Sign up for Annie’s course on the C.S. Lewis Ransom Trilogy. If you sign up now you will get the recordings of the first 10 lessons. The remaining 5 lessons on That Hideous Strength will be every Friday at 3pm CST / 4pm EST: the-symbolic-world.circle.so/checkout/cs-lewis-trilogy
I thought Lewis really understood female psychology. It helped me understand myself (as a woman) and certain pitfalls in my thinking. The Woman in Perelandra was helpful in a general way, but Jane in That Hideous Strength really resonated with me. I learned to let God make me in HIS image, not necessarily the way I thought of myself, much like Jane. I never found him misogynistic. I always felt he "got it." God bless that man!
She seems to have a great affinity for coherence while Jonathan leaves more room for the _strange attractor_ . Maybe a bit of inversion of M/F stereotypes?
I think I literally fell in love with the Woman in Perelandra. Such an amazing character. I also loved Jane's character and it made me take a hard look at my own marriage. (spoilers for end of third book) The way Mark, right before he is about to reunite with Jane, realizes he's been a "course, male boor with horny hands and hob-nailed shoes...blundering, sauntering, stumping in where great lovers, knights and poets would have feared to tread." oof, right in the gut...
The part where she speaks of Old Solar as pure symbolic language reminds me of what I read somewhere about Tolkien. The writer said Tolkien was so immersed in so many languages that he lives in language itself, not just English or Norse or French but in ‘language’
@@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026in my own intimation, I see it as he lived in language ie a realm where symbolic patterns and parts correlate and interconnect to create a comprehensible meaning, not just within their own structure but with older, newer and parallel structures. And he eventually started to view the whole world and his own life in that same perspective. Eventually seeing all things as "letters" or "words" (people or groups) that create a cohesive reality (a language) that you can understand, interpret and meet others on common ground with. Atleast that's my ultra simple take😂 please feel free to correct me if someone disagrees
Reading perelandra is the most profound purely reading experience of my life. The only thing that compares in my own experiences in its profundity is the fullness of the liturgy in those times and places when I’ve really felt the presence of the angels and saints shouting unending choruses of praise.
Fr Thomas Hopko of blessed memory was talking about how relevant this was 15+ years ago, in terms of The Abolition of Man - which is a really difficult read, and tells the same story as the That Hideous Strength in essay form. Lewis was seeing all this in the works as early as the late 30s and early 40s. It's interesting that he had that particular intuition so early on.
I began watching this discussion and immediately stopped when Jonathan gave the spoiler alert regarding the 'Space Trilogy'(thanks for the heads up). I went back and listened to the trilogy on audiobook, and I'm so glad I did! What a fantastic story! Now, I'm back to finish the video... Thanks for making this video and for the insightful discussion! Good stuff!
(spoilers) I just finished the trilogy myself. CS Lewis is a master of many things but three that stuck out to me were: 1) his ability to describe the subtle thought processes behind his characters (especially the dynamics between Jane and Mark). 2) his descriptions of Malacandra and Perelandra as unfallen worlds. To be honest I couldn't really fathom the idea of an unfallen world until I read those books, and they've really sparked a deep thirst for heaven. 3) The idea that the greatest thing in the universe would be to gaze upon the face of God was lost on me. It sounded like abstract or esoteric fluff that Christians would spout but not really mean in their hearts. The way Lewis describes the King and Queen, and Ransom in the third book really helped me understand, in some deep sense that I lack the words for, the significance of gazing upon the face of God.
Seems like it has finally started dear jonathan Ur videos have been a great source of education and spiritual joy for me past few months Thank u and god bless u for that Stay safe brother And my praise to you for what you have done Genius Both of you And from some of your articulations Mental giant you are Amidst us chimps albeit😅❤
I just finished all three of these books, they are all audiobooks on RUclips with some really great readers for those who drive a lot or what ever Just really great stories, there was likely a million things I missed and seeing this conversation pop up today is really cool but yeah, great books
Ive never heard it called the Ransom Trilogy. Always called it the Space Trilogy. That Hideous Strength is such a insightful description of "progressives"
Space Trilogy seems to be a name given by people who didn't even make it out of the silent planet. As soon as they are cruising through the cosmos, there's a big long rant about how calling it 'space' is so dumb...
I've been reading Lewis with great love and admiration for him since I was Twenty. I'm now fifty-four and I'm now reading the Ransom Triology. What great timing. :-)
I know I'm late to this, but. . . I've always loved C.S Lewis--I actually read the first two books when I was about 11 years old (I'm a highschooler by the way). I recently finished "Till We Have Faces" and it's SO deep. Would love to get an analysis of it. That "inversion/flipping" symbolism about the order of the books and Dante' Divine Comedy. . . So fascinating. It's funny, I have the same icon of St. Thomas Aquinas that Annie does on the right. Anyways. As it goes in The Last Battle: further up and further in. . .
My mind explodes at the thought of the waters above mix and settle, and ultimately become the waters below. If you’ve ever experienced God and have turned away, wow, this will get you. The fractal symbolic-pattern is truly endless- the blessing that can become a curse, first sweet and then bitter.
You know Monks were saying there will be time when they say rock is wet and water is dry. People who say right is wrong and wrong is right. I was like who would believe that but know I see it with my own eyes .
57:08 Well, Santa Claus appears in Narnia to give the kids weapons. So, noooo, Merlin appearing in That Hideous Strength didn't seem all that weird by comparison.
Michael Ward in his book 'Planet Narnia' writes about how every volume of the series revolves around one of the planets of the solar system 'The lion, the witch and the wardrobe' embodies and expresses the planet Jupiter ( magnanimity, festal joy, summertime ). The planet Jupiter itself has a big, red spot ( Santa? )
@@sihollett That's just olde-timey Santa Claus. Everything before World War 1 was a weird primitive version of its modern self. Pharmacies sold cocaine back then and were called chemists, so most things had names we wouldn't recognize these days.
@@jerrysstories711 Santa Claus is old-timey Santa Claus. Father Christmas was an different character with a different symbolic purpose/symbology who had his looks (and name) taken by Santa, but very little of his symbology survives. Lewis put jovial Father Christmas in his Jupiter book
@@sihollett Nah, the modern forms of most things are patchworks of a bunch of old stuff. The Wikipedia page on Santa Claus can give you the references, but modern dictionaries give Father Christmas, Santa Claus, St Nick names for the same character. I know CSL was born ages ago, but modern audience would call that character Santa Claus. Just like we call Y'shua by Jesus now.
Andrew MacPhee. Ransom wants him there specifically because he's not a believer, IIRC (been a few years since I read it too, but I looked up the name), as the sceptic plays an important role.
“God always forgives, we men forgive sometimes, but nature never forgives. If you give her a slap, she will give you one. I believe that we have exploited nature too much.” Pope Francis Reading this through supernatural charitable lenses, Pope Francis is pointing at the very fact that we can't bend the nature of reality without getting hit back in the same proportion qe distort it.
Unsure if this relates properly to your discussion on "speed" but from Dante's encounter of God: But already my desire and my will were being turned like a wheel, all at one speed, by the Love which moves the sun and the other stars.
Not sure but the idea of original unity reminds me of one that is linked to the Zohar and its explanation of creation. If I make sense to anyone I'd appreciate some clarity.
This was absolutely amazing. I've listened to That Hideous Strength from the original BBC reading about 3 times in my life. (I read The Great Divorce once a year- advice from my father when I was in my early 20s- and it's become a tradition) And my favorite work of Lewis is The Problem of Pain. That being said. The parallels between what I hear from atheists that have spoken to Jonathan directly and the evil group in Strength is clear. That is why I hesitate when we talk about an "evolution" of religion. Yes, there was one, but the God of Abraham is clearly "other" and not from a human evolution at all. In Strength, Lewis modeled his evil group after the cliques in academia but I think it's deeper than that. Whenever man tries to create some god (collective ethics, a power that everyone centers around, some predetermined set of rules, etc) is ALWAYS has a demon behind it. Always. So when those atheists talk about trying to reform the LOGOs, as Jonathan very rightly calls it, to fit this weird new moral idea of "acceptance", it will destroy itself. It's literally a group worshiping a dead head. A dead mind. A twisted version of the Frankenstein monster.
Someone who has lost a limb/or a function such as sight can participate on a higher level by transmuting that loss into going deeper via the other senses. That is what people on the margin want recognised. Be better with your language - yes, it can be a monster category but it is also the king or monk’s category. Recognise that beauty deeply and celebrate it and then perhaps those on the margin wouldn’t push so hard to be recognised and validated. There’s a difference between pity and empathy.
"And lost be the day to us in which a measure hath not been danced. And false be every truth which hath not had laughter along with it!"-Nietzsche We must see the difference between life giving laughter and the laughter of madness, like that of Nietzsche.
I've always understood that Lewis's use of e.g. Mars and Venus was astrological rather than Pagan. When you look at the Middle Ages, it's surprising how much Christians accepted and used astrology.
Astrology is very much a thing even among Moderns - Carl Sagan's 'Pale Blue Dot' is a popular piece of astrology: looking at the stars and inferring meaning for us. It's a very different kind of astrology to both the pagan/pomo Zodiac, and the astrology that the medievals/Lewis talk about.
I remember in Perelandra the idea of animals becoming like sapient life, and sapient life becoming like angels, etc. So I think that fits well with the idea of speeding ever more with God. Plus, what is the ultimate hell in Dante but being ever more frozen. Still.
Your point on how the demons are playing a role that is ultimately in service of God rings very true to me. Demons played a critical role in my addiction recovery.
"Yin and yang, male and female, strong and weak, rigid and tender, heaven and earth, light and darkness, thunder and lightning, cold and warmth, good and evil...the interplay of opposite principles constitutes the universe." ~ Confucius
As far as Merlin is concerned, I think that it goes back to to what Lewis says in the Abolition of Man that science and magic are genealogical brothers, both born out of a desire to subject nature to the will of man. That’s why at the beginning we aren’t sure which side of the fight he’s going to come down on. Then we come to see that Merlin aligns his interactions with nature with the higher order of God and spirituality. So, Merlin represents the natural consequences of what happens when you approach science detatched from the tao. (Generally speaking, Lewis said that Hideous Strength was written to embody some of the things that he was talking about in the Abolition of Man.)
I forget where I read it, but someone said that priests are called Father because although they are celibate, their role mirrors the fatherhood of God, and they are called to exercise a very strong role of father to their flock. In fact, was it Taylor Marshall who said that?!
I've often thought that our society's fixation on gender is something like a culture-level childhood rebellion against what appears to be arbitrary authority. I believe foucalt and nietzsche talk about this when they say that the catholic church set a hegemony. Maybe that hegemony was justified once and maybe it wasn't.. maybe a people gets the divine authority it deserves? Regardless, that hegemony because unjustifiable by the standards of the enlightenment, and some people feel inclined to rebel against its ghost, mostly in actions rather than articulation. I like the idea of setting up a heirarchy of pagan symbols, ranging from something like God to Satan. The catholic church definitely got a little too high on it's own supply, and I struggle to imagine what a constantly fragmenting protestant congregation would do to avoid the extremes of fragmentation and total control. There's also the problem of a monotheist defining what's supposed to be an irreducible and singular God only in reference to polytheistic forces. Many less sophisticated Christians fall into the trap of "anything I don't agree with is a demon." As Jung said, the Psyche is pagan and the Soul is Catholic. While I think this task is too much of an undertaking for any organization or person, I do think it's the answer to our moment of cultural crisis.
Just on the whole childhood rebellion, I do think that schools used to be the first authority for kids and many catholic schools had the hitting of children to make them behave for discipline, and then over time it became taboo, and reversed so teachers could not punish students anymore, and now the pendulum has swung so far adults have no authority and now adults are disciplined if they do not go along with imaginary thinking
Merlin seems a Moses figure to me and the conclusion on THS is Genesis in reverse, back through the flood and the gather/ dispersing of the animals back to the unity of the Garden. My wife and I just finished That Hideous Strength a couple days ago (my fourth reading in the last few years, her first). She hated it. Oh well.
In the Simarillion (Tolkien) - Ilúvatar (God) says to Melkor (would be like the Lucifer) that no matter what he does, at the end everything will be at service of the highest. Just as Jonathan said in the last part of the conversation about Merlin.
So happy to see That Hideous Strength getting attention. It's a borderline prophetic text given recent events. Interesting to hear Pageau wrestling more with Lewis' portrayal of angels as beings beyond the 3rd dimension. On the one hand, visions of the heavenly realm seem to be rendered spatially, at least once someone even measures the dimensions of objects using human units in the vision. On the other hand, there is great danger in making any scientific hypothesis out of heavenly beings, we are warned not to put God to the test (experiment). I see this in much the same way as evolution: I don't "believe in evolution," but if the way that God made man in his present state was partially through a process which looks like "natural selection," then who am I to argue? The specifics aren't given to us by the text, but the true meaning is, which is more important. If primates did or didn't descend from a common ancestor, our faith in God should not be shaken. If visions of the heavenly realm represent a reality which exists "hyperspatially," then that would make a lot of sense. I know Jonathan is very intelligent, but I wonder if he understands how truly foreign hyperspaces are to us with 3-dimensional bodies, or how incredibly beyond us even a 4th dimensional creature would be. I know readers' hackles are going up now thinking of HP Lovecraft and Dr Strange, but these stories make a low-resolution cartoon of these physics principles. Either way, our understanding is limited, and any mortal model of higher things is incorrect in an absolute sense. Focusing on the constituent elements of an angel's body is like trying to eat the rind of an orange. There are probably higher spatial dimensions, the "matter" which may or may not exist along these axes would be so foreign to us that we would not call it matter. It's a heaven-shaped hole in our postmodern cosmology, but then Outer Space was a heaven-shaped hole in modern cosmology, and look how that turned out.
I dont know how i feel about having Monks as a potential example for a 3rd gender. The whole point of celibacy is that of the tempering and taming of Hers or His natural impulses, for the sake of the Kingdom. Meaning that labor can only occur as long as the default gender is there to be wrestled with on the first place.
Why does Pageau never speak to anyone who can question and challenge him in his own area of expertise? (And I mean challenger in the best sense of the word- to get to a deeper understanding). For example, Mark Vernon is a scholar of Owen Barfield and an obvious person. But Pageau seems to just speak to people who just validate his current understanding /comfort zone of understanding. Or who he feels superior to, even. If he’s sincere and truly confident in his take on things, there would be more engaging with others as I mentioned ….
On the issue of gender, I disagree. The idea of masculine and feminine come from biology. If we were spiders feminine would mean something completely different. It’s only because men tend to be more dominant in our species that we personify control as male and most other attributes we give to the father.
CS Lewis Preface to The Great Divorce: "I beg readers to remember that this is a fantasy. It has of course-or I intended it to have-a moral. But the trans-mortal conditions are solely an imaginative supposal: they are not even a guess or a speculation at what may actually await us. The last thing I wish is to arouse factual curiosity about the details of the after-world."
My question is how does all this information help anyone, other than traveling around and giving lectures to academic types how does any of this help the common man because to me it seems like just a bunch of puffed up words and back patting. For this channel to be so “christian” focused the actual teachings and examples set by Jesus seem to be absent yet those teachings and examples really do save the world.
Something else interesting in That Hideous Strength is how Lewis links Atlantis with Numenor, linking his story with Tolkien’s legend. He explicitly makes thus connection in the book’s introduction. Ransom can be understood as a type for Tolkien, “the philologist.” The Space Trilogy is not as deftly written as Narnia was. You can see Lewis develop as a writer over the three books. The third is definitely the best, yet not as good as any of the Narnia series. One of the reasons Tolkien and Lewis grew apart eventually was over Tolkien’s criticism of Lewis melding pagan themes into his stories, clouding them. Lewis had the maenads and Bacchus show up repeatedly in Narnia.. That’s incoherent at best in a Christian context. That Lucy is met by a faun, a representation of Bacchus or Pan himself, when first entering Narnia, and then is taken to his home where she is drugged and almost abducted.. Well. It’s a bit provocative, pushing the border of obscenity, questionable to say the least.
Having ego "people don't understand" while discussing best guesses about other's best guesses regarding things that are, for know, unknowable is an interesting but uninviting take.
Here's a rabbit hole for miracles: Consider, that we can calculate exactly the possibility that the mass of the Moon will quantum-mechanically tunnel from its current orbit, to an orbit on the opposite side of planet Earth. The number is very small, but _it is not zero._ In a universe of sufficient extent (in terms of number of moons and duration), it will happen. Consider then the miracles of Jesus and the age of the universe -- the universe _must be at least old enough and of sufficient extent_ to render the possibility of those miracles a probability instead.
I don't think the issue is just that people don't fit duilaity. It's that we don't like when people represent that duality as a whole in themselves. Like we think intersex people are wrong because they don't represent just one side. But if everything is representative of God and his duality, does that mean those who are dual in nature are just a more intimate rendition of his nature? Mind you I'm not talking about trans people. I'm talking about biological inter sex people. People who have both parts in some way or another and were born that way. I'm just curious how that fits? Flannery O conner used a intersex person as a Christ figure in one of her short stories and I wonder if that's what she was tapping into.
I think the phenomena you refer to as "intersex" would have been understood as the multitude below, or more as chimera, than divine. Those who transcend the duality do not represent this transcendence as the mixture of traits within themselves, but rather as a transcendence from these limited traits altogether. This is not a function of the body but the spirit.
@@OrchinX I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Aren't chimeras a forcefully made mixture that isn't natural? A false duality that was forced? Intersex people were born with both parts they're not a forced duality. And I believe the body represents the soul. After all that's what Pope John Paul taught in the theology of the body. Our body and soul are integrated far more then we realize. I don't think intersex people are outside of the original binary of duality. I think they're just a new version of the fractal. Another way that the duality presents itself. It has nothing to do with transcendence of the soul. Because the soul can not transcend without a body. That's just not possible. If we could get to heaven without a body God wouldn't of given us one.
@@Ladyoffidelity14 People are born with all sorts of disabilities and illnesses because we live in a fallen world. In the next life people who are saved will have a transformed body, not the exact same body as in this life.
@@crystallogic2543 but that disability is still part of God's design for sanctification for that person. And that would mean it's still part of God's natural order, right? Disablities are also not always bad, some mutations have a lot of advantages when the person is placed in the right nitch. That's where I guess I'm confused about a lot of this?
@@Ladyoffidelity14 John 9 and Pageau's Pentecost for a Zombie Apocalypse speech relate to this. Definitely God can turn bad into good. And people who aren't able to sexually fulfill a marriage can either dedicate themselves to God and others in a greater manner, or perhaps together in a abnormal marriage? But it takes striving for God as the highest and work to make the multitude of individual situations work out. And we shouldn't idolize the exceptions as is the sin of our age.
What I have done for you can not be paid with enough gold. I am a poet that writes prose to be understood better, all my work is poetry. It is necessary that everything I say is understood. Emergency, lives are being lost while i am talking and the greatest knowledge of all time is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Future generations would understand the atheist logical fallacy, so why don't you? If you understand you would know what i expect from you if something happens to me and I die. I am suffering the most severe and devastating censorship in history in a social media era for many years trying to save lives with knowledge, and when they are told they don't care. I hope for God's sake to be understood. To end the war in Ukraine the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy has to be news. To overcome a censorship the information that is prohibited has to be shared to be known. You choose. Life is a choice. Life is free will, free will is an uncaused cause of an infinite nature, God.
Sign up for Annie’s course on the C.S. Lewis Ransom Trilogy. If you sign up now you will get the recordings of the first 10 lessons. The remaining 5 lessons on That Hideous Strength will be every Friday at 3pm CST / 4pm EST: the-symbolic-world.circle.so/checkout/cs-lewis-trilogy
When will the Orthodox create an audio version of St. Maximum the confessor’s work in English.
This conversation requires the "symbolic world" paradigm more than most. It's absolutely spot on. It's also not for everybody.
she is definitely up on the "symbolic world" style of interior decorating
Fr. Brown!
I really enjoyed this conversation. Lol
@@chrisc7265it looks like it could be another part of the same room
C. S. Lewis "That Hideous Strength". Amazing that it was written so long ago. Lewis' prophetic voice on display for all to see.
I thought Lewis really understood female psychology. It helped me understand myself (as a woman) and certain pitfalls in my thinking. The Woman in Perelandra was helpful in a general way, but Jane in That Hideous Strength really resonated with me. I learned to let God make me in HIS image, not necessarily the way I thought of myself, much like Jane.
I never found him misogynistic. I always felt he "got it." God bless that man!
She seems to have a great affinity for coherence while Jonathan leaves more room for the _strange attractor_ . Maybe a bit of inversion of M/F stereotypes?
I think I literally fell in love with the Woman in Perelandra. Such an amazing character. I also loved Jane's character and it made me take a hard look at my own marriage.
(spoilers for end of third book)
The way Mark, right before he is about to reunite with Jane, realizes he's been a "course, male boor with horny hands and hob-nailed shoes...blundering, sauntering, stumping in where great lovers, knights and poets would have feared to tread."
oof, right in the gut...
Well put! I've enjoyed his female characters; they provide food for thought, personal reflection.
and also in till we have faces, he literally know women more than we thought haha
Oh my goodness, I am so glad to hear Jonathan discussing the space trilogy! SUCH a perfect and important subject!
The part where she speaks of Old Solar as pure symbolic language reminds me of what I read somewhere about Tolkien. The writer said Tolkien was so immersed in so many languages that he lives in language itself, not just English or Norse or French but in ‘language’
Can you describe what he meant any further, please?
@@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026in my own intimation, I see it as he lived in language ie a realm where symbolic patterns and parts correlate and interconnect to create a comprehensible meaning, not just within their own structure but with older, newer and parallel structures. And he eventually started to view the whole world and his own life in that same perspective. Eventually seeing all things as "letters" or "words" (people or groups) that create a cohesive reality (a language) that you can understand, interpret and meet others on common ground with. Atleast that's my ultra simple take😂 please feel free to correct me if someone disagrees
Reading perelandra is the most profound purely reading experience of my life. The only thing that compares in my own experiences in its profundity is the fullness of the liturgy in those times and places when I’ve really felt the presence of the angels and saints shouting unending choruses of praise.
I had the same experience. Reading Perelandra wasn't just a read, it was an experience.
The unity of everything with God, and the imagery of God's glory in the deer-like creature...very mystical.
It is the most beautiful and the most terrifying book I've ever read.
Johathan, you HAVE to read Till We Have Faces by C.S Lewis. It's his best work by his own admission and Tolkien’s
Incredible work, just read it last month. Although, I hesitate to say it is His best book. Why did he and Tolkien say it was his best?
I introduced high school students to my favourite C..S. Lewis, 'That Hideous Strength', just before Covid and lockdowns.
NICE (from That Hideous Strength) is a good model for a potent strain of authoritarian strategy prominent in today’s world.
Fr Thomas Hopko of blessed memory was talking about how relevant this was 15+ years ago, in terms of The Abolition of Man - which is a really difficult read, and tells the same story as the That Hideous Strength in essay form. Lewis was seeing all this in the works as early as the late 30s and early 40s. It's interesting that he had that particular intuition so early on.
I could have listened to them for 3 hours… it’s very good!
Finally got Annie on here! 🔥
I began watching this discussion and immediately stopped when Jonathan gave the spoiler alert regarding the 'Space Trilogy'(thanks for the heads up). I went back and listened to the trilogy on audiobook, and I'm so glad I did! What a fantastic story! Now, I'm back to finish the video... Thanks for making this video and for the insightful discussion! Good stuff!
Proud. Shine On, Annie & Jonathan!✨✨✨
Amazing conversation! Hope to see more female voices on the channel!
That was astounding. Great job Annie and Jonathan.
Loved it! I will definitely be listening more than once. Many many golden nuggets in this conversation!
Excellent discussion
(spoilers)
I just finished the trilogy myself. CS Lewis is a master of many things but three that stuck out to me were:
1) his ability to describe the subtle thought processes behind his characters (especially the dynamics between Jane and Mark).
2) his descriptions of Malacandra and Perelandra as unfallen worlds. To be honest I couldn't really fathom the idea of an unfallen world until I read those books, and they've really sparked a deep thirst for heaven.
3) The idea that the greatest thing in the universe would be to gaze upon the face of God was lost on me. It sounded like abstract or esoteric fluff that Christians would spout but not really mean in their hearts. The way Lewis describes the King and Queen, and Ransom in the third book really helped me understand, in some deep sense that I lack the words for, the significance of gazing upon the face of God.
Brilliant analysis, Annie.
51:45 mosaic vision and iconic thinking. 🙋🏼♂️
a sacramental understanding is so important
When I first read Lewis' view on gender and sex in 'Perelandra' I almost fell out of my chair. Mind-blowing.
Seems like it has finally started dear jonathan
Ur videos have been a great source of education and spiritual joy for me past few months
Thank u and god bless u for that
Stay safe brother
And my praise to you for what you have done
Genius
Both of you
And from some of your articulations
Mental giant you are
Amidst us chimps albeit😅❤
Lewis's Merlin is wonderful; best I've ever encountered.
I just finished all three of these books, they are all audiobooks on RUclips with some really great readers for those who drive a lot or what ever
Just really great stories, there was likely a million things I missed and seeing this conversation pop up today is really cool but yeah, great books
excellent discussion! thanks for shining lights on this very mysterious story :)
Excellent
Jonathan, you sweet and sensitive man. You've given sight back to the blind. You've given strength. God has taken notice.
Ive never heard it called the Ransom Trilogy. Always called it the Space Trilogy. That Hideous Strength is such a insightful description of "progressives"
I heard that the original title was The Cosmic Trilogy.
Space Trilogy seems to be a name given by people who didn't even make it out of the silent planet. As soon as they are cruising through the cosmos, there's a big long rant about how calling it 'space' is so dumb...
@sihollett I read all three books, still call it space trilogy. Everyone I know who has read all three books, call it space trilogy.
@@divadrelffehs i have all 3 books in one volume. The title is Cosmic Trilogy.
I've been reading Lewis with great love and admiration for him since I was Twenty. I'm now fifty-four and I'm now reading the Ransom Triology. What great timing. :-)
Thanks
Lots of interesting threads in this one. Some views I disagree with but im not sure if you were both just playing it safe. Thank you.
Interesting! I want to read the trilogy again now :)
Love you
48:25 what does she mean by “as modernist we tend to separate the thing with the meaning” ?
Great video!
1:01:21 - laughter exposes absurd and brings back soberty
1:02:27 - chaos, reality always is crashing back if you disorder yourself.
I know I'm late to this, but. . . I've always loved C.S Lewis--I actually read the first two books when I was about 11 years old (I'm a highschooler by the way). I recently finished "Till We Have Faces" and it's SO deep. Would love to get an analysis of it. That "inversion/flipping" symbolism about the order of the books and Dante' Divine Comedy. . . So fascinating. It's funny, I have the same icon of St. Thomas Aquinas that Annie does on the right.
Anyways. As it goes in The Last Battle: further up and further in. . .
It seems there could be a similar use of Father Christmas turning up in The Lion, Witch and Wardrobe at the turning point, as per Merlin in THS.
My mind explodes at the thought of the waters above mix and settle, and ultimately become the waters below. If you’ve ever experienced God and have turned away, wow, this will get you. The fractal symbolic-pattern is truly endless- the blessing that can become a curse, first sweet and then bitter.
You know Monks were saying there will be time when they say rock is wet and water is dry. People who say right is wrong and wrong is right. I was like who would believe that but know I see it with my own eyes .
Jonathan, symbolic analysis on Thumbelina please?!
Wow i really hope the both of you cast your pearls before the Peterson Academy👏
Thank you for the discussion, I enjoyed it also.
Question - Would the wizard be a Golum like character, but instead of being weak, powerful.
57:08 Well, Santa Claus appears in Narnia to give the kids weapons. So, noooo, Merlin appearing in That Hideous Strength didn't seem all that weird by comparison.
Michael Ward in his book 'Planet Narnia' writes about how every volume of the series revolves around one of the planets of the solar system 'The lion, the witch and the wardrobe' embodies and expresses the planet Jupiter ( magnanimity, festal joy, summertime ). The planet Jupiter itself has a big, red spot ( Santa? )
Santa Claus does not appear in Narnia - Father Christmas does!
@@sihollett That's just olde-timey Santa Claus. Everything before World War 1 was a weird primitive version of its modern self. Pharmacies sold cocaine back then and were called chemists, so most things had names we wouldn't recognize these days.
@@jerrysstories711 Santa Claus is old-timey Santa Claus. Father Christmas was an different character with a different symbolic purpose/symbology who had his looks (and name) taken by Santa, but very little of his symbology survives.
Lewis put jovial Father Christmas in his Jupiter book
@@sihollett Nah, the modern forms of most things are patchworks of a bunch of old stuff. The Wikipedia page on Santa Claus can give you the references, but modern dictionaries give Father Christmas, Santa Claus, St Nick names for the same character. I know CSL was born ages ago, but modern audience would call that character Santa Claus. Just like we call Y'shua by Jesus now.
Dr. Crawford is going to change the culture. A woman taking these ideas seriously without a hint of shame is very dangerous to the N.I.C.E.
What's the deal with the jarring commercials when listening to this on the Apple podcast app?
Been a few years since I read the trilogy. Who is the Scottish character who is in the group of the enlightened but who was not really a believer?
Andrew MacPhee. Ransom wants him there specifically because he's not a believer, IIRC (been a few years since I read it too, but I looked up the name), as the sceptic plays an important role.
“God always forgives, we men forgive sometimes, but nature never forgives. If you give her a slap, she will give you one. I believe that we have exploited nature too much.”
Pope Francis
Reading this through supernatural charitable lenses, Pope Francis is pointing at the very fact that we can't bend the nature of reality without getting hit back in the same proportion qe distort it.
Yea people give Francis a lot of flack for being too liberal and too worried about the environment, but he's not wrong here.
59:20 just like us: “what you meant for evil, God meant for good.”
Unsure if this relates properly to your discussion on "speed" but from Dante's encounter of God:
But already my desire and my will
were being turned like a wheel, all at one speed,
by the Love which moves the sun and the other stars.
Not sure but the idea of original unity reminds me of one that is linked to the Zohar and its explanation of creation. If I make sense to anyone I'd appreciate some clarity.
This was absolutely amazing. I've listened to That Hideous Strength from the original BBC reading about 3 times in my life. (I read The Great Divorce once a year- advice from my father when I was in my early 20s- and it's become a tradition) And my favorite work of Lewis is The Problem of Pain.
That being said. The parallels between what I hear from atheists that have spoken to Jonathan directly and the evil group in Strength is clear. That is why I hesitate when we talk about an "evolution" of religion. Yes, there was one, but the God of Abraham is clearly "other" and not from a human evolution at all. In Strength, Lewis modeled his evil group after the cliques in academia but I think it's deeper than that. Whenever man tries to create some god (collective ethics, a power that everyone centers around, some predetermined set of rules, etc) is ALWAYS has a demon behind it. Always. So when those atheists talk about trying to reform the LOGOs, as Jonathan very rightly calls it, to fit this weird new moral idea of "acceptance", it will destroy itself. It's literally a group worshiping a dead head. A dead mind. A twisted version of the Frankenstein monster.
Ask them it maybe the future but for how long?
Man…I just finished out of the silent planet and just started perelandra…gonna be a month b4 I can listen
There is an actual organization in Britain called NICE (The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence).
Someone who has lost a limb/or a function such as sight can participate on a higher level by transmuting that loss into going deeper via the other senses. That is what people on the margin want recognised. Be better with your language - yes, it can be a monster category but it is also the king or monk’s category. Recognise that beauty deeply and celebrate it and then perhaps those on the margin wouldn’t push so hard to be recognised and validated. There’s a difference between pity and empathy.
The most important fiction works for the next decades to come. ❤
"And lost be the day to us in which a measure hath not been danced. And false be every truth which hath not had laughter along with it!"-Nietzsche
We must see the difference between life giving laughter and the laughter of madness, like that of Nietzsche.
I've always understood that Lewis's use of e.g. Mars and Venus was astrological rather than Pagan. When you look at the Middle Ages, it's surprising how much Christians accepted and used astrology.
Astrology is very much a thing even among Moderns - Carl Sagan's 'Pale Blue Dot' is a popular piece of astrology: looking at the stars and inferring meaning for us. It's a very different kind of astrology to both the pagan/pomo Zodiac, and the astrology that the medievals/Lewis talk about.
I remember in Perelandra the idea of animals becoming like sapient life, and sapient life becoming like angels, etc. So I think that fits well with the idea of speeding ever more with God. Plus, what is the ultimate hell in Dante but being ever more frozen. Still.
Does the guy in the middle have blue eyes? (On the lizard)
Your point on how the demons are playing a role that is ultimately in service of God rings very true to me. Demons played a critical role in my addiction recovery.
"Yin and yang, male and female, strong and weak, rigid and tender, heaven and earth, light and darkness, thunder and lightning, cold and warmth, good and evil...the interplay of opposite principles constitutes the universe." ~ Confucius
That sounds like Heraclitus
As far as Merlin is concerned, I think that it goes back to to what Lewis says in the Abolition of Man that science and magic are genealogical brothers, both born out of a desire to subject nature to the will of man. That’s why at the beginning we aren’t sure which side of the fight he’s going to come down on. Then we come to see that Merlin aligns his interactions with nature with the higher order of God and spirituality. So, Merlin represents the natural consequences of what happens when you approach science detatched from the tao.
(Generally speaking, Lewis said that Hideous Strength was written to embody some of the things that he was talking about in the Abolition of Man.)
I forget where I read it, but someone said that priests are called Father because although they are celibate, their role mirrors the fatherhood of God, and they are called to exercise a very strong role of father to their flock. In fact, was it Taylor Marshall who said that?!
I've often thought that our society's fixation on gender is something like a culture-level childhood rebellion against what appears to be arbitrary authority.
I believe foucalt and nietzsche talk about this when they say that the catholic church set a hegemony. Maybe that hegemony was justified once and maybe it wasn't.. maybe a people gets the divine authority it deserves? Regardless, that hegemony because unjustifiable by the standards of the enlightenment, and some people feel inclined to rebel against its ghost, mostly in actions rather than articulation.
I like the idea of setting up a heirarchy of pagan symbols, ranging from something like God to Satan. The catholic church definitely got a little too high on it's own supply, and I struggle to imagine what a constantly fragmenting protestant congregation would do to avoid the extremes of fragmentation and total control. There's also the problem of a monotheist defining what's supposed to be an irreducible and singular God only in reference to polytheistic forces. Many less sophisticated Christians fall into the trap of "anything I don't agree with is a demon." As Jung said, the Psyche is pagan and the Soul is Catholic.
While I think this task is too much of an undertaking for any organization or person, I do think it's the answer to our moment of cultural crisis.
Just on the whole childhood rebellion, I do think that schools used to be the first authority for kids and many catholic schools had the hitting of children to make them behave for discipline, and then over time it became taboo, and reversed so teachers could not punish students anymore, and now the pendulum has swung so far adults have no authority and now adults are disciplined if they do not go along with imaginary thinking
It's strange I just finished that trilogy laat week. How odd that others are doing the same.
LOL me too
Same here
Merlin… between Druid and Christianity, control over nature, Logres, Pendragon, Arthur. Arthur is on Perelandra where Pendragon Ransom is going.
Even Merlin got baptised
Merlin seems a Moses figure to me and the conclusion on THS is Genesis in reverse, back through the flood and the gather/ dispersing of the animals back to the unity of the Garden. My wife and I just finished That Hideous Strength a couple days ago (my fourth reading in the last few years, her first). She hated it. Oh well.
In the Simarillion (Tolkien) - Ilúvatar (God) says to Melkor (would be like the Lucifer) that no matter what he does, at the end everything will be at service of the highest. Just as Jonathan said in the last part of the conversation about Merlin.
I should’ve read it by now, I ordered the book months ago. Spooky.
The third gender is “neuter”, which does not participate in generation. Yet another reason to learn Latin.
So happy to see That Hideous Strength getting attention. It's a borderline prophetic text given recent events.
Interesting to hear Pageau wrestling more with Lewis' portrayal of angels as beings beyond the 3rd dimension.
On the one hand, visions of the heavenly realm seem to be rendered spatially, at least once someone even measures the dimensions of objects using human units in the vision.
On the other hand, there is great danger in making any scientific hypothesis out of heavenly beings, we are warned not to put God to the test (experiment).
I see this in much the same way as evolution: I don't "believe in evolution," but if the way that God made man in his present state was partially through a process which looks like "natural selection," then who am I to argue? The specifics aren't given to us by the text, but the true meaning is, which is more important. If primates did or didn't descend from a common ancestor, our faith in God should not be shaken.
If visions of the heavenly realm represent a reality which exists "hyperspatially," then that would make a lot of sense. I know Jonathan is very intelligent, but I wonder if he understands how truly foreign hyperspaces are to us with 3-dimensional bodies, or how incredibly beyond us even a 4th dimensional creature would be. I know readers' hackles are going up now thinking of HP Lovecraft and Dr Strange, but these stories make a low-resolution cartoon of these physics principles.
Either way, our understanding is limited, and any mortal model of higher things is incorrect in an absolute sense. Focusing on the constituent elements of an angel's body is like trying to eat the rind of an orange. There are probably higher spatial dimensions, the "matter" which may or may not exist along these axes would be so foreign to us that we would not call it matter. It's a heaven-shaped hole in our postmodern cosmology, but then Outer Space was a heaven-shaped hole in modern cosmology, and look how that turned out.
I dont know how i feel about having Monks as a potential example for a 3rd gender. The whole point of celibacy is that of the tempering and taming of Hers or His natural impulses, for the sake of the Kingdom. Meaning that labor can only occur as long as the default gender is there to be wrestled with on the first place.
Why does Pageau never speak to anyone who can question and challenge him in his own area of expertise? (And I mean challenger in the best sense of the word- to get to a deeper understanding). For example, Mark Vernon is a scholar of Owen Barfield and an obvious person. But Pageau seems to just speak to people who just validate his current understanding /comfort zone of understanding. Or who he feels superior to, even. If he’s sincere and truly confident in his take on things, there would be more engaging with others as I mentioned ….
On the issue of gender, I disagree.
The idea of masculine and feminine come from biology.
If we were spiders feminine would mean something completely different.
It’s only because men tend to be more dominant in our species that we personify control as male and most other attributes we give to the father.
CS Lewis Preface to The Great Divorce:
"I beg readers to remember that this is a fantasy. It has of course-or I intended it to have-a moral. But the trans-mortal conditions are solely an imaginative supposal: they are not even a guess or a speculation at what may actually await us. The last thing I wish is to arouse factual curiosity about the details of the after-world."
Where does St Maximus the Confessor say that there are 3 genders?
Classical High School? Such a thing exists?
My question is how does all this information help anyone, other than traveling around and giving lectures to academic types how does any of this help the common man because to me it seems like just a bunch of puffed up words and back patting. For this channel to be so “christian” focused the actual teachings and examples set by Jesus seem to be absent yet those teachings and examples really do save the world.
Something else interesting in That Hideous Strength is how Lewis links Atlantis with Numenor, linking his story with Tolkien’s legend. He explicitly makes thus connection in the book’s introduction.
Ransom can be understood as a type for Tolkien, “the philologist.”
The Space Trilogy is not as deftly written as Narnia was. You can see Lewis develop as a writer over the three books. The third is definitely the best, yet not as good as any of the Narnia series.
One of the reasons Tolkien and Lewis grew apart eventually was over Tolkien’s criticism of Lewis melding pagan themes into his stories, clouding them.
Lewis had the maenads and Bacchus show up repeatedly in Narnia.. That’s incoherent at best in a Christian context.
That Lucy is met by a faun, a representation of Bacchus or Pan himself, when first entering Narnia, and then is taken to his home where she is drugged and almost abducted.. Well.
It’s a bit provocative, pushing the border of obscenity, questionable to say the least.
Having ego "people don't understand" while discussing best guesses about other's best guesses regarding things that are, for know, unknowable is an interesting but uninviting take.
I think being bothered by Lewis’ exploration of gender in a fictional sense is silly I think. The fundamental reality is not dual, but tri.
This is why the American School System hates Homeschooling.
A mule could be a third “gender”
Here's a rabbit hole for miracles:
Consider, that we can calculate exactly the possibility that the mass of the Moon will quantum-mechanically tunnel from its current orbit, to an orbit on the opposite side of planet Earth. The number is very small, but _it is not zero._ In a universe of sufficient extent (in terms of number of moons and duration), it will happen.
Consider then the miracles of Jesus and the age of the universe -- the universe _must be at least old enough and of sufficient extent_ to render the possibility of those miracles a probability instead.
Silly girls thinkin'of génital génération !!! I'm 70 we talked all this back in '65..
god has the cheat codes
I don't think the issue is just that people don't fit duilaity. It's that we don't like when people represent that duality as a whole in themselves. Like we think intersex people are wrong because they don't represent just one side. But if everything is representative of God and his duality, does that mean those who are dual in nature are just a more intimate rendition of his nature?
Mind you I'm not talking about trans people. I'm talking about biological inter sex people. People who have both parts in some way or another and were born that way.
I'm just curious how that fits?
Flannery O conner used a intersex person as a Christ figure in one of her short stories and I wonder if that's what she was tapping into.
I think the phenomena you refer to as "intersex" would have been understood as the multitude below, or more as chimera, than divine.
Those who transcend the duality do not represent this transcendence as the mixture of traits within themselves, but rather as a transcendence from these limited traits altogether. This is not a function of the body but the spirit.
@@OrchinX I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Aren't chimeras a forcefully made mixture that isn't natural? A false duality that was forced?
Intersex people were born with both parts they're not a forced duality.
And I believe the body represents the soul. After all that's what Pope John Paul taught in the theology of the body. Our body and soul are integrated far more then we realize.
I don't think intersex people are outside of the original binary of duality. I think they're just a new version of the fractal. Another way that the duality presents itself. It has nothing to do with transcendence of the soul. Because the soul can not transcend without a body. That's just not possible. If we could get to heaven without a body God wouldn't of given us one.
@@Ladyoffidelity14 People are born with all sorts of disabilities and illnesses because we live in a fallen world. In the next life people who are saved will have a transformed body, not the exact same body as in this life.
@@crystallogic2543 but that disability is still part of God's design for sanctification for that person. And that would mean it's still part of God's natural order, right?
Disablities are also not always bad, some mutations have a lot of advantages when the person is placed in the right nitch.
That's where I guess I'm confused about a lot of this?
@@Ladyoffidelity14 John 9 and Pageau's Pentecost for a Zombie Apocalypse speech relate to this. Definitely God can turn bad into good. And people who aren't able to sexually fulfill a marriage can either dedicate themselves to God and others in a greater manner, or perhaps together in a abnormal marriage?
But it takes striving for God as the highest and work to make the multitude of individual situations work out. And we shouldn't idolize the exceptions as is the sin of our age.
C.S.Lewis Orthodoxy was so well hidden that he himself didn't know he was Orthodox. However, Chesterton is more insightful.
Maybe the third gender, is no gender ~ like the angels ~
Thumbs down because the conversation ended. This should have kept going forever.
What I have done for you can not be paid with enough gold. I am a poet that writes prose to be understood better, all my work is poetry. It is necessary that everything I say is understood. Emergency, lives are being lost while i am talking and the greatest knowledge of all time is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Future generations would understand the atheist logical fallacy, so why don't you? If you understand you would know what i expect from you if something happens to me and I die. I am suffering the most severe and devastating censorship in history in a social media era for many years trying to save lives with knowledge, and when they are told they don't care. I hope for God's sake to be understood. To end the war in Ukraine the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy has to be news. To overcome a censorship the information that is prohibited has to be shared to be known. You choose. Life is a choice. Life is free will, free will is an uncaused cause of an infinite nature, God.
Con-artist.
yep, there are different dog species
like golden retrievers. and pugs. and pitbulls
not all dogs are created equal. same for humans.