👍
loved every second of this
Sounds like some Start Fleet Battles physics there! I loved that game
Ok with Tom Paris's "faster than light no left, no right" is actually a funny and old (by Star Trek standards) saying describing that if you do move faster than light due to the speeds you cannot see to the left and right of you meaning you lose your bearings. It's somewhat stupid with Star Trek's semi non relativistic warp drive but it's an accurate saying.
I love these break downs with your models, they're super cool and I hope there's more, even if it's FASA or Starfleet Battles material!
I love your work and the logic behind it.
Keep up the awesome work🖖🏼
I believe there was a huge pot hole in the sick day medical technology. In the 23rd century Dr. McCoy should have been able to easily heal Captain Kirk's stab wound. It's amazing that the general audience at the time never picked up on that discrepancy. You can credit the writing. The episode was filled with raw emotion. The writers needed a sense of urgency for the plot to move forward. When raw emotions are in play it's very difficult for people to think critically. Actually I'm sure many people who first watched the episode way back in the 1960's probably noticed what I did now but we didn't have RUclips back then.
Keep up making these episode action reports, they're awesome!
2K Thumbs Up + Mine! 👍 You're welcome! Thanks for the fun and informative, digital video recording! 🎬✌️🖖🙏🤠🤓😎
Notes: I haven't played those games since my college years, so I haven't thought about stuff like this since. I just enjoy what I'm watching as best I can, despite any quibbles, since I don't have anyone to talk to them about any more. 🖖
On the Orion ship; I like the TOS Remastered design's weird ring-and-spinning-engine look, especially as a homage to the "spinning light" effect from the original VFX of the episode, but I like yours too. Neat how it sort of incorporates that big engine ring into a more "common" starship design mentality. Think I prefer the TOS-R version for the sheer uniqueness of it, but still, kudos.
Huh, for some reason I had it in my head that in that Voyager episode mentioned in this video they said that warp 10 could not be exceeded rather than could not be attained. Makes me want to rewatch it.
In the movie Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home they managed time travel by slingshotting around the sun to reach warp 10.
The Star Trek Technical Manual (for TNG) states that warp 10 is infinite speed.
Really like your take on the Orion ship! In the original episode, I remember they only showed the front view on a spinning ring around an orb -- this is awesome as the idea of a TOS-era Orion scout/destroyer.
I really wish they showed more warp combat in Trek, because it's so much more compelling to me than the big DS9 fleet battles. Those seemed like such a regression in terms of tactics and tech, but I get the TV reason for why. Would be really curious to see your take on The Ultimate Computer combat scenes (I forget now if those were warp or impulse, but they had some of the best maneuvering in TOS).
Good story. Your video made sense . Great job.
So basically Pimp My Suicide Ride😎. Yes this was a great episode and the animation and ship models are as usual TOP NOTCH. Also like your explanation of Why the E couldn't hit a ship moving at higher warp. I think that they could have laid a minefield (modified PTs?) and simply waiting for the Orion Suicide ship to charge into it as I doubt it had much maneuverability. I would love to see more Orion Syndicate ships as they really don't get much love in canon.
Your Orion design is awesome!
Great video! Love the content Star Trek for life!
Really nice animation and work of this video
This vid was so good. I really liked the way you explain warp combat
It is one of the best episodes of the original.
Sareks sickness.
A enemy..
Seeing the original founders of the federation together
That's sweet! Killer video and ship man.
Awesome visuals as always, although sometimes I‘m confused by the sudden complete stops of motion like at 02:03, which makes it seem like the actual screen froze or something during the „time freeze shots“. Maybe a sort of panning back and forth or blinking could serve to fill those gaps, when nothing is moving. Or maybe it’s just the contrast to the otherwise phenomenal panning shots, that makes it seem frozen, but I still enjoyed it.
I understand. What's happening here is limitations of render time. Most frames you see take about 25 seconds for my computer and 3d software to render at the current level of resolution, which is still only 1280 by 720. And with thousands of frames to render, a video like this has over 20 hours of render time behind it - and should I spot a mistake - well you get the idea. Until I get better hardware I am always learning tricks such as loops and such to keep from freeze framing so much. You prompt me to research how I can speed this up. But thats why it is that way...
@@resurrectedstarships Makes sense, glad I could point something out. Keep it up:)
@@resurrectedstarships a lot of channels seem to do extremely slow zoom-in or zoom-out to make a static image appear less static. Maybe you could do just on your freeze frames without even having to render any more 3D footage.
Beautifully made, you clearly put a lot of effort into your videos
I love this! Keep this coming for ToS and ToS movies! It's absolutely amazing! Maybe you could do some FASA module combat? That'd be amazing! Great work!
I just now discovered you!! I love your stuff keep it up!! Live long and prosper
My personal theory on the warp scale is that in TOS era, they hadn't plumbed the depths of subspace and they measured speeds on an exponential scale, more by real space speed than by actual warp geometry. With the Transwarp project in Wrath of Khan, they had built an engine which finally reached the last layer, and found that there were no more layers. The technology was incorporated into later warp drives, and by TNG era, all ships were using transwarp technology (though they continued calling it simply warp drive) and so they switched to a logarithmic scale that more accurately represents the subspace geometry they were traveling through.
Each transwarp factor resides within a specific layer of subspace, which also explains the weird speed limit episode. Warp 10 represents the bottom of the subspace continuum, which is like the center of a black hole, it can never be reached. Ships fighting at warp simply have to be within the same layer of subspace, and then they are able to physically interact with each other, according to the physical laws of subspace.
There are also secondary and tertiary subspace domains, which we occasionally see in TNG, which are branches off of the linear subspace layer tree which can be reached in a warp direction orthogonal to the primary warp field. Transwarp conduits might also use these secondary domains to bypass normal subspace layers entirely, tunneling directly from one to another through a secondary medium.
this is the best vid so far not that the rest are any less than great i just love this one ☝️
Your visuals were terrific!
@ Resurected Starships: This is Fantastic Thank you man good job This is the FASA explanation of warp combat. the concept of matching warp speeds to fire is great as warp works on the concept that the ship isn’t actually moving through space space is moving and so is not subject to the the Physics we know . now at least it’s finally out there. you and I both know warp combat is a real in universe canon thing!
In Starfleet Battles a tactical game based on the TOS Orion ships are able to double their warp output while taking continuous damage to the engines while doing so. It allows for great leaps of speed and lots of shield reinforcement but not forever as your engines will eventually be destroyed maintaining this. Battles are fought at warp speed of course.
Combat was at warp speeds in many of the ToS episodes with starship combat. In fact, the episode Elaan of Troyius they make a point of how helpless a ship that can't go to warp is against even a small ship that can go to warp.
Beautiful work
I flippen love these videos
Great job with the entire presentation. The only thing I might debate is your theory that ships must match warp speeds as they fire phasers at one another. I believe that phasers, being directed energy weapons, can have their energy projected at warp speeds. Just as subspace radio and active sensor beams are a form of projected energy that travels many times faster than a starship is capable of, phasers beams can be accelerated to high warp speeds greater than that of the firing or target ships. So the Orion ship could maintain warp 10 as it fires on the Enterprise and Enterprise could fire back even though it is moving much slower. The challenge is not the phaser beam it’s self catching a faster ship, but the targeting. It the Orion is moving at warp 10, and Enterprise is moving at warp 6, then the Orion is going almost 5 times faster than Enterprise. It’s easier for the faster ship to hit the slower ship in a strafing run. Imagine a fast moving airplane strafing a car speeding down a road. To the pilot, the car isn’t changing position as quickly as the plane is to the driver of the car.
The really cool battle is the Dolman of Troyus Battle where kirks says! “Get me out of this solar system I need room to maneuver!”
I remember reading that the Photon torprdos needed the ship to be at warp for the topedos to catch the ship. If both vessels were at impulse then forget about it your toast if your on reciving end of the torpedo.
Great explanation, Thank you!!!
Regarding warp combat:
It is established that within a warp bubble, ‘normal’ spacetime exists, so combat can take place at warp within the same bubble (see USS Prometheus shooting up the USS Honshu).
The question is whether a ship can shoot from one warp bubble at another. The short hand answer is no, because whatever travelling at warp velocities would be super luminal in normal space time between the bubbles. However, if the projectile (or particles) can in some way have its own “warp tunnel” from one warp bubble to another, then it would be the same as if the 2 ships are in the same bubble. Torpedoes can do this via the onboard warp field sustainer. Particle weapons like phasers might either spontaneously “steal” a part of the ships’s warp field or perhaps the warp field is adjusted for the formation of a tunnel.
Great video. You won't see this kind of high quality on Picard or Discovery.
I wish we'd seen this Enterprise as the redesign in Star Trek Discovery and Strange New Worlds. This Enterprise is amazing and it looks modern while still being the same as the original. It is beautiful, and it is perfect. TOS Enterprise is the only ship that looks perfect and beautiful from every angle.
Really cool analysis of a classic episode and starship battle.
👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎
I lile your interpretation of the spinning ball of light that was the original TOS special effect. Different from the Remastered vessel. Both are cool.
😃😃😃😃😎😎😎😎
I would like to see you do a video on the two FASA Orion designs, the Wanderer and Lighting Blockade Runners.
😃😃😃😃
It is well established across multiple episodes that warp 7 is the max speed for the Enterprise, & that even that speed can't be maintained for long.
However, as is usual in Star Trek this was made exception in ONE episode entitled "The Enterprise Incident" where after stealing & installing a Romulan cloak, Kirk orders Warp 9.
This is the only time outside Alien intervention that the Enterprise goes faster than warp 7.
My Star Trek books are my best investment. They gave me hours of enjoyment -- and there is still so much to learn about the vast universe they created.
Also great is Star Wars Art by Ralph Mcquarrie. The older paintings in that book are the best.
These are my other favorite books, all available on Amazon:
- Dinosaur Art by Steve White
- Beyond the Horizon by John Harris
- Great Fighter Jets of the Galaxy 1 by Tim Gibson
This is GREAT! 11:36 minutes of Heaven in fantasy Space. The best way to get off this sinking planet for awhile. 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂
One of the official old TNG tech manuals discuss the warp difference between eras. There is the episode where Enterprise gets up to something like warp 14, though at high risk of ship destruction and due to some alien influence. I am trying to remember episode.
I think the episode is That Which Survives. Losira sabotages the Enterprise engines on their way back to the Kalandan planetoid in an attempt to make it explode. The other episodes I can think with extremely high warp factors are The Changeling, By Any Other Name, and Is There In Truth No Beauty, so it may be one of those instead.
"The ambassador IS my father"!
In my head canon about no left or right movement at warp is that the change in warp scale meant narrowing in warp fields that although gives them extra speed means they cant move with destabilising it.
Love it ‼️ Good stuff!
I am all for the Warp Scale changing between the team of the Original Series and Next Generation. All because ships were going faster and Warp Cores were more efficient than in the past. The speeds these ships were going were insane. To top it off. Much like in Star Trek III, the USS Excelsior was supposedly fitted with a new Warp Core all to achieve what was dubbed as "Transwarp". Going to speeds of Warp 14.1. This was using the Warp Scale of the Original Series. And as much as thr "Great Experiment" was a failure, due to sabotage (If I recall right). The experiment still yielded results and the new Warp Core design was used across the fleet. On top of a whole scale change within the Federation. That changed how the calculations of Warp Travel was measured.
All because that Experiment did not really touch the barrier of Transwarp Technology. It was just further pushing the barrier of Warp Travel and the fact the numbers were getting stupid high.
I mean it may sound cool to yell, "WARP FACTOR 69!" But really you could just be traveling at Warp Factor...or let us say, 8, in the new Scale. Big numbers sound cool but impractical and unnecessary at times.
Even though if I recall. Q straight up kicked the Enterprise-D across the galaxy as the ship was going...I believe it was Warp Factor 20 or something. To which the Enterprise came into contact with the Borg. Then, the Enterprise tried to outrun the Borg Cube but the cube was so much faster and could maintain a high speed so much longer than the Enterprise could maintain. Of course, in the end. Picard admits to Q that Q was right and bets the Godlike Being to get them away from the Borg. Though only delaying the inevitable fact that the Federation will have to face them later.
Now I am just pulling out examples out of my butt here. I could be wrong and some quick Google Series to get some Alpha Canon context right. But overall not totally right. Plus this is my Fan Theory and something I personally justify with myself to help cope with the plot holes that crop up in each series of Star Trek. Even how much people make fun of Voyager and its many issues with "Canon". I overall did like that series and really have accepted a lot of that's series' canon as being apart of the Universe. And yes includes that very episode of Tom Paris turning into some creature and ending up dragging Captain Janeway through and two ending up having babies...damn man. Tom had some game. Really do not deny it lol. No, matter how much a lot of people really want to not remember lol.
I have a vague memory of the FASA games mentioning that torpedos can be used at warp but phasers and disrupters are not.
The Orions are big time into their overclocking.