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Quran (only scripture with 100% accuracy/preservation) says Allah is “Al-Ahad”(one/indivisible).Philosophically, It is impossible for 3 distinct perfections to exist simultaneously. Father (Perfection 1/distinct1) =Son (Perfection 2/distinct2)=idolatry.This is due to addition of two extra perfections that are Co-equal/Co-eternal&distinct with Allah(the most Exalted). Not just the Quran, but also the old/New Testament textually establish tauheed(monotheism). So, then why believe in trinity and associate two imaginary parts to Allah(one/indivisible/Self-Sufficient/All-Loving)? How could your love/worship be undivided/exclusive for Allah(the most Exalted) when there are two other equally unique/perfect entities to adore? The verses of bible used by trinitarians are extremely vague and require hard interpretation to extract the understanding that Father/Son/Holy Ghost are Co-equal/Co-Eternal&distinct.
I always enjoy Jonathan's conversations with Father Stephen because you can tell that he genuinely respects him. Often you see fathers looking up to Jonathan or asking him for clarification on symbolic and spiritual matters and it can feel a little awkward hierarchically. But with Father Stephen he's always in conversation with an equal, or even a superior, in insight and knowledge. It just feels right.
Dont be mistaken, consider the Holy ones who lived atop columns, and the holy fools like St.Basil who were consulted by even Bishops... I'm not insinuating Jonathan is a Saint in any way. But you may be mistaking the heirachy of the offices with the Souls who inhabit them... We kiss priests hands not because of _who_ they are but because of *what* they are _perse_
This is my favorite episode so far. It feels like Jonathan finally found somebody to discuss up to the edge of his ability. I feel like most of the times it’s just him trying to make others understand, this one was an actual conversation.
Please speak with Fr Stephen more. His conversations with Fr Andrew are of course great but it’s so great to see Fr Stephen’s wealth of knowledge meet your wealth of knowledge in this unique way. Glory be to God.
This conversation was just amazingly deep. I’m not Orthodox and I’ve never heard of this explanation of the Ham story and Noah’s drunkenness. And the whole relation to the head covering Scriptures in 1 Corinthians. I’m just awestruck. It was so amazing. Thank you, Jonathan and Fr. Stephen .
@W-G Start at the beginning. It's all great, but they do begin with the fundamentals. Even if you're aware, it's good to have a refresher every once in a while.
The Lord of Spirits and Whole Council of God verse by verse Bible study with Fr Steven has been pivotal in my understanding of God's Word. I thank God for him and his gift of teaching us.
@@prettycatlick4373 I have respect for Dr Heiser and I hope God has mercy on his soul. But his work comes from a Prostatant knowledge background so I feel like its limited to that realm. Fr Stephen's work is from the Church fathers and tradition and once you hear and apply those teachings the Bible becomes complete. Its not theory or I think this is what it means its what the Holy Spirit wanted us to know in completeness. Thats why when I listen to what he says it all snaps together in place. I hope and pray Father Stephen continues to enrich our lives with more of this knowledge.
I'm so glad the guest brought up the damage the idea of the nuclear family has done! I'm from a Mexican family so it's actually a foreign idea to how I was brought up and it's seen as a very American idea. My extended family would always go to my grandparents house and even further extended family would have reunions there too but not very often. I see how distant (both physically and socially) many Americans live from their families and it's sad. The other side of my family is like that and I am simply not as close to them because of that (that side of the family is American btw). I usually bring up the "nuclear family" along with the birth control pill as to what started the decay of the family structure in our culture.
NGL Im in the exact same situation except im on the American side. But im really disconnected from my Mexican side of my family now because of the death of my father and the falling out between my mother and my uncle. I really miss being with the Mexican side of my family. But you inspired me to reunite with them even if I have to leave out my mother and brother.
It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Ireland. One of the characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but they continue to invite him to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. If Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
Matthieu’s video with Jordan should be seen with this one. To not marry the stranger who’s to far nor to marry too close, but marrying the stranger who loves you. Cosmic patterns revealed at every level 🤔
Every time I listen to a Symbolic World discussion my mind is blown. 🤯 I have NEVER heard of this interpretation of Noah's drunkenness and Ham's sin, and now it all makes so much sense! The patterns are there!
I had heard both the interpretation about the uncovering of Noah and the interpretation of women covering their heads that was discussed here from the late Dr. Heiser several years ago. But i really appreciated how it was fleshed out and discussed here, especially in terms of ongoing patterns in the Bible. thank you both!
Its so interesting. I feel so cool when everyone flips out over these thoughts, like, Heiser was yappin about this online way before Lord of Spirits was a thing. Convergence. Fun.
@@prettycatlick4373 Convergence yes...but it's the other way round. The Greek and Ethiopian believers have been versed in this for 2 thousand years. The Russian, Serbian and Romanian believers for nearly 1000 years and of course they all inherited this from the ancient Hebrews which stretch back 4 to 5 thousand years. Father Stephen and Jonathan Pageau are simply translating these ideas into modern english for modern english speaking materialist culture. Fr Stephen even points that out in the video. This is not a knock on Heiser. After all, he managed to reveal these truths through the cacophony of Protestant culture which is, in itself, a miracle.
It’s also important that he does this while Noah is ‘sleeping’ from ‘drinking’. Noah goes into a “little death”, where Ham then tries to “steal his inheritance”.
It makes me think too of how YHWH puts Adam into a similar kind of sleep and brings forth new life out of him. This is even in the context of being surrounded by “fruit” of the “vine” (trees and vines/bushes are frequently conflated biblically) from which he is invited to frequently partake, and his commission being as a “tender” of this fruit. Ham appears to be a twisted inversion of this: seizing what God would have given in his own good time, and resulting curse experienced by his progeny.
Wow, this answered so many questions for me!!! This discussion was so content rich! I listen to the LOS podcast and I'm going through Genesis with Fr. Stephen now on his Whole Counsel of God podcast. He brings out themes and layers that I didn't even learn in Bible College and never knew existed. Listening to Fr. Stephen teach is like panning for gold and striking it rich with each dip in the river of his knowledge.
‘What it requires of us is a complete reversal of what is real.’ There is a reality behind what we think is real.knocking it out of the park, gentlemen!
I appreciate Fr. Stephens point about the nuclear family. It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Derry. One of the recurrent characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but nevertheless they continue to invite him along to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. The truth is that if Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
I've heard about this concept before on Dr. Heiser's podcast (Naked Bible: Episode 159). It makes all the sense in the world, fits so many pieces into the puzzle, and I'm so thankful that Fr. Stephen is on the same track. ❤️🔥
Man, this was an amazing discussion. I know I've said this on other videos, but this is the exact type of thing I follow this channel for. These seemingly insignificant or obscure things that open an entirely new realm of understanding. I love it. I was raised in crazy evangelical cults, went militantly atheist for a while, delved into occult/esoteric/satanic whatever you want to call it stuff for years...but all the while I had these Bible stories lodged in my brain, in my heart I guess, that I had no idea what to do with, but I KNEW held meaning and truth beyond the mundane, materialistic way they were taught to me. I guess that's my weird, convoluted way to say thank you. Seriously, thank you. There really aren't enough or adequate words to describe how much this channel has helped me. It's been a life saver. ps If I can ever get Sundays off work, I'm going to start attending our local Orthodox temple. I don't know if I have it in me to fully convert or whatever, I really don't know. I just know its been steady on my mind for years now and I'm trying to get my boss to change my schedule.
Depending on the size if the Orthodox church, they may have Saturday evening services (the evening part of the daily service that finishes with liturgy Sunday morning) or occasional weekday services for specific feasts, in case that works with your schedule
@@carolinef9886 I'm definitely going to try to hit some of the holiday services if my schedule isn't changed by then. But I'm pushing for Sunday/Monday off, cuz I've been working weekends my whole life.
This is my first time attend lacture on your Digital Platform but I so influence of your language as word used in this lecture very impressive if any kind of school going by or study a higher to understand one required sone knowledge of English words, I want tell at public domin accepted in India not working a on this week ness now I am attend your lacture continuously one in a day. Thanks for spreading a good knowledge in the video. Again thanks
Listening to you two cover the idea of the "not too close, not too far" makes me realise why early church fathers appreciated Aristotle so much, with his Mean and all that.
In Vedic religion, man came from the incestuous relationship of Yama, the god of death, and his sister, Yami. In the Upanishads, one of the 3 origin myths speaks about how Prajapati, the supreme creator deity, had sex with his own daughter, for which the other gods had him killed. From the seed that fell to the ground - man came forth. This correlates perfectly with what you say about the pattern of incest as the "scandal of the beginning".
This is also integrating what I learned in seminary when I was studying for my Masters in Theology. Not in conflict with what I learned but rather ties together and deepens what I learned. 2nd time listening.🙏 Thank you!!
Thank you for the discussion! The balance of the strange and the familiar has been an area of contention for me for a long time. This video brought much clarity to me!
After reading Dr. Scott Hahn's "A Father WHo Keeps His Promises," I came away with the feeling that God was a serial failure. Every time he tried something, it didn't work. Somewhere in this episode, one of you mentioned how Christ resolves tensions and conflicts that are highlighted in the Hebrew scriptures. That seemed like an interesting approach. E.g., yes, everything fails in the OT, but Christ is able to pull together all the loose ends and tie it all together. This would follow along with the concept of Christ being the answer to the entire law.
The other other teacher I've heard teach the truth about the hair is the late Dr. Michael Heiser. Good job! I didn't hear you connect the Noah/Ham episode with Leviticus teaching on exposing the Father's nakedness.
WoWoW...so interesting.. And truly enjoyable how it was presented...I am in awe...I am also thankful that it was taught in a manner that I could understand all of it...the flow and depth of the conversation kept me interested...and I feel a bit illuminated....well...alot
1:00:14 Miroslav Volf does a great job of unpacking the tension between belonging and distance, and how this plays into both group and individual identity, in _Exclusion and Embrace_. Highly recommended reading for a fuller treatment of that issue!
Check out “Exclusion and Embrace” by Miroslav Volf. Chapter 2 is all about the need for both distance and belonging. Excellent unpacking of this concept!
Compensating (covering) for the father’s deficiencies (nakedness) shows up a few times in scripture (like Tobias healing his father Tobit’s blindness) - also appears in the holy grail story re: redeeming the maimed king (who’s Galahad’s ancestor)
Seems like Orthodox Christianity is the answer in many ways for us in the deep west, but as he says because of internet this is first time many of us are hearing of the deep history, wisdom and knowledge Orthodox holds. Catholicism has a few strange things when you start to understand Orthodox perspective.
When I became a Christian and was looking into different kinds of churches, eventually Roman Catholicism caught my eye, but I learned some basic history, found Orthodoxy and then dropped all interest in the RCC immediately.. The more I learn the more I understand I made the right decision in all of that 😆
I feel the same way, I was raised a catholic, didnt know anything about it or other denominations, turned away from church at 14 to about 24 and now looking into going to closest Orthodox church here in NZD after learning a lot about Christianity. Orthodox just makes sense to me. @@abigail5484
Like what kind of strange thing? I'm pretty sure all of this symbolic understanding is totally available in Catholicism if you dig a little bit. In fact, listening to Pageau made me return to Catholicism (I stopped attending mass since I was a kid) and I feel right at home where I am now.
Hello Jonathan. I'm not Orthodox but I really appreciate your work and really enjoyed this interview. I actually share the views put forward here on Ham's sin and the "head covering" referenced by Paul. I would love to hear your thoughts on the incest/usurpation theme in Hamlet (although I know you are more of a Medieval guy) and also how the woman's hair as sexual symbol factors into Rapunzel. Her hair kind of seems to relate to the idea of fertility and the "forbidden fruit" motif of her parents eating from Mother Gothel's garden. Anyhow, thanks for sharing good, thoughtful Christian content. God bless you.
How beautiful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much better is your love than wine, And the fragrance of your oils Than all kinds of spices! Song of Solomon 4:10 I thought this verse was appropriate when talking about Christ and Him having a sister and bride.
Man. I really wanted to hear Jonathan say "Satan wants to make you his bitch!" lol... he's too ethical for that so I won't mention it either. This really does make it quite clear to us to whom we should follow. This is why the gravest sin is Betrayal.
There’s the visual image of Fr, Stephen that I have concocted - listening to 100s hrs of Whole Counsel etc - so seeing him ‘in the flesh’ is super weird.
This was a fascinating conversation, but if "uncovering the nakedness of your father" means what you say it means, why did Shem and Japheth walk backwards into the tent to cover Noah? Also, early on it sounded as if you were going to speak about "egregors." Have you ever covered that topic?
It doesn’t mean that. The Bible is not “secretive” about describing incest if it occurs. One example is Lot and his daughters. There’s no ‘hidden message “. The Bible simply describes what occurred. This man has a “sexual “ explanation for almost everything in the Bible and it’s actually a little weird
I've looked into Church Father's writings on the curse of Canaan thing and I haven't heard Fr. Stephens interpretation before. Not saying he's wrong, I just wish people wouldn't assert these things as fact when they are indeed only particular interpretations.
He’s wrong . When incest occurs in the Bible (as with Lot and his daughters)….the Bible is very clear and states the facts. There aren’t any “hidden innuendos “ of “mysterious hidden teachings “ in the Bible. Btw….this man sexualizes almost everything in the Bible in a very disturbing way and in ways that no Church Father has ever described
I haven’t watched the video yet. My father definitely stumbled in life and his stumbling had a huge effect on me. A big concern for me is, how can i address my father’s nakedness without getting cursed. Leaving it unaddressed just feels wrong. I hope this conversation provides some answers
I think it does as you can realize the Protestant idea that it is covering failure is slightly incorrect. You can 'cover' a sin of your Father and still address it's ramifications without running afoul. This is more about usurpation which I doubt you are attempting. The usual interpretation leads to burying wrongs that should likely be addressed circumspectly.
Appreciated this though with passages that are puzzling I either have an insight or bracket it. Like I’m fine if it really just was a material description of what happened and just assumed it was included and passed down to show that Noah was still a sinner but nonetheless God chose him and blessed his lineage by sparing them. Like he was just the best God had lol.
Thank you, Jonathan. This is my first time to your channel. This is one of the best conversations I've listened. I am left with some questions, though, based on Fr. Stephen's explanation of what "Uncovering your father's nakedness" means in regards to Noah. 1. Why would Ham feel the need to tell his brothers what he had done to his mother, assuming it was that he slept with his mother? I'm thinking that he could have mentioned his parent(s) nakedness, to his brothers, without saying what he had done to his mother. 2. Is the assumption that Noah's wife (Ham's mother) might have been drunk as well, making it easy for Ham to take advantage of her? And then, either she told Noah what Ham did to her, or Noah witnessed it, but was unable to protect her because he was drunk and so his actions and ability to make decisions would have been impeded?
I teach the novel The Bluest Eye and this BLEW MY MIND. I have a whole new view as to why Pecola is teased for having a father who sleeps naked; author Toni Morrison, a devout Catholic, set up kind of an inversion of this to demonstrate the powerlessness of her characters. Wowwwwww
49:52 What is "nuclear?" What is a nucleus? The nuclear family is named after the thing which is the central, dynamic part of a larger thing. What needs to be expanded is our understanding of an English word that we use all the time but fail to actually understand.
Michael Heiser talks about this too, how Canaan and all his descendants are cursed because he’s the product of Ham and his own mother whom he took advantage of while Noah was drunk making Canaan an incestuous unholy offspring. And how it’s similar to what Absolom did to David by taking all his concubines and wives to usurp the kingship. Talks about the hair this too, being a fecundity thing. Heiser really was in his scholarship an almost identical analog to Fr Stephen but he was an evangelical which I’ve always thought was strange because almost everything he talked about was Orthodox, not things that evangelicals even believe.
Yeah that comment about not wanting credit for something, it’s natural to initially think that but rewarding that you have inspired someone, but as always don’t be full of pride and stay humble
This is why the discussion & rejection of homosexuality needs to be taken more seriously by traditionalist churches and discussed in the level beyond “the material signifier.” Because same-sex couples often do find a level of “spiritual intimacy” through & beyond physical relations which is authentic to them. Staying on the level of the physical signifier because of hedonists will not win over serious-minded homosexuals. It appears - and is - sex-obsessed, when they’re actually interested in deep, enduring relationships. The people marching in pride parades are fairly easily railed against. My neighbors & friends who are in their 20th & 30th decade of same-sex partnerships through wealth & poverty & wealth aren’t going to appreciate anything that doesn’t honestly deal with that reality.
Maybe I am missing something here but in that last 5 minutes of the talk the idea of spinning around on your own ideas and not bringing in new blood within a team will cause it to suffer. How might this idea be viewed when looking at a monastary? Are the monks going to shatter as well, as johnathan puts it, or am i missing a key element here. I feel I must be missing something because this has not been my experience.
"Christ being the one capable to marry the strange woman" seems tied to the story of Samson, who's marriage to the strange woman played a part in his down fall.
This discussion at 33:59 makes me wonder if there is a connection between the scandal of beginning and the act of creation being an act of cutting or discernment and naming. It seems like a move from the one to the many involves an incestuous connotation because it comes from itself in a way.
What you are describing as a more "ideal" concept of family - that currently exists in Indian society. I think the ancient cultures who still exist show this more expansive idea.
The curse of the fourth son of Ham's third son has to do with the fact that Ham is the second son of Noah, who is the first generation of this new world... It seems to be about marginality and the inability to account for the margin. Noah gets drunk out of his own vine (so basically he's unable to rule his own land, to account for the margin in his own land), and this has the consequence of creating a revolutionary pattern that then spreads as a curse.
Registration for the Symbolic World Summit in Tarpon Springs, Florida, opens TODAY
Date: Feb 29-Mar 2, 2024
Tickets start at $399: thesymbolicworld.com/summit
Quran (only scripture with 100% accuracy/preservation) says Allah is “Al-Ahad”(one/indivisible).Philosophically, It is impossible for 3 distinct perfections to exist simultaneously. Father (Perfection 1/distinct1) =Son (Perfection 2/distinct2)=idolatry.This is due to addition of two extra perfections that are Co-equal/Co-eternal&distinct with Allah(the most Exalted). Not just the Quran, but also the old/New Testament textually establish tauheed(monotheism). So, then why believe in trinity and associate two imaginary parts to Allah(one/indivisible/Self-Sufficient/All-Loving)? How could your love/worship be undivided/exclusive for Allah(the most Exalted) when there are two other equally unique/perfect entities to adore? The verses of bible used by trinitarians are extremely vague and require hard interpretation to extract the understanding that Father/Son/Holy Ghost are Co-equal/Co-Eternal&distinct.
Why Florida though?
"Repentance is being healed of the damage that's been done."
+ Father Stephen De Young
This feels like a classic episode.
I always enjoy Jonathan's conversations with Father Stephen because you can tell that he genuinely respects him. Often you see fathers looking up to Jonathan or asking him for clarification on symbolic and spiritual matters and it can feel a little awkward hierarchically. But with Father Stephen he's always in conversation with an equal, or even a superior, in insight and knowledge. It just feels right.
Dont be mistaken, consider the Holy ones who lived atop columns, and the holy fools like St.Basil who were consulted by even Bishops...
I'm not insinuating Jonathan is a Saint in any way. But you may be mistaking the heirachy of the offices with the Souls who inhabit them... We kiss priests hands not because of _who_ they are but because of *what* they are _perse_
This is my favorite episode so far. It feels like Jonathan finally found somebody to discuss up to the edge of his ability. I feel like most of the times it’s just him trying to make others understand, this one was an actual conversation.
God gives authority to his priests, I guess :)
Please speak with Fr Stephen more. His conversations with Fr Andrew are of course great but it’s so great to see Fr Stephen’s wealth of knowledge meet your wealth of knowledge in this unique way. Glory be to God.
This conversation was just amazingly deep. I’m not Orthodox and I’ve never heard of this explanation of the Ham story and Noah’s drunkenness. And the whole relation to the head covering Scriptures in 1 Corinthians. I’m just awestruck. It was so amazing.
Thank you, Jonathan and Fr. Stephen .
As they say, scripture interprets scripture
Good quality content for sure...cheers to JP
It’s not an Orthodox teaching. He’s correcting the Orthodox
All regular Symbolic World viewers (who haven't already), should begin listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast
also congrats for 200k Jonathan!
What episodes are best to start with? Theres 3 years of content.
@W-G Start at the beginning. It's all great, but they do begin with the fundamentals. Even if you're aware, it's good to have a refresher every once in a while.
The Lord of Spirits and Whole Council of God verse by verse Bible study with Fr Steven has been pivotal in my understanding of God's Word. I thank God for him and his gift of teaching us.
Youd love Dr Heiser's work.
@@prettycatlick4373 I have respect for Dr Heiser and I hope God has mercy on his soul. But his work comes from a Prostatant knowledge background so I feel like its limited to that realm. Fr Stephen's work is from the Church fathers and tradition and once you hear and apply those teachings the Bible becomes complete. Its not theory or I think this is what it means its what the Holy Spirit wanted us to know in completeness. Thats why when I listen to what he says it all snaps together in place.
I hope and pray Father Stephen continues to enrich our lives with more of this knowledge.
The ability to bring life into the world is a power that women possess that needs to be protected!!!
I'm so glad the guest brought up the damage the idea of the nuclear family has done! I'm from a Mexican family so it's actually a foreign idea to how I was brought up and it's seen as a very American idea. My extended family would always go to my grandparents house and even further extended family would have reunions there too but not very often. I see how distant (both physically and socially) many Americans live from their families and it's sad. The other side of my family is like that and I am simply not as close to them because of that (that side of the family is American btw). I usually bring up the "nuclear family" along with the birth control pill as to what started the decay of the family structure in our culture.
NGL Im in the exact same situation except im on the American side. But im really disconnected from my Mexican side of my family now because of the death of my father and the falling out between my mother and my uncle. I really miss being with the Mexican side of my family. But you inspired me to reunite with them even if I have to leave out my mother and brother.
It IS Done....
It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Ireland. One of the characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but they continue to invite him to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. If Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
Matthieu’s video with Jordan should be seen with this one.
To not marry the stranger who’s to far nor to marry too close, but marrying the stranger who loves you. Cosmic patterns revealed at every level 🤔
No WAY i caught a live stream with Jonathan and Fr. Steven D-YUNG. What a chance happening! How serendipitous!
Every time I listen to a Symbolic World discussion my mind is blown. 🤯 I have NEVER heard of this interpretation of Noah's drunkenness and Ham's sin, and now it all makes so much sense! The patterns are there!
this talk was beautiful and clarifying on many dimensions. deep bow
I hope fr. Stephen knows I quote the show without citing them all the time!
They’re observing and describing reality. It’s a shame if people think they can stake a claim on that.
Brilliant
I had heard both the interpretation about the uncovering of Noah and the interpretation of women covering their heads that was discussed here from the late Dr. Heiser several years ago. But i really appreciated how it was fleshed out and discussed here, especially in terms of ongoing patterns in the Bible. thank you both!
R.I.P. Dr. Heiser. His convergence with Fr. Stephen De Young is something to be discovered in This Corner
Its so interesting. I feel so cool when everyone flips out over these thoughts, like, Heiser was yappin about this online way before Lord of Spirits was a thing. Convergence. Fun.
@@prettycatlick4373 Convergence yes...but it's the other way round. The Greek and Ethiopian believers have been versed in this for 2 thousand years. The Russian, Serbian and Romanian believers for nearly 1000 years and of course they all inherited this from the ancient Hebrews which stretch back 4 to 5 thousand years. Father Stephen and Jonathan Pageau are simply translating these ideas into modern english for modern english speaking materialist culture. Fr Stephen even points that out in the video. This is not a knock on Heiser. After all, he managed to reveal these truths through the cacophony of Protestant culture which is, in itself, a miracle.
Mind blown.
It’s also important that he does this while Noah is ‘sleeping’ from ‘drinking’.
Noah goes into a “little death”, where Ham then tries to “steal his inheritance”.
It makes me think too of how YHWH puts Adam into a similar kind of sleep and brings forth new life out of him. This is even in the context of being surrounded by “fruit” of the “vine” (trees and vines/bushes are frequently conflated biblically) from which he is invited to frequently partake, and his commission being as a “tender” of this fruit.
Ham appears to be a twisted inversion of this: seizing what God would have given in his own good time, and resulting curse experienced by his progeny.
Wow, this answered so many questions for me!!! This discussion was so content rich! I listen to the LOS podcast and I'm going through Genesis with Fr. Stephen now on his Whole Counsel of God podcast. He brings out themes and layers that I didn't even learn in Bible College and never knew existed. Listening to Fr. Stephen teach is like panning for gold and striking it rich with each dip in the river of his knowledge.
‘What it requires of us is a complete reversal of what is real.’ There is a reality behind what we think is real.knocking it out of the park, gentlemen!
I appreciate Fr. Stephens point about the nuclear family. It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Derry. One of the recurrent characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but nevertheless they continue to invite him along to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. The truth is that if Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
Man, that was great. Would be great if Fr Stephen and Jonathan had regular conversations.
"....dont go to the 'strange woman'....". Well said, & quoted JP
Great content!
I've heard about this concept before on Dr. Heiser's podcast (Naked Bible: Episode 159). It makes all the sense in the world, fits so many pieces into the puzzle, and I'm so thankful that Fr. Stephen is on the same track. ❤️🔥
What an epic duo.
This is great! First time I saw this explanation was from Michael Heiser in the Naked Bible Podcast episode 159
As soon as I saw the show name and guest I knew it would be something special!
I first was introduce to the topic of usurpation through the late great Dr. Michael Heiser. Definitely an eye opener. Great conversation gentleman!
Man, this was an amazing discussion. I know I've said this on other videos, but this is the exact type of thing I follow this channel for. These seemingly insignificant or obscure things that open an entirely new realm of understanding. I love it.
I was raised in crazy evangelical cults, went militantly atheist for a while, delved into occult/esoteric/satanic whatever you want to call it stuff for years...but all the while I had these Bible stories lodged in my brain, in my heart I guess, that I had no idea what to do with, but I KNEW held meaning and truth beyond the mundane, materialistic way they were taught to me. I guess that's my weird, convoluted way to say thank you. Seriously, thank you. There really aren't enough or adequate words to describe how much this channel has helped me. It's been a life saver.
ps
If I can ever get Sundays off work, I'm going to start attending our local Orthodox temple. I don't know if I have it in me to fully convert or whatever, I really don't know. I just know its been steady on my mind for years now and I'm trying to get my boss to change my schedule.
Depending on the size if the Orthodox church, they may have Saturday evening services (the evening part of the daily service that finishes with liturgy Sunday morning) or occasional weekday services for specific feasts, in case that works with your schedule
@@carolinef9886 I'm definitely going to try to hit some of the holiday services if my schedule isn't changed by then. But I'm pushing for Sunday/Monday off, cuz I've been working weekends my whole life.
As Jonathan says: "go to church"
@@RodrigoMera Definitely gonna happen when I get my schedule sorted.
This is my first time attend lacture on your Digital Platform but I so influence of your language as word used in this lecture very impressive if any kind of school going by or study a higher to understand one required sone knowledge of English words, I want tell at public domin accepted in India not working a on this week ness now I am attend your lacture continuously one in a day. Thanks for spreading a good knowledge in the video. Again thanks
Listening to you two cover the idea of the "not too close, not too far" makes me realise why early church fathers appreciated Aristotle so much, with his Mean and all that.
Thanks
In Vedic religion, man came from the incestuous relationship of Yama, the god of death, and his sister, Yami. In the Upanishads, one of the 3 origin myths speaks about how Prajapati, the supreme creator deity, had sex with his own daughter, for which the other gods had him killed. From the seed that fell to the ground - man came forth. This correlates perfectly with what you say about the pattern of incest as the "scandal of the beginning".
All conjecture about the unknowable.
I see your Dr.MSH and I raise you Fr.DeYoung. lol, awesome discussion. Wonderful pattern building thread. Thank you Pageau.
This whole conversation BLEW my mind! Incredible..thank you.🙏🔑💡
This view of Noah's nakedness was argued by Bergsma and Hahn in their 2005 JBL article, "Noah's Nakedness And The Curse of Canaan (GENESIS 9:20-27)"
Wow, this conversation was gold! Thank you! ☦️
This is also integrating what I learned in seminary when I was studying for my Masters in Theology. Not in conflict with what I learned but rather ties together and deepens what I learned. 2nd time listening.🙏 Thank you!!
college/university is DED.....
Thank you for the discussion! The balance of the strange and the familiar has been an area of contention for me for a long time. This video brought much clarity to me!
11:23 performative contradiction. Great description.
Excellent conversation.
Fr Thomas Hopko had a very interesting commentary about this topic on his podcast speaking the truth in love.
After reading Dr. Scott Hahn's "A Father WHo Keeps His Promises," I came away with the feeling that God was a serial failure. Every time he tried something, it didn't work.
Somewhere in this episode, one of you mentioned how Christ resolves tensions and conflicts that are highlighted in the Hebrew scriptures. That seemed like an interesting approach. E.g., yes, everything fails in the OT, but Christ is able to pull together all the loose ends and tie it all together. This would follow along with the concept of Christ being the answer to the entire law.
Two of my favorite people
Excellent discussion, thank you!
The other other teacher I've heard teach the truth about the hair is the late Dr. Michael Heiser. Good job!
I didn't hear you connect the Noah/Ham episode with Leviticus teaching on exposing the Father's nakedness.
Correct
Ok, this whole conversation is mind blowing.
It's funny how perfectly this answers my concerns from the last video. Blessings.
Was rewatching the previous podcasts with Father Stephen De Young yesterday and was itching for a new one.
Loved this wise exchange.
Laban sought to keep Jacob in a perpetual loop, which is similar to how Pharoah kept Israel. The pattern of enslaving God’s bride is fascinating.
Great talk - thank you! 🙏🙏
This was fantastic 🙂
WoWoW...so interesting..
And truly enjoyable how it was presented...I am in awe...I am also thankful that it was taught in a manner that I could understand all of it...the flow and depth of the conversation kept me interested...and I feel a bit illuminated....well...alot
Excellent, and extremely helpful.
More of these, as time permits of course, would be likely prove helpful. Certainly in my case.
1:00:14 Miroslav Volf does a great job of unpacking the tension between belonging and distance, and how this plays into both group and individual identity, in _Exclusion and Embrace_. Highly recommended reading for a fuller treatment of that issue!
1:01:00 This was a really excellent parallel. It really helped me to understand the principle that was being explored in this video.
Check out “Exclusion and Embrace” by Miroslav Volf. Chapter 2 is all about the need for both distance and belonging. Excellent unpacking of this concept!
It's a great topic. ❤ The Scripture is working on our hearts and minds. I learned some new things from Fr. Stephen.
Very good title Jonathan 😆😆
Compensating (covering) for the father’s deficiencies (nakedness) shows up a few times in scripture (like Tobias healing his father Tobit’s blindness) - also appears in the holy grail story re: redeeming the maimed king (who’s Galahad’s ancestor)
Seems like Orthodox Christianity is the answer in many ways for us in the deep west, but as he says because of internet this is first time many of us are hearing of the deep history, wisdom and knowledge Orthodox holds. Catholicism has a few strange things when you start to understand Orthodox perspective.
When I became a Christian and was looking into different kinds of churches, eventually Roman Catholicism caught my eye, but I learned some basic history, found Orthodoxy and then dropped all interest in the RCC immediately.. The more I learn the more I understand I made the right decision in all of that 😆
I feel the same way, I was raised a catholic, didnt know anything about it or other denominations, turned away from church at 14 to about 24 and now looking into going to closest Orthodox church here in NZD after learning a lot about Christianity. Orthodox just makes sense to me. @@abigail5484
Like what kind of strange thing? I'm pretty sure all of this symbolic understanding is totally available in Catholicism if you dig a little bit. In fact, listening to Pageau made me return to Catholicism (I stopped attending mass since I was a kid) and I feel right at home where I am now.
What are the strange things? Genuinely curious what you mean.
Hello Jonathan. I'm not Orthodox but I really appreciate your work and really enjoyed this interview. I actually share the views put forward here on Ham's sin and the "head covering" referenced by Paul. I would love to hear your thoughts on the incest/usurpation theme in Hamlet (although I know you are more of a Medieval guy) and also how the woman's hair as sexual symbol factors into Rapunzel. Her hair kind of seems to relate to the idea of fertility and the "forbidden fruit" motif of her parents eating from Mother Gothel's garden. Anyhow, thanks for sharing good, thoughtful Christian content. God bless you.
How beautiful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much better is your love than wine, And the fragrance of your oils Than all kinds of spices!
Song of Solomon 4:10
I thought this verse was appropriate when talking about Christ and Him having a sister and bride.
Wow, I have some review of Genesis to do.
Man. I really wanted to hear Jonathan say "Satan wants to make you his bitch!" lol... he's too ethical for that so I won't mention it either. This really does make it quite clear to us to whom we should follow. This is why the gravest sin is Betrayal.
Your video thumbnails have been great lately btw
There’s the visual image of Fr, Stephen that I have concocted - listening to 100s hrs of Whole Counsel etc - so seeing him ‘in the flesh’ is super weird.
On the trope of getting drunk before sin, I hoped you'd bring in Jesus' use of wine at cana/last supper to transform that pattern.
Please consider interviewing John Michael Boyer on Byzantine chant. He just released his new book on the topic.
m.ruclips.net/video/mQNc64PIRhc/видео.html
This was a fascinating conversation, but if "uncovering the nakedness of your father" means what you say it means, why did Shem and Japheth walk backwards into the tent to cover Noah?
Also, early on it sounded as if you were going to speak about "egregors." Have you ever covered that topic?
It doesn’t mean that. The Bible is not “secretive” about describing incest if it occurs. One example is Lot and his daughters. There’s no ‘hidden message “. The Bible simply describes what occurred. This man has a “sexual “ explanation for almost everything in the Bible and it’s actually a little weird
I've looked into Church Father's writings on the curse of Canaan thing and I haven't heard Fr. Stephens interpretation before. Not saying he's wrong, I just wish people wouldn't assert these things as fact when they are indeed only particular interpretations.
“Fact”
He’s wrong . When incest occurs in the Bible (as with Lot and his daughters)….the Bible is very clear and states the facts. There aren’t any “hidden innuendos “ of “mysterious hidden teachings “ in the Bible. Btw….this man sexualizes almost everything in the Bible in a very disturbing way and in ways that no Church Father has ever described
I haven’t watched the video yet. My father definitely stumbled in life and his stumbling had a huge effect on me. A big concern for me is, how can i address my father’s nakedness without getting cursed. Leaving it unaddressed just feels wrong. I hope this conversation provides some answers
Shoulda watched it first
I think it does as you can realize the Protestant idea that it is covering failure is slightly incorrect. You can 'cover' a sin of your Father and still address it's ramifications without running afoul. This is more about usurpation which I doubt you are attempting. The usual interpretation leads to burying wrongs that should likely be addressed circumspectly.
@@TheFeralcatz LMAO FRRR
@@user-vf7gp1hr9c I love learning about the Bible :)) Thank you
Appreciated this though with passages that are puzzling I either have an insight or bracket it. Like I’m fine if it really just was a material description of what happened and just assumed it was included and passed down to show that Noah was still a sinner but nonetheless God chose him and blessed his lineage by sparing them. Like he was just the best God had lol.
Thank you, Jonathan. This is my first time to your channel. This is one of the best conversations I've listened. I am left with some questions, though, based on Fr. Stephen's explanation of what "Uncovering your father's nakedness" means in regards to Noah.
1. Why would Ham feel the need to tell his brothers what he had done to his mother, assuming it was that he slept with his mother? I'm thinking that he could have mentioned his parent(s) nakedness, to his brothers, without saying what he had done to his mother.
2. Is the assumption that Noah's wife (Ham's mother) might have been drunk as well, making it easy for Ham to take advantage of her? And then, either she told Noah what Ham did to her, or Noah witnessed it, but was unable to protect her because he was drunk and so his actions and ability to make decisions would have been impeded?
I teach the novel The Bluest Eye and this BLEW MY MIND. I have a whole new view as to why Pecola is teased for having a father who sleeps naked; author Toni Morrison, a devout Catholic, set up kind of an inversion of this to demonstrate the powerlessness of her characters. Wowwwwww
49:52 What is "nuclear?" What is a nucleus? The nuclear family is named after the thing which is the central, dynamic part of a larger thing. What needs to be expanded is our understanding of an English word that we use all the time but fail to actually understand.
Michael Heiser talks about this too, how Canaan and all his descendants are cursed because he’s the product of Ham and his own mother whom he took advantage of while Noah was drunk making Canaan an incestuous unholy offspring. And how it’s similar to what Absolom did to David by taking all his concubines and wives to usurp the kingship. Talks about the hair this too, being a fecundity thing. Heiser really was in his scholarship an almost identical analog to Fr Stephen but he was an evangelical which I’ve always thought was strange because almost everything he talked about was Orthodox, not things that evangelicals even believe.
Yeah that comment about not wanting credit for something, it’s natural to initially think that but rewarding that you have inspired someone, but as always don’t be full of pride and stay humble
This is why the discussion & rejection of homosexuality needs to be taken more seriously by traditionalist churches and discussed in the level beyond “the material signifier.” Because same-sex couples often do find a level of “spiritual intimacy” through & beyond physical relations which is authentic to them. Staying on the level of the physical signifier because of hedonists will not win over serious-minded homosexuals. It appears - and is - sex-obsessed, when they’re actually interested in deep, enduring relationships. The people marching in pride parades are fairly easily railed against. My neighbors & friends who are in their 20th & 30th decade of same-sex partnerships through wealth & poverty & wealth aren’t going to appreciate anything that doesn’t honestly deal with that reality.
Maybe I am missing something here but in that last 5 minutes of the talk the idea of spinning around on your own ideas and not bringing in new blood within a team will cause it to suffer. How might this idea be viewed when looking at a monastary? Are the monks going to shatter as well, as johnathan puts it, or am i missing a key element here. I feel I must be missing something because this has not been my experience.
47:09 “….move us into its center…”
Anyone know if Jonathan and co (deep thinking schooled Orthodox) know if he had discussed the “role of women” in the church?
God, Jesus, Father/Man, Mother/Wo_man, children, pets/animals ~~~ perfect/spiritual /natural order
If the firstborn son inherits everything, why does a younger son having a child with the mother make that child into the heir?
51:43 Obligatory Fr De Young monosyllabic response
Can someone help me understand how to draw the same conclusions about what Ham did and who Canaan's mother is from the text?
"Christ being the one capable to marry the strange woman" seems tied to the story of Samson, who's marriage to the strange woman played a part in his down fall.
?? Ever check out Rudolf Steiners writings?? Quite deep/interesting wisdom....
Unfortunately, Steiner claims "spiritual science " is needed to understand the gospel! Which is blasphemy.
Isn't the story of Kronos castrating Oronas another ver. Of Noah & Ham?
Interesting question!
It strikes me as an American hearing an Orthodox Father speaking American English. Orthodoxy doesn’t seem so foreign. So distant.
This discussion at 33:59 makes me wonder if there is a connection between the scandal of beginning and the act of creation being an act of cutting or discernment and naming. It seems like a move from the one to the many involves an incestuous connotation because it comes from itself in a way.
What about the lady version?: Lot's daughters getting Lot drunk and getting preggos?
I guess my question got answered near the end of the talk.
The devil is trying to make creation his wife. Brilliant.
When are you talking to Jay Dyer again?
What you are describing as a more "ideal" concept of family - that currently exists in Indian society. I think the ancient cultures who still exist show this more expansive idea.
Extended Mexican families are also a big thing, although not anymore in big cities.
The curse of the fourth son of Ham's third son has to do with the fact that Ham is the second son of Noah, who is the first generation of this new world... It seems to be about marginality and the inability to account for the margin. Noah gets drunk out of his own vine (so basically he's unable to rule his own land, to account for the margin in his own land), and this has the consequence of creating a revolutionary pattern that then spreads as a curse.