JONATHAN PAGEAU - Patriarchy. Not what you think it is.
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- A conversation with the host of the Symbolic World and Orthodox icon carver, Jonathan Pageau. Check out Maniphesto Core on maniphesto.com/core-member/
This is a republishing of an episode for the As Iron Sharpens Iron podcast, whicj you can find here: www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts...
0:00 - Coming up
1:00 - Introducing the interview and topic of Patriarchy
2:31 - What has Jonathan been up to, especially Mt Athos visit
8:34 - The ideals and pragmatics of Patriarchy
14:34 - Patriarchy as a pattern of reality
20:00 - On female priests in Christianity
23:33 - Feminine and masculine in the sacraments
26:07 - Marriage as the testing ground of aligning with patterns of reality
28:47 - How to lead as a father in modern society
31:15 - Directing your sexual energy as vital to earning your salvation
33:05 - The temptation for men to hand over the priestly role to their partner
36:30 - How to navigate leading your family with compassion and courage
40:20 - Work - life balance
42:50 - Jonathan's social media engagement
43:30 - Paternal love - through spiritual fatherhood and brotherhood
46:00 - Men in Jonathans parish, circle of friends and family
49:00 - The risk of isolation and stagnation as men age
52:40 - Jonathan's relationship with Jordan Peterson
54:00 - Depth vs breadth in friendships
58:32 - Sins of the right and how to use anger as a power
1:01:35 - The approach of Fr Josiah Trenham and learning obedience
1:05:05 - Taking confession and communion every week as a practice
1:07:35 - Jonathan on and off the pedestal
1:09:54 - A short interlude on Maniphesto
1:11:04 - The balance between sharing publically and staying private
1:16:05 - On The Priesthood and man's priestly role is his family
1:23:22 - What we can learn from military hierarchy
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As an Orthodox Christian, and a wife, I can say there is a danger among Orthodox converts, and the "trad wife" trend in general, to try and emulate a version of marriage that has never actually been demonstrated for us, and in attempting to resurrect some dead version of this relationship, they are setting themselves up for unnecessary conflict and confusion in their relationships. I have been married for 22 years, and my husband and I live in a traditional marriage without the need to remove all of the more modern experiences that result from living in the 21st century, like woman getting an education, or the man doing some laundry. Unless you have an entire very insular community (like the Amish) set up to support strict gender roles, you are going to have to figure out how to have a proper marriage in modernity. The solution isn't to play act at being Ward and June Cleaver, it is to approach marriage with the proper love and submission in whatever you are doing, whether you both have paying jobs or whatever you need to do to survive in this crazy world. Flexibility is important as well, and the idea that there was some time in history where a man was always the boss and never entered the kitchen and a woman always obeyed and never swung an axe is a fantasy, in my opinion.
Men are in charge of the bigger picture and set objectives. Wives have flexibility and capability to accomplish said objections. In the Special Forces that's how it was done.
Although swinging the axe is still best done by a man. He simply has more Athletic potential as a man to do the job best.
We never always obeyed Christ. But we do our best.
Good point. And I dont think any of it contradicts the clear role specialisation and differentiation of sexes which we see through Orthodox tradition. Other than that tradition, my immediate inspiration and goal is to learn from the peaceful and loving acceptance my own parents attained through 45 years of traditional marriage. So for me, for you and many others, traditional marriage roles are alive and well. The main point which is relevant here I think is that in a world which is hell-bent on destroying all differentiation between the sexes and their roles in all spheres of life, Orthodoxy constitutes a increasingly lonely but very powerful counterweight. Thanks for the reminder not to swing the pendulum to far in the opposite direction.
agreed, except for the last bit: historically (and even today in Islamic nations), there have been societies that uphold very strict gender roles, in which, say, your example of a women swinging an axe would be taboo, and exceedingly rare.
@@OrchinX I would agree that in most cases that it true, but perhaps not in the case where if the mother stays home an doesn't make money the family actually loses its home. But yes all things being equal, it's not good for kids to be raised in daycare or to raise themselves.
@@johnrockwell5834 If the children are freezing and the man is off hunting, and the wood needs chopping, a woman would not sit helplessly simply because she's not as efficient at the work. My point is, even when we have boundaries and a clear path, there will always be scenarios where temporarily veering off course or going outside the lines is more beneficial than blind adherence to legalistic rules. What is important is that we understand why we should return to the optimal path as quickly as possible.
I loved this conversation, especially hearing Jonathan talk about his tendencies in relationships/friendships. I can relate to that a lot. It was neat to see this side of him. I admire his wish to remain private, but also appreciate him opening up just a little.
The world is seeking to understand what a true man is, and the space is filled with too many secular points of view. The answer is more Orthodox conversations to provide the true path. Thank you for helping to move this knowledge and awareness forward.
Great conversation. Loved the confessional moments.
I'm not a christian but I found a lot of value in this. Jonathan is wise as always and it's great to see the energy and passion in you Paul. Thank you both!
What a wonderful conversation. Jonathans confession about his weakness in keeping friendships, man can I relate to that. That motivates me alot to reach out to a couple of people … Thank you
Incredibly helpful. I took over a page of notes on this. This was the most important thing I wrote:
“A man needs to develop his capacity to hear and rely on the voice of the Father, because he uses this voice to shape the world for good. He participates in the life of God by being his shepherd on earth for the spiritual destiny of his children.” In wondering exactly what that means, I wrote, “It’s not a fixed principle. Man must continually rely on the voice of the living God.”
So cool. Thanks for your work. Intrigued to engage with more of this.
Wow, this was an amazing conversation. It was wonderful to see you guys open up about your lives. Very useful for us who don’t get this from serious religious people in our personal lives.
Jonathan, yr honest & guarded vulnerability is truly a guiding light to man.
56:00 friendships need shared experiences, especially shared hardship and challenge. Merely staying in touch is insufficient
Johnathan's point about Christian patriarchal leadership being grounded in the example of Christ is profound. The husband *must* lower himself, not opposed to his headship but precisely because of it, to allow his family to flourish. The secularization of hierarchy when it is "lorded over", is not the Christian prescription. The husband must not push against his wife in "leadership", but lead by serving. My wife followed me to Orthodoxy, not because I told her to, not because I pushed her, but because she trusted me enough to look into it as I sought God. It's a nuanced discussion, but so necessary to have. There is a lot of "red pill" wisdom, but also a lot of nonsense. Men must lead through sacrifice, love and service to their families, not by force of will to move their families where they desire.
Yes, we agree. And there are two sides to this. Perhaps this is not the case in your circles, but do you also see a lot of men who have a lot of emphasis on the serving, sacrifice side of things, but have handed over all preistly and pastoral responsibility for the "little church" of the family to their partner? And can you see the pitfall of how the current mainstream culture is pushing men to be increasingly focused on being seen as "good", (virtue signalling by serving, sacrifice, etc) rather than leading their family towards God?
@@ManiphestoMen The problem is not on the emphasis of what is good, eg. sacrifice, service, etc. but the exclusion of what is also good (leadership, opposition to evil, strength of will when oriented correctly), and the inclusion of what is truly poisonous (passivity, abdication of responsibility, weakness of mind, body and spirit. I definitely agree there are always two ways to err, which is why the Orthodox way is sometimes called the middle way, or the Royal path. This is why it's necessary to have voices like you guys, DPH and others, as a counter to the mixed good with poison that people get from someone like Andrew Tate.
@@jeremiahfear4165 yes, that is a better way of formulating it, thanks. Who or what is DPH? And a great weekend to you!
@@ManiphestoMen David Patrick Harry, his channel is Church of the Eternal Logos.
God Bless brother!
This really meant a lot to me. Thank you both, and thank God. I love you guys.
From "The Catholic Gentleman" by Sam Guzman : "When men stopped behaving like gentlemen, women stopped behaving like ladies. Women started asserting their rights because men had stopped recognizing them. Women started doing manly chores because men had stopped doing them. Women became detached from the home because men had become detached from the home." As a daughter of an abusive alcoholic father, these words ring true to my ears. It was vey hard for me to even consider getting married, and even harder for me to become a stay at home mom because I saw first hand how awful it is when a man mistreats his wife and children.
I often meet men who come to me with similar sentiments about life and women - they had a bad childhood and there is something wrong with all the women in the world which means that they are unable to form a long term loving relationship. I really get where this comes from, and I understand the difficulty. And I also tell these men to instead focus on healing themselves, while remaining open, and then the right person will show up.
Perspectives which blame one gender, or pitch men and women as opposed to each other seem to me to be a dead end - philosophically as well as literaly - life is difficult and requires sacrifice and enduring pain and suffering. Despite this, men and women have loved and cherished each other throughout history, as imperfect as they have ben, and have also faced incredible difficulty and challenge and yet managed to come together to be fruitful and multiply.
Evil and good are not gendered. In order to defeat evil, men and women need to stand lovingly together. The best pattern for doing this I have found, after a lifetime of searching, is through Christian marriage.
@@ManiphestoMen In general, I agree with you, particularly in today's society where women now have equal rights in terms of education, voting, the ability to own property and so forth. Of course women and men both have the capacity for great love and great evil. The quote I cited references the past tense, which I take to mean the real historical treatment of women as inferior to men. It's one thing to say that women and men are different -that much is obvious. But it's another thing to say women are inferior to men and to treat them as such in law and culture, and there is not doubt that this has happened in the history of the West.
@@HumanDignity10 Isn't it the marxists who like to view history in terms of oppressor and oppressed? In the country I live in (Denmark) women are very liberated and they are not viewed as inferior at all, but at the same time many of them (12% in 2021 according to "Danmarks statistik") use medically prescribed "anti-depressive" drugs.
But why are Danish (western?) women more "privileged" than earlier but still more depressed?
The christian answer would be that they have turned their back to god. They have cared so much about "rights" that they have forgotten what gives their lifes meaning and purpose (being united with other people in love). And I think the reason why people like myself and Paul wants to "return to god" is because we realise that christianity is not meant to (and never was meant) for oppressing people, instead it is meant to bring meaning and love into a world that needs just that.
And if anybody reads this:
I know I started this comment off in a sort of provocative manner and I am not the best at structuring my writing, so I hope I do not sound too much like an idiot.
I’m glad Pageau articulated all the stuff about the Eucharist/priests early on. When we had our discussion I was wanting to get into that, but I think we ran out of time. It definitely connects to the top-down/bottom-up phenomenon. The priest has a bottom-up relationship to God (representing the people) and a top-down relationship to the people (representing God). And the Eucharistic prayer ping-pongs between the two:
Thine own of Thine own…
(Top-down as it is referring to the fruits of the Earth, wheat and grapes, that God had made)
…We offer unto Thee…
(Humans receive the fruits, exert top-down influence to transform them into bread and wine, then bottom-up offer them to the priest who bottom-up offers them back to God)
…on behalf of all, and for all…
(“Behalf of all” is the bottom-up offering, the “for all” is asking to receive top-down blessings)
So God top-down makes the fruits, humans top-down transform them, offer them to the priest who bottom-up offers them to God, who top-down transforms them into Body and Blood, which the priest top-down distributes to the people.
Probably a confusing mess of a comment, but what I’m trying to communicate and what Pageau touched on here is very profound and reflects how all of reality works (hence why my talk included bottom-up quantum phenomenon interacting with top-down relativistic phenomenon)
I went to Serbia and Kosovo on a pilgrimage once Canada opened up for me. Soul Saving!
Kosovo and Metochia are a Modern and Ancient land of Orthodox Martyrdom, you are so blessed to have the chance to visit it!
Dear brothers in Christ,
I hope you are doing well. I think you touched a very interesting aspect of Patriarchy When you (Jonathan) spoke about "Navigating" through life. I think the whole point is that, because we all have our respective family contexts, so it is not about being perfect but rather Navigating as much as possible towards perfection which is communion with Christ and His Holy Church.
God bless
This guy is killing it! Keep on iterviewing excellent guests!
Excellent conversation. This is the first I've seen of your channel. I will be digging into your work.
This was a great talk Paul. Thanks for doing this.
Thanks David, it is an honour to be able to play a little role.
Damn, I can relate to Pageau's kind of introversion so much, if you can call it that
Jonathan pageau is brilliant
Jonathan is wise to pick his battles when it comes to "pulling rank". If you do it all the time then those under you will eventually feel invalidated and belittled.
Those "under" you, the women of the world, are meant to be invalidated and belittled. That is the purpose of placing women as subhuman submissives with no say in anything that happens to them. You're missing the whole point of Biblical marriage: it is an ownership contract where one man sells a "female" to another and she is nothing but faceless, interchangeable property. Read the Bible to figure out how it actually works. Amazing how Christians will either lie or just lie to themselves about what the Bible actually dictates for women. God HATES women, that's why we are the lowest form of life on earth and our lives are meant to be a punishment. God has tasked men with making sure women are miserable: "His desires will be contrary to yours, but he shall rule over you."
I think this is a big issue in the modern world - the issue of our increasing isolation and lack of a close group of people who see each other in the flesh and regularly - we're losing an intimacy with each other. And ironically we are more packed together than ever, but also have more distractions ... mainly electronic ones ... that draw us away from direct contact and contact through this separating veil that detaches us.
It's probably the most compelling argument in my life for returning to a church community. Which I haven't, but I'm thinking more and more this is the best answer to the isolation *especially* in this modern world.
This was awesome.
@1:05:54 I did not understand why there are so many Confessionals at our Capuchin Monastery nearby. It is such a small hall church, but NOW it is obvious.
Iron Sharpens Iron? I know your voice! Thanks for your content.
Looking back, growing up especially in the 1960's and 1970's, I've noticed that women are the ones who traditionally maintained and grew social relationships ... that social network -- for the family. Ladies, I'm not saying "women should stay home" - but I am saying we lost something as a society when this stopped being the norm. The guy went off and worked to bring the resources it took to maintain the home, the family unit, and the woman took those resources and managed the things that make any of it worthwhile. I am MORE inclined to reach out than other men, and yet I'm still not very inclined to do it. It's something that I have to make an effort, to get out of my comfort zone, to do.
A small group for men is essential in a church but it is sadly not very common.
Thanks
I'm converting after 3 years of Protestantism and after having navigated through swamps upon swamps of contradictory heresies, I very much agree with the sentiment of "I just want someone to tell me what to do, and I don't even care what it is". With the little side note that it has to be coming from the authority of Christ's Orthodox Church, of course. I guess a minimum of critical thinking is needed to determine whether someone is actually speaking as an Orthodox authority but once they're there I'm ready to just be obedient to the leadership that God has assigned to me.
In fact, just a week ago my priest effectively told me that I have to completely abort my current plans for life and commit to the exact opposite, and although I had to manage a minor mental breakdown in that moment, I accepted it instantaneously, so I'm quite sure that this desire to follow an authority is genuine.
What did he say to get married? To be honest if it's creating resources I'd do it. If no Christian man not woman, man is existing currently with no desire to "own hold" billions of resources I am willing to do so then I am that Christian man. Christian Orthodox Monks are supported by common Orthodox Christians so id like to become that human supporting pillar. The patriarchy of difference for good change.
@@IsraelCountryCube Yep! He said I had to either get married or become a monk. Until then, I should stay with my parents, instead of moving out to live on my own. He said that that is the path of the prodigal son.
JP was in my country??? and his wife is from here??????
14:36
17:05
26:20 Marriage
The idea that you have to confess before each communion is not in antiquity and the priest says that is because we all have some small sin but the priests don't practice that themselves, they do not go to confession before they serve.
As a new convert i dont care about prooving myself at this point ive been around for about two years now the saints are grievously ignored by many many priests thats why they dont like the "orthrobros"
I do know there should be a balance but it seems people seem to get too passionate(im guilty), on the other hand get too indifferent,the royal path is the only way
Orthodoxy balances all things but we cant focus on heretics 24/7 lol it will hurt your spiritual life
Fr Seraphim rose helped me alot with this in his writings /homilees
A big problem in modern Western culture is not having the extended family of ants uncles nieces nephews cousins so that when a man locks horns with his wife and he's being sweet and kind and she's being stubborn the rest of the family and particularly other older women will take her aside and put her in her place. In these days the woman has a one-sided extended family through the court system.
29:17 it’s not that men don’t know how to lead (though yes many don’t) it’s that women completely won’t accept it. Something like Mattiue talking about the woman who poses the unanswerable question. You can try the red pill myth of “oh if I just am in the proper frame she’ll always blah blah…” but that just doesn’t seem to be reality anymore….
Wasn’t the red pill goal/ Prescription only to sleep around with as many as women as you wanted? That because of how modern dating and male and female dynamics have changed it’s counterproductive to get married or something like that?
Responding to your question: My answer would be we are all called to be like Christ. Though we take up that calling in different ways as men and women. Men take it up by leading and protecting. And I wouldn’t do this video Justice to summarize what I learned. Here’s the link:
ruclips.net/video/UgAF7fy-I0s/видео.html
Yes, nothing in life is more difficult that creating an intimate, trusting and powerful relationship with a woman. Indeed it is a mystery. Luckily, we just have the rest of our life to try to do as well as we can. And luckily, we dont need "women" in the abstract to accept anything. What you need to do is to find one female who you can build a relationship and life in God with. There are plenty of women out there who are looking for a man to do the same thing. Anbd I agree the redpill stuff does not at all go to the root of the problem, buut is more focsed on trying to deal with symptoms, which at best could give results for men who are looking for superficial hook-ups.
If you find yourself having the thought that that "all woman are xyz" then it could be a good idea to work on building some strong brotherly relationships with men - once you have that, the right woman will come along.
first rule of being a leader is don't blame the world if nobody follows you, blame yourself
I just want to make a comment about how one should view the possibility of marriage. In some of the responses you wrote statements like:
"There are plenty of women out there who are looking for a man to do the same thing."
"If you find yourself having the thought that that "all woman are xyz" then it could be a good idea to work on building some strong brotherly relationships with men - once you have that, the right woman will come along."
Don't you think that framing it that way can lead unhelpful expectations? The way I have found that is most helpful to frame it is the idea that you have to be prepared to live your life as a celibate even as a lay person (which has its own particular challenges, keep in mind that I am not thinking about the "life long bachelor" living in hedonism, I have in mind essentially following monastic level celibacy), because you don't actually know that "the right woman will come along". If she comes, you will have not sinned, as St. Paul said.
In other words, the idea would be something like this, instead of saying "do such and such a the right woman comes along", "be prepared to live in celibacy, in that way you are less likely to compromise on your faith out of idolizing being married".
A phrase I read once was something like this "you have the right to grieve but not to sin". I am afraid that if the person puts such an expectation in getting married, he will possibly choose the latter. What I think is that if the person puts getting married in the pedestal like that, as if you cannot live as a lay celibate Christian, you will possibly end up compromising aspects of your faith. I think we should avoid both the Catholic and Protestant perspectives, in which for the Catholics celibacy is viewed as higher than being married, while in Protestantism there is no room for celibacy basically.
TL; DR: What I miss in some of these discussions is the idea that to live as a lay celibate is also a legitimate ascetic path for an Orthodox Christian, along with marriage and monasticism.
(Also, I apologize for the redundancy in some parts of this comment, I would need more time to write something more structured).
An interesting question.
St Paul says in Cor 7: 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
So yes, you are right in the respect that marriage is for those who "cannot exercise self control". That means there is no choice between celibacy and marriage, but rather between marriage and sex outside of marriage.
My understanding of the interpretation of the Church in this is, if you decide to be celibate, then you should go towards monasticism. The reason married men work, is the responsibility to provide for their families. Men who do not intend to marry do not have responsibility to provide and can thus dedicate their entire life to God - which is exactly what monastacism is.
@@ManiphestoMen
Before getting married, is fornication allowed? No, which means that the person has to strive to maintain celibacy for that period before marriage. My whole point is that perhaps this will last a lifetime, because one cannot know if one will get married. Those statements you made were simply platitudes "the right one will come along", "there's plenty of women out there". Something I learned even before being received in the Orthodox Church and which I found the fullest confirmation in the Book of Job is that things do not need to occur the way we want them too, there is no problem or conflict there, God is not made less because of that. It is even the case that they have a purpose. For example, in my life if everything I wanted occurred the way I wanted it to, I doubt I would have ever developed interest in religions which culminated in converting.
Perhaps we will just keep "hitting heads" if the discussion continues.
Nevertheless, it was a good discussion you had with Jonathan, I only wanted to make that commentary.
Note: I deleted the comment I accidentally made with my other channel.
While I'm open to the idea that men should be leaders in the family, and I understand theoretically why people say that, I struggle with how I've seen that play out it a lot of Christian families. Men should be really careful about focussing too much on "being the leader", because from what I've seen this tends to lead to broken relationships and the kids rebelling and leaving the faith in the long run. Probably it has to do with how the men lead - when pride and ego creep in it can be very destructive (I'm sure the same can be said for how some women "lead" too).My parents' marriage and our family dynamic is the happiest and healthiest that I have ever encountered. The older I get the more realize just how rare and beautiful it is to have a family like ours, and my brother and I have had multiple childhood friends comment on how abnormally good it is as well, some even going so far as to thank my parents for allowing them to be a part of it to the degree that they were growing up. In many ways my mom does tend to be the one to lead, at least on the surface, because she is more naturally decisive and less agreeable, although there's a lot of mutual leadership and submission that goes on. But I think part of the reason that it works so well is because my dad has no real ego. He has a true servant's heart and in turn, my mom is a true servant to him. My point is, I think we have to be very careful how we think of and approach spiritual leadership, especially within marriage and family.
Hi Paul! Interesting name 😄 did you hear? Jesus was the son of Augustus and brother to Tiberius. When he exited the tomb he spread Islam Judaism Christianity. The three WISEMEN were Islam AGNOSTIC christian gave Mary a new identity. Joseph the greatest spy you never heard of. SHEPERD of people. Jesus figured out govt was corrupt. The world 🌎 is shaped by we the people. He also knew ATLANTIS=ANTARTICA fire rained waters rose. A weapon. We call it a nuclear bomb. Jesus knew it was a weapon. We have been here before. People believe a few million people existed a few thousand years ago. Between wars plagues murders old age child death accidents etc etc. Population is 8billion today!
9 billion souls exist on earth all the time. We have been here before. Different body. Same voice. I guess you got the same name. Hahaha how lucky of you. PAUL. God is very real. Forever and immortal but cannot move? That's a slave no? Perhaps god is the slave and our movement gives GOD FREEDOM ☝️
Praise God that you have such a family! And I think it is great you have that foundation for understanding marriage.
Perhaps a way to consider this is that we find growth in the intersection of our experiences and in the teachings of our tradition. These two things may be equal in importance, but they are not equal in leadership - the tradition should lead the way. If what we deduce from our experiences directly contradicts Holy Scripture for example, then we submit to Holy Scripture - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Of course that is fractally similar to saying that growth happens in a marriage at the intersection of the husband and the wife, with the husband leading the way, but loving his wife. It doesnt mean that the wife has nothing to offer, neither does a leader have to be the one actively making all the decisions. On the contrary, good leaders empower others to make good decisions as much as possible and trust their followers. They are concerned with the overall direction rather than the method of moving. So this is a descriptive pattern of reality to be understood rather than a "rule of power relations".
Yes, the most important aspect of leading is subservience. When fathers demand obedience but don't afford the same to God, their families pick up on that and rebel, leading to fractured relationships and the father becoming tyrannical out of desperation, as he tries to hold the family together.
In a healthy family like yours, the hierarchy feels very natural rather than forced. At the heart of that is a strong relationship between husband and wife under God. The wife can lead the children and run the household with minimal interference from the husband, because the children are subservient to her; the husband needs not be overly forceful because his family is subservient to him; the family respect and approve of the father's leadership because he is subservient to God.
The first thing is to not be a hypocrite.
Next is to get the reason in check. The Logos has to be in every decision you make ideally. Every boundary needs a logos.
Also needs to be room for charity and error. And mercy. If the wife or kid is rebelling it could be pride, but it could be from a lack of trust. The emphasis on no hypocrisy will fix the trust part.
What I got from this is that Jonathan is very prayerful.
He puts God at the top of everything, and he doesn’t overthink.
God inspires him.
This other gentleman I think from observation is trying too hard to do what he’s supposed to do.
I don’t know what his prayer life is like but I would recommend that he spend a long time every day and prayer.
Whatever that would be for him.
Because it sounds like he’s not letting go and letting God lead him.
It sounds like he’s trying to make sure that he has a good marriage, etc. and good channel etc…
I don’t think Jonathan does that.
I think that Jonathan is natural, he’s in love with the Lord and the Holy Spirit is filling in constantly.
I don’t think he’s concerned about all that stuff from his brain…only God.
So I think it’s important to remember that when you are married, it’s a particular relationship between you and your partner and the Lord God right there as the glue.
So the struggles that occur aren’t necessary.
I wouldn’t worry so much about saying the right things to the spouse or anything that’s not a good idea.
That is not God leading you it is you leading God.
Just thought I’d mention that.
I kind of felt this was a therapy session, and the Jonathan was the therapist trying to respond to the questions that were plaguing the other man.
He sounded like he was enthralled with Jonathan, and that he felt he was much closer to Jonathan then Jonathan felt he was to him.
I know nothing about that other man and I have listened to Jonathan quite a bit and that’s just what I noticed.
God bless you all.
Thanks for your personal input to me. Yes, I am honoured to be helped by Jonathan in my seeking to understand these things. And yes, I fully agree that prayer - which for my case is guided a spiritual father in the Orthodox Church - is the most powerful tool to move forward.
Maniphesto contact information is not working something's wrong with your website. I fill in my name and email and it says it is blank I must fill it in. Then it says no quotation marks but there were not.
Starts @14:30 .
Paul, I’ve been trying to figure out how to get in touch with Jonathan for about a year now to get him on our show. I tried on twitter but he’s rarely on there. Any chance you have an email for him?
Sorry, I can't hand that out publically to people I don't know for obvious reasons.
Try contact on his website
Many good highlights in the conversation, and I especially appreciated Jonathan‘s disclosures about his relationships. One point that did not make sense to me was why Paul’s “leadership“ effectiveness would have required his wife to abandon her theological studies. This seems unnecessary, as all should be able to deeply study the holy scriptures regardless of marital status. Aside from that, it was a pleasure to hear the interaction between these two brothers in Christ.
Hi Sonia, thanks for the comment and yes, it was valuable to see a bit more of the man behind the Symbolic World. Obviously I was not saying that women can never study the Bible for men to take leadership. Studying the Bible essential for men and women alike. Women here in Scandinavia are constantly encouraged and even pushed to compete with men in typical male pursuits. In some ways, masculine achievement is glorified as the only valuable, while the feminine role is ignored or even despised at times. This has resulted in many women following paths unsuited to them. My wife stopping her Protestant theology studies had meant that she is using her time in a way that is far more fulfilling for her now.
There is something about Paul that worries me with regard to his views between male and female and he and his wife. Cannot put my finger on what it is. I am worried for his wife
Mount Athos is the one of the most holy places on earth..no words can describe it..Pack a bag and go experience what it means strong God presence ❤
I bet its common to be unable to recollect personal relationships when bearing the heavy memory of the infinite fractal creations created by the Word that was with God, The Word.
The simple reason why men must be head of a family has nothing to do with male superiority- it is that as the outward facing member of the unit - men by being avatar for divine masculine energy have to participate in hierarchy - women are not inferior - but as avatar for divine feminine energy we are collective and thoroughly democratic - we are the leaders of the internal workings of our family which we can only focus on and run efficiently if we can face inwardly on the household - that can only happen if our man is in charge of the family’s place in society and holding our family’s place in the social hierarchy- if we could channel the divine essences properly - there would never be competition between husband and wife because they are in charge of different but complimentary spheres of creation - The Fall was both Adam and Eve mishandling their masculine and feminine essences -
I struggle with this topic, and many parts of this conversation made me uncomfortable. I converted to Catholicism this spring after many years of discernment, and my conversion would never have happened if it weren't for my husband's willingness to challenge my subscription to contemporary progressive orthodoxies. God often speaks to me through my husband, and He has used my marriage to change my heart. My husband is planning to convert, as well. We have an extraordinarily happy marriage these days. I'm in my mid-30s now and grateful to be home with my very young kids. Previously, I would've been devastated by the cost of motherhood on my career. While my husband leads in important ways, our interactions spring from a place of egalitarianism. I'm grateful for JPII's emphasis on mutual submission in marriage.
As a woman with an intellectual bent and an interest in theology, I was alarmed to hear that Paul's wife was advised to give up her theological studies to support his own. Why the zero-sum approach? Paul also seems to seriously entertain the notion that women should refrain from taking communion during menstruation.* I respect people's desire and need to work through these issues privately in the context of their marriages. But it also seems to me that an excessive interest in maintaining symbolic purity can lead to patriarchal tyranny. Women are rightly concerned about this danger in light of original sin and the distortion it creates in their relations with men.
*Forgive me if I have misrepresented this comment of yours. Perhaps you are just commenting on how symbolism guided sex-specific rules for communion in the early Church. Excluding menstruating women sounds insane to me, given the importance of the Eucharist for one's relationship with Christ.
Hi Megan,
Thanks for the considered and balanced comment. And that sounds like you have a great dynamic in your marriage. Praise God!
I should underline here - the purpose of what I am doing here is not to put forward my own opinions on marriage, men and women, etc. Rather, I am sharing my own experiences and insights in an attempt to find deeper truth. I am no priest and do not consider myself a theologian.
I will mention that many of the deepest and transformative truths I have been confronted with have been the most difficult for me to peacefully accept. I can see your point that for our modern mind, the idea of women not communing because they are menstrating can sound archaic. And I would also not call anything from church tradition "insane".
I dont know much about the idea, nor do I believe it to be a dogmatic issue, so therefore not useful to focus on too much. But I believe that there are Orthodox Christian communities who practice it. And it is really so insane, compared to much of what we see out in the world? There is a clear pattern of this kind of purity practices with a very long history in our tradition from Judaism. The same doctrine applies to a man who has had a nocturnal emission the night before - I assume you understand why that is the case? And priest who is bleeding anywhere is also not allowed to serve liturgy.
For me, these having awareness of these doctrines helps me to ponder more deeply the Holy Mysteries and the idea of the Incarnation of God in flesh.
@@ManiphestoMen Thanks for the thoughtful response, Paul. Do you have a reference for the discussion of these practices? I'm sure they made sense in an ancient context, but we are not ancient peoples. Nonetheless, I'm interested in the reasoning behind the custom and the symbolic meaning it conveys.
The modern psychological experience is quite different, for better and worse. I would contend that God will use even these changes--the collapse of human consciousness into subjectivity, our increased sense of interiority--to bring us closer to Him. Symbolism helps us catch a glimpse of the beatific vision, but we are also individual human Persons in need of healing--and wretched sinners, for that matter. It's my understanding that Christ emphasized purity of heart over purity of body. He healed the bleeding woman who touched his cloak. She was likely excluded from the temple because of her "impurity." It seems to me that excluding menstruating women from communion is disordered, if not insane.
I think the larger danger, as I mentioned before, is the tyrannical imposition of these patterns on reality (as if we could impose what already exists in the first place!). But I'm a neophyte and have much to learn. Thanks for the opportunity for a bit of dialogue.
P.S. I hope your wife is able to continue studying theology if it's something she loves to do.
@@megankayI don't have a reference for you unfortunately and am certainly not properly informed myself. All I know are that the roots of it are in the Jewish purity laws, all of which have deep significance and meaning for our faith today. I believe several church fathers have written about it. But i will put it on a list I have for the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast I do with two priests.
As for my wife, given that she was studying at a postmodern protestant University, she doesn't miss being there one little bit. But yes, she still reads theological works all the time.
@@ManiphestoMen I don't doubt the symbolic significance and deep meaning, especially in the Jewish and Orthodox traditions. I'm glad Catholicism doesn't recommend this practice! It's good to hear that things have worked out for your wife. Best wishes to you both.
A single tear just fell from my cheek by the love and beauty demonstrated in this exchange. God Bless you both!
About a year and a half ago, my oldest daughter got married. Since then, I’ve been thinking ‘What the hell am I supposed to do now?’ That probably sounds goofy, but this is where I’m coming from. I managed to keep food on the table after I lost my job twice in one year. I repaid a large debt from 1,500 miles away while going through a lawsuit. I’m the kind of guy who gets things done, so to suddenly be in a situation where I have no responsibilities was not sitting well. I asked myself this question ‘How do you know your place in community?’
This is what I came up with after much prayer, self-reflection, discussions and reading.
Think of this as a process flow. It starts with my son-in-law’s purpose. If his purpose captures my attention and draws me in, I’ll give consent. At the same time, he will give me permission. When I’ve given consent and get permission, there will be certain obligations, from my perspective, to help meet his goal. There will also be certain expectations, from his perspective, of me to attain his goal. I’ll do this by using my time, talent and treasure.
The question becomes ‘why do I give consent and why do I get permission?’ It starts with right worship (captures my attention and is something I want to imitate). If I can see that my son-in-law’s purpose follows the pattern of Christ, I’ll give consent. If what I give him is clear, helps him stay on track and understand that there is a cost for failure, he will give permission and continue giving permission. Said another way, if what I give is not clear, it will lead to confusion. If I’m clear, but not accurate, he could go down the wrong path and not know he’s on the wrong path. If I act as though there is no cost for failure, he’ll end up paying the full price for any failure.
Assuming that is right, that is an image of the incarnation. My daughter gets her identity from me, but in their project, I would be subject to her - and her husband. Just like Mary and Joseph got their identity ultimately from Christ as God. At a given moment and for a period of time Christ was subject to them.
When Jonathan says that ‘He reestablishes the hierarchy and orients it in service,' it really resonates with me and confirms what I've been thinking. This was a great conversation. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing. May I ask what prompts you to put your son in law's purpose at the center of your purpose? And what do you do if they do not consent, or if their consent is mainly driven from politeness and being worried about offending you?
Surely in Pageaus framework, the central aspect aspect of purpose has to be your directing of your own attention towards God, and everything else being secondary to that?
@@ManiphestoMen These are really good questions, and I don't normally get replies to my comments. So, this may end up being awkward.
I should clarify. My son-in-law's purpose is at the center of the life he is trying to build. If I want to enter that hierarchy, I give consent to it. By contrast if they want to be hippy drug users, I don't have to give consent. However, if they need help building a chicken coop or teaching the grandkids, I can give consent.
If they want to enter my hierarchy, they will have to give consent and I would have to give permission. If they trying to be 'polite' or 'worried about offending' eventually I stop giving permission because the information they are providing is not clear or they are not giving feedback that is tightly coupled to my purpose.
One of the things I'm noticing with Pageau's work is that he is trying to show that all of reality is a system of overlapping hierarchies (fractal and nested). With the life I'm trying to build, I'm trying to align my purpose with Christ. Anyone who wants to enter this hierarchy, has to give consent. Then they have to give clear and accurate information and acknowledge that error matters. If not, I'll stop giving permission.
If I enter someone else's hierarchy, then I have to be able to see the pattern of their purpose in Christ (the one that I worship) then give consent and enter their hierarchy.
I hope this clarifies. Let me know if you think I have misrepresented Jonathan Pageau's work. I really have a lot of respect for him, and don't want to make his work harder.
One thing I’ve been curious about Paul is that you work with a lot of non Christians and some even seem quite antichristian such as Alexander Bard. I’d be fascinated to know more about how that works.
Hi Secretname (a handle that also invites curiosity),
The answer is pretty simple - Maniphesto was started before I converted and in fact Alexander Bard was my partner in starting it. That is however no longer the case, as we parted ways last year after what I experienced as him not managing to engage constructively or honestly on our differences.
These days I increasingly see that conversations with Orthodox Christian leaders are the most interesting and valuable for me. I also don't mind having conversations with people who are non-Christian or even anti-Christian - more important to me is the ability to listen and engage constructively. I also spend time and energy engaging with people from my own non-Christian past. There are many confused seekers in those mileu where I come from, and creating content which is relevant for them helps me to understand and integrate my own journey better.
🥹.
I sense a sort of hesitation to philosophy in Orthodox circles. Like they don't really know how to integrate it but speak vaguely about it. I think that is a big part of reclaiming or transforming our current masculine identity. The fear of the Lord comes first (the heart), then the sacrements lift up the reason which lifts up the body. It isn't at all primary, but we shouldn't fear becoming hellenic. That means you don't understand how the fathers viewed it.
The Orthodox church is the holder and the guardian of the understanding of the Church Fathers. As I have seen, it integrates all that is good from hellenic philosophy, while discarding that which is not useful. So your perspetive needs to be flipped - we do not become hellenic, instead as Christians, we have Christianised hellenism.
@@ManiphestoMen I agree with you, I've just seen Orthodox people flip it. In fact, really the only people I've seen understand the role of philosophy and be unapologetic about it are Ortho bros on YT and ROCOR fathers, and they constantly get attacked.
Deborah
The idea of directing all one’s sexual energy towards one’s wife somehow seems like a very modern idea to me. I think the traditional idea would be more of directing those energies towards the family, the society and ultimately towards God. So I wonder if there is a bit of a danger there of turning one’s wife and one’s marriage into an idol.
Yes, this is just a first step towards those higher goals of really experiencing and knowing Eros, which is ultimately experienced in God.
Now I want to hear the trinity jokes…
“The priest must have testicles.” 😂 I love the absolute matter of factness with which he said that. No softening of words here, just truth!
most divorces are initiated by women, and with no fault divorce there is very little chance of the man being "patriarchal" in a relationship. it just doesnt work as a whole and i think this is one of the major areas of modern life that the church does not address
Yes, women do push back on our men, we test them, not cos the "thing " is necessarily what we want, but cos we want to know what our man is made of. Women are epigenetic and will step in where there is a gap in the heirarchy out of need, fr the sake of the survival of the tribe/family. But we definitely do relax when the men take the lead (not overt power, but the lead. The difference is important).
I have experienced the insanity of filling in for the weakness of a man and the peace that comes with accepting the leadership of a good man. This dynamic takes place in the workplace as well as the family.
I think you are right. And I think that women also face a temptation to dominate their man, just as men face a temptation to tyrannise their woman. Both the result of a distorted and self sabotaging approach to relationship based on selfishness.
@@ManiphestoMen The difference being that God calls on men to punish women for standing up for themselves or their children or for what is right against men, but men are encouraged to tyrannize women and there are no rules or punishments against it. On the contrary, the Bible says, "His desires will be contrary to yours, and he will rule over you." Men are called by God to make women miserable, hurt them, humiliate them, and use them as interchangeable dumpsters and house slaves, because women cost men paradise. Thus justifying lying to women that if they are subjugated and humiliated and abused enough, their husbands might let them go to heaven. Of course, it wouldn't be paradise for men if women were there, now would it?
pageau is based and circular reasoning pilled
What are women good for in this model of proper human hierarchy?
In Christian theology humans are not supposed to be reduced to their utility. If you are asking about the role of a "traditional" wife in comparison to a modern wife then the traditional wife will make her values and priorities center around her home, husband, family, and service to the church or religious community.
Well said @paigeu23. If we are not talking about the role of a wife, but women in general, then women have a role which is more equated to "body", while the male role is more "head". The model is Christ and his Church, Christ as the Head and Logos is as men, the Church as the Body of Christ is as women. You can also think of it a the level of a human being, where the "head" is the rational and cognitive part, while the body is the intuitive part. It is important to understand that these are not scientific categories, but simply patterns which manifest at multiple levels of reality in order to help us create meaning.
Of course, men and women are children of God and find their being and value in being united with Him. The Orthodox tradition is focsed on theosis, and "In Christ there is no male or female".
@@ManiphestoMen while both those analogies are biblical and accurate, I think the insight they hold gets lost in our modern age because we don't understand the body or the fractal nature of reality the same way people did in a less materialistic age. The analogy that I find most useful is the comparison of men and women to the left and right hemispheres of the brain. The left side being the rational, deductive, compartmentalizing side responsible for logical processing and creating order and the right side being connected to the subconscious, creative, intuitive, chaotic side that we experience in our dreams or in a hallucinatory experience. This provides some insight into complimentary relationship because the left brain is greatly handicapped if it doesn't have input from the right and vice versa. In order for the left/masculine to bring order to chaos it must have a keen awareness of what the right/feminine is experiencing and trying to bring awareness to.
@@paigeu23 great point, and yes I can see that probably works better for most non orthodox people these days. Perhaps I should freshen up on Iain Gilchrist, isn't it him with The Master and his emissary ?
I wonder what battle Johnathan lost with his wife, is she a poor cook?