Adventure VS Boost Gameplay - A Sonic Diatribe
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- So with Sonic Forces on the way there's been quite a bit of talk from various contingents within the Sonic fanbase about how the gameplay style it retains, seen in games such as Sonic Unleashed as Sonic Colours can be improved, and when offering solutions, many people will turn to the Sonic Adventure series as strong contenders for what Sonic Team should consider going forward.
Here in this video I want to try and determine what strengths and weaknesses each of these styles have between the two of them, and a little bit about what we could do to get the best of both worlds.
This video is, of course, entirely my opinion and created for entertainment and discussion purposes.
Since I haven't seen anyone do timestamps, I've desided to add them just in case someone needs it.
0:00 Intro
3:31 A Sonic Diatribe
19:36 Design
44:10 Spectacle
57:12 Conclusion
58:48 Outro
This entire video is extremely well crafted even if some info might be outdated.
this deserves more likes just for the fact that u went out of your day to do this. thanks man
@@notme_0 No problem man! I watched the video many times before and I figured "why not make timestamps?"
@@blueblur8569 I salute to you good sir
34:50 is the one moment we must never miss
Why not have both Boost and Adventure formula in one game. The boost is only use to travel between zones. And adventure formula is for open world platform exploration. Best of both world.
"Drifting is my favorite move"
"The boost gauge is almost never empty"
"Modern homing attack has better targeting"
"The space between Point A/B shouldn't be more than just a straight line"
Sonic Forces: Lets take a giant step backwards!
Nah, they took it forward...WAAAY TOO FOWARD
Its evolving... just backwards
The homing attack argument made me laugh in sadness.
How did they screw up such a well known mechanic?
@@saysay7191 yeah, remove the drift and making linear scenarios
They spent all their time trying to remake the Hedgehog Engine, and then had no time to design the actual game.
Sadly sonic isn't even. "3D with a lot of 2D sections" anymore. He's nearly fully 2D with a couple extremely linear 3D section.
*cough cough Sonic Forces
Flying Cat
There are less 2d sections in Generations, Colors, and Unleashed than Forces
Flying Cat
Generations was the most evolved version of the Boost Gameplay
I'm pretty sure a game's difficulty doesn't speak for its quality
@Flying Cat what's ur first fav
Perfect video 10/10, no 2D pls.
RadicalSoda is the *BEST SONIC RUclipsR!*
Jared Burk no I know his a dude
RadicalFart wuz up
poppy porn
I sometimes think you're only famous because everyone is expecting for a perverted girl in the Sonic Suit.
You're like a professional catfisher.
Something I realized recently: Sonic 06 was the last game without 2d sections
Wow that’s correct
Because they didn't want to repeat their biggest mistake. I don't care if they want to appeal to people, the boost formula isn't fun to play when their is a shit ton 2D sections. I don't want Classic Sonic in the games anymore and I hope they make more play styles instead of literally playing as only sonic
Not saying '06 was a good game, I just wish they would've expanded on their ideas and instead of rushing the game
06 was the last adventure style game. But it was such a mess that they completed abandoned that style of game despite having it be good before 06. I’ll never understand Sonic Team’s hard committal to 2D. Colors and Forces are the worst examples of leaning far too heavily on slow 2D platforming.
@@MrNrj6490 The reason actually pretty obvious for colors, the boost gameplay is not optimal for 3d platforming and so moments when you're asked to do some are pretty clunky. But in 2D It's much easier to platform. I can't justify it in generations and unleashed and forces though because they all have alternate playstyles to take care of the platforming.
Classic Sonic fans: I miss Spin Dash :(
Boost Sonic Fans: I love boost!
Adventure Sonic Fans: I miss momentum...
Sonic Rush: Daddy's home
Sonic Venture Plus says hi, albeit without boost.
Where's the momentum in Sonic Rush?
@@ayrtonjoga Play without boosting ;)
@@demaunix2723 Kinda hard to do because of the "surprise mf" enemies and huge amount of bottomless pits, but ok I'll try
@@ayrtonjoga Yeah, don't actually play without boosting. The levels were designed around it and they can be quite fun once you get to learn them. The boost and trick system can also be used to play around with the game's physics, such as boosting off a slope and jumping at the last second to gain major airtime. Using Sonic and Blaze's abilities is also key to making full use of the game's momentum. It's not as central as the classics but it's still there in it's own unique form. Give it a shot!
I much prefer the adventure to the boost gameplay. Less linear, offers more exploration and control of the character(s), and usually still has sections that allow you to get that speed fix you look for in sonic games.
DreamOfTheRebel agreed
DreamOfTheRebel I prefer Adventure as well. But in Unleashed, the levels do courage exploration because of the Sun and Moon medals. And Unleashed is not as linear as people think. In Windmill Isle for example, in the start, when you take your time (do go fast or boost) you can see some neat details, items and a.... Pelican. Huh.
Not to mention you can collect Vinyl's, Art books and VHS tapes which unlock music tracks, Concept art and cutscenes respectively.
Again that’s debatable, both share their strengths and weaknesses.
If the Adventure games were just entirely Sonic/Shadow levels, I'd agree. But it's not. Treasure Hunting and Shooting galleries single handedly kill any want to finish it. Sonic /Shadow levels were good, but if you praise the Adventure games you have to account the entire thing, not just 1/3 of it.
@@gabejr25_82 I do. I do not have any problem with the shooting and treasurehunting is only bad because of the limited radar in SA2 and are otherwise still trying to keep the pace going.
And the argument can be reversed. People like the boostgames because they are not weird? Let's see....Unleashed is mostly werehogstuff, Colors is mostly a 2d game that lacks any sort of flow outside of wisps(Best thing to come out of that game), Generations is partly classic sonic(Best boostgame because it actually follows the suggestion of what sonic should be), Forces is mostly either classic sonic or avatar. Ironically enough, the only newer game that cares for momentum and speed 100% and is always good sonicgameplay is lost world. You know, the game that takes it slower than boost and it hated into oblivion? And even then, that game has a lot of levelgimmicks.
The 2D rant in modern sonic was very cathartic for me.
Here's a replay button 34:34
Ngl, I feel like if it was given enough time and care, sonic 06 could’ve been the gate through which both boost and adventure style games combine into a good game. It had exploration, gameplay and controls that could’ve been easily fixed, multiple characters with different gameplay styles and paces, and high speed sections with cool spectacles. It’s a shame it was sped through its process and didn’t have enough work on it to become a really good sonic game.
would need an overhaul on the story so there isnt a cringe romantic element
abbacus potter
Honestly I feel if the humans were all replaced with animals like in forces it would work better, a romantic subplot is stupid for a sonic game but I feel if Elise was replaced with someone like sally (she was made to be sonics girlfriend which is stupid enough but she is a princess...) it could work ‘better’
If 06 wasn't rushed, even with the horrible story it could've been one of the best games in the franchise
06 really was meant to be Sonic adventure 3
I still really enjoy 06 for what it is. If you get used to the weird air physics, it's not too bad
"Boost to Win" is the EXACT definition of Sonic Forces. Other Sonic games do it better, like Generations.
forces does have a few good stages that you gotta be careful how and when you boost, but not many at all
21 Productions Even Unleashed did it better even then it was still every linear but not to Forces level. Generations was the Boost game at it’s best
@@JohnWilliams-wl9px I agree. Generations was the boost gameplay at it's best.
@@abbacuspotter9232 When I played Forces, I managed to beat every Sonic stage by only boosting. Classic Sonic didn't have good gameplay and had lack luster levels. OC stages were probably the best, but were just Sonic stages without boost. And every level was extremely linear. Boost gameplay was at it's best in Sonic Generations.
And Unleashed.
SA1 was the closest to what the 2D games were.
Yes, there were alternate ways in the same Sonic levels, especially playing with Tails.
It depends. Do you count Sonic 3D Blast as 3D? Because if so, that one is.
Also, I know it is isometric, but actual 3D would only serve to make loops non-scripted, it would not really add anything. I say it's close enough.
Péter Dávid Takács I’ve played sonic generation mods where 3D loops were scripted/done very well
But also boost is awesome too. They need to combine the best qualities. I know just how they could do it.
First... Crouching should be mapped to R1/RB. Boosting obviously should be square/X. When you have a decent amount of speed, you should be able to roll into a ball by pressing the crouch button, not slide when pressing it. This would give you a lot of momentum for downward slopes. You should also be able to crouch, and while holding crouch, you could press the boost button so that you could spin dash. And the more speed that you maintain, the more the boost bar gets full. The boost should be the reward, and the game should encourage the player to save up their boost energy. That’s how it should work. It was never based on rings. Rings in older games just gave you lives. Maybe for every 50 rings you collect, the boost bar would fill, just to be generous. It would still offer more of a challenge than other boost games, and be momentum based at the same time. They also need to make the level design much more open.
Generations also kinda remind me of them since there are many alternate paths even in 3D spaces
I personally preferred the 3D gameplay in the Adventure series, Sonic Heroes and even Shadow the Hedgehog. Idk if that is just nostalgia but eh
Bad story aside, I dont get why people shit on the Shadow game a lot, it's gameplay is a massive improvement from Heroes and people hold Heroes in high regard, despite turning being impossible, light dash glitching and running on loops might glitch and fling you off the stage
LowHPComics I’m with you bro. Like, the game was a mess. Playing the game 10 times for the canon ending was a chore. However, from a gameplay standpoint I thought it was actually really impressive. The guns functioned well, too.
I haven’t played much since I was a child really, but I did play Generations because it was on PS now. Dash formula was refreshing, but felt awkward and held my hand a little bit too much. Felt like I was just holding the boost button and hoping it sticks because I was going in one direction. No verticality or exploration with the exception of multiple pathways
LowHPComics It’s not the controls that are the problem in Shadow (well they are but) it’s the damn stages. Have you ever tried to complete Shadow. Have you tried playing levels like Lost Impact or The Doom ? That’s why the game is hated.
Shadow bored the crap out of me personally but The Adventure games and Heroes were fun the whole way through (except for Team Chaotix in Heroes, and Big and Amy in Adventure)
@@thatonemanbehindthegarbage7126 Exactly, thats the actual main problem with Shadow The Hedgehog. If you just do the neutral missions for the stages, its actually really fun. Its just missions like the Ark Lvls that screw it over or the ones where you kill a set amount of enemies. There are missions that are pretty good like the ones where you destroy a spaceship or Digital Circuits dark mission amd hero mission.
I think Sonic Team is falling into a habit where 2D is relied on too much. Most footage of Forces shows Sonic running through very designated segments with giant banners that scream PLATFORM and HOLD RIGHT. Looking past Sandy Green Hill Zone being in the game and the godawful music in general, you're looking at a game that just isn't learning from it's previous mistakes. Like I said there are very obvious platforming segments and very obvious running segments. But they never meet, when they do meet you went too fast in a space where the game wanted you to slow down and you die.
I feel Twinkle Park is the best example of Classic-Level Design. You can skip the 2nd half of the stage simply by making use of your abilities (You don't even have to go around the castle you can just do three jumps and a spindash to get to the spring that boosts you to the end). However I do feel Boost Gameplay could have a different approach to good level design if most levels were done like Savannah Citadel, where you get rewarded with getting through the stage quicker by dodging highspeed obstacles. Which I personally feel like encaptures Sonic's gameplay.
The games should reward you with going fast by you knowing the level design. If you play Sonic Mania for the first time, there's gonna be deaths and mistakes. But as you play more and more and become used to how the game works and feels, you suddenly will be blasting through the game and finding secrets you didn't before.
Savannah Citadel does something like this by having obstacles pop up that require you to stop holding Boost and slide, drift or quickstep in ways you're not used to. This could be used to fix Sonic's Boost level design and make it more interesting, and more fun to replay. Sure it's annoying getting stopped, but when you play the stage 3 or 4 more times you'll notice you went from 6 minutes to 2 to 1 minute on the stage, which in turn makes you feel like you've mastered the gameplay and you're a better player.
SA2 control was perfect and maintained a perfect skill gap. I think anybody should be able to complete a sonic level, but it should take skill to complete it fast while utilizing the controls. SA2 accomplishes this with the light dash, bounce bracelet, and homing attack.
I disagree, SA1 had better controls, idk why but SA2 feels awkward to control, especially the mechs, I also barely use the Light Dash or the Bouncing because both are tagged in one button, so it can lead some BS deaths
I know in SA1 you had to charge the Light Dash, but the overall controls of the characters were way better, but I agree about the "Skill to Complete Fast", you had to dominate the stage to get an A Rank
@Olivia-nx9vy Sonic is lucky to transition decently into 3d, a lot of franchises like Mega man and Castlevania don't work well in 3d, and no 2.5 d doesn't count.
My biggest problem with the boost gameplay is it makes it feel like an on rails game where you have less control over your movement. It also makes levels feel a lot less different from each other because you're just blasting past everything so fast that you can't even take in the surroundings and level without worrying about boosting into a random spike or pillar.
@Umbuko DaJuko Unleashed is why its the best Boost game. It starts off that way to get a feel for the controls. But continuing to play that way will only punish you in the later levels, Especially Jungle Joyride and Crimson Carnival
Exactly man shit gets boring. Feels like my hand is being held like a baby. Why can't they just give us another Sonic Adventure
MightySo92 play jungle joyride or skyscraper scamper and tell me your hand is being held like a baby
@@EpicCorn0 boost gameplay sucks
Dib Membrane but also when I play a sonic game I’m not trying to play a slow platforming beat em up.
So glad RUclips recommended this to me today. You have a talent with organizing a video essay of this length.
We can only hope that one day Sega and Sonic Team will decide to put together Adventure 3 or some hybrid style that works. In terms of all the Adventure hate that has sprung up in previous years, I can say that with some minor adjustments the Adventure formula could be the perfect way to play Sonic. Plus side content that actually rocks (Chao Garden), one day Sega.. one day.
Linklight go back to my dungeon and make more videos
Omg yes finally someone that totally agrees with me!! and all of you who thumbs up :') The adventure gameplay style is really still my favorite. You know the open world feeling (and exciting interesting storyline) is so cool and refreshing, it really fits Sonic.. That's kinda how 06 and unleashed was too but it's sad that 06 had so many glitches..
And yeah, Chao Garden! it's a must, they must bring it back one day.. Like just imagine online Chao Garden or something, Sega should totally make it, one day.. like if they don't that would be so weird cause who doesn't love Chao! For me the soundtrack in the adventure games is in my opinion, one of the best
Linklight FUCK MAN TOO MUCH 2D gameplays(i get annoyed playing 2D for so long
Sonic level design in 3D started out as open world and explorative with numerous pathways that allow you to think outside the box and cross between each pathway to get to the goal ring. In Sonic Adventure, sonic heroes,Sonic 06
Yo linklight
Tell peeps on some vids to recommend this amazing vid.
Wow this is a very well-made video. I think both the Adventure & Boost formula have their pros and cons, but I guess I'll always prefer the Adventure formula. I don't hate the boost, but I feel the non-boost Sonic games always felt like they had depth, even without the other playstyles. I personally don't think an all-boost game would feel like a "complete" experience without some other/slower playstyle to complement it. When I first played Unleashed, I saw the Werehog as "'padding" that was keeping me from the thrilling boost stages. But as I replayed the game, I fell in love with the Werehog stages as they just ended up being more memorable due to not always just going in a straight line. Sure the combat was very frequent, but at least I had options on how to tackle the enemies.
Imo I see the boost as a secondary playstyle that can be fun but can't carry the game on it's own, kinda like Tails in SA1. Tails is a fun playstyle but he wouldn't be enough if he was the main playstyle of the game. I think Sonic games should have 2-3 playstyles, Sonic could retain the boost for the thrill & spectacle, give Shadow more open stages that control and are inspired by Adventure 1 for more depth, and a third character with some more unique elements (flight/gliding/climbing etc.) to help the game feel fresh.
premydaremy glad you made it premy good points all around
+premydaremy I'm on the spectrum who prefers the Boost games over the Adventure games, but I know the boost games have flaws as well as I know that the Adventure games have some pros over the boost games.
Since, the boost games are right now the go-to gameplay style for Sonic Team, I genuinely think the boost games would benefit immensely from gameplay incentives, just so it can flesh out the game more, since they are the most energetic games from the franchise. And by that I mean, some sort of a style system (which Sonic Adventure 2 actually did in some way, but it wasn't very transparent), that rewards doing cool stuff in the game with a rank and points depending on the action you do. Things like air time, bouncing on multiple enemies in succession (especially without the homing attack), getting batches of rings in rapid succession, etc. You would be going through a dopamine rush, especially when you master the game.
The reason I mention this is because, Sonic games are arcade-like since their conception. A franchise that benefited immensely from this style system is Devil May Cry, especially 3 and 4. Devil May Cry is a franchise that has a combat with a lot of depth to it. But by offering the players incentives to get good at the game and rewarding them accordingly is quite frankly genius. Without that style system, Devil May Cry would've been the franchise that it is now. (until the DmC reboot came along and left a mark...)
Oh, hey man, glad you liked the video.
Personally what I'd like in short is just one play style that is designed to be versatile, one that allows gameplay to be both fast and frantic and something more methodical and explorative at ones own pace.
But I'll save what I mean by that for future videos.
Em. Bani. honestly I would actually prefer sonic adventure 3 to sonic forces if they made it instead of this sonic forces deviantart garbage
premydaremy boost feel like auto pilot
Gosh, it's such a pain how sonic fans try to make you pick a side. I like both. Whether it be classic adventure games, boost gameplay, something in the middle, I find them all fun. Can't we all just get along...
Anyway. Fantastic analysis. Super well done, and illuminated things I hadn't thought of prior.
me too. but that's what happens when people are WAY too attached to a certain playstyle. while Super Mario Odyssey is universally praised, I can guarantee you that there will be this oddball who liked the more linear 3D mario games. people are just that stubborn about any changes.
Caffeine Rush I definitely agree! I've always loved the extended cast. I think Sega tried to move away from them post-06 simply because that was such a disaster they kinda canned all the ideas there. And I do admit fan sentiment back then seemed to be "I just wanna play as sonic". But we've had that for game after game now. I think we're all ready for a change tbh.
All Stars Racing was a pretty cool step in that direction, but it really only had the core set of characters, none of the extended cast.
Trust me tho. As someone that's partial to Silver the Hate sponge, I understand
Caffeine Rush I agree! I also think there isn't any harm in the classic mentality of being able to play the sonic levels as characters that are just like sonic but maybe have different movesets. Blaze for example doesn't get used but she easily could
I like both too. If sonic team relies on something similar to those to games and make it better im gonna be interested. Sonic team should try to mix the two together and i think that it would work very well
Ansley Holmes welcome to marvel and DC
I cant watch 20m of my favourite shows on netflix without splitting my focus to my cellphone or other things. Yet sitting through one hour of this went by with my full focus the entire time. Being so captivated by a movie or series, let alone a video, is an extremely rare thing for me. Thank you for making such a masterpiece. Truly a joy to watch and listen.
Something I’ve found that both have in common is that both gameplay styles got their fair share of hate soon after their releases. Adventure 1 was hated from the start for the radically different redesigns, SA2 was controversial as some people loved the first game and others hated it. Heroes was seen as a mediocre platformer that felt devoid of what made the series great to begin with, and 06 nearly killed the series because of too many factors that made it the worst Sonic game ever made. Fast forward to now, and Sonic Colors, the game that brought new life to the series and was seen as a near universal return to form for Sonic, is now seen as, again, a mediocre platformer that felt devoid of what made the series great to begin with. Sonic Generations was, again seen as one of the best Sonic games at the time, but now seen as a just okay pander-fest that brought back Classic Sonic, and despite only being in two games, is now seen as the root of the problem. Even Sonic Mania, the game that proved that 2D Sonic can still feel fresh and innovative, is, like Generations, looked down for only appearing to the die-hard fans that have been around since the beginning and gave Modern Sonic fans more reasons to hate the character. Now the era that is seen as the true masterpieces is the late 2000’s. The ones getting praise now are Black Knight, Secret Rings, Rush Adventure, Unleashed, and the much maligned 06 is now seen as “it was actually always good”.
Basically, I’m saying that what goes around comes around and that every new Sonic game has the possibility of sparking another civil war in the community.
"I will not say which style I prefer because that's not really the point"
*THANK YOU*
We all know the classics are the best , that is why.
After seen the videa is clear that he has a better liking for the boost gameplay.
mauricio gonzalez gordillo thats not what I got from it. He tore the 2D sections apart when he was supposed to be impartial
*proceeds to show obvious bias towards boost*
@THE DRAGON KNIGHT SLAYER64 So if a game has bad frame rates , bugs , game crashes and poor controls is a "subjective" matter then I suppose to you the Space Shuttle Challenger was a triumph and the Hindenburg . I don't mind the Adventure or Advance games they are pretty decent but they are no way near as tight as the classic MD trilogy . Why do you think Sonic Mania has done so well , it has nothing to do with nostalgia , it's simply a matter of technical achievement , simply put the game fucking works . Games like Sonic 06 and Shadow are simply awful . Awful in story , awful in technical function it is not a subjective matter it is a fact . Sonic and Star Wars are very similar in terms of how people view them Sonic Classic and SW Classics are just that classics , Adventure and Advance as well as the Star Wars prequels are pretty decent honestly , the new 3d Sonics and Disney Star Wars have no soul plain and simple .
*phone at 5 percent*
*Video is **1:00:00** long....*
U can do it phone
khilone123 Gaming Wtf my phone is at 5% right now :P
Lol
khilone123 Gaming lol been there
5% too!
Did it work? I mean, it could be possible if the video is 2.0 speed, and use 1% phone brightness.
34:50 That part came completely out of left field and I love it. :)
Marius Urucu We all do lol.
Correction: the boost mechanic was first introduced in sonic rush.
Counter correction: The boost as a concept was introduced in Sonic Advance 2 as the boost state, later refined in Sonic Rush where you can activate it on a dime.
@@dubemudeze8156 If I remember correctly, I think the Boost actually came from Sonic Heroes, where you're playing in the special stages to catch up to the Chaos Emerald
@@idontwantsa3884 Sonic Advance 2 came out roughly a year before Heroes, so it introduced it first
@@dubemudeze8156 I just checked and you're right. I always thought Heroes came out before Sonic Advance 2
@@jjayrichardsfilms counter counter correction............I guess if everything falls down to advertisements then I guess your right.
Thank you for highlighting the music as important furtherance of the story in a Sonic game. It really, at its best, is often the optimum descriptive tool as to Sonic's mood and the overall atmosphere of the sphere of which he now inhabits. I take the beginning of Scrap Brain Zone as the most poignant example I can think of. The music will forever stick in my head as the little woodland creature finds himself in a clanking industrial nightmare. A mechanized blight on his beloved home, belching fire from smokestacks against a lifeless smog- saturated sky. The song is in A minor, desperately sad, and at first, it sounds like the very song itself is crying for the paradise lost. It almost can't bring itself to acknowledge the calamity Robotnik has let metastasize across the simple, verdant utopia. Yet the chorus switches to C major, which, coupled with the melody, really starts to hammer home such a powerful sense of Sonic's valiance and determination to see this through to the bitter end. Solidifying his role in this zone as his planet's last chance for salvation as he hurtles into the automated heart of darkness. His purity versus evil and greed. Nature versus artificiality. It's all there in force with great pathos.
"I didn't treat Sonic as a game, but a film" - Masato Nakamura
I really feel that a lot of the music exists without a distinct purpose nowadays and sacrifices emotivity and richness for threadbare utterances of a stage's identity. Like a kind of beige aural wrapping paper.
I don't think I've ever watched a single video about Sonic (or any other subject tbh) where I've literally just exclaimed: "This guy fucking gets it!"
For real though, there's been a lot of talk about Sonic again recently (because of Forces) and it's really made me want to just make my own video because of that. After seeing this video, it really feels like you've expressed everything I've felt about Sonic games (minus a few personal comments) and how they could easily make a better game by improving what they have rather than going with left or right and scrapping up and down. No joke this is one of my favourite Sonic discussion videos.
I just want Chao Gardens back :\
Nobody1473 it is.
This is gonna make me cry
the chao garden was my favorite part of the adventure games. its the only explanation for my 400+ hours on sonic adventure 2.
@Nobody1473 it is lol
God, I loved the Chao Garden.
To all the people in the comments asking about the music, all the songs are credited in the video when they start playing at the bottom left corner of the screen.
Em. Bani. how tf do you only have 700 subs
ElvisG25 ikr
Em. Bani. MF DOOM- -Rhymes Like Dimes- Monosodium Glutamate is the cherry on top of this video.
Em. Bani. Fuck yeah dude I love MF DOOM
Em. Bani. 42:46 in all honesty I'd play it
I think sonic 06 had the right idea, a game where there is platforming, with also a type of boost section, and many unique characters to play with. If they took that formula and made a new game, it could be SUPER good for both types of fans. This video is the best video i've ever seen talk about these elements, because he doesn't side with only one. He remains impartial and its good!
54:26-56:12 This makes me appreciate Windy Valley in a way I've never thought about before! I also ADORE how as you started out describing the first portion of the stage, it dawned on me what the music was supposed to convey in the second and third portions in a way I also hadn't considered before, that felt really awesome!
Best idea ever!
In slower paced sections sonic would be in adventure mode without boosting, drifting and the other stuff.
Then when sonic gets to the fast paced sections he would be in boost mode with boost and the other stuff.
Like the Mach Speed sections in 06, but easier to control.
That's the worse idea I've ever seen, thank God I ain't you.
Adventure games were the fast paced sections aren't automated by dash panels. I like this. Or better yet, depending on skills you start off slow paced but using tricks and maintaining speed allows you to enter boost mode in fast paced sections and when reach a slow section you use the amount energy you gathered from boost to destroy stronger enemies instantly.
@@docc_ Do you got a better idea?
These are some really good points. Your vids deserve more attention.
Thanks
Em. Bani. I think I can explain the middle ground of the Adventure and Boost. When Sonic isn't boosting he has something similar to the Adventure control (also when boosting, steering should feel more fluid). I also think they should get rid of scripting, not only dash pads but also scripted sequences through loops, it can't be that hard to control Sonic through loops and corkscrews, just add some barriers and your good to go. A momentum based physics engine can be implemented by making the boost give some of Sonic's speed but no all of it, to earn more speed you can get momentum by running down hills, keeping the speed going, going through loops etc. Couple this with open level design as if you put a Mania and or 3&K Stage on an angle and turned it into a 3D design, that creates the perfect 3D Sonic formula.
Mikester_Paltoes "It can't be that hard to control sonic through loops." Check out Sonic Utopia or just any 3D fangame or mod without scripting. It's awkward at best. Scripting is a necessary evil when it comes to loops and corkscrews. I agree that scripting should be downplayed significantly, there still needs to be SOME scripting to aide the player through certain more dramatic elements. Scripting should be there to hold their hand, not drag them along.
Automation in loops isn't bad. I never had a problem with it because I can't imagine how I could control my character going through those. Should circle my control stick? Should I hold forward? The purpose of showing sonic in a certain angle is to entertain you. I don't have to control sonic in a loop because it's not as impressive in third person.
I think he controls just fine in the loops in Sonic Utopia once you get good at the game
Let's be real we all want adventure 3 for the chao garden
You got Sonic Adventure 3 in 2006 :^)
Slazors did 06 have the chao garden? No it didnt its not the real adventure 3
Jared Lund that means I wouldn't want the boost gameplay
Slazors >when you miss the main point of the comment regarding the chao garden
Slazors good one? You're still a moron that didn't see the main point of the comment, you fuckin meat head
You almost perfectly described frontiers at the end lol
Not bad. If only these sorts of videos (including sonic spitball) were able to be translated into Japanese so developers over there could take note.
For me, the fangame Sonic Utopia feels like the freshest breakthrough into a 3D sonic that understands gamefeel. For Utopia, the character's controls absolutely came first. The gameplay gimmicks and level design tropes you discuss for most of the video are important, but how a character controls is the foundation a great video game, with the level design and mechanics later formed around those controls.
Boosting is awesome, but imo it would be cooler as a temporary power up like the speed shoes, so it 1: doesn't hog the gameplay and cheapen the sense of speed & 2: encourages exploration of the levels like you mentioned
Green Hill Paradise Act 2 has a Boost-like move called "Mach State", which is triggered by reaching max speed rather than a simple button press, and could complement an Adventure-style gameplay. In a game with more than 1 playable character, it could be a move unique to Sonic/Shadow.
They could nerf the boost, and have the spindash, but you have to charge both of them
Sonic Utopia is the bestest, I even had a video planned for it when it came out!
Also henlo Ash :D
It'd be better if they went back to the elemental shields, but gave them a bit more abilities. For instance, imagine if the fire shield would let you boost around, but you have a limited gauge that can only be refilled by getting another fire shield.
I like both styles of the sonic games, I like the feeling of boost in the newer sonic games, but I also like using sonics spindash.
Halfway through and I must say that this video is among the very best I've watched on sonic since ever! Mainly your thought process on all of this, but the shift to and from the comedy/passion part about 2d sonic is significant to me as is your decent production value!
Why not have both Boost and Adventure formula in one game. The boost is only use to travel between zones. And adventure formula is for open world platform exploration. Best of both world.
You hit the nail on the head with this analysis man. I've always considered that Sonic Adventure 1 had the best all around control of Sonic, because it gave him the ability to actually explore a level, instead of the linearity that the boost levels brought to the table.
Sega really should've made Forces have the Adventure controls as the third gameplay style. With modern improvements I think it could've worked.
“FUCK THESE 2D SECTIONS!”
Best part 😭😭👏🏻👏🏻
This has just come up on my recommended. I wasn’t a sonic fan back in forces days. I never realised. I feel so bad for everyone who hyped up that game. Anyway time to watch the rest of the video
Fantastic video right here. Well layed out and great analysis on the Adventure and Boost gameplay's pros and cons. Definitely earned you a sub.
There's a fan game out there named Sonic Utopia that has tight comfortable controls and physics based gameplay like the Classics & SA1. It also allows Sonic to achieve a fantastic level of speed close to that of the Boost Games depending on how you use your abilities within the terrain. Sonic has a Homing Attack that does a much better job at keeping his momentum after attacking an enemy, a Spin Dash & Super Peel Out in 3D and has an ability similar to Mania's Drop Dash where you can make Sonic curl into a ball in mid-air to retain momentum when he lands. I think a gameplay style similar to that would scratch the itch both Adventure and Boost fans are looking for. It'd just need more focused level design.
And with that, maybe Sonic could also have a parkour mechanic similar to the stunts we see him do in Sonic CD and the OVA, which would be a much more visually interesting and fun way to show off his speed, power and agility than just barreling through enemies. And of course, with Sonic's friends being in a game like this, I'd like them to play under the same gameplay style as Sonic opposed to having some gimmick or different objective. It'd also need the sense of spectacle Sonic Adventure offered with it's action filled set pieces (But in a way that won't take control from the player).
Also, I agree with there being item boxes with Rings and Power Ups in the games. Especially after seeing the unique ways the Elemental Shields can be used in Sonic Mania.
Thanks, you sure do get around when it comes to Sonic videos.
Yeah, I'm well aware of Sonic Utopia, personally I kind of prefer Green Hill Paradise (Just going by what I've seen anyway, I haven't played either of them) but they both look to be fantastic proofs of concept for bringing Sonic's gameplay into 3D.
Em. Bani.
Indeed. You should give them both a try. They're both really pretty fun, though in terms of the raw gameplay, I prefer Utopia.
Em. Bani. Also the Mach State is very similar to the Boost , but it's earned by your mommentum and speed .
Tio Sonic Moderno#LeviCafé.
Eh, not really. I mean it's even more automated than the boost as Sonic's literally pushed forward with your only element of control being the ability to turn either left or right.
Monkey D. "Straw Hat" Luffy There is also a fan game that fixes some of the problems that the adventure problems have with high speed controls by using mechanics from Generations like the drift and stomp.
Its called Sonic World. (Not lost world).
My biggest gripe with the controls in the "boost" games is that Sonic feels so ridiculously heavy. It's like he's fast but it feels like he weighs 300lbs when he's jumping and turning.
*Chilli dogs*
@@brolookatthatthingbehindyo1324 no, bad game design. =}
@@BiriBiri925 no, a joke. :)
@@BiriBiri925 goofy ahh…
That’s sonic generations
Good job man, I sat here and watched the entire video. I was trying to explain something similar to this in regards to Sonic Forces in my video. Most people seen it as complaining but Sonic really needs to step its game up. Every next Generation Mario game improves and sets the bar for gaming in general but here we are with Sonic Forces and its the first new 3D sonic game to hit these current consoles and yet we get a bit of the same from last gen. I had to subscribe to ya and maybe we can collab video sometime.
3:49 “story is a element in sonic and I think it’s a subject deserving of it’s own video” I want to see a video like that in the future when ever your ready.
I personally prefer adventures momentum based mechanics over boost mechanics and I always will.
The reward you get for chaining attacks and finding new pathways by propelling yourself forward with rings, enemies and rails is an unreal feeling that rewards replaying of stages and makes you feel like you're in control.
It wasn't always implemented the best way especially in SA1, but it really felt as though they were reaching the maximum potential for the dreamcast in SA2, something that mightve been perfected given more care in sonic 06. (Project 06 is good proof of that)
I feel when you implement a boost function you're taking away the draw of the game. Going fast is no longer rewarded to you for being diligent and replaying the level to find hidden pathways but rather the games reward you *the less you think*.
I understand why they do the *boost* stages, mostly because they dont have to put as much effort into rail, ring and enemy placement. And sometimes it does a good job at making you feel fast, but a majority of the time its hard not to feel like you're just pushing the stick forward with timed "qte"s.
What i want to see is a adventure return. But not like how it was. Firstly i believe that sega should make a game with one universal play set. All characters can jump and homing attack. The jump must feel more like sa1 to encourage exploration and combos with a spin dash, bounce, slide and quick step.
I feel that lost world got one thing right. The weight. Take away the bad jump from that game and you have a fluid system, sonic should have a similar weight to that game in terms of moving while running.
Now here is where things get interesting. I think sega should re introduce multiple characters that all share this gameplay style but with different moves when jumping twice. Sonic can do a drop dash) tails can fly, knuckles can glide and Amy can do a high jump by holding the jump button while descending (similar to the drop dash in terms of execution). I believe if sega keeps to this one style and expands upon it with bigger terrain with set pieces to increase speed, multiple paths with loops, corkscrews, areas where the characters can use their abilities, i believe we may have something special
Yeah, multiple characters and one consistent play style is the big thing, whatever style they end up sticking with those things I think should be paramount.
I'll openly admit I haven't played Lost World so I can't vouch for what you're saying there.
Em. Bani. Its fine but ill say that the spin dash from lost world feels easier to move from side to side that a boosting sonic
Daniel von Strangle Yeah, i feel that having one universal play style is the only way we can get multiple characters besides sonic in
Masterclass 17 I don't know about Lost World's weight. Gregzilla makes a really good point on Sonic's controls there in his Kinda Reviews video. There is that Generations mod that tries to blend Adventure and Generations together. Maybe that can work?
Jared Burk True. Sadly the boost is almost worthless in that mod. However I agree with gregzilla, however it is better that modern sonic normal control
The reason for those scripted level moments where you're going through a loop and it looks super cool and shit I feel is, because, well, it LOOKS cool and makes you feel really awesome. Style is a very prominent element in Sonic games, even since the first Sonic games. I feel like it's so iconic that just completely ridding of them just wouldn't feel much like...well, like Sonic. In moderation it really isn't ruining, and to be honest I felt that Adventure 2 had just enough that it wasn't excessive or anything. I personally love the more cinematic moments like that but maybe that's just me.
I do like your point though about how boost games do that a little better. You have more control of what happens, therefore you are basically the determining factor as to if you can pull off a really stylish move. Being able to pull those bits off feels a lot more rewarding and I can definitely get behind the notion of replacing most automated parts with a mostly-automated-but-still-heavily-reliant-on-player-input type of element.
As you can tell, I haven't played the boost games all that much. Maybe I should, though.
i think what they meant by "boost to win" is by how it replaces the forward button,makes some abilities inconsistent like for attacking enemies, achieving top speed with a press of a button and it never runs out as you mentioned earlier
Unleashed and Generations maybe, but Colors and Forces, you have to have wisps.
TakeshiInazuma ahem, luminous forest. That level has wisps everywhere
RalphJeremy 65 he posted that comment before forces came out
Burtłomiej i know.
RalphJeremy 65 so why did you act like he didnt
"There are no mechanics to work to benefit of his control." Have you seen A Rank Players and speed runners?
On the whole 2d discussion, I think unleashed and generations used these sections pretty well. Firstly they're short lived and they're a nice change of pace and bring in new obstacles that would be a pain to avoid in 3d. And secondly, I think unleashed definitely had the right idea that it often changed the camera angles which (as stupid as it sounds) gave the 2d sections a lot of personality
Your point about the usage of spectacle in Adventure games vs. in Boost games reminds me of a complaint that the Sonic Dissected guys brought up a bunch. Both dovetail pretty nicely. You make the argument that levels in boost gameplay just feel like artificial backdrops for Sonic to do stunts across, so there's little catharsis or sense accomplishment from conquering a hostile terrain. Sonic Dissected makes the argument that Pontac & Graff's writing (Sonic Colors and the games that followed) does just as much to undermine the drama. In the cutscenes, Sonic is constantly cocky and cracking jokes, never doubtful or worried. There's little catharsis or sense of accomplishment for beating Eggman, because these games' story rarely let him be more than a joke.
I feel like 06 felt just right but was hindered by it's glitches. That's just my opinion though.
Yeah, this is amazing. You accurately captured most of the feelings fans of the series have compounded together over 30 years and presented it in a well edited and engaging segment.
Haven't finished the video, but my personal idea for the perfect 3D Sonic gameplay would be the general controls of the Adventure games, but when you reach max-speed, then and ONLY then can you boost, and you can keep boosting until you hit something that makes you lose your momentum. Then you have 3 separate jumps, a normal jump, a double-jump, and finally the midair boost.
General controls would be a more refined version of the Adventure games.
Left-stick:Movement
Right-stick:Camera
A/X:Jump/Double-Jump/Foreward-Boost/Homing-Attack(if locked onto something)
B/O:Slide(on ground)/Slam(in the air)/Bounce(if you have the bubble-shield)
X/Square:Boost(if at max-speed)
Y/Triangle:Light-Speed-Dash
LB/L1:Quick-step left
RB/R1:Quick-step right
LT/L2:Turn into Super-Sonic(when you have all Chaos-Emeralds)
RT/R2:Spin-dash(hold and release)/Drop-dash(hold in midair)/Roll(Tap with momentum or on a hill)/Drift(when boosting)
To me, if they implemented this and designed the game around this move-set, it would be the ultimate Sonic-game.
Emi. Bani: Sonic looks so badass after his victory of being sucked into a tornado
!
Me: I'd like to mention that Tails was there too.
The hard truth about the 2D segments and having Classic Sonic or the Werehog is that the Boost levels cost too much money to make an entire game out of them without getting criticized for the game being too short. They're also attempt to fix the lack of exploration in boost sections.
I found this video to be more inspirational than i thought it would be. breaking down the good and bad points of the Sonic games and explaining them in a way I haven't heard anyone else put it. there are things I would like to see now that SEGA/ Sonic Team might never see, but one can dream. A Game that perfectly caters to speed, exploration and control while giving the exciting set pieces and staying true to Sonic's character does seem hard to pull off. I think Sonic Lost World would have been better if the designs of the environment weren't mostly based on cylinders and spheres, but i did find them interesting. And the way he moves in Lost World could also be a basis of how he could move in a regular environment.
And then Forces took everything the Boost formula did right, and murdered it.
@@epsilonalphaargo1948 A fair amount considering it’s mediocre and not garbage.
@@digimonlover1632 Sorry.
Adventure Formula + Boost Formula + Open Zone = Frontiers Formula
You know, the combination of both boost and adventure that you described, and taking the best of both worlds, ironically sounds like Sonic 06
-Sonic is powerful, but not invunerable
-different control styles for high speed sections and slower sections
-Somewhat open ended level design with exploration
-Spectable moments with a sense of pathos (think the fire tornado in Crisis City)
Weird how that works huh
This is a very smart way of design. I would personally love to see this, great thinking!
Sonic 06 WAS supposed to be Sonic Adventure 3 but the extremely lack of polish and rushed development ruined the final product which was an awful broken unplayable mess.
@@ahmirwatson9531 Sonic unleashed WAS also suppose to be sa3
I was also thinking of 06 when he listed the pros of both styles!
The game just got rushed & the dev team was loosing major staff members like Yuji Naka and along with him went away a big chunk of the staff
Just look up info about the game`s development cycle to find out what kind of bullsh!t the team had to go through to even make the game a barely playable one
06 was definitely gonna be the game that would set up the base for what Sonic will be in terms of at least gameplay (IDK about story but maybe they would've continued with the serious tones minus the disgusting human x cartoony humanoid animal romance)
I think it would've been great!
@@ahmirwatson9531
I know this comment is from last year:
I respectfully disagree, I see Sonic.T.H.2006 as a reimagine of Sonic Adventure, mixing other formula’s after the game such as 2, Heroes and even Shadow (kind of) into it, making an annaversary (misspelling) of the Sonic series.
Lastly, funnily enough, the gameplay style you described for 3D sonic at the end that uses the best qualities of both is basically Sonic's gameplay in 06, lmao.I guess with the much deserved backlash of the game, Sonic Team abandoned all the Adventure aspects leaving just the Mach speed sections, and that's how we have the boost gameplay.
Sonic 06 could of been a good game.
Sonic 06 just failed in every regard besides making a frame.
99 Subs? Let me change that.
Wow you only have less than 200 subscribers..? with THIS content and the undeniable hard work you put into it..? Talk about unjustified ..
11:37 I havent played sa1, but in sa2 you can use the control stick to aim your homing attacks. It helps a LOT with ensuring you hit the correct target.
I agree, but I still think they should've added a reticule...
That was fantastic...! I actually finally managed to make it through all this!
I'd love to see a Sonic game in that "fusion" style you were talking about, though I think there's definitely several elements of note that are worth mentioning.
> Allow for more momentum-based physics stuff even beyond the wall-running and bounce bracelet, much like the Genesis games with a higher skill ceiling.
> Expand on Lost World's parkour.
> Allow for a full-on Doom-like maze-style level or two. (What if Labyrinth Zone was an actual labyrinth?)
> Bosses probably shouldn't just be this thing floating there that you're chasing as it moves backwards for some reason. (The Shadow fight in Sonic Generations was a nice alternative.) However, nor should the bosses be just standing in once place, either. Battles should have both parties moving around, not just forward... AROUND all the time, as both are constantly gaining the upper hand on the other, back and forth, in a constant, switching game of Cat & Mouse. Bosses in games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog had... sort of the right idea. They were definitely on the right track.
> Combine the grinding mechanics. Definitely allow for the balance physics that were found in Sonic Adventure 2, where even grinding on a single rail all by itself could be engaging, but also allow for the transitional smoothness that came along in Sonic Unleashed, where Sonic's movement jumping from one rail to the next is reliable and predictable, no matter what shape that section of the rail is in when he jumps, or how the camera is positioned.
> The boost in and of itself is not necessarily a problem, but rather how the level design and enemy design are built around it. How many enemies are effectively static rocks in the boost games? Where did the enemy variety go? It's seriously HUGE in Sonic Adventure. There need to be more enemies that can't be taken out by simply boosting into them, nor causing you to suddenly take damage just because you couldn't react in time. (Those inflating gelatin bunny things from Sonic Adventure's Twinkle Park come to mind, as do the orange monkey robots that throw bombs in several levels, as they're often perched somewhere higher up off the ground.) Different enemies should alter how you tackle any given situation or environment. Like... just play Doom II and pay attention to how massively your approach to the gameplay changes when an Arch Vile shows up, resurrecting enemies you've already killed, and launching massively-powerful homing pillars of hellfire at you, while still being very engaging to fight. Do more than just "Enemy that stands there", "Enemy that floats there", "enemy that charges up and shoots a single slow-moving laser bullet one at a time", and "enemy that electrifies itself for a couple seconds or so at a time".
> Any power-ups ought to enhance Sonic's abilities and compliment the core gameplay (see elemental shields, invincibility and speed-up AKA "Power Sneakers"), rather than Mario-like power-ups that change the playstyle almost entirely, and practically turn their use into a minigame (see every whisp but the white boost ones, I guess).
The worst thing is that there was a sonic game that combined the adventure formula with the boost formula ... Sonic 06. But because of Sega stupidity it's the most hated game in the franchise. Now Sega will never make a game like it again which sucks.
Sonic Badass how exactly did Sonic 06 mix the boost and adventure formulas? The worst of both maybe.
RemixerUltimate Adventure: Exploration, an open world, most characters being playable, different gameplay styles.
Boost: emphasis on speed, homing attack.
Like I said it had the potential to be a good game but the lack of polish killed it.
Sonic Badass all of that was in sonic adventure tho. The only character that's actually playble in boost sonic is your created character.
And if we're talking emphesis on speed those were mostly in scripted sections....also like the adventure games
The Animated Gamer fair enough but taking some of the games elements wouldn't hurt.
The Animated Gamer in adventure, you don't have the speed like in unleashed/générations.
What I want is Adventure style just with some of the glitchyness fixed. Then it would be perfect. But I think everyone can aggree that the main thing that needs work in sonic games now is the story/writing
Same. A new Adventure style game would be great, but a poor story would drag it down and I could enjoy a Boost game a lot more with a decent story to pick it up.
Adventure barely has glitches though, the only stages where glitches are apparent are Emerald Coast, and Speed Highway
Concept: A game with adventure style controls, except after some levels Sonic goes “Darn, we’re not gonna make it! Let’s speed up!” and then switch to a boost style level. There, I saved the fandom.
Yes, this.
Or, a fork in the road on whether or not to keep the adventure style controls or to change to boost style gameplay
How bout the classic fans lol
@@Rishi.149 you can go under/over the fork and continue the game with classic gameplay, and new levels in full 2D
@@Rishi.149 the video was about modern sonic, so my comment was about modern sonic. And frankly, after forces I think no one wants classic sonic back in a modern game. I'd much rather they kept making separate classic style games like Mania.
To quote tony stark: “is it too much to ask for both?”
Imagine a Generations game, but instead of just classic Sonic, it has dreamcast Sonic, modern Sonic, AND classic Sonic. They should wait maybe a decade or so since Forces and Mania both had him, but imagine if they made a sequel that had all three of them, plus potentially post-modern sonic, and had all of them playable.
Better yet, imagine making a character that is basically Sonic but in the adventure style. Then it'd make sense to keep him.
@@vertnation4902 I like the idea of a game with modern Sonic, classic Sonic, Dreamcast Sonic, and Boom Sonic. I think it would be very interesting.
Fun fact: dreamcast sonic was going to be in generations but it got cut out sadly due to ryan drummond not voice him for generations
Yeah
I want to be a sonic fan again, but SEGA won’t let me.
That sucks bro...
Feel ya....
I just watched this video late at night and I by no means regret it. You nailed everything about the Adventure and Boost formats and in a way that felt you gave each it's pros and cons. I don't usually say this, but I feel you were so even handed in your treatment of both styles that I have a hard time guessing which is your favorite. Well done. Absolutely fantastic job.
Additionally, I appreciate your take at the end about how even when a game fails so-to-speak Sega shouldn't scrap everything. One of the most evident cases of Sega doing this is from Generations to Lost World. While Generations isn't my most favorite Sonic game, the fanbase reaction was extremely positive. But what did Sega do? They listened primarily to the critics of that game and moved in a very different direction for better or worse to Lost World. Whether one loves Generations, Lost World, both, or neither, it's hard to see why Sega took such a drastic turn after a commercially successful game. From a capitalistic perspective, Sega should have stayed to what was popular. Sega's desire to quickly move to another idea after the last had some blemishes, no matter how minor, is truly odd. I personally love their experimental side, particularly when it comes to level themes, but I do feel as you said that they should try more to constructively move forward.
A very good looking and well-constructed analysis of the two gameplay styles. It confirms to me that milky British accents make the best video game essays. Definitely subscribed, keep up the great work.
Thanks
The thing that I have always disliked about the boost games is that Sonic controls with the weight of a car. He's not 2,000 pounds. I shouldn't need a drift button to make turns. The Adventure games got his controls right. He may not have been as fast back then, but even the old Sonic games were about momentum and maintaining speed, not the overall speed.
Boost Sonic is stiff but hes not That bad lmao. But yeah I get it I guess they had to make sonic heavier to stop you from air boost flying around the stage but I wish we had the floaty and loose controls from SA1 back
He kind of is though. He sinks like a rock in water.
When you’re travelling so fast you may as well carry that amount of force. That’s why he has to drift to do tighter corners, because that’s not how it works. You can’t just zip around a corner when you’re carrying so much momentum.
interesting..
Saw the whole thing and its amazing. You go over nearly everything with great detail and instead of just saying ones better than the other, you explained the pros and cons of each formula 👍 😁
The critique of the Boost Formula explains my own thoughts PERFECTLY. I am an Adventure Supporter overall but I still loved the Boost games, but I also feel that his general movement in them is pretty bad. I miss the tight turning of the Adventure games I miss the physics based movement that Sonic was designed around in his concept. I think that Adventure could take the best parts of Boost games to make something truly incredible.
Make the bounce attack either its own button, or keep it as Sonic's sole action that uses the "spindash button but in the air"
Make rails still physics based, but have rail switching be via a button or at least scripted better I do think that being able to launch yourself-- as I've seen in many speedruns could be good to focus on. Have it be where you switch between rails via the shoulder buttons but you can lean to the left or right to launch off to other terrain or do some neat inertia based trick, or just hit the jump button without leaning in any direction to perhaps drop down to a lower area or if need be slow down and stop your overall inertia on the rail to better access an alternate path.
To give an example in SA2 there is glitch/exploitation of the game's physics where if you spindash off the edges of loops you wil retain your momentum in the direction you fall and in the level Green Forest Sonic can then continue to run up a wall where normally he'd use springs to bounce up the area the wall is apart of. I think something like that would make for interesting design if intentionally done with Sonic's momentum.
Based on the quality of this video, I expected you to have AT LEAST 100K subscribers. It's sad that so much work was put into this and you haven't really gotten the full attention you deserve (at least in opinion).
I actually found this funny and entertaining about halfway through then you lost it at the 2D section and I started laughing.
53:28-54:25 I LOVE how beautifully this was put! And it absolutely defines Knight of the Wind! 😍
The Speed is less interaction than the Adventure games, it just prioritizes timing and level memorization over mastery of the games physics.
I love both styles of gameplay, the boost formula is incredibly fast paced and epic and relies on fast paced reactions and it feels incredibly satisfying to perfect a level and get a perfect run, and on the other hand the Adventure style (especially Adventure 1) has really good 3D movement controls and works great for open platforming and it also feels really nice, but it struggles with straight lines and high speed sections, when the boost formula has the opposite problem. Both formulas are great in my eyes, and they both are fun in different ways, but I think both capture the magic of being a speedy blue hedgehog running through stages.
I’m one of those people who thinks we want a combination of the two styles. In Adventure games, fast speed sections are never ideal, but the 3D platforming is great, and the boost gameplay is great for high speed sections and 2D platforming but it always feels clunky and weird in 3D areas, two great examples are Windy Valley and Windmill Isle, in Windy Valley you have open 3D areas with good platforming but then you go down a huge ramp at full speed and you immediately slam into a wall and spend the entire section bouncing from wall to wall struggling to run in a straight line, and in Windmill Isle you spend most of the level zooming around at full speed in 3D corridors and doing 2D platforming until you land in one of the more open 3D areas and you struggle to run around them, Sonic wants to go fast all the time and accelerate too fast, and it takes a mile to turn around. It’s far from ideal, but at least the boost gameplay knows this and typically avoids these open 3D areas when it can.
This means that neither style is ideal, the Adventure games kept the high speed sections but didn’t make them work that well, and the boost formula simply lacks 3D open platforming for the most part and the areas it does have it are kept small to avoid the issues, but this does make the boost formula seem smaller and more narrow. So, my idea, combine the two! Change Sonic’s controls so at low-medium speed he controls like Adventure, but as you go faster it morphs more into an improved version of the boost controls, so the turning feels more reasonable and you can navigate better at high speed. I think my ideal Sonic gameplay would have the stages split into sections, Adventure style wide 3D open areas with slower platforming, higher but not boost level speed areas, and exploration, with high speed boost corridors between them, plus a good mix of boost 2D platforming and fast paced 3D reaction platforming on the high speed sections.
Another idea I had could be keeping them in the same game, but separated. For example, an Unleashed like setup where you have day stages that work like the boost games, focusing only on the aspects Boost is good at, and night stages that play more like Adventure and focus more on the platforming than trying to go hugely fast. They should keep speed in the game, ideally in wide paths so you won’t slam into walls, but not make it go as fast as boost gameplay so things stay controllable. I think this could be a great solution, because the boost gameplay is just too fast for Sonic Team to make a game of good length with just day stages, if you did that you end up with something like the Unleashed Project mod for Generations, or indeed Generations itself, where you can beat them in a couple of hours.
Unleashed had the Werehog night stages to try and resolve this issue by increasing gameplay time, but the best parts of that were the platforming if you ask me, and people didn’t like the combat, so I think we should make the night stages larger 3D areas with faster than the Werehog but much more controllable than boost style platforming, with adventure style controls that have some high speed improvement. This means they can reuse the level themes of the day stages but with new lighting like Unleashed, giving you more variety in terms of time of day, and allowing Sonic Team to get more gameplay time out of each level since they would take longer to beat than Boost stages, and would increase variety as you get two gameplay styles that are built around different styles of Sonic, rather than having a Sonic like gameplay combined with a Beat Em Up, or combined with Emerald Hunting and Mechs, and so on.
I just want boost gameplay with no 2d sections and an occasional break where we have to switch to adventure style gameplay. I think the city escape level in generations is a good example of mixing the two. It fit the boost but you could also do it entirely without it
7:58 This kinda reminds me of the way Witcher 3 handled its movement. Particularly if you use the movement system from when the game launched, Geralt would have a wider turn radius when sprinting.
(Oh my god, did I really just compare the Witcher series with Sonic?)
If Sega ever choose to try the adventure formula in a new game, I quite like the idea of the things they could fix. Bugs like the wall magnetism from SA1 are what cause the games to show they're age. If they ironed those out while delivering a good sense of momentum (momentum is not the same as raw speed), we could have a really great Sonic game on our hands.
This video is excellent , it reminds me of a video called "How Ratchet lost it's edge" .
The part about windy valley and the tornado, I find beauty in how you described it.
I'm late but amazing work.
Great video, although I find it strange how you never once address the way Sonic Colors completely changes the way the boost is used, how the game makes it a lot more scarce, thereby resulting in the player having to put more thought in how they use it. I was genuinely curious to hear what you had to say about that. Not to mention that they're doing something similar with Forces.
TheDragonDAFan So true lol
I very much disagree with MANY of your arguments, but this was a really solid video overall, nice work!
Uh...why don't you have more subs my man? Despite being REALLY long this video was great. Considering I watched all of it in one go without being bored you're doing something right. I hope your channel grows.
Thanks
You make a lot of great points, and in particular I hadn't thought of how important spectacle is for Sonic.
In my opinion the boost gameplay feels like you don't really have enough time to react to enemies, obstacles, and shortcuts unless you've already played the level to know what is coming before you see it.
So basically I agree with the second criticism you mention around 30:00, since the stages often don't feel fair to go through at high speed if you don't already know them.
I think boost mechanics would work better as some spectacle speed sections where you actually have control, and ideally can see far enough ahead to react to things the first time through a stage.
I've been sitting quietly and watching videos of Sonic for the past almost 3 years about what is wrong with him, Sonic Team, or whatever else people come up with. I have seen different arguments about the Adventure formula vs the Boost formula over and over again wondering what was a good way to fix something with it. People have said to combine both styles, but I've yet to see someone describe how. So I want to try to maybe put something together with those styles that Sonic already has.
First, what I thought of was Sonic's moveset that he could have for future installments. Use everything that he already has used in his games. I even somehow thought were to map them on a controller (I play on playstation so I'll use that as an example); have X as the jump and the homing attack, triangle could be for light speed dash. Circle could be used for the slide, bounce, spindash and stomp. The slide is for when Sonic is already on the ground, the spindash is when you hold the left stick down and hold or tap circle (or map it to square, this one is still up in the air for me), the bounce is when you jump and tap circle, the stomp is for when you jump and hold down circle. Used for different purposes. Then there's giving him the parkour from Lost World (I get there are people that hate it, but there can be ways to make it a bit more useful). You could easily transition from a regular wall jump to wall running. Now the boost? I'll get to that in a bit.
Next, the gameplay should be Adventure (I've only played Heroes and '06 with this style). Sonic should have better controls with his movement, turning, jumping and acceleration so he seems easier to control. Momentum based movement and platforming with speed being something you can earn a little like SA1 and the classics. There should be some exploration as well. The world can seem semi-open with some linear moments here and there and a multitude of pathways you can take to move faster, find secrets and items. Back to the boost! Think of them as the new way to replace the mach speed sections from '06 and Lost World (yeah LW had some of those). In these moments Sonic will gain a burst of speed and zoom through the level while using quick reflexes to dodge obstacles. They could be like 1 or 2 of these in just a regular level that Sonic can only boost through those certain moments. It's more of something Sonic can do to speed up that can be tied to the story where he's on a time limit or something. In these moments he'll control like how he does in Gens. These skills he has should be what stays with him as he grows (take or leave the parkour) and if the games have other power ups that Sonic uses then they should only add on to the gameplay instead of trying to change it or just feeling out of place. Sonic will have so much more mobility.
Will there be 2D sections? HELL NO! If we're gonna play a 3D Sonic game then let it be 3D! If Sonic Team really wanted 2D then just change the camera angle and let Sonic run around in a 3D axis.
Those were my ideas of how Sonic could possibly keep all his abilities and still use the Adventure formula with the Boost formula. These are just ideas, if I knew coding and such I'd try to put this into practice with a fan engine. But these may only stay ideas with me.
A 2 years late to this video, but honestly I like boost more than the adventure gameplay, mostly because of how cool and fucking fast it is, literally Sonic just collects some rings and then ‘holy shit! I AM SPEEEEEEED!!!’ It’s so fun, but there shouldn’t be 2D sections in boost games.
Sa2 had a boost in the multiplayer mode that was pretty satisfying and effective.
As someome who was a fan of Unleashed gameplay, personally I wouldn't mind if Sega and Sonic Team went back to try Adventure's gameplay but more tweaked.
Rewatching this. First I just jumped in like 10 minutes in when Em bani was dismissing SA2 mechanics like the somersault and the ring dash, and I was like "oh was he really that negative, did I really like this stuff?" However, now a couple weeks later I'm rewatching from the beginning and I'm 20 mins in, and he has a lot of positive and intelligent things to say!
Dang. I just watched a freaking hour long video. And it was totally worth it
Really good points, Underrated video.
“I won’t reveal which one I like more”
Spends the video defending boost formula lol
Great video though. Smart criticism I never thought of before. And the rant on 2D section was perfect XD couldn’t agree more. Great conclusion also. Really appreciate this video :)
Idk why we can’t have something like the boost, but press B to go into a ball and can ramp off hills and X does a spin dash that’s starts as fast as the boost but decelerates over time. Feel like that’s best of every version
I see the light speed dash and slide in the boost games rather as something almost like a QTE. You react fast, you get rewarded by either keeping your momentum or even reaching an alternate path.
This SONIC video FORCES me to subscribe. Lol for real though, this video is very great and I wish other Sonic fans would hear what you're saying.