Jonathan Pageau Interview | Monsters, Hidden Symbols, and Jordan Peterson in Church
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- On The Babylon Bee Interview Show, Kyle and Ethan talk to Jonathan Pageau about making Christian carvings, monsters, and the breakdown of identity in our culture. Jonathan carves Eastern Orthodox images and other traditional images. He has been appearing on many podcasts, including one on Jordan Peterson’s podcast. Jonathan has a knack for discovering the hidden meaning behind things. Kyle and Ethan delve in deep on why we need symbolism and how the Bee is making the world turn right side up again.
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Thanks so much for having me on. This was a lot of fun.
The man himself
This was so illuminating, thank you. Its like you brought the subconscious to the surface
Excellent guest! Loved hearing your perspective and thoughts. Also, I have to try not to over analyze during movies as well :)
Jonathan, have you ever thought about analyzing the show Manifest? It’s pretty remarkable in how it blends symbols with scripture and various religions across the world. I was reminded of it when you mentioned Gargoyles :)
Would it make sense to say that the protective monsters (a.k.a. the Garments) represent us becoming meek by gaining knowledge/power and then using it to protect and direct ourselves to Christ instead of the Devil? :)
Pageau is one of the only guys out there who has the guts to say the flood was to solve Nephilim problem
Wait don't all Christians agree to it?
@@bard5865 If all Christians agreed on everything, we wouldn't have hundreds of denominations.
You'd think it was obvious because they were another product of sin and were therefore grouped together with the rest of the sin that needed to be wiped out.
It’s not so much that there were physical offspring, but manifestations of moving away from God towards evil. Evil begets evil until it was too much, start over. Wash it clean with water.
@@blameese some argue that Neanderthal were actually the nephalim.
Jonathan Peageau converted me from Atheism to Orthodoxy.
Glory to Christ!
Welcome home.
I doubt he acted towards you personally.
@@manubishe Lol, what is your point? That Pageau doesn't care?
@@strugglingathome I'm pointing out that there is no personal act toward Virginius.
Honestly Jonathan Pageau's work is just that hidden knowledge that I feel I've been searching for my entire life. That implicit wisdom of which to divulge just brings to surface so many parallels, this man is one of the closest to true wisdom I have ever seen. A modern philosopher. Thank God for his work. Also, I don't think the boys at the Babylon Bee were ready for the bombs and insight Jonathan dropped lol.
True
This is too good to be true.
"The Garden of Eden was a mountain..." That makes the Tower of Babel make so much more sense!
That’s usually what happens. God is encountered at the top of mountains. Sinai, Tabor, or the fact that the altar (or front of the church that the congregation is oriented towards) is elevated.
I have learned so much about Traditional Symbolism, The East, and Reality itself from Jonathan. Great Interview bros!
Next get on Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, Rohlin, and other Orthodox people. We're horribly underrepresented on this podcast. So excited for this!
A chat with Fr. Stephen DeYoung would be the next step if we're talking about speechless responses. 😉
@@looqo7632 "... Yes."
@mpkunz6336 So when Saint Paul calls Onesimus "a son he'd begotten while in bondage" he's condemning himself?
Jesus when he says to the Jews: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day", He was blaspheming against Himself?
He should have kept the commandments, like the classic: "Honour thy *censored* and thy mother".
Don't be ridiculous.
Jay dyer
@mpkunz6336 We're not here to take part, we're here to take over. En Hoc Signo Vinces ☦
Where he tackles the crazy historico-critical method of approaching Scripture, so that we’re not even reading it any more, but dissecting the origins, is such a good point.
Why so short lol. Man I encourage all Christians and non Christians alike to listen to this. I’m not orthodox myself but find the church very beautiful and have historical roots. What Jonathan talks about here is very relevant with today’s climate and how it relates to stories of the Bible.
I'm a Baptist to Catholic convert thanks to Jonathon. He helped me see that I had a materialist and literal perception of Christianity that caused me to miss so much. One day I hope the Orthodox and Catholics are united again.
@C funny enough i have told people, even my brother, who are kind of luke warm Christians to check out orthodox churches. I think whatever helps a Christian or non Christians to take the faith more seriously is win for me. The Orthodox Church seems to do a good job at that.
This is a great primer to Pageau for the uninitiated.
Every time I hear a conversation between an Orthodox Christian and Protestants, I feel even more confident that the Orthodox Church has preserved the fullness of the Christian faith.
Dangggggggggg.... Even as a 1yr old Protestant converting from atheism, I can already get that sense too 😮
One thing I would add to Jonathan's discussion of images: pagan idolatry wasn't just about making the images, but it was actually about giving a god a body to indwell and to act in the world (fertility, good harvest, etc). Genesis 2:7-8 actually flips this process - God creates an image of Himself, places it in a garden, and breathes life into it.
For us Orthodox, we don't believe that God or the Saints dwell in the images, but they nevertheless become a tool to make holy people and/or events present to us in the moment.
Well didn't Christ, while quoting scripture, say: "I say you are Gods!"?
So every human IS an incarnation of a God, or of God, the Godhead. So every being whatsoever is God in disguise.
Thank you for this explanation because I think a lot of churches think that these images are actually being worshiped. So thank you 🙏
Wow
Two of my faves, the Bee and JP. Jonathan Pageau is always wonderful to listen to. He's so smart and interesting. Also, please have more Eastern Orthodox on!!
As a recent covert to Russian Orthodoxy I loved this. So many people lump us into Roman Catholic and it’s not the same. Thank you for this!
No, it's not the same, but you shouldn't feel ashamed if they lump you with us Roman Catholics. We have more in common, than you would with your typical Evangelical Protestant.
Also, as a Roman Catholic, I love icons and approve of Jonathan's ministry.
[Pageau holds forth about liminal symbolism]
The Bee: "The Eastern Orthodox Church has really good beards."
Tbf it resulted in one of my favourite Pageau quotes lmao
The Babylon Beard?
Loved that. So good to have someone so deeply into symbolism who has a whoopie cushion side too! It is a genuine compliment that he likes your work.
I subscribed within 20 seconds and liked this video within the first 2 minutes. And now I’m commenting. May the algorithm ever be in your favor. Thanks for making my night.
Longtime Babylon Bee reader. I actually found out about Babylon Bee from friends at my Orthodox Christian college over a decade ago. I'm so happy to see Jonathan interviewed on this and other channels--he is a clear speaker and always seems to have something interesting to say. Thank God for these speakers gifts and their ability to benefit others! Keep it up with the great speakers!
The people laughing in the background is the best part 🤣
Absolutely
So affirming (if I can use that word in a positive way) of things I’ve known or felt, thought as I grow in faith. Like growing weary of the non denominational church because I feel trapped in preschool, only offered milk. I’m sitting there thinking I’m ready to go to college, eat meat, play 17 dimensional chess. I’m over learning the alphabet and I need meat, tiddlywinks is no longer a challenge… Thanks for this. A true blessing and encouragement 👊🏼💯🙏🏼🙂
Check into the church fathers and their views on the sacraments and liturgy.
Pageau does a fantastic job showing Protestants some very deep truths embedded in Scripture that they constantly overlook and in effect simultaneously explaining just how much more Scriptural the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox worldviews/liturgies/churches are. Also fascinating how he draws a parallel between monstrosity and the modern obsession with identity deconstruction/re-construction, especially with regard to gender. Not the first person to point out the role of conservative comedy in a world gone crazy, but like that he goes back to the medieval archetype of the king's fool.
Which is why I consider myself Christian, but technically, I'm still Catholic. They have a level of depth & faith, I can't find anywhere else. (Not most Catholics, but the true faith is in pockets here & there. ) If it wasn't for corruption in the Church & this fake Pope, I would probably go more often, instead of to a non- denomination.
@@mariatorres9789 No corruption or bad pope/bishop is worth depriving oneself of Jesus Himself in the Eucharist. There is no Eucharist at a non-denom.
@@tonyl3762 True, and as I said, I still go on occasion, just not every Sunday. They're also pushing that Rockafeller globalist unity equality leftist ideology at mass, and I can't follow false doctrine. I do still listen to a handful of Bishops, Sisters, that align with original teachings. I've even attended an Assyrian Catholic mass once, now that was beautiful, hearing mass in the language Jesus spoke! I guess, I'll just await the kingdom, and some day with God's love & mercy, He'll take me home.
@@mariatorres9789 I can empathize with your feelings. I could never volunteer time, talent, or treasure to a parish pushing leftist ideology. However, I would not hesitate to receive Jesus in the Eucharist from such a parish every Sunday if it was the only practical option. Weekly mass is the bare minimum the Church requires of us. If we love Jesus and the Church, His Body and Bride, we should go every week, unless there is a legitimate unavoidable excuse (e.g. sickness, home-bound, or taking care of someone who is).
@@tonyl3762 I would love to go everyday, but, I'll not participate in globalist brainwashing. It's completely against everything the Bible teaches. I will not abide by false teaching. I'll just keep praying that the faithful are protected from harm. Be blessed. 🙏 And, bless the Lord, for keeping His promises & steadfast love, even when we fall short.
I loved this❤ you to guys coming together is amazing 👏. Both of your channels have given me laughs and hope over the last 18mths which was much needed!! I often check Babylon bee at work (I live in AU, am a protestant converting to Orthodoxy (thanks to Jonathan) humour and beauty is the only thing that has gotten me through!!!!)
Thanks for this🥲.
Welcome home
That margin as defender of the center is a powerful one, and you see it everywhere once you hear it.
That was so excellent! PLEASE have Jonathan as guest on a regular basis. You all jive really well.
I've been following Jonathan Pageau for years, and I still had to watch this video twice because it had some great insights
Loved this interview. I’ve listened to Jonathan many times but sometimes got lost. This time I really have a clearer picture. Babylon is great and will follow regularly.
Marvel: Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover event in history
Me:
6:19 Why images are OK
12:07 Symbolism
24:21 Monsters
Comment needs more likes.
41:13 (you missed "beards") 😜
43:41 Court Jesters (turning things upside down)
I'm watching a recent interview w/Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau and felt compelled to come here. Some might say even... pre-destined to come here.
Please have Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick on to discuss his new book "Arise O God: The Gospel of Christ's Defeat of Demons, Sin and Death".
Pageau's explanation of monsters was just so beautiful.
Talk about a cross over. Jonathan is great!
A crossover I never knew I wanted. Damn.
Appreciate guests whom have Judeo Christian based foundation to their lives from all walks of life and educational levels. Those whom do not are well represented everywhere else.
We’re all either Orthodox or on our way to Orthodoxy.
Pageau talks about hierarchy but doesn't go far enough. That's when you cross the Tiber.
@@tonyl3762 how do you mean? Crossing the Tiber means going Catholic, JP is Orthodox.
@@AugustasKunc When you take the Scriptural/Christian concept of hierarchy seriously (all Jesus' disciples/followers, the 12 apostles, the inner circle of Peter/James/John at Transfiguration and Gethsemane, and then Peter the Rock and the Davidic Steward with the keys to the Kingdom), then you become Catholic. Eastern Orthodoxy does not go far enough in terms of hierarchy.
@@tonyl3762 Roman Catholic ecclesiology destroys hierarchy. That all bishops are subject to the immediate jurisdiction of a pontif flattens the hierarchy completely.
@@strugglingathome Please elaborate on this for this of us who are basically unchurched.
The Babylon bee has great class throughout. Way to be.
Loved this!
Congrats on 666k subscribers! Epic Babylonian moment
Coffee is, interestingly, known now mostly by the double tailed mermaid.
This interview was phenomenal. I love Jonathan Pageau. I saved it to my "Orthodox" playlist; ironically. Thank you guys. Now come and see!
(We have coffee hour btw.)
Fascinating. This adds so much meat to a lot of my musings. So, I've always been a big fan of like, David Bowie and Alice Cooper. And I've always thought of their antics as being far removed from the Pride people of today. They were the "Circus," the kings fool, making us question norms, which art is *supposed* to do. The Left today are set on destroying institutions, identity, common values, in an attempt to take power. Rather than nurturing society through questioning, helping us see diverse viewpoints, etc., they are simply destroying. I even think of how they value diversity over unity. Fracturing us by dwelling on differences rather than commonalities.
Wow! Just wow! Thank you, guys! 💯👏🏻
Thankyou for answering questions I've had in mind.
Why isn’t this a nice surprise. Looks like I have something to watch while I twiddle my thumbs at work 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻😁
For 25 years I have been a evangelical baptist and in the last six or so thanks to Jordon Peterson who introduced me to Jonathan Pageau and others who peaked my interest, that the Christianity is a much, much bigger world than my little evangelical world of assumptions about ourselves and also it’s filters of anything outside of that so that I get a distorted image of of other peoples christian faith. Thanks to JP I learned to not get distorted impressions but actually listen to what other faith traditions have to say from the sources themselves. Not only Peageau but also Bishop Barren on Catholicism and know my faith journey is greatly enriched by people outside of my prejudices and bubble of one point of seeing things.
I don't believe Jonathan mentioned it, and I didn't see a reference yet in skimming the comments, so just to provide a little extra background on why Jesus is depicted in such a consistent way by Orthodox iconographers (especially considering that there is no physical description of Christ in the Scriptures or even any of the non-canonical 1st century writings): up through the mid-6th century, images of Jesus tend to portray him as a young Roman man with no beard and short hair, often carrying a lamb (symbolizing him as the Good Shepherd). But, after the discovery in 544 of the "Image Not Made By Hands," literally a miraculous depiction of the image of Christ on a cloth, sealed in the arch over the entrance to the city of Edessa (which confirmed the 1st century story of the Apostle Thaddeus taking to King Abgar of Edessa an image of Christ made on a cloth), copies of this Image were quickly painted and taken by Christian monks from St Catherine Monastery at Mount Sinai throughout the Christian world. Ever since then, all iconography depicts Jesus Christ in the same basic manner. Historian Ian Wilson advances this theory in connection with what we know today as the "Shroud of Turin" in his book, The Shroud - Fresh Light on the 2000-Year-Old Mystery. Worth your time looking into!
Man, that was really interesting! I should look into this
Would be a shame if someone were to steal the shroud and keep it locked away :/
Sometimes Jonathan seems to find it difficult to verbalise his knowledge so that the average Joe Soap can understand but after listening to many hours of his talks this is the most clear I've seen him express his vision. He is a truly remarkable individual. I only hope he continues his walk downwards to our Doors so we can let him in and be enlightened some more
Spreading the pollen of truth. Nothing like Jonathan coming on and explaining every joke you’ve made in depth to a point even the joke tellers didn’t understand. Hence, “I meant to do that”.
In our parishes, the priests still ask the catechumens to leave after the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but not chasing them. lol they are sent with a blessing.
WOW. Powerful. I never heard of this guy. I'll have to look him up.
Talking about monsters so much made me think of the Cenobites. Exploring the limits of pain and pleasure, each person born with a Lament Configuration in their pockets
Fascinating interview!
🤯 Wow, very interesting.
Pags! Yes!
“Monsters have layers, onions have layers…”
Pageau has a video on Shrek actually lol
Awesome interview.
Another interesting thinker to have on is Rod Dreher!
I'll enthusiastically second that recommendation.
Please, no. He's such a pretentious dork
Brilliant, thank you for the interview.
Bee: *jokingly mentions coffee bar*
Pageau: Hold my espresso...
Funny thing about calvinists is that every Calvinist with a dog knows their dog is a good boy even if he is not a perfect boy.
Excellent Jonathan and Bee Folk. The aim being lost and found again is very useful analogy
I’ve seen that church is boring to those who have only been born once. When one is born again, the messages from scripture become interesting, as the indwelling Spirit engages with Truth. So it’s no surprise to me that Jordan Peterson found church boring. But there is yet time for him…I continue to pray for his salvation.
When you said "coffee is a garment of skin" I never felt that more than when trying to stave off Depression/Sleepiness while playing Zomboid lmaooo
Did anyone else notice the incredible irony that the video opens selling a Calvanist T-Shirt while having an Orthodox come on for an interview?
Congrats on a great interview Jonathan! You're the next Peterson
Why would you say that like get outta town man get some air like are you okay? The next Peterson? Really? Where in Texas Italy did that come from?!
@@christianmandefro7475great comment!
Love Jonathan Pageau.
Bar bar bar bar bar.
they're not cynocephalous.
maybe they're monopods.
Do the Holy grail talk somewhere online when it is ready!
Great intro and an excellent interview with Jonathan Pageau (he really is super - duper smart)!
Excellent
Round 2, please!!!
Lady Gaga fans are called Little Monsters for a reason.
Man I'm 5 minutes into this video and I'm just laughed probably three times really hard 👍👉✝️✝️✝️
Epic
Their faces while he is speaking are funnier than the jokes.
Great show!!!😂😂😂
HAHAHAH THE FACES OF THE BB BOYS , JUST LIKE no words , great interview.
I am glad this man is gaining notariety!!
A wedding is kind of like the structure of Genesis. You start out in the holy place with holy ritual and end up at the reception with partying and dancing and silliness.
Yeah, I can see how Jordan Peterson and church really don't go together well.
I'd like to see him in a Bible study group with Dennis Prager, Paul Vander Klay, Jonathan Pageau, and Ben Shapiro, though.
I’ve seen that church is boring to those who have only been born once. When one is born again, the messages from scripture become interesting, as the indwelling Spirit engages with Truth. So it’s no surprise to me that Jordan Peterson found church boring. But there is yet time for him…I continue to pray for his salvation.
@@megofiachra3247 Always the right thing to do. =) I'll ask the other guys at my Bible Study to do so as well.
Interesting note - When someone asked to change the format of the study and show more videos, I decided to take a risk and show his Exodus series. The guys seem to like it, although I think only one of them has ever admitted to being familiar with Peterson.
I forgot I ever made this comment, though, much less made it a year before the Exodus seminar was even announced. Between that, and Klavan's daughter coming out with "A Christmas Karol" (a gender-swapped retelling of the Dickens), and a couple of comments Knowles has featured on his show, I have to wonder whether RUclips comments might actually make a difference.
38:18 Actually Wednesday is a fast day so Tuesday is a very appropriate day to 'let loose'. On another resolution in the western tradition lent starts on a Wednesday so a big inversion festival is observed the day before ie Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday)).
This is gold.
Awesome.
Re: "coffee is a garment of skin" . . an anthropologist who lived with an Amazonian Ayahuaska tribe said the shaman defended himself from enemy shamans by implanting hundreds of tiny "spirit-eyes" into his skin, to serve as an armor of vigilance even when he slept. The shaman had to take coffee regularly to feed the eye-entities. A garment of skin.
BASED
Awesome interview!
Can I get a transcript of this plz? Jebus! This is all fascinating!
Yall need to have Jonathan on again soon.
Have Pageau on staff for your cartoons 👍😀
great interview
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
I have a deep and long held appreciation for comedy. I have thought for some time that comedians were inherently conservative. But Mr. Pageau's comment towards the end made me think twice. I'm not sure he's right... I always thought Aristophanes and Molière were conservative for example. I think "liberal" comedy might be a recent phenomenon resulting from the 60s. And now we're just starting to get back on track.
E Michael Jones has a pretty good talk about comedy. The archetype of the fool would be a complete nihilist because they attack all authority/principle; any categories the zeitgeist holds to be true. It's their job to make you rethink what you believe. The archetype doesn't exist though because we all tend to believe in something and those are the things the clown isn't willing to make jokes about (race for example is touchy), if it did exist that person would become "sad" because there is no meaning, because they destroyed it all.
@@bradspitt3896 do you have a link to EMJ’s comedy talk? Thanks
Finally here!
@41:24 I'd be Orthodoxy today if my wife would get on board with the beards 😜
Beards aren't absolutely necessary, I keep telling myself... 🙁
Yes, I'm married.
Y’all need to get Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick on!
I agree with Pageu on the exploding heads
Trying to drink water during this was a mistake :D
❤❤❤❤
In one of the churches that I attend my Pastor refers to the northern part of the building as the Narthex. Make's sense right?
In Orthodox churches the Narthex is the west end separated by doors. The Sanctuary Is the east end (also separated by doors).
The North, in Orthodox and Catholic Churches, is very interesting too. But that’s another convo too, haha.
That's better than referring to it as the horcrux. That probably wouldn't be so good
@@Loenthall88 You say that, but the northern part of some churches have been used to depict some of the darker scenes of the old testament, and some even have upside-down pentagrams there. The northern part of the church is the darkest part
Jesus made an image of himself, the shroud of Turin, we have a literal image of Jesus, so i think its ok to have images of Jesus just dont worship the images them selfs
I’m only here for Pageau
Yes, you broke their brains.
I like Ethan Nicolle