I like how this hints that at the height of the Klingon - Federation Cold War (Kirk''s Era, Pre-Praxis), the ship-building arms race between the 'Big 3' of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, is running into a metaphrocial brick wall or cliff edge due to the increasing usage of cutting edge and unstable technologies - Pipe Dreams even. Its a situation that feels really nice and snug with the situation of how/why the said 'Big 3' still use those old model Mirandas, Excelsiors, D7/K'tinga's and Winged Defenders (source-Resurrected Starships) - They are all literally 'Ahead of their Time', but in a bad way in terms of practicality. One could say the needed 'Next Generation' technology. Unfortunately for the Miranda and Excelsior, the 'Next Generation' (Enterprise-D + Deep Space Nine) era is 2 or 3 generations later; as well as facing threats unimaginable for the optimistic designers of their day.
@@yodaslovetoy To be technical he was 'Captain of Engineering' at the time of the Excelcior's 'maiden voyage'. Later on in the same movie he gave his name and rank as 'COMMANDER' Montgomery Scott.
true the Ambassador and Galaxy kinda go back to that Constitution aesthetic albeit much more excelsior actually has much more in common with the sovereign class.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Actually sovereign doesn't even have a neck. The saucer is molded directly into the secondary hull to eliminate that glaring weakness.
It did not need to be that way if Star fleet had upgraded their Excelsiors ASAP after the re-emergence the Romulans' Dederidex Warbird, learned the lessons of the Cardassian Border Wars and the Borg incursions.
@@ChairmanMo indeed. The Lakota's upgrades should've been standard by the time the Dominion came around. Every ship in the fleet should've gone through similar upgrades the moment the Cardassians started putting up a serious fight. Weapons technology research and development should've been invested in. The best tactical, scientific, and engineering minds should've been working on better shields, hull armour and a counter to spiral wave disrupters. Obviously a focus on ground combat elements to counter the Cardassians in that side along with better planetary defenses.
And yet, we say Miranda's getting splashed left and right in the Dominion War- trying to think of more than one Excelsior getting manhandled (there was that one at Chintoka, but other than that one...)
_"Success consist of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Sir Winston Churchill_ In many ways the Excelsior-class is the Federation equivalent of the Nimitz-class supercarriers or M48/M60 Patton main-battle tank. A revolutionary new innovation in ship/vehicular technology that helped to further cement the predominance of their manufacturer. Existing with a long service life and a great amount of variants and refits. The Excelsior does indeed live up to it's name.
i was thinking about the Nimitz recently with its age. which is closing in on 50 years of service. and frankly could go on longer as a Helicopter carrier. so actually the excelsiors lifespan isn't that unusual. (just a quick jab) while you guys were working on your 'King-tiger' rip-off we had Chieftain! (british noises) :p
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 Nimitz becomes a Helicopter carrier given current US naval supremacy in tonnage, range, tech, & armament and how only the UK, France, & Japan (all US allies) are similar in terms of quality & range of surface ships and naval traditions. Meanwhile _USS Constitution_ and _HMS Victory_ are both 200+ years old and still in commission. Also, you Brits indeed love to have all of your tanks classes start with the letter "C" for some reason.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The fact that the transwarp technology had time dilation problems and affected the crew as it did, would have made me strongly consider moving off of it, and simply researching what would eventually become quantum slipstream. If, instead, Starfleet had simply planned for Excelsior to be a "bigger, badder" version of the Constitution, with more advanced warp and computer systems.....they would have saved themselves a lot of headaches. I wouldn't have worried too much about being so much FASTER than the Klingons (although that's a good thing); I would have wanted a ship that was armed to the teeth, and could blow whatever the Empire came up with out of space! 10 phaser banks?? How about 20?!? 6 torpedo tubes? Let's TRIPLE that! he ship's size certainly could have accommodated it! Keep the more advanced computer systems, return the transporter systems to their original design, and - BAM! A ship the Klingons (and anyone else) wouldn't want to dance with!!! The US Navy would benefit from the same kind of thinking; instead of more advanced aircraft carriers (which no one else in the world has).... why not build a *heavy cruiser* that's based off of, say, a Wasp-class amphibious ship. Strip out the fighters and their support systems, and redesign the hull for a smaller deck - but one that's chock full of missile launchers and heavy guns (including rail and directed-energy weapons)! Leave some deck space to launch and recover a small number of helicopters, drones, etc., and use the rest of the space for cruise and attack missile launchers! Give the ship such a long-range hit capability (for both land and sea targets) that you could send it anywhere and have it just be a huge missile platform! Instead of a conventional electric or gas-powered propulsion system, put 2-4 smaller thorium nuclear reactors onboard for ship's power (that number of reactors should approach the capability of an aircraft carrier - with fuel that doesn't need to be replaced every 20 years)! After you strip out the fighters and their support systems, there would be enough room for all of this! Smaller crews, too; and you could probably design in larger sickbays, mess halls, etc. for disaster relief support; in case you need to send in ships for that purpose, but don't want to tie up an aircraft carrier. The ship could also have the latest off-the-shelf computer and communications systems, as well; no new stuff to be designed is needed! *I bet a ship like that could be had for a billion a ship; instead of 6-10 billion for an aircraft carrier! *A new heavy cruiser class like that could be used in smaller task forces with the new cruisers and frigates the Navy will be building within the next few years; as well as working independently (something you really can't do with a carrier)!*
@@SeatBill when it comes to Armament the excelsior is very strong for its day. with more than double the firepower of a consituiton only rivalled by the Romulan Nova class which had 10 disruptors and 6 torpedo tubes. however it would be much slower than excelsior. so its really a case of what you need rather than what you could have. when it comes to applying that to Modern Naval vessels. as far as i can tell air power is still king. now weather you need to be using manned aircraft or drones is another question. but aircraft greatly extend the effective striking distance of a fleet. Equally modern CWIS systems do appear to be effective against anti-ship missiles, so with the develpment of KEM munitions and Railguns 'Battleships' of a kind may return. but most of that tech is still in its infancy and given that we haven't found a need to change from current doctrine we likely won't until its shown to be outdated.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 And yet, by the time of the 24th century, an Excelsior-class starship couldn't put away a Defiant-class in a heated battle; even after having been upgraded (DS9, the Dominion war). Yes, air power is still important in modern navies; but aircraft carriers are EXPENSIVE to build and maintain; while hypersonic weapons systems, which are coming into being, make ships like heavy cruisers serious threats by throw weight alone! If I can file hypersonic missiles from a heavy cruiser like the one I described from 600-800 miles away, knowing that I can hit my targets within A FEW MINUTES.... instead of launching aircraft, waiting until they flew close enough to release their weapons, and then flew BACK to the ship - well, that would give me serious tactical advantages, wouldn't it? Add to that my complement of cruise missiles and armed drones.... and I could SATURATE an enemy target - whether on land, or sea - from a greater distance, and not risk pilots in the process! And if the enemy fired back at me, I could move my ship quite a distance with evasive maneuvers, far faster than I could an aircraft carrier! I'm not saying aircraft carriers are useless; I'm saying that I'd have much more tactical and strategic flexibility, if I had sufficient numbers of heavy cruisers armed with the latest weapons, that I could move around a lot, and put where I needed to put them without worrying so much about getting hit in return.
This reminds me of the Mig 25 vs F 15 arms race of the cold war. I also got a chuckle out of the closed-loop feedback control loop diagram at 14:46. It's been a while since I had to memorize that for an exam. It's a old concept but anything that uses automation is still based on this. Steam boiler control, cruise control in your car, and of course naval or aviation autopilot control. And I have no doubt systems of the future will continue to rely on this as a starting point. Enjoying your writing skills.
We know that the Excelsior was designed to test a new warp drive, that it became the Federation flagship at one time and saw screen time in TNG and DS9. In my head cannon, the Excelsior was built sturdy, powerful and upgradable to give it the ability to deal with the new engine technology and that kept it relevant for decades longer than other ship designs.
Always find it intriguing that during the 23th century and hot and cold war period of the federation/Klingon wars and rivalry. That whenever one of the powers get a tactical advantage, it spurs the opposition to respond and come up with something of equal military weight that can stand up to enemy's super warship. As D6 leads to development of the aries class, D7 causes development of the constitution class and then as you mention above excelsior class leads to attempted development of the d10.
The excelsior is one of my favourite ships ever, it looks beautiful and is absolutely iconic. I do also like the use of the excelsior concept design in the video, nice touch
An excelsior in the 2370 is like if a WW2 navy took an old pre dreadnought battleship, gutted it and refit everything they could, and reclassified it a light cruiser.
So, only semi-related but its something I just remembered and thought was interesting to mention. The Time Warping effect of the Transwarp drive, causing the crew to age rapidly is actually the reason for the cryo-tubes on starships in the Alien universe. According the Colonial Marines Technical manual, once a ship passes the speed of light, the Time Dilation effect that causes relative time to slow down as one approaches the speed of light, is inverted and you begin to experience Time Expansion. As a result, time runs much faster aboard a ship and the crew potentially start to age much faster. Thus, the crew go into cryogenic sleep for the voyage since a journey at FTL that is only a few weeks in real space, could be several months or even years aboard the ship.
intresting. i'm not familiar with the tech of the aliens universe but that does seem like a good solution for an unusual problem. i think its similar in halo. we do see cryo-tech used in the 23rd century on ships like the Klingon D-10 and in TNGs the 'Emissary' i think because of the relatively slow warp speeds of the time, combined with the wide dispersion of colonies across space.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think in Halo, the issue is more that FTL travel trough Slipspace, causes serious genetic damage, so crew have to go into cryosleep in order to avoid becoming seriously ill during the voyage.
@@Sgt_Glory Kinda made me want a game set in the Aliens universe that was just about the Colonial Marines. No xenomorphs, just the Marines doing what Marines do
The original ship design would be an excellent command ship. The ability to slow down time and in a pinch overtake all other ships surely would have led to far more developed tactics on the battlefield.
Admiral Cartwright did what he did out of fear... Not out of malice... he wanted the Federation to keep the Klingons as an enemy. Considering he had a popular opinion at the time. The Klingons were never shown to be trustworthy. It was even said at the time.
@@shep9231 True but if there was a genuine chance for peace he should have done his duty to help make it happen. Also you can't just undermine Civilian authority.
You could argue that Klingons did something between 2287 and 2293 that turned relations even more sour. Kirk went back to disliking Klingons openly and Cartwright was less level headed than in 2286. Let's not forget Chekov's attitude. Even Valeris. Most likely this was before Gorkon came to power as well.
This ship class is by far the best looking out of every design the way it looks just reminds me of the majesty of a large sea creature though it looks slow she surprises you with her daring speed and maneuverability, if ever I wanted a command this would be at the top of my list
The Ingram class is a related but alternate design of the Excelsior, designed as a "Space Control Ship" variant of the Excelsior class. You probably could have worked her into the lore as beating out the USS Proxima for the 2001 contract, and entering limited production as a leaner (and arguably more militaristic) version of the same concept, as well as serving as a testbed for the ultimately unfruitful Transwarp experiments, before the order was given to discontinue them after every attempt to compensate for the premature aging and fatigue failed, and was retrofitted with standard warp. IRL, the Ingram is an old design, going back as far as 1986.
This video is exceptional! Thank you. I loved that you addressed the crew aging problem. I didn't realize this version of transwarp was a health hazard. Yikes!
My dude.... you’ve just successful explained warp drive AND tied a beautiful little Lore-Bow on it. Damn Venom, brilliant brother. Honestly. Brilliant.
I do find it interesting that the Constitution class was in service for roughly 25-30 years, but the Excelsior is in continuous service for close to a century. That said, that was a near century when the Federation didn't really have any real enemies to contend. They were allies with the Klingons, the Romulans had going into isolation and there simply weren't any powers in the Alpha and Beta quadrants that could really present a credible threat. So, it begs the question, was the Excelsior really such an excellent design, or was Star Fleet just complacent?
given that the connie is already in service during DISCO it would point to it being built in the 40s giving it a total of 50 years in service. granted thats not 100. i think its a combination. the federation was clearly complacent but as i say the only competition for the excelsior was the Romulan Nova class so it really was revolutionary in its day.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Disco was only 10 years before the original series and the Connie was introduced during the four years war, which was also just year years before TOS started. The original Enterprise was set to be decommissioned after only 20 years service and Enterprise-A only a few years after that
I love how he vaguely hints at how Discovery vanished out of existence with "Two ships disappeared with alternative drives." Beautifully handled, great assassination of a worthless series, leaving very little if at all ANY, to clean up. Lol.
I'm always curious how a Klingon becomes an engineer. "I will bring glory to my house by achieving a higher warp threshold! May all my enemies die from eating my dust!"
Speaking of the D-10, it would be interesting to see the development of the Klingon D-# ship line. Also to anyone who reads this comment; what is your preferred Star Trek warp-scale?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; It appears I missed that video. Just watched and it was quite informative on that linage. I'm still quite curious on the D-8 and D-9 as those two I have only encountered them once or twice. I wonder if there will ever be a D-11?
Great explanation of the Excelsior Class. Some of the information I had known before from various technical manuals. However, this video brought together all of the relevant advanced ship design/technology in a way that explains USS Discovery's place in the fleet as a failed design not able to be replicated again. The video also adequately explains to people (what I have been attempting to say for 20-years) that the warp factor was recalculated for the TNG-era ships. From WF^3 (TOS-era) to WF^5 (third power warp factor ---> fifth power warp factor), which in terms of speed is shown: Speed of light in miles per second = 186,282 (a constant in the known "vacuum space" universe) TOS-era: WF3: 3^3 * 186,282 = 5,029,614 miles per second WF8: 8^3 * 186,282 = 95,376,384 miles per second TNG/DS9/VOY era: WF3: 3^5 * 186,282 = 45,266,526 miles per second WF8: 8^5 * 186,282 = 6,104,088,576 miles per second Engage!
I love these “wings of trek” videos! Takes me back to OLD school Discovery Channel “wings”, especially “wings of the Red Star”. If that’s a deliberate inspiration, kudos!
It's simple really... The Excelsior was built with big dreams. When those dream where dashed, the Excelsior space-frame had plenty of space to fit future technology, unlike the Constitution class, which was jam packed. The warp core of the day is so large that the neck was still necessary, unlike later ships like the Defiant and Voyager. The internal volume of the Excelsior must be huge! That said, later versions like the Enterprise B probably had bigger and heavier equipment, which necessitates bigger impulse engine to maintain its maneuverability.
This story parallels almost exactly how the United States developed the F-15 Eagle Air Superiority fighter as a counter to the perceived threat of the Soviet MiG 25 Foxbat (which was only seen with low resolution satellite imagery and partial data from Israeli F-4s which were too slow to intercept.) Once the Foxbat was proven to be less of a threat (it’s Mach 3+ capabilities being negated by the engines being rendered useless and discarded after every flight at that speed), the F-15 remained a dominant force and has served in all major US conflicts since it entered service in 1976. As of 2022, no F-15 has been shot down in air to air combat (and it’s had plenty of opportunities to have been, it’s recorded over 100 arial victories.) It’s also getting a new variant, the F-15EX “Eagle II” with virtually the same airframe design, which comes with more enhanced capabilities and means that it’ll serve well into the 2050s (potentially outliving “The Next Generation” F-22A “Raptor”) I really enjoyed this video, by the way. Great visuals, great explanations!
Well with Voyager bringing back Transwarp technology I would figure you would see true transwarp within 20 years of its return. All of the tech they would have gleamed from Voyager alone would have jumped Starfleets technology forward 50 to hundreds of years ahead.
Excelsior is often referred to in beta canon as a battleship. It was significantly more powerful than previous heavy cruisers, and possibly outclassed the Klingon B10. Should we assume the Federation continued using the "heavy cruiser" designation to avoid the term."battleship"?
Watching this unpacking my eaglemoss xl excelsior great vid sir Love the tech talk only us to quote the great stan Lee true believers love stuff like this Honestly earned your rank 👍
This should have been the end all lesson for starfleet and the federation. If we have an overwhelming quality advantage and can put it in a mass product and build it, we have peace. The B10 was a joke, the Nova would never have the numbers. The federation built the Excelsior like we build cars 🤣🤣. When starfleet is the apex predator, the federation has a golden age.
Good lord, I've wondered - since seeing Search for Spock in the cinema on release - what the deal was with transwarp and why it was never used (or even mentioned) again....this is the first time I've seen a proper explanation, thank you for this!
I remember starting into the show thinking that the constitution class was like an old car that had curves and was nostalgic, then I learned of the excelsior class and I found it ugly, too big and round as if having a massive thing stuck in it's neck, eventually however I learned of its lore and I started appreciating how it was not just different, but an evolution and improvement over the constitution, it was built on Kirk's era and still was around to fight the dominion, if that's not quality, then nothing is. There is even a mk-2 version of the class on picards era.
Dude I watched your channel grow and become something special your your are at the level as shows like treks yards and some ways even better keep up the great work🤠
We don’t agree about transwarp drive. Interesting explanation. Notice how much larger the nacelles relative to ship size the nacelles of the Excelsior are over the Constitution refit?
"I remember when I first saw the 'Great Experiment' for myself, and wasn't impressed. Rumors were already flying around that if the Excelsior was successful, it would lead to a whole new class that would replace our beloved Constitutions. I scoffed at this. As far as I was concerned, nothing could replace the starships I had served aboard for most of my career... ...then came the Khitomer Accords years later. I remember when I heard the news. I was having coffee with a friend of mine in the lounge of Earth Spacedock when he gave me the bad news. I paused mid-sip, looked at my ship, saw the Excelsior was docked right next to her, and muttered 'Ah, hell'." Captain Martin Schroeder (ret) USS Essex NCC-1727 Constitution class
looks at the Klingon Warp Bubble, thinks if i fly my Constitution upside down, have swapped from Starfleet to Klingon Geometry? its cant be that simple.....
Fast forward to the years of Voyager, I was hoping the Federation Scientists would have improved Transwarp, Coaxial drive and Slipstream technologies. The addition of Transphasic torpedos and tricobalt devices would make for a powerful deterrent. Now for the Federation to develop Regenerative Shields, Active Body Armor with built in weapons and personal shields for the MACOs (marines). I know the Federation was not suppose to be a military power but after the Borg and Dominion it is time to rethink and create some pure war ships.
@Snake Plisken I would have loved it if Axanar was allowed to be done the original way. It was a war with the Klingon's and if the Federation did not start acting like warriors there would have been on federation. Technology against technology, skill against skill, it would have been a great movie.
I've always had a love hate Passion for those star fleet ships that personify an old classic bubble gum machine. CRINGE FACTOR Alibi: I had wished that when Kirk and crew returned from the voyage home back to star fleet at the end of the film they would've been rewarded with the Enterprise B Excelsior class. *It made no sense to put them back on the same enterprise model that already had been decommissioned if you recall they weren't going to do a refit. Starfleet even said she's old. Then magically they got a brand new Same model enterprise.
Venom geek - actually only 2 - 3 Connies were EVER refit , it was customary in the 22nd century to update the Starships ASAP as new Technology was Developed, those Connies that were Destroyed or Damaged were Replaced & Scrapped , with the 1701 Enterprise and 1 - 2 others being the EXCEPTION to the rule. those Damaged & Destroyed Connie variants were replaced w/ NEWER built Constitution class & similar hulls based on the Constitution 1 platform and LATER (23rd Century ) with NEW built Enterprise class starships that resembled the Connie REFIT but were Completely NEW Build & Class. and the REFIT Connie Enterprise 1701 serving as a Testbed for the NEW Enterprise Class starships. and after end of TMP , Enterprise 1701 (refit) was again Upgraded in TWOK , but was 20+ years out of date in ST :III. by end of ST - IV KIRK is again in Command of a Starship and given a NEW Enterprise class Ti-Ho , renamed Enterprise 1701-A. this was a State of the ART Starship including Transwarp Technology , which was deemed a Failure and converted to a Conventional Warp Drive system, similar to REFIT Enterprise but even more Powerful.
I like how this hints that at the height of the Klingon - Federation Cold War (Kirk''s Era, Pre-Praxis), the ship-building arms race between the 'Big 3' of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, is running into a metaphrocial brick wall or cliff edge due to the increasing usage of cutting edge and unstable technologies - Pipe Dreams even. Its a situation that feels really nice and snug with the situation of how/why the said 'Big 3' still use those old model Mirandas, Excelsiors, D7/K'tinga's and Winged Defenders (source-Resurrected Starships) - They are all literally 'Ahead of their Time', but in a bad way in terms of practicality.
One could say the needed 'Next Generation' technology. Unfortunately for the Miranda and Excelsior, the 'Next Generation' (Enterprise-D + Deep Space Nine) era is 2 or 3 generations later; as well as facing threats unimaginable for the optimistic designers of their day.
best examples are in Klingon/Starfleet Academy. the Battleship Yamato and its Klingon Counterpart.
"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stuff up the drain."
- Cmdr Montgomery Scott
Captain*
Which is a point that the Transwarp control computer, crashed because Scotty sabotaged it
@@yodaslovetoy To be technical he was 'Captain of Engineering' at the time of the Excelcior's 'maiden voyage'. Later on in the same movie he gave his name and rank as 'COMMANDER' Montgomery Scott.
As a tradesman I can tell you that's absolutely true. Scotty is most wise.
@@Glacier36 But you can see clearly the rank signs of a CAPTAIN. And Admiral Morrow promoted him to this rank
The Excelsior class is, to me, one of the most beautiful ship designs in all of Star Trek.
I agree
Agreed! The Federation battleship!
Got to love the Excelsior class. Its the genesis for all of star-fleets modern designs
I dunno GALAXY class has a fairly thin neckline.
true the Ambassador and Galaxy kinda go back to that Constitution aesthetic albeit much more excelsior actually has much more in common with the sovereign class.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Actually sovereign doesn't even have a neck. The saucer is molded directly into the secondary hull to eliminate that glaring weakness.
@@JeanLucCaptain yup but the excelsior made the first step towards that by thickening it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yes, the USS Russian Bias🤣
She's still one of the most iconic and beautiful ships developed.
15:15 and this is still the best shot
Aye... and if my Grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
I agree
A ship out of it's time by the end of her life. What a class. Three cheers for the Excelsior!
It did not need to be that way if Star fleet had upgraded their Excelsiors ASAP after the re-emergence the Romulans' Dederidex Warbird, learned the lessons of the Cardassian Border Wars and the Borg incursions.
@@ChairmanMo indeed. The Lakota's upgrades should've been standard by the time the Dominion came around. Every ship in the fleet should've gone through similar upgrades the moment the Cardassians started putting up a serious fight. Weapons technology research and development should've been invested in. The best tactical, scientific, and engineering minds should've been working on better shields, hull armour and a counter to spiral wave disrupters. Obviously a focus on ground combat elements to counter the Cardassians in that side along with better planetary defenses.
Should have called it the USS Montgomery Scott...
And yet, we say Miranda's getting splashed left and right in the Dominion War- trying to think of more than one Excelsior getting manhandled (there was that one at Chintoka, but other than that one...)
_"Success consist of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Sir Winston Churchill_
In many ways the Excelsior-class is the Federation equivalent of the Nimitz-class supercarriers or M48/M60 Patton main-battle tank. A revolutionary new innovation in ship/vehicular technology that helped to further cement the predominance of their manufacturer. Existing with a long service life and a great amount of variants and refits. The Excelsior does indeed live up to it's name.
i was thinking about the Nimitz recently with its age. which is closing in on 50 years of service. and frankly could go on longer as a Helicopter carrier. so actually the excelsiors lifespan isn't that unusual.
(just a quick jab) while you guys were working on your 'King-tiger' rip-off we had Chieftain! (british noises) :p
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 Nimitz becomes a Helicopter carrier given current US naval supremacy in tonnage, range, tech, & armament and how only the UK, France, & Japan (all US allies) are similar in terms of quality & range of surface ships and naval traditions.
Meanwhile _USS Constitution_ and _HMS Victory_ are both 200+ years old and still in commission.
Also, you Brits indeed love to have all of your tanks classes start with the letter "C" for some reason.
That was the best explanation of transwarp I've ever heard.
im glad you like it. i bored many people trying to get it straight in my head.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The fact that the transwarp technology had time dilation problems and affected the crew as it did, would have made me strongly consider moving off of it, and simply researching what would eventually become quantum slipstream. If, instead, Starfleet had simply planned for Excelsior to be a "bigger, badder" version of the Constitution, with more advanced warp and computer systems.....they would have saved themselves a lot of headaches. I wouldn't have worried too much about being so much FASTER than the Klingons (although that's a good thing); I would have wanted a ship that was armed to the teeth, and could blow whatever the Empire came up with out of space! 10 phaser banks?? How about 20?!? 6 torpedo tubes? Let's TRIPLE that! he ship's size certainly could have accommodated it! Keep the more advanced computer systems, return the transporter systems to their original design, and - BAM! A ship the Klingons (and anyone else) wouldn't want to dance with!!!
The US Navy would benefit from the same kind of thinking; instead of more advanced aircraft carriers (which no one else in the world has).... why not build a *heavy cruiser* that's based off of, say, a Wasp-class amphibious ship. Strip out the fighters and their support systems, and redesign the hull for a smaller deck - but one that's chock full of missile launchers and heavy guns (including rail and directed-energy weapons)! Leave some deck space to launch and recover a small number of helicopters, drones, etc., and use the rest of the space for cruise and attack missile launchers! Give the ship such a long-range hit capability (for both land and sea targets) that you could send it anywhere and have it just be a huge missile platform! Instead of a conventional electric or gas-powered propulsion system, put 2-4 smaller thorium nuclear reactors onboard for ship's power (that number of reactors should approach the capability of an aircraft carrier - with fuel that doesn't need to be replaced every 20 years)! After you strip out the fighters and their support systems, there would be enough room for all of this! Smaller crews, too; and you could probably design in larger sickbays, mess halls, etc. for disaster relief support; in case you need to send in ships for that purpose, but don't want to tie up an aircraft carrier. The ship could also have the latest off-the-shelf computer and communications systems, as well; no new stuff to be designed is needed! *I bet a ship like that could be had for a billion a ship; instead of 6-10 billion for an aircraft carrier! *A new heavy cruiser class like that could be used in smaller task forces with the new cruisers and frigates the Navy will be building within the next few years; as well as working independently (something you really can't do with a carrier)!*
@@SeatBill when it comes to Armament the excelsior is very strong for its day. with more than double the firepower of a consituiton only rivalled by the Romulan Nova class which had 10 disruptors and 6 torpedo tubes. however it would be much slower than excelsior. so its really a case of what you need rather than what you could have.
when it comes to applying that to Modern Naval vessels. as far as i can tell air power is still king. now weather you need to be using manned aircraft or drones is another question. but aircraft greatly extend the effective striking distance of a fleet.
Equally modern CWIS systems do appear to be effective against anti-ship missiles, so with the develpment of KEM munitions and Railguns 'Battleships' of a kind may return.
but most of that tech is still in its infancy and given that we haven't found a need to change from current doctrine we likely won't until its shown to be outdated.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 And yet, by the time of the 24th century, an Excelsior-class starship couldn't put away a Defiant-class in a heated battle; even after having been upgraded (DS9, the Dominion war).
Yes, air power is still important in modern navies; but aircraft carriers are EXPENSIVE to build and maintain; while hypersonic weapons systems, which are coming into being, make ships like heavy cruisers serious threats by throw weight alone! If I can file hypersonic missiles from a heavy cruiser like the one I described from 600-800 miles away, knowing that I can hit my targets within A FEW MINUTES.... instead of launching aircraft, waiting until they flew close enough to release their weapons, and then flew BACK to the ship - well, that would give me serious tactical advantages, wouldn't it? Add to that my complement of cruise missiles and armed drones.... and I could SATURATE an enemy target - whether on land, or sea - from a greater distance, and not risk pilots in the process! And if the enemy fired back at me, I could move my ship quite a distance with evasive maneuvers, far faster than I could an aircraft carrier!
I'm not saying aircraft carriers are useless; I'm saying that I'd have much more tactical and strategic flexibility, if I had sufficient numbers of heavy cruisers armed with the latest weapons, that I could move around a lot, and put where I needed to put them without worrying so much about getting hit in return.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Agreed, best explanation out there.
A ship that even in failure is considered the greatest success in the galaxy as a whole.
This reminds me of the Mig 25 vs F 15 arms race of the cold war.
I also got a chuckle out of the closed-loop feedback control loop diagram at 14:46. It's been a while since I had to memorize that for an exam. It's a old concept but anything that uses automation is still based on this. Steam boiler control, cruise control in your car, and of course naval or aviation autopilot control. And I have no doubt systems of the future will continue to rely on this as a starting point.
Enjoying your writing skills.
Yes it probably will. Of course when TOS and the films were being made fly by wire was a new technology
"aye and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon" scotty
“Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.”
We know that the Excelsior was designed to test a new warp drive, that it became the Federation flagship at one time and saw screen time in TNG and DS9.
In my head cannon, the Excelsior was built sturdy, powerful and upgradable to give it the ability to deal with the new engine technology and that kept it relevant for decades longer than other ship designs.
Always find it intriguing that during the 23th century and hot and cold war period of the federation/Klingon wars and rivalry. That whenever one of the powers get a tactical advantage, it spurs the opposition to respond and come up with something of equal military weight that can stand up to enemy's super warship. As D6 leads to development of the aries class, D7 causes development of the constitution class and then as you mention above excelsior class leads to attempted development of the d10.
The excelsior is one of my favourite ships ever, it looks beautiful and is absolutely iconic. I do also like the use of the excelsior concept design in the video, nice touch
An excelsior in the 2370 is like if a WW2 navy took an old pre dreadnought battleship, gutted it and refit everything they could, and reclassified it a light cruiser.
This is why the Excelsiors probably got beat up pretty badly during the Dominion War.
Starfleet took too long to replace the Mirandas and Excelsiors...
True though bear in mind the US did use battleships in the gulf war
@@venomgeekmedia9886 It was more for show. They were facing Iraq...here....
@@ChairmanMo true.
So, only semi-related but its something I just remembered and thought was interesting to mention. The Time Warping effect of the Transwarp drive, causing the crew to age rapidly is actually the reason for the cryo-tubes on starships in the Alien universe. According the Colonial Marines Technical manual, once a ship passes the speed of light, the Time Dilation effect that causes relative time to slow down as one approaches the speed of light, is inverted and you begin to experience Time Expansion. As a result, time runs much faster aboard a ship and the crew potentially start to age much faster. Thus, the crew go into cryogenic sleep for the voyage since a journey at FTL that is only a few weeks in real space, could be several months or even years aboard the ship.
intresting. i'm not familiar with the tech of the aliens universe but that does seem like a good solution for an unusual problem. i think its similar in halo.
we do see cryo-tech used in the 23rd century on ships like the Klingon D-10 and in TNGs the 'Emissary' i think because of the relatively slow warp speeds of the time, combined with the wide dispersion of colonies across space.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think in Halo, the issue is more that FTL travel trough Slipspace, causes serious genetic damage, so crew have to go into cryosleep in order to avoid becoming seriously ill during the voyage.
I just bought that book recently and I'm just drinking in all the amazing technical detail. A very good read and great illustrations as well.
@@Sgt_Glory Kinda made me want a game set in the Aliens universe that was just about the Colonial Marines. No xenomorphs, just the Marines doing what Marines do
The original ship design would be an excellent command ship. The ability to slow down time and in a pinch overtake all other ships surely would have led to far more developed tactics on the battlefield.
The Excelsior was a true masterpiece of engineering. She was also a work of art.
Saving the excelsior class was the best thing that traitor admiral Cartwright ever did for starfleet. Great video - love that excelsior
Admiral Cartwright did what he did out of fear... Not out of malice... he wanted the Federation to keep the Klingons as an enemy. Considering he had a popular opinion at the time. The Klingons were never shown to be trustworthy. It was even said at the time.
@@shep9231 True but if there was a genuine chance for peace he should have done his duty to help make it happen. Also you can't just undermine Civilian authority.
You could argue that Klingons did something between 2287 and 2293 that turned relations even more sour. Kirk went back to disliking Klingons openly and Cartwright was less level headed than in 2286. Let's not forget Chekov's attitude. Even Valeris. Most likely this was before Gorkon came to power as well.
Loved what they did with the Lakota in DS9
Also...Transwarp tends to play havoc temporally on evolution of a lifeform...
Yes, I went there...*bows*
*(Levels flame thrower with malicious intent)* We do NOT speak of that HERESY Citizen!!!
This ship class is by far the best looking out of every design the way it looks just reminds me of the majesty of a large sea creature though it looks slow she surprises you with her daring speed and maneuverability, if ever I wanted a command this would be at the top of my list
The Ingram class is a related but alternate design of the Excelsior, designed as a "Space Control Ship" variant of the Excelsior class. You probably could have worked her into the lore as beating out the USS Proxima for the 2001 contract, and entering limited production as a leaner (and arguably more militaristic) version of the same concept, as well as serving as a testbed for the ultimately unfruitful Transwarp experiments, before the order was given to discontinue them after every attempt to compensate for the premature aging and fatigue failed, and was retrofitted with standard warp.
IRL, the Ingram is an old design, going back as far as 1986.
This video is exceptional! Thank you. I loved that you addressed the crew aging problem. I didn't realize this version of transwarp was a health hazard. Yikes!
My dude.... you’ve just successful explained warp drive AND tied a beautiful little Lore-Bow on it. Damn Venom, brilliant brother. Honestly. Brilliant.
You only just saw this one? Glad you enjoyed
Excelsior Class isn’t my favorite starship but I do appreciate the backstories behind this class.
Love your historical approach to StarTrek lore behind the Excelsior & especially the reason for the new warp speed scale.
"My friend's, the great experiment, the Excelsior."
"Aye, and if my Grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon."
Wow! I’ve always been a big Trekkie and never could figure out exactly what transwarp drive was. You described it perfectly to understand! Thank you
Another great story, which was not told so directly until now. You are worth every penny you get, mate.
That was a really amazing video the Excelsior class really is an absolutely beautiful Starship
Can't wait. I love the excelsior. Such an elegant design.
timeless one might say...
I do find it interesting that the Constitution class was in service for roughly 25-30 years, but the Excelsior is in continuous service for close to a century. That said, that was a near century when the Federation didn't really have any real enemies to contend. They were allies with the Klingons, the Romulans had going into isolation and there simply weren't any powers in the Alpha and Beta quadrants that could really present a credible threat. So, it begs the question, was the Excelsior really such an excellent design, or was Star Fleet just complacent?
given that the connie is already in service during DISCO it would point to it being built in the 40s giving it a total of 50 years in service. granted thats not 100. i think its a combination. the federation was clearly complacent but as i say the only competition for the excelsior was the Romulan Nova class so it really was revolutionary in its day.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Disco was only 10 years before the original series and the Connie was introduced during the four years war, which was also just year years before TOS started. The original Enterprise was set to be decommissioned after only 20 years service and Enterprise-A only a few years after that
@@weldonwin the 20 years line in TSFS was clearly wrong as it is established canon that 1701 was commissioned in 2245 and TSFS was set in 2285
@@JCtechwizard beta canon novels usually say that Morrow was also bad with numbers too.
Never turn your back on the Breen.
i love the thing that makes transwarp less desireable but actually working well. love it
The Excelsior-class, by far, is my favorite Federation starship class. It's absolutely gorgeous.
I love how he vaguely hints at how Discovery vanished out of existence with "Two ships disappeared with alternative drives." Beautifully handled, great assassination of a worthless series, leaving very little if at all ANY, to clean up.
Lol.
I'm always curious how a Klingon becomes an engineer. "I will bring glory to my house by achieving a higher warp threshold! May all my enemies die from eating my dust!"
I mean, they reconize the cloaking device as a strategem of war. Maneuver is just another tool to bring weapons to bear on their enemies
Speaking of the D-10, it would be interesting to see the development of the Klingon D-# ship line.
Also to anyone who reads this comment; what is your preferred Star Trek warp-scale?
i did cover that in the 'Wings of Kahless' D7 episode. and personally TNG scale.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; It appears I missed that video. Just watched and it was quite informative on that linage. I'm still quite curious on the D-8 and D-9 as those two I have only encountered them once or twice. I wonder if there will ever be a D-11?
Great explanation of the Excelsior Class. Some of the information I had known before from various technical manuals. However, this video brought together all of the relevant advanced ship design/technology in a way that explains USS Discovery's place in the fleet as a failed design not able to be replicated again.
The video also adequately explains to people (what I have been attempting to say for 20-years) that the warp factor was recalculated for the TNG-era ships. From WF^3 (TOS-era) to WF^5 (third power warp factor ---> fifth power warp factor), which in terms of speed is shown:
Speed of light in miles per second = 186,282 (a constant in the known "vacuum space" universe)
TOS-era:
WF3: 3^3 * 186,282 = 5,029,614 miles per second
WF8: 8^3 * 186,282 = 95,376,384 miles per second
TNG/DS9/VOY era:
WF3: 3^5 * 186,282 = 45,266,526 miles per second
WF8: 8^5 * 186,282 = 6,104,088,576 miles per second
Engage!
I love these “wings of trek” videos! Takes me back to OLD school Discovery Channel “wings”, especially “wings of the Red Star”.
If that’s a deliberate inspiration, kudos!
It's simple really... The Excelsior was built with big dreams. When those dream where dashed, the Excelsior space-frame had plenty of space to fit future technology, unlike the Constitution class, which was jam packed.
The warp core of the day is so large that the neck was still necessary, unlike later ships like the Defiant and Voyager. The internal volume of the Excelsior must be huge! That said, later versions like the Enterprise B probably had bigger and heavier equipment, which necessitates bigger impulse engine to maintain its maneuverability.
This story parallels almost exactly how the United States developed the F-15 Eagle Air Superiority fighter as a counter to the perceived threat of the Soviet MiG 25 Foxbat (which was only seen with low resolution satellite imagery and partial data from Israeli F-4s which were too slow to intercept.) Once the Foxbat was proven to be less of a threat (it’s Mach 3+ capabilities being negated by the engines being rendered useless and discarded after every flight at that speed), the F-15 remained a dominant force and has served in all major US conflicts since it entered service in 1976. As of 2022, no F-15 has been shot down in air to air combat (and it’s had plenty of opportunities to have been, it’s recorded over 100 arial victories.) It’s also getting a new variant, the F-15EX “Eagle II” with virtually the same airframe design, which comes with more enhanced capabilities and means that it’ll serve well into the 2050s (potentially outliving “The Next Generation” F-22A “Raptor”)
I really enjoyed this video, by the way. Great visuals, great explanations!
Nice! I was waiting all week for this
Thank you!
"UP YER SHAFT"
Chief Engineer "The Transwarp Surgeon" Montgomery.
Edit Just noticed the Nimitz Class!
Your synopsis and data of timeline are excellent. Such great research and analysis..........Thank You!
I like how the saucer section looked like a CD player instead of a coaster.
Once again you impress! Great video! I always look forward to these videos! 👍
Venom is amazing and I pray he grows and expands exponentially! Such talent deserves it!
Well with Voyager bringing back Transwarp technology I would figure you would see true transwarp within 20 years of its return. All of the tech they would have gleamed from Voyager alone would have jumped Starfleets technology forward 50 to hundreds of years ahead.
Excelsior is often referred to in beta canon as a battleship. It was significantly more powerful than previous heavy cruisers, and possibly outclassed the Klingon B10. Should we assume the Federation continued using the "heavy cruiser" designation to avoid the term."battleship"?
I love the melding of Star Trek and Star Fleet Battle lore in this video.
Excellent Work as usual
Fantastic video I think we have all been waiting for a decent explanation of transwarp and the great experiment since the old movies
the surprising thing was that no one had tried. which is quite unusual...
Sweet. A new Venom Geek video.
Watching this unpacking my eaglemoss xl excelsior great vid sir
Love the tech talk only us to quote the great stan Lee true believers love stuff like this
Honestly earned your rank 👍
Great tribute to my favorite ship of all time! Salute and thank you!
Great video! Great history! Love the series!
This should have been the end all lesson for starfleet and the federation. If we have an overwhelming quality advantage and can put it in a mass product and build it, we have peace. The B10 was a joke, the Nova would never have the numbers. The federation built the Excelsior like we build cars 🤣🤣. When starfleet is the apex predator, the federation has a golden age.
The depth of knowledge and love of Trek lore. Thank you for your channel.
This ship alone is worthy of a Star Trek mini series spin off.
This video is extremely well put together. I loved it! Nice one!
Brilliant, just Brilliant.
Now you've made me love the Excelsior!
Good lord, I've wondered - since seeing Search for Spock in the cinema on release - what the deal was with transwarp and why it was never used (or even mentioned) again....this is the first time I've seen a proper explanation, thank you for this!
I remember starting into the show thinking that the constitution class was like an old car that had curves and was nostalgic, then I learned of the excelsior class and I found it ugly, too big and round as if having a massive thing stuck in it's neck, eventually however I learned of its lore and I started appreciating how it was not just different, but an evolution and improvement over the constitution, it was built on Kirk's era and still was around to fight the dominion, if that's not quality, then nothing is.
There is even a mk-2 version of the class on picards era.
The grand old lady of the fleet and a grand video too.
We'll done and I hope you do more ships of the fleet. How about some FASA ships.
possibly. depends how much is out there. i have to say i do like the Andor class.
Got to give it to Cartwright, he was always right.
Dude I watched your channel grow and become something special your your are at the level as shows like treks yards and some ways even better keep up the great work🤠
Totally loved this ! Thanxs 🖖🏻😎
Good morning and great video
21:10 ! "She would RRRRRRRRemaaaiiiinnn!!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The design has grown on me over the years.
Love the intro, I may be the only human that did not mind the overly sappy and so not star trek intro to Enterprise :)
your not alone. though i prefer the season 3/4 song. though personally i think they should have stuck with the ends credits theme.
Lol the time thing is funny as hell
That was a wonderful video
I would gladly serve on an excelsior any day
still a ship of the 23rd century. very cramped.
Thank you for giving Vic Mignogna some cred! I only know him from Trek, and believe he got a raw deal.
The more I learn about the Excelsior class, the more I’m convinced it is the greatest starship design in history.
We don’t agree about transwarp drive. Interesting explanation. Notice how much larger the nacelles relative to ship size the nacelles of the Excelsior are over the Constitution refit?
She's a good ship
She's the grand old lady of the fleet
After the Lakota refit it should be give phase stripes.
To up even more fire power.
I am a fan of your work and I have to say you done an exemplary job on this video.
"I remember when I first saw the 'Great Experiment' for myself, and wasn't impressed. Rumors were already flying around that if the Excelsior was successful, it would lead to a whole new class that would replace our beloved Constitutions. I scoffed at this. As far as I was concerned, nothing could replace the starships I had served aboard for most of my career...
...then came the Khitomer Accords years later. I remember when I heard the news. I was having coffee with a friend of mine in the lounge of Earth Spacedock when he gave me the bad news. I paused mid-sip, looked at my ship, saw the Excelsior was docked right next to her, and muttered 'Ah, hell'."
Captain Martin Schroeder (ret)
USS Essex NCC-1727
Constitution class
You forgot, Scotty removed the Excelsior's "sparkplugs".
I'm not really all that into Star Trek, but I love this ship.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very informatively executed and explained indeed 👌...
Great video as always!
looks at the Klingon Warp Bubble, thinks if i fly my Constitution upside down, have swapped from Starfleet to Klingon Geometry? its cant be that simple.....
at that point you may as well Reverse Warp.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 now that would be an interesting aproach to the Koybiashi maru test, flying in upside down and backwards.
@@richardfairbrass5760 they'd never see it coming
@@venomgeekmedia9886 their shocked faces when they realise its not the blakes 7 DSV liberator..
23rd century starfleet: we got transwarp drive!!!! Boom!!!
23rd century borg: hold me beer.....
you call that transwarp? THIS IS TRANSWARP!
Fast forward to the years of Voyager, I was hoping the Federation Scientists would have improved Transwarp, Coaxial drive and Slipstream technologies. The addition of Transphasic torpedos and tricobalt devices would make for a powerful deterrent.
Now for the Federation to develop Regenerative Shields, Active Body Armor with built in weapons and personal shields for the MACOs (marines). I know the Federation was not suppose to be a military power but after the Borg and Dominion it is time to rethink and create some pure war ships.
@Snake Plisken I would have loved it if Axanar was allowed to be done the original way. It was a war with the Klingon's and if the Federation did not start acting like warriors there would have been on federation. Technology against technology, skill against skill, it would have been a great movie.
Good morning captain !.......here doctor a gift from one surgeon to another.
Yes the D-7 the sexiest ass kicker in all of Star Trek evar!
true but she is dwarfed by excelsior.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 true but I’m share you’ve been told size ain’t everything 😉😜😂🤣
@@sithlordjeffbledsoe651 speak for yourself...
Great work nice music choices
glad you agree. some beautiful pieces.
Good video.
But.
"However". A drinking game listening for the word "however" will have you very very drunk.....
Transwarp is so cool as you put it
Ah, my favorite ship in all of Star Fleet
wow the age thing is a great idea and makes sense
Anyways I'm looking forward to this video!
5:58 looks like Chewbacca from Star Wars!
Sam Lewis sure gets around. guess thats when FASA had the Starfleet gaming IP.
I've always had a love hate Passion for those star fleet ships that personify an old classic bubble gum machine.
CRINGE FACTOR
Alibi: I had wished that when Kirk and crew returned from the voyage home back to star fleet at the end of the film they would've been rewarded with the Enterprise B Excelsior class.
*It made no sense to put them back on the same enterprise model that already had been decommissioned if you recall they weren't going to do a refit. Starfleet even said she's old. Then magically they got a brand new Same model enterprise.
Venom geek - actually only 2 - 3 Connies were EVER refit , it was customary in the 22nd century to update the Starships ASAP as new Technology was Developed, those Connies that were Destroyed or Damaged were Replaced & Scrapped , with the 1701 Enterprise and 1 - 2 others being the EXCEPTION to the rule.
those Damaged & Destroyed Connie variants were replaced w/ NEWER built Constitution class & similar hulls based on the Constitution 1 platform and LATER (23rd Century ) with NEW built Enterprise class starships that resembled the Connie REFIT but were Completely NEW Build & Class.
and the REFIT Connie Enterprise 1701 serving as a Testbed for the NEW Enterprise Class starships.
and after end of TMP , Enterprise 1701 (refit) was again Upgraded in TWOK , but was 20+ years out of date in ST :III.
by end of ST - IV KIRK is again in Command of a Starship and given a NEW Enterprise class Ti-Ho , renamed Enterprise 1701-A.
this was a State of the ART Starship including Transwarp Technology , which was deemed a Failure and converted to a Conventional Warp Drive system, similar to REFIT Enterprise but even more Powerful.
brilliant best vid so far